Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on March 26, 2014, 12:29:03 PM
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http://www.globalgolfpost.com/blog/royal-ancient-club-moves-toward-female-membership/?utm_campaign=3-26%20reminder&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=R%26A%20blog
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and only 96 years after women got the vote in Britain. Who said these guys weren't forward thinkers....
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I dislike the tenor around discussion around this R&A members issue. The R&A is a private club its membership issues should not be of public concern. Also if the R&A allow women will the St. Rule have to allow men? The clubs system in St. Andrews is beyond me but there seams to be less caring about the single gender clubs there as there is a mix of strong men's and women's clubs and this context is lost in most discussions about this issue.
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Ben,
Not sure if you realize it, but the R&A is a bit more than a private mens club. Once they started operating in the broader public domain they became fair game for public criticism.
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Ben,
Not sure if you realize it, but the R&A is a bit more than a private mens club. Once they started operating in the broader public domaine they became fair game for public criticism.
Think Shoal Creek and the Masters for US examples.
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I understand where the R&A sits in the world of golf. But the R&A for me is two different things one of them is as a ruling body the other as a private club. There is some overlap of course but I see it as a private club unless when organizing championships or when it makes the rules. Which for the championships it only handles the men's side of the competition. I am in no way arguing for segregation but I am trying to give a more complete picture than the one given by traditional commentators who have not had the privilege of spending time in St. Andrews to understand the club system there. Which is run on gender segregated clubs. It is the context of the different way that the clubs cooperate and play matches against each other. Which make the town club system very different than any other golfing environment I have ever seen or heard about. It is in this light that my earlier comments emanate from. I hope this makes my point more clear to the reader.
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Ben a senior R&A member was saying the other day of course R&A Ltd runs golf but all the committees are run by R&AGC of StA members. The seperation is more to do with personal liability for club debts. The feeling is it's about clearing Dawson's desk before he retires and is linked to the Olympics as well.
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My only question is, will the nonagenarians who have lockers in the Big Room be able to dress and undress in front of the new Lady Members?
Bob
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My only question is, will the nonagenarians who have lockers in the Big Room be able to dress and undress in front of the new Lady Members?
Bob
What do you think? ;D
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this vote is also Thursday. No polling data. Odds?
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Tommy,
The writer reports as follows.
The R&A expect comfortably in excess of 300 members to attend the September business meeting where a two-thirds majority will be needed to make the historic change. That there is no provision for proxy or postal votes may worry some of the more progressive members who fear that it is the locals, the club habitués, who are the keener to stay with the status quo. - See more at: http://www.globalgolfpost.com/blog/royal-ancient-club-moves-toward-female-membership/?
He is either deaf or just a lousy writer.
The vote is not to be for the 300 or so in attendance but ballots have been sent around the world.
I sent mine in a couple of weeks ago.
Bob
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8) is there a Tattenham Corner in the future for the Suffragettes?
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2013/5/24/1369426954300/Emily-Davison-010.jpg)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/26/emily-davison-suffragette-death-derby-1913
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Bob of course they did originally opt for a personal ballot then changed to postal in response to disenfranchising most of the membership!
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From The Scotsman:
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/royal-and-ancient-set-to-vote-on-women-members-1-3544964
From Golf's 2020 Vision, the HSBC Report:
"The game is continuing to grow in popularity, broadening its international base, building new audiences and recruiting new players, in new markets, but needs to keep modernising to stay in touch with the times. For some in the game, this will be a challenge. But the only thing worse than change is irrelevance."
Lyne
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A good piece from the Daily Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11104126/Lets-not-demonise-all-men-only-clubs.html
Bob
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A good piece from the Daily Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11104126/Lets-not-demonise-all-men-only-clubs.html
Bob
The vote is yes. Well done to the R&A.
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And comfortably. 85% voted yes
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Is this likely to have any impact (through say precedent/embarrassment) on the likes of Muirfield, Troon, Sandwich, etc?
Indeed, I wonder how many of the 85% who voted 'yes' also happen to be members of 'men only' clubs?
atb
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Thomas I'd say no, the R&A represent the game and being men only was untenable. Private clubs are different, the test will be how much Sandwich, Troon and Muirfield want the Open in the future.
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The Today Programme this morning on R4 said The Honourable Co of Gentlepersons and RSG were actively looking at this but Troon wasn't. They didn't cite their sources and I think Troon already have a Ladies Club with access rights.
If someone cares to offer me reasonable odds, I'll wager £100 each on the first two finding a way round this within 15 years. That is they will agree to admitt women members , form a Women's club or similar. I've spoken to quite a number of peple who think this vote will make no difference at all to the clubs, so I say to them what odds will you offer for easy money? If they're that confident 1:10 seems reasonable?
RSG are supposed to be on guard for a 2019 return if Portrush can be ready in time. The landslide on this can't have helped thier cause.
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What's the point of belonging to a club if there are no girls there to hit on? Voting to allow women is the biggest duh move of the century.
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What's the point of belonging to a club if there are no girls there to hit on? Voting to allow women is the biggest duh move of the century.
Tell that to our old farts who insist on continuing the male only men's grill at my club. I suggested to my spouse that the angry women utilize the Sabine trick of withholding sex. She said, "What would be the point?"
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I still can't quite figure out why anybody who is not a member of the R&A cares about the membership policy. Strange that, but it seems many people can't help poking their noses...
Ciao
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The vote is yes. Well done to the R&A.
Not sure this is the way I'd characterize it. More like deciding to throw out the stagnant bath-water and not the baby with it.
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http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/18/royal-and-ancient-golf-club-women-ban
"This is a very important and positive day in the history of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club," said Dawson.
Lyne
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-18/st-andrews-to-permit-female-golfers-after-club-votes.html
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I still can't quite figure out why anybody who is not a member of the R&A cares about the membership policy. Strange that, but it seems many people can't help poking their noses...
Ciao
I'll say it agian. When the Royal and Ancient and the R&A split the issue was fudged. Same premises, same Chief Executive and many of the members the same. Yet one is the governing body for Women and the other wouldn't have them as members.
Because of the mess they found themselves in they had two choices. Move the Adminsitration body out of the building, insist it renamed itself and re drew it's constitution so they had no more influence on it, or admitt Women Members. They chose the latter.
I believe it was a matter of public concern.
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Spangles
Tish tosh. You are making mountains out of molehills that exist only in theory. Alas, it matter not. You will carry with your day with no changes and so will I.
Ciao
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Look what the German press ran today:
http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/bild-992485-752161.html
I'll translate the by-line for you: "18th hole of the club in St Andrews: soon women will be putting here as well."
So this is not a molehill! ;-)
Ulrich
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Now that Dawson has pledged to fast-track a fire hose of estrogen into the R&A, I made an appointment with the local butcher and expect to be a post-op tranny by Christmas. Do you think Huntley will sponsor me?
What a strange country Scotland, the same day you vote to remain tied to a socialistic mess, the most cherished golfing society on the planet unties itself from tradition and turns its f*cking grill room into a sewing circle.
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"What a strange country Scotland, the same day you vote to remain tied to a socialistic mess"
Gib -
You must not have gotten the memo. The "Yes" voters wanted to leave the UK because it was not socialistic enough. ;)
DT
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I wonder if Dawson has called Condi Rice yet?
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"What a strange country Scotland, the same day you vote to remain tied to a socialistic mess"
Gib -
You must not have gotten the memo. The "Yes" voters wanted to leave the UK because it was not socialistic enough. ;)
DT
And in many ways the UK is less socialist than the US, at least since Maggie Thatcher's days when she privatized many assets. Airports, passenger rail lines, the lottery, etc. are all privately owned, unlike in the US.
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"What a strange country Scotland, the same day you vote to remain tied to a socialistic mess"
Gib -
You must not have gotten the memo. The "Yes" voters wanted to leave the UK because it was not socialistic enough. ;)
DT
Absolutely spot on. The vast majority of Yes voters I heard interviewed had in common that they didn't want to be governed by the Tories.
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Well now.
Move the heat-lamps on to Troon, Muirfield, and RStGeorge
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Muirfield has already announced it is starting a consultation exercise among members as to whether it should admit women.
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Look what the German press ran today:
http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/bild-992485-752161.html
I'll translate the by-line for you: "18th hole of the club in St Andrews: soon women will be putting here as well."
So this is not a molehill! ;-)
Ulrich
Women have been playing the Old Course for decades, but not playing (or drinking) gin in the clubhouse!
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My God, it's about time. They finally got it right.
There are about 275 Americans that are members of the R & A and a small subsection of this group are charged with making recommendations to the Membership Committee for new American members. I was approached in 2004 by an American member at the US Amateur at Winged Foot and was asked if I was interested and if so he would submit my name. I'm a public course player and I am loyal to my friends. It is customary and a true courtesy to invite the outgoing USGA president to be a member. Judy Bell was never offered that courtesy and Judy is a long time friend and Hall of Fame administrator and one of the great people in the game. I told the gentleman thank you but I was not interested because Judy was slighted. I still sleep good at night with no regrets during the day.
Also, concerning ANGC granting membership to 2 women a short time ago, they were not the first women to be offered a jacket. A very prominent lady was offered membership back in the 90's and she turned it down. I got this info from 2 members, one of which is now deceased, the other is still active in the game. These two gentlemen were not the type to blow smoke up my ass. Besides, there were rumours of this floating around the inner circles anyway.
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I liked this article and quotes from one who has and is there among the Euro and GB elites:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/golf/29228010 (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/golf/29228010)
Who are the first candidates for membership status? I suppose Laura Davis and Catriona Matthew are prime choices. Are there other likely early picks? Would it be extended to Euro lady golfers, with the most logical being Anika Sorenstam? Or, would they go for the puffery of a high profile political-corporate name as did the example of ANGC?
Interesting thoughts and back story, Pete...
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If they have any sense, one of the offers goes to Catherine Zeta Jones.
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I cannot see any professionals being elected. I'd have a pound on Pam Benka for starters. Carol Caldwell is a possibility as is Linda Bayman and the St Andrews University chancellor. Red hot tip Hazel Irvine the BBC commentator.
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If they have any sense, one of the offers goes to Catherine Zeta Jones.
Now we're talking: Who will be the first female member of the R&A?
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Mark, certainly your insight suggests a more keen understanding of the prevailing club member conversations. But, looking at the public relations event platform upon which the decision has been staged, and given Gib's characterization of a rapid infusion of estrogen being injected into the board room via a fire hose, wouldn't they be wasting the public relations momentum if they didn't include a few of the more popular and internationally known female golfer names either in conjunction with or versus the insider administrator types, who actually may be more suited to assisting in conducting the actual business decisions of the R&A?
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Adam,
OMFG, I can hear Paddy Hamner's ghost, clanking his chains clear across the pond. You damned limeys and pipe bowers are supposed be upholding tradition, not surrendering like the French Army to a lesbian with a pea shooter. Pretty soon Muirfield will be serving gin fizzes with an umbrella.
Why don't you Brits just get it the f*ck over with and replace the Union Jack with a pair of lace panties and a pink parasol?
Be warned, the Olympic Club was never the same again after the Men's Grill contracted incurable vaginal fungus. It started with City Attorney Louise Renne (imagine Hillary Clinton in perpetual PMS) trying to ramrod her way into the Bohemian Club - but, finding her broomstick was not sharp enough to penetrate the sphincter of the big boys - decided to embarrass the Olympic Club before and during the 1987 Open.
Never mind that Louise and her husband were members of S.F.G.C. - a club at the time with no blacks, Jews and certainly no Armenians - but (surprise. . . . .), having less than 400 members exempts them from non-discrimination statues. It remains so today.
Convenient timing as she was also running for mayor, dontcha think? Imagine that, a hypocritical attorney misusing a bizarre interpretation of the law for her own gain . . . . . . .
Sometimes guys want to be with other guys - and not have to watch our manners and language, or observe every single chickenshit nicety because women are born offended. I think the goal of all these insane media liberals is to turn the world into some kind of twisted experiment in androgyny. They already treat little boys in school like defective girls, so I guess this is kind of horseshit is inevitable.
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Gib,
That's why you need to beat them at their own game. They are upset that these clubs don't have women members. Ok. Fair enough. Lets admit women members. But let's make sure they're hot. Done. Case closed. Move on. Nothing to see here. Channel your inner Kung Fu, Grasshopper, and use their strength against them. Turn the outrage on its head and blow their minds.
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Who are the first candidates for membership status? I suppose Laura Davis and Catriona Matthew are prime choices. Are there other likely early picks?
Wouldn't it be proper form to offer the first membership to ER II?
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My only question is, will the nonagenarians who have lockers in the Big Room be able to dress and undress in front of the new Lady Members?
Bob
Bob, if they're truly Ladies wouldn't they look the other way?
Pardon me but I'm chuckling at the image of you dropping trou in front of the ladies - what we called a "Chinese boxer rebellion" around the old frat house.
Cheers,
Mike
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Gib,
You really should spend more time with women that are actually used to not being treated as ornaments. You'd be shocked to discover that here in the 21st century these women are not in the slightest bit offended by the sort of language which would seemingly have your petticoated princesses passing out aplenty.
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Paul,
While I'm with you in spirit, I believe that Gib has his tongue planted firmly in cheek in this instance...
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Paul,
While I'm with you in spirit, I believe that Gib has his tongue planted firmly in cheek in this instance...
Gib's motto: never let an opportunity for a good rant get by you! ;D
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Spangles
Tish tosh. You are making mountains out of molehills that exist only in theory. Alas, it matter not. You will carry with your day with no changes and so will I.
Ciao
I'm pleased your day went unchanged, mine was rather good actually as this news put a smile on my face. Today I go to a wedding where I will see the kinda folks who meet me every few years and when it gets quiet I'll see them searching their memory banks for what they know about me so they can revive the conversation when a lull occurs. Their face will betray a process something like "Tony likes...think, think...genocide? No...no ...Golf, thats it. Tony's a Golfer, let's move on". They are no loss really and it wil take more than Thursday's decision to change thier minds.
But it does mean one less thing for Polilticians to sound off about, something that has been happening increasingly frequently recently. This year the spending on sport was reviewed and Golf was a big loser despite the last few years having an unprecedented no of British Golfers as No1. A friend of mine's daughter is an England 'Cadette' and he wil explain to you how the funding for her trianing has been affected. So because of Golf being un PC, somone I know has been directly affected.
Thursdays decision was thankfully by a landslide. The repercussions wil follow and work through golf and I'm all for them.
Carry on with your day, mine's going to be fine thanks.
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I would even submit that women would clean up the shithouse and get every poorly behaving male either on line or thrown out and do the club a huge service in the process.
That being said, whenever I hear the "fraternity" argument I wonder why it never takes gays into account. Maybe in those circles they assume homosexuality is something "we don't have here".
Ulrich
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Brian,
are you're saying gay guys aren't excluded, because they wouldn't feel comfortable in a "frat setting" anyway, so they wouldn't join? That's a good argument, but the same goes for women. Open up the club for them and if they're not comfortable in a frat setting, they won't join anyway.
So in my mind the "fraternity argument" must consider women as well as gays as well as other people with limited means and from a different background. To single out one group with the argument "they're all too different", while other groups are just as different, but not singled out - well, that is dangerously backwards.
Ulrich
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Unfortunately Sheehy, that is the crux of the argument. What? You want to hang exclusively with males in that building? You must be a dirt bag who hates women, doesn't want women to succeed and will at every opportunity stamp women down. Oh yes, and the ole, well its confusing so the club should allow women just so we can be sure about...wait a minute...about what? The rules of golf? Its not as if folks are running around making up anti-women rules. The entire deal is preposterous. Still, the members did what they want, so that is that.
Spangles - I could care less about public funding for golf. Please let me keep my tax money so I can spend it as I please rather than the government trying socially engineer yet more tripe. If your best argument is some girl lost funding to play a game you are not going to garner much sympathy from me. Let the parents pay if they want little Joey or Jane to grow up to be big and strong. I am having enough difficulty trying stump up the money to educate my daughter let alone worry about how to fund little Jane's handicap reduction. Jeepers, liberals do come out with some doozies :D.
Ciao
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This argument is frequently used by the authorities against building new golf courses in Germany. Land is so scarce that any "exclusionary" use is not going to fly.
Ulrich
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Unfortunately Sheehy, that is the crux of the argument. What? You want to hang exclusively with males in that building? You must be a dirt bag who hates women, doesn't want women to succeed and will at every opportunity stamp women down. Oh yes, and the ole, well its confusing so the club should allow women just so we can be sure about...wait a minute...about what? The rules of golf? Its not as if folks are running around making up anti-women rules. The entire deal is preposterous. Still, the members did what they want, so that is that.
Spangles - I could care less about public funding for golf. Please let me keep my tax money so I can spend it as I please rather than the government trying socially engineer yet more tripe. If your best argument is some girl lost funding to play a game you are not going to garner much sympathy from me. Let the parents pay if they want little Joey or Jane to grow up to be big and strong. I am having enough difficulty trying stump up the money to educate my daughter let alone worry about how to fund little Jane's handicap reduction. Jeepers, liberals do come out with some doozies :D.
Ciao
On a level of freedom to associate with whomever you wish, and freedom to form associations and organizations that have a POV and expression of that point of view, including a private place to practice their beliefs and traditions, I can agree with the sentiment of your first paragraph Sean, on that purely ideological level. But, we aren't really living in that world anymore. There are too many competing sectors of population desiring their shot at equality of opportunity. Perhaps the view by those (women) excluded from old bastions of male only clubs and organizations isn't so much that the seek to inject a dose of estrogen and female culture to ruin the old men's day so much as it is viewed as an enclave where too many influential economic and social decisions are taken in isolation by a generally elite class of movers and shakers, excluding their 'opportunity' to be heard and socialized (small 's') from the get-go of a perspective of economic and socio-political formations; not change the rules of golf to some sort of non-existent exclusively singular female perspective.
Women are the majority of humans on the planet, BTW.
While I don't see the second paragraph as quite relevant to the issue of ladies in the R&A drawing room, if we are talking about public funding for equal sporting participation opportunity for women or minorities, or the pubic who can't afford participation in general; I am much in favor of reasonable public expenditure to promote healthy sport and recreation, including building of facilities from golf courses to soccer and baseball fields, and funding within the public ability decided by the public via referendum and their elected representatives to craft said balanced spending and taxing policy. Let the public decide if spending for such has become excessive. The alternative to public funding on a community or school level to extend recreational and organized sporting participation is a horrifying scenario of idle youth with nothing but trouble to engage. It is bad enough as it is with the current balance of funding - and in areas, austerity to cut such public funding for activities and facilities. Some of your money or assets are always going to be taxed in one manner or other in the world we will occupy for our lifetimes. That is a reality. One way or the other, a bigger entity that you will separate you from some of all of your money. It might be unbalanced and unchecked corporate methods to fix prices, buy advantageous policy and law, and hoard resources, or it may be one form of government or ruling class from dictator to royal that will separate you from your money. I favor supporting public elective policy formation to decide where and to what greater good said confiscated money or assets are doled out, not some conservative notion that is the naive belief that still in our times, we can all just be perturbed that we can't just decide on our own individual selves when, how and if our taxes are spent. From girls golf, to public recreational facilities including municipal public golf courses balanced with private enterprise initiatives, a modern day reality is one that seeks balance of those interests.
If the all male exclusive traditions and desires to be left alone among the male bastion would have persisted at R&A, fine - that is their right IMHO. Just withdraw any and all public supporting services from security to sewer and water and all manner of public resources utilized to prop up their traditions and high profile activities.
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''I could care less about public funding for golf. Please let me keep my tax money so I can spend it as I please rather than the government trying socially engineer yet more tripe. If your best argument is some girl lost funding to play a game you are not going to garner much sympathy from me. Let the parents pay if they want little Joey or Jane to grow up to be big and strong. I am having enough difficulty trying stump up the money to educate my daughter let alone worry about how to fund little Jane's handicap reduction. Jeepers, liberals do come out with some doozies Cheesy.''
+1
http://www.ladiesgolfclub.com/ wow 90 years ago a group of woman started a club, who would of thunk it. Regressives ::)
''horrifying scenario of idle youth with nothing but trouble to engage.''
Lack of youths working.
''From girls golf, to public recreational facilities including municipal public golf courses balanced with private enterprise initiatives, a modern day reality is one that seeks balance of those interests.''
Gov't created woman's golf? My mom's been playing for 55 years and a daughter of a plumber. Oh yeah, society has really gotten better with those regressive policies. Privately owned public courses have to now compete with muni's, and many of the privately owned public courses green fees are less than the muni's.
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Once again, we are confusing the rights of association of truly private clubs with clubs involved in events of the public at large-i.e. The Open Championship. If the Honourable golfers at Muirfield choose to forgo being in the rota and all the spoils that are associated with it, they will be free to remain a pure sausage fest. My money's against them taking this course of action.
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Muirfield is renting their course out for a tournament. If people boycotted watching Open's at Muirfield on TV and in person then the R&A would most likely not hold them there. That's how private property and association work in a FREE society. The gallery/TV viewership is the market.
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Gents,
Despite us being polar opposites in many ways, I actually have a lot of time for Gib and his self perpetuating diatribes. Out of deference I didn't include any gauche smiley faces or such like. Perhaps I should have. ;D :-*
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Jud a good mate is a Muirfield member, they consider the club a gentleman's club first and golf club second. It will be a big surprise if they vote to accept lady members.
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Jud a good mate is a Muirfield member, they consider the club a gentleman's club first and golf club second. It will be a big surprise if they vote to accept lady members.
If that is the case then I am guessing that they have seen their last Open Championship in 2014. It is going to be increasingly hard for the R&A to continue to hold events at male only golf clubs. The PGA tour and USGA stopped doing so years ago, ANGC has female members so that leaves The Open Championship as the last bastion.
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Jud a good mate is a Muirfield member, they consider the club a gentleman's club first and golf club second. It will be a big surprise if they vote to accept lady members.
That's great..Keep the clubhouse as the gentleman's club and open the golf course to the public 8)
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The gallery/TV viewership is the market.
Sponsors are also the market. Rumours are that sponsors, like HSBC, were one of the reasons for the R&A to hold this vote in the first place. If sponsoring the Open Championship negatively impacts the reputation of a company then that economically impacts the value of The Open Championship.
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Muirfield is renting their course out for a tournament. If people boycotted watching Open's at Muirfield on TV and in person then the R&A would most likely not hold them there. That's how private property and association work in a FREE society. The gallery/TV viewership is the market.
IN fact it's simpler than that. The major sponsor HSBC has let it be known publicly that this issue is a 'problem' for them. Money talking.
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How long, maybe there already, before sponsors/organisers/clubs/TV cotton on the possible benefits or economies of scale in sponsoring back-to-back events at the same venue?
Or how long before events are still of one week/4-day duration but half the field is male and half is female (say playing say 3 ladies tee times, then 3 men's, then 3 ladies etc etc., 50% cut after 2 days).
Lots of possibilities.
atb
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Mark,
It'll be a bigger surprise if they choose to leave the Open rota, which public pressure will eventually force if they vote to keep the status quo.
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If you believe the members there is a degree of arm twisting from St Andrews as the pros love Muirfield but the club doesn't really want the disruption.
Sandwich appear to be going gooey towards the girls as losing the Open to Princes would be difficult to swallow. The lady members within 200 years now looks to be within 200 days!
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Isn't the argument supposed to be that these clubs have the right to choose with whom they associate? Well, the R&A members have apparently chosen to associate with female members. And it wasn't decided by the liberal media, but by 85% of the voting members. So why is it that some of you are complaining? Aren't you the same ones who are always saying that these clubs' policies are no one else's business?
The thread reminds me of the scene from the Little Rascals made (more) famous by REO Speedwagon:
Darla: "Alfalfa, will you swing me before we have lunch?"
Alfalfa: "Sure, Darla."
Spanky: "Say, Romeo. What about your promise to the He-Man-Woman-Haters-Club?"
Alfalfa: "I'm sorry, Spanky. I've got to live my own life."
The R&A is playing the role of Alfalfa, much to the chagrin of some of the Spankys on this site.
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David - Touche. Well said.
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One of my quirks is that I love reading the obituries in the The Telegraph.
Today's issue gives much space to the Duchess of Devonshire.
The penultimate parargraph is as follows; I guess she would have voted NO if a member of the R&A
"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs; hotel coat-hangers; and drivers who slow down to go over cattle grids. She regretted the passing of brogues, the custom of mourning, telegrams, the 1662 Prayer Book, pinafores for little boys and Elvis Presley (“the greatest entertainer ever to walk on a stage”)."
Bob
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That is fantastic.
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"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs...
For just the briefest of moments, I thought:
Isn't that redundant?
But then the 21st Century kicked in, and I was back to disliking many, many things (not including "women who want to join men's clubs," with whose aspirations I sympathize, even as I would defend to the end the men's right to have their own club and the women's right to have their own) ...
I would love to see architects' ideas for a design of a golf course to be played by women only.
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One of my quirks is that I love reading the obituries in the The Telegraph.
Today's issue gives much space to the Duchess of Devonshire.
The penultimate parargraph is as follows; I guess she would have voted NO if a member of the R&A
"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs; hotel coat-hangers; and drivers who slow down to go over cattle grids. She regretted the passing of brogues, the custom of mourning, telegrams, the 1662 Prayer Book, pinafores for little boys and Elvis Presley (“the greatest entertainer ever to walk on a stage”)."
Bob
Bob --
What a terrific obit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11118801/Dowager-Duchess-of-Devonshire-obituary.html). Excerpts from it will appear in my column.
Here's another passage I loved:
Debo took refuge in quaintly odd pursuits. Another sister, Jessica (“Decca”) Mitford, described her spending “silent hours in the chicken house learning to do an exact imitation of the look of pained concentration that comes over a hen’s face when it is laying an egg, and each morning she methodically checked over and listed in a notebook the stillbirths reported in the vital statistics columns of The Times”.
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One of my quirks is that I love reading the obituries in the The Telegraph.
Today's issue gives much space to the Duchess of Devonshire.
The penultimate parargraph is as follows; I guess she would have voted NO if a member of the R&A
"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs; hotel coat-hangers; and drivers who slow down to go over cattle grids. She regretted the passing of brogues, the custom of mourning, telegrams, the 1662 Prayer Book, pinafores for little boys and Elvis Presley (“the greatest entertainer ever to walk on a stage”)."
Bob
Bob --
What a terrific obit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11118801/Dowager-Duchess-of-Devonshire-obituary.html). Excerpts from it will appear in my column.
Here's another passage I loved:
Debo took refuge in quaintly odd pursuits. Another sister, Jessica (“Decca”) Mitford, described her spending “silent hours in the chicken house learning to do an exact imitation of the look of pained concentration that comes over a hen’s face when it is laying an egg, and each morning she methodically checked over and listed in a notebook the stillbirths reported in the vital statistics columns of The Times”.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through...
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(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/9/10/1284132816815/The-duchess-with-her-belo-006.jpg)
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Isn't the argument supposed to be that these clubs have the right to choose with whom they associate? Well, the R&A members have apparently chosen to associate with female members. And it wasn't decided by the liberal media, but by 85% of the voting members. So why is it that some of you are complaining? Aren't you the same ones who are always saying that these clubs' policies are no one else's business?
They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
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They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
If this were actually true, it'd be interesting. But is it actually true?
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They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
If this were actually true, it'd be interesting. But is it actually true?
I very much doubt it as influential as he is Mr. Dawson is an employee of the club and there are many members of the R&A better connected in the real world who would not take kindly to been told how to vote.
Jon
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One of my quirks is that I love reading the obituries in the The Telegraph.
Today's issue gives much space to the Duchess of Devonshire.
The penultimate parargraph is as follows; I guess she would have voted NO if a member of the R&A
"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs; hotel coat-hangers; and drivers who slow down to go over cattle grids. She regretted the passing of brogues, the custom of mourning, telegrams, the 1662 Prayer Book, pinafores for little boys and Elvis Presley (“the greatest entertainer ever to walk on a stage”)."
Bob
Bob --
What a terrific obit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11118801/Dowager-Duchess-of-Devonshire-obituary.html). Excerpts from it will appear in my column.
Here's another passage I loved:
Debo took refuge in quaintly odd pursuits. Another sister, Jessica (“Decca”) Mitford, described her spending “silent hours in the chicken house learning to do an exact imitation of the look of pained concentration that comes over a hen’s face when it is laying an egg, and each morning she methodically checked over and listed in a notebook the stillbirths reported in the vital statistics columns of The Times”.
And her insight on consultants is wonderful:
On the modern fashion for hiring business consultants, she wryly observed: “He arrives from London, first class on the train… Most probably he has never been this far north, so the geography and the ways of the locals have to be explained, all taking his valuable time. After a suitable pause of a few weeks (he is very busy being consulted) a beautiful book arrives, telling you what you spent the day telling him.”
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Isn't the argument supposed to be that these clubs have the right to choose with whom they associate? Well, the R&A members have apparently chosen to associate with female members. And it wasn't decided by the liberal media, but by 85% of the voting members. So why is it that some of you are complaining? Aren't you the same ones who are always saying that these clubs' policies are no one else's business?
They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
Carson,
You have to be kidding.
Bob
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Carson,
You have to be kidding.
Bob
Well that settles that, then.
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And there's this nugget:
"She dealt heroically with her husband’s philandering nature and his weakness for alcohol, and the marriage was a happy one."
His was, at least.
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Gib,
That's why you need to beat them at their own game. They are upset that these clubs don't have women members. Ok. Fair enough. Lets admit women members. But let's make sure they're hot. Done. Case closed. Move on. Nothing to see here. Channel your inner Kung Fu, Grasshopper, and use their strength against them. Turn the outrage on its head and blow their minds.
That's about the only way I see Butler National ever admitting women: give memberships to all the hottest strippers and porn stars in town and call it a day. It's actually sort of genius.
They'd still have to wear a sport coat to lunch, if nothing else....
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Carlson - who was your source for that nugget, the person who told you Father Christmas still exists?
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Carlson - who was your source for that nugget, the person who told you Father Christmas still exists?
Say it ain't so Mark. :'(
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They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
If this were actually true, it'd be interesting. But is it actually true?
Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I've been not really following the thread.
However, I was told this (first-hand) by a member of the R&A.
The writing was on the wall by the media and general public opinion. Let's take a step back and look at this objectively. Do you really think the R&A would have made their vote public before the vote if they did not know beyond a shadow of doubt that the vote would be returned as a majority "YES"?
I feel we are all intelligent here.
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This is an old thread but I was bit confused that someone on GCA didn't pick up on a couple of tidbits that I had offered and no onr seemed interested in making some sort of comment.
Whatever-----
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This is an old thread but I was bit confused that someone on GCA didn't pick up on a couple of tidbits that I had offered and no onr seemed interested in making some sort of comment.
Whatever-----
I picked up on them but assumed you shared all of the information you were prepared to share. If that's not the case, . . .
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Carl
What's your question? If I can give you an answer without putting someone in a compromising postion , I will.
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They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
st-hand) by a member of the R&A.
The writing was on the wall by the media and general public opinion. Let's take a step back and look at this objectively. Do you really think the R&A would have made their vote public before the vote if they did not know beyond a shadow of doubt that the vote would be returned as a majority "YES"?
I feel we are all intelligent here.
The canard that members were in danger of being expelled from membership for an anti vote is utter nonsense.
Bob
Carson
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Carl
What's your question? If I can give you an answer without putting someone in a compromising postion , I will.
Well, I was curious about what "promienent lady" was offered and turned down an ANGC membership in the 90's.
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Carl
Since she is still kicken' and active behind the scenes, I'll say this --she's a long time friend, has a history of great play with many successes and she is a world class shopper.
I know that's not what you wanted but that's all I can give you.
If you dig deep enough and ask the right people, you don't need me.
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They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
st-hand) by a member of the R&A.
The writing was on the wall by the media and general public opinion. Let's take a step back and look at this objectively. Do you really think the R&A would have made their vote public before the vote if they did not know beyond a shadow of doubt that the vote would be returned as a majority "YES"?
I feel we are all intelligent here.
The canard that members were in danger of being expelled from membership for an anti vote is utter nonsense.
Bob
Carson
I'll be sure and tell the member your opinion....no not really. :-) We will just go about our lives.
As to the word Canard. Good pull. I am a pilot, and your sentence made no sense so I looked the definition up.
ca·nard
kəˈnär(d)/Submit
noun
1.
an unfounded rumor or story.
"the old canard that LA is a cultural wasteland"
2.
a small winglike projection attached to an aircraft forward of the main wing to provide extra stability or control, sometimes replacing the tail.
As an unfounded story...I am only saying what a member told me first-hand. If you choose to not believe it; then so be it.
The Queen of Spain once thought the Earth was flat.
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Carson,
As a member of the R&A I am only trying to tell you that your source must have been on the sauce to have come up with the story.
Bob
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Carl
Since she is still kicken' and active behind the scenes, I'll say this --she's a long time friend, has a history of great play with many successes and she is a world class shopper.
I know that's not what you wanted but that's all I can give you.
If you dig deep enough and ask the right people, you don't need me.
I understand the hesitation to say more. I only asked because you seemed to be inviting questions about your earlier post; I don't care enough to go looking for the anwer.
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Carson,
As a member of the R&A I am only trying to tell you that your source must have been on the sauce to have come up with the story.
Bob
Maybe SHE was... :-)
At any rate, I'll let you take it up with your fellow member.
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Carson,
Quite frankly I have no interest in so doing.
Bob
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I played with a member of the R&A some two weeks ago who made the trip to Scotland and participated in the vote. He said the writing has been on the wall for some time and the momentum for approval was insurmountable. The R&A knows its place in golf and no coercion took place or was needed. He was not as sanguine about The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golf converting any time soon.
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I played with a member of the R&A some two weeks ago who made the trip to Scotland and participated in the vote. He said the writing has been on the wall for some time and the momentum for approval was insurmountable. The R&A knows its place in golf and no coercion took place or was needed. He was not as sanguine about The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golf converting any time soon.
Lou,
The normal procedure in anything requiring a vote was that one had to be present at the club. In fairness to those members overseas and unable to attend, it was decided to have a postal or eMail ballot. It is my opinion that in this way the seven or eight percent of those members at the Autumn Meeting, some of whom might well be diehard misogamists, would have little chance of scuppering the the proposal.
Bob
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They were also told by Peter Dawson to vote "yes" if they wanted to keep their membership. Not really a "free" vote.
If this were actually true, it'd be interesting. But is it actually true?
Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I've been not really following the thread.
However, I was told this (first-hand) by a member of the R&A.
The writing was on the wall by the media and general public opinion. Let's take a step back and look at this objectively. Do you really think the R&A would have made their vote public before the vote if they did not know beyond a shadow of doubt that the vote would be returned as a majority "YES"?
I feel we are all intelligent here.
I'm definitely coming late to this bun fight and while Mr Huntley undoubtedly doesn't need any haunders fae me, as they say round this way, let me use some of the intelligence we've all been credited with and point out a flaw in Carsons theory on the R&A threatening expulsion on any members voting against letting women in.
The R&A unless I'm mistaken is a members club. Ignoring any issues relating to what the club's constitution says about expelling members, how does a club go about expelling a majority of members who effectively control the club ? Or perhaps the threatened expulsion only applies to those voting against the proposal in the instance of the proposal being voted through ? I think I'm right in saying that 15% voted against the proposal which must translate to certainly a few hundred members at least. I've got to think expelling that many members would create a far bigger stooshie than not admitting lady members in the first place.
Just a thought.
Niall
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Newly named honorary members of the R&A Golf Club of St Andrews:
- Princess Anne
- Laura Davies
- Renée Powell
- Belle Robertson
- Lally Segard
- Annika Sorenstam
- Louise Suggs
http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2015/February/The-Royal-and-Ancient-Golf-Club-announces-new-honorary-members.aspx (http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2015/February/The-Royal-and-Ancient-Golf-Club-announces-new-honorary-members.aspx)
http://golfweek.com/news/2015/feb/10/st-andrews-female-members-laura-davies-annika/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2015/feb/10/st-andrews-female-members-laura-davies-annika/)
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/sorenstam-davies-among-first-female-ra-members/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/sorenstam-davies-among-first-female-ra-members/)
http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/12304398/annika-sorenstam-first-female-members-royal-ancient-golf-club (http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/12304398/annika-sorenstam-first-female-members-royal-ancient-golf-club)
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Will someone here confirm that Laura Davies is not in the LPGA's Hall of Fame? If so this must be the toughest nut to crack in the golfing world.
Bob
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http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/2/10/the-initial-dozen-royal-and-ancients-first-women-members.html
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http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/announcement-eases-restrictions-womens-hof/
Hi Bob,
This link explains how the criteria have been modified to allow her inclusion this year.
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Be interesting to see who the ordinary members are. More important than the headline honorary ones.
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Be interesting to see who the ordinary members are. More important than the headline honorary ones.
They're on the list above in David's link.
Mrs Bonnallack made it in against the almost insurmountable odds stacked against her admission.
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The university released a statement, saying, “We wish the R&A every success and look forward to the resumption of the tradition by which previous Principals of St. Andrews were invited to become honorary members.”
What do you think the odds would be that Louise Richardson wrote that Press Release herself ? It must be very galling for her that she can't use the dinning room at the R&A clubhouse. Surely a sad loss to the game of golf.
Anyway, congratulations to all the ladies involved, and especially pleased for Belle Robertson, the local hero.
Niall
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Re the Provost of the University sans invitation, she would have been a shoe in had she not got her nickers in a knot some weeks ago.
Bob
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Please forgive my ignorance, but I have a question. Earlier in this thread there was a discussion on the fact that the R&A was both a private club and a ruling body for golf around the world. The notion was presented that the men's-only private club had a right to be men's only if that's what the members wanted (a notion that I tend to agree with, generally speaking). But as to the part of the R&A that is a ruling body - prior to this vote, is it true that there were literally NO women that were allowed to participate in those functions? If that is the case, it boggles the mind. I understand that in 2004 there was a reorganization and a separate company was created to handle the "ruling" functions. Have women had no place in that company since 2004? I'm far less interested in the fact that women are now allowed to join the club, and much more curious about the role of women in administering the game. Makes me curious about the USGA, for that matter.
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Re the Provost of the University sans invitation, she would have been a shoe in had she not got her nickers in a knot some weeks ago.
Bob
Bob,
Based on the tone of her comments she obviously cared more about the idea of women being admitted than her personally being admitted, unless she is shockingly ignorant for someone in her position. She did, perhaps, help push this thing over the finish line and for that I give her due credit. Some times the old boys need a swift kick in pants.
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The university released a statement, saying, “We wish the R&A every success and look forward to the resumption of the tradition by which previous Principals of St. Andrews were invited to become honorary members.”
What do you think the odds would be that Louise Richardson wrote that Press Release herself ? It must be very galling for her that she can't use the dinning room at the R&A clubhouse. Surely a sad loss to the game of golf.
Niall
Apparently the Principal's used to take foreign visitors to lunch there. Must be costing the University a bloody fortune, treating guests outside the R&A.
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Kirk some years ago the R&A organisation running golf split from the members club, due to potential liaibilty to members of the club was sued. The R&A had a female director in 2011 and there are no doubt women in senior paid employment. The Royal and Ancient GolF Club of St Andrews is the members club.
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http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/exclusive-dublin-golf-club-to-consider-lifting-ban-on-female-members-31205758.html
Any possible future link? ;)
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I love history and I loved talking to Bob Huntley about historical events.
With recent events at The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, I thought this was worth a bump.
For those that are not aware, Bob Huntley was a member of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club.
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I don't really care who is a member of the Royal & Ancient GC. What is far more pertinent to the question of women is how the R&A is getting on. There has been a new Chief Exec for a few years now...is there more than one woman in executive management now than was the case under Dawson? Now that the LGU has merged with the R&A this question will become more and more pressing....not to mention persons of colour. When I last checked the exec positions (2015)...19 white males...1 white female.
Ciao
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Bumping this old thread.
Has there been any change?
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I don't think so Kirk, women are still allowed to be members.
Niall