Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve_ Shaffer on March 24, 2014, 10:55:12 AM
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The Union League of Philadelphia www.unionleague.org having lost the bidding war for Woodcrest CC (Flynn) last year has been seeking a deal with TF:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/Union-League-seeks-Phila-golf-course-deal.html?c=r
Now, NGF is involved in a survey:
The Union League of Philadelphia is considering purchasing and renovating the Torresdale Frankford Country Club, located in northeast
Philadelphia.
The League would be making about $8.5 million in improvements to the clubhouse and golf course,which is a
classic Donald Ross design.
If the deal comes to fruition, membership in the greatly improved club will be available for about $8,000.
This would be an all-inclusive annual fee that covers dues,bag storage, locker, and food & beverage minimum.
In light of this proposed deal, we value your input. We will ask you questions about:
Your golf experience in general
Your familiarity with TorresdaleFrankford CC
Your potential interest in joining the club after it re-opens as a vastly improved facility
Thank you for yourfeedback.
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Torresdale-Frankford is a very fun course, and the locker room might be the best in Philly. But I don't understand the numbers which the Union League is throwing out. Currently (I believe, am not certain) dues are much less than $8k, and still T-F is struggling to find enough members. What is the Union League counting on to keep things in the green? Use of the course by Union League members independent of T-F full members? Will anybody want to join a course which has a couple thousand house members?
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I would like to know how much of that 8.5 mil is for improvements to the golf course. And of that slice, how much is for tree management. You could burn a lot of off-road diesel fuel in the stumpers. :)
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"Will anybody want to join a course which has a couple thousand house members?"
At least one!!!
While TF is pretty close and a pretty cool course, I won't be joining but a large social membership is awesome for club finances.
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I would like to understand how they will make the $8.5 million in improvements pay off by selling memberships for $8,000.
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Seriously?
Come on Tom, this is far from a complicated math problem.
My question is, how much of the 8.5 will be spent on the golf course and how much on the clubhouse?
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Seriously?
Come on Tom, this is far from a complicated math problem.
My question is, how much of the 8.5 will be spent on the golf course and how much on the clubhouse?
Seriously, Jim. Explain it to me. If it was really that simple everyone would be making it work, and not many are making it work.
At first I thought they'd have to sell more than 1000 memberships to pay off the cost of the renovations. Then, I saw that they plan not just to SELL memberships for $8k, but to charge $8k per year in dues.
But how much of that will be above operations, and help pay off the debt and the interest on the debt? And how many people are they sure want to pay $8,000 per year to be a member? And if the economy turns down again, and a percentage of members bail, what's their plan?
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I always assumed that the Union League was somewhat above normal financial concerns. I have no personal knowledge but the reputation in the city was that it was old and powerful money. If the reality is close to what I heard growing up and then working in the city I would think the finances being discussed here would be less then onerous to the individual members.
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My bet is that the eight mil purchase price will put a very minor dent in their cash flow. I believe their art work on display is worth well over that.
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Seriously?
Come on Tom, this is far from a complicated math problem.
My question is, how much of the 8.5 will be spent on the golf course and how much on the clubhouse?
Seriously, Jim. Explain it to me. If it was really that simple everyone would be making it work, and not many are making it work.
At first I thought they'd have to sell more than 1000 memberships to pay off the cost of the renovations. Then, I saw that they plan not just to SELL memberships for $8k, but to charge $8k per year in dues.
But how much of that will be above operations, and help pay off the debt and the interest on the debt? And how many people are they sure want to pay $8,000 per year to be a member? And if the economy turns down again, and a percentage of members bail, what's their plan?
Tom,
In my mind, this is what golf needs, some new models and some new thinking. The Union League made over $5.0 in 2012:
http://www.guidestar.org/organizations/23-1171350/union-league-philadelphia.aspx
They boast of being the #1 City Club in the USA, so they seem to know how to run their club:
http://www.unionleague.org/about.php
There are a lot of assumptions being made based on an internet report(s) about the numbers, but what is the downside if they are wrong? It an extremely well connected institution in Philadelphia that owns 150+ acres in the City of Philadelphia between I-95 and US 1 and also close to an airport (Northeast airport is small). If it fails, at $10,000 an acre, I would take a few acres off their hands. See:
http://phillylandworks.wordpress.com/featured-properties-for-sale/page/2/
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Tom,
The math problem is easy.
It's the golf problem that's difficult. Of course we don't know how many people will pay that $8,000 but someone willing to go out on a limb to find out is very encouraging.
It's shocking to me that you seem not to have a grasp on club revenue streams. Take Alex Cameron's initial reaction that a couple thousand social members would be a negative. If the Union League membership all embraced TF and joined; even if they add a one quarter price ($2,000) social membership level this would be all the clubs needs to prosper and thrive. When a person pays $2,000 a year just for the opportunity to pay a couple hundred dollars for a meal you can subsidize a lot of other activities.
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A significant portion of that number is going towards the golf course renovation.
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A significant portion of that number is going towards the golf course renovation.
Stephen Kay?
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Very interesting.
First off, if you ever get the chance and have not been to the Union League, I highly recommend it. Some building and art collection. And the food is incredibly good.
Agree with Ed here ... they may view things through an entirely different (and perhaps very long term) financial lens.
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The golf course is very good. Playable for all levels in that there is not a lot of water or forced carries. But it can be a very strong and difficult course from the back. Nice mix of long and short holes. Some nasty greens. However, the area around it is not particularly good. I remember a few years ago a member told me they were escorting guests to cars after dinner so they felt safe going into the parking lot after dark. I am not sure if it is an $8K a year course. The options within a 30 minute drive are pretty good, so TF would not be my first choice. And fairly close by is Lu Lu, which has had problems, and Philmont, which I believe is closing one of their 18s to sell. The course is nice, the area iffy at best, and the market still seems to have trouble with the middle range clubs. The high end ones in town, like HV, Aronimink, Philly CC, etc. would seem to be where the affluent golfer would want to go, Union League member or not. There is a lot of competition for that $8k.
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Perhaps the Union League is using the Olympic Club as a financial model for purchasing TF.
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I once holed out a wedge for eagle on #1 at TF to win a six man playoff.
and also have been flagged at the bar in the Union League.
do you think i could get one of those $8,000 memberships?
I do think that the golf course is really good and very under rated.
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I hope to get a better photo album of TFCC this season, but this one from a few years ago in the middle of a summer day will have to do:
http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/TFCC/index.html
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The golf course is very good. Playable for all levels in that there is not a lot of water or forced carries. But it can be a very strong and difficult course from the back. Nice mix of long and short holes. Some nasty greens. However, the area around it is not particularly good. I remember a few years ago a member told me they were escorting guests to cars after dinner so they felt safe going into the parking lot after dark. I am not sure if it is an $8K a year course. The options within a 30 minute drive are pretty good, so TF would not be my first choice. And fairly close by is Lu Lu, which has had problems, and Philmont, which I believe is closing one of their 18s to sell. The course is nice, the area iffy at best, and the market still seems to have trouble with the middle range clubs. The high end ones in town, like HV, Aronimink, Philly CC, etc. would seem to be where the affluent golfer would want to go, Union League member or not. There is a lot of competition for that $8k.
My thoughts exactly. I really like TF, one of my Philadelphia favorites. But $8K is more than I would want to spend given the competition in the area.
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I offer my services for free to manage the tree removal. I can easily get that course close to its potential. I saw Kay's plan and I hope he changes it to be a bolder restoration . I think he was intimidated by the old guard there who wanted to preserve the trees.
If they deal with the trees than they can work to keep the "fairway" ( well into the rough) bunkers in place . The plan I saw moved the bunkers close to the current fairway lines
The Union League certainly has an understanding of classic design so they could do a great job there
Once the course is restored to its original brilliance (yes) it will be a worthy addition to the Union League.
I imagine the members of the League would be only occasional golfers so the course could handle the increased membership
My hope is that they restore #8 and put the green at the bottom of the hill before the creek as designed and built. The new green is commonplace.
As for 17 and 18 the expansion of Grant Ave. messed with that part of the course so I feel free to suggest a new idea . Shorten 17 and create a Ross volcano green then place 18 tee behind it and lengthen the hole and change the angle of the tee shot
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I got that NGF email survey this week. like the golf course a lot. There's a lot of good holes, but any plan there that doesn't start with massive tree removal is a huge mistake. Hopefully that'll be part of the course master plan.
$8000 is a steep ask.
As to the question of social members, Jim is 100% correct, a large active social member list helps keep costs down and adds to the bottom line. At Tavistock, we have a great social member list, and it's a huge plus for the club.
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With all due respect if it's 8k all in, except for food and booze, doesn't that put it in the middle of Philly clubs?
My club is 6k dues and then a slew of add ons that get you to almost 8k. What is the worth of hob knobbing with the rich and famous?
Is 8k really that far out of the market?
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With all due respect if it's 8k all in, except for food and booze, doesn't that put it in the middle of Philly clubs?
My club is 6k dues and then a slew of add ons that get you to almost 8k. What is the worth of hob knobbing with the rich and famous?
Is 8k really that far out of the market?
Ed, I found this survey by GAP from back in 2010 (so probably a reasonable proxy +-5%.)
http://www.hilgerflick.com/2010%20PVCMA%20GAP%20Survey%20publication.pdf
Single golf membership averaged $5,662 for the clubs surveyed (which appears to be almost all of them... except notably, Pine Valley and a few others.) Incidentally, that is almost exactly what T-F was for a single golfer in 2013 ($5,350 or $500 paid monthly.) So I'd say $8k pushes the higher end of the market.
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Whoa Fellas!
I have many details of this proposal through a friend who is a member of the Union League in Philly.
They had a third "Town Hall" meeting at he club today to discuss this project. The project includes forming of a LLC to purchase the club, protecting the current 146 bondholder members, major capital improvements to the clubhouse and grounds and recruiting new members both locally and within the membership of the Union League. League members would be limited to six visits per year so as to create an incentive to join outright and pay supplemental dues.
I have details of what current Union League members would pay for dues to join T-F and it is very reasonable. I do not know what dues structure the non-Union League members will be asked to pay but the $8,000 per year dues being bandied about here is pure speculation and as far as I know has yet to be determined.
Malcolm
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And also for Steve Shaffer...
According to my source there was no "bidding war" for Woodcrest as the numbers the developers were willing to go to made Union League bids to save and operate the club superfluous. They were never going to be a player at those levels.
Malcolm
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A vote is scheduled for Union League members on April 16 according to this article which provides a link to this thread here at GCA!
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/Union-League-to-vote-on-.html
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Yes,
I was meaning to post this but the board of directors of the Union League has voted unanimously to support the strategic partnership with Torresdale-Frankford Country Club and the vote will take place on 4/16.
The Union League will become the sole owner of a new LLC which will own all of the facilities of the country club.
The best news is that beyond the acquisition cost the Union League plans to plow another 8 M into improvements of the grounds as well as the clubhouse and facilities!
Hurrah!! T-F looks like it may well survive and then some!
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I think this proposed purchase is good news. The course needs a good amount of tree removal and more fairway width for sure. As Ed said, the $8k fees are about what bond holding members are paying now. The clubhouse was built in 1922, I believe, and I'm sure a lot funds need to be dedicated to the building. The course only needs tree removal and bunker work in my opinion. What that might cost compared to the clubhouse work I don't know. As for a previous comment on the neighborhood being unsafe, I've lived less that a mile from the club my whole life and don't think twice about my safety walking the streets day or night. It's a great place to live.
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As for a previous comment on the neighborhood being unsafe, I've lived less that a mile from the club my whole life and don't think twice about my safety walking the streets day or night.
Now we know why some people think the neighborhood is dicey. ;)
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Shi$ runs with a rough crowd, but the important thing is that they all have his back. That's why he feels safe. :)
Mark
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I'd be more wary of some of the members who hang at Three Monkeys pub down the street than the slackers I see walking the streets.
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Most recent news on this story, with specifics on the dollars for the purchase, renovation, and cost per year for members:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/Union-League-urges-members-to-back-country-club-deal.html
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I understand 82% of the members of the Union League voted yes. This authorizes the partnership of the 2 clubs if the deal closes.
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In an effort to prevent any chilling of the discussion in this thread, I have been merely monitoring it. Now, I received the following email this afternoon:
"To the Members of Torresdale–Frankford Country Club:
At the Special Meeting of the Certificate Owning Members of Torresdale–Frankford Country Club called for April 22, 2014, the Motion to Authorize the Plan of Transfer to enter into a Special Alliance with the Union League of Philadelphia was approved.
There were 149 Certificate Owners who were eligible to vote on the motion and 134 of those eligible cast ballots. The final vote was announced by our Judge of Elections, [name redacted], to be 133 in favor of the motion and one opposed.
I thank the membership for their unprecedented turnout to vote for this Plan and for their support of this Motion and Plan. I also thank the standing committee which worked so hard to negotiate the Plan which was approved.
Under the terms of the Plan, the Certificate Owning Members will be called upon to vote on the Enhanced Master Plan and to approve changes to our By-Laws in accordance with the approved Plan. The membership will be kept advised of further meetings which may be necessary and any additional developments.
[name redacted]
President"
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I am truly excited that T/F has aligned with one of the bastions of Philly to move forward.
If the powers that be read this thread I want to get across a couple of points
1. Make restoring the course to its classic heritage paramount. This means radical tree removal and maintaining bunker placement.
2. Realize that widening the area of play brings the land into play.
3. Focus on the golfing experience as the most important thing. This means making the clubhouse understated classic just like the Union League itself.
Finally I offer just two personal preferences
1 put 8 green back where it belongs. Having water behind the green is creative ; having a blind approach makes it unique in the area. It is the way it was designed.
2 shorten 17 and create a classic Ross volcano hole . Then move 18 tee to behind the green and drive along the property line to 18 landing zone .
Keep being classic and you can't go wrong; get hip and you lose it.
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More:
http://www.pga.com/golf-courses/golf-buzz/donald-ross-course-purchased-union-league-nations-most-prominent-city-club
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Check out these stats from TFCC today, where the GAP held a Philly Am qualifier: http://www.ghintpp.com/gap/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=414 (http://www.ghintpp.com/gap/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=414)
The course played at 6249 yards.
Sample size was 69 players.
Low round: 71 (+1).
Toughest hole was No. 3, a 394 yard two-shotter. 15/69 players made a par. Zero birdies. It averaged a whopping 5.324.
The lack of birdies is astounding. No. 1 is 337 yards; 2 birdies. It averaged 4.732.
No. 15 is 297 yards; 5 birdies. It averaged almost a half-stroke above par.
I feel like the USGA after the US Open at Merion. ;D
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Check out these stats from TFCC today, where the GAP held a Philly Am qualifier: http://www.ghintpp.com/gap/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=414 (http://www.ghintpp.com/gap/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=414)
The course played at 6249 yards.
Sample size was 69 players.
Low round: 71 (+1).
Toughest hole was No. 3, a 394 yard two-shotter. 15/69 players made a par. Zero birdies. It averaged a whopping 5.324.
The lack of birdies is astounding. No. 1 is 337 yards; 2 birdies. It averaged 4.732.
No. 15 is 297 yards; 5 birdies. It averaged almost a half-stroke above par.
I feel like the USGA after the US Open at Merion. ;D
What speed were the greens? Where were the pins on these holes?
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Check out these stats from TFCC today, where the GAP held a Philly Am qualifier: http://www.ghintpp.com/gap/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=414 (http://www.ghintpp.com/gap/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=414)
The course played at 6249 yards.
Sample size was 69 players.
Low round: 71 (+1).
Toughest hole was No. 3, a 394 yard two-shotter. 15/69 players made a par. Zero birdies. It averaged a whopping 5.324.
The lack of birdies is astounding. No. 1 is 337 yards; 2 birdies. It averaged 4.732.
No. 15 is 297 yards; 5 birdies. It averaged almost a half-stroke above par.
I feel like the USGA after the US Open at Merion. ;D
What speed were the greens? Where were the pins on these holes?
Guys, I was the one who set the golf course up for our qualifier yesterday and was the official in charge at the site. First, the course was in incredible shape. The greens had a nice pace to them and were on the firm side. The rough was long in spots and that was because they weren't able to mow after the storm on Friday. The 3rd hole has one of the most severe greens in GAP and the hole was located in the front right which is about the fairest spot on there. The problem is the target is so small and the tee shot is so difficult. The hole was located middle right on #1, again the easiest spot on that severe green. What made yesterday difficult was the swirling winds. When you have greens that small and firm plus narrow fairways as well your effective target area gets that much more precise. And the yardage is deceiving because so many approach shots are back uphill at TFCC. All in all I loved how it played yesterday as did most of the field.
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Chris,
Thanks for the insight and high praise. Greenskeeper Brian Mazey does a damn good job with the tiny budget he has.
The greens on 1 and 3 will be softened when Stephen Kay finally executes our master plan this winter thanks to the infusion of Union League cash. The plan has been in place for a few years, but we never had the capital to do more than redo 5 and 14, and a few bunkers on other holes. A pair of contractors toured the course two fridays ago in preparation to submit their bids.
Even with swirling winds, a hole like 15 is 4 iron + gap wedge for most of these players. The fact that only 5 birdies were made really boggles my mind. It's ranked as the easiest hole on the entire course, handicap-wise.
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Now that UL is involved I think T/F should redo its master plan. I say this because the course should be more ambitious now and preserve more of the original design rather than settle for ideas such as pulling in the bunkers .
Stephen Kay has done some fine work of restournovating a course like Llanerch but T/F is a treasure that should be restored
Maybe Kay is the right guy to restore the place but the present plan is lacking in ambition ,IMO .
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Big fan of this course. Just played it recently and it was in great shape. Glad to see that plans are moving forward for this historic course and club.
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Now that UL is involved I think T/F should redo its master plan. I say this because the course should be more ambitious now and preserve more of the original design rather than settle for ideas such as pulling in the bunkers .
Stephen Kay has done some fine work of restournovating a course like Llanerch but T/F is a treasure that should be restored
Maybe Kay is the right guy to restore the place but the present plan is lacking in ambition ,IMO .
Mayday,
You'll be unhappy to hear that 8 will now play 500 yards after a new blue tee is built and raised in the trees between the end of the 7th fairway and the current blue tee. Green is staying put—which I prefer, because its front left to back right angle gives it a level of difficulty similar to the 12th at ANGC. Long left and short right are the most common misses and are very hard places to get up-and-down.
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Yes it seems that people prefer golf holes to be like all other golf holes that they are used to playing rather than quirky as they were designed
Once you open that can of worms all bets are off for what can be done to a course and you can probably find a Ross course somewhere in the land that did similar things
I still say that 11 is the hole where the green is on the other side of the water and it is an angled approach
8 is different. Instead of the pedestrian parallel carry over the water to a green set away from the edge it should be as designed
I believe Ross probably was thinking about how the water was to be used on the course
Don't you think?
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Yes it seems that people prefer golf holes to be like all other golf holes that they are used to playing rather than quirky as they were designed
Once you open that can of worms all bets are off for what can be done to a course and you can probably find a Ross course somewhere in the land that did similar things
I still say that 11 is the hole where the green is on the other side of the water and it is an angled approach
8 is different. Instead of the pedestrian parallel carry over the water to a green set away from the edge it should be as designed
I believe Ross probably was thinking about how the water was to be used on the course
Don't you think?
However Ross imagined the water to be used on the course has been obliterated by technology. Holes like 3, 9, 10, 18 all cross the Byberry creek, but the carry required is no longer a challenge. So I think 8 is a hole where the creek is still in play because many players miss their long-iron approach shot short and wind up swimming—just because the green is twenty yards beyond the creek doesn't mean it is not in play.
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What if there were two greens—the original one in front of the creek, and the current one beyond it. THAT would be cool. Maybe balls that land on the front green when playing the back one could be moved to a drop area?
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I hope to get a better photo album of TFCC this season, but this one from a few years ago in the middle of a summer day will have to do:
http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/TFCC/index.html
I did revisit Torresdale-Frankford recently and my new photo album is much improved, IMHO:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Torresdale/
The last pic is the master plan of Kay and Smith. I'm very much looking forward to their work.
I just hope they take down at least 1/2 as many trees as Wissahickon! Grin.
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Thanks, Joe!
Work on the Clubhouse has begun, and the driving range has been reduced to dirt. Operations are shutting down October 1 for the "renostoration."
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Are the greens to be rebuilt to USGA spec?
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Are the greens to be rebuilt to USGA spec?
No.
I believe just the 1st and 3rd greens will be 'softened'.
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Joe: Not to USGA spec, right? Meaning - dig them out, put in stone, dirt, sand mix, etc. Merion "softened" 12 and 15, but didn't rebuild the greens.
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Joe: Not to USGA spec, right? Meaning - dig them out, put in stone, dirt, sand mix, etc. Merion "softened" 12 and 15, but didn't rebuild the greens.
TFCC is not going to do the 'usga spec' greens on 1 and 3. AFAIK, they won't be rebuilding them, just "softening".
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1 green is just a tilted disk so I can see the need to reduce the slope. But 3 is a special green where care must be taken to preserve the internal contours. It's just a tough, unrelenting golf hole that I love. Remove the trees right and left and bring back the recovery shot.
T/F members would be in their glory if that course played as designed for recovery shots. I don't think I have seen another course where trees cover up great golfing ground as at this place.
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:D :D
Love Torresdale , such a fun golf course. Never forget playing the first thirty years ago and fully imagining the possibilities. It would be a great place for a nature walk this fall to discuss the architecture . Wonder how much has morphed over the years .
Remember guys putting off the green on 1 in a qualifier , they knew something was up pretty quick ,
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1 green is just a tilted disk so I can see the need to reduce the slope. But 3 is a special green where care must be taken to preserve the internal contours. It's just a tough, unrelenting golf hole that I love. Remove the trees right and left and bring back the recovery shot.
T/F members would be in their glory if that course played as designed for recovery shots. I don't think I have seen another course where trees cover up great golfing ground as at this place.
I couldn't agree more!
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I listened to Stephen Kay's presentation concerning the work at TFCC, now officially known as the Union League Golf Club at Torresdale. The 'sympathetic restoration' starts in earnest in a couple of days, with the completion of phase 1 by May of next year, weather permitting. At least a couple of hundred trees will be removed, bunkers redone with a few new ones added, a couple of greens softened, etc. Here is a 'clickable' plan for the work:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/TFCC_MP_Final_June_2014.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/TFCC_MP_Final_June_2014.jpg)
I heard a number around 3 mill for the work on the course. The renovation of the clubhouse is going pretty full tilt right now, with the price tag around 4 mill.
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Here is a nice 1939 aerial of Torresdale. Gosh how nice it would be to go back to that width!
(it is clickable to a larger size)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/Torresdale_1939_aerial.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/Torresdale_1939_aerial.jpg)
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Here is a nice 1939 aerial of Torresdale. Gosh how nice it would be to go back to that width!
(it is clickable to a larger size)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/Torresdale_1939_aerial.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/Torresdale_1939_aerial.jpg)
:o :o :o
Wow, I've never seen that old aerial before. It looks phenomenal!
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Joe Logan visits T-F and interviews Stephen Kay:
http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=15927&pid=20
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Look at that serial for the use of creeks. 11 is a great diagonal use fronting a par three. 8 has the creek right in back and that is a blind shot to the green. I don't know any examples like that. The other uses of the creek are the classic variety where the creek is not penal.
I just noticed the old 17 had a creek that required a carry at the green. That hole isn't there anymore because of road widening.
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8 has the creek right in back and that is a blind shot to the green. I don't know any examples like that
Mayday,
CC Of Scranton, hole 10 has a creek immediately behind the green on a potentially blind second shot down the hill. Anything on the back fringe with any roll will trickle all the way down and into the creek as it's all shaved down nicely. JWB and I dropped a ball on the back fringe that ended up wet about 20 seconds later. Awesome green site!
MM
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8 has the creek right in back and that is a blind shot to the green. I don't know any examples like that
Mayday,
CC Of Scranton, hole 10 has a creek immediately behind the green on a potentially blind second shot down the hill. Anything on the back fringe with any roll will trickle all the way down and into the creek as it's all shaved down nicely. JWB and I dropped a ball on the back fringe that ended up wet about 20 seconds later. Awesome green site!
MM
Scranton #10 is a wonderful green. trying to figure out the best shot into that green is a puzzle that would be fun day after day for many years.
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Jim, I think that statement is true of MANY of the greens at CC of Scranton. If not all of them.
Top 5 set of greens I have ever seen IMO.
Mark
****END OF THREAD HIJACK****
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Agree wholly that the set is as good an anything that I've seen. The only green that really didn't do it for me was #5's. The pin was frontish right and just sat on a broad slope that was really too steep to be pinned at the speed they had the greens at. The green in general was just kind of blah compared to the rest. I'm sure it is one of the few that are not original Travis. Admittedly a minor quibble though.
7-8-9 and 10 is a crazy good stretch of greens.
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Jim, I agree with you that 5 was mostly slope and not undulations. But if you're stringing the stretch together you have to add 6 green.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/a9v4i1.jpg)
****END of THREAD JACK***
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Here is a nice 1939 aerial of Torresdale. Gosh how nice it would be to go back to that width!
(it is clickable to a larger size)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/Torresdale_1939_aerial.jpg) (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Torresdale/Torresdale_1939_aerial.jpg)
Love the shared fairway on Holes 12/16.
Course will be reopening on Thursday, May 28. Clubhouse looking like late summer.
(http://www.unionleague.org/members/images/Torresdale%20Construction%20Update/greencourse.jpg)
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Love that pic, Bill.
A few weeks ago I took many pics of the ongoing work at Torresdale. I'll try to put them into a photo album soon and make them available.
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On April 6 I took a tour of the ongoing work at the Union League Golf Club at Torresdale. Here are the pics I gathered (note: the greens were being punched and sanded this day):
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/ULatT_Construction/ (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/ULatT_Construction/)
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And today I was fortunate to play the golf course to see the work done by Stephen Kay. Here is a new photo album:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/ULGCatT