Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Eric Smith on March 14, 2014, 11:03:52 PM
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The debate that couldn't wait!
or..
We will sell no wine before its time?
Take it away, Orson...http://youtu.be/VFevH5vP32s?t=22s
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/orson_zpsb51ec903.jpg)
OW: Ahhh...A question I am often asked is "Which do you pair with the pork chop - white or red?" To which my reply is to leave such decisions until AFTER the golf, suggesting that BOTH go nicely with all of the culinary and varietal delights at Dismal River..
Thank you, Mr. Welles, and thank you, GCA, for indulging me. My intent is to have a little fun with the names of our courses, and, generally, to have a little fun with everything else, while you get your questions and commentary ready for what promises to be a riveting exercise in free publicity for Paul Masson.
Very well. I present you a GCA match play thread pitting the White and the Red courses at Dismal River against one another in an internet blood bath most likely NOT to earn a Neti Award for brevity / bandwidth.
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Although situated side-by-side, the two courses at Dismal are quite distinctive in their design and topography, and, in my opinion, complement one another superbly. I've yet to identify a clear favorite, though I imagine you'd have a hard time convincing me not to head straight for the first tee of the White on my next visit. Old habits really do die hard.
The White Course opened for play in 2006. Designed by Jack Nicklaus, the course, then known simply as Dismal River, was Nicklaus's 250th design. The course has had a history of eliciting strong and often polarizing opinions from internet and magazine pundits alike. [See Matt Ward's write-up (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=25261.0) on GCA, Brad Klein's notebook (http://golfweek.com/news/2011/sep/22/raters-notebook-dismal-river-mullen-neb/) in GOLFWEEK and Tom Dunne's review (http://www.departures.com/articles/extraordinary-nebraska-golf-courses) in DEPARTURES Magazine]. For this member, it was love at first sight. Massive dunes. Blind shots. Discernible quirk. (A windmill in front of the green? Hello!) Punchbowls. Sideboards. Backstops. Attributes that, at the end of the day, add up to FUN each and every time I go around it.
The new Red Course, designed and built by Tom Doak and his team at Renaissance Golf Design, (with an assist from Don Mahaffey), opened for preview play last summer. I would describe the course as having a more refined character than Nicklaus's design (OW: with hints of elderberry, finnel and mountain shrubs adding to its complexity). It is an extremely attractive golf course, being much more 'communal' throughout, with very wide playing areas, allowing for long views to other nearby holes. The routing takes you through a variety of interesting terrain, culminating along the banks of the river, underneath the shadows of some enormous sand hills. 2014 will be the Red's first full season out of the cask and we should see the fescue further tightening to create a more consistent playing surface throughout the course.
Hopefully, via match play, we will be able to expand on specific elements that differentiate the courses from one another. I'll need some assistance, as Orson and I may be zonkered before we get to the next hole. I encourage those who know Dismal to please chime in, and, by all means, score the match! I'd also ask those who haven't played them to fire away and ask questions (!) so that we may all, hopefully, learn a few things. For simplicity's sake, let's stick with match play (win, loss, tie) as our scoring format.
Without further ado, let's head out (in our carts) to the White Course.
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/GCA/4a7f48de-3d3f-467f-84fa-8ff238340589_zps904ead20.jpg)
The first tee of the White Course is one of my favorite spots in golf and a real eye opener for the first time sand hills visitor. You're standing there among these majestic sand dunes, prairie grasses waving in the wind, without a tree or bush in sight. Just these glorious green ribbons of fairway along with a smattering of exposed sand pits rising in the distance. It is so different than any place I've ever been. I liken it to how I might imagine the surface of some far off distant planet. A desolate, windswept plane under a vast and endless sky. Dismal? Hardly.
Hole 1
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/297992_516731505051911_255301671_n.jpg)
The first is a mid length par 4 measuring a little more than 400 yards from the square tees nearest the practice green. The fairway here is generous, but a roving eye will undoubtedly be drawn toward the nest of gnarly bunkers cut into the base of the hill on the left hand side of the fairway. You do not want to find yourself in there, so focus instead on the path beyond the crown of the hogsback. Get your ball on a line just left of it to have a better look at what's around the corner.
The tee shot has always suited me. Reason #1 why I love the hole. After a pot of coffee and 4 Advil, my early morning push draw is fairly reliable enough to get it out onto the top of the hill..
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/7f40f540-2217-4a93-844e-82cafd3782b6_zps490c7f18.jpg)
The goal though is to carry it far enough to catch the down slope of the hill, which will propel the ball an extra 50-75 yards, leaving 100 yards or so to the green. What a fun green too. A large tiered punchbowl, stretched more like a bathtub, provides a much appreciated helping hand at the start of the day.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/034ca737-da48-490d-b2e3-7bcd41cd4450_zps4ebfb50e.jpg?t=1394640012)
Red 1 to follow..
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/GCA/ba4e0a80-42ca-49a2-a7f2-f64ee27a123f_zps5125d114.jpg)
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Do you have a really good picture of the slope on the left side, until you're in that fairway you don't realize how significant it is.
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Do you have a really good picture of the slope on the left side, until you're in that fairway you don't realize how significant it is.
I think so. Will try to post it in the morning.
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Can't find a photo of that slope specifically so will have to rely on Sam's good judgement.
I apologize for the delay and will resume posting hole 1 of the Red at the conclusion of the Tennessee / Florida game.
Go Vols
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Eric - if you don't mind too much, I will leave no opinion or observation un-posted, no matter how half-baked or uniformed. White #1 strikes me as the perfect opener: a non-par 5 gentle handshake (you can, after all, get within a 100 yards of a 400 yard Par 4 with enough coffee and advil in you) that doesn't immediately appear to be a gentle handshake, and from an elevated tee that's elevated just enough for the golfer to be able to take in the striking vista and to whet his appetite for what lies ahead, but not so elevated that you feel like a fraud if you do managed to hit one out there a long way. And finally, a large and seemingly welcoming green, but so designed as to put an early choice in the golfer's mind: do I fly in a wedge, high and to the pin, or is it too early to try bumping/punching one in low, especially if the pin is on the back tier?
Oh my, me thinks that young Tommy D will have to be at the top of his game with Red #1 to outdo the wily old major champion who's grown gentler (and surprisingly hipper) with the passing of the years -- a veteran who may not play other architect's courses, but who nonetheless notices everything going on around him.
(A very very good introduction, btw, thanks).
Peter
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Peter,
Thank you. I'm thrilled you've chosen to participate in the match.
As you mentioned regarding the green at the first, options abound as to how to play your approach. From down near the 100 yard marker the flag is completely hidden so it is imperative to check it out from the top of the hill in order to know which approach to take. I have putted from down there, flown it in high, and when feeling frisky, played a bank shot off the side of the hill. Always a lot of fun when you crest the slope to see how you did!
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/GCA/ba4e0a80-42ca-49a2-a7f2-f64ee27a123f_zps5125d114.jpg)
Having seen the Red Course grow from a twinkle in CJ and TD's eyes to now has been an incredibly satisfying experience. I mean serious fun. During the construction of the course I even got to man the hydroseed hose on the fairway of the second hole. You'll find the best turf on the course there on the slope nearest that mammoth bunker. ;D
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/A%20week%20in%20Nebraska%202012/4592f011.jpg)
1 green October 2011
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/7828803a.jpg)
1 green October 2012
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-15.jpg)
1 tee July 2013
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/red1_zps394d6ae6.jpg)
1 fairway July 2013
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1209221_579906162067778_472660720_n.jpg)
The first hole is a nice opener, a short par 5, when the wind cooperates, but not as friendly a handshake as she looks with a center line bunker annoyingly situated precisely where this golfer wants to place his second shot! On my last visit I played the hole twice, each time finding the little bugger.
As I've mentioned before in other Dismal threads, 1 is my least favorite hole on the course. It's still a good hole, and does a nice job of getting up the hill and over to 2 tee, where the course opens up to some amazing holes with the long vistas mentioned in my opening post.
Anyone else reminded of 12 White when playing this one? Both being straight away par 5's working their way up a hill?
White #1 is one of my favorites on that course so it wins this match up.
White 1 up.
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I think the stark contrast of the two courses can be seen right out of the shoot.
#1 on the Nicklaus (White) is a thrill ride full of mystery, blind shots, and wild contours. If the wind is in my face and I'm playing the back tees, carrying the massive fairway ridge is TOUGH. And the reward for actually carrying that ridge and rolling down into the basin is HUGE. Without accomplishing that, the hole becomes a real bear...and having multiple plays under your belt is key in that situation as the blindness is a major factor. And at the green the real fun starts. Using the banks for feed the ball...and using the green contours...is a lot of fun.
#1 on the Doak (Red) appears to be the gentle handshake of an opener. But the bunker placement is so good, that many times they sneak up on you and grab your ball. And then that ridge in the green...subtle (kind of), but a major factor in trying to score on the hole.
For me to pick a winner in our match play contest is tough...because it really depends on what kind of golf I'm looking to play. If I want to take the traditional solid gold academy award winning critics choice of a golf hole, it is Red. If I want to embrace the truly unique golf that one can only find trekking many miles to play the wild White course, then, of course, it is White. What mood am I in? Is it my first 18...or am I embarking on my second 18 of the day? You really do have your choice at at Dismal.
But, I'm picking Red for the winner of the hole. Why? Well, I'll tell you. :D
At times, White will be the best hole for the mood I'm in while at Dismal. Incredibly good, thrilling, one of a kind. But, if the wind is up...I'm playing 36 for the 3rd day in a row...it may not be my choice. And EVERY time, Red will be a great hole.
Red one up on my card.
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
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Eric,
In general red ages much better than white
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Eric -
Thanks for starting this. I've not been to Dismal River. I am looking forward to this thread.
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fwiw, I'm a stupid human and this red white thing with the flowers and the flags is odd at best IMHO 8)
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
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The beauty of DR is that no choice need be made. Play them both, same day, next day, following day. How cool is that? With apologies for avoiding the question, Eric, I call the match even on the first tee. I'm just so pumped to be there, on either one's one, that there's nary a thought of another one.
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Red #1, tee shot. Fall 2012.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-11.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-11.jpg.html)
Red #1, fairway, Summer 2013.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps99f019a1.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps99f019a1.jpg.html)
Red, #1 approach, fall 2012.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-14.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-14.jpg.html)
Red #1 Fairway, 2013.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps40038d18.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps40038d18.jpg.html)
I can't find any pics of White, still searching my Photobucket.
The subtlety of Red vs the bold #1 white?
White 1 up.
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Standing on White number 1 is one of the best visuals I've ever experienced in golf. It was the first shot of Sandhill golf, the wind was dead left to right about 25.
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)
More seriously, I think I get the point about what it looks like. Interestingly and I think tellingly about the nature of each course: White looks like you'll lose a ball but probably won't; red looks like you can't but you might.
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Red #1, tee shot. Fall 2012.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-11.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-11.jpg.html)
Red #1, fairway, Summer 2013.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps99f019a1.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps99f019a1.jpg.html)
Red, #1 approach, fall 2012.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-14.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-14.jpg.html)
Red #1 Fairway, 2013.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps40038d18.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps40038d18.jpg.html)
I can't find any pics of White, still searching my Photobucket.
The subtlety of Red vs the bold #1 white?
White 1 up.
Kind of shocking to see tall rough bordering both sides? Looks like a nightmare for the 18 handicap with a gigantic slice ;D. I'm guessing many will complain about the 'lack of trees and/or chance for (my new favorite) exciting recoveries' from 50 yard misses.
Do or re-load - I like it!
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)
More seriously, I think I get the point about what it looks like. Interestingly and I think tellingly about the nature of each course: White looks like you'll lose a ball but probably won't; red looks like you can't but you might.
Wellmon is a tremendous slouch.
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Joe,
#1 on Red is most certainly NOT do or re-load. In fact, the maintenance and design of the course make it VERY playable.
My first tee shot on the course was fade up the right side. But right about 200-250 yards out the fairways bows way out on the right side to help save those kind of shots from the gunch. That bailout area is blind off the tee, but it is there. But them you have to come in from a bad angle with that right side fairway bunker in your line of play. I suppose Tom and his crew figured the extra bunker in play was penalty enough... and they were right.
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Eric, great thread and timing with the 5th Major about a hundred days away! While I have not played the Red I have walked it. My vote goes to the Red.
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Joe,
#1 on Red is most certainly NOT do or re-load. In fact, the maintenance and design of the course make it VERY playable.
My first tee shot on the course was fade up the right side. But right about 200-250 yards out the fairways bows way out on the right side to help save those kind of shots from the gunch. That bailout area is blind off the tee, but it is there. But them you have to come in from a bad angle with that right side fairway bunker in your line of play. I suppose Tom and his crew figured the extra bunker in play was penalty enough... and they were right.
Mac,
I love the fairway width and from the pictures, it looks very playable. You are saying normally they mow the border rough down? It looks very thick.
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Joe,
NO.
Not the border, the fairway. The fairway bows out on the right.
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)
It's a good angle from the left side. ;)
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)
More seriously, I think I get the point about what it looks like. Interestingly and I think tellingly about the nature of each course: White looks like you'll lose a ball but probably won't; red looks like you can't but you might.
Wellmon is a tremendous slouch.
My handicap is up, I'm a bigger slouch this year.
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)
More seriously, I think I get the point about what it looks like. Interestingly and I think tellingly about the nature of each course: White looks like you'll lose a ball but probably won't; red looks like you can't but you might.
Wellmon is a tremendous slouch.
My handicap is up, I'm a bigger slouch this year.
Sandbagging?
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
well not me personally, lol
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Hole 2 tomorrow
While we wait for JakaB,
I'll have the lobster
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Hole 2 tomorrow
While we wait for JakaB,
I'll have the lobster
Haiku?
Gesundheit!
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Thank God we have another Kingsley thread. It's been weeks and weeks!
Thank God we have another Dismal thread. It's been days!
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Looking forward to more, Eric. I'd like to see/learn about these courses, just to know. And, I'm going to score this from the outsider's perspective (with apologies in advance for not deferring to the opinions of those who have played both courses.)
So: after one hole, PJP scores DRW one up.
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I can't think of anything new to say so I'll just go with quotes from previous threads.
"I give the nod to Red because of the pot bunker in the lay up area. It shouldn't go without mentioning that this is one obvious glaring example of the green on the Red being far more exciting and diverse."
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at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
You felt like you could lose a ball?
well not me personally, lol
Good, you had me worried!
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Gesundheit!
Thank you
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Anticipating Eric's move to our next match, No. 2, I note, quite simply, Red's No. 2 is a stunning, strategic two shotter, uphill with a blin tee shot. Very cool. I defer to those with the photos to prove it. It's a helluva golf hole for all the reasons soon to be noted. I'm still awaiting my first three.
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I'm jumping headlong into this thread. Then again, no.
I will agree with John Kavanaugh that the 1st green on the Red course appears to have lots of opportunities for creative plays around the green.
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Hole 2
White 2
War of Attrition
The second on the White may be a lot of things, but one thing it is not is easy - just about the earliest punch in the mouth of any top course I know. One knock on it is when walking, the climb from the first green to the tee is really uphill. Same for the walk from the tee to the fairway.
2 is 445 yards from the square tees and plays longer than that, most definitely as a half par on the high side where a four just about always wins the hole in match play. I like the hole, as 99% of the time I am playing in a match anyway, but I do think it could be made better by extending the fairway out to the left, thereby increasing the bail out area off of the tee. I remember Sam Morrow once saying something along the lines of if there was an ocean down the right side it would be considered one of the world's best. I'm not sure that's the case, but a beach or island view might do nicely to calm the nerves before making a swing! The carry off the tee - though only 175 yards - does appear to be more daunting than one would like this early in the round..
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/Facebook/Dismal/d20a786f-34b5-4b9b-92ce-be382ce50bec_zpsbdc82a92.jpg)
..while the uphill and blind nature of the second shot, with certain death extending all the way down the right hand side of the fairway, does little to assuage such fears.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/f8fced62-a9dd-45e2-92a8-debeb73658a7_zpsbb2fdc2a.jpg)
But...upon playing the hole a time or two, the benefits of taking a riskier line off the tee become more apparent.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/2e23882c-67e3-4a0d-8f0a-8278c4544de0_zpsbbdb5baa.jpg)
The green is sunken below the fairway where the slope will funnel the ball onto the putting surface.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/b2d18c96-73bf-4d16-b488-50ad6566a5fc_zpsf07d2915.jpg)
It is a cool hole, but also a tough hole and it is completely understandable why it is not a favorite for many.
Red 2 coming up..
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Ah, JN follows up a winning 1st hole with what seems to me a very strong 2nd: attractive yet fearsome in aspect, tough yet forgiving in play: the (scary-looking, uphillish) tee shot demands in fact only 175 yards of carry, and the (blindish) approach shot, although long, ends with a sunken green that gathers long iron/hybrid shots and funnels them onto the green like a loving hen with its chicks. Interesting: in some ways exactly what a major champion who loved to hit high fades off the tee would design, for his lesser-talented golfing brethren that is!. (I'm not going to comment/score on the hole to hole transitions, but wow- that seems like a terrific 1-2 punch at the White!). Again, some quality and hip design by the veteran, and again I think our Tommy D will be hard pressed to outdo this and to square up the match!
Peter
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Again, the stark contrast between the two courses is evident on the 2nd holes as well.
White (Nicklaus) is a dramatic, thrilling tee shot into an angle fairway that drops severely downhill around the green. It requires multiple plays to understand it, but once you see what the hole is all about...it is a BLAST to play. Truly unique.
Red (Doak) is another solid gold classic awarding winning type of golf hole. Big dune blocking your view up the right off the tee and a massive bunker lurking up the left...but totally visible. Fairway has incredible slope, undulation, and contour. Really good hole.
Such a tough call regarding a winner in this match play contest because I wouldn't choose one over the other EVERY time. I very much wanted to play BOTH every time I'm out at Dismal. But for the same logic as I used on hole 1, I'll pick the Red...because although I LOVE to play #2 on the Nicklaus most of the time...I love playing #2 on the Doak EVERY TIME.
Red up 2 on my card.
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Red 2 fairway, 5th Major, summer 2012, the Doak Tour.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20River%202012/photo-6-2.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20River%202012/photo-6-2.jpg.html)
Roughly the same spot, fall 2012, looking further left at the formidable bunker.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-42.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-42.jpg.html)
Red wins this round.
A semi blind tee shot on the Red, as opposed to 2 blind shots on the White.
2 White requires lots of local knowledge, and can be quite confusing to a club visitor.
All square.
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Red 2
A long, demanding par 4 yet, nowhere near as penal as its White counterpart. What I love about the hole is it has precisely what I mentioned the White is lacking - room to bail. There's a ton of room to play away from the bunker, and the fairway widens even further down the right hand side as you get closer to the green. Sure it's going to play longer from way over there, but you're still in the game. It's also nice to be able to hug the ground on approaches when the wind is up as the entrance to the green is inviting from all angles.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/154f673f-d1bd-4dce-b76f-c980476de6b9_zpsb9465554.jpg)
It pains me to make a pick here, as I enjoy the otherworldliness of White's second, but Red 2 is the better hole. All square.
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"A tie."
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I can't keep repeating that I'm scoring this from a complete outsider's perspective, and from photos only, and I can't keep apologizing for not deferring (as I should wisely do) to the opinions of those who have played both courses - so this will be the last time I'll do it.
Now, Red #2 seems a fine fine golf hole, but besides all I've already noted (and liked) about White #2, I also note how well it seems to lay on the land, as if it were truly 'found there'. So: after two holes, PJP scores DRW two up.
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Peter,
Have you played either of the courses at Dismal River?
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Eric - no, I've played neither course. As I note, I am the complete outsider,going only from the good photos and excellent descriptions. Also as i note, I am not deferring to the (much more worthy) opinions of those like you and Mac who HAVE played both courses, multiple times. In short, I'm....ah, darn! b
Ok, now seriously now, THAT was the last time I'm gonna repeat it!!
Peter
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Eric - no, I've played neither course. As I note, I am the complete outsider,going only from the good photos and excellent descriptions. Also as i note, I am not deferring to the (much more worthy) opinions of those like you and Mac who HAVE played both courses, multiple times. In short, I'm....ah, darn! b
Ok, now seriously now, THAT was the last time I'm gonna repeat it!!
Peter
Damn you're good. ;D
PP 2 up thru 2.
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I gotta say, I've been starring at that picture of White 2's tee shot. I really love hitting that shot. Fun!!!
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(for the record, I DID try to get Peter to join us on closing weekend last fall. He declined, graciously of course but...)
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I gotta say, I've been starring at that picture of White 2's tee shot. I really love hitting that shot. Fun!!!
I must give credit to the fine hotographers who have assisted me with the thread. The tee shot at 2 White was taken by Tyler Kearns. As were several others. Also, photos by Brandon Urban, Mike Hogan and Bruce Wellmon have been featured thus far. Including the ass pic of the dude carrying a Mackenzie bag. More to come.
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Everybody deserves an ass shot.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-38.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-38.jpg.html)
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Eric -
I'm enjoying the tour. Once again, thanks for posting this thread.
Several questions for you or anyone who has played at Dismal River. Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box? How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?
You also state # 2 is a half par hole. It looks like a beast. Is there a way to make an easy bogey on the hole?
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Eric -
I'm enjoying the tour. Once again, thanks for posting this thread.
Several questions for you or anyone who has played at Dismal River. Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box? How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?
You also state # 2 is a half par hole. It looks like a beast. Is there a way to make an easy bogey on the hole?
Yea, three putt.
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Peter, your virgin perspective is refreshing. Dismal offers a surfeit of golf riches. While my personal preference of nos. 2 is red, white is always a serious mental challenge; how much of my "power fade" do I dare accommodate? It's a difficult challenge on only the second tee box. I welcome the challenge, but I prefer the red's tee shot and exciting second to an open green if you've positioned correctly (and can control that power fade on the second shot).
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[/quote]
I must give credit to the fine hotographers who have assisted me with the thread. The tee shot at 2 White was taken by Tyler Kearns. As were several others. Also, photos by Brandon Urban, Mike Hogan and Bruce Wellmon have been featured thus far. Including the ass pic of the dude carrying a Mackenzie bag. More to come.
[/quote]
I thought that pic from the tee of #1 Red looked familiar ;)
I've failed to chime in due to my children eating up all of my free time, but I'll try something short and sweet here.
#1 - Love the tee shot on White. Love the second and third shots on Red. Red 1 up.
#2 - tee shot on White terrifies me because I love to hit a sissy, flailing fade quite often. During my hundred hile hike on Red last year, I grew to love #2 so much by the end of the day. Mostly because, as Eric said, you're always still in it. By the seventh play of the day the drives aren't going very far and you're 260 yards out when you reach your tee ball. But you can run something along the ground, get it close to the green and at least have a chance at a 4. On White, I've been in my pocket a lot.... mostly because of my abilities, but there is also a ton of trouble lurking on each shot. Red 2 up thru 2.
Thanks for doing this thread Eric. Should be fun. I'll see if I can dig up some more pictures tomorrow.
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I think 2 White is my least favorite hole on the front but I vaguely remember that beautiful quote that Eric attributes to me. I also recall finding 6 of Eric's ProV's in that gunch.
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I think 2 White is my least favorite hole on the front but I vaguely remember that beautiful quote that Eric attributes to me. I also recall finding 6 of Eric's ProV's in that gunch.
Dead men tell no tales.
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Taking it upon myself of all people to set the stage for the next round, as I guess most of the other participants are too busy with their succesful and multi-platformed lives to get a move on! (And Chris - I remember the invite very fondly, and with ever greater appreciation. I hope to one day be able to take you up on it).
An interesting one coming up: we have a Par 3 3rd on White and a Par 3 3rd on Red, and from what I've seen on past threads my first thought is to say that the tables have been turned i.e. White starts interesting and tough while Red starts interesting, but just when you thought you'd be strolling along the Red with the casual ease of Ben Crenshaw after his first smoke of the day, Tom D ratches it up with a long, tough, interesting and aesthetically pleasing/natural looking hole, while the old veteran gives the hoi-polloi a break from the tough opening with a charming but not daunting mid-length hole. (Interesting contrasts in approaches -- bam, bam, la di da versus la di da di da, bam.) I will have to wait to see fresh photos and write ups before casting my vote, but let's just say I knew this was not going to be a cakewalk, and that our Tommy has more tricks up his sleeve than a magician, the Houdini of MIT.
Peter
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Eric -
I'm enjoying the tour. Once again, thanks for posting this thread.
Several questions for you or anyone who has played at Dismal River. Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box? How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?
You also state # 2 is a half par hole. It looks like a beast. Is there a way to make an easy bogey on the hole?
Jim,
Thanks. The thread is partly therapeutic - It's helping me learn to pace myself as I tend to rush things. Also to remind me that discussing Dismal is fun - despite the another Dismal thread crowd - and that everyone who goes out there discusses and compares the two courses at the end of the day.
To your question about the line off the tee - a good line is the right edge of the fairway. A big gulp, I know! For the second, the pot bunker further up the fairway pretty much serves as a guide to where the green is...you basically want to stay to the left of it. The fairway begins to cant just a bit left to right once you're beyond the pot bunker and then falls away towards the green, feeding the ball onto the putting surface.
Is there a way to make an easy bogey? Sure. Play a 3 or 5 wood, favoring the left hand side of the fairway, repeat, then a pitch down the hill. Assuming a 2 putt, of course!
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Dismal White :)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/13f4a629-ac9d-4ac1-be55-095df93b0250_zps2b2c4a61.jpg)
Hole 3 coming up..
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elevation about 3300 feet
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Hole 3
White
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/11d90cbd-904a-450d-957a-659428663049_zpsbbcc1b56.jpg)
Red
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/405c5c53-98d4-4986-9d2b-2590adc8ba1d_zps9fa8e6c3.jpg)
Photo: Cliff Walston
Both holes are a gas, with interesting and sometimes scary greens. Both also have major hazards beckoning. Card wreckers they be. Arr!
The option to play more than one type of shot into Tom's green causes me to choose it over the White here.
Red wins. Red +1.
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John Lyon calls Dismal White (Nicklaus) a "Short" hole. I think he is spot on. In addition to having to carry the gorge, and the cool contours of the green, the bunkering is beautiful and fierce. Great hole!
Dismal Red (Doak) is a cool hole. It just lacks the character at the green, like the White's #3 does.
White wins the 3rd hole.
Match stands at +1 for Red on the MRP Scorecard.
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Eric,
Can you discuss the different shot choices into #3 on the Doak course (that color talk always confuses me).
Also, how does the choice of teeing ground play into the shot selection?
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Eric,
Can you discuss the different shot choices into #3 on the Doak course (that color talk always confuses me).
Also, how does the choice of teeing ground play into the shot selection?
Keith,
Playing from the white tees where Cliff's photo was taken (150ish) allows for a one hop shot onto the green. I've seen it done on Jack's hole maybe once before, but the slope there is more severe.
From where you and I last played the Red, up near 2 green, forget about it! All carry and tough to stop it from there.
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Eric,
Can you discuss the different shot choices into #3 on the Doak course (that color talk always confuses me).
Also, how does the choice of teeing ground play into the shot selection?
Keith,
Playing from the white tees where Cliff's photo was taken (150ish) allows for a one hop shot onto the green. I've seen it done on Jack's hole maybe once before, but the slope there is more severe.
From where you and I last played the Red, up near 2 green, forget about it! All carry and tough to stop it from there.
How steep and firm is that slope in front of Red? It looks like it would be pretty hard to run it up given the steepness unless the shot was played pretty close to the right side near the tall grass and bunker.
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The veteran has done much to make the short par 3 on White look good (as if, again, the green was found there) and to play interestingly/challenging, but it is on most days I assume a 7 or 8 iron; while on this hole Tommy has the longer Red engage on several fronts at once, including aesthetics and the options offered both by the length and the green surrounds.
So, after 3 holes, PJP scores it: DRW, 1 up.
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Kyle,
The slope is significant, but no need to worry about the firmness out there with the sand and tightly mown fescue. Dial down a trapped 6 iron all day long toward the right half of the entrance and see what comes up. I had a lot of fun at Bandon Trails recently playing this type of shot on similar slopes...I thought all of us did this. ;D
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Ah, yes...the trap draw with a 6 iron. A fine choice. But I prefer to play the weak and sloppy slice on nearly all my shots. ;)
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Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box? How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?
Jim, there really is little in the architecture of 2W to aim at or even 'tell' you where to hit it. It will be interesting to get your observations as you view the White course through these photos. I think one of the really interesting things about the design of the White is both the sheer number of blind shots AND the fact that a good chunk of those blind shots don't give the first-timer a clue about what to do. My hunch is that this might be a significant element in the polarized opinions -- those who play once or twice are put off in a big way by theses shots vs those who play multiple times who view those very same shots as interesting/intriguing (since they've learned the 'secrets')
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Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box? How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?
Jim, there really is little in the architecture of 2W to aim at or even 'tell' you where to hit it. It will be interesting to get your observations as you view the White course through these photos. I think one of the really interesting things about the design of the White is both the sheer number of blind shots AND the fact that a good chunk of those blind shots don't give the first-timer a clue about what to do. My hunch is that this might be a significant element in the polarized opinions -- those who play once or twice are put off in a big way by theses shots vs those who play multiple times who view those very same shots as interesting/intriguing (since they've learned the 'secrets')
Reminds me of a conversation I had with someone while playing golf in Ohio. Hmmm...
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(apropos of that Ohio conversation, I'm now thinking that we call the two types 'blind' and 'double blind,' since with the former you can't see the landing area and the latter you can't see the landing area AND you can't really 'see' where to hit the ball (as has been noted, you can eventually 'learn' and then remember where you're supposed to hit it but you still can't 'see' it in the surrounding landscape). hmmm...)
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"I like really difficult third holes where you won't make your round but you just might lose it." "A tie."
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A tie!!!! C'mon Kavanaugh...grow a pair...make a pick.
8)
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3 White is particularly frightening with a front pin and difficult to hold with a back pin. But, there is lots of room long. A very good "short."
3 Red, when I walked the course on Tom Doak's tour in 2012, scared the daylights out of me due to the bunker on the right that looks as if an asteroid or UFO crashed into the Earth right there. I could see never getting out of there, it is so deep. And big. Whether I have just gotten used to it over the past 18 months, or the tee angle shifted slightly, it doesn't scare me as much now.
Lack of fear = Push. Still all square.
Move that tee over just a wee bit, where one has to REALLY consider it.........
I say someone's going to hit metal or rock in that bunker one day, there's something down there. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
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Wow! Both great pictures. Love the contrast of colors. Do the holes on each course tend to play in isolation from one another or do you get longer views where other holes are visible from different vantage points?
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A tie!!!! C'mon Kavanaugh...grow a pair...make a pick.
8)
I need to see the large bunker on the Red mature visually to break the tie.
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Wow! Both great pictures. Love the contrast of colors. Do the holes on each course tend to play in isolation from one another or do you get longer views where other holes are visible from different vantage points?
Of the 36 holes maybe 6 at most are isolated. I was surprised to learn that you can even see one course from the other.
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Interesting to see the contrast in bunker placement between the two par three holes. Each hole has a large bunker and a small bunker at the front of the green, but they are positioned differently. Part of that can be explained by the fact that #3 White must be two or three clubs shorter than the #3 Red.
Thanks for the thread. Very interesting to see, and I suspect our local members are pretty stoked about now.
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Hole 4
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/aaffe6fc-30bd-44ca-a200-10e593738149_zpsdb45b973.jpg)
Photo: Cliff Walston
4 is a medium length par 4 and is probably my favorite hole on the front 9 of the Red. The land it sits on is pretty darn cool and pictures just cannot tell the whole story here. It's not often that you find a hole that, depending where you are standing in the fairway, you can have such disparity in the shot at hand. A unique hole and one that will take many many more plays for me to better understand.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/4white_zps0a6e7581.jpg)
4 White is, arguably, THE iconic hole of Dismal River. Oddly enough, it is on the flattest patch of land anywhere to be found on the 3,000 acres. What Nicklaus put in the ground here is a gambler's delight. A par 5, reachable for many, but not without considerable risk, as an enormous bunker complex stretches all the way down the left hand side of the hole, cutting into the fairway just enough to bring another deep bunker and the windmill into play. That's right. A windmill. It's real and it's spectacular! Cool green too with backboards and sideboards allowing creative shotmakers another chance to dazzle and amaze. Never will forget the ground game guru, Adam Clayman, showing us the ropes on our trip out there a few years back.
Nicklaus's 4th is one of my favorite par 5's [and it isn't even my favorite on this course!].
White wins. All square.
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Ah, this is what it's all about, on a couple of fronts. Design-wise, I've been waiting for the freedom-naturalism of Red #4, a Ballyneal-St Andrews mix of almost daunting choice, with few visual directives. Personal-taste wise, the White is hurt here by my preternatural disinterest in most Par 5s, especially those built on relatively flat land (btw, I have viewed photos/descriptions from other sources); for my tastes, you just can't DO much with that, either architecturally or in the playing. (You'll note that my view of the Red's early Par 5 was similarly affected by little more than my personal preferences in this regard). Our Tommy designs one like he does best, while the veteran produces another in a terrific series of fine holes, but this time is hamstrung by 'the form'. This one goes to the Red.
So, after 4 holes, PJP scores the match - All square.
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White 4 is the iconic hole on the course because of the wind mill...and it is a blast to play. Freedom to blast away off the tee, decision to make on your second shot...and incredible approaching options...and the green is a real winner. Wonderful hole.
HOWEVER,
Red 4 is one of the very best holes I've ever played. For my game, I actually prefer one tee box up from the one that is pictured...it moves you up and over to the right a bit. I can carry that centerline bunker...but I gotta hit a good tee ball. I can bail out left, but then I gotta come up over that ridge partially blind into the green. The green is incredible. NOW, if the wind is blowing from behind...the hole becomes a bit different and I can try to bit a bit more ballsy. Great hole...equifinality...changes with the wind. Amazing hole.
Red wins.
Red up 2 on the MRP scorecard.
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Damn, still nine weeks away from a go at 'em. I love hitting the speed slot just left of Red's centerline bunker. Wonderful photos!
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Mac,
Thanks for the reminder to play that forward tee next time we're out.
JC,
CJ is out there playing today!
Are you making a pick here at #4?
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Ali-Frazier. Duke- UNC basketball. Clemson - South Carolina football. Da Bears- Pack.
The next 5 holes are a slugfest.
White 4. Just iconic. Red 4. Genius.
White 4.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-10.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-10.jpg.html)
Red 4.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-17.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-17.jpg.html)
I love the run out on White 4. The approach, the cow rub, the punchbowl back part of the green and the damn windmill.
How many holes have you ever said, " I can get there if I hit it around the windmill."
But, Red is brilliant. Where's the wind? Can you carry the center hazard? If not, left off the tee is a narrow target and leaves a blind approach.
Lose the tee shot right, and you're totally blind down in the valley.
If the wind is behind you, can you get there?
Almost. Leaving a short, yet awkward downwind shot to a firm green.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsc79f9715.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsc79f9715.jpg.html)
Which usually goes long. This back shelf is much steeper than it looks.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsf52a2b64.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsf52a2b64.jpg.html)
Red 1 up.
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This may be the most absurd statement ever made on this website but here it goes:
Based on pictures, #4 Red may be the best hole in the world.
It's beautiful in pictures and by all descriptions plays as cool as it looks.
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Josh...
It all comes down to what you like...but there is no question that it is a world class golf hole.
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Eric,
Envy is a poor trait to cop to, but I do envy CJ, and not just today.
I've got Dismal on my weather app -- 62' and sunny tomorrow.
Put me down as a vote for Red no. 4. But I'll be on White no. 4 only a few hours before or after Red's.
Cheers.
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C'mon, Doak wins this in a romp.
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Questions for Red # 4....
1. What are your options off the tee? It looks like 3 to me....carry the centerline bunker, take a line left of it, take a line right of it. Yes? No?
2. What are the advantages/disadvantages of taking each of the 3 routes mentioned above?
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I really love both of these holes, but 4 Red is unlike any other hole. Red wins. Barely.
By the way, 4 Red is a blast to play from 3 tee (only discovered because we were chasing daylight and needed to get back to the first quickly before we could no longer see). Creates a great angle and allows the player to bite off as much as he can chew.
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You guys are making me so excited to play in the 5th major..come on June
Please keep posting the pictures
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You guys are making me so excited to play in the 5th major..come on June
Please keep posting the pictures
I'm pretty excited myself. 99 days!
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5. Return of the Jedi
White
145-185 yards
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/e32de911-7bcb-4aba-b857-dc751a36999c_zps0751a04e.jpg?t=1395332555)
This hole IS controversial. A wild, take-no-prisoners one shotter, playing uphill, 145 yards (from the tees pictured) to a saddle green where accuracy is most definitely placed at a premium. It can be a difficult hole and I rarely make 3...but for the same reason as some of the other holes out there, it's the thrill of the challenge at hand that makes me smile every time I see my (or my opponent's ;D) ball rolling back down the hill.
Red
235-261 yards
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/af1b339e-bb0b-4326-a399-d1421eb5cd57_zps8ecdf10c.jpg)
Photo: Cliff Walston
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/5th%20Major/67996e87-e9b1-491a-a5e8-fcdc55f751c1_zps2d4f40c2.jpg?t=1380589211)
Red 5 is situated at the very top of the golf course offering some awe-inspiring intergalactic views of the surrounding sand hills. You'll even catch a glimpse of the White Course. It's a unique hole, at least at this 36 hole outpost, as none of the other par 3's on property extend to 200 yards, let alone 260! Fortunately, long doesn't necessarily equate to difficult here at the 5th, as the landing area extends far and wide, making the green and surround, essentially, one giant putting surface. I guess if you made 4 (or worse) here often enough you'd disagree with me about what is or isn't difficult, but wait until you play the next hole to better understand why par IS just a number on the scorecard.
The Force is strong in this one and it wins the hole.
Red +1.
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C'mon, Doak wins this in a romp.
yes Jack would concede this match
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Eric,
I am playing Merion in May, and right now I am more excited to see the Sand Hills of Nebraska in June
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Wow, this is just wonderful, and this is the toughest round for me yet. I'm trying not to let my decision be influenced by how impressed I am by the old veteran and his team for demonstrating so dramatically (and effectively) over the first five holes that an old dog CAN learn new tricks -- not that DRW #5 needs any help/extra kudos. What a striking hole in every sense. But on the other hand, our Tommy has truly hit his stride now, the magician with more tricks than Houdini surprising even his fans with, wait for it, a 260 yd Par 3 -- and one that dances so well and in such an unforced-seeming way of the knife edge between "par is just a number" and "you can make a par". Thanks, Eric, for sharing all this wonderful golf, and excuse the choice this outsider is about to make (which I didn't expect to make nor do I like to make): but this hole is halved. When both architects surprise us so delightfully -- JN channelling old British courses like Kington and Cavendish, and TD channelling his U.S. Open Doctor -- I can't pick one over the other.
So, after 5 holes, PJP scores the match: still All Square!
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White 5 is one of the reasons I travel so far to play at Dismal. So unique. I just don't think you find a lot of holes like it. Super fun...great match play hole.
Red 5 is a really cool hole...is it a driver? 3 wood? Hell, 3 iron? Depends on wind and if you can get that ball to bounce up and/or stop.
For me, White wins this one. Coolness factor.
Red up 1, for now, on the MRP scorecard.
White is getting set for a great run of holes, IMO.
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I feel White #5 is one of the best par 3's around. Period. Every time I play 4, you can glimpse 5 in the distance up on that dune, just waiting.
I love this hole. Maybe because I dropped birdie on Mac and the Governor of South Dakota on this hole in the 2012 5th Major. 8)
Maybe, because it is truly one of a kind.
It's a bitch and the bitch is back.
White wins.
All square.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-11-1.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-11-1.jpg.html)
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the main thing with the Doak course here is the "Routing"
as immediately adjacent to the 4th green is the 8th tee
members know how the 5th, 6th, 7th are up to the left, but virgins are left with their pants down in the middle of the 8th fairway, LOL
that's when cart golf is a good thing 8)
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Gray,
You played unaccompanied? Like you said, since its a private club... members know how it is laid out. I love that walk from 4 to 5.
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Gray,
You played unaccompanied? Like you said, since its a private club... members know how it is laid out. I love that walk from 4 to 5.
yes with a friend of mine, fortunately the unaccompanied husband and wife PGA folks ahead of us didn't pick up our golf balls, nice people take the trek to DR no doubt
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I am enjoying this thread since I will be there in June, and just wondered if the 5th hole on White plays similar to the 11th at Shinnecock? Looks similar from the picture posted.
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I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White. Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it. I'm sworn to secrecy.
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I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White. Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it. I'm sworn to secrecy.
That was a good laugh on a day when my billion dollar bracket was toast by lunch time.
I'm biased of course, but I don't think I'm too far gone when I say that this feels a lot like a boxer throwing rounds to keep the TV viewers around. I've only seen White once or twice, and Red was dirt, mown prairie grass, and some hydroseed, and I've got it 4UP. The routing is as good as any in the Renaissance quiver, which is saying something.
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A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.
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A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.
Whoa, relax. I'm not raining on anyone's parade. I'm posting my opinion that this is a romp thus far. That's been said by others on this thread as well. I'm on record before about my thoughts on Dismal White. I don't think it's a bad golf course. I just think Red is one of the better routings on the planet. And the routing makes this not a fair fight IMHO.
I love that you love your golf club Eric. We should all have your passion.
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Questions for Red # 4....
1. What are your options off the tee? It looks like 3 to me....carry the centerline bunker, take a line left of it, take a line right of it. Yes? No?
2. What are the advantages/disadvantages of taking each of the 3 routes mentioned above?
Jim,
I've only walked #3 Red in the dirt, but I believe drives left to the right are faced with a blind or semi-blind approach to the green, while those favouring the left hand side get an unabstructed look.
TK
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Ben,
Can you expound a bit on your opinion of the routing? I always struggle trying to evaluate a routing, and would like to hear your reasons for calling it as good as any Renaissance has done.
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I'd like to apologize for the salty language last night. I am sorry.
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No apologies, Eric. No need. Ben accused people of lying. Very immature and mean-spirited.
In a hole by hole match play, routing is not part of it.
Hole 6!
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I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White. Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it. I'm sworn to secrecy.
That was a good laugh on a day when my billion dollar bracket was toast by lunch time.
I'm biased of course, but I don't think I'm too far gone when I say that this feels a lot like a boxer throwing rounds to keep the TV viewers around. I've only seen White once or twice, and Red was dirt, mown prairie grass, and some hydroseed, and I've got it 4UP. The routing is as good as any in the Renaissance quiver, which is saying something.
Big statement! Dismal White gets off to an absolutely cracking start. 1 to 4 is a superb stretch of holes - make that the whole front 9. If this isn't a fair fight, it's more because Dismal White is such an unusual design, that it doesn't feel right to compare it to a less "out there" course. Unlike many "unusual" designs, however (read Tobacco road), it never feels tricked up to me - just amazing fun. Not to do with the architecture per se, but the visuals, for me, beat anything in the Sand Hills or at Ballyneal - and that includes the drive out to the 1st tee (something I can't say I was enamoured by at SH but I give DW a pass as it's so beautiful by comparison) - there's a slightly ethereal feel to it driving through those big Dunes - hard to describe - just magic.
But you're right that one thing matchplays don't cover is flow. The Red is as good as it gets anywhere for that. I was delighted to see the tee to green walks there - it was like being at a compact course in the UK - literally right next to the green on many of the holes.
I agree with what you are saying here. I have White up on all holes except for #5- I think Red 5 is one of the best par threes I've ever played. I came away loving both courses, but so dearly wanted another crack at the White! Thanks for the pictures and the reviews.
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I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White. Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it. I'm sworn to secrecy.
Tom Doak and Tiger Woods in agreement on architectural principles and ideas. I am smelling future collaborations! You heard it here first.
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As you may be able to tell, the 5th on the White is a members hole. Once you have played it a couple of dozen or so times it becomes relatively simple. If there was a hole in the world where I had to play Tiger Woods for more than I would care to lose this would be it. I see value in a beautiful hole that benefits those who pay the light bills.
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Brian - nice post #110, very interesting/informative for an outsider like me. As you know, I'm going only by pictures and descriptions, and while I'm the first to admit that routing/flow is crucial (especially for me), I've simply accepted that the 'match play format' isn't very good at factoring that in, so I'm happily just going hole by hole. And so far what I see and read is pretty much what you've experienced in the playing, i.e. that White (and Red) gets off to a cracking start! Look forward to seeing and reading about all the holes to come; but fwiw coming from me, so far I have absolutely no dea how, in the latest golfweek rankings, DRW is ranked/rated some 70 or 80 spots behind the Red. Hole-by-hole, I just can't see a rout or a cake-walk at all; and the visuals, as you say, are just striking (especially as they don't feel tricked up).
Peter
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Late to the party, but here is my card...
Hole 1
W1 is a certainly a great hole. I love the roller coaster to the bottom, and I have yet to hit enough club to get to the back bowl when the pin is there. But it can be a really tough opener at times given its exposed nature and a fierce wind. More than once I have lost a ball in the wugga after a stiff/sore/hungover opening swing, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Unlike a poster above, I have an affinity for opening par 5s. Probably because my home courses (first as a kid and later as an adult) both open with par 5s. It just feels right to me. As to R1, I love the centerline bunker that always seems to be in my way in route to an interesting green complex. Unless I am out for a solitary round, I am always playing match play. And I think R1 sets up nicely for some early round fireworks. Case in point: During last years 5th Major CJ hit two great shots and had a long, difficult putt for eagle. I skanked two rather poor shots out there, leaving a blind wedge shot from the far right fairway/walkway to 2. Finding my form, I hit a great wedge to 5 feet and the hole was halved. Lots of ways to play the hole and plenty of excitement to open the round.
Red 1-0
Hole 2
Reasonable minds can differ, but W2 is my least favorite hole on the course. Someone once said "one blind shot on a hole is good, two is not." I am in that camp, primarily because of the second shot. I find every time I am out there, we do the golf cart shuffle driving up to the top of the hill searching for the right line into the green. I know it is a member's course, but 9 times out of 10, I take guests with me and its too much too early. If the hole was later in the round it might not bother me as much, but at this point, I don't care for it.
On the other hand, I love R2. It was walking up this fairway when it had just been hydroseeded (see Bruce's photo) during the Tom's course tour at the 2012 5th Major that I knew I was going to become a member. I love the massive undulations of generous fairway, the simplicity of the bunkering scheme, aggressive options, bailout options, and angles.
Red 2-0
Hole 3
A really tough call for me. Both are excellent par 3s that I like a great deal. I give a slight edge to W3 on this one. Perhaps it is a function of the flow of the course, following the brutish second with a sweetness of a short. I prefer it to R3, but by only the slimmest of margins. Perhaps with more play my opinion will change, but for now, White gets on the board.
Red 2-1
Hole 4
I love W4. The risk reward nature of challenging the left side. The iconic windmill and water trough. And a green complex that doesn't get the credit it deserves with all its backboards, side boards, small bowls, etc. But I can't help but feel like I have played it before. Its a great Nicklaus template, but a flatish par 5 wrapping left or right around a large bunker/waste area complex isn't unique. (See 8th at May River and 8th at Carlton Woods). To their credit, each hole generally has its distinguishing feature (centerline bunker at May River for example) but its not unique.
What is unlike anything I have ever played before is R4. I love the hole. Options and challenges galore. Left, right, challenge the centerline bunkers, whatever task you are up for. Easy choice for me. Red is the winner, and I really do love W4.
Red 3-1
Hole 5
Love it or hate it, W5 is unique. I believe it is perfectly acceptable to require perfection from a player. A par three with a perfect lie from your choice of yardage is the place to do it. I love the challenge. (And for quite the challenge step over to the back tees and play it from that angle with a long iron.) In the same way R4 is totally unlike anything I have seen, W5 is same for me. I do wish recovery shots from long weren't quite so difficult to keep on the green. I think it would remove some of the controversy from the hole and make it more universally loved. But I will take it as is all day and every day. This may be my favorite hole on the White.
R5 is a great hole as well. Anytime I stand on the tee of a par 3 with driver, I am taken back to Carnoustie. But to me R5's challenge is really all about length. Yes that bunker is huge and fearsome, but there is plenty of room left and it has a simple green complex funneling everything inward. Ultimately, the unique factor that carried the day for R4 takes it for W5.
Red 3-2.
Looking forward to continuing this journey. Thanks Eric for getting it started.
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Thanks for chiming in, Cliff.
And thank you for letting me use your incredible photos!
6 is coming up..
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The 6th round is another solid match up. Two short par 4's offering a chance at glory, under the right conditions, but not without a price. I like a breakfast analogy here. Both offer the full breakfast - hit it big and hope; or the short stack - hit 3 wood to the front bunker; or the continental - lay back with an iron for a full shot into the green.
I like both holes a lot, but the White adds the pretty waitress who calls you darlin', with its blind punchbowl green.
White wins. All square heading to the seventh.
6 White
348 / 313 Par 4
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/dis6_zps8e18100a.jpg)
6 Red
326 / 290 Par 4
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/11b3647a-1daf-4e27-a9f2-f2ef2b4efe70_zps46a2916c.jpg)
Photo: Cliff Walson
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in the latest golfweek rankings, DRW is ranked/rated some 70 or 80 spots behind the Red. Hole-by-hole, I just can't see a rout or a cake-walk at all; and the visuals, as you say, are just striking (especially as they don't feel tricked up).
Peter
Actually, I think it is 113 places (39 v. 152). And in a general sense, I think you are absolutely correct in that I think the White is ranked too low. But what doesn't come across in pictures but has been discussed at length is the overall difficulty of Dismal White. I love it, as do most of my guests with handicaps less than 5. We have somewhat of a masochist streak in that we love an significant challenge when it is presented in a manner that can be met.
However, my 65 year old father-in-law, who is a pretty decent stick, would play Dismal Red 99 times out of 100. White simply asks more from each shot and the penalty for not meeting the challenge is generally 20% greater. There is almost no "I got away with one" on the White, where missing in the proper spot on the Red can leave a relatively straight-forward recovery. It certainly has its impossible locations as well, but they are fewer in number. I feel magazines, when ranking non-sacred cows, really do try to take the perspective of the average golfer, which many of the raters are. From that perspective, I can see where the White may get penalized by some for its overly penal nature, particularly by those who have rated it after only one or two plays. As a member, I find I love the White much more now after having learned what tactics work best for me on particular holes, which only comes after repeat plays.
Just my thoughts on the issue. Many may disagree.
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Like White 5, White 6 is unique. Another hole that I look forward to playing when I come to Dismal...that I can't find anywhere else. I've almost driven the green and I've hit 3 iron off the tee. Super cool...super unique.
Red 6 is another really cool hole. I've seen people hit 7 iron off the tee, 4 iron, and drive the green (especially if the wind is behind you). Options and coolness. I actually really love the small details on this hole. In front of the green are some bunkers...nice punishment if you try to drive the green, but fail. However, all the long grass up by the green and those bunkers is gone. No need to search for a ball if you miss the green...it is punishment enough being short on that hole and dealing with delicate chip off the short grass hazard. NOW, if you are way short...forget about it...the ball is gone...and you deserve that.
Both great holes...but I'm giving the nod to White for the uniqueness and fun factor.
All square on the MRP Scorecard.
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Cliff - thanks much for sharing those insider's thoughts; like Brian's, they are interesting to me. I can understand what you're saying about the mid-higher handicapper, and even from photos I can see that White can be a tough test; but I've seen photos of a course like Tobacco Road too, and sorry to say I have absolutely no interest in playing that course -- there, the toughness seems both wholly manufactured and almost comical, while at the White it seems much more natural and honestly-occuring, as if the hand of man was hidden and as if the challenges it presents are only those normally inherent in a round of golf (as it's been played for more than a century.)
So to continue to #6, thanks again for the photos and descriptions, and still the string of good and interesting holes continue on both courses. But for me, this choice seems just a tad easier than the last couple, for inherent in the value of a short par 4 is both the appearance and the reality of choices, as well as a high VORD (variety of recovery difficulty) score -- and to my eyes the Red embodies/encapsulates these values better than the white. This one goes to Red for me.
So, after 6 holes, PJP scores the match: DR Red, 1 up.
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Hole 6
I do like to be called Darlin and do love the punchbowl green, but to me this one goes Red. I know it can be done, but driving the green on W6 just doesn't seem realistic to me. The way to play the hole is really straight forward. Knock it up there for a pitch into a soft receptive green. I do like anticipation of figuring out whose ball is which, but the best way to play it is right there in front of you.
On the other hand, R6's intrigue is that, at least in my opinion, the two most obvious options (full breakfast and the short stack) are often the worst choices. Its really tough to hold that green from the tee, but its so damn tempting virtually every one of my guests go for it, as I did the first few times out. Those few that don't go for it hit it up close to the green near that bunker. But unless the pin is way back, carrying the bunker and stopping it quickly with less than a full wedge is really tough. No, for me the best way to play this hole is an exercise in discretion. Much like my expanding waistline dictates the continental breakfast rather than buffet spread back at the clubhouse, a long iron way to the right in the hidden fairway landing area with a full wedge carries the day. And I have won the hole that way more often than not. The thought required on R6 puts it on top.
Red 4-2
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I have a question, because I don't know much about the White course.
Has anybody seen a player drive the 6th green on the White course? At 313 yards, it seems like a tall task, with the narrow openings and steep slopes leading up to the green. It looks like the best you can do is leave it a few yards right of the green, unless you're that rare player you cn hit a high, soft 270 yard (at sea level) tee shot.
Judging by pictures/appearances, attempting to drive the Red's par 4 6th hole is more enticing. It looks like I might be able to do it, whereas the White's design looks like a clear layup to wedge distance.
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Does the lower fairway come into play on 6th hole of White? On Google Earth, the turf looks to be a different color so I wonder if it maintained as a playable option? Looks like a 6I-9I strategy
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Judging by pictures/appearances, attempting to drive the Red's par 4 6th hole is more enticing. It looks like I might be able to do it, whereas the White's design looks like a clear layup to wedge distance.
John...I'd say that is a pretty good assessment.
Jim...Hmmm, I've only ever been there by accident! :)
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Does the lower fairway come into play on 6th hole of White?
Jim,
No. It was meant to be utilized when playing from the original (now abandoned) back tees just off the back of 5 green, which you might still be able to make out on Google Earth.
I have a question, because I don't know much about the White course.
Has anybody seen a player drive the 6th green on the White course?
John,
Yes. I have seen the hole driven a number of times, having done so myself with the wind at my back.
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Yes. I have seen the hole driven a number of times, having done so myself with the wind at my back.
Show off!! :D
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Mac,
C'mon, man. I didn't mention it was a 2 wood.
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Ah man, Eric, please don't tell me you were using a Phrankenwood! I mean, I think the world of Phil M, but there is not nor has there ever been nor will there ever be a Callaway club anywhere in my bag; call it precious of me or a petulant matter of personal pique, but ever since the ERC II and its non-conforming ways, I could never bring myself to buy anything from that company. Also, like Mac says: "Show off!"
Peter
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Ben,
Can you expound a bit on your opinion of the routing? I always struggle trying to evaluate a routing, and would like to hear your reasons for calling it as good as any Renaissance has done.
Keith,
I was fortunate to see the golf course before every bit of earth moving was complete. In pictures, I recognize everything instantly in pictures of the completed course. That's how true to the land it stayed. Even larger movements like the 13th fairway, 2 green and 7 green. The tees were all there. The greens were all there, save just a couple. The golf course routes in such as a way as to maximize interaction with long views, without having to climb a dune to do it. Every green to tee transition is short. There's tremendous variety in length and shot requirements in a close-knit routing that required minimal soil disturbance and-or construction. The holes run together in places to make maintenance easier. You can run machinery around Dismal Red easier than White, which is a product of a contiguous, manageable routing. The golf course is relatively short and yet tests lots of longer clubs. I could go on but I think you get my drift.
Routing is the soul. It affects everything. What most people miss is that world class golf courses don't just happen at the price point that Dismal Red happened. There's a million things that go into getting a golf course in the ground. Dismal Red was routed in such a way that all those million things became easier, cheaper, and more manageable right from the start. It's not that the Ren team didn't move dirt just to not move dirt. They didn't move dirt because they didn't have to. The routing did everything it needed to do for golf without moving much dirt. That impacts soil disturbance, which impacts soil quality, irrigation requirements, etc etc.
So, in my opinion, routing isn't just about minimizing transitions, or capturing views or creating variety. It's also about being supremely cognizant of what's already there, and how you can use it not only to make great golf, but also great golf that's a bit easier to maintain.
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Ah man, Eric, please don't tell me you were using a Phrankenwood! I mean, I think the world of Phil M, but there is not nor has there ever been nor will there ever be a Callaway club anywhere in my bag; call it precious of me or a petulant matter of personal pique, but ever since the ERC II and its non-conforming ways, I could never bring myself to buy anything from that company. Also, like Mac says: "Show off!"
Peter
PJP,
Mine is the original before the original. The GBBII 3+ (13 deg.). 2003 model. Best club I've ever owned. The only "wood" in my bag. And I'm freaking out right now because CJ wrote in the latest club newsletter that this season ALL TITANIUM CLUBS ARE BANNED at Dismal River due to fear of sparks igniting prairie fires. http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/10633957/titanium-golf-clubs-ignite-fires-study-finds
What am I going to do without my 2 wood???
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...of course, he was joking. ;) Still an interesting article though.
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Thanks, Eric and Mac.
Eric, I still have a Great Big Bertha II 7 wood in my bag. My friend Dusty Schmidt (a very good golfer) also carries a GBB II 3 wood. See you in a few weeks.
With regards to White #6, the fact you've driven the green is good to know. From the picture, the green appears concave, and able to "catch" long shots, but you never know until you ask somebody.
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Eric and Mac,
We've had hundreds of interactions over the years and I can quickly count you as two of the good guys. Which is why I'd appreciate if we dispense with the name calling. I try to be honest and upfront when discussing golf courses. I'm sorry if this is immature and mean-spirited to you. Frankly, I've been called far worse. One of my heroes, Gen Robin Olds, wouldn't have sugar-coated it either and as it is Mustache March, I'll follow his lead.
If you guys wish to operate in a frictionless environment (a term I stole from someone else discussing this thread with me) that's fine. I have no qualms with a group of Dismal River members wishing to ply winter away with beautiful pictures of a beautiful place. But please don't frame this activity as frank discussion about architecture. It insults the quality of the work done at Dismal Red. It also doesn't help matters that any naysayers are quickly smote as not appreciating the fine details of Dismal White because they haven't played it enough. Which means that the only valid opinions on this thread have been those that are members of the club, or are in agreement with you. This is unhealthy for a website with our pedigree.
I'll demure from further discussion because it's better that way. Please enjoy your winter diversion/getting pumped about summer thread.
Eric asked me to post my card. Through 6, DR Red 5Up.
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Eric - ah, you've restored my faith in you, which is my faith in humanity!! (But remind me not to play you in a match, even with all the strokes I'd asked for; someone who only carries one wood, and that from 2003, is way too good a golfer for me!)
Ben - good post #130; another time on another thread it would be good to explore this some more. Your post reminded me of my questions when I first got to gca.com, and of how America's guest Tom Huckster was continually going on about his inability and lack of interest in judging the architecture, and about how all he could justifiably do was comment on the course -- his point being, I think, that he didn't know (and couldn't know, and didn't really care) about how well an architect 'utilized the site's existing features' or how brilliantly on a tough site he 'routed a course' etc etc; all he knew and could comment on was how the existing course 'played for him on the day he played it.' Now, I took a different approach then and I guess I still do -- in essence, I think there is a magic and an art to what an architect does and how I experience the course, and questions like routings do impact my experience. Also, I've often mentioned how the flow/routing are very important to me; how I'd happily accept a so-called 'transition hole' if it meant that the routing was compact and the flow lovely; I don't need "18 great holes". Now, you've had a special experience there at DR, in that you saw the Red being contructed and understand in a fundamental way how a million choices have come together to create this all important flow and ideal routing and how it will impact maintenance etc -- and so that has to (and it should) affect your view of the finished product. But, and here's the question for another time: Should it affect my view of that same product? You suggest that Mac and Eric might not be engaging in a frank discussion about the "architecture". But might it be that they are instead simply choosing to have a frank discussion about the "courses"? And if so, is there anything wrong with that, or invalid about it? If so, it would seem to suggest that only those present during construction of a course could meaningfully comment, and I don't think that's what you mean to suggest.
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Peter,
Let's table that discussion. I'd like to talk about that stuff, but this isn't the place.
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Ben,
Please point to where I called you anything other than 'dude'. Please allow me to point out it is you who has freely admitted on this forum that self awareness was not your strong suit.
My post last night was reaction to this comment:
I don't think I'm too far gone when I say that this feels a lot like a boxer throwing rounds to keep the TV viewers around.
Please explain to me how I have misunderstood you here? You once posted that you had felt for a long time that my goal was to sway public opinion regarding the Nicklaus course. You offended me then and you offend me now.
As for your other ramblings above, I have no further comment.
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Ben...great post about the routing and building of Red. When people begin to realize all that, the true brilliance of the course shines through even more.
On your other post...I agree. We want honest and up-front discussion. Which is why you insinuating we are liars is WAY over the line, which you did when you said our commentary was akin to a boxer throwing rounds to keep the match interesting to the end.
NOW, if you disagree with which holes I like...I couldn't care less. There is plenty of disagreement on which holes are better...that is what makes for fun discussion. You have Dismal Red 5 up...good! No issues there at all, I certainly would never insinuate you were lying about that being your opinion on the holes. But to say other people's true and honest opinions are like a boxer throwing rounds is insulting. Eric isn't putting up with that...and neither am I. No need for name calling...you insult me, I will tell you how I feel about straight-away.
We've had these type of inter-actions before...and both of us being military people, we both know this stuff happens. In my opinion, you were out of line...you were called on it...you can review what you said and agree (or disagree) with my opinion of it. Then you can keep on keeping on...or change your tune. That is up to you...but I will not be called a liar and stand for it. HOWEVER, neither will I dwell on it and let it bother me moving forward. So, again...look at what you said...and how you said it. I believe you were out of line. I've moved on...and awaiting hole 7.
And, again, your post #130 was EXCELLENT and demonstrates why you are a very valued member of this site.
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A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.
Eric, You must realize this is GCA and anything less than a 10 & 8 result in favor of the chosen one will be met with pitchforks.
Though I have not played either I cannot see how anyone would possibly prefer red #5 over white #5 unless. Tom needs to get him a few pair of those Wrangler jeans that Dale Jr. and Favre are shilling for... the extra room in the posterior seems a necessity.
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I'm a live and let live guy and have no issues with who likes what hole or course.
I have fun playing the White.
I believe there are some very good holes on that course.
I think the Red is way better and so it is hard for me to really dig into a match.
But, when we talk about 6 white, in all my rounds there that hole is where I've spent the most time walking around in the brush trying to find balls hit into the native.
It is a longish iron, hybrid or 3 wood to the flat, and a short club to the green....pretty much every time.
I've seen many players go for the green, hit what looked to be great shots, and never find their ball.
The punch bowl green is interesting in that most of the time you have no idea where your ball has ended up until you get to the green.
Red 6 is a completely different animal, maybe not as much whimsy, but still a decision every time off the tee. If I'm scoring a boxing match, I'd have it 10-7 on this hole with white being saved by the bell.
But, to each his own. And to be clear, when I visit DR, I'm playing both courses, maybe the red more then white, but still playing both.
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A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.
Eric, You must realize this is GCA and anything less than a 10 & 8 result in favor of the chosen one will be met with pitchforks.
Though I have not played either I cannot see how anyone would possibly prefer red #5 over white #5 unless. Tom needs to get him a few pair of those Wrangler jeans that Dale Jr. and Favre are shilling for... the extra room in the posterior seems a necessity.
I've played both holes over a dozen times and I prefer the Red...what does that make me?
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The first observation I have, is that with the land given, it seems nearly impossible for a bad course to be built in the sand hills. All of it truly seems, just mow it and play. That's not to take away what either course is. In fact I think that's what makes Dismal so interesting.
From pictures and descriptions, I don't know how any club anywhere could have two such extremely different courses. It's quite a testament to both designers (and I say both, because clearly the White course is very different from the other offerings in the sand hills) that they could work with similar land and build something so different...and I think that's great!
This is an excellent thread...Eric, thank you for starting and everyone else, thank you for participating. I'm enjoying following along.
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Ben,
Thanks for the response. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I have a few more questions.
1. Do you think that understanding a routing depends upon being involved from the construction phase like you were at Red?
2. Do you think understanding a routing depends upon your knowledge of the maintenance procedures and how the routing plays into them?
I ask 1 and 2 because I will never have full knowledge of either, and wonder if understanding how to evaluate a routing is just not going to be in my future.
Finally, I always find it easier to conceptualize an idea when I can see a tangible example. To that end, you said that the Red was "as good as any" in the Renaissance quiver. Are there any examples of Renaissance routing that you think the Red is better than, and can you explain why? I think that would help me understand your post a bit better.
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A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.
Eric, You must realize this is GCA and anything less than a 10 & 8 result in favor of the chosen one will be met with pitchforks.
Though I have not played either I cannot see how anyone would possibly prefer red #5 over white #5 unless. Tom needs to get him a few pair of those Wrangler jeans that Dale Jr. and Favre are shilling for... the extra room in the posterior seems a necessity.
I've played both holes over a dozen times and I prefer the Red...what does that make me?
Dirt?????
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If I told you how many posters have sent me PMs in the last few days you wouldn't believe me, but let's just say they number literally in the hundreds, maybe even in the thousands! Now, modesty keeps me from quoting them directly, as they are nearly unanimous in their praise and embarrasingly lavish in their compliments regarding my gca tastes and insights; but if I were to summarize, the message has been loud and clear: YOURS is the only scorecard that matters, PJP, and the only one we're interested in.
So, for all who have been so kind to write, my gift back to you -- a recap of my card: after six holes, PJP scores this DR Red, 1 up.
PJP
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YOURS is the only scorecard that matters, PJP, and the only one we're interested in.
;D ;D ;D
Love it!
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Ben,
Thanks for the response. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I have a few more questions.
1. Do you think that understanding a routing depends upon being involved from the construction phase like you were at Red?
2. Do you think understanding a routing depends upon your knowledge of the maintenance procedures and how the routing plays into them?
I ask 1 and 2 because I will never have full knowledge of either, and wonder if understanding how to evaluate a routing is just not going to be in my future.
Finally, I always find it easier to conceptualize an idea when I can see a tangible example. To that end, you said that the Red was "as good as any" in the Renaissance quiver. Are there any examples of Renaissance routing that you think the Red is better than, and can you explain why? I think that would help me understand your post a bit better.
Keith,
1) No I don't think so. I think you got to look at the obvious stuff, like how easy the course walks or how close greens are to the next hole's tee. And let's be clear, I was only there for 8 days, so I'm not expert. Other things like ascending large elevation changes without too much climbing, or including quintessential views without walking up the side of a dune help. Other things to look for? How do the fairway and green surround edges fit with the ground outside of it. Are there large lines of demarcation? Does it look like it was sitting there that way? These things are all viewable after the course is built.
2) Maybe. Before I got into all this I wouldn't have any idea that Red is easier to maintain. But think of it this way. With features like free flowing tees, large green surrounds, holes that lack disjointedness and follow natural land movement; it would naturally follow that it's easier to move around the golf course. I also would've had no idea that reducing soil disturbance maintains the macroporosity and natural chemical balances of soil, which in the case of Dismal River, just happens to be damn near USGA spec sand. Soil is a pesky thing. It responds to every single thing around it: air, water, traffic, content, etc. Being careful with that peskiness is just smart, IMHO.
I think Pac Dunes is a real gem (like really really good). I've never played any of Tom's OCONUS courses, so I can't comment there. I'm on record as putting Ballyneal in the same category as NGLA or Pine Valley for me, so I won't compare it to that. So let's go back to Pac Dunes. I think Red is routed better than Pac Dunes. Here's two very basic (no need to go into maintainability and "backdrops") reasons why. 1) Most obviously, there are no green to tee confusing crossover walks. This doesn't ruin my day at Pac, but it's noticeable. 2) Pac has no less than 2-3 holes that are better than anything at Red. Some of those holes required concessions in my opinion and led to what some call "connector" holes. For this reason the plain-crossing par 5's at Pac could be accused of not being as exhilarating at the par 5's at Red. Though 8 and 10 at Red are also used to cover large swaths of ground to get from one end of the course to another, they are better connector holes in my mind.
Hope that helped.
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Ben,
I am not sure whether that helped or not! I am going to have to try and digest it. For now, I am going to continue to judge routing solely on green to tee walks!
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If you guys wish to operate in a frictionless environment (a term I stole from someone else discussing this thread with me) that's fine. I have no qualms with a group of Dismal River members wishing to ply winter away with beautiful pictures of a beautiful place. But please don't frame this activity as frank discussion about architecture. It insults the quality of the work done at Dismal Red. It also doesn't help matters that any naysayers are quickly smote as not appreciating the fine details of Dismal White because they haven't played it enough. Which means that the only valid opinions on this thread have been those that are members of the club, or are in agreement with you. This is unhealthy for a website with our pedigree.
If you guys wish to operate in a frictionless environment . . . please don't frame this activity as frank discussion about architecture . . . naysayers are quickly smote . . . . unhealthy for a website with our pedigree.
That Ben's points are valid is confirmed by the fact that he is being falsely accused of calling people "liars" for expressing a contrary opinion.
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I am probably about to step in it, but in the spirit of frank and open discussion (with not as much consideration for contributing to a "frictionless environment"- thanks Ben Sims), here it goes. Basis: two full rounds plus two nine-holers on the White Course and 27 holes on the Red, starting on #8 for 9 holes, and #9 for 18.
The White has about everything most here would like less for three things, it is probably very difficult to walk (didn't try it myself), it has the wrong brand on it, and it is a difficult test for most golfers. I have it very high on my personal list and can't think of a single hole which makes me scratch my head. True, it has a ton of quirk and, as John Kavanaugh demonstrated often, it rewards specific course knowledge. It is a course which would take me many rounds to fully comprehend, particularly as conditions and set-ups differ.
The Red may very well be a great course. A reason I am returning this year is because I wasn't able to form an opinion based on its pre-opening condition, starting on the 8th and 9th holes, and concentrating (unsuccessfully) on a difficult match against the pro and his ringer. Unlike Ben, I didn't get the feel that it was a particularly outstanding routing- though it could be- and it was certainly not an easy walk (a reason why a number of participants rode carts for the 18-hole match). I understand that there might be a couple bridges installed to shorten some walk-arounds. We did play a very short set of tees, maybe 6200 yards, which despite having a rather poor round, still allowed me to score in the 70s. Compared to now, the vibe there and right after the 2013 5th Major vis-à-vis the Red was more subdued.
The White and the Red are two very different courses, which is a great thing for the members and their guests. Any type of hole-by-hole playoff is highly dependent on the relative value a person attributes to playability and challenge. I haven't played Pine Valley so I am probably out of line in using it for comparison, but the White is more in its genre as the Red is in CPC's. In effect, the White is a fantastic championship course; the Red might be a great club course. And we do like club courses on this site.
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On the iPhone, so I'll be brief.
As with R 4, R 6 is full of options. Options trump the great punchbowl on White.
Red +1.
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7
Portrait in Sepia
I will judge the 7th holes based solely on these photos taken during the single elimination playoffs at the last couple of 5th Majors.
7 White
437 Par 4
2012 5th Major Playoff
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3834/13317701505_b67a74fee2_o.jpg)
7 Red
388 Par 4
2013 5th Major Playoff
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/650e7cb7-b661-4a18-a70b-85156bf3b268_zps48ffb043.jpg)
Red wins and goes to +1.
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Eric,
Please don't feel forced to make this thread less than it is. I would like to see some discussion on the seventh holes.
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Eric - F.U.N. thread!
I do not think Cap'n Sims is wrong in his view that the Red course has better flow, that's his view and I happen to concur. However, I believe the exercise at hand is a hole-to-hole contest. In the Sandhills, there are a ton of great holes and many seem surprised how high many hold the White course. Me? I'm proud of them both, they "feel" and play different, and that is a good thing. Variety abounds and (to me) sameness is an utter bore.
I do think Cap'n Sims (having previously spent time with him) probably would have chosen different words rather than the appearance of questioning motives of the people participating in, and adding to, the thread. They too, are entitled to their opinion on what looks to be a fun oriented thread. We aren't curing disease here.
I also think its cool to see both members, guests, and people who were involved alike excited about special and unique golf holes. That really is the name of the game. So far, not a stinker in the bunch! I bet some here are surprised!
My own opinion is the Red may be the best course built in a very, very long time, and it certainly needs some time to mature. Unique and truly outstanding site, outstanding architecture and flow, great variety and fun holes, a lot of turf to mow but innovative in spades. Simple, beautiful. All who played it last year did so when the course wasn't officially open, and we have added a cool bridge to ease a walking constraint so I expect to see Lou do so this June ;). We'll see how she comes out of winter and then determine when we will have the official opening - we have no reason to be in a hurry. It may be this year, it may even be next year. These things take time, just as it takes time to learn a course.
My own scorecard:
Hole 1: Push between to very fun starters.
Hole 2: Red wins +1 with an outstanding hole. White may catch up after some enhancements under consideration.
Hole 3: Push between two neat 3 pars.
Hole 4: Push between two really fun yet hard to compare holes.
Hole 5: Red wins +2, White may close the gap after some enhancements under consideration.
Hole 6: Red wins +3, White may win after some enhancements under consideration.
Hole 7: Push on two challenging 4 pars. I do love the distant blowout backdrop on Red 7!
Thanks again, Eric. Passion matters!
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My own opinion is the Red may be the best course built in a very, very long time
Is that the one that serves the fist-sized pork chop?
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I've missed quite a bit but one thing that struck me is how nobody seems to hit the fairway on Nicklaus 6. In however many go arounds it seemed like there were lots of balls in the gunch despite being one of the few holes where most guys didn't hit driver.
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Eric - yes, stay in this if you will. Like Chris J, I'd like to think that Ben probably would've preferred to use words that didn't appear to be questioning anyone's motives. (If he actually was, I don't know why folks do that -- it's seems so much easier and more respectful to say "I think you're wrong".) Anyway, on to the No. 7s, and here again that crazy thing called personal preference (even when it doesn't serve one's own ends) comes into play. From other places I've looked at, the Red's Par 4 is (not surprisingly) challenging and interesting and ends with a terrific green; normally I'd give that the 'win', but darn if I don't have an unusual affection for dog-leg lefts, like White's long Par 4. Most of the time, I am the classic rabbit who wants to feel like a tiger; but this is mitigated by my underlying search for truth in all things, and so once in a while I want the architect to pull no punches, to present an honest and straightforward challenge that is above my weight and that says openly and without apology: "This is for tigers; you rabbits will have to play for a 5, and you'll get your 5, but only if you're honest enough and humble enough to admit your own rabbitness to yourself". I think it's good for the soul for a golfer to confront this at least a few times around, and White's #7 achieves this end admirably. For the second time on the front 9, I see this hole as halved.
So, after 7 holes of the Dismal River Challenge, the status remains unchanged, and PJP scores it (on the only scorecard that matters) DR Red - 1 up.
PJP
Edit: Chris J - I've never been to DR and even if I had been you certainly don't need my advice, but what's all this 'enhancements under consideration' on some of the White's opening holes? Again, just the opinion of one set of eyes, but to me the white has a terrific stretch of opening holes there, and they look fine just as they are. I hope one thing under consideration is giving those holes and the course a chance to 'breathe' -- to be the course it wants/was meant to be even if not everyone immediately jumps up and down about it. (I have a feeling that one of the reasons we love some of the hundred year old courses we love, especially those in the UK, is that they got to breathe for decades and decades until most of their early critics were too old or too dead to care, and by then the course's uniqueness was so well established that no one dared change them.)
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As much as I'm enjoying this thread, I have to wonder how the competition will fare in another year or two, after Red plays the way it was designed and built to play, but has not yet had time to grow into.
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White 7 is a classically good golf hole. Longer par 4 which plays downhill on the tee shot and uphill on the approach. Bunkers on the inside of the dogleg to catch greedy shots and an elevate green with unique slopes that can be used to feed the ball to the hole (watch Kavanagh play, it. Wow!).
Red 7 is a solid hole, but my least favorite on the course. For me, the tee shot is a bit awkward and although the fairway does open up over the mound off to the right, I'm still not sure how much.
White wins. White +1 on MRP scorecard.
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I am a little late to the party but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents. On my scorecard I have the Red course up by 2.
I have played the white course 8 or 9 times and the red 2 or 3 rounds. I also admit that I am a little biased toward courses that call for the ground game and I love using a putter whenever possible.
Brian S here is a picture of #7 from the tee. Ideal drive is over large bunker on right giving you a nice view of the green, although when I played I tended to play safe out to the left which left a blind approach.
(http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/mhogan21/DSC00394_zps111df7dc.jpg) (http://s1177.photobucket.com/user/mhogan21/media/DSC00394_zps111df7dc.jpg.html)
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White 2
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/b2d18c96-73bf-4d16-b488-50ad6566a5fc_zpsf07d2915.jpg)
Are those cattle in the distance and, if so, how are they kept off the course - is there is hidden valley/fence keeping them away?
Is the green in the background (on the left in the photo) being hand-mown?
I love this landscape. Seems like you could put a million holes out there and still have room for more. :)
atb
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On the iPhone again.
7 White is probably the most traditional hole on the course. Long and stout. Probably a 4.5 par for me. The uphill second shot is quite long.
7 Red. Like Mac I'm thinking the play is further right off the tee than what looks correct. And for some reason I can not get the uphill approach correct on this hole. From the back tees, this is a completely different hole. Then, the bunker dominates your choice off the tee.
Tradition wins. White.
All square.
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7
Portrait in Sepia
I will judge the 7th holes based solely on these photos taken during the single elimination playoffs at the last couple of 5th Majors.
7 White
437 Par 4
2012 5th Major Playoff
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3834/13317701505_b67a74fee2_o.jpg)
Eric,
One of the things I enjoy about the white course is the options available around the greens. In the above photo, I had no desire to flirt with the false front/steep approach and risk a big number and get knocked out, so I opted to use the big slope left of the green and filter my chip back to around 15 feet to guarantee at worst a 5.
TK
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The 7th hole
white red looked very narrow in the landing area when Doak led us around in the dirt a few years ago, and checking on google today it still appears that way. The hole plays +/- 440 yards and there is very little fairway between 210 - 250 yards from the tee. The seems like a mighty carry for nearly everybody, however being forced to lay back that far doesn't seem all that thrilling an option. What am I missing?
TK
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White 2
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/b2d18c96-73bf-4d16-b488-50ad6566a5fc_zpsf07d2915.jpg)
Are those cattle in the distance and, if so, how are they kept off the course - is there is hidden valley/fence keeping them away?
Is the green in the background (on the left in the photo) being hand-mown?
I love this landscape. Seems like you could put a million holes out there and still have room for more. :)
atb
Hi, Thomas. Thanks for chiming in.
Yes, those are cattle. The immediate 3,000 acres surrounding the golf courses are home to quite a few of them, with fencing along the boundaries.
That green you are asking about is the 3rd green, though I do not know which type of mowers are used to mow it. There is a path along the rear of the green, so a riding mower does have the ability to access it.
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7
Portrait in Sepia
I will judge the 7th holes based solely on these photos taken during the single elimination playoffs at the last couple of 5th Majors.
7 White
437 Par 4
2012 5th Major Playoff
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3834/13317701505_b67a74fee2_o.jpg)
Eric,
One of the things I enjoy about the white course is the options available around the greens. In the above photo, I had no desire to flirt with the false front/steep approach and risk a big number and get knocked out, so I opted to use the big slope left of the green and filter my chip back to around 15 feet to guarantee at worst a 5.
TK
Tyler,
How close you were to earning your first major! Glad you'll be back to try again next year.
The 7th hole white Red looked very narrow in the landing area when Doak led us around in the dirt a few years ago, and checking on google today it still appears that way. The hole plays +/- 440 yards and there is very little fairway between 210 - 250 yards from the tee. The seems like a mighty carry for nearly everybody, however being forced to lay back that far doesn't seem all that thrilling an option. What am I missing?
TK
It is definitely tough from back there. I think most play from the 388 marker; I know I do. From there it is a much more manageable carry over the dune.
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I'm enjoying the tour very much. I'm wondering if the tall grass comes into play much on either course? Or, to get in that stuff, do you need to hit a shot really way off line?
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White 8
265 / 333 Par 4
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/fb6e2cb6-890f-4c0b-a795-32039f0cb522_zps36638ae7.jpg?t=1395515047)
The shot I look forward to the most when traveling to Dismal is the tee shot at the 8th hole of the Nicklaus course. It’s a reachable par 4, typically playing around 250-260 yards from the member tees. There is also a back tee that stretches the hole to 333 yards.
Wind is always a factor in the decision to go for it. The direct line to the green is all carry over the native and a finger of the deep, heinous bunker.There is a patch of fairway just before the green. Unless there's an unfavorable wind, say 10-15 mph, I’m more likely to take a crack at going for the green. Besides the direct route, there is another option to get there, but it requires much faith in the execution! You can try to bank it off of the big dune on the right. Taking on that dune can be dicey, but if you keep it on the inside of it, more often than not it will kick the ball down onto the putting surface. One of the great satisfactions during a visit to Dismal is watching a tee shot disappear over the dune…tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock…then seeing it reappear into the field of view, moving across the green and settling near the hole for an upcoming eagle attempt.
Looking back at 8 from 9 tee
(https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31.0-8/738259_466124760112586_1143922154_o.jpg)
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Red 8
554 / 512 Par 5
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/1d630888-69e7-422a-a267-9b48de34ca72_zps22cc97a9.jpg)
Red 8 is a very natural hole, laid out over some gently rolling terrain; just wonderful ground for golf. The hole begins on top of a dune, playing down across a field toward the entrance road.
Before and after photos:
(https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6017/5909020966_48759c0dfa_o.jpg)
The elevated tee and wide fairway provide a boost of confidence when standing over the ball.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7445/13338969994_179fba011c_o.jpg)
Lots of room to play safe, away from the hazard.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/b7adb7bb-b054-4d13-921b-a14082d4917a_zpsf9a61108.jpg)
It seems most consider it the bee’s knees and I can’t think of a thing I don’t like about it. It is a toss up between it and #10 as to which par 5 I like better on the Red.
But White gets the nod as it is in my top 5 or 6 holes at the club.
The match is all square heading to the 9th.
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I give the 8th to the White, as it seems to do what IT intends to do (as a drivable 4) a tad better than what Red intends to do (as a mid-length Par 5).
So, after 8 holes, PJP scores the match: All Square! (A different all square, arrived at much differently, than Eric's for example, but I guess that's the pros/cons of match play).
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The first couple of times I played White 8 in the 5th Major, I played it the traditional way. Hybrid. Left off the tee. Short iron in.
One time that weekend, downwind I went for it and made it. When I went home, I Google Earth'd it and am convinced that based on the wind driver is the only play. The angle of the green is far superior in going for it. It is a great drivable par 4.
In this ballot, that doesn't matter ;)
White wins.
White +1.
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White 8 is another memorable hole at Dismal. So much fun!
Red 8 is another classically good golf hole. Great speed slots, fairway contours, and a great green site. Excellent hole with an amazing back drop.
My choice for this match play contest is White. Iconic hole at Dismal...super fun!!
White +2 on the MRP scorecard.
For me, White is up, so far, because of pure fun and uniqueness of the holes. HOWEVER, Tom is about to take his course over the road and into some of the best golf holes I've ever played.
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6 Red tee shot.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps0bdd38d6.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps0bdd38d6.jpg.html)
7 Red green from 5. 6 green in the distance.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps14e4ce81.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps14e4ce81.jpg.html)
8 Red tee shot.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-44.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-44.jpg.html)
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Catching up a bit...
White draws even with Red on my card, winning both 7 & 8. I think R7 is a good hole, although I prefer the challenge presented by W7. A difficult dogleg left around a fierce bunker to a green benched into a dune, it is a par 4.5 for me, where I walk away with 6 more times that I care to admit by refusing to admit it my be a foolish mistake trying to make 4. I like the tee shot on R7 challenging the bunker on the right, but its the second shot into W7 that carries it for me.
As to the 8th, I think W8 is a really cool risk reward par 4 from the middle tees. R8 is probably my least favorite of the three par 5s on the course, although I can't articulate why. It just seems to be missing something to me. But it is a solid hole that serves its purpose of getting you from the upper portion of the course back down to begin the all world final 10 holes.
I think a better comparison would have been R9 v. W8 and W8 v. R9, but that is not the task at hand. For now, its all square, although I expect Red is about to run away with it...
A reminder that the sandhills is a wild place, W8 tee was the scene of this photo taken last year. Yes that is a rabbit in the snake's mouth. Beware of Eddie NoShoulders when tromping around the wugga.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img833/16/txwk.jpg)
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Cliff,
You saw a snake mid meal and thought that going to pick it up would be a good idea?
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White 8 is another memorable hole at Dismal. So much fun!
Red 8 is another classically good golf hole. Great speed slots, fairway contours, and a great green site. Excellent hole with an amazing back drop.
My choice for this match play contest is White. Iconic hole at Dismal...super fun!!
White +2 on the MRP scorecard.
For me, White is up, so far, because of pure fun and uniqueness of the holes. HOWEVER, Tom is about to take his course over the road and into some of the best golf holes I've ever played.
Mac,
You've used "iconic" to describe the 4th and 8th holes. I can understand the 4th hole, as the windmill makes it definitely unique and easily identifiable. I don't know much about the 8th hole and haven't seen many pictures of it. What are the defining characteristics that make it iconic in your mind?
When I think of iconic, I think of holes that would either be a) immediately identifiable if you plunked an average GCAer or even average joe golfer on the tee box (16th at Cypress, 7th at Pebble, 17th at Sawgrass, Road Hole, etc) and/or b) the hole universally identified with a well-known course (say something like the 18th at Harbourtown). Does your definition fit this, or how does it differ?
This is probably jumping ahead, but is there a hole on the Red that you think will evolve to "iconic" status? I have a hard time with it because there are so many strong holes. The 18th perhaps? I'm partial to the 14th but that may not be universally cherished enough to meet iconic status.
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Jim,
I think 18 will settle in as the iconic hole of the Red, particularly with the orientation of the clubhouse and cabins overlooking it. The cedars and rumple look good together as well. See Cliff's pic:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img27/7818/lct0.jpg)
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May have used the word incorrectly, Jim. Didn't read the exact definition of it prior to typing.
4 iconic because it is identifiable with the windmill.
8 iconic (memorable) because of how drivable it is and with the distinct bunker and alternate route to the hole.
If I sit down with people who've played the course only once and ask them what they thought of 8, they may not immediately recall what hole 8 was. But if I say, "you know, the drivable par 4 with that mound in the way and massive bunker out left." And they will always reply, "Oh yeah! I know that hole."
It is distinctive and memorable.
Iconic hole on Red. Hmmm... For me, the 9th hole is the most memorable for me because of the angled drive over the gully. But I'm not so sure everyone else would pick the same one. So, perhaps, no hole is "iconic" on the Red yet. Maybe 18, like you say...with the view coming home. Or 17, with the blind tee shot up and over the skull.
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If I sit down with people who've played the course only once and ask them what they thought of 8, they may not immediately recall what hole 8 was. But if I say, "you know, the drivable par 4 with that mound in the way and massive bunker out left." And they will always reply, "Oh yeah! I know that hole."
It is distinctive and memorable.
They will always remember the hole once you remind them of its features? That is not my definition of iconic, at all.
I think people have trouble remembering the hole because you can't see the green from the tee, and you don't quite know where everything is, even after multiple rounds. [The Road hole would have the same problem, except that you are teeing off over the corner of the hotel grounds, and everyone can remember that.]
The only people who consider it "iconic" are people who have driven the green. It is an icon to their prowess.
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Thanks Mac. I haven't played the 8th hole or seen many pictures, so was wondering what aspects made it memorable. You did a good job describing it.
The more I think about it, I agree with Eric that the 18th on Red will probably earn it.
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I found this one of 8 White in an older thread:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/DismalRiver-8copy.jpg)
Photo: Mark Saltzman
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9 White
590 Yards Par 5
Another terrific par 5 adding to the fun factor of the White. After a semi blind tee shot, the hole dog legs right to a canted fairway, with native looming down both sides. A pair of deep, hairy bunkers in and alongside the fairway set the table for an emergency strategy session, with blindness again taking a seat at the head of the table. For the second shot, an aggressive play toward the high side bunker will leave a straightforward approach splitting the two greenside bunkers. A play down the center or left hand side of the fairway will leave, at best, a more difficult angle of approach over the bunker. The green offers a little bit of everything, with a spine running down the middle sectioning it into two bowls, with a backstop allowing for more of the type shots one doesn't typically have the opportunity to play back home.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/9greenjack_zps806236ca.jpg)
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9 Red
368 Yards Par 4
Everyone hold hands - we're crossing the road. But first we have to hit it across the road. I am hoping for a photo opportunity this summer of Keith O'Halloran hitting his tee shot while the Bud Light truck drives by. Now that would be iconic!
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/74b8205d-21e2-49b4-b981-f7206e8e1146_zps59dde569.jpg?t=1395694294)
Photo: Cliff Walston
And so we hit it across the road on this cape hole, toward the mountain, avoiding the canyon on the right. Wind will dictate how much to bite off, but a good line is that crease in the mountain. From the fairway, the hole leaves you with a cool skyline approach. Pictures simply can't convey the awesomeness of that backdrop..
Neither can video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMfT-fUd-s
The 9th was one of my favorites before construction and remains so today.
Tie
All square thru 9
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#9 Red is great, an unusual design well suited for the prevailing winds.
I think "iconic" means mostly "photogenic", and usually applies to golf holes of exceptional beauty. For the Red course, the ones I consider most "iconic" would be #5 and #18. The holes that go towards the big mountains (#8, #9 and #13) are very attractive, too.
I am enjoying the tour.
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White continues to surprise and impress, and perhaps impresses more because of the surprise. (Agree with my assessments so far or not - but are there actually, as GW suggests, some 140 modern courses better than DRW? Wow. If you guys are indeed playing these 140 better courses, you're even more blessed than i'd imagined.) At the 9th, again as you know just from pictures and descriptions, my mixed feelings about almost all par 5s are strongly mitigated by two factors/features I really like - the canted fairways and the fact that it is long enough to be reachable in two by only the longest hitters, and so there are no 'mixed messages' around the green as you see on many Par 5s that try to be provide more balance/choice. (My favourite par 5 I ever played, by far, the 8th at Crystal Downs, didn't provide this balance/choice either...and it is the only par 5 I've ever loved.) Red, with all its holes, is always good, the holes always draping just so 'rightly' and the plays/options/trouble integrated so well. Perhaps, in an opposite way, I've not been surprised enough and thus am not giving Red enough credit. Be that as it may, I give this hole to DRW.
So, after 9 holes, the PJP scorecard has DRW - 1 up.
Peter
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I think JN could have done a little better routing this section of the white.
While I don't mind the 2nd part of 9W, I am not a fan of the tee shot as what Eric describes as semi blind is really only semi if you lay back off the tee. If you hit driver 250+ or so, it is completely blind. It is another hole where feast or famine awaits the drive. two guys hit driver, both look good, one ball perfect, one ball lost, is not a rare occurrence.
I am not a fan of the way JN pinched in the landing area, and not a fan of the way balls that appear to be hit perfect run thru the canted fwy into the native on the left.
While I've been on the green in two, I've learned that the best play is too lay back and keep your ball in sight and just tack your way to a short iron approach. That may be smart, but it isn't my preferred way of playing a par 5 that is often down wind and gives an average length hitter a chance to get home in two.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMfT-fUd-s
I was under the impression that the Red was a walking course and GCAers were sporting types. All that talk about the great routing; bad enough to see in this clip a young guy and two carts, but what's with driving them within a few yards from the green on a course yet to open! >:(
#9 was my first hole in the 18 hole match. Passable drive, lonnnnnnnng walk around the canyon, decent second shot that kicked left off the left side of the green complex never to be found in the natives. We do love our quirk here, and who says golf is supposed to be fair. Nice hole, but not one of my favorites.
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9 Red may be drivable for some, but not me. The temptation to bite off as much as you can is certainly there.
The tee shot, fall 2012.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-19.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-19.jpg.html)
Quite the backdrop.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps9de7be0c-1.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps9de7be0c-1.jpg.html)
From the roadside edge of the fairway.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps3ba95200.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps3ba95200.jpg.html)
A very firm and fast fairway to the green begging for the ground game.
Red squares the match.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps111ac322.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps111ac322.jpg.html)
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White 9 is a fun par 5 that requires multiple plays (or listening and playing with someone that knows the course well) to fully comprehend. And Don is right, the ideal way to play it is to keep the ball in sight and tack your way down the fairway. If you are going to challenge the hole, you need to be in the correct position off the tee...which I believe is up the right side. Green is cool.
HOWEVER, Red 9 is one of my favorite holes in the world. First off, standing on the tee box with those visuals is intense. Secondly, I love angled hazards. On this one, you can challenge the hole for birdie (heck, eagle) if you take it way up right (especially if the wind is at your back) and with that firm and fast fairway turf that ball can roll on down there a good long way. OR you can take it further up left and have a longer approach and play the safer way home. I LOVE how receptive the approach is to the ground game.
Red wins the hole.
White falls to +1 on the match.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMfT-fUd-s
I was under the impression that the Red was a walking course and GCAers were sporting types. All that talk about the great routing; bad enough to see in this clip a young guy and two carts, but what's with driving them within a few yards from the green on a course yet to open! >:(
#9 was my first hole in the 18 hole match. Passable drive, lonnnnnnnng walk around the canyon, decent second shot that kicked left off the left side of the green complex never to be found in the natives. We do love our quirk here, and who says golf is supposed to be fair. Nice hole, but not one of my favorites.
Lou,
Theres a bridge now just off 10 tee.
I'm curious as to why you included the part about your ball kicking off the left part of the green into the native. As I recall, the left side of the green slopes back into the green surface just beyond the large left side bunker(s). And there's also quite a bit of short grass back and left of the green in the form of 11 tee. Is is quirky for a low, high ball speed shot to carry through a green when it lands on it?
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Hi Lou,
I played #9 Red once, with a 5-8 mph right to left crosswind. With about 150 yards in, I hit an easy 9-iron, which I almost lost, in the native just left of the greenside bunker. I made bogey after a good recovery shot.
Given a second try., with any sort of crosswind, I'd play the approach conservatively, especially from over 100 yards away. If I have sand wedge left, go ahead and hit full spinning sand wedge. Otherwise, I'd be playing defensively, chipping something to keep it under the wind. Given that it's a short hole, I thought it was OK that the lost ball territory was so close to the green.
Also, Lou, I thought there was a more direct walking path to the fairway. If not, there should be no problem creating one.
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9 Red is an amazing, all-world golf hole. The drive over the road is a hoot and the approach shot to that green that sits on what seems like the edge of the world is full of options. Try to fly one in high and soft and hope it holds, play a little runner low, or putt one from 150 yards. So much fun. One of my favorite holes anywhere.
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Lou,
You are describing 9 correct?
Ben, are you talking about 9 or 10?
You guys may be talking about different holes.
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Lou,
You are describing 9 correct?
Ben, are you talking about 9 or 10?
You guys may be talking about different holes.
Oopsy. Keith is correct. My bad.
I'm just so giddy to get to the next hole. Might be our craziest round yet!
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Bruce,
Maybe it takes a total GCA architecture dork to appreciate how flat and featureless this approach is. Minus the impressive backdrop and "infinity" green, this would fit in at your local municipal course. No, it's too level for that. You can see how the ground slopes away just a little on each side of the green.
With firm turf and a crosswind, approach shots will be so hard to control. Maybe after studying and appreciating wild undulations and framed green sites for years, this hole looks very unusual and impressive to me. Thanks for a great picture. Somebody is going to win this hole this year by putting from 80 yards. It breaks about 6 feet right to left.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps111ac322.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps111ac322.jpg.html)
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Terrific thread. Thank you all.
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My short thoughts:
1 - Red - Red wins because of the fairway landing area for drive on White #1, which needs to be wider to the right to avoid lost balls (especially on the opening hole). You would still have blind shot from right fairway and flirting with left bunkers can get the player much closer to green. Thus, no need for tight driving area to the right.
2 - White - both very good holes. White has 2 blind shots and I understand the criticism, but I just loved playing the hole. It was a lot of fun. I found White #2 to be more fun every time that I played it. One of my favorites on the White.
3 - Red - Red #3 is a special par 3. White is solid. First hole where my decision was easy.
4 - Red - both are great holes . Red is just world class. Tough because White is the defining hole of that golf course.
5 - White - how is your quirk meter? Mine is high so I love White #5. CJ - if you are making revisions, I hope you would consider a collection area to the left of the green instead of the bunkers and high grass. It would provide a bail out area, which I think every great golf hole needs. Still, I looked forward to playing White #5 during each round - unique in the game of golf.
6 - Red - I liked both golf holes. 6 wins because I think it is again world class. White #6 approach is one fun golf shot, but needs wider/larger fairway for higher handicappers.
7 - Red - both good holes, neither is my favorite on the course. Nod to Red
8 - White - a lot of fun to play for every golfer, regardless of ability. Approach from left fairway is a very cool shot.
9 - Red - I would have picked White if the fairway was wider in the driving area (never got used to that drive). However, I LOVE the rest of the hole, especially the choices on the 2nd shot and great green complex. Red is a very good risk/reward par 4. Slight nod to Red.
So I currently have Red +3.
I did not get as good of a look at the Red back 9 so I am bowing out of the discussion for the rest of the thread. However, from what I saw, Red 14 would Baylor-Creighton White 14. My favorite holes on White back 9 were 13, 16 and 17.
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I like W9, but I love R9. W9 has a great green complex with side and back boards galore, but I agree with the others that the tee shot is a little off.
I think the cape tee shot on R9 is one of the best I have seen in that it tempts the golfer to bite off more than he can chew in part by hiding how huge the fairway is on the conservative line. I also love how the simple green bleeds into the 10th tee and how it looks so easy from the fairway but misplaced approach shots tend to fall away finding very challenging spots to get up and down from. From a conservative hybrid/fairway metal leaving a partially blind approach to a Tiger-like attempt to drive the green with a strong helping wind, this hole can play very different depending on the wind/tactics employed.
Red goes 1 up on my card.
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It's interesting to see the lack of support--comparatively--for Red #4. I think it's the best hole on the top 8 of the golf course. That green site is in the top 3-4 green sites on the property.
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Here is an excellent photo that Simon Holt sent me of the approach at 9.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/Tom%20Doak%20course%20at%20Dismal%20River/05f32ba8-9a48-4505-baba-f7106a794901_zps271fd6fa.jpg)
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Mac:
True enough, but this same quote is dredged up whenever an architect builds a hole that is just too severe -- he defends it as "controversial", hoping that the criticism will go away. In fact, often the hole is not really controversial, it's just too damned hard for everybody except the pedal-to-the-metal 2-handicap types. But I promised myself I wouldn't comment on your other thread.
They will always remember the hole once you remind them of its features? That is not my definition of iconic, at all.
I think people have trouble remembering the hole because you can't see the green from the tee, and you don't quite know where everything is, even after multiple rounds. [The Road hole would have the same problem, except that you are teeing off over the corner of the hotel grounds, and everyone can remember that.]
The only people who consider it "iconic" are people who have driven the green. It is an icon to their prowess.
Sinner ;) ;D
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In extreme winds the bunker of the left side of 9R provides needed relief.
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Sinner ;) ;D
Sure - but why are you almost always the one to cast the first stone?! :)
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Ben...
I agree with you that Red 4 is a great hole. One of the best I've ever played.
Most people detailed why they liked White 4 better, so we can review what they said. But I also think a lot of it comes down to fun. If they've had more fun playing one hole over the other, I'd guess that is why they voted the way they did.
In fact, I did that on 6. If you want to cut, and dissect, and analyze the holes for the core principles of golf hole design...Red should win hands down. That is the kind of thing I'm talking about when I constantly refer to holes as being "solid award winning holes." BUT, I picked 6 White because I have so much FUN playing the hole. It makes me smile, laugh, and hit enjoyable shots. That is why I play golf...to have fun.
So, maybe that is a reason why some people like 4 on the White over 4 on Red. But, I'm with you, 4 Red is a world class golf hole and one of my favorites.
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Sinner ;) ;D
Sure - but why are you almost always the one to cast the first stone?! :)
Because I live in a glass house.
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Yes, befitting your Iconoclast ways and Dadaist nature! JC Jones, ladies and germs: the only golfing Dadaist I've ever met!
Now, on to hole #10. (How are you enjoying my analysis by the way? I noted you weren't one of the hundreds, nay thousands, of posters singing my praises in a flurry of PMs).
Peter
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Ben, I am with you on R4 being world class and selected it as the winner on my card. I agree it is the best hole on the upper 8, in my opinion. I think many people have a bias in favor of par 5s because they often present the best opportunity at birdie/par (depending on skill level). That always leaves a warm and fuzzy feeling. Also, W4 is probably the most photographed hole at Dismal, and everyone remembers the windmill, which I personally think is cool. Those features I think elevate it on some people's card.
Cliff
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While we're waiting for the 10th, I thought someone who knew how could crop the photo Eric posted above and title it:
"Simon and the MacKenzie Bag, with Knitted Headcovers - An Approach to the 9th at Dismal Red"
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10 Red
537 Par 5
10 is one of the holes I am least familiar with at Dismal so I'm hoping others will provide color. It is a beautiful hole on some great ground with nice movement in the middle. Sorry I don't have any pictures to show you from the fairway. Probably because I've been all over the place on this one. I'm sure another season of play will yield further discovery in how best to play the hole.
Another Mackenzie bag for you, PP. ;D
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/48079983-711e-45fc-9a04-76acb86f5729_zpse93b4406.jpg)
The new bridge eliminates the walk through the canyon
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9711054052_5b882055fa_c.jpg)
CJ and JK playing during the grow in (Fall 2011)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/Tom%20Doak%20course%20at%20Dismal%20River/5ee2d523-75fa-4e08-9669-c1454c7b455e_zpsb945a097.jpg)
View from behind the green of this very natural green site
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/9707810069_f485eeebc5_c.jpg)
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10 White
150 Yards Par 3
We can debate whether or not the 10th hole at Dismal River is iconic, but one thing I think we can all agree on is that no one forgets playing it.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/DismalRiver-10_zps9ada9284.jpg)
Photo: Mark Saltzman
Just look at it. The The flowing lines. The grace. Bunker in the middle. Striking.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/Dismal%20River%20weekend%2010%201%202011/533ebc88-be09-404a-b86c-a6701da2e1c7_zpsef9958ef.jpg)
What can I say? Is this hole proof that Jack Nicklaus has a sense of humor? I think so! I'm a huge fan of the 10th, having had more fun here than I deserve. Do I want it on every course I play? Of course not. It just happens to work well on this one.
White wins. White +1
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When I played the Red course, the bridge had just been finished. What was the walk to the fairway like? Did people walk directly through? Or around on the path?
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When I played the Red course, the bridge had just been finished. What was the walk to the fairway like? Did people walk directly through? Or around on the path?
Keith - Before the bridge, the player had a very long walk from 10 tee to 10 fairway around the cavern...down to the beginning of 18 fairway, then back up and around. That, and the infant turf were why it was a "preview" year. I would suppose these impacted the initial course ratings, and I would have preferred ratings not begin until the course was officially open. Live and learn.
Ben - I agree on Red 4, one of the best holes around. Also agree with many that White 4 is a hoot of a hole.
The shot into 9 green is a half 8, 9, or wedge, and is a rare ground game opportunity as the run up may be a better shot than flying it in most days.
CJ
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Enjoying the tour, thanks Eric.
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Thanks Chris,
I guess it was impractical/impossible to walk right through the cavern?
Was the bridge always in the plan?
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Oh, the 10th hole on the White course! ICONIC!!!
Par 3 with the bunker in the middle of the Salvador Dali-like punch bowl green. WOW! Mind-bender.
Meanwhile, the 10th on the Red course is a brilliant par 5. Tee shot requires thought and strategy...where to aim...why...what's your tactical approach for your next shot? 2nd shot is the same. And once you are around the green, the fun has just begun. Excellent hole. And, let me just say this, I'm glad that bridge is there...and I LOVE that bridge.
I'm giving the hole to White. So much fun. So many laughs. Nothing but good times had on that hole by me and my playing partners. Change the pin, change the hole...hole in one pin position, the blind pin position...putting up and over the humps...avoiding the bunker. Lots of fun.
White +2 on the MRP Scorecard.
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I guess this stretch is where I turn into a Red Course homer.
The 10th on the White is good from the 150ish yard range. The front portion of the green is quite shallow, and a short iron is fine. I quite like the hole from that yardage. From 200+ back tee, it is silly. The native around the green is fairly thick, leading to a number of lost balls with long irons in play. An acceptable hole on this course, and certainly "iconic" by the definition we have been using. ;) But not a great hole to me.
On the other hand, R10 is the best par 5 on the course. The ideal line is take on the mound of native guarding the left hand side of the fairway and get a big kick forward in a generous portion of the fairway hidden from view. This give you the opportunity to go for the green in two. But the next challenge is taking on the green-side bunkers up the left hand side from a less than ideal angle. Likewise, laying up for a short iron third needs to be done with care as well. There is a large depression from 175-125ish that will leave a blind third if you are too conservative in your lay up. The best angle is from the right hand side of the fairway from about 100, and of course there is a fairway bunker to catch sloppy shots there too.
Great hole. Red 2 Up.
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Thanks Chris,
I guess it was impractical/impossible to walk right through the cavern?
Was the bridge always in the plan?
Keith.
The bridge was always in the plan but we fussed a bit over where it would be. and we also wanted the style to fit the rest of the property. In the end, we all agreed we didn't want to overwhelm the architecture, so we located it in a cool place yet out of the way.
It was done by Moosman Bridges, up north in Valentine, Nebraska. They did very good work.
CJ
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Another tough choice for the outsider, and so he must again rely on that most unquantifiable of measuring sticks, i.e. the subjectivity of personal taste and preference. Good on White for starting the back 9 with such a striking and interesting Par 3 -- but I guess I like my architects with slightly less humour (the idea I think is to give the putter a roller-coaster ride, not an actual roller coaster); and as well, somewhat like the 12th at Augusta, the problem/test isn't going left or right but long or short, since the greens are wide but narrow; and downhill and exposed like that I don't trust my 8 iron re distance control. The Red's Par 5 meanwhile 'sets up' beautifully, the vista from the tee and its relationship to the design seems spot on, and (from other sources I looked at) the design/topography and green site keeps things interesting even for me (who usually just sees an meh/blah 2nd shot lay up on most Par 5s). So, I give this one to Red.
As we come fully into the back nine, and after 10 holes, PJP's scorecard (again, the only one that matters) now has it All Square!
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10 Red tee shot, CJ, fall 2012.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-20.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-20.jpg.html)
The bridge.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsef047597.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsef047597.jpg.html)
Fairway, fall 2012.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-21.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%20Fall%202012/photo-21.jpg.html)
And greenside.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsa5bd6d3f.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsa5bd6d3f.jpg.html)
As much as I like 10 Red, a strong par 5, I like 10 White, which is really 2, if not 3, holes "in one."
Push, All Square.
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Did we really get past 8W without mentioning Jonathan Cummings making an albatross hole in one? On a similar note the front positions on 10W make the hole the longest par 2 I have ever played.
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Thanks for this, Eric. All us newbies at the 5th Major this year are thankful we now don't have to go in completely blind.
Question about 10W, what's the play when the pin is directly behind the bunker? Do you work the ball around the bunker using the contours of the green or do you try to carry it completely?
I'm going to sleep well tonight imagining rolling it around the left side and down that enormous slope.
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Mark,
When the pin is on the back you fly your ball over the bunker. The back portion is also a large bowl but for reasons I can not figure out difficult to hit. In the back position 10W becomes a very short par 4. I would guess that over 50% of the people who play the hole end up short on the front portion which makes for a very interesting but difficult 2 putt.
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With an extra club, the back pin is definitely birdie country.
Both these 10s are immensely special and satisfying, each in its own unique way. Call it even on the back side. I love 'em both.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/164491_492907250767670_902369584_n.jpg)
White v Red will continue with a private tasting later this summer at Dismal River. I invite all of you who are coming out for the 5th Major to stop by cabin # 4 at 11:00 PM on Thursday, June 26 for the conclusion of this exercise. No electronic devices will be allowed, with the exception of my iPad, as I'm hoping to have Master Sommelier Peter J Pallotta facetiming us with his selections.
Again, thank you for indulging me!!
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I'll wrap up my match play and thoughts on the courses and be done.
As it stands I have White +2.
Hole 11 Red wins (one of my favorite par 3's)
Hole 12 Red wins
Hole 13 White wins (there are secrets in regards to playing this hole, fun when you unlock it)
Hole 14 Red wins (this begins one of the greatest stretches in all of golf, IMO).
Hole 15 Red wins
Hole 16 Red wins
Hole 17 Red wins
Hole 18 Red wins
For the Match, Red (Doak) wins +4.
Overall, I think White (Nicklaus) is a fun and unique course in an amazing location.
While I think Red, is one of the very best golf courses ever built. Not only are the holes amazing, the routing excellent, and the setting iconic...but the construction and maintenance plans/process are something extra special.
GALATIANS 6: 7-9
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Mac,
Thanks for your back nine views. You are right, that closing stretch at Red is all-world.
Jim
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Thanks, Eric.
Best
Peter
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Eric,
You are one of the best and its nice to see people actually excited about something! Fun thread. Fun guy. Thanks.
CJ
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Lou,
You are describing 9 correct?
Ben, are you talking about 9 or 10?
You guys may be talking about different holes.
I thought I was. Is there not a canyon or depression to cross on the tee shot on #9 and a considerable walk-around? It was the 9th, our starting hole in Match 3 of the 2013 5th Major where I tugged my punch 9 slightly into the natives.
Apparently I am mistaken on the bridge. I thought that there was some talk about two or more bridges including one from #9 tee to the fairway. Mistaken again?
Lou,
Theres a bridge now just off 10 tee.
I'm curious as to why you included the part about your ball kicking off the left part of the green into the native. As I recall, the left side of the green slopes back into the green surface just beyond the large left side bunker(s). And there's also quite a bit of short grass back and left of the green in the form of 11 tee. Is is quirky for a low, high ball speed shot to carry through a green when it lands on it?
No ill motive. I was describing a shot I hit which though I tugged slightly, the results greatly surprised me. It was a conservative play with the expectation that the ball would kick right if anything (as you note, the slope is back toward the green, which is my recollection as well). It did not go through the green, it just went left, and it did appear quirky given the wind and the shot (God, what I would give for a high ball speed!). At worst I had expected a moderately difficult chip. Perhaps it is not quirk as the course was new.
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Lou,
You are describing 9 correct?
Ben, are you talking about 9 or 10?
You guys may be talking about different holes.
I thought I was. Is there not a canyon or depression to cross on the tee shot on #9 and a considerable walk-around? It was the 9th, our starting hole in Match 3 of the 2013 5th Major where I tugged my punch 9 slightly into the natives.
Apparently I am mistaken on the bridge. I thought that there was some talk about two or more bridges including one from #9 tee to the fairway. Mistaken again?
Lou,
Theres a bridge now just off 10 tee.
I'm curious as to why you included the part about your ball kicking off the left part of the green into the native. As I recall, the left side of the green slopes back into the green surface just beyond the large left side bunker(s). And there's also quite a bit of short grass back and left of the green in the form of 11 tee. Is is quirky for a low, high ball speed shot to carry through a green when it lands on it?
No ill motive. I was describing a shot I hit which though I tugged slightly, the results greatly surprised me. It was a conservative play with the expectation that the ball would kick right if anything (as you note, the slope is back toward the green, which is my recollection as well). It did not go through the green, it just went left, and it did appear quirky given the wind and the shot (God, what I would give for a high ball speed!). At worst I had expected a moderately difficult chip. Perhaps it is not quirk as the course was new.
Lou,
If you continue down the thread a bit from Keith's reminder you'll see that I goofed and was describing Red 10. Yes, the left side of 9 green can thwart even decent shots. I see your point now.
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I'll wrap up my match play and thoughts on the courses and be done.
As it stands I have White +2.
Hole 11 Red wins (one of my favorite par 3's)
Hole 12 Red wins
Hole 13 White wins (there are secrets in regards to playing this hole, fun when you unlock it)
Hole 14 Red wins (this begins one of the greatest stretches in all of golf, IMO).
Hole 15 Red wins
Hole 16 Red wins
Hole 17 Red wins
Hole 18 Red wins
For the Match, Red (Doak) wins +4.
Overall, I think White (Nicklaus) is a fun and unique course in an amazing location.
While I think Red, is one of the very best golf courses ever built. Not only are the holes amazing, the routing excellent, and the setting iconic...but the construction and maintenance plans/process are something extra special.
GALATIANS 6: 7-9
Am I the only wondering where Mac had to rush off to?! Or maybe he fainted?
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I'll wrap up my match play and thoughts on the courses and be done.
As it stands I have White +2.
Hole 11 Red wins (one of my favorite par 3's)
Hole 12 Red wins
Hole 13 White wins (there are secrets in regards to playing this hole, fun when you unlock it)
Hole 14 Red wins (this begins one of the greatest stretches in all of golf, IMO).
Hole 15 Red wins
Hole 16 Red wins
Hole 17 Red wins
Hole 18 Red wins
For the Match, Red (Doak) wins +4.
Overall, I think White (Nicklaus) is a fun and unique course in an amazing location.
While I think Red, is one of the very best golf courses ever built. Not only are the holes amazing, the routing excellent, and the setting iconic...but the construction and maintenance plans/process are something extra special.
GALATIANS 6: 7-9
Am I the only wondering where Mac had to rush off to?! Or maybe he fainted?
Eric, Mac, is that the end of the thread? I was enjoying the hole by hole comparisons, so, I hope not.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/164491_492907250767670_902369584_n.jpg)
White v Red will continue with a private tasting later this summer at Dismal River. I invite all of you who are coming out for the 5th Major to stop by cabin # 4 at 11:00 PM on Thursday, June 26 for the conclusion of this exercise. No electronic devices will be allowed, with the exception of my iPad, as I'm hoping to have Master Sommelier Peter J Pallotta facetiming us with his selections.
Again, thank you for indulging me!!
That's just plain wrong. I was looking forward to the rest...
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Eric, Mac, is that the end of the thread? I was enjoying the hole by hole comparisons, so, I hope not.
If so, Mac's last post may give the reason.
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I feel compelled to finish my thoughts.
11: I struggle on 11White to negotiate the fairway bunker, leaving a blind shot to a spectacular green. (Wish I could see the green from the fairway.)
Red, a mid range par 3, also has a green full of movement. + 1 for that lower bowl.
Red wins, +1.
12. White has another strong par 5, Red with a par 4, highlighted by a green perched hillside.
Push.
13: Red wins, with a brute of a par 4. Red +2.
The tee shot.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps3d836c0a.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps3d836c0a.jpg.html)
The approach.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsdd80baeb.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zpsdd80baeb.jpg.html)
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14. Red has a par 4 with twin mounds to the sides of the landing area which can block or partially block your vision on the green. Many options exist off the tee from a mid iron or hybrid to driver. + 3 Red.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%202013/photo_zps7bc75253.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/wellmond/media/Dismal%202013/photo_zps7bc75253.jpg.html)
15. Red seals the deal with another par 4 full of options .
4&3.
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Disappointment is an understatement regarding my feelings on this thread's hiatus. However, I am excited to see the live "fight" at the 5th Major.
What am I supposed to do with my free time at work now?
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As the inimitable John Malkovich famously said in Rounders..."I feel so unsatisfied"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvVoH-X-Kls
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Jud,
As Malkovich also said:
"In my club, I do whatever the f*ck I please"
;D