Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sven Nilsen on February 07, 2014, 04:45:36 PM
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In one of the threads that has gone by the wayside due to the recent unpleasantness, Tom Doak indicated he had some old slides of The Links Club that he would be willing to dig up from the archives.
Before moving on to the actual photos themselves, here's some background on the club. Please chime in with any additional information, or any recollections of what we were discussing in the original thread.
Built from 1917-19 by Charles B. MacDonald and Seth Raynor, the course was heralded as the "severest" test:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/LinksPic3_zps20fe3aca.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/LinksPic3_zps20fe3aca.jpg.html)
Here's an early list of shareholders:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/LinksMembers_zps03eae3be.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/LinksMembers_zps03eae3be.jpg.html)
A routing map:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Links3_zpse0d72f03.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Links3_zpse0d72f03.jpg.html)
A scorecard (note the hole names):
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/LinksScorecard_zps3f06d6df.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/LinksScorecard_zps3f06d6df.jpg.html)
A 1924 overhead shot:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/01-27-2008-15-43-56-706_edited-3_2_edited-2_zpseee9e4c6.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/01-27-2008-15-43-56-706_edited-3_2_edited-2_zpseee9e4c6.jpg.html)
An aerial view (and an overlay of the routing):
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Links1_zpsf07d0422.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Links1_zpsf07d0422.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Links2_zps77bf2c05.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Links2_zps77bf2c05.jpg.html)
Here's an article discussing the demise of the course:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/LinksPic6_zpsd6ab1b04.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/LinksPic6_zpsd6ab1b04.jpg.html)
Finally, an overhead shot of what the site looks like today:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/LinksPic4_zpse7ae3227.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/LinksPic4_zpse7ae3227.jpg.html)
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Quick side note before moving on.
The club bordered the Long Island Motor Parkway (a phenomenon worthy of its own study). The Parkway was a private roadway running along the breadth of Long Island. There are reports of a handful of secret entrances along the way, including one from the grounds of The Links Club (pictured below). Once you track the involvement of William K. Vanderbilt in both enterprises, it all makes sense.
It does beg the question if the proximity to the LIMP made the choice of the location for the club that much easier.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/LimpMod4_2_zps947079fe.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/LimpMod4_2_zps947079fe.jpg.html)
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One more quick note.
If you go back through the old maps on the Historic Aerials site, in the 1947 version the location of The Links Club is identified as "Guggenheim Golf Club." I am guessing that the map is wrong, and that they mistakenly labeled this spot with the name of the course located a little further north in Sands Point. This course, now known as the Village Club of Sands Point (reworked by Renaissance a little while back) was once the site of the Guggenheim estate before being purchased by IBM to be used for corporate retreats.
Sven
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Sven:
Thanks for putting this up, I hope the pictures translate well from slides to digital to DG.
Funny to see Charles Sabin (who owned the property that's now Sebonack) on the list of owners for the Corporation. I guess he was in on the ground floor of many of CBM's ventures. Amazing to see all those names again ... I guess I've been networking in the wrong way for my own business by spending time here.
Your illustration of the routing is mostly accurate, but the tee for #16 was over to the right (in the little nook of trees near 15 green) and the tee for #15 was back by #5 green (I don't remember exactly how it fit, but you'll see from the photo that the line of the hole was clearly from over there).
I'll try to get back to comment on the photos once they're up.
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This is awesome, Sven. I'm really looking forward to this thread. Thank you putting it together.
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Here's the first set of photos (note to Tom, if I have any of these reversed let me know and I can flip the image):
1st Hole Tee -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-1A-1stTee_zps8c213c0d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-1A-1stTee_zps8c213c0d.jpg.html)
1st Hole Mounds and Green -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-1B-1stHole_zps22b28f75.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-1B-1stHole_zps22b28f75.jpg.html)
2nd Tee and 8th Green -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-2B-2ndTeeand8thHole_zps72c98d9d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-2B-2ndTeeand8thHole_zps72c98d9d.jpg.html)
2nd Green from the Back -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-2A-2ndGreenBack_zpsd4fa7fb4.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-2A-2ndGreenBack_zpsd4fa7fb4.jpg.html)
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That 8th green looks fantastic!
MM
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Here is the 1954 aerial that I posted on the lost thread...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7336/12214843444_542dbb5b14_c.jpg)
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The backstory on the photos, which I've reported before, is that I only barely got permission to take them before the course was done in. When I'd visited the first time, the superintendent, Benny Zukowsky, took me around but only if I put my camera away. "Mr. Macdonald did not think pictures did justice to the course," he told me, so they never let anyone take pictures of it. He had been superintendent for 57 years at the time the course closed (I think that was 1929-1986 :o ), so he knew Mr. Macdonald fairly well.
Anyway, I was working on the restoration of Piping Rock for Mr. Dye when I heard the course was closing, from Jim Albus who was the club pro there at the time. When I told him I would like to take some pictures of it before it went under, he got permission from one of the living members, who was also a member of Piping Rock. My pics are actually from two separate visits, one of which was to play the course with P.B. Dye and his friend Steve Lucciola. I'm sure glad I got the pics before it was too late ... that Google Earth aerial posted by Sven is heartbreaking.
Re: the pictures: #1 was a Leven hole, with a fairway bunker on the left that you had to carry if you wanted to avoid coming in over the mounds at the right front of the green. The mound complex was more pronounced than on any Macdonald course I can think of. It was a good opener, not too tough but it made you do something right.
#2 was an Alps hole, I guess ... there was the deep trench of bunkers in front of the green as a cross hazard, and I'd forgotten about the first set of cross bunkers (see the aerial above, #2 is top middle, running from right to left) which were just before the fairway started down toward the green, so the hole was semi-blind or completely blind depending on the length of the drive.
In the last picture, just to the left of the hut is the tee for the third hole, the Biarritz, which played back in the opposite direction.
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Sven, thanks for taking the time to put the history & photo tour of this NLE course.
Tom, by your estimation, how much had the course changed at its closing from its original design/intent? Also, is Benny Zukowsky still alive because I would love to hear some stories from him.
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Someone once said that in a eulogy there's a tendency to dismiss the weaknesses of the departed and canonize him for the most basic of human qualities. I get that. And I know the 1st hole looks in some ways flat, save for mounds some if not most would call odd-looking and unnatural, and some perhaps even would call the hole flat or at least two dimensional (ex mounds) in appearance (shallow bunkers), but man: this view makes me want to play golf.
Makes me want to play golf.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-1A-1stTee_zps8c213c0d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-1A-1stTee_zps8c213c0d.jpg.html)
You will laugh at me, but personally I find wide-open 1st tee shots like this one maddeningly difficult. So hard to focus the mind on a specific target.
PS Sven, would you mind crediting (sourcing) the non-Doak images?
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Tom, by your estimation, how much had the course changed at its closing from its original design/intent? Also, is Benny Zukowsky still alive because I would love to hear some stories from him.
Rees:
I doubt that Benny Zukowsky is still alive. He was still very keen and very active when I met him, but that is 28 years ago now, and he was in his late 70's or early 80's then. The math isn't on his side. I think George Bahto spent some time with him, and maybe has some stories.
The course was fairly run down by the time I saw it, but it was not changed at all from its original design, as far as I could tell. That's what made it cool. Just like Mr. Macdonald didn't want them to let people take pictures of it, the management team [pro, superintendent and club manager] would not have made any deliberate changes to the design. As Tom Paul noted on past threads, the course was quite short [6300 yards from the back tees], and had the reputation of being fairly easy for a good golfer because of that, although there were a handful of holes like the Road and Redan that would get anyone's attention.
The sad thing is that it would have made a very fine public course in a very accessible Long Island location -- but at the time, there were no takers for that sort of thing, and the real estate value forced it toward its current "use".
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Tom,
I recall hearing that the club hadn't brought in any new members in years and there were only a few left by the late 1980s, which assisted with its demise. True?
And, thanks for sharing these photos, this is great; thanks to Sven, too, for putting this thread together.
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Jeff:
At the end there were 13 living members who sold the club.
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Next set.
The 8th Hole -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-8A-8thHole_zps3fe77a4e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-8A-8thHole_zps3fe77a4e.jpg.html)
The 9th Green -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-3A-3rdHoleIThink_zpsffb17cd2.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-3A-3rdHoleIThink_zpsffb17cd2.jpg.html)
The 10th Green from the Fairway (with the Clubhouse on the left) -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-10A-10thHoleandClubhouse_zps56447368.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-10A-10thHoleandClubhouse_zps56447368.jpg.html)
A closer shot of the 10th Green -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-10B-10thGreen_zpsb9d4f290.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-10B-10thGreen_zpsb9d4f290.jpg.html)
The 11th Hole from Behind the Green -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-11A-11thBack_zpsc4b9a4c2.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-11A-11thBack_zpsc4b9a4c2.jpg.html)
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Like Tom said, turning this into a public course would have been something special. Where was Trump when we needed him (kidding...sort of)? That being said, it is truly sad to see a course like this disappear.
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Sorry I didn't have any shots of the corner with holes 4-7. The only hole I remember well from that stretch was the Road green.
#8 is a standard-issue Short hole, completely surrounded by sand after a pitch over water. The green had contour but not wild contour.
#9 played over a pond off the tee (seen in the background in the photo of #8), then played to a green right in the corner of the property.
#10 played across one end of the property, past the clubhouse which was 100-150 yards short of the green on the left. (You walked across 10 fairway to get to the pro shop, 1st tee, and 18th green.) There seemed to be very little parking for the clubhouse proper; when you drove in you were likely to drive straight across the 10th fairway to the pro shop, unless you knew where you were going.
#11 was the longest hole, with a big, rectangular pond to be carried on the second shot; but if you couldn't make the carry and didn't want to lay up, there was a narrow fairway to the right that you could play to. It was an odd hole.
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You could put some intriguing foursomes together with that roster.
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The last batch of photos.
The Reverse Redan at the 13th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg.html)
A shot from the 15th Tee -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15A-15thTee_zpsaaf16491.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15A-15thTee_zpsaaf16491.jpg.html)
Further down the 15th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15B-15thFairway_zps5e5aee4d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15B-15thFairway_zps5e5aee4d.jpg.html)
The 16th Hole (with 17th Tee to the right and the 2nd and 3rd in the background) -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-16A-16thHole_zpsd88ca39e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-16A-16thHole_zpsd88ca39e.jpg.html)
The 18th Hole -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-18A-18thHole_zpse4da2220.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-18A-18thHole_zpse4da2220.jpg.html)
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The Reverse Redan at the 13th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg.html)
This was the hole I'll never forget playing. As I remember it was 220-something yards with the green several feet in the air falling away to all sides, and the angle was much more severe than the normal 45 degrees. You could either lay up toward the front left to play along the length of the green for your second shot, or go for it and deal with a very very difficult recovery if you were short or long.
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Awesome photos. Thanks for sharing guys. Tom, you need to recreate the golf course so we can experience it!! ;D
Mark
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From Tom Paul:
The Reverse Redan at Links Club was also one of the most unforgettable holes I have ever known. It isn't necessarily a hole that visually just jumps out and grabs you, but it was unforgettable to me because it may've been the hardest par 3 to hold the green I have ever known---and this is not to say that it did not provide some fascinating and varietal shot choices (strategies).
My father belonged to that club from maybe the late 50s or early 60s until around the time it closed. His usual group was some combination of James Knott, Bobby Grant and Tommy or Red Choate, all very good golfers in their time, and all members of Piping Rock and NGLA). I may've played that course a hundred or so times but when I played with those guys it was the singular hole that just drove them crazy because that green was so hard to hit and hold.
I think the problem was the approach has a rather quick steep upslope at the green's entrance (front left). Because of that any ball hit into the approach with any height would just die----(a little like the problems I first had trying to bounce a ball with any height off the approach to NGLA's #12 (same steep upslope in the approach next to the green front), before understanding how low I need to play that bounce on option), and mostly balls landing half way into the left green section would go right over the green on that line. So even if you played it to the front left of the green without unusual height the ball would generally run over the back. It was virtually impossible in those days to carry the ball over the bunker and hold the green on the right side. It may've been possible today with the height good players hit the ball but back then even the good players didn't put height on long shot the way they can today.
In many ways that green is designed in reverse at its front like Shinnecock's #7 but the difference is Link's #13 turned or hooked from the front left green section about 70-80 degrees to the right green section and that back right section was narrow (read---"shallow" to the line of flight from the tee). Shinnecock's #7 does not hook or turn at that angle---eg maybe more like 30-40 degrees. Also, that front/right bunker basically covers the right side of that left green section in-line to the tee for maybe 5-7 yards before turning perpendicular (to the tee) to cover the right side of the green.
The Club of choice to those guys was generally a 4 wood (Oh, do I missing seeing those beautiful little persimmon 4 woods), but the problem I saw with them is they didn't hit it low enough. My father generally tried to hit a low cut 4 wood which even for him was not an easy shot to pull off with regularity. But sometimes he would just hit something like an ultra low 3-4 iron well back into the approach and hope it had the proper "weight" to run and then climb the steep front and filter through the left side of the green and turn right and down. I would say from quite a lot of experience on that course that even a good player probably could not hit that green more than one in seven or eight tries. BUT, if one did hit the ideal shot it surely was a beautiful sight to see it turn right out of the left entrance and just filter down the almost perpendicular long right green section. The difference with that turn and filter shot at Link's compared to Piping's redan is at Links you could actually see the ball from the tee all the way on the green! It was the kind of hole that really demanded a whole lot but if and when you pulled it off it basically just made your day!
Like Tom Doak just posted, to me that hole was one of the most unforgettable I have ever known.
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Tom (and Tom):
Can you speak as to how this course compared to other McRaynor's?
Other than the Reverse Redan, were there other template holes (of the 9 holes that appear to be adaptations) that stood out as different from what they had done in other locations?
For the holes unique to the property, which ones stood out as particularly interesting?
How did the Biarritz play?
From the sounds of it, the course was truly a museum piece, even having resisted the addition of length that has changed the dynamics of many of their other courses. Looking at that scorecard (which I am guessing is from some time after WWII), it seems that the course stuck to the approximately 6,300 yards of total length.
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Tom (and Tom):
Can you speak as to how this course compared to other McRaynor's?
Other than the Reverse Redan, were there other template holes (of the 9 holes that appear to be adaptations) that stood out as different from what they had done in other locations?
For the holes unique to the property, which ones stood out as particularly interesting?
How did the Biarritz play?
From the sounds of it, the course was truly a museum piece, even having resisted the addition of length that has changed the dynamics of many of their other courses. Looking at that scorecard (which I am guessing is from some time after WWII), it seems that the course stuck to the approximately 6,300 yards of total length.
Somewhere I still have my scorecard of the course, I will look tomorrow. I'm betting it was exactly the same as in the 1950's and probably 1930 for that matter. That's the sort of club it was. There were no "flat bellies" to add tees for.
I think the pictures I took are pretty indicative of the standout holes for me. The mounds on #1, the cross bunkering on #2 [which you can only get in one view if it's an aerial], #11, #13 and #15 were the holes that went beyond the normal templates. Oh, also that serpentine fairway bunker on #5, I'd forgotten all about that until I looked back at the aerial. [The 4th looks good in the aerial, too, but I do not remember it.]
The 14th [which I didn't send you a picture of] was quite odd, a long uphill dogleg par-5 with a single unimportant bunker, and trees defending the dogleg short of the green. The finish of 17 & 18 was pretty weak, really. I don't think I gave it a rating in The Confidential Guide since it was gone, but it would have been a 5 or 6 on the Doak scale.
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First, thanks for the pictures.
I would love to have seen a picture of the 3rd as I am a fan of the Biarritz hole.
Quite sad that this course is gone.
Chris
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Man, I hate to hear that the original thread is gone. It was perhaps my one and only decent discussion topic I started on the board in 13 years! :)
Oh well, it was all due to reading about it in George's book on C.B. and it fascinated me how the club could exist on so little members (in such a great location too). How nice to be able to imagine a place like that existed at one time (Lido!) and at least Tom got to get over there and take a few pictures before the bulldozers came around.
I wish it were still around today, but I guess the membership was too small to make it viable. Thanks, Sven and Tom for pictures as well as Tom and George Bahto for writing their books.
-- Rob
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The original thread is not gone. Just the posts from the last two weeks of January.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1518.msg29739.html#msg29739
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Sven, Tom,
Thank you for taking the time to post on the club. I bet #15 green had more slope than what appears?
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I found this article about the links club clubhouse.
http://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-neo-georgian-links-club-no-36-38-e.html
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Fascinating! Thanks for this thread!!
What were the underlying causes of its demise? All economic? I saw they were down to a handful of members. Why?
Can you imagine the attractiveness of that course if it were restored and around today?
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Fascinating! Thanks for this thread!!
What were the underlying causes of its demise? All economic? I saw they were down to a handful of members. Why?
Can you imagine the attractiveness of that course if it were restored and around today?
Jim:
As we talked about on the other thread, The Links eventually failed because it was such an insular club that they never let any new blood join ... the membership started dying off and they didn't replace them.
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The road (6) and short (8) look to have mesmerizing greens.
What a testament to two men who seemingly built the same holes over and over again, yet we still marvel at each one.
The course was dubbed as one of the toughest tests...but really, were any MacDonald/Raynor's 'easy'?
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The course was dubbed as one of the toughest tests...but really, were any MacDonald/Raynor's 'easy'?
It may have been marketed as such to people who never saw it, but my late friend Woody Millen said that back in his day [1940's and 50's], it was considered one of the better places to go on Long Island to try to shoot a low score.
Like all Raynor courses it was only around 6300 yards to start with, and they never built any additional tees. There were a couple of "wow" holes ... the Redan was the most severe version I've seen ... but overall it was no backbreaker.
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What a great thread and thanks to the both of you for posting it! This thread echoes the great days of this site and, of course, having Tom's images; Tom Paul's dialog on playing the course, which I've been gifted many times in many a phone conversation on just not how the course played, but the cast of characters who were members. Very affluent characters!
Mark McKeever is right! Rebuild it and they will come! How cool would this place be as a private club, albeit a long wait on the tee as people played that Redan! Its a wait I would have no problem with!
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The Reverse Redan at the 13th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg.html)
Many thanks for bouncing this thread.
What a fabulous looking hole - folks sometimes use the expression a par-three-and-a-half hole. This one looks more like a 3.999999 to me!
Now the Redan at NBGC bends right-to-left as seemingly do most copies. This hole though bends the other way so as most golfers are right-handers this hole would presumably play as a fade-preferred hole.
Question - How does this effect the holes playability as long-shot hooks and draws tend to run out whereas slices and fades tend to sit down and stop quicker?
Atb
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Tom, there is just something about those slides that really captures a mood...cold, dreary, ominous. The photos are wonderful. You can almost hear the half-frozen grass crunching under the feet of a few old souls still playing the course before it closed.
Also, I'm glad this thread got bumped back up, I've been going back and reading all the other threads about The Links Club with stories from Tom Paul about the great old clubs and characters. I could read them for hours.
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Bounce.
Thanks to Tyler Kearns for showing me this thread.
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Bumping threads like this has such virtue. Much like the insular club that The Links Club was, we have our own insulation. Seeing GCA names from another GCA decade, reading the enthusiasm with which they commented, is a secondary history lesson of its own.
To have an initial thread (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1518.msg29739.html#msg29739 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1518.msg29739.html#msg29739)) from 2003, followed by another a decade later, is golden.
It's fairly easy to understand why The Links Club would have gone under, regardless of membership. Have a look at the clubs to its north north/west, and there is plenty of pasture for those who need golf.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Links+At+North+Hills/@40.7682937,-73.6893253,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x92b2c86b45cf90c1!8m2!3d40.7641983!4d-73.6744766 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Links+At+North+Hills/@40.7682937,-73.6893253,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x92b2c86b45cf90c1!8m2!3d40.7641983!4d-73.6744766)
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I am reading theses threads and posts for the first time this morning...interestingly after re-reading Bahto's fabulous "Evangelist" book last week! What fascinates me is the differences in some fairly specific thoughts and numbers between posts (and even within posts). For example, in the newspaper article posted by Swen 2/7/14 (first post in this current thread), the article says IN THE SAME ARTICLE that the original subscription fee was $1,000, $2,500, and $5,000!!). More importantly, is the sense that this was a brutally tough course. In "Evangelist", Bahto says that while CBM tried to keep it playing as difficult as possible (no rakes in bunkers, etc) "...the Links Club course was a moderated version the National Golf Links. That was because the original membership needed a more comfortable and less strenuous version to play over."
So question for Tom (Doak)...which description seems more accurate to you...tough or almost like Burning Tree (MD)?
The most fascinating aspect of this club to me has always been the secrecy. I grew up in Queens and stared playing this silly game when I was 10...and playing a fair number of courses about 10 years later. But literally I had never HEARD of it until residing Evangelist for the first time some 10 years ago.
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So question for Tom (Doak)...which description seems more accurate to you...tough or almost like Burning Tree (MD)?
The most fascinating aspect of this club to me has always been the secrecy. I grew up in Queens and stared playing this silly game when I was 10...and playing a fair number of courses about 10 years later. But literally I had never HEARD of it until residing Evangelist for the first time some 10 years ago.
The course was barely 6300 yards, but there were a handful of really difficult holes -- the Redan, at 220 yards with a high green like CC of Charleston, was the toughest I have ever seen. And the rough and ready conditions presented their own challenges.
However, my late friend Woody Millen, who was club champ at Piping Rock in his youth, told me The Links was considered an easy place to post a good medal score, in his circle of friends.
I had never heard of the course until it showed up in the Cornish & Whitten book in the list of Macdonald's work. And then Ben Crenshaw asked me if I'd ever seen it - he hadn't either - so I went to check it out. That was my first attempt, when the old professionals told me to leave. I got lucky the second try, and the greenkeeper showed me around.
I will never forget him telling me to put my camera away, and when I asked why, he said because Mr Macdonald did not think pictures did justice to the course!
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Gentlemen,
It has obviously been quite some time, but my recollection is Uncle George and I both suspected The Links Club in Manhattan (I think it is on 62nd or 63rd) had all sorts of memorabilia - even C.B.'s original routings - stored in their archives. George had lunch there and took a picture of C.B.'s portrait, hanging on the wall.
Apparently, many of the members had no idea who their founder was - or only had a vague memory of some golf course affiliated with their "Gentleman's Club."
Some years later, I tried to arrange a visit in advance, but ran into a brick wall. Even having a large number of well-connected friends all over the MET Area got me nowhere . One early evening, Redhead and I were wandering around after dinner - where we ate with Daniel Boulud oddly enough - and being a brazen fuck from California, I just decided to ring the bell, under the pretense of inquiring whether The Links Club had the same reciprocal agreement with Olympic as the NYAC.
Since we were both dressed in our Sunday best (for you Brits, that means a suit, tie and fancy-ass designer dress), the door was actually opened - by Alfred Pennyworth's doppelganger, with a mix of icy politeness, but also a hint of amusement. Her Redness was resplendent, but I'm afraid my scuffy saddle shoes and crooked 1/4 Windsor tie job (known as a "half ass") shrieked hick from the planet hippy.
When I asked if there was any sort of reciprocal agreements with other clubs, the look on his face said I may as well have come from the Ravenite with John Gotti's crew. The answer was "The Links Club is strictly private, with no agreements with anybody."
One last shot: "Did he happen to know how one might reach the club historian?" No dice . . . . "Our memberships roles are strictly confidential, I hope that answers your question . . . good night."
Click.
Deadbolt click.
Anybody in the Treehouse have a relationship with one of the members? Even years after finishing the book, I'd still be fascinated to comb through their archives. Arranging lunch would seem doable, but letting some obscure former golf scribe rummage through their attic would probably be a tough sell . . . .
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So question for Tom (Doak)...which description seems more accurate to you...tough or almost like Burning Tree (MD)?
The most fascinating aspect of this club to me has always been the secrecy. I grew up in Queens and stared playing this silly game when I was 10...and playing a fair number of courses about 10 years later. But literally I had never HEARD of it until residing Evangelist for the first time some 10 years ago.
However, my late friend Woody Millen, who was club champ at Piping Rock in his youth, told me The Links was considered an easy place to post a good medal score, in his circle of friends.
Tom-I was lucky enough to play with Woody Millen in March of 2015 at Palmetto. Absolutely one of the most fun rounds ever as once he knew I had an interest in the courses on Long Island I just played and listened. He had an old bucket hat on and still played pretty well in his mid seventies. I sat outside with him after the round and just continued to listen over a drink. A lifetime highlight as far as getting paired up.
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That first hole is some serious sod farm architecture.
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Greetings All,
Recently I discovered this informative site and in particular this thread. This is a trip down memory lane as I caddied at this course from 1966-1982 (minus two interrupted periods 1970-1974 and 1977-1979). I was fortunate to reach the number one caddie position in the fall of 1975 and maintained that position until the spring of 1977. At that time, a career change had me move to the west coast for a two year period.
This thread certainly brings back many happy memories. I enjoyed my time there as a caddie for the rich and famous, earning spending money, and perhaps the best part playing countless rounds of golf. That was once members were off the course for the day! I will be happy to discuss any simple questions concerning the architectural design of the course. There were some minor changes to the course that have not been mentioned in the previous threads.
Fortunately, not knowing the forbidden rule of taking photos of the course, I have a small collection of pictures for some of the golf holes. Additionally, I have a few newspaper clippings discussing the eventual death of this one of a kind establishment. At the moment I am having issues posting images to the thread but hopefully this will get resolved. Stay tuned.....
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To start the ball rolling again on this thread (it seems to have a life of its own) attached is a picture of the front entrance of the clubhouse. Previous pictures on this thread show the side view of the clubhouse. This was the entrance into the kitchen area. Members there would stop in, before or after finishing the 10th, for a beverage and occasionally a quickly made sandwich. Caddies were sometimes fortunate in having a member give them a bottle of coke. Never a Pepsi! Robert Woodruff, former president of the Coca-Cola Company, was a member of the Links Club. We caddies would call him Mr. Coca Cola.
Pictures of the course later......
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUx_ZB7QIUiX4iQozAiC1kJzeySWuii9PKtbBlfxzc35TibdqEE9D9w5oTbqQWi97eRdVr80m3vbrryPQlMhv5wDs59AEtvW2_5mq78aainmPTNNfuqsjQh8MaBc32tw-Up4w_9nuFqEqLQb2ZWfUM=w404-h277-no?authuser=0)
Interesting note on the clubhouse, this picture has a candid resemblance to the Inn shown at the beginning of the Newhart TV show. I always thought it was, since William Paley Chairman of the Board at CBS, was a leading member of this club; it was not.
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Sorry, pics are not posting correctly. I sent a message to moderator. Please stand by!
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Richard,
First off, welcome. I hope you enjoy reading and interacting here as much as I do.
Second, while it’s quiet at the moment, I’m sure you’ll find many people (myself included) eager to hear everything you can share about the club.
Additionally, posting pics is an ongoing challenge for many here. Luckily, there are several people who know how to do it and will help you soon enough.
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So why the demise of the course?
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Sorry, pics are not posting correctly. I sent a message to moderator. Please stand by!
The moderator may or may not answer.
Here is a thread on posting pictures.
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68966.msg1654666.html#msg1654666
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Richard,
First off, welcome. I hope you enjoy reading and interacting here as much as I do.
Second, while it’s quiet at the moment, I’m sure you’ll find many people (myself included) eager to hear everything you can share about the club.
Additionally, posting pics is an ongoing challenge for many here. Luckily, there are several people who know how to do it and will help you soon enough.
Thank you for the friendly welcome. I am happy to learn that posting pics here is not for the faint of heart. Hopefully the pics I have will find a home here. If not by me then perhaps a surrogate?
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Welcome to the board. I am definitely looking forward to the pictures. I would offer to post them for you but I am also technologically challenged.
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/YNJYrvop8j9ukz228 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/YNJYrvop8j9ukz228)
Hole 1 Leven - Shown from the teebox. The trap extending from the left rough to about the center of the fairway was about a 180 yard carry off the tee. The right trap further down the hole was about 220 yards from the tee. Three guarded traps surrounded the green. The center and right trap were deep while the left trap was about level to the green. The mounds before the green gave the hole character. During tournament play the flagstick was often placed behind them thus making this 300 yard hole more difficult than it looked.
On a side note, to the right of teebox was the practice range and to the right of that was the 10th fairway. It was a caddie's nightmare when the range was full of practice balls and an errant tee shot from either the 1st and 10th hole found a home there! There were no yardage markers on the course and as mentioned in a previous posting never a rake could be found.
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7)
Hole 3 Biarritz - Shown from the teebox. This was a picturesque hole for sure. The horseshoe trap was one of the deepest on the course. Perhaps the most outstanding feature of this hole was the green. Swales were prevalent throughout the green. The fairway gully before the green was not deep and would not affect a short shot from rolling on to the green. The trap did have a grass break in the gully to allow foot traffic to the 4th tee. Also, behind the right corner of the green is a distant layout of the 18th hole including the traps adjacent to the green.
Caddies were always pleased to have their players land on the green. This allowed us to leave the player's bag at the base of the tee box by the 4th hole fairway and hand carry the putter for Hole 3 and the driver for Hole 4. The 4th tee is evident with close examination. This fairway heads back in the direction of the 3rd tee box. To the left of 4th fairway (not shown) was the 17th fairway.
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/sr5zCe8Ag5ynaD1C9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/sr5zCe8Ag5ynaD1C9)
Hole 7 Mounds - Shown halfway between tee and green. To the right of the green the tee box for the 8th hole is evident. The 7th had the smallest green on the course. The second shot, if landed on the green, did however hold well. For what its worth, the sand traps on this hole always seemed far less coarser than all of the other traps. The distant fairway trap before the green traps was reachable with an all out drive. I also remember a few long time members telling of a fairway trap, more reachable on a drive, removed well before my tenure.
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/3gAZYNfFvc4VxLq8A (https://photos.app.goo.gl/3gAZYNfFvc4VxLq8A)
Hole 10 Club - Shown about 150-160 yards to the green with side entrance to the clubhouse. Directly across the clubhouse was the club pro shop. The asphalt drive before the green brought you to the parking lot. The 10th was the number 1 stroke hole. There were traps on both sides of the green. The right trap was one of the deepest traps on the course. It was difficult for the ball to hold on the green. The slope from the front to back was always mentioned to the golfers I caddied for before their shot to the green.I am modifying this post today (2/18/22) in order to include an aerial view of the hole which was not available when this post was first created.
The layout of the hole can be viewed in the upper portion of the picture going from left to right. Hole 1 and 9 are fully shown as well. The majority of Hole 11 and 18 can also be viewed. Other highlights are Hole 8 green, Hole 2 tee boxes, the driving range (between Hole 1 and 10 fairway), and the small member parking lot. One interesting tidbit I failed to mention on this hole was that caddies were required to walk ahead on the course prior to the players second shot. There was a nice graphically designed sign (perhaps the original) staked near the second right fairway trap to remind players of this requirement. This was necessary for the safety of persons crossing the fairway to the clubhouse. At that vantage point there was a dip in the fairway and foot traffic could not be seen. Caddies would wave the players on when the coast was clear.
(https://i.ibb.co/HtG9wfx/Hole-Ten-1984-Aerial.jpg)
Here is edited picture courtesy of Tom Doak showing Hole 10 Championship tee box. It was squeezed in behind Hole 9 right rear trap.
(https://i.ibb.co/1J6T2Vf/Hole-10-Red-Tees.jpg)
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/5sVzorHgD4heNgVb8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/5sVzorHgD4heNgVb8)
Hole 11 Pond - Shown after a successful drive although long hitters could reach the pond. Most of the time the tee was placed at regular course 420 yards requiring a layup for most of the long hitters. This made it a tougher par five than on paper. The base of the pond to the green was about a 180 yard carry.
The tall tree to the right was in close proximity of the 12th tee box. That tee box was originally located on the other side of the tree. It was relocated (well before my tenure)after too many sprayed tee shots from the 18th hole. Far in the distance, in front of a cluster of trees, was the 12th green. That green was two level.
Here is a picture of the aerial view of the hole (added 2/18/2022). This also shows the majority of Hole 18.(https://i.ibb.co/VMz7DhY/Hole-11-1984-Aerial.jpg)
Unfortunately this is the last of my Links photos. I wish there were more to share including the 13th Redan Hole. Had I known the history of this design a picture would surely be in my album. It was a hole caddies never had much to say good things about. It should be noted that the tee box had four levels to it. One final note about the 13th. One of my most memorable shots on the Links was on this hole when I had a two inch tap in birdie.
Tomorrow I hope to post a few newspaper clippings outlining the closure of the closure.
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Greetings All,
Recently I discovered this informative site and in particular this thread. This is a trip down memory lane as I caddied at this course from 1966-1982 (minus two interrupted periods 1970-1974 and 1977-1979). I was fortunate to reach the number one caddie position in the fall of 1975 and maintained that position until the spring of 1977. At that time, a career change had me move to the west coast for a two year period.
This thread certainly brings back many happy memories. I enjoyed my time there as a caddie for the rich and famous, earning spending money, and perhaps the best part playing countless rounds of golf. That was once members were off the course for the day! I will be happy to discuss any simple questions concerning the architectural design of the course. There were some minor changes to the course that have not been mentioned in the previous threads.
Fortunately, not knowing the forbidden rule of taking photos of the course, I have a small collection of pictures for some of the golf holes. Additionally, I have a few newspaper clippings discussing the eventual death of this one of a kind establishment. At the moment I am having issues posting images to the thread but hopefully this will get resolved. Stay tuned.....
Richard,
Thanks very much for bringing this thread forward. I don’t recall seeing it when it was created.
Reading Tom Paul’s description of the reverse Redan was a treat. It was truly GolfClubAtlas at its very best.
Tom Doak’s participation in the thread also stands out for me as his true love and appreciation for golf course architecture comes across beautifully even with the sense of loss and sadness he conveys.
It is only fitting the Tommy Naccarato chimed in as well and his mention of telephone conversations with Tom Paul brings back my own memories. As with Tom Doak, the true love comes out.
Thanks again. Very nice of you.
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Wow....Never saw this thread before.
I somehow now miss this course without having ever seen it, much less played there.
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The Biarritz photo is wonderful. What a visual to step up to and then have to pull the trigger.
Richard - Thanks for bringing these photos and memories to our attention. Was the front part of the Biarritz maintained as green or fairway? The back section appears brighter in the photo making me think only that was green, but it could be a trick of the light.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7)
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The Biarritz photo is wonderful. What a visual to step up to and then have to pull the trigger.
Richard - Thanks for bringing these photos and memories to our attention. Was the front part of the Biarritz maintained as green or fairway? The back section appears brighter in the photo making me think only that was green, but it could be a trick of the light.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7)
Jim:
The aerials from earlier in thread suggest that the swale and everything in front of it were not maintained as green.
Be interested to hear from Richard if that was the case when he was there.
Sven
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Wonderful.
(edit to remove redundant question)
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Richard, great pictures.
Was there any elevation difference from the 3rd tee to the the 3rd green? It appears slightly uphill (to me) in that photo. Did members struggle with it or embrace it?
Thanks.
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Richard-Welcome to the site and thank you for the terrific photos and descriptions. The only evidence of a building so far in any of the pictures is the clubhouse and I didn’t know what other outbuildings might have been on the property aside from a maintenance area which has yet to be revealed. Even with Lido, the original Deepdale and The Links Club gone the Macdonald/Raynor footprint is still incredibly strong in Nassau County. Finally any other photos and or commentary would be greatly appreciated.
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I'm so happy to see this topic still active on the site. I pulled down my Bahto book last night and re-read his chapter on the Links.
What a fascinating golf course, and membership, that must have been!
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I'm so happy to see this topic still active on the site. I pulled down my Bahto book last night and re-read his chapter on the Links.
What a fascinating golf course, and membership, that must have been!
Robert-I wonder what kind of membership overlap there was with the Blind Brook Club?
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Thank you all for the warm welcome on this site. Sharing a piece of Americana from a bygone era never gets old! I will certainly answer all of questions directed to me when I am finished posting additional material. Again thanks for all of the compliments and the warm reception.
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I have been in communication with Richard. He remains unable to post photos. With his approval, I am re-posting his posts with his photos included
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51829788832_ddfb0feae5_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mY2duQ)
Hole 1 Leven by Richard DeMenna
Hole 1 Leven - Shown from the teebox. The trap extending from the left rough to about the center of the fairway was about a 180 yard carry off the tee. The right trap further down the hole was about 220 yards from the tee. Three guarded traps surrounded the green. The center and right trap were deep while the left trap was about level to the green. The mounds before the green gave the hole character. During tournament play the flagstick was often placed behind them thus making this 300 yard hole more difficult than it looked.
On a side note, to the right of teebox was the practice range and to the right of that was the 10th fairway. It was a caddie's nightmare when the range was full of practice balls and an errant tee shot from either the 1st and 10th hole found a home there! There were no yardage markers on the course and as mentioned in a previous posting never a rake could be found.
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Richard:
Thanks for your addition to the discussion of a much talked about but seldom seen club.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51829788922_abd4c92944_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mY2dwo)
Hole 3 Biarritz by Richard DeMenna
Hole 3 Biarritz - Shown from the teebox. This was a picturesque hole for sure. The horseshoe trap was one of the deepest on the course. Perhaps the most outstanding feature of this hole was the green. Swales were prevalent throughout the green. The fairway gully before the green was not deep and would not affect a short shot from rolling on to the green. The trap did have a grass break in the gully to allow foot traffic to the 4th tee. Also, behind the right corner of the green is a distant layout of the 18th hole including the traps adjacent to the green.
Caddies were always pleased to have their players land on the green. This allowed us to leave the player's bag at the base of the tee box by the 4th hole fairway and hand carry the putter for Hole 3 and the driver for Hole 4. The 4th tee is evident with close examination. This fairway heads back in the direction of the 3rd tee box. To the left of 4th fairway (not shown) was the 17th fairway.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51829789017_72fae983a5_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mY2dy2)
Hole 7 Mounds by Richard DeMenna
Hole 7 Mounds - Shown halfway between tee and green. To the right of the green the tee box for the 8th hole is evident. The 7th had the smallest green on the course. The second shot, if landed on the green, did however hold well. For what its worth, the sand traps on this hole always seemed far less coarser than all of the other traps. The distant fairway trap before the green traps was reachable with an all out drive. I also remember a few long time members telling of a fairway trap, more reachable on a drive, removed well before my tenure.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51830856158_2ecbcd8c5d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mY7FM1)
Hole 10 Club by Richard DeMenna
Hole 10 Club - Shown about 150-160 yards to the green with side entrance to the clubhouse. Directly across the clubhouse was the club pro shop. The asphalt drive before the green brought you to the parking lot. The 10th was the number 1 stroke hole. There were traps on both sides of the green. The right trap was one of the deepest traps on the course. It was difficult for the ball to hold on the green. The slope from the front to back was always mentioned to the golfers I caddied for before their shot to the green.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51831466755_8e4c787af7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mYaPhx)
Hole 11 Pond by Richard DeMenna
Hole 11 Pond - Shown after a successful drive although long hitters could reach the pond. Most of the time the tee was placed at regular course 420 yards requiring a layup for most of the long hitters. This made it a tougher par five than on paper. The base of the pond to the green was about a 180 yard carry.
The tall tree to the right was in close proximity of the 12th tee box. That tee box was orginally located on the other side of the tree. It was relocated (well before my tenure)after too many sprayed tee shots from the 18th hole. Far in the distance, in front of a cluster of trees, was the 12th green. That green was two level.
Unfortunately this is the last of my Links photos. I wish there were more to share including the 13th Redan Hole. Had I known the history of this design a picture would surely be in my album. It was a hole caddies never had much to say good things about. It should be noted that the tee box had four levels to it. One final note about the 13th. One of my most memorable shots on the Links was on this hole when I had a two inch tap in birdie.
Tomorrow I hope to post a few newspaper clippings outlining the closure of the closure.
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My next set of postings consist of newspaper clippings from Long Island base Newsday. I am sort of stepping out of my comfort zone here, as at the time of these clippings (1983 and 1984), I was no longer living in the area. My tenure as a caddie at the Links ended after the 1982 fall golfing season. Hopefully my recollection of the demise of the Club will not contradict other previous posters and in particular the writings of George Bahto. It is certainly not my intention.
In early 1983, I moved to Thomasville, Georgia. This town is home to Glen Arven Country Club. The golf course is one of the oldest in the country with an establishment date of 1892. Ironically, influential Links member Jock Whitney (mentioned in previous posts) was a member of Glen Arven as well. History buffs will remember he was in the foursome at Glen Arven with President Eisenhower, when after finishing the steep 18th hole par 5, announced his intentions of securing a second term in office.
It was highly rumored at the start of 1982 that the Links Golf Club would see its final year. Actually, the longevity of the Club always seemed in doubt since 1979 when it went under contract with real estate developers. However I vividly remember being told at the time by the golf pro, Joe Phillips and his wife Julie, that the Club will always remain in operation while Jock Whitney is alive (he died in February 1982).
The scuttlebutt on the sale of the Club in 1979 was purely financial. The membership at the time, in my opinion, was sound and it remained that way until my tenure at the Club ended. I still remember some of the golfers in my 1982 loops buzzing about the Tom Watson U.S. Open birdie chip out of the rough on the 17th hole.
Whether the Club was in operation in 1983 I cannot say for sure. The first news clipping sent by my family on the operating status of the Club appeared May 4, 1983. The article somewhat suggests the inactivity of the Club. Also, I remember my Christmas card to the Phillips' at the end of the year was returned to sender. Perhaps someone in the possession of the Bahto book can provide some insight to the actual year of closure.
The May 3, 1983 clipping follows.
(https://i.ibb.co/tZpynJ3/May-4-1983.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yhFLKQV)
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September 19, 1984
(https://i.ibb.co/9qHZRYs/September-19-1984.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kh2mYcQ)
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Fall 1984 Article (Obviously this law had no bearing on the outcome of the situation)
(https://i.ibb.co/5npw3Qp/Fall-1984.jpg) (https://ibb.co/619LSK9)
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Here is a prized possession of mine.
(https://i.ibb.co/6R3cY64/Score-Card-Front.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GvKf7gV)
(https://i.ibb.co/m40T4Gc/Back-of-Score-Card.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FzX3zKD)
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It's not really clear from Bahto's book or from the articles I have in my files when play actually ceased on the course. It is clear there were pretty strong efforts by both the village and the town of North Hempstead to purchase the land and prevent the development, but neither could come up with the cash. Construction of the new housing didn't begin until 1988-89.
One thing I found that was interesting was that in the early 1960s when Nassau County was stockpiling open space to convert to county parks, one of the sites they wanted was the Links Club. Evidently the village and the club members told the county to go to hell, which led Nassau to instead purchase a nearby estate that they would convert to Christopher Morley Park (today home to one of the County's four nine-hole munis).
Of course, in its boundless wisdom, Nassau, on its county parks web page, describes Morley Park as the site of a former estate that "included the Links Golf Club."
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The last batch of photos.
The Reverse Redan at the 13th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg.html)
A shot from the 15th Tee -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15A-15thTee_zpsaaf16491.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15A-15thTee_zpsaaf16491.jpg.html)
Further down the 15th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15B-15thFairway_zps5e5aee4d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15B-15thFairway_zps5e5aee4d.jpg.html)
The 16th Hole (with 17th Tee to the right and the 2nd and 3rd in the background) -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-16A-16thHole_zpsd88ca39e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-16A-16thHole_zpsd88ca39e.jpg.html)
The 18th Hole -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-18A-18thHole_zpse4da2220.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-18A-18thHole_zpse4da2220.jpg.html)
Richard,
Thank you for sharing your pictures and information on the Links Club. This is very interesting to me.
Did you say someone came in to make changes to the course? The pictures posted earlier in the thread show two styles of bunkering. It seems like many of the Par 3’s have their original bunkers but the fairway bunkers on the first and all of the bunkers on the 18th almost have a saucer-type of look to them that don’t seem to match up with the earlier aerials. I included some of the pics posted earlier in the thread to show the difference between some of the bunkers. The 18th hole used to be a Road Hole style green in the earliest layouts and aerials. As you can see in the last picture above, the bunkers do not look like Raynor or Macdonald’s original road style bunkering. I am just curious who made the changes to the golf course?
Thanks again for sharing your information.
Bret
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The Biarritz photo is wonderful. What a visual to step up to and then have to pull the trigger.
Richard - Thanks for bringing these photos and memories to our attention. Was the front part of the Biarritz maintained as green or fairway? The back section appears brighter in the photo making me think only that was green, but it could be a trick of the light.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/sdEwuNSKyFfiGTmF7)
Jim and Sven - Yes the front part was maintained as a fairway. Depending on the trajectory of a short tee shot the ball could easily roll on to the green. Another interesting note on the bunker, as I mentioned previously, most of sand on the course was coarse in consistency. Nothing like the fine texture I have seen in South Georgia and Florida. On this hole in particular, the pro would most often use his putter out of this deep trap. Joe had a knack of getting the ball out that way. I am really happy in deciding to take a picture of this hole. First time players of this hole were often mesmerized when they first viewed it.
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Richard, great pictures.
Was there any elevation difference from the 3rd tee to the the 3rd green? It appears slightly uphill (to me) in that photo. Did members struggle with it or embrace it?
Thanks.
Peter,
There really was not much of a elevation difference. If any, the 3rd tee was of higher elevation. Once leaving the tee there was a steep decent down and then a gradual incline back to the green. This hole was always well received by players when reaching the tee box. The green was in close proximity of the 17th green. Those two greens were basically separated by the 4th tee. Being in close proximity of the 17th green, the highest point on the course, panoramic views on the 3rd green (and the tee box for that matter) were one for the books.
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Phil:
The last few years, Bob Ranum from GCGC had helped them maintain the course, and most of the play was from retired firefighters and police. The members were rarely around. I am pretty sure I played it in 1985 and it didn’t last much longer.
Bret: I don’t think anyone made changes to the course; the bunkers just evolved to the look shown over decades of very little attention. Ben Zukowsky the superintendent was afraid to do anything that Mr Macdonald wouldn’t have approved.
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Tom:
I am guessing the work on the 18th hole was done between 1926 and 1940.
Here is a layout showing the plan for the 18th hole:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/IMG_2492.PNG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/900f22ee-d167-4987-8b37-bc54a0849435)
1926 Aerial, showing 18th hole as built (18th hole on the bottom of the frame)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(8).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/f7cb5220-3064-4396-84ae-085980c48b59)
1940 Aerial showing new fairway bunkers and different green side bunkers:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(9).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/dff9e3c4-38a0-4ae9-afed-3f4d44db9126)
Bret
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Quick side note before moving on.
The club bordered the Long Island Motor Parkway (a phenomenon worthy of its own study). The Parkway was a private roadway running along the breadth of Long Island. There are reports of a handful of secret entrances along the way, including one from the grounds of The Links Club (pictured below). Once you track the involvement of William K. Vanderbilt in both enterprises, it all makes sense.
It does beg the question if the proximity to the LIMP made the choice of the location for the club that much easier.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/LimpMod4_2_zps947079fe.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/LimpMod4_2_zps947079fe.jpg.html)
Tim Martin,
I am going to answer you Post 62 question by using this post by Sven. If you look to the building on the right that is the Clubhouse a converted farm house. The building on the left, separated by the 10th fairway, is large farm barn. This barn had a top level that housed the pro shop. The pro and his wife, Joe and Julie Phillips, resided on that top level as well with modest accommodations. This level also had a workshop for the pro and housed members golf bags. The groundskeeper, Ben Zukosky, also stored his clubs there. He and the Phillips dog, Laddie, would often have a turf war back there!
The bottom level of the barn was the groundskeepers domain. The of majority of the mechanical equipment was kept there. During the winter months Ben's skeleton crew were busy servicing equipment. Julie Phillips would tell me stories of how offensive the gasoline odor would permeate into there living quarters.
Detached from the barn was a deep large garage that housed a handful of golf carts. They were discouraged at this Club. Jock Whitney and William Paley were two of the most notable exceptions that had carts there. The Phillips parked their cars there which included a first generation Ford Thunderbird. There was also a very old inoperable Model T that was stored there. Also attached to the garage was the caddie house. It had seen its better days when I first arrived on the scene and was hardly occupied.
Behind the garage was a smaller barn but still large that housed fertilizer, chemical supplies, etc. and perhaps some additional machinery. This barn was adjacent to the 11th fairway. Sometimes balls from errant drives would find there way there. Back on the course, there was somewhat of a maintenance area off to the left of the 2nd hole foot bridge. It did not contain a building structure however. Actually it was more of a dumpsite and to be frank an eyesore.
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The last batch of photos.
The Reverse Redan at the 13th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-13A-13thHole_zps187804de.jpg.html)
A shot from the 15th Tee -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15A-15thTee_zpsaaf16491.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15A-15thTee_zpsaaf16491.jpg.html)
Further down the 15th -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15B-15thFairway_zps5e5aee4d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-15B-15thFairway_zps5e5aee4d.jpg.html)
The 16th Hole (with 17th Tee to the right and the 2nd and 3rd in the background) -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-16A-16thHole_zpsd88ca39e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-16A-16thHole_zpsd88ca39e.jpg.html)
The 18th Hole -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-18A-18thHole_zpse4da2220.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/The%20Links%20Club/TheLinksClub-18A-18thHole_zpse4da2220.jpg.html)
Richard,
Thank you for sharing your pictures and information on the Links Club. This is very interesting to me.
Did you say someone came in to make changes to the course? The pictures posted earlier in the thread show two styles of bunkering. It seems like many of the Par 3’s have their original bunkers but the fairway bunkers on the first and all of the bunkers on the 18th almost have a saucer-type of look to them that don’t seem to match up with the earlier aerials. I included some of the pics posted earlier in the thread to show the difference between some of the bunkers. The 18th hole used to be a Road Hole style green in the earliest layouts and aerials. As you can see in the last picture above, the bunkers do not look like Raynor or Macdonald’s original road style bunkering. I am just curious who made the changes to the golf course?
Thanks again for sharing your information.
Bret
Bret,
Those bunkers you are inquiring about were present when I first started as a caddie in 1966. Incidentally we earned $5 per bag for a 18 hole loop. In 1982, we were earning $20 per bag.
There were only a few minor modifications performed on the course that I am aware of. I suspect they were performed internally as well. For example, on the 18th picture take note of the right bunker having an island fairway. To the right of that by the coniferous tree is a flat level that initially had the 12th tee box located there. Ben Z. told me it was relocated at the request of members after one too many had to dodge errant tee shots off the 18th. I will discuss other minor modifications to the course that I am aware of in another post later day.
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A routing map:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Links3_zpse0d72f03.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Links3_zpse0d72f03.jpg.html)
I have pasted the routing map from Sven's first post to discuss the minor changes performed on the course. I already mentioned the relocation of the 12th tee. Additionally, the 17th tee was relocated as well. Initially this hole was a par 5 and the tee shown in the above routing map in close proximity of the 13th Redan green. The hole was a par 4 during my tenure with the tee box in close proximity of the 16th green. I would venture to say maybe 40 yards were shaved off this hole with the relocation of the tee. The old par 5 tee box was easily identifiable during my years there. It actually came into play on errant tee shots from the 13th.
The fairways on holes 4 and 17 were no longer double fairways and there was a distinct rough between the two holes. There were a few sand bunkers that were either modified or removed prior to my arrival. On hole 3, the trap had a grass break to allow foot traffic to the next tee. On the 6th, the left back trap was overgrown with a cluster of trees. The following 7th hole, the first two traps closest from the tee were removed.
On the back nine, hole 12, the large trap closest to the tee box was abandoned and not evident. On hole 14, the back sand trap was overgrown and if a ball was hit in the area it would be difficult to find. Also on that hole the bunker located at the beginning of the cluster of trees on the right was converted to a grass bunker. On the 17th, there was an addition of a near fairway wide trap about 50-70 yards before the green. Perhaps this was added when the hole was a par 5 to make it a little more challenging? It certainly did not come to play when it was a par 4. Finally, as mentioned previously, on the 18th the right side sand trap was not continuous. It was a series of traps nicely line behind one another.
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A routing map:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Links3_zpse0d72f03.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Links3_zpse0d72f03.jpg.html)
The routing map is missing a few minor water hazards. Hole 2 had a water filled low lying ravine located in close proximity of the hole's three tee boxes. This ravine ran from the left of the short course tee in a horizontal direction towards hole 8. This ravine came into play for players on hole 8 as well. A culvert crossing allowed foot traffic to proceed to the 8th green. There was a tiny pond on the opposite side of the water ravine. Tom Doak pictures on previous posts highlight this water hazard.
Another small holding pond was located on hole 9 on the left about 30 yards short of the green. This occasionally came into play for players teeing off the 325 yard regular course. The final water hazard, a fair size pond, was located on hole 14 about 75 yards from the tee on the left. This hardly came into play unless the drive was seriously duck hooked.
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Like others I just want to thank Richard for providing such valuable and descriptive first-hand insight on a course that so few were able to play (and belated thanks to Tom Doak for his photos as well). It's been on my to-do list for several months to write a brief historical feature on the Links Club and this new info will certainly help.
There are a couple of long-departed Long Island courses for which I've been hoping to find similar accounts. Some have been gone so long that time is running out for any first-hand perspective, unfortunately. So it's refreshing to peruse Richard's work here on the Links.
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Like others I just want to thank Richard for providing such valuable and descriptive first-hand insight on a course that so few were able to play (and belated thanks to Tom Doak for his photos as well). It's been on my to-do list for several months to write a brief historical feature on the Links Club and this new info will certainly help.
There are a couple of long-departed Long Island courses for which I've been hoping to find similar accounts. Some have been gone so long that time is running out for any first-hand perspective, unfortunately. So it's refreshing to peruse Richard's work here on the Links.
Phil-I would be interested in a more in-depth look at the Mac/Raynor version of Deepdale. I don’t know if there is a thread that specifically delves into it’s thirty year existence.
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Richard,
Thank you for that information. I realized last night that the layout shown earlier in the thread that we keep referring to is from Daniel Wexler’s Missing Links. The layout was likely made in the late 90’s early 2000’s. Wexler also mentions the possibility that Perry Maxwell recommended changes to the Links Club in the 1930’s. Do we have any information that backs this up?
After looking at the aerials a little more last night it appears the pond on 11 was shifted from the north to the south between 1926 and 1940. In the 1926 aerial it appears the bail out for the hole is left, closer to the road. In 1940 the pond is shifted south and the bailout is now on the right closer to the 18th hole. Here are two aerials to show the pond shifting:
1926 Aerial:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(11).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/a2af91bd-04bc-47a2-9cb9-a9d3f7ae8ec2)
1954 Aerial (1940 aerial shows the same thing, I just had this 1954 version handy to post)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(10).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/34b0986c-8413-403f-99de-5df1c91f0d41)
Bret
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The demise of the Links Club course was one of those circumstances in a small group or club where most have some interest but less than a single individual who is in a position to get something done. The club had dropped to well under a hundred members but those remaining had pockets deep enough to keep the club open in spite of the land's high real estate value. There was significant opposition to the sale from members, certainly enough of them to keep the club financially solvent, and a large group of young, wealthy members eager to keep the club open. But the sale was rammed through, members receiving a payment that was surprisingly small. It was sad for golf, losing a CBM course which under slightly different circumstances would still be here today.
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Richard,
Thank you for that information. I realized last night that the layout shown earlier in the thread that we keep referring to is from Daniel Wexler’s Missing Links. The layout was likely made in the late 90’s early 2000’s. Wexler also mentions the possibility that Perry Maxwell recommended changes to the Links Club in the 1930’s. Do we have any information that backs this up?
After looking at the aerials a little more last night it appears the pond on 11 was shifted from the north to the south between 1926 and 1940. In the 1926 aerial it appears the bail out for the hole is left, closer to the road. In 1940 the pond is shifted south and the bailout is now on the right closer to the 18th hole. Here are two aerials to show the pond shifting:
1926 Aerial:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(11).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/a2af91bd-04bc-47a2-9cb9-a9d3f7ae8ec2)
1954 Aerial (1940 aerial shows the same thing, I just had this 1954 version handy to post)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(10).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/34b0986c-8413-403f-99de-5df1c91f0d41)
Bret
Bret,
I was not aware of any discussions by the pro Joe or Ben the superintendent about any early year renovation. Your aerial pictures though cannot deny the fact that the layout of the 11th was changed. One can only speculate on why that change.
Concerning the routing map, I would have to say it dates back to an early year model. The double 4th and 17th fairway were no longer in play in the 1960's. Additionally, if the scale of the map is accurate it clearly matches the "old" 17 tee in close proximity to the 13th green.
Regarding the Wexler book, I have a copy as well. His Links scorecard deviates slightly from the modern version posted by Sven and I. The majority of the discrepancy lays on the 17th where the author shows it as a 450 yard par 5. The modern scorecard version shows it as a 400 yard par 4. The other discrepancies show the modern version of the 9th at 353 yards versus 333 yards. The 16th shows the modern version at 166 yards versus 154 yards.
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Like others I just want to thank Richard for providing such valuable and descriptive first-hand insight on a course that so few were able to play (and belated thanks to Tom Doak for his photos as well). It's been on my to-do list for several months to write a brief historical feature on the Links Club and this new info will certainly help.
There are a couple of long-departed Long Island courses for which I've been hoping to find similar accounts. Some have been gone so long that time is running out for any first-hand perspective, unfortunately. So it's refreshing to peruse Richard's work here on the Links.
As I said in the past, I appreciate the kind words expressed and the warm welcome. If anyone wants to discuss the history of the Links verbally with me I will be happy to do so. Send me a PM and I will respond. This includes you too Phil. I am not sure if you have received my PM's or my email. My pictures are certainly available for you to use in your upcoming article.
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Here's a 1974 aerial. I may add a few more as I find them in my archives.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51834731613_22f9bcdc84_o.jpg)
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A 1954 Aerial
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51833699427_2ef0b100e7_o.jpg)
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A 1966 Aerial
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51834641466_48e0b51e80_o.jpg)
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This may be one of the last aerials taken before the course closed. This aerial is from 1984:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(12).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/d4f7f674-ee5b-4085-8067-bdb852aa2fd3)
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Josh and Bret,
Great aerial shots especially for someone like me who grew up a mile from the Links. Seeing the 30 year development of the area is bittersweet. I am happy those shots highlight some of my comments I made earlier regarding some of the minor changes to the course. The minor water hazards were also visibly shown. I am partial to the 1984 color aerial showing those hazards along with the 2nd hole foot bridge and the 8th hole culvert crossing. You can also clearly see all of the courses tee boxes including the three boxes on the 2nd and the “old”12th and 17th.
Regarding the 1966 aerial, it looks like the 11th hole pond barely contains water. This was not unusual. Depending on weather conditions the pond was known to be dry. For history buffs, across Shelter Rock Road at the 9th green stood a building that housed the office of the Nassau County Boy Scout Council headquarters. It also contained about a 30 acre short term camping area known by locals as the Harkness Scout Camp. To the north of the 9th green, across I.U. Willets Road, was vacant land that eventually would become condominiums. Traveling west on this road would shortly take you to the Buckley Country Day School. This is still in existence to this day. Finally take note of the land along the 14th hole. There was an estate there. The entrance to the estate was at the end of Old Courthouse Road. The estate was reached by crossing a bridge over the Motor Parkway. The bridge was still there back in the fall of 2019 when I last visited my family.
The 1984 aerial, really shows the residential development around the course. To the north of the 9th green was the condominium community The Cricket Club of North Hills, further north was Acorn Ponds of North Hills. Across the 9th green still stood the Boy Scout building but the scout camp was developed into single family homes. Along the 14th fairway was The Gates of North Hills. These condominium communities were all developed around 1977.
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Richard,
It’s very interesting to hear your memories. Can you tell me more about the 7th hole called Mounds? Were there mounds in the green or around the green? If you compare the aerials that Josh posted above you can see the 7th green bunkers (and perhaps the green) were altered between 1954 and 1966. The new bunkers catch your eye, because it throws the scale of the green off in comparison to the hole. You mentioned earlier that the seventh green was the smallest green on the course. Perhaps this change between 1954 and 1966 is why?
Bret
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Richard,
It’s very interesting to hear your memories. Can you tell me more about the 7th hole called Mounds? Were there mounds in the green or around the green? If you compare the aerials that Josh posted above you can see the 7th green bunkers (and perhaps the green) were altered between 1954 and 1966. The new bunkers catch your eye, because it throws the scale of the green off in comparison to the hole. You mentioned earlier that the seventh green was the smallest green on the course. Perhaps this change between 1954 and 1966 is why?
Bret
Thanks for your comments Bret. I am enjoying reminiscing about my youth although my wife is claiming to be a golf widow again with the time I am spending on this site! There are indeed mounds on this hole. They were not as pronounced as the ones on the 1st hole but aesthetic none the less. There were three perhaps four that were situated directly to the right of the large center trap protecting the green. If you look ever so closely to the picture Stewart posted of this hole you can see the mounds.
Your sharp eye again certainly reveals a design change to the green. The Wexler routing map also can lay claim to that. I remember Ben, the superintendent, telling me of this. I did not feel comfortable mentioning this initially not having any facts to share.
The mounds certainly would have come into play in its initial design. The 1954 aerial faintly shows them prior to the green on right. Similar to the location of the 1st green. The green appears larger as well. Behind the green there was not much distance to the heavily wooded area. The second shot to the green, hit too long, would catch the back traps in the initial design. Where as in the revised design those errant shots would catch the woods aided by a sloped descent. I would say the later design was more difficult a hole than the initial design. It looks like the size of the green was half its size. It was certainly postage stamp size when I was there.
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Richard,
Thank you for the detailed answer regarding the 7th hole. Here is a blown up version of the 7th hole from a 1922 Golfers Magazine advertisement. This aerial is shown on the first page of this thread if anyone wants a clearer look. I just blew it up to show some of the original features on this hole that faded away over time. There used to be a lot more trouble on and around this fairway back in 1922.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(13).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/c2f6871a-db27-4403-945b-3d669689d793)
I would also agree with your earlier statement that the layout shown on the first page represents an earlier version of the course. The layout looks like it used the 1926 aerial as a guide whereas George Bahto’s map in his book was from a later version of the course, closer to the 1974 or 1984 version. I think the culvert near 2 and 8 wasn’t as noticeable in the earlier aerials. If you had never been on the property, you may not know water even existed there. On some of the early aerials it looks like grass instead of water separating the 2nd tee and the 2nd fairway. The water expanded over time until it became large enough to see on the aerials around 1974.
Bret
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Richard,
Thank you for the detailed answer regarding the 7th hole. Here is a blown up version of the 7th hole from a 1922 Golfers Magazine advertisement. This aerial is shown on the first page of this thread if anyone wants a clearer look. I just blew it up to show some of the original features on this hole that faded away over time. There used to be a lot more trouble on and around this fairway back in 1922.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(13).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/c2f6871a-db27-4403-945b-3d669689d793)
I would also agree with your earlier statement that the layout shown on the first page represents an earlier version of the course. The layout looks like it used the 1926 aerial as a guide whereas George Bahto’s map in his book was from a later version of the course, closer to the 1974 or 1984 version. I think the culvert near 2 and 8 wasn’t as noticeable in the earlier aerials. If you had never been on the property, you may not know water even existed there. On some of the early aerials it looks like grass instead of water separating the 2nd tee and the 2nd fairway. The water expanded over time until it became large enough to see on the aerials around 1974.
Bret
Bret,
I am sure it is not just me enjoying your investigative findings showing course modifications on the 7th and 11th holes. Perhaps if you are up for another challenge you might want to tackle the 16th tee location discrepancy mentioned by Tom Doak in post 3. Not that this information has to be confirmed but it is undoubtedly true in what Mr. Doak revealed.
This was another topic I felt uncomfortable mentioning at first since my facts are vague. Superintendent Ben casually mentioned one time to me that the tee box on 16 was relocated during the early years of play. He did not explain why. One has to initially think that it seemed that after finishing the 15th it was an unnecessary trek to the 16th tee as shown in the 1924 aerial overlay. It would be interesting to see if the earliest of aerials reveal the Eden template at the initial location.
Changing the subject, the location of the 15th tee in the 1924 aerial overlay was a surprise to me. If accurate, that tee box was certainly in a odd location considering after finishing the 14th hole one would have to walk skirting the 5th green and 6th tee. From there it was downhill on a path alongside the final part of the 5th fairway to the tee. The drive from that tee would then have to cross the 5th fairway on to 15th fairway. I do have to say though the tee location there would undoubtedly keep the hole in a "valley" from start to finish. This is contrary to the Valley template (from what I understand it is) by driving the tee shot down into a valley. This is yet another investigation in its self.
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Richard,
I think Tom was just pointing out that the colored overlay of the 1922 aerial had the angle wrong for the 16th hole. I would definitely agree with this. I think the orientation of the aerial is set up so we are looking at the 16th green head on, or as it would be played. This is one of the holes where it is hard to see the tee boxes on the old aerial. I think if you refer to the layout posted from Missing Links you will see the proper angle into this hole. I can not speak to whether this tee box was moved or not over the years, without seeing an original scorecard of the course.
What year is your scorecard from Richard?
As for the Valley hole, I would agree there isn’t really a good definition for what a Valley hole entails. I think it’s more than playing from a high spot to a valley fairway. Raynor included Valley holes on a large percentage of his courses, so I think there are certain strategic decisions to be made when playing Valley holes. I think one common theme among Valley holes is the body of the fairway seems to be similar on all of these holes. The greens tend to have different variations but the tee shot is almost always to a fairway that has a crooked bottleneck feature in the approach. if you look at the 1922 aerial you can make out a few fairway bunkers on 15 that would have pinched the fairway from the right. The trees on the left pinched the fairway from the left, making the approach very narrow. If you pair that with the left greenside bunker it forms a crooked bottleneck approach in its original design. I think some of these holes hold up well with time because the farther you hit your tee shot the more precise your line needs to be. I think the 11th at Yale is a good example that exemplifies this design in its original form. This is all my own speculation on the Valley hole. It’s very much a feature or design that could use a re-examination.
Richard, Can you tell us about some amazing shots you may have seen. Hole-in-one’s, hole-outs or big putts during a high stakes match?
Bret
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Richard,
I think Tom was just pointing out that the colored overlay of the 1922 aerial had the angle wrong for the 16th hole. I would definitely agree with this. I think the orientation of the aerial is set up so we are looking at the 16th green head on, or as it would be played. This is one of the holes where it is hard to see the tee boxes on the old aerial. I think if you refer to the layout posted from Missing Links you will see the proper angle into this hole. I can not speak to whether this tee box was moved or not over the years, without seeing an original scorecard of the course.
What year is your scorecard from Richard?
As for the Valley hole, I would agree there isn’t really a good definition for what a Valley hole entails. I think it’s more than playing from a high spot to a valley fairway. Raynor included Valley holes on a large percentage of his courses, so I think there are certain strategic decisions to be made when playing Valley holes. I think one common theme among Valley holes is the body of the fairway seems to be similar on all of these holes. The greens tend to have different variations but the tee shot is almost always to a fairway that has a crooked bottleneck feature in the approach. if you look at the 1922 aerial you can make out a few fairway bunkers on 15 that would have pinched the fairway from the right. The trees on the left pinched the fairway from the left, making the approach very narrow. If you pair that with the left greenside bunker it forms a crooked bottleneck approach in its original design. I think some of these holes hold up well with time because the farther you hit your tee shot the more precise your line needs to be. I think the 11th at Yale is a good example that exemplifies this design in its original form. This is all my own speculation on the Valley hole. It’s very much a feature or design that could use a re-examination.
Richard, Can you tell us about some amazing shots you may have seen. Hole-in-one’s, hole-outs or big putts during a high stakes match?
Bret
My scorecard is more than likely from my final years at the Links, 1979-1982. That card matches the one in Sven's first post. I appreciate your interpretation of a Valley hole of not being a one type fits all style. Case in point the NGLA Valley hole which I was fortunate to play one time in 1981. Upon initial examination to me those two holes have little visual in common. Your description however can match multiple similarities between those holes at the two courses. Thanks for explaining.
Amazing shots and events that I witnessed at the Links? Thanks for asking. Most memorable was an ace on the 16th by Hart Fesseden. I watched the ball land on the green and slowly roll into the hole. Mr. Fesseden was unaware of his feat. When I quickly told him he was dubious of it. As we approached the green, with no ball in sight, he changed his doubt to joy. The most memorable par was on the par 3 8th. There was a foursome of priests that were friends of Joe Phillips. One of the players duffed his shot in the left water hazard. His third shot off the tee was a line drive screamer that hit the flag stick and disappeared into the hole.
My favorite member to caddie for was Jean Ribaud, former CEO of Schlumberger LTD. He was the best tipper as well. The best tip was from Ned Lord who in winning a two team best ball tournament sent me a check for $200 in the early 80's. Best near scratch golfer was James Robinson lll, former CEO of American Express. After the club closure he became a member of Deepdale.
My most embarrassing moment (at an early age) was unsuccessfully parking a golf cart at the 5th tee and then watching it roll down the valley. Chasing it down the hill was in vain. My best shot as a golfer was a near ace on the Redan 13th. My best score was an 18 hole 85 but not playing the 10th. Caddies were only allowed to hit a drive off the tee on that hole but skip subsequent shots. Hitting either the clubhouse or pro shop would forbid us for ever playing again on the course. Maybe permanently vanished off the premises!
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Richard,
I think Tom was just pointing out that the colored overlay of the 1922 aerial had the angle wrong for the 16th hole. I would definitely agree with this. I think the orientation of the aerial is set up so we are looking at the 16th green head on, or as it would be played. This is one of the holes where it is hard to see the tee boxes on the old aerial. I think if you refer to the layout posted from Missing Links you will see the proper angle into this hole. I can not speak to whether this tee box was moved or not over the years, without seeing an original scorecard of the course.
What year is your scorecard from Richard?
As for the Valley hole, I would agree there isn’t really a good definition for what a Valley hole entails. I think it’s more than playing from a high spot to a valley fairway. Raynor included Valley holes on a large percentage of his courses, so I think there are certain strategic decisions to be made when playing Valley holes. I think one common theme among Valley holes is the body of the fairway seems to be similar on all of these holes. The greens tend to have different variations but the tee shot is almost always to a fairway that has a crooked bottleneck feature in the approach. if you look at the 1922 aerial you can make out a few fairway bunkers on 15 that would have pinched the fairway from the right. The trees on the left pinched the fairway from the left, making the approach very narrow. If you pair that with the left greenside bunker it forms a crooked bottleneck approach in its original design. I think some of these holes hold up well with time because the farther you hit your tee shot the more precise your line needs to be. I think the 11th at Yale is a good example that exemplifies this design in its original form. This is all my own speculation on the Valley hole. It’s very much a feature or design that could use a re-examination.
Richard, Can you tell us about some amazing shots you may have seen. Hole-in-one’s, hole-outs or big putts during a high stakes match?
Bret
My scorecard is more than likely from my final years at the Links, 1979-1982. That card matches the one in Sven's first post. I appreciate your interpretation of a Valley hole of not being a one type fits all style. Case in point the NGLA Valley hole which I was fortunate to play one time in 1981. Upon initial examination to me those two holes have little visual in common. Your description however can match multiple similarities between those holes at the two courses. Thanks for explaining.
Amazing shots and events that I witnessed at the Links? Thanks for asking. Most memorable was an ace on the 16th by Hart Fesseden. I watched the ball land on the green and slowly roll into the hole. Mr. Fesseden was unaware of his feat. When I quickly told him he was dubious of it. As we approached the green, with no ball in sight, he changed his doubt to joy. The most memorable par was on the par 3 8th. There was a foursome of priests that were friends of Joe Phillips. One of the players duffed his shot in the left water hazard. His third shot off the tee was a line drive screamer that hit the flag stick and disappeared into the hole.
My favorite member to caddie for was Jean Ribaud, former CEO of Schlumberger LTD. He was the best tipper as well. The best tip was from Ned Lord who in winning a two team best ball tournament sent me a check for $200 in the early 80's. Best near scratch golfer was James Robinson lll, former CEO of American Express. After the club closure he became a member of Deepdale.
My most embarrassing moment (at an early age) was unsuccessfully parking a golf cart at the 5th tee and then watching it roll down the valley. Chasing it down the hill was in vain. My best shot as a golfer was a near ace on the Redan 13th. My best score was an 18 hole 85 but not playing the 10th. Caddies were only allowed to hit a drive off the tee on that hole but skip subsequent shots. Hitting either the clubhouse or pro shop would forbid us for ever playing again on the course. Maybe permanently vanished off the premises!
Richard-That’s great stuff!!!! You mentioned James Robinson went to Deepdale. There was no shortage of great clubs that those guys had to choose from on the Gold Coast.
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Tim,
Totally agree that the members had no worries finding another club to join. Several local members residing in Old Westbury, Brookville, and surrounding areas were already members of Piping Rock, The Creek, and other local high end clubs. Sadly for them it was one less course to play when they were planning their next outing. I would have to think Deepdale would be an out of town member first choice to join after departing the Links being in close proximity of one another.
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Richard-I will speak for Bret and say we would love to have you come over to Yale this coming season if they ease the Connecticut only resident requirement that’s resulted from Covid-19. You can get a look before it’s restored and regale us with more tales from the Links Club. I am truly enjoying the resurgence of this thread!
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Richard-I will speak for Bret and say we would love to have you come over to Yale this coming season if they ease the Connecticut only resident requirement that’s resulted from Covid-19. You can get a look before it’s restored and regale us with more tales from the Links Club. I am truly enjoying the resurgence of this thread!
There are plenty of tales to tell I can grant you that. Some can be only told verbally! I do have some more postings in the coming days that hopefully will be informative to you all. Also, that is a tempting over to come up north again. That’s awful nice gesture.
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Another interesting story I can share has to deal with the privacy of the club to the outside world. This story is perfect to lead in to earlier post by Tom Doak in his saying Ben Crenshaw was unfamiliar with this facility. It certainly speaks volumes when someone of Mr. Crenshaw's stature as a golf historian had not heard of the Links.
Just a few years earlier Mr. Crenshaw was involved in a playing a round in what the New York Times reported as the 18 best holes in the New York City metropolitan area. Here is the link:
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/04/sports/the-750-mile-dream-course.html (https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/04/sports/the-750-mile-dream-course.html)
I have been blessed with a very good memory and specifically remember reading this article when it was released. During one of my loops, on the weekend after the article was published, I remember talking to one of the members on why Mr. Crenshaw's foursome did not play a Links hole. The member quietly and quickly said that we do not want the notoriety. This was always the mindset at the club whether it be a member or the management. I never did ask Joe Phillips why the Links was not included in this event but I am confident he would have said the same thing.
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Another interesting story I can share has to deal with the privacy of the club to the outside world. This story is perfect to lead in to earlier post by Tom Doak in his saying Ben Crenshaw was unfamiliar with this facility. It certainly speaks volumes when someone of Mr. Crenshaw's stature as a golf historian had not heard of the Links.
Just a few years earlier Mr. Crenshaw was involved in a playing a round in what the New York Times reported as the 18 best holes in the New York City metropolitan area. Here is the link:
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/04/sports/the-750-mile-dream-course.html (https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/04/sports/the-750-mile-dream-course.html)
I have been blessed with a very good memory and specifically remember reading this article when it was released. During one of my loops, on the weekend after the article was published, I remember talking to one of the members on why Mr. Crenshaw's foursome did not play a Links hole. The member quietly and quickly said that we do not want the notoriety. This was always the mindset at the club whether it be a member or the management. I never did ask Joe Phillips why the Links was not included in this event but I am confident he would have said the same thing.
I wonder if anyone has the technical skills to make the article or at least the map legible? I can’t decipher the text on either an IPhone or IPad.Thanks.
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Tim,
None of the Times article is legible?
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Tim,
None of the Times article is legible?
Rich-The article itself in the Times and the map are not legible for me but I did scroll down below and find a printed copy of the text without the map. Sorry for the confusion.
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Tim,
None of the Times article is legible?
Rich-The article itself in the Times and the map are not legible for me but I did scroll down below and find a printed copy of the text without the map. Sorry for the confusion.
Good! I was going to bring that to your attention and now others will take notice as well. Hope everyone enjoys the article.
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Tim,
None of the Times article is legible?
Rich-The article itself in the Times and the map are not legible for me but I did scroll down below and find a printed copy of the text without the map. Sorry for the confusion.
Good! I was going to bring that to your attention and now others will take notice as well. Hope everyone enjoys the article.
Rich-Great article and quite the quest some forty years ago. I can’t imagine any of the participants were longing for another helicopter ride any time soon after their accomplishment. :)
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Richard,
Thanks for sharing your amazing shots and scores stories. The story about the caddies not being able to play 10 is interesting. There was a recent story on Edward Harkness’ private estate course in Waterford, CT. In that story, Harkness let a young boy play the course whenever he wanted, but the boy wasn’t allowed to play the ninth hole, because of the proximity to the house.
I enjoyed the story on Ben Crenshaw playing the 750-mile, 18-hole course in the early 80’s. Please keep the stories coming.
Bret
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Richard,
Thanks for sharing your amazing shots and scores stories. The story about the caddies not being able to play 10 is interesting. There was a recent story on Edward Harkness’ private estate course in Waterford, CT. In that story, Harkness let a young boy play the course whenever he wanted, but the boy wasn’t allowed to play the ninth hole, because of the proximity to the house.
I enjoyed the story on Ben Crenshaw playing the 750-mile, 18-hole course in the early 80’s. Please keep the stories coming.
Bret
Bret,
Rest assure I do have a few more stories to post. Your comments about Edward Harkness piqued my curiosity to learn who this man was. Happy I did! He is the individual that deeded land across from the Links on Shelter Rock Road to the Nassau County Boy Scouts in 1934. This was mentioned in a previous post but I did not know at the time the magnitude of the philanthropy this man performed. Another interesting note was his estate in Manhasset is now part of North Hills Country Club. Occasionally I would sneak over there to caddie when there were tournaments and play at the Links was slow.
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I am going to give my best recollection on topography details of holes 4-6 since there are no pictures available in this thread. It certainly will not be as descriptive as Mr. Doak's input but I will do my best.
Hole 4 Hilltop (Modified 2/17/22 To Include 1984 Aerial View) Tee Box located in Lower Right Corner of picture
(https://i.ibb.co/w7xSL2L/Hole-4-Hilltop.jpg)
The tee box at times could host a gathering of foursomes. It was in close proximity of the 3rd and 17th greens and the 18th tee. A drive off the 4th required a carry of around 190 yards to a fairway plateau. Short of the plateau on the left was a deep sand trap. No more than a 7 iron could be used to safely exit the trap. Balls hit below the plateau, other than the left trap, could be safe in a generous wide fairway. The fairway plateau was around 30 yards in length then sloped down into a mini valley. From there it was a gradual upward trek to the green.
I never caddied for many long hitters but making the green in two was occasionally done. It required a long drive and a precise second shot. There were two fairway bunkers short of the green, a pretty pot bunker to the right of the green, and a long narrow sand trap extending from the back left of the green well down the left side of the fairway. I can't remember the contour of the green but nothing drastic comes to mind.
Hole 5 Woods (Modified 2/17/22 To Include 1984 Aerial View) Tee Box Located in Right Center Border of the picture
(https://i.ibb.co/Y8Cx2jQ/Hole-Five-Woods.jpg)
This certainly deserved the number 2 stroke rating in my opinion. The line of play from the tee had the fairway serpentine sand trap staring you in the face. It was usually not a problem in clearing this trap but two traps further down the right would come into play. The angle of play however favored the drive into the center or left side of the fairway. The fairway was level until about 180 yards from the green then followed a deep drop into another mini valley and then a steep climb to the green.
Long hitters would generally lay up before the fairway descent with a long iron. Go for broke drives required an additional 20 yards or so to avoid difficult downhill stances on the sloped fairway. The second shot to the green, wherever located, required the correct distance to safely hold and stay. Any shot short of the green would roll down a steep descending fairway for about 20 yards. The flag stick would not be visible at that point. Shots short of the green to the left or right of the fairway would catch deep sand traps. To put the steepness in perspective, the grounds crew would hand mow this area with the aid of a rope to pull the mower up and down.
Once on the green there was ample space to putt or if long, to chip back. During tournament play the flag stick was usually in the front right. Besides the danger of hitting the ball short at that pin placement there was a lone massive oak tree about 40 yards before the green on the right. That also caught many a ball.
Hole 6 Road (Modified 2/17/22 To Include 1984 Aerial View) Tee Box Located in Left Corner of the picture
(https://i.ibb.co/2KXTXXP/Hole-Six-Road.jpg)
The tee box was in close proximity of the Northern State Parkway. The homes occupying the grounds of the Links can be seen on the east side of the highway between New Hyde Park and Shelter Rock Roads.
This picturesque hole playing as a par five was a stretch. It would have made so much more to a challenging par four. Securing a par was highly probable as long as you kept your drive in the fairway or at least to the right. The fairway noted no elevation change other than a mild climb shortly off the tee. The road to the left in early aerials did not come into play during my tenure. Tall privet type hedge ran between the road and the rough. This hedge extended along the 7th and 8th holes as well. In the late 1960's, there were gated side entrances to the course along this road by the the 6th green and by the 8th culvert crossing. They were used primarily for maintenance supply deliveries. By the mid 1970's the entrances were overgrown.
Short drives off the tee had players face a second shot that could catch three center sand traps about 70 yards from the green. Two deep bunkers to the right of the green were challenging as well. The green was far from flat. Players were encouraged to keep the approach shot short of the flag stick in order to putt uphill. Downhill putts could have devastating consequences. Three putting this green was commonplace.
As a young caddie, not knowing proper etiquette, I was walking around this green while a member was attempting to putt. I was verbally reprimanded in a most nasty way of this infraction. In later years, this member John M. Schiff, became one of my regular loops and a good tipper. His wife "Fifi" was the widow of John R. Fell and a very pleasant person. Back in my day there was an annual tournament at the Meadowbrook Club in honor of Mr. Fell. I wonder if this tournament is still ongoing? Phil Carlucci, would you know?
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The demise of the Links Club course was one of those circumstances in a small group or club where most have some interest but less than a single individual who is in a position to get something done. The club had dropped to well under a hundred members but those remaining had pockets deep enough to keep the club open in spite of the land's high real estate value. There was significant opposition to the sale from members, certainly enough of them to keep the club financially solvent, and a large group of young, wealthy members eager to keep the club open. But the sale was rammed through, members receiving a payment that was surprisingly small. It was sad for golf, losing a CBM course which under slightly different circumstances would still be here today.
I have to say in my opinion Mr. Disher's comments is the most accurate assessment offered to date in GCA threads regarding the eventual closure of the club. In the final years of the club, my status as a leading caddie gave me the opportunity to listen to many casual conversations about the imminent closing. One in particular was a loop with the golf pro and Benno Schmidt Sr., a business partner of Jock Whitney. He was certainly against the sale and was quite vocal about it. Although I just listened to this conversation there were occasions that I was able to talk to other members about this topic. It was certainly a sad subject. As I stated previously, looping back in 1982, I witnessed healthy play and most members dismayed about the status of course closure.
I also can vouch that many young junior members certainly were interested in seeing the Club continue in the years ahead. The last few years there was a popular tournament organized by some junior members called the Kummel Cup. I remember asking one of the participants why the name and was told this spirit is popular across the pond for players about to play a round.
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I am going to give my best recollection on topography details of holes 4-6 since there are no pictures available in this thread. It certainly will not be as descriptive as Mr. Doak's input but I will do my best.
Hole 4 Hilltop - The tee box at times could host a gathering of foursomes. It was in close proximity of the 3rd and 17th greens and the 18th tee. A drive off the 4th required a carry of around 190 yards to a fairway plateau. Short of the plateau on the left was a deep sand trap. No more than a 7 iron could be used to safely exit the trap. Balls hit below the plateau, other than the left trap, could be safe in a generous wide fairway. The fairway plateau was around 30 yards in length then sloped down into a mini valley. From there it was a gradual upward trek to the green.
I never caddied for many long hitters but making the green in two was occasionally done. It required a long drive and a precise second shot. There were two fairway bunkers short of the green, a pretty pot bunker to the right of the green, and a long narrow sand trap extending from the back left of the green well down the left side of the fairway. I can't remember the contour of the green but nothing drastic comes to mind.
Hole 5 Woods - This certainly deserved the number 2 stroke rating in my opinion. The line of play from the tee had the fairway serpentine sand trap staring you in the face. It was usually not a problem in clearing this trap but two traps further down the right would come into play. The angle of play however favored the drive into the center or left side of the fairway. The fairway was level until about 180 yards from the green then followed a deep drop into another mini valley and then a steep climb to the green.
Long hitters would generally lay up before the fairway descent with a long iron. Go for broke drives required an additional 20 yards or so to avoid difficult downhill stances on the sloped fairway. The second shot to the green, wherever located, required the correct distance to safely hold and stay. Any shot short of the green would roll down a steep descending fairway for about 20 yards. The flag stick would not be visible at that point. Shots short of the green to the left or right of the fairway would catch deep sand traps. To put the steepness in perspective, the grounds crew would hand mow this area with the aid of a rope to pull the mower up and down.
Once on the green there was ample space to putt or if long, to chip back. During tournament play the flag stick was usually in the front right. Besides the danger of hitting the ball short at that pin placement there was a lone massive oak tree about 40 yards before the green on the right. That also caught many a ball.
Hole 6 Road - The tee box was in close proximity of the Northern State Parkway. The homes occupying the grounds of the Links can be seen on the east side of the highway between New Hyde Park and Shelter Rock Roads.
This picturesque hole playing as a par five was a stretch. It would have made so much more to a challenging par four. Securing a par was highly probable as long as you kept your drive in the fairway or at least to the right. The fairway noted no elevation change other than a mild climb shortly off the tee. The road to the left in early aerials did not come into play during my tenure. Tall privet type hedge ran between the road and the rough. This hedge extended along the 7th and 8th holes as well. In the late 1960's, there were gated side entrances to the course along this road by the the 6th green and by the 8th culvert crossing. They were used primarily for maintenance supply deliveries. By the mid 1970's the entrances were overgrown.
Short drives off the tee had players face a second shot that could catch three center sand traps about 70 yards from the green. Two deep bunkers to the right of the green were challenging as well. The green was far from flat. Players were encouraged to keep the approach shot short of the flag stick in order to putt uphill. Downhill putts could have devastating consequences. Three putting this green was commonplace.
As a young caddie, not knowing proper etiquette, I was walking around this green while a member was attempting to putt. I was verbally reprimanded in a most nasty way of this infraction. In later years, this member John M. Schiff, became one of my regular loops and a good tipper. His wife "Fifi" was the widow of John R. Fell and a very pleasant person. Back in my day there was an annual tournament at the Meadowbrook Club in honor of Mr. Fell. I wonder if this tournament is still ongoing? Phil Carlucci, would you know?
Great descriptions Richard. I’d love to hear your description for every hole and what you remember about the greens? Maybe we could go around the Links Golf Club one last time with you as our caddie?
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I am going to give my best recollection on topography details of holes 4-6 since there are no pictures available in this thread. It certainly will not be as descriptive as Mr. Doak's input but I will do my best.
Hole 4 Hilltop - The tee box at times could host a gathering of foursomes. It was in close proximity of the 3rd and 17th greens and the 18th tee. A drive off the 4th required a carry of around 190 yards to a fairway plateau. Short of the plateau on the left was a deep sand trap. No more than a 7 iron could be used to safely exit the trap. Balls hit below the plateau, other than the left trap, could be safe in a generous wide fairway. The fairway plateau was around 30 yards in length then sloped down into a mini valley. From there it was a gradual upward trek to the green.
I never caddied for many long hitters but making the green in two was occasionally done. It required a long drive and a precise second shot. There were two fairway bunkers short of the green, a pretty pot bunker to the right of the green, and a long narrow sand trap extending from the back left of the green well down the left side of the fairway. I can't remember the contour of the green but nothing drastic comes to mind.
Hole 5 Woods - This certainly deserved the number 2 stroke rating in my opinion. The line of play from the tee had the fairway serpentine sand trap staring you in the face. It was usually not a problem in clearing this trap but two traps further down the right would come into play. The angle of play however favored the drive into the center or left side of the fairway. The fairway was level until about 180 yards from the green then followed a deep drop into another mini valley and then a steep climb to the green.
Long hitters would generally lay up before the fairway descent with a long iron. Go for broke drives required an additional 20 yards or so to avoid difficult downhill stances on the sloped fairway. The second shot to the green, wherever located, required the correct distance to safely hold and stay. Any shot short of the green would roll down a steep descending fairway for about 20 yards. The flag stick would not be visible at that point. Shots short of the green to the left or right of the fairway would catch deep sand traps. To put the steepness in perspective, the grounds crew would hand mow this area with the aid of a rope to pull the mower up and down.
Once on the green there was ample space to putt or if long, to chip back. During tournament play the flag stick was usually in the front right. Besides the danger of hitting the ball short at that pin placement there was a lone massive oak tree about 40 yards before the green on the right. That also caught many a ball.
Hole 6 Road - The tee box was in close proximity of the Northern State Parkway. The homes occupying the grounds of the Links can be seen on the east side of the highway between New Hyde Park and Shelter Rock Roads.
This picturesque hole playing as a par five was a stretch. It would have made so much more to a challenging par four. Securing a par was highly probable as long as you kept your drive in the fairway or at least to the right. The fairway noted no elevation change other than a mild climb shortly off the tee. The road to the left in early aerials did not come into play during my tenure. Tall privet type hedge ran between the road and the rough. This hedge extended along the 7th and 8th holes as well. In the late 1960's, there were gated side entrances to the course along this road by the the 6th green and by the 8th culvert crossing. They were used primarily for maintenance supply deliveries. By the mid 1970's the entrances were overgrown.
Short drives off the tee had players face a second shot that could catch three center sand traps about 70 yards from the green. Two deep bunkers to the right of the green were challenging as well. The green was far from flat. Players were encouraged to keep the approach shot short of the flag stick in order to putt uphill. Downhill putts could have devastating consequences. Three putting this green was commonplace.
As a young caddie, not knowing proper etiquette, I was walking around this green while a member was attempting to putt. I was verbally reprimanded in a most nasty way of this infraction. In later years, this member John M. Schiff, became one of my regular loops and a good tipper. His wife "Fifi" was the widow of John R. Fell and a very pleasant person. Back in my day there was an annual tournament at the Meadowbrook Club in honor of Mr. Fell. I wonder if this tournament is still ongoing? Phil Carlucci, would you know?
Great descriptions Richard. I’d love to hear your description for every hole and what you remember about the greens? Maybe we could go around the Links Golf Club one last time with you as our caddie?
I will be happy to do so in the upcoming days. This weekend has had me consumed with collecting tax information. Oh what fun!
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With the help from pictures of aerial views and Tom Doak's slides here is my recollection of the holes on the the front nine not discussed in detail in previous posts. Even though I have been blessed with a good memory please remember these facts go back at least forty years ago.
Hole 2 Alps -
(https://i.ibb.co/f1Gh3Rv/Hole-2-Alps.jpg)
Note this hole had three distinct tee boxes and clearly evident in this aerial. The tee for the Championship Course (red tees) was near the left trap of hole 1. The drive from this tee required going over a cluster of trees in addition to the water hazard. You either had to hook or angle the ball in order to avoid going into the right rough. The drive from the Regular Course (green tees) and Short Course (white tees) avoided the trees. The water did not come into play unless the drive was duffed. Despite this I retrieved many a golf ball from this hazard.
There was an ever so slight elevation change off the tee on to the fairway on the other side of the water. As to its name, Alps, a sharp incline of the fairway began about 170 yards to the green. The second shot was blind only having a gnarly wooden pole indicating the back of the green. At the top of the "Alps" there were two sand traps that nearly covered the entire length of the fairway. Those traps hardly ever came into play. From that point it was about 60 yards downhill to the green that was now visible.
The green was well protected in the front with another set of two sand traps nearly surrounding the entire section there. Only a small foot path to the green separated the two traps. Tom Doak's reply post 5 shows the well protected green that caught many a short shot. The green contour is clearly shown in this picture as well. Unlike the NGLA Alps, when you ring the bell after finishing the hole, waiting players at the 2nd had to delay their shot until seeing the finishing group advancing to the third tee.
Hole 8 - Short
(https://i.ibb.co/8r7pnTx/Hole-Eight-Short.jpg)
This picture, courtesy of Tom Doak, is edited. The green, with the exception of the entry and exit points, clearly shows a surrounded sand trap. I wanted to point out the pin placement for tournaments was deviously placed in the left corner of the green near the mark of the right shadow. Also carefully note the exit point of the green near the underlining branches of the tree to the left. This was a 6-8 stairway step-down that had a a one-sided metal handrail for carefully exiting the green. After exiting the green it was a quick trek to the Hole 9 tee. The pond is evident and further down the elevated green.
The Hole 8 tee box itself was elevated but not a drastic drop to the green. The green undulation was not severe. I only recall a mid section ridge line covering the majority of the green with the exception of the far upper left area. On a personal note, this was always an easy hole for me to play. This is unlike my one and only time playing the Short at NGLA. My tee shot landed squarely on the green but it took me four putts to finish the hole.
Hole 9 - Corner
(https://i.ibb.co/s2Gthcs/Hole-Nine-Corner.jpg)
Using this 1954 aerial, unlike later ones, clearly shows the main tee box. This hole, like Number 2 Alps, had three distinct tee boxes. The tees for the red course was near parallel to the Hole 8 exit point. It was nestled in a small clump of trees and the drive had a narrow shoot. This tee box was abandoned in the late seventies. Forward 25 yards was the clearly visible green tees followed another 50 yards to the white tees.
The length of the pond from the green tees required around a 170 yard carry. The ideal route however was to carry the right fairway trap allowing the average hitter 120-140 yards to the green. The green, like Hole 5, required the correct distance to safely hold and stick. Any shot short of the green would roll down the steep descending fairway. The green noted a significant mid-section ridge line covering the majority of the green. The undulation back (toward the tees) required a delicate putting stroke to prevent the ball from rolling down into the fairway. This hole was more difficult than the yardage would indicate.
Back Nine Report Hopefully Tomorrow
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8) 8) 8) 8)
Wow! I've been reading this for the last 15 minutes and just really enjoying it
Good good stuff ;D
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This thread is a prime example of why we enjoy this site. Depth of information on a variety of courses with a collective effort by many, thanks Richard for sharing and others. Learned quite a bit.
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Here is my recollection of the holes on the back nine not discussed in detail in previous posts. This is with the assistance of pictures of aerial views provided by Bret and Josh along with a few of Tom Doak's slides. These pictures certainly helped me rekindle my memory of the course layout. I might also add that reply posts 54 and 55 were revised to include additional pictures for Holes 10 and 11.
Hole 12 - Plateau
(https://i.ibb.co/5K3WxN5/Hole-12.jpg)
This picture is from the 1954 aerial. I wanted to use this photo to bring out one of two key features of the hole, a saddle back hill (similar to Hole 2 Alps) that the player faced on the drive. This was a blind shot although caddies always made sure they showed an overview of the hole at Hole 11 green to the players. The tee box is located near the right center border of the picture near a small cluster of trees. The drive was an up and down shot over this saddleback hill. The hill can be seen north of the large lengthy sand trap (about one-third in from the right picture border). This trap was abandoned and not visible in later aerials.
(https://i.ibb.co/f889DzT/Hole-12-Near-Tee.jpg)
This above picture shows an overview of the hole from Hole 11 fairway. The tee is in the right corner by a tree cluster. The green is up another hill in front of a large cluster of trees.
(https://i.ibb.co/80sxBB9/Hole-12-Fairway-Top-resized.jpg)
This above picture, courtesy of Tom Doak (edited by me), shows the top of the saddleback hill from the left rough. Looking back in the left corner of the picture, the tee box is near what appears to be a growth of forsythia and then the cluster of trees. Hole 11 is also shown.
The objective of the drive off the red and green tees was to keep the ball on the right side of the fairway. This allowed the ball to catch the downside of the hill which resulted in a considerable lengthy fairway roll into a flat landing area. Balls landing in the center and left portion of the fairway had the tendency to veer left into an adjoining fairway that came into play from the white tee short course. (The short course tee box was situated behind Hole 11 green). Well driven shots, depending on the location of the roll off the hill, required a blind second shot ranging from 150-170 yards.
Despite the second shot being considered blind, players were able to determine the pin placement at the top of the saddleback hill. This was important since the green was two level. This two tier green was the second key feature of the hole. Having the ball land on the correct tier was critical to achieve a two putt. There was a significant incline from the front level to back level. During tournament play the pin placement was usually on the top level.
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Hole 13 - Redan
There is very little information I can add to the description of this hole. The earlier input by Tom Doak and Mark Bourgeois is superior in itself. The only thing I can add is that the tournament pin placement was devilishly placed in the right corner of the green. This made a difficult hole even harder.
Hole 14 - Long
(https://i.ibb.co/DYTKkpg/Hole-Fourteen.jpg)
The 1954 aerial above shows more of the course design that was in play during my tenure as a caddie. This aerial also shows Hole 15 in its entirety along with the majority of Hole 5 and part of Hole 6 fairway. The Motor Parkway route ran east-west on the bottom border. Red and green tees were in a small nook behind Hole 15 green separated by a dirt pathway used by service vehicles. White tees were around 70 yards further up. The direct route to these tees, after finishing Hole 13, was to cross the Hole 15 fairway to the tee box.
(https://i.ibb.co/X3LXszp/Hole-14-Tee.jpg)
This picture above, courtesy of Tom Doak, was edited to show the red and green tee box for Hole 14. It is off to the right of Hole 15 green by a bunch of scruffy looking bushes. There was a pond that rarely came into play between this tee box and the white short course tees. The hole noted a moderate upward elevation change for the first two shots of play.
The drive off the tee was challenged by a series of bunkers on both sides of the fairway. Depending on the length of the drive, the second shot was either played straight or as a dogleg right. Another series of bunkers in the right rough about could catch balls if players tried to cut their distance for the third shot. Another obstacle to the right was a lengthy line of mature trees.
Two good shots on this hole would generally greet the player with less than 150 yards to the green. I never witnessed a player reaching the green in two although Joe, the pro, told me he had achieved this feat. The green itself was unprotected from any obstacles. Balls hitting the green held remarkably well due in part to a slightly sunken putting surface. The green was relatively flat with no undulations that I can recall.
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Hole 15 - Valley
Pictures provided in reply post 18 by Tom Doak shows the two shots required for this hole. Additionally, the main characteristics of a McDonald Valley hole in the form of a crooked bottleneck approach is spot on as noted in reply post 101 by Bret Lawrence.
I think it is important to note the deepness of the front bunker in the picture below. This is an edited copy of a Tom Doak picture. Take note of the exit off the green in left center border of the picture. This was a 8-10 stairway step-down that had a a one-sided metal handrail for carefully exiting the green. Behind the green and on each side was a deep drop off. The drop off was similar to the one on Hole 3 green. There was little turf beyond the drop off and mostly hard surface. It was highly unlikely to make an up and down from there.
(https://i.ibb.co/HYVTJ7z/Hole-15-Green-Closeup-Resized.jpg)
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Hole 17 - Meadow
(https://i.ibb.co/jgQnJJZ/Hole-17-Meadow.jpg)
This above 1984 aerial shows the red and green tee box near the left center border of the picture besides a cluster of trees. White tees were around 50 yards further up. Hole 13 green was behind off center from the tee box while Hole 16 green was in close proximity.
The shot off the tee was wide open although it was critical to drive the ball left of center. The fairway right of center had a severe downward slope beginning about 160-170 yards off the men tees that would direct the ball into an inverted v shaped mini fairway ravine. Considerable distance was lost if hit in that direction. There was little elevation change, if staying left of center, for approximately the first 200 yards. Longer drives to the left could sometimes reach a fairway wide ridgeline to a now descending fairway and achieve considerable roll. About 120 yards from the green a steep incline began. Shots short of the green would usually not hold and run down the fairway.
The green was well protected on the left and right with deep bunkers. I believe there was a set of 2 or 3 mounds (similar to Hole 1 and 7) before the right green-side trap. The very first post of this thread mentions the green was undulating. In all honesty I can not remember at all the putting surface of the green. The green though, as mentioned in this post, was at the the highest level of the course. That is for sure!
This concludes my recollection of the course layout. I appreciate the opportunity to reminisce about my time spent on the Links. As I have mentioned in the past, I will be happy to answer any followup questions in the days, months, and hopefully years ahead. I will be 70 on Tuesday!
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Greetings All! I am back to revive this thread yet again. While working on another project over the weekend I stumbled across a nice side view picture of the Hole 10 green. As I mentioned previously, shots to this green were difficult to hold due to the descending slope from front to back. The attached picture displays the slope. Also, the deep right hand trap is clearly evident. The picture was taken near the defunct Vanderbilt Motor Parkway (VMP) private entrance to the club.
One side note on the private entrance road. The stretch of the VMP between New Hyde Park and Shelter Rock Roads bordered a good portion of the Links GC property. Each entrance to the old highway was gated preventing any public access. It was pretty much undisturbed during the operation of the club, only being used by utility trucks with LILCO, the local energy company. On one memorable occasion in the late 70's, waiting for a group of caddies from nearby Deepdale GC to assist us in a tournament, a car arrived into the club via the private entrance. They were able to navigate the road due to the gate being opened at New Hyde Park Road. It could have been the first time the entrance was used after the demise of the road some 40 years earlier. It was a sight to be seen!
The posted picture was secured from VanderbiltCupRaces.com website. The specific link housing this photo is
https://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/blog/article/mystery_friday_foto_3_a_unique_opening_on_the_long_island_motor_parkway (https://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/blog/article/mystery_friday_foto_3_a_unique_opening_on_the_long_island_motor_parkway)This website also shows additional posts with cool aerials of the area around the Links including the old Glen Oaks Club that was located nearby at the Queens/Nassau County border.
(https://i.ibb.co/r7GK1tg/MP-Entrance-2.jpg)
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Richard directed my attention to a New York Times article from August 20th, 1989. This article notes that North Hills was started by 60 families that owned 1700 acres of adjoining land in North Hempstead. By the 1970’s the zoning laws had been changed to pursue development, against the wishes of many of the original founders of the village. This article paints a picture of the inevitable demise of the Links Golf Club.
I had a little trouble posting this article. To read the article, read the entire top page first then jump back to the left column after the page break.
New York Times., August 20, 1989:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender_1pwHdQndNTwpwfiLsbRW4L.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/c2d2357f-9f34-4a12-acb4-1066e7c96bf9)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender_9sHAxKPys9oqV4aMeUZbs5.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/2b25792b-a476-411e-88a5-1d88e986925c)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender_fgng22F3gVahHAByj2VgcA.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/ce264eb6-ede0-42d3-979a-478a3f634def)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender_5dvnH27hPj1Y6NFAzSp9KX.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/d7eb5afa-4f93-4552-80ef-50acaa881aad)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender_fGQvYbn7K4RQG3n224P79z.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/1d51f923-4b42-490c-b710-a56f4cce1c29)
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This is the first time I have seen this thread since I posted to it over two years ago. It is simply astounding. Thanks so much to all of you who have contributed
Given what has occurred over the last two years in Wisconsin, I have one question...probably directed toward Tom Doak. Tom...do you think that Peter Flory has any interest in doing another 18 hole computerized recreation...perhaps that you or someone else could use to recreate The Links. I know Peter was working with the Newport crowd to get info on the nine holer that Tommy Tailer created just west of Newport CC. Think he might have an interest in The Links?
Paul
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Richard,
I've loved reading your comments on this thread.
And for a while, I've been wanting to share with you a facsimile of one of the early cards with a few edits. Just had it pressed here in New Haven. Let me know if I can mail you a few copies.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CsCp13wti6C/
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Thank you Colin for your kind words. I sent you a PM with my mailing address.