Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Matt Bosela on December 17, 2013, 05:18:05 PM
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We have two great threads going right now that essentially are offering counter points to each other. There is one that asks about visiting great courses where you feel slightly deflated after playing and another thread that asks about your "pleasant surprises" during the year.
My question is this - do you ever feel BOTH WAYS after visiting a course? Because I think I feel that way about The Course at Yale - I was absolutely floored by the incredible architecture and off-the-charts scale but I walked off the 18th green thinking almost as much about the maintenance issues. I know it's a work in progress over there and that they've been working on cutting trees and improving conditions but it's amazing how little sunlight much of the turf is getting during the key morning hours. Yale is one of America's true treasures and I really hope they keep "peeling away the layers" to get the conditioning up to the same level as the architecture.
Knowing I'll get the stock response about the elation of playing Pebble followed by the deflated feeling of seeing your wallet after the end of the round, are there any other courses where you feel both ELATED and DEFLATED after playing and if so, why?
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Matt,
I think this has the potential to be a good thread.
I must say that I pretty much only play Yale during the shoulder seasons and find the conditioning to be pretty darn good.
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I had this experience after playing Carnoustie in 2003. The course was in absolutely perfect condition, I had great weather, it was like playing in a photo-shopped world. I played right off the backs and played well for a 76 with a 3, 3 finish including a chip in over the burn to a back pin position in front of 30 odd other people.
It should have been one of the most perfect experiences of my golfing life yet walking off the last green I could not help but feel the course had lost some of its rugged charm which it had in the mid 80's. Great experience but tinged with sadness of some greatness lost.
Jon
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Oh man, I feel this way after every game at Beau Desert. I see an awesome course buried in veg. A lot of places feel that way to me, but its the one's I know well which really cause me to sigh...what if? The two huge name courses which I think are near perfect designs that cause e/def lation are Merion and Ballybunion. Imagine if those courses were widened out? How is it that I can easily access one of the great designs in the world and yet have no desire to do so. Its criminal.
Ciao
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The easy answer for me here is Silloth during last year's BUDA. I really liked the course...it has much to like. Some wonderful holes on some very interesting ground for golf. Only problem *then* was the rough was much too penal, squeezing the fairways all around the golf course . And the club was very apologetic about it, which made me love the place even more. A very welcoming membership who genuinely wanted us to have a good time. They had endured a ton of rain throughout the season and as I understood their budget couldn't quite keep pace. There was so much heather in that rough too. Nasty stuff! I'd given anything to have been able to hit a straight ball over the four rounds I played there.
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I had this experience after playing Carnoustie in 2003. The course was in absolutely perfect condition, I had great weather, it was like playing in a photo-shopped world. I played right off the backs and played well for a 76 with a 3, 3 finish including a chip in over the burn to a back pin position in front of 30 odd other people.
It should have been one of the most perfect experiences of my golfing life yet walking off the last green I could not help but feel the course had lost some of its rugged charm which it had in the mid 80's. Great experience but tinged with sadness of some greatness lost.
Jon
This is an interesting take Jon and it's one I would associate with... I would have always upped the "rugged" charm of most links courses until I watched the dramatic improvement in conditioning and presentation in my own course over the past 5 or 6 years....
So I now believe that there are a handful of big courses (Carnoustie perhaps included?) where it probably serves them well to have tip-top presentation. I think it works best of all if the one aspect that isn't too calculated is the transitions between fairways and roughs but the rest can be very clean.
Most other links courses I like to be as rugged as the day they were born... Whilst firm remains the order of the day...
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the elation of playing Pebble followed by the deflated feeling of seeing your wallet after the end of the round,
They return your wallet to you after your round at Pebble? Who knew??
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The easy answer for me here is Silloth during last year's BUDA. I really liked the course...it has much to like. Some wonderful holes on some very interesting ground for golf. Only problem *then* was the rough was much too penal, squeezing the fairways all around the golf course . And the club was very apologetic about it, which made me love the place even more. A very welcoming membership who genuinely wanted us to have a good time. They had endured a ton of rain throughout the season and as I understood their budget couldn't quite keep pace. There was so much heather in that rough too. Nasty stuff! I'd given anything to have been able to hit a straight ball over the four rounds I played there.
Eric
I played several rounds with John Mayhugh at BUDA and as the "local" John would look to me for a sounding every time he hit one slightly astray. Invariably I would say "you'll be alright there" and then when we got there his ball would be in the gunch. That happened on about 4 or 5 occasions and eventually John would be looking at me as though I was taking the piss but genuinely I was thinking he would be OK, and so they would have been the 99% of other times I'd played there. The rough really was that unusual and nothing the greenkeepers or club could do. Sometimes you have to take what the weather gives you.
Hopefully you will make it back on a "normal" day. One of the beauty's of Silloth is that does offer recovery options. Yes you might have an unlevel stance, in fact you will almost certainly have an unlevel stance and you might also be hitting out of heather or sandy waste areas or rough (usually dry fescue) but generally you'll have a shot from just off the fairway. As I think it was Simpson said, the recovery shot is the best shot of all and Silloth (normally) offers that in spades.
Niall
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Some friends and I played a much admired top 10 UK Royal course last year. We'd played there before and were again elated at the course and the opportunity to play it. We were totally deflated however by the pace of play and the fact that so many 'golf clowns' were allowed to play the course. Players who, from the standard of their play and their lack of awareness of the etiquette of the game (including safety), were obviously very infrequent players, using rented clubs, with no proper golf footwear and dressed akin to Ronald McDonald (hence the 'golf clowns' reference).
I'm trying hard not to be a 'golf-snob' here, but six hour rounds waiting on every shot ain't my idea of golf-fun or even value for money. Other groups of members and visitors playing before and after us didn't seem very impressed with the situation either. Once-upon-a-time the general mantra at the top-end clubs/courses was "no recognised handicap certificate, no play". Tough love, but there was some merit to it IMO. Those days seem to have gone, maybe it's the economy, maybe it's changes in society.
I adore the course, the architecture, the location and the surrounding area. Nearby are several 'lesser' courses, all well spoken of herein and all of which I've also played before. I'd go back to any of them like a shot, but paying good £££ to play Mr Royal, well, I'd have to think long and hard about playing it again, unless in an Open Competition or very much out-of-season.
ATB
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The easy answer for me here is Silloth during last year's BUDA. I really liked the course...it has much to like. Some wonderful holes on some very interesting ground for golf. Only problem *then* was the rough was much too penal, squeezing the fairways all around the golf course . And the club was very apologetic about it, which made me love the place even more. A very welcoming membership who genuinely wanted us to have a good time. They had endured a ton of rain throughout the season and as I understood their budget couldn't quite keep pace. There was so much heather in that rough too. Nasty stuff! I'd given anything to have been able to hit a straight ball over the four rounds I played there.
And, I thought it was the cider that made you feel a little deflated! ;)
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I get a similar feeling playing George Wright up in Boston. It's a fantastic Ross course that has some maintenance issues....but man is it a fun golf course!!
Mark
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Pebble Beach is the prototype.
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The one standout course for me, that elates and then totally deflates, is Cruden Bay. After the first 7 or 8 holes you're thinking this is marvellous, then you play some nice holes that are bit more mundane, and then 4 on the trot that are blind or semi-blind. The only course I've walked off angry at the course.
Niall
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I had this experience after playing Carnoustie in 2003. The course was in absolutely perfect condition, I had great weather, it was like playing in a photo-shopped world. I played right off the backs and played well for a 76 with a 3, 3 finish including a chip in over the burn to a back pin position in front of 30 odd other people.
It should have been one of the most perfect experiences of my golfing life yet walking off the last green I could not help but feel the course had lost some of its rugged charm which it had in the mid 80's. Great experience but tinged with sadness of some greatness lost.
Jon
This is an interesting take Jon and it's one I would associate with... I would have always upped the "rugged" charm of most links courses until I watched the dramatic improvement in conditioning and presentation in my own course over the past 5 or 6 years....
So I now believe that there are a handful of big courses (Carnoustie perhaps included?) where it probably serves them well to have tip-top presentation. I think it works best of all if the one aspect that isn't too calculated is the transitions between fairways and roughs but the rest can be very clean.
Most other links courses I like to be as rugged as the day they were born... Whilst firm remains the order of the day...
Ally,
I think it is possible to get top playing conditions but still have it a little frayed at the edges. I tink part of it was that the rough was so severe with no chance of getting a lucky break.
Jon
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Before I joined this site I didn't know a golfer in the world who wouldn't have been deflated by the four par threes on the back nine at Pacific Dunes. Why hasn't anyone mentioned Spyglass? I've never played there simply because I don't want to play a course with the best most beautiful holes front loaded.
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A few:
Tumble Creek - after negotiating some interesting terrain, the course loses a little steam after the stellar 11th and the finishing holes in the valley fall a little flat.
Sharks Tooth - really pumped up after the first fives holes, then an absolute train wreck at the 6th.
Wexford Plantation - excellent renovation and extremely fun to play, until one steps back into the 1970's on the 18th tee.
Pacific Dunes - the 18th hole just leaves me winded and wounded.
Bogey
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The easy answer for me here is Silloth during last year's BUDA. I really liked the course...it has much to like. Some wonderful holes on some very interesting ground for golf. Only problem *then* was the rough was much too penal, squeezing the fairways all around the golf course . And the club was very apologetic about it, which made me love the place even more. A very welcoming membership who genuinely wanted us to have a good time. They had endured a ton of rain throughout the season and as I understood their budget couldn't quite keep pace. There was so much heather in that rough too. Nasty stuff! I'd given anything to have been able to hit a straight ball over the four rounds I played there.
Eric
I played several rounds with John Mayhugh at BUDA and as the "local" John would look to me for a sounding every time he hit one slightly astray. Invariably I would say "you'll be alright there" and then when we got there his ball would be in the gunch. That happened on about 4 or 5 occasions and eventually John would be looking at me as though I was taking the piss but genuinely I was thinking he would be OK, and so they would have been the 99% of other times I'd played there. The rough really was that unusual and nothing the greenkeepers or club could do. Sometimes you have to take what the weather gives you.
Hopefully you will make it back on a "normal" day. One of the beauty's of Silloth is that does offer recovery options. Yes you might have an unlevel stance, in fact you will almost certainly have an unlevel stance and you might also be hitting out of heather or sandy waste areas or rough (usually dry fescue) but generally you'll have a shot from just off the fairway. As I think it was Simpson said, the recovery shot is the best shot of all and Silloth (normally) offers that in spades.
Niall
Niall,
I can imagine the grin on both your faces upon discovery that the egg's found the hay - again. ;D
As far as my returning to Silloth - one can only dream. Really enjoyed the short time we spent there. Cider and all, Mike Whitaker!!
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Niall,
Cruden Bay is a great shout. World class holes from 3-8, a bit of a blip, a few more good holes then a seriously weak finish, including one of the worst par 3s I have played.
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Someone mentioned Pebble is jest, but I actually think the course is a bit of a roller coaster. You get a big crescendo on 6-10 and then some of those back nine holes hit you as a slog, especially with the pace of play out there. I love Pebble but it's hard not to feel a little deflated on 12-15 before the elation returns at the finish.
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Why hasn't anyone mentioned Spyglass? I've never played there simply because I don't want to play a course with the best most beautiful holes front loaded.
I think my experience at Spyglass could qualify. I walked (and pushed my clubs) on an afternoon after doing the same thing at Spanish Bay the same morning. A great test of golf in wonderful surroundings, but I was spent on the back nine. I don't think I've ever hit more 4-irons to elevated greens. (At least it felt that way.) I'd like another shot at Spyglass for that reason.
I think you're right, John. You can't help feel a little down when you are leaving the oceanfront holes. Tough problems to have on the Peninsula. ;D
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My first round at Ballyneal was like that. The golf course was spectacular, but this was in the early stages and the greens were very slow. I played with one of the owners at that time who said they weren't going to cut them much lower due to the contours, which left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm glad I live close by or I likely would have never given any more thought to the place. I don't think it could get any better than it is now.
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Bandon Trails for me. This first 5 holes are world class then its a let down for a few holes. The course is again brilliant until you get to the 14th which is a huge letdown. The 15th is brilliant and the 16th a letdown. The 17th is a beautiful par 3 and then the 18th a bit of a let down although I haven't played it since it was remodeled.
I told Crenshaw it was a roller coaster of emotions.
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Lido. Oł sont les neiges d'antan...
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I had this experience after playing Carnoustie in 2003. The course was in absolutely perfect condition, I had great weather, it was like playing in a photo-shopped world. I played right off the backs and played well for a 76 with a 3, 3 finish including a chip in over the burn to a back pin position in front of 30 odd other people.
I'm curious, what did you score on 16 in that round? The first time I played there in 1991 I aced 16 and parred 17 and 18, and my caddie told me he'd been caddying there for nearly 50 years and had never heard of anyone finishing the last three holes two under par. You may have equaled my feat without the luck factor of a knocking it in from 235 in a 25 mph crosswind :)
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Doug,
not up to your standard I am afraid. I 3 putted 16 for a 4 which was my only 3 putt of the round. Birdie putt on 17 was a 10 footer and then the chip in on 18. I played great that day except for the lapse at 16 and a triple at 2 hacking around in the gunge.
Jon
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Ocean course. Front 9 really isn't that difficult and I tend to score well and have a fast start. Problems for me increase on holes 11-13 although 11 isn't that hard or long. That long stretch of holes almost always into the wind from 5-13 grinds me down and usually I've given most of the round away. When the course turns back with the wind to finish I'm usually riding higher with good birdie chances at 15, 16 and 2 excellent finishing holes and a great bar right after that.
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Bandon Dunes.
I thought bandon Dunes was awesome from the 2nd hole on and I was so excited to be playing it.
15 and 16 are INCREDIBLE, 17 is good, but 18 is was a let down to me...not that difficult par 5.
still love the course as a whole though.
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Joel...
I'm almost lock step with you regarding Bandon Trails.
Tobacco Road elates and deflates me. Some of the most epic holes of all time are on the course and some really weird ones too.
Black Diamond Ranch Quarry course.
Fishers Island...perhaps the most ecstatically good run of holes I've ever played, 3-5 (or 6 or 7)...and then some eh holes...then some WOW holes...and some eh.
Royal New Kent...again, like Tobacco Road, some crazy good holes...and moments of WTF?!?
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I agree Mac about Black Diamond Quarry..13-17 are incredible...18 boring and bad way to finish
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Cruden Bay is a great shout. World class holes from 3-8, a bit of a blip, a few more good holes then a seriously weak finish, including one of the worst par 3s I have played.
Suggest folk who feel like this, and I can certainly see where they're coming from, play holes 1-7 on the Championship course followed by the short walk to holes 17 & 18. Then make the equally short walk to the 1st tee of the St Olaf course and play that courses 9-holes. I always thought this was the best of CB, even though I quite like holes 11, 12, 13, 15 (yes 15) and 16 on the Championship course.
ATB
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Cruden Bay is a great shout. World class holes from 3-8, a bit of a blip, a few more good holes then a seriously weak finish, including one of the worst par 3s I have played.
Suggest folk who feel like this, and I can certainly see where they're coming from, play holes 1-7 on the Championship course followed by the short walk to holes 17 & 18. Then make the equally short walk to the 1st tee of the St Olaf course and play that courses 9-holes. I always thought this was the best of CB, even though I quite like holes 11, 12, 13, 15 (yes 15) and 16 on the Championship course.
ATB
I rather like Cruden Bay's finish. 16 is a very good and tough par 3. 17 is a excellent par 4. 18 requires a very good drive to leave a relatively easy approach. Cruden Bay is one of the relatively small number of well known courses where my opinion went up after a revisit.
Ciao
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Sean
I only played it the once but did go back at a later date to have a look at Frank's par 3. I don't disagree that second time round would be much better with a bit of prior knowledge.
Niall