Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David_Tepper on December 13, 2013, 06:15:13 PM
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I played the Presidio this past Sunday for the first time in over a year. The course is in the gradual process of having their bunkers re-done. The design work is being done by Suny, Zokol amd the shaping work is being handled by the super at the Presidio. Less than half the holes have gotten their face-lift so far. I thought the new look was pretty good.
Here are some comments from Armen Suny:
http://aggca.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-presidio-golf-course-renovation.html
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The 4th looks much better. How was the green? They have had some trouble maintaining good turf on 4 because of all the shade.
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Andy S. -
Yes, that green has always struggled because it sits in a hollow surrounded by some tall trees and does not get enough sunlight. It also takes a beating from absorbing so many wedge shots hit from a well-elevated tee. That is one green that could benefit from having a fan alongside it. ;)
We have had some very cold weather (for San Francisco!) lately and there have been multiple frost delays over the past 7-10 days. Given all that, I thought the green was in decent shape. I am playing the course this Sunday and will take a closer look.
DT
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The bunkering in that picture looks absolutely terrible. Talk about forcing a feature into a landscape. Not to mention the fact that it looks like a maintenance nightmare! I hope all the new bunkering doesn't end up looking that bad...
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"Not to mention the fact that it looks like a maintenance nightmare!"
Greg C -
You are welcome to your opinion regarding the look of the bunkers. However, given that the fellow who is the head greenskeeper is also the guy who shaped the bunkers, I am guessing he is comfortable maintaining the bunkers will not be a "nightmare" for him and his staff.
DT
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Concept picture looks really good.
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The proposed 4th is how I remember that hole. Except there were bunkers on the left too. Basically, if you weren't on the dance floor you were in the sand.
How many recognize the hole on Zokol's website as the 13th at Sagebrush?
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David, it's one thing to build something bold and complex, it's another thing entirely to maintain for years to come. Presidio is a very busy public course, is it not?
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Before (bunkers are unattractive and devoid of strategic interest)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2843/11362184776_c8aa77f82b.jpg)
After (sort of a MacKenzie mockup?)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/11362144155_4d74ed4435.jpg)
My rendering of a slightly less extravagant renovation. I'd shave the bank on the right so players could feed shots on between the bunkers.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7299/11362188986_9646293688.jpg)
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Kyle
Nice bit of photo shopping. I much prefer your version although not sure how much feeding into the green would go on considering the length of hole, the fact that it plays downhill and the green looks as though it slopes down the way from back to front.Your version also has the great benefit of offering ease of access to the putting surface. Lastly, prefer the slightly less fussy look of your back right bunker compared to the Sony Zukol version.
Niall
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Bill M. -
For an number of years (the early 1990's if I recall correctly), that green, which was much smaller at the time, was surrounded by one circular "donut" bunker. It was a lame attempt to create a "signature hole."
Greg C. -
Yes the Presidio is a public course and it does get a lot of play. However, as I stated above, the current head greenskeeper was very involved with the design/creation of these bunkers. It is hard to imagine any head greenskeeper would encourage building a bunker that would cause maintenance problems for his crew.
DT
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Kyle
Nice bit of photo shopping. I much prefer your version although not sure how much feeding into the green would go on considering the length of hole, the fact that it plays downhill and the green looks as though it slopes down the way from back to front.Your version also has the great benefit of offering ease of access to the putting surface. Lastly, prefer the slightly less fussy look of your back right bunker compared to the Sony Zukol version.
Niall
Thanks, Niall. I agree the ground game isn't really at play with a wedge but I'd hate to see players hacking out of cabbage from that slope or slipping in muddy rough when a firm, shaved bank could be afforded.
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David,
It wouldn't be the first time that somebody built something they wish they wouldn't have...time will tell...
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Kyle
Nice bit of photo shopping. I much prefer your version although not sure how much feeding into the green would go on considering the length of hole, the fact that it plays downhill and the green looks as though it slopes down the way from back to front.Your version also has the great benefit of offering ease of access to the putting surface. Lastly, prefer the slightly less fussy look of your back right bunker compared to the Sony Zukol version.
Niall
Thanks, Niall. I agree the ground game isn't really at play with a wedge but I'd hate to see players hacking out of cabbage from that slope or slipping in muddy rough when a firm, shaved bank could be afforded.
Kyle
I was thinking further on why I prefer your version and I think the reason is the suggestion of the diagonal in your design. That might be more perception than reality but straight away it makes the golfer think about matching line with length.
Niall
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Looks like a nice course David. Did you enjoy the game on Sunday? Unseasonably warm up here where I played at Tain in 14C (57F) despite the stiff breeze.
Jon
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Any recent takes on Presidio?
There's another thread that's older than this with one newer post, but this one felt more appropriate to bump. I'm planning to be in the Bay Area mid-June and have wanted to play Presidio since it opened to the public (although I know the opinions about it here vary pretty wildly).
Thanks!
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Any recent takes on Presidio?
There's another thread that's older than this with one newer post, but this one felt more appropriate to bump. I'm planning to be in the Bay Area mid-June and have wanted to play Presidio since it opened to the public (although I know the opinions about it here vary pretty wildly).
Thanks!
I’m actually here right now, just got done hitting a bucket of balls. It’s pretty good and Probably similar condition to Harding (which is to say they’re both fine, not spectacular). Other than the potential weather, no reason not to play Presidio. Pack your warmest stuff just in case.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52930504684_61692b4ac0_h.jpg)
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Presidio is enjoyable to play. Nothing great/nothing bad. I'd choose it over TPC Harding 10-1.
Fun to think about its prior history as an army course/private club as you play it.
If in the City, play the nine hole Gleneagles also. Take an uber to the course so you can enjoy the 10th hole (aka 19th hole) which is very cool.
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As someone who will hopefully visit San Francisco this fall, do most locals prefer Presidio over Harding and if so, is it architecture, maintenance, playability or is it cost? Thanks!
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I've mapped and annotated every public course in SF on the wiki... the link should be below in my signature.
My thoughts are Presidio is fun if you like uphill par 4s (8/10 play uphill). Do not play there after it rains as it tends to be the soggiest course in the city. The finishing hole at Presidio, I think, is the most beautiful finishing hole I've played in the area.
TPC Harding Park is a crucible. It is a course for people looking to test themselves. A word of caution, that tuesday/thursday they play the back 9 first and you will not feel the struggle of playing the long 18th when you're most exhausted.
Kevin is right that Gleneagles is an underrated architectural gem (full disclosure, I'm a member there), but if you care at all about high-end maintenance, it won't be for you. The greens are fine, but the club generally plays preferred lies because it can often be a crap shoot with the turf.
I'm more of a links guy, and I can't repeat enough how much I like the unfinished Corica: North Course just outside of town. To me it's the best course in the Bay Area, and a must for anyone who likes links golf, if you can play it on a windy day.
Just my thoughts.
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Matt,
That's an interesting claim depending on what you consider is "regional" to San Francisco.
Off the top of my head I'd say the 18th at Harding Park or HMB, and I'd throw in Lake Chabot too. And this doesn't even include what is found in the Monterey Peninsula area....
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Matt,
That's an interesting claim depending on what you consider is "regional" to San Francisco.
Off the top of my head I'd say the 18th at Harding Park or HMB, and I'd throw in Lake Chabot too. And this doesn't even include what is found in the Monterey Peninsula area....
I think the view of the parking lot sort of ruins the beauty of the 18th at Harding for me. This might be partly due to the fact that the parking lot is also entirely in play for me when my driver isn't behaving itself.
The 18th at Lake Chabot could have a novel written about it. It's completely insane, and I love it. The entire course is worth playing just because of how totally bizarre of a counter-intuitive take on 'what golf should be' that it has. Completely irreverent while also being genuinely fun.
That said, I think Presidio's 18th, with its intentionally rowed treeline, framing the Congregation Emanu-El dome, and view of the Mt Sutro and Sutro tower in the background are just perfect for me.
Ironically, I'd actually argue that the second most beautiful finisher in SF is Lincoln, but few players have the wherewithal to look left and take in the full view of the city, because the course generally draws your attention to the right side while playing.
Full disclosure, I haven't played Half Moon Bay on account that it's a bit outside of my comfortable price range.
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TPC Harding Park is a crucible. It is a course for people looking to test themselves. A word of caution, that tuesday/thursday they play the back 9 first and you will not feel the struggle of playing the long 18th when you're most exhausted.
I don't see this at all. From the blues at 6,845 yards, Harding is rated 72.9/126. From the whites at 6,405 it's rated 70.5/121. It's pretty flat overall, and the greens are modestly sloped and typically not quick. Obviously it's harder if you get a cold and windy day, but otherwise I wouldn't think of it as either especially hard or exhausting. Presidio is more exacting and a much hillier walk; it's just way shorter from the tips.
There's not a consensus favorite amongst locals. Presidio has a good amount of quirk that sometimes pays off and sometimes doesn't. Harding is a more typical tournament course, with room off most tees and a lot of good-but-not great holes.
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Well played Matt,
As a Bay Area native (who hasn't lived there in nearly 20 years now) I miss the geographical diversity found there in its various forms. Its been ages since I've played the two courses in Alameda but sounds like I need to get a round at the South course on my next visit.
P.S. I cut my golfing teeth primarily on Tony Lema in San Leandro. Its nothing to write home about as you know, but has some amazing views out there. And certainly agreed on Lake Chabot, even if it should also be avoided during the soggy winter months..
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I don't see this at all. From the blues at 6,845 yards, Harding is rated 72.9/126. From the whites at 6,405 it's rated 70.5/121.
That's fair. The main difference for me, as a higher handicapper, is that at Presidio I'm playing hybrid from the rough, whereas at Harding I'm playing an 8 iron at best. So for me, Harding plays quite a bit longer than it says on the card. Presidio does top the public courses on official slope.
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Good insight, fellows...thanks.
Is Lake Chabot walkable?
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Is Lake Chabot walkable?
If you have to ask, it's probably not. I play with a push cart there, but i'm in my early 40s and it can still be quite tiring sometimes. It also depends on the season, as the summer months can be very hot out there, whereas in SF proper, it'll always be cool enough for pants on the course.
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Good insight, fellows...thanks.
Is Lake Chabot walkable?
Mike,
Its a very tough walk but its doable. I used to walk it, but I was in my 20s, couldn't do it now.
P.S. If you don't have a tee time, make sure to drive in very slowly, you literally drive straight thru 3 or 4 fairways on the way in. ;)
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Thanks! Would love to hear others 10 round split (using whatever factors are most important to them) between Presidio and Harding and then perhaps throw Lake Chabot into the mix, although the idea of playing all three may be stretching my stay beyond what's good for my domestic life. ;)
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Thanks! Would love to hear others 10 round split (using whatever factors are most important to them) between Presidio and Harding and then perhaps throw Lake Chabot into the mix, although the idea of playing all three may be stretching my stay beyond what's good for my domestic life. ;)
With only one play on the the first two listed, in 2022, I would put Presido well ahead of HP, like 8-2. But then I like quirk and rolling and fun. And for the price difference it goes 9-1 easy for me.
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[quote author=Matt MacIver link=topic=57430.msg1730283#msg1730283 date=1685234947
With only one play on the the first two listed, in 2022, I would put Presido well ahead of HP, like 8-2. But then I like quirk and rolling and fun. And for the price difference it goes 9-1 easy for me.
Quirk, rolling, and fun.
You're talking my language, Matt...thanks!
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Is Lake Chabot walkable?
If you have to ask, it's probably not. I play with a push cart there, but i'm in my early 40s and it can still be quite tiring sometimes. It also depends on the season, as the summer months can be very hot out there, whereas in SF proper, it'll always be cool enough for pants on the course.
Lake Chabot never gets that hot. It is in the Oakland Hills...not out where it gets warm. Claremont CC doesn't allow shorts, and it is a similar climate as Chabot.
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If you have never played Lake Chabot you should because of all the memorable holes and uniqueness. The bag tag used to have a mountain goat on it, so unless your in great shape you will need a cart but it's worth it. 9th hole is a 100ft + drop shot par 3. Great elevated tee shots. From one of the holes on the back you can see the whole bay and both bridges on a clear day. 18th is/was a 662 yd par 6 all down hill and can be reached in 2 when the fairways are firm. Plaque on the hole tells of long driving champion who used a real water hose as a driver shaft back in the day. ;D
Always loved Presidio but it was the softest course in SF and the slowest round on the weekend at least.
Really enjoy Harding since the redo and even as a 15 hcp the last time I played there it wasn't that difficult and playing through the forest of giant trees is special.
I would split the 3, LC 4, HP 3, Pr 2 and Lincoln Park 1, just for the 17th hole view. 8)
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Greetings from the bonnie Highlands of Scotland. I am here for a few weeks playing a lot of (bad) golf. As you might imagine, I was a little surprised when I woke up this morning to see that this thread from 10 years ago has come back to life. I am also a little surprised to see the number of recent comments (especially to see how people prefer Presidio to Harding :) ).
I was a member of the Presidio GC from 1983 to 1999. I must have played the course 500 or more times back then. I live a dozen or so blocks away and still go there once or twice a week to chip/putt or use the range. I have probably lived within a mile radius of the course for the past 40+ years.
Here is some background info that might be of interest:
1) The 1956 Western Open was played at the Presidio. There was a 4-way tie for first at 4-under. Mike Fetchik beat Doug Ford, Jay Hebert and Don January (who recently passed away at 94 years) in the playoff.
2) The group that went on to become the San Francisco Golf Club first started playing golf at the Presidio and helped build the course there at the very end of the 19th century.
3) The old USGA Golf Journal magazine did a nice article about the course not too long before is ceased publishing in hard copy. (Maybe someone can find a link to the article on the USGA website?)
4) Re: Matt S.' comments regarding the impressive view down the 18th fairway (which I agree with), be aware that the nines were reversed when the course became public (circa 1999) and the new public clubhouse was built adjacent to the green on that hole. The whole time I played there as a PGC member, that was the 9th hole.
5) Also be aware that what are now the 10th & 18th holes were reversed around 1970. The greens are now where the tees were and the tees are now where the greens used to be.
Harding Park is one of those "it's all there in front of you" courses. Presidio is pretty much the opposite, with a fair number of blind shots and plenty of sidehill/uphill/downhill lies.
Anyone coming to SF is welcome to message me about getting together for a game.
P.S. Though it has not been mentioned so far, I think the Metropolitan GL (by the Oakland Airport) is a very good course. The routing rarely has you playing more than 2 holes in a row in the same direction.
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Thank you David, (all 3) Matts, Kevin, Tim, and others who have replied. I'll want to play as early in the day as possible. Will it likely be foggy first thing in the morning? (As in, does it detract from the experience if played in those conditions?)
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Mark K. -
The fog should not be an issue in mid-June. But given how weird the weather patterns have been in the Bay Area over the past 6-12 months, anything is possible.
Some might argue that playing the Presidio in the fog actually enhances the experience. ;)
DT
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David Tepper,
That history is certainly compelling as is the course description!
Any idea who was involved in the reversing of 10 and 18 circa 1970?
Thanks!
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MCirba -
I have a copy of the Presidio GC 100-year book at home in San Francisco. That might have the answer to your question.
Another change to the course around 1970 or so was converting two par-4's into a par-3 (the current #7) and a par-5 (the current #9).
I think there is a paragraph or two about the design history of the course in the Cornish/Whitten book. I think Desmond Muirhead may have worked on the course around then.
DT
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Since David brought up Metro (which I think is a fantastic course), I thought I'd talk about the 10th hole there, which I think has fantastic architecture. A quick mock up shows the three lines players can take depending on the distance they have off the tee (standard Men's tee is used)
(https://i.imgur.com/WYW32IM.png)
The key here is that the blue line, that plays to the green in two shots, over the widest part of the large water hazard, hits an extremely steep section of the green, which makes it extremely difficult to control, and can roll the ball back off into a terrible area. The more risk one is willing to take to get a wedge at the green, the more reward, and the safest way on is the longest.
I really think it's one of those unique holes, that plays to every level of strength, allow significant strategy and risk taking suited to each level of player. Add in the prevailing headwind, bringing distances into doubt, and players trying to reach the green in two might find themselves with a much more challenging approached than if they'd played to the right side. It's a pretty standout hole.
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2) The group that went on to become the San Francisco Golf Club first started playing golf at the Presidio and helped build the course there at the very end of the 19th century.
DT, I have a copy of the SFGC history, and I remember thinking that the location of the club's original course was a different spot than the current Presidio. I will dig the history out in a few days (I am out of town) and see what it says.
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The current 1st hole is another one that has been changed. The tee and green have not been moved, but the hole used to be played out to the right and curving left thru what is now the driving range. What is now the 1st fairway used to be a semi-wetland area until it was drained and filled in.
I am not sure when the change was made and the current range was created, but it was after 1956. An old-timer once told me a temporary range was set up for the 1956 Western Open elsewhere within the Presidio.
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The current 1st hole is another one that has been changed. The tee and green have not been moved, but the hole used to be played out to the right and curving left thru what is now the driving range. What is now the 1st fairway used to be a semi-wetland area until it was drained and filled in.
I am not sure when the change was made and the current range was created, but it was after 1956. An old-timer once told me a temporary range was set up for the 1956 Western Open elsewhere within the Presidio.
Here is some aerial photography from 1947:
(https://i.imgur.com/yO2seM1.png)
file source:
Filename: gs-cp_1-24.tif
Site: https://mil.library.ucsb.edu/ap_images/gs-cp/
Aerial photography finder tool: https://mil.library.ucsb.edu/ap_indexes/FrameFinder/
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We also have an aerial here from Sept 8, 1956, but I see no signs of the temporary range. The tournament would have been in July, so I feel like there should be evidence of it. In the larger photo, it looks like it's possible that the range could have been located over by Lobos Creek at the El Camino Del Mar parking lot, but I can't be sure, the photos aren't clear enough:
(https://i.imgur.com/QAuc83U.png)
Here is the small section that could have been the range:
(https://i.imgur.com/xv7FylH.png)
Location: https://mil.library.ucsb.edu/ap_images/gs-vlx/
Filename: gs-vlx_1-126.tif
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I LOVE golf course archeology threads...thanks, guys!
Looking forward to seeing what else can be uncovered
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Matt S. -
Those two photos clearly show how the current #10 and #18 used to be before they were reversed. I think one of the reasons they were reversed is too many people were slicing their tee shots into the woods off the tee of what used to be the first hole (the hole furthest to the right in those photos).
If I remember correctly what I was told about the temporary range for the 1956 Western Open, it was east of the golf course down where the Julius Kahn playground, ball field and tennis courts are now located.
DT
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If I remember correctly what I was told about the temporary range for the 1956 Western Open, it was east of the golf course down where the Julius Kahn playground, ball field and tennis courts are now located.
Yes, you can clearly see multiple greens on the north side of the field. It looks like that section is now Morton Field, with an open area to the south where Paul Goode field is now (which was previously trees).
(https://imgur.com/NBdDOI8.png)
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I think one of the reasons they were reversed is too many people were slicing their tee shots into the woods off the tee
I think this is a really good reason for the change. The prevailing (near due east) winds can make that shot almost impossible to control given the angle of attack (45º left-to-right headwind). Add in any slice bias (which is incredibly common), and you are creating a pretty miserable experience for most golfers on the first hole.
That said, the current first hole is a good firm handshake, and I honestly wish it wasn't the first hole. It's one of two downhill par 4s, and it's easily my favorite par 4 on the course (likely due to the fact that it's a redesign). I honestly wish it came later in the round... but that's an entirely different aesthetic question.
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I was a member of the Presidio GC from 1983 to 1999. I must have played the course 500 or more times back then. I live a dozen or so blocks away and still go there once or twice a week to chip/putt or use the range. I have probably lived within a mile radius of the course for the past 40+ years.
David Tepper - When I lived in San Francisco in the 90s I took lessons from the Head Pro at the Presidio.. If memory serves correctly his name was Jack Baker.
He was also coaching Dorothy Delasin at that time - who won the US Women's Amateur in 1999 before turning pro. It was certainly a humbling experience to realize no matter how well I played during our playing lessons I was getting comprehensively beaten by a smiling, polite 15-year old schoolgirl.
Jack did take me to Cypress Point Club one afternoon, which I guess made up for it... :)
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Anthony B. -
Sounds like you were in San Francisco in the late 1990's.
Yes, I do remember Jack Baker and I certainly do remember Dorothy Delasin, possibly the best golfer to come out of San Francisco since Johnny Miller.
Jack Baker left SF in 2000 to go work at Princeville in Hawaii. He left the golf business there after 3-4 years and became a successful real estate broker on Kauai.
https://www.residekauai.com/jack/ (https://www.residekauai.com/jack/)
DT
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My regular group used to see Dorothy and her sister putting on the practice green at Sharp Park, supervised by their father, who would yell at them when they missed.
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Funny, that is the second mention of Delasin that I have seen in the last week. This previous mention wasn't favorable:
https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1938042-lpga-pro-am/?do=findComment&comment=24814005 (https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1938042-lpga-pro-am/?do=findComment&comment=24814005)
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At the risk of taking this thread further off topic, I feel obliged to respond to Roody's WRX post linked above.
I have never met Dorothy Delasin. I have absolutely no idea what she was or is like as a person. As I golfer, I do know she won the USGA Junior Girls and the Women's Amateur. I know she won 4 times on the LPGA tour. I know she won the Women's World Cup of Golf with Jennifer Rosales representing the Philippines in 2008. That is a very impressive golfing resume.
Maybe she is shy. Maybe she is moody at times. Regardless, I find Roody's comments, that denigrate Ms. Delasin both as a golfer and a person, to be uncalled for. The fact that they were made 20 years after the fact is shameful.
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Agree with you David. It's probably too much of a stereotype, but from what I've observed and read, some of the Asian women golfers had a tough row to hoe, given what appears to be the pressure put on them by their parents. Se Ri Pak, Wie, Dorothy D. and there are other examples. I would cut them some slack.
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Presidio is enjoyable to play. Nothing great/nothing bad. I'd choose it over TPC Harding 10-1.
Fun to think about its prior history as an army course/private club as you play it.
If in the City, play the nine hole Gleneagles also. Take an uber to the course so you can enjoy the 10th hole (aka 19th hole) which is very cool.
Ibid.
Do NOT pass over the chance to play Gleneagles. It is an amazing and difficult 9 holer. Everything breaks toward the airport.
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Wanted to report back after my round at Presidio one week ago today. I had the second tee time of the day (6:30) and caught an absolutely gorgeous morning for my round. Making matters even better, I loved the course and it exceeded my expectations. Then to round out a fantastic morning, David Tepper graciously came over to the course to meet me beside the 18th green and share some local history and knowledge with me. Thank you so much to David and everyone who contributed to this thread.
My take on Presidio is it has just about everything I want in a golf course, except it isn't bouncy. It has tons of elevation changes, interesting greens, a good variety of par 3 lengths, strong bunkering, some cool city views, an unusual feature or two (the patch of tall grass in front of 5 green was interesting to me), and pure beauty everywhere you look. While I don't typically pay $117 to play golf, the visitor rates are not too bad and the San Francisco resident rate is a steal for the quality of course, imo.
When I got to the 17th tee and saw what seemed like the most shoehorned hole so far in the routing, I thought possibly the last two holes would be a letdown. But then to find out the 17th hole actually moves right a bit was a relief and I really enjoyed that hole. The finisher also provides a similarly one-dimensional look from the tee, but has sufficient width to not feel too severe.
Maybe I'm naive because I haven't played the number of super high quality courses many here have, but I assume Presidio would be much more well known if its neighboring clubs weren't among some of the most well-regarded courses in the world. It very much had a "private club" vibe to it that I really enjoyed.
Here's my photo album:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24952137@N00/albums/72177720309368148
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Mark,
Thanks for sharing your pics.
To these east coast eyes they seem to show more character in one photo than I've ever seen on television or pics at Harding Park.
Am I wrong, west coasters?
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Fun pics Mark! And David is definitely your guy if you want to know more about the course and its history.
I played it a few times when I lived in the Bay Area, even pre-restoration it was fun though it looks better now. And it's definitely a city experience, too bad you didn't get some of the fog! And there are views of the local neighborhoods from some of the holes, which will remind you that you're playing golf right in the middle of San Francisco.
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To these east coast eyes they seem to show more character in one photo than I've ever seen on television or pics at Harding Park.
I just played both of these courses in like a three-day window a couple of weeks ago and I couldn't agree more with this assessment. I thought the property at Presidio was far more engaging (way more elevation change and ground contour), I thought there was far more variety in the holes (like half the holes at Harding Park feel exactly the same to me) and I thought the green complexes (and hole locations) were dramatically more interesting at Presidio.
I also loved the relatively new bunkering at Presidio...it looked beautiful with the shaggy edges and the odd shaped fingers that carve into each of these hazards. TPC Harding Park still feels like it has municipal course bunkering with very little shape/character.
If they ever did a Bethpage at Presidio whereby a large organization like the USGA or the PGA helped fund another major renovation of the golf course, they could really do a number out there and make the course the crown jewel of San Francisco public golf. I came away from playing it a raving fan of the place.
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Thanks for your insight, Sam. I'm hoping to visit in October and part of me wants to see Harding Park as it was one of the first "restored/renovated" munis in recent years and being involved in the project at Cobb's Creek back here in Philly I'd love to see first hand what they did right as well as what could have been improved.
However, Presidio looks so compelling by contrast that I may have to skip Harding this trip.
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I've been playing these two courses off-n-on for the past 25 years, and both are much better than they used to be... that's for sure. Having just recently play both, I'd much rather give my $115 or so to Presidio.
Conditioning aside, Harding is definitely a good course and is worthy of hosting tournaments like he PGA Championship, etc. In fact, it looks like they haven't mown the fairway widths since it was there in 2020, and that definitely makes it more challenging and less playable for the retail golfer.
As mentioned in previous posts, Presidio is way more quirky with interesting green complexes, bunkering, and elevation changes throughout. And a summer afternoon brings out the full SF experience with the fog filling in amongst the trees, giving it an even better "sense of place" than Harding.
Both are worth playing and [size=78%]a 10 round split would be 7-3 for Presidio.[/size]