Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Edward Moody on November 22, 2013, 11:08:46 AM
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Just got back to Austin last night from a 2 day trip to the West Palm area. Had a few client visits, a trip to the ER for a severe ear infection, and had my first visit to Seminole. To respect their privacy, and because I was playing with Bob Ford, I left my phone in the car so no pics. The club and set up are way cool and the golf course is extremely good. The only downside was I was in so much pain that it was hard for me to take it all in. I could hardly bend over to tee my ball up and just setting up over a shot sent pain and ringing through my ear. Came this close to calling quits after 9 but knew I would have to tough it out. I mean we are talking Seminole!
Played in the skins game and there were 10 groups - a lot more of a crowd than I would have expected. All of the members were very gracious and the staff was super accomodating. And, of course, nothing beats hanging out in the locker room after the round. Just a really good vibe around that place.
There was little wind to contend with. But the 186 bunkers were always in play. Some of the green complex looks from the fairway were really something. 14 is one I particularly remember.
Anyway, it was one hell of an experience.
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Who is Bob Ford?
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Who is Bob Ford?
http://www.pga.com/professionals/bob-ford-pga
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Who is Bob Ford?
http://www.pga.com/professionals/bob-ford-pga
I thought it was this guy:
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/bob_ford/
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Who is Bob Ford?
http://www.pga.com/professionals/bob-ford-pga
I thought it was this guy:
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/bob_ford/
Both of them have spent a lot of time in Pennsylvania ... or, as Matt Ward would have put it, in the Keystone State, pardner!
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Bob is also the Head Pro at Oakmont.
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That's right. Summers at oakmont and winters at seminole. Bob is a pro's pro. Great man.
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Edward,
Care to elaborate further about the golf course? Here's the 14th from the fw
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/FLA%20MUNI/c4fb184c-3cbd-45f4-979f-de2e2e87cc13_zps7e8e3112.jpg) (http://s618.photobucket.com/user/dfjb23/media/FLA%20MUNI/c4fb184c-3cbd-45f4-979f-de2e2e87cc13_zps7e8e3112.jpg.html)
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Edward,
The only question about Bob Ford is which is better: his gig (including the pro shop at Oakmont) or his golf swing?
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Tim - funny you mentioned his swing. After he hit another solid drive on 14 I commented to the group "Bobby, I could sip on iced tea and watch you swing all day long".
Jonathan - I'm still on pain meds so will have to think hard here...love the use of the sand dunes in the property. Neat how both nines take you up and along the dunes and then you play back away from them. We played the one up tees and with relatively no wind the course was not playing long. I hit a number of 5 woods off the tees and when I did hit driver I had short irons and wedges into greens. Having those short irons didn't help much b/c of all the bunkers, though. Its pretty open off the tees but the second shots command your attention. On number 2 I hit 5W and wedge but carried it just a touch long toward the back of the green and it one-hopped into the back bunker. Was able to save par but that is one example where just because you have wedge it doesn't make the hole any easier. That part reminded me of Austin Golf Club. Controlling flight and spin is crucial.
The par 5s were scoring holes, if you hit a good drive. I had 3 iron into 3, 5w into 9, and 3 iron into 16. Had to layup on 14 b/c of a poor drive. Good variety on the par 3s. I hit 7 iron, 4 iron, 6 iron, and 8 iron. 17 is such a good hole and I was pleased to birdie that for a skin!
What I liked most is that there is a lot of variety in terms of shots. You need to hit some low, some high, some with lots of spin, some with dead arms. Off the tees you can hit drivers, woods, and long irons. There is a lot of sand so you have to be sharp with that part of your game. There are times where you could be lulled to sleep but you really have to keep your guard up the whole time or she will bite you.
Favorite holes: 3, 4, 6, 7, 12 -18.
Also seems like the kind of place you need to play multiple times b/c weather/wind can change the course so much.
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Edward:
How much did your skin pay?
WW
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85 bucks if I recall correctly.
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Who is Bob Ford?
http://www.pga.com/professionals/bob-ford-pga
I thought it was this guy:
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/bob_ford/
Both of them have spent a lot of time in Pennsylvania ... or, as Matt Ward would have put it, in the Keystone State, pardner!
Pennsy.
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That's right. Summers at oakmont and winters at seminole. Bob is a pro's pro. Great man.
Also, i think we grew up playing the game at Aronimink... which compared to his current rota is somewhat slumming it.
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Had a dream last night that I played Seminole as an unaccompanied single.
In the dream, I forgot my clubs when I left and had to come back the next day to get them. When I got there, my bag was set up on the practice range... but a few clubs were missing. I walked into the clubhouse/locker room to see what happened to my other clubs and was met by a man getting ready to play with a vintage feathery golf ball. He invited me to join him... and he asked me if I knew Tom Paul! :D
Somewhere during our round, I woke up.
Not a bad dream!
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Edward,
Care to elaborate further about the golf course? Here's the 14th from the fw
What the photo doesn't show is the water flanking the photographer on the left and right.
# 14 is a short par 5, it plays from an elevated tee on the ocean.
Fairway bunkers flank both sides with a drainage creek also flanking the left side.
The second shot brings decision making into the equation.
Depending on the wind, do you go for the green, lay up, or go past the flanking water or lay up.
The green is sloped, back to front, with the front bunkers and a back bunker.
I played with a very good golfer who hit the green and was putting for eagle, to a front hole location.
He told me that the previous week, he hit the green, had a 20 footer for eagle and made 7.
He putted off the green into the front bunker.
Yesterday, a two club wind made play very interesting.
When the wind comes off the ocean it seems like a heavier wind in that it seems to have a greater influence on the ball.
At dinner last night, someone said that there's not a bad or mediocre hole on the golf course.
One of the things I've always admired about Seminole is that irrespective of which of the 360 degrees the wind is coming from, the overall tactical balance remains the same.
The design is simply brilliant.
Another terrific golfer played the last five holes in that wind with birdie, birdied, par, birdie, par.
Very impressive.
He may have been one of the best amateur putters I've seen.
He putted with an old Wilson blade, the copy of the old MacGregor, Tommy Armour IMGT putter.
Generous fairways and benign rough allow the broad spectrum of golfer to enjoy the challenge.
Turf conditions are outstanding.
Hal Hicks, the Superintendent and a very good golfer, along with the current President, Jimmy Dunne, another very good golfer continue to strive for optimal playing conditions.
The course is just fun to play, even if it's beating you up.
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/FLA%20MUNI/c4fb184c-3cbd-45f4-979f-de2e2e87cc13_zps7e8e3112.jpg) (http://s618.photobucket.com/user/dfjb23/media/FLA%20MUNI/c4fb184c-3cbd-45f4-979f-de2e2e87cc13_zps7e8e3112.jpg.html)
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I've often heard of Seminoles high reputation but can't I picture it. Any chance of some more photos or a link to some?
All the bestt
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"I've often heard of Seminoles high reputation but can't I picture it. Any chance of some more photos or a link to some?"
Thomas D. -
For pics of Seminole, start here:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=moz35&sz=all&va=seminole+golf
DT
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David,
Thank you. I have a better idea what Seminoles like now.
Isn't Ben Hogan said to have rated one particular hole at Seminole extremely highly?
All the best.
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I think Hogan had a fond impression of number 6. Awesome green on 6. Tee shot is pretty demanding and the approach is to an elevated green that is angled from front left to back right.j
Patrick - good write up. As you say it is pretty forgiving off the tee and I said earlier, the real test begins with the approach shot. I hit some really good and long drives, and a few low hooks. But on 1, even when I hit a low hook, I still had 9 iron in.
On 14, another low hook, I was forced to lay up with a wedge and then had another wedge in. The pin was way up front on the right and I was between gap wedge and PW. After a long discussion with my caddie I decided to go with a softer PW b/c I feared putting too much zip on my gap wedge and spinning it back into the bunker. So I take the PW and nut it all the way to the back and have a 50 footer down hill and it was a miracle to keep it on the green. It was either going to be 10 feet short or off the front. Somehow it stayed on and I made par.
The front 9 has some good holes but imo the stretch from 12-18 is so good.
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There was little wind to contend with. But the 186 bunkers were always in play. Some of the green complex looks from the fairway were really something. 14 is one I particularly remember.
Edward:
If you played Seminole without any wind, then you have not really played Seminole.
If there had been wind, you would not be telling us what clubs you hit into all the par fives.
I hope you get to go back and play the real thing someday. Lucky you did not take pictures or you might not get the chance!
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Tom - I agree. She was pretty defenseless. (And still not easy!)
Several holes would be very tough into the wind. For instance the par 5 15th. We played our drives to the right of the right most fairway bunker and had 220ish in. With a strong breeze we'd have been aiming at the far left bunker and it would have been a legitimate 3 shot-er.
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Why is it that Seminole is not Seminole without the wind? A great course should be a great course regardless, or am I missing something.
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Tom - I agree. She was pretty defenseless. (And still not easy!)
Several holes would be very tough into the wind. For instance the par 5 15th. We played our drives to the right of the right most fairway bunker and had 220ish in. With a strong breeze we'd have been aiming at the far left bunker and it would have been a legitimate 3 shot-er.
Edward,
Every hole is tough into the wind, some are just a lot tougher, like # 10.
As to # 15, when played into the wind, the carry to the right is more than dicey, as is the second shot carry.
I hit a good drive, 3-wood, 8-iron and we didn't play from the back tees.
I think what I've discovered about Seminole is that your recoveries have to be relatively close to the hole.
It's so easy to hit a recovery 30-40 or more feet away and be left with a certain 3 putt.
The convex nature of the greens, when coupled with the concave nature of the bunkers and surrounds, direct marginal shots far away from the hole, leaving the golfer with a very dicey recovery, in fact the recovery is far more dangerous than it appears, but, the golfer only discovers that after a so-so recovery.
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Why is it that Seminole is not Seminole without the wind? A great course should be a great course regardless, or am I missing something.
To add to your statement, aren't all courses harder/more challenging/differently played when it is windy? Nonetheless, the course looks like a blast to play.
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Why is it that Seminole is not Seminole without the wind? A great course should be a great course regardless, or am I missing something.
Cary:
A course has to be designed for its environment. Seminole [like most links courses, and like Pacific Dunes] is in a windy spot, so it's designed with a bit of shoulder room for drives and approach shots, in anticipation of the wind. If you catch it on a rare calm day, you are inclined to conclude that it's not as great as everyone makes it out to be. You have to see it in a bit of wind to see its teeth. That's not to say it's a boring course on a calm day -- it's not -- but it's not as challenging as some others, because it had to hold something in reserve for normal conditions.
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Why is it that Seminole is not Seminole without the wind? A great course should be a great course regardless, or am I missing something.
Cary,
You are missing something, but then again, you've been an anti-Seminole golfer for years.
First, the course sits on the ocean, hence, WIND is an integral component of the design.
Take National, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Pacific/Bandon Dunes and all of the links courses in the UK, and take away the wind, and the play of the course is altered considerably.
But, the wind, is almost as prevalent as sunlight.
It is woven into the fabric of the course.
And, I'd venture to say that you've never played Seminole under competitive conditions.
Playing a casual round with friends is dramatically different from competing in a medal play event.
Seminole in casual rounds is an extremely enjoyable challenge, with the wind being the icing on the cake.
Seminole in medal play competitions can be ferocious.
What's the difference between the two plays ?
Well, the course remains static, but, it's the pressure to score and the pressure to avoid a big number that works on your mind.
In some cases the greens are bigger than they appear (#'s 2 & 11) , so a shot that you think is great, is 50 feet from the hole, leading to a 3 putt or worse.
And sometimes, a green plays much smaller than it looks (# 17), leading to a missed green and a more than challenging recovery.
Saturday, into the wind I birdied # 10 and felt like I picked up one to two shots on the field and then birdied # 18 and felt the same way.
Sometimes the most seemingly benign holes eat your lunch.
The 12th hole, a relatively short hole from an elevated tee is one of those holes.
The fairway looks extremely wide, but, there is a creek running parallel to the left flank, with OB.
The green looks like a lazy or dangling "L" bunkers are all around and the green slopes from front to back in general.
Irrespective of the direction and velocity of the wind, that darn green is hard to hit.
In fact, I think the hole played the 3rd hardest in the Coleman Tournament, which hosts a very strong field.
I'd be curious as to how many times you played Seminole and what the conditions were when you played, in terms of the turf, pace of the greens and wind.
If I could only play one course in the south in the winter, it would be Seminole by a wide margin, but. that's just me.
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(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/FLA%20MUNI/c4fb184c-3cbd-45f4-979f-de2e2e87cc13_zps7e8e3112.jpg) (http://s618.photobucket.com/user/dfjb23/media/FLA%20MUNI/c4fb184c-3cbd-45f4-979f-de2e2e87cc13_zps7e8e3112.jpg.html)
I wanted to comment further on the play of this hole.
Down wind, the green is reachable by the longer golfers, but, as the direction of the wind changes, the entire complexion of the hole and the play of the hole changes.
Downwind, after a decent drive, the water hazards that pinch in about 130 or so yards from the green, don't present a problem on the second shot, provided you hit a good (distance & direction) second shot. Mis-hits are always in jeopardy.
So, downwind, depending upon the hole location, you either want to go for the green, hit it into the front bunker or leave yourself short of the bunker with an L, S or regular wedge.
With crosswinds, the dynamic changes, the drive becomes a little dicier and the flanking bunkers come more into play, as does the flanking water about 130 yards from the green.
Into the wind, it really changes because the second shot requires a decision, try to hit it past the flanking/pinching water or lay back.
If you lay back, you probably have a shot in the 150 or more range, to an elevated green, flanked by bunkers, with bunkers front and back to a fairly sloped back to front green.
Now, this benign hole, isn't so benign.
That's the beauty of Seminole.
The character and play of each hole changes, and changes rathter dramatically, while the overall tactical balance remains intact.
# 10 is another perfect example.
With the prevailing wind out of the SE, you have to be cautious with your drive, often opting for a 3-wood/rescue/iron so as not to drive into the water left. That leaves you downwind to a sloping green almost surrounded on three sides by water.
Not daunting, but dicey.
Now, into the wind or played with a wind from the East, this short hole becomes a beast.
The green, while sloping back to front, also slopes from East to West at the centerpoint to western point.
thus, shots drawing into the green, with an easterly wind, are in danger of going into the water, even after hitting the green 30 or 40 feet right of the water.
On Saturday, the two fellows on the other team, started their round with a 10, best ball on this hole.
Two years ago, my partner and I started with a 6 or 7.
I birdied it on Saturday and definitely picked up at least one and probably closer to two shots on the field.
And, if you play the hole away from the water on your second, now you're chipping/pitching back toward the water to a green that runs away from you.
This is a spectacular hole, with or without wind, and, it's mostly with wind.
Hope that helps
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So, downwind, depending upon the hole location, you either want to go for the green, hit it into the front bunker or leave yourself short of the bunker with an L, S or regular wedge.
Patrick:
If the hole is playing downwind, do you really want to be in the front bunker (hitting a downwind bunker shot) or short of the bunker (hitting a downwind wedge shot) ? Wouldn't you rather be in the left bunker or the back bunker so your third shot is back into the wind? Or is the slope of the green so severe that you'd rather just play into it, even if you're playing downwind?
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It's a pretty severe slope Tom...I'd think the front bunker is better than a lot of laces on the green.
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Tom & Pat,
Thanks for giving a little more insight on the course.
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So, downwind, depending upon the hole location, you either want to go for the green, hit it into the front bunker or leave yourself short of the bunker with an L, S or regular wedge.
Patrick:
If the hole is playing downwind, do you really want to be in the front bunker (hitting a downwind bunker shot) or short of the bunker (hitting a downwind wedge shot) ?
Tom,
It depends upon the hole location.
With a front hole location, I want to be in the bunker rather than short of the bunker.
With a middle or back hole location I want to be short of the bunker so that I can use a Lob-Wedge.
Wouldn't you rather be in the left bunker or the back bunker so your third shot is back into the wind?
If the hole was cut all the way back, I wouldn't mind being in the back bunker down wind, but, that assumes that I can hit the green in two.
If the hole was cut in the front of the green, I definitely wouldn't want to be in the back bunker, even playing into the wind since that green gets steeper in front, and it's very fast.
As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine had an eagle putt of about 20 feet to a front hole location, hit what he thought was a good putt, ended up in the front bunker, left it in the bunker and made a smooth 7.
I'd rather not be in the flanking bunkers due to the pitch of the green.
Not that I have much choice once I decide to go for the green, but, if I had my druthers, the hole location dictates my play.
Fortunately, the hole location can be pinpointed when you're on the 11th green and 12th tee.
Or is the slope of the green so severe that you'd rather just play into it, even if you're playing downwind?
The slope of the green gets more severe as you get closer to the front of the green.
Recently I had a 15 foot birdie putt from 11 o'clock to a front hole location and I putted about as defensive as I could get.
The reason I was so defensive is that the fellow I was playing with is the one who made the 7 after hitting the green in two and he had a 20 footer that rolled past the hole and came within 6 inches of going off the green.
Even if you leave yourself a two footer, it's still a dicey two footer and should you somehow manage to leave your approach putt above the hole, at medal and even at match play, it's a knee knocker.
I think the size of some of the greens conceal or diminish the perception on the amount of break on short putts.
It would seem that the general plane of the large green conceals the break because the golfer remains in the macro realm and doesn't recognize the micro realm.
Hole location at Seminole has such an enormous influence on play.
On # 2 with a mid to mid-front hole, I thought I hit a great shot, about 10-15 feet from the hole, but, as I walked up to the green, the ball was still rolling and came to rest about 5 yards off the green.
If you don't get the ball to the sector where the hole is cut, bad things can happen, and often, those bad things are related to wind direction and velocity.
Had I hit that approach another 10 feet or so, I would have had a relatively short birdie putt.
I know that you tend to want to keep the ball below the hole, but, there are certain hole locations where being on the plane where the hole is cut, even a little behind it, produces better results.
It's a fascinating course and I think they have the "maintenance meld" just about right.