Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: PCCraig on November 01, 2013, 05:54:13 PM

Title: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on November 01, 2013, 05:54:13 PM
I saw this and thought it was worth posting.

For those of you that have never heard of it, Keller is a 1920's era municipal course in Saint Paul, MN which was designed by a local engineer named Paul Coates who met with and tried to channel Donald Ross in designing the course. It later hosted two PGA Championships, a Western Open, and the PGA Tour's Saint Paul Open for a few decades.

Keller has been closed for the last year and a half to be renovated by our own Richard Mandell. I was lucky enough to have gotten a tour a couple of months ago and found the work being done to be really interesting. When it's done, I think it'll be the best public golf course in the Twin Cities.

The below is a blog post from the Superintendant which offers a "sneak peak" of the renovation work:

http://kellerrenovation.blogspot.com/2013/10/hole-by-hole-pictorial-1025.html
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: RJ_Daley on November 01, 2013, 07:26:23 PM
Much appreciated, Pat.  I believe this is going to be very special.  In the tradition of some of the great county and state owned courses, I think this one is going to go to the top tier.  With the rich history of tournaments and county club activities, it already holds great esteem.  But, the new lease on life, with what appears to be a deft touch by Richard to keep the classic feel, seems like a total winner.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on November 01, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
I played Keller regularly when I was in graduate school in the late 60's.  I loved the layout but it was a tired old course that showed her age.  I have nothing but fond memories of the course and can't wait to see it again the next time I return to the cities.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Tom Fagerli on November 02, 2013, 08:27:19 PM
Sure looks nice! The people of St Paul are going to have a beauty at Keller.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: jim_lewis on November 02, 2013, 08:38:31 PM
Pat:

I always notice your photo of Hogan and Palmer standing on the 2nd tee at ANGC. I'm not much of a collector, but one of my prized possessions is a copy of that photo signed by both Hogan and Palmer (in that order). It was quite a trick to get both their signatures, especially Hogan. Unfortunately the signatures are about 30 years old and have faded to the point that they are hard to see.

Jim
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Rick Shefchik on November 03, 2013, 11:15:49 AM
For those who have read references here to the oak tree in front of the par-3 4th hole at Keller, but have never seen it:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OjNEt8EtTjI/Um_KDT0LiBI/AAAAAAAABYw/Kzkpc-IbayU/s1600/2013_10250025.JPG)
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Forrest Richardson on November 03, 2013, 11:54:01 AM
Rich's work looks very, very good. Our office was interested in this work, but took a pass based on the logistics and our workload at the time. It was a very competitive process, with a good result for the County…not to mention Rich! Rich is an ideal fit and the results seem perfect for what was needed at this great setting. Hats off!
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on November 03, 2013, 09:05:35 PM
Can't wait to play it.

I think Keller was my favorite TC public before, and it looks to be much improved.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: RJ_Daley on November 03, 2013, 11:46:36 PM
My home course is another county owned facility with pretty good credentials.  We held our Wis., State Am a few years ago, and tat year's Senior USGA Am champ won at our State Am with a 4 day -1 and second place was +1.  They played at just barely 6850 yards.

We are remodelling all 18 greens at the same time and have been playing 18temps all year.  The grow-in is going spectacularly.  But, the remodel job did involve taking a bit of internal contour out of some of our best greens.  It remains to be seen with the balance of a new cultivar of bent (Luminary developed at Rutgers) and likely greater green speeds, if the tone down of contour is going to take too much scoring resistance out of the equation.

That all said, I recently was speaking with our Pro and a few of or Men's club officers and floated the idea of trying to make contact with Keller's Men's club officials, to think about having a fall 2014 home and home series of competition and try to schedule it on a weekend that also has a Packer's - Vikings game.  Since our course would/should be in great condition with green turf by then, we could have the first one here, and the next year at Keller.  It could start small with 20-40 players and might catch on and grow into something cool.  

I thoroughly enjoyed my play at Keller.  I'd go back there in an instant.  I don't think the Keller folks would think our course is not up to the challenge either.  There are many similarities, but I'd rate Keller better on just about all head to head individual design and now obviously construction features comparisons.  Our next projects must involve bunker renewal.  The drainage is lousy at current time.  
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on November 04, 2013, 10:10:25 AM
For those who have read references here to the oak tree in front of the par-3 4th hole at Keller, but have never seen it:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OjNEt8EtTjI/Um_KDT0LiBI/AAAAAAAABYw/Kzkpc-IbayU/s1600/2013_10250025.JPG)

It should be noted that Rich and his team have done quite a bit to make the 4th more playable. Prior to the renovation, I thought the hole was stupid as the tree had grown so high that on a 160 yard hole you had to hit a sky high mid-iron to a green that was only 15-20 paces deep. The green now is much deeper and there is now an option to punch a shot below the tree.

It's certainly quirky, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on November 04, 2013, 10:11:42 AM
Pat:

I always notice your photo of Hogan and Palmer standing on the 2nd tee at ANGC. I'm not much of a collector, but one of my prized possessions is a copy of that photo signed by both Hogan and Palmer (in that order). It was quite a trick to get both their signatures, especially Hogan. Unfortunately the signatures are about 30 years old and have faded to the point that they are hard to see.

Jim

That's very neat Jim. It's a great picture and I can only imagine how difficult it was to get both men to sign it!
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on November 04, 2013, 11:18:31 AM
Pat, Thanks for bringing up Paul Diegnau's blog posting.  The place is looking good and I am excited to see it open next summer and getting to play it as well.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on November 04, 2013, 12:51:56 PM
Pat, Thanks for bringing up Paul Diegnau's blog posting.  The place is looking good and I am excited to see it open next summer and getting to play it as well.

Really can't wait to hit a knockdown under that tree. My life in golf will be complete!

Obviously pictures can't substitute for seeing the place with one's own two eyes, but the views from the tee boxes seem much, much improved == particularly Nos. 1, 5, 14, and 16.

I'm curious about the bunker on No. 2. How far to carry into it from the back tee? How far to carry over it? Is there much difference in green-approachableness from the right fairway and the left fairway? (From the picture, it looks like the left fairway is a much-inferior angle -- is it?)

Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on November 04, 2013, 01:34:08 PM
Dan,

The golf hole plays 393 yards from the tips and 349 yards from the regular tees.  To hit into the short right side of the bunker will take a 267 yard drive from the tips and a 230 yard tee shot from the regulars.  To carry the far right corner of the bunker will take a 287 yard drive from the tips and a 247 yard drive from the regular tees.  There is an original small pot bunker on the far left that was blocked in by trees and rough before.  When we removed the trees, we brought the fairway into the bunker on that side to bring it into play for the big hitter choosing to hit it down the left side.  
That side (left) isn't inferior, per se.  It is just not as desirable as the right side.  The central bunker hazard is designed to have risk and reward by carrying the far right corner.  At that point, the green sets up better for an approach from the right with no bunker to carry and one can have a slightly shorter approach as well. Three good reasons to carry the right side or play closer to that side than the left.

Those same three reasons are why one doesn't gain reward by playing down the left side.  If the golfer takes the left side, which is the side that requires less carry, then the golfer has an awkward angle into the green from that side and has a bunker to deal with and a slightly longer approach.

So the right side is the preferable side.  I did not create a situation where both sides are equally desirable off the tee.  I think that is the problem with so many central hazards - they don't really have a hierarchy of challenge, which I think they are supposed to have.  Those type of split fairway holes are just for aesthetics, not strategy.  There should be a reason to play to one side or the other and an additional drawback if the golfer chooses the other side.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Jason Topp on November 04, 2013, 02:05:43 PM
It all looks very nice but the 12th looks like a drastic improvement.  Good luck with the grow in.  I assume this fall has been good weather for it.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on November 04, 2013, 02:27:05 PM
So the right side is the preferable side.  I did not create a situation where both sides are equally desirable off the tee.  I think that is the problem with so many central hazards - they don't really have a hierarchy of challenge, which I think they are supposed to have.  Those type of split fairway holes are just for aesthetics, not strategy.  There should be a reason to play to one side or the other and an additional drawback if the golfer chooses the other side.

Rich --

I get that.

What I guess I'm not getting (I repeat: these are just pictures!) is: It appears that the preferable right side is easier to hit to than the non-preferable left side. A drive to the right side looks like all reward/no risk to me -- which takes the left side out of play, except for a bad shot.

My amateur view is that the problem with most dual-fairway holes is that one side or the other is clearly preferable under almost all conditions. I'm wondering if Keller No. 2 will make players think hard. It's the one hole that I wondered about.

Here it is, for those who haven't checked out the blog:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2UqBBe-lGrE/Um_KAzQC2VI/AAAAAAAABYY/pgQt6eZCEmw/s1600/2013_10250021.JPG)
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on November 04, 2013, 02:45:46 PM
Dan,

The right side may be a bigger target, but it requires more of a carry.  That is where the risk/reward comes in.  The exact perfect spot to hit is carrying the far corner of the fairway bunker.  Can you show a picture that shows the entire fairway?  The one here cuts off the right side.  I would but haven't figured out how to insert pictures yet.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on November 04, 2013, 02:49:31 PM
Dan (& Richard),

Wouldn't the preferred line off the tee be dictated in large part by where the pin is on the green?
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on November 04, 2013, 03:14:18 PM
Dan,

The right side may be a bigger target, but it requires more of a carry.  That is where the risk/reward comes in.  The exact perfect spot to hit is carrying the far corner of the fairway bunker.  Can you show a picture that shows the entire fairway?  The one here cuts off the right side.  I would but haven't figured out how to insert pictures yet.

Rich --

Use the scroll bar at the bottom of the picture.

I'm not sure how to shrink that picture.

Dan
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on November 04, 2013, 03:23:43 PM
Pat,

The front left bunker still cuts into a play from the left side no matter where the pin is that particular day.  When the pin is on the left side it is still best to come in from the right side because of the angle.  When the pin is on the right side, it may still be advantageous to come in from that side as well because of taking that front left bunker out of play still as well as being a bit closer. Or it may not depending on the player.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Shane Wright on November 04, 2013, 04:24:07 PM
The pictures look great.  #12 is going to be special.  Keller could end up being a case study for popular municipal courses in other major metro areas.  I was amazed they approved the funding for this project given the economic climate at the time.  Keller is going to be buried with play once it re-opens.  I can't wait to see the finished product.  

With regard to #2, I like the angle of the centerline bunker.  I think it brings several decisions into play, certainly one that hasn't been mentioned is just laying up short of it and having 140-150 left.

Shane
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Rick Shefchik on November 05, 2013, 10:45:40 AM
The way I'd look at hole #2 if I were a long hitter is that the left side actually opens up a bit the farther I hit it, while the rough line and trees start to pinch in if I hit it long down the right side.

I'm not a long hitter, and I'll go right every time on #2 (or lay up), but I think the left would be more tempting if I could bomb it. When you're hitting a sand wedge into the green, who cares about a greenside bunker?
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on November 05, 2013, 11:49:06 AM
The way I'd look at hole #2 if I were a long hitter is that the left side actually opens up a bit the farther I hit it, while the rough line and trees start to pinch in if I hit it long down the right side.

Yes, but ...

If you were long enough to reach the land where the left side opens up (i.e. past the bunker on the left), aren't you long enough to just aim right over the center of the bunker?

The absolute worst place to put your drive, it seems to me, is in that bunker on the left.

(Apologies to Rich for initiating a discussion of a hole none of us has yet played. The proof of the pudding, obviously, will be in the playing -- which I'm sure all of us Minnesotans are eager to do.)
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on November 05, 2013, 12:03:47 PM
Dan,

No apologies necessary.  I appreciate the banter and debate.  A good golf hole always spurs debate and I am fortunate the debate has begun before it opens. I do agree with your assessment about hitting it to the right if you can hit it that far to the left.  Sorry, Rick.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Rick Shefchik on November 05, 2013, 12:40:00 PM
No problem, Rich. I was just taking a short break from writing, anyway.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on November 05, 2013, 01:01:25 PM
Good to hear it. 
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Morgan Clawson on November 05, 2013, 01:23:13 PM
Rich -

There is a good chance that I may never reach the fairway bunker on 2 due to my athletic limitations.

One thing that I liked about the old hole was that the approach shot was blind from the bottom of the hill. Yet, it only took a few steps to walk ahead and locate the flag.

Is that still the case, or has the hill be softened?
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on November 05, 2013, 01:34:29 PM
Morgan,

I've seen you walk.  I think you can reach the bunker provided you are playing the right tees.  Regarding the hill, it has not been touched other than the bunker work.
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on July 17, 2014, 11:33:05 AM
Keller is reopening this weekend after being closed since 2012. The below link is an excellent hole-by-hole featuring photos & a video tour from Richard Mandell...really great stuff.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_26146657/keller-golf-course-hole-by-hole-guide

Looking forward to playing it again this summer & fall!
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on July 17, 2014, 11:36:47 AM
Keller is reopening this weekend after being closed since 2012. The below link is an excellent hole-by-hole featuring photos & a video tour from Richard Mandell...really great stuff.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_26146657/keller-golf-course-hole-by-hole-guide

Looking forward to playing it again this summer & fall!

Man, you're fast, Pat! Did you see that before I sent it to you ... what, five minutes ago???

Additional stories at http://twincities.com/golf (http://twincities.com/golf)
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on July 17, 2014, 11:38:39 AM
Keller is reopening this weekend after being closed since 2012. The below link is an excellent hole-by-hole featuring photos & a video tour from Richard Mandell...really great stuff.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_26146657/keller-golf-course-hole-by-hole-guide

Looking forward to playing it again this summer & fall!

Man, you're fast, Pat! Did you see that before I sent it to you ... what, five minutes ago???

Additional stories at http://twincities.com/golf (http://twincities.com/golf)

Saw the PP post it on Twitter this morning!
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on July 21, 2014, 12:03:24 PM
Early Reviews:

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_26175315/keller-golf-club-gets-early-rave-reviews-from
Title: Re: Sneak Peak of Keller Golf Course Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Patrick Hodgdon on July 22, 2014, 04:36:17 PM
Early Reviews:

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_26175315/keller-golf-club-gets-early-rave-reviews-from

I'm playing tonight (for the first time) and will report back. Based on the hole-by-hole's with Richard it's going to be a ton of fun!
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Stephen Davis on July 22, 2014, 05:04:53 PM
I am going to be in town next week and am going to get the chance to see the work done at Keller next Saturday. It looks really great from the pictures. I am looking forward to it and will post my thoughts after I see it.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on July 22, 2014, 08:22:06 PM
Morgan Clawson and I played it Sunday. We both seem to be holding off on pronouncing any judgments, till others have had a chance to play it during our Minnesota GCA gathering there next month.

It will surprise no one that I have *many* opinions -- none of which will be changed by others' to the contrary!

If you're in the Twin Cities, as a resident or a visiting golfer, you owe it to yourself to play Keller.


Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Patrick Hodgdon on July 23, 2014, 08:36:08 AM
Morgan Clawson and I played it Sunday. We both seem to be holding off on pronouncing any judgments, till others have had a chance to play it during our Minnesota GCA gathering there next month.

It will surprise no one that I have *many* opinions -- none of which will be changed by others' to the contrary!

If you're in the Twin Cities, as a resident or a visiting golfer, you owe it to yourself to play Keller.




Wait so am I supposed to hold off on commentating?
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on July 23, 2014, 09:38:23 AM
Morgan Clawson and I played it Sunday. We both seem to be holding off on pronouncing any judgments, till others have had a chance to play it during our Minnesota GCA gathering there next month.

It will surprise no one that I have *many* opinions -- none of which will be changed by others' to the contrary!

If you're in the Twin Cities, as a resident or a visiting golfer, you owe it to yourself to play Keller.





Wait so am I supposed to hold off on commentating?

Say what you will!

I was speaking (or, rather, not speaking, for now) for myself!
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on July 23, 2014, 09:55:51 AM
Morgan Clawson and I played it Sunday. We both seem to be holding off on pronouncing any judgments, till others have had a chance to play it during our Minnesota GCA gathering there next month.

It will surprise no one that I have *many* opinions -- none of which will be changed by others' to the contrary!

If you're in the Twin Cities, as a resident or a visiting golfer, you owe it to yourself to play Keller.




Wait so am I supposed to hold off on commentating?

Patrick,

Please post your thoughts, I would really like to hear what you think.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Patrick Hodgdon on July 23, 2014, 10:55:43 AM
Ok a couple of things to note:

I had never played Keller before last night so I can't speak to what was there before, what was new, changes good/bad etc.

I did however watch about 12 of the hole-by-hole videos with Richard talking about the design so I did have a little background.

We teed off at 5:45 hoping to play fast and finish by 9:00 when it was dark. We waited behind 4 old ladies on the front (thankfully they only played 9) then caught up to 4 drunk guys on the back which we waited on again.

We took a cart thinking we may need it toward the end as it got dark, but based on how long we waited I would have rather just walked.

We played the back tees at 6700ish. (My playing partner is a non-GCAer who is about an 8 handicap)

Overall Thoughts:

The course is firm, fast, and for the most part fun. (Actually firm should probably read FIRM.)

As I was preoccupied somewhat with trying to play fast yet waiting on the tees and seeing the course for the first time I was more looking for things I liked than things I didn't. Of note, nothing really stuck in my craw in terms of something that I didn't like.

The topography is really ideal for golf. Regardless of the more micro design changes that were done, this is a really great piece of land for a golf course.

The ground game is definitely something to use at Keller.

Some holes of note:

1 - A really nice short par-4 opener up the hill from a good back tee box
2 - I like the center line bunker for interest off the tee, however  I'm not sure the risk of playing left is worth a reward, playing in from the right seemed preferred.
4 - I don't think there is quite enough room to play the under the tree option, however I played a second ball that way (punched a 6 iron) and it leaked farther right than desired but kicked back left considerably to the front corner of the green FWIW. It takes a good W/9 iron to get over the green. My friend thought this was the dumbest hole in the world and had nothing good to say about it. 
5 - Good hole with interest on both shots and a good raised green
6 - a challenging longer par-3
7 - reminded me a bit of #2 at Minneapolis with the fairway dip at the end of the landing zone
9 - Really liked #9 up the hill and a nice green with great movement
10 - Fun downhill par-5 with the green falling away. I missed my drive right and had to hit out right of the green but would like to play it again from the fairway.
12 - Did I say FIRM? I absolutely crushed my drive and had a 9 iron into the green from a downhill lie. It landed pin high and rolled 100+ feet to the back of the green (it does slope away slightly). A solid 3-putt par for me here.
13 - An excellent uphill par 3 to a well bunkered green. I missed my shot left but somehow got a friendly kick 10 yards right back onto the green. I haven't played the variety of courses a lot of everyone else here has, but this hole stuck out as unique for the look of it to me. Maybe I just haven't played enough to have seen more uphill par-3's like it?
14 - A good hole and the only one I wish I could have played again with knowledge of how it plays. Not knowing better I drove it through the fairway into the water hazard on 15 and probably would have hit hybrid next time. A great elevated green.
15 - A challenging par-3 up the hill to a big green.
16 - The only hole I might have some qualms with. I killed a drive down the left side and was in the first cut 240 out but had some trees overhanging down the left side that prohibited my second shot.
17 - A really good short par-4 with a very unique green that plays uphill slightly on the second shot but slopes away from you. As a result it reminded me a bit of #12 at White Bear Yacht Club (which is my favorite hole there)
18 - A nice finishing hole to a great setting in front of the new clubhouse with views of the lake down the leftside.


Overall I thought it was definitely a Doak 6 and maybe a 7. It ranks behind Lawsonia ( 8 ) and CommmonGround (7) in terms of public's under $100 I've played and ahead of Chaska Town Course (6) which I also like.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on July 23, 2014, 11:11:45 AM
Nice report, Patrick, thank you.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: PCCraig on July 24, 2014, 10:35:10 AM
From GolfCourseArchitecture.net:

"Richard Mandell adds strategic value and improves playability at Keller GC"

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Root/Home-actualpage/Articles actualpage/Article/tabid/70/ItemId/3183/Default.aspx#.U9EXtvldWA9  (http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Root/Home-actualpage/Articles actualpage/Article/tabid/70/ItemId/3183/Default.aspx#.U9EXtvldWA9)
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on July 25, 2014, 09:02:48 AM
Word is they have had 300 rounds a day so far.  Sounds like Mr. Hodgson may need to keep his driver in the bag.  Seriously, though thanks for your hole by hole insight. There is just not enough room to stretch the golf course to accommodate the big hitters. 

Regarding the tree on four, that was democracy in action.  As I went through the walk-throughs with golfers prior to the design phase, By show of hands, the far majority of 100 different players said they wanted the tree to remain.  Considering I am alive to type this today, I heeded their desire.  That said, it does introduce a bit more demand to control trajectory as a design element of the hole.

We made some major improvements to #16 by eliminating the blindness between the tees and first landing area and adding more accessible tees to make the hole a par five for all (before it was a five for some and a four for others, a major concern expressed by the County).  We also moved blind bunkers from the left side of the hole to fit better along the more visible right side of the hole.  There was nothing that could be done to soften the left to right slope of the golf hole as, frankly, the entire site pitches that way. 

Sixteen is the only hole out there where the hole plays in one direction and the topo goes in the opposite direction.  As long as there are few of those holes on a golf course, it does present a different challenge so in the name of variety, I like it.    The only way to change that would require the removal of hundreds of trees and the earthwork would certainly destroy the character of the ground.  I think the alternative would have been worse.  That said, I would have tried to re-route it from the start if I was around in 1929.

I am glad the ninth green is getting compliments.  Usually when you shorten a golf hole, the reaction is a bit negative. I am curious to see what needs to happen to get Dan Kelly and Morgan Clawson's comments. I am traveling this weekend but will try to keep an eye on the comments and reply to anyone's questions.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Howard Riefs on August 05, 2014, 05:48:31 PM
Nice Golfweek article about the renovation:

http://golfweek.com/news/2014/aug/04/keller-golf-course-2014-renovate-pga-championship/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2014/aug/04/keller-golf-course-2014-renovate-pga-championship/)
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Stephen Davis on August 05, 2014, 06:03:25 PM
I had the privilege of playing Keller this past weekend. I thoroughly enjoyed the round and the course was a lot of fun. The only controversial parts that I can see would be the preservation of the trees in front of 4 and 17. I think they both work. I would make a small change on 17, but it wouldn't be to take out the tree, and the change I would make would entirely depend on the intent of the designer, so it might be a moot point. Has to be one of the best value golf courses I have played. Right up there with Rustic Canyon, Wild Horse and CommonGround. Great job to all involved!
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Dan Kelly on August 06, 2014, 10:56:53 AM
I am curious to see what needs to happen to get Dan Kelly and Morgan Clawson's comments.

Now that this thread has resurfaced, I will note that I sent my comments directly to Rich -- and will continue to hold off commenting here till our Minnesota GCA contingent has gathered to play the course, later this month (or at least that has been the plan).

No one should presume anything from my reticence (which, by the way, does not mean reluctance, no matter how many people use it that way).

Oh, and by the way:

Did you see the news about "literally"? God, help us -- literally and figuratively: http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/according_to_the_dictionary_literally_now_also_means_figuratively_newscred/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/according_to_the_dictionary_literally_now_also_means_figuratively_newscred/)
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Rees Milikin on August 06, 2014, 11:19:42 AM
I am curious to see what needs to happen to get Dan Kelly and Morgan Clawson's comments.


Oh, and by the way:

Did you see the news about "literally"? God, help us -- literally and figuratively: http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/according_to_the_dictionary_literally_now_also_means_figuratively_newscred/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/according_to_the_dictionary_literally_now_also_means_figuratively_newscred/)

Geez, this is worse than people spelling lose, loose.  I wonder when we will see a spelling change in that word.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: RJ_Daley on August 06, 2014, 08:59:03 PM
I had to make a fast run into the TCs and arrived there at 445P Monday.  I called ahead from the road and said I only had time for 9.  I got right on with a local 3some.  I only played the front.  The turf in FW was pretty good with some bounce and run.  The new greens actually had a head start from my own county full greens reconstruction at Brown County.  I will say for whatever reason, the growin at Keller is decent, but significantly lags ours in texture.  The Keller HOC  is higher, yeilding a slower and bit more bumpy putt.  If I didn't have our own to compare the green growin progress, I would say Keller is good for the growin time frame.  

Since I only played Keller once a few months before close to renovate, I probably can't declare for certsin but, I did feel the greens contours may have been softened and some greens sizes reduced.  That is only an impression.  I'll leave it for the TC fellows and of course Richard to fill details in.  The course is still a wonderful community asset.  I love the place for its offer of an enjoyable round of golf.  I have no beef with leaving the tree in at the short par 3.  I would have been keen to route the cart path to leave the tee area and cross left to right well ahead of the tree and green, even if I had to melt the hummoch near the pond down a foot or two.  I would have backed the green up with the dreaded Reese's pieces or even an Eden like beach bunker than the cart path there now.  Maybe there was a wetland envioro restraint...  Was the green reduced in width on the right side?

The clubhouse is about right for the venue IMHO.  Food and bev was quite reasonable and good.  Don't know about rental or group facilities for outtings and party events, but it seems the have some options to offer that.

I hope to get back in the next few weeks and join the TC guys to hear impressions.  I am pretty sure the back nine is still the stronger test of golf.  We'll see.... ;D
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Rick Shefchik on August 06, 2014, 11:54:18 PM
Dick, we had an unbelievably wet spring -- a record in some parts of the Twin Cities, which couldn't have helped the grow-in. That said, when I did a walk-around just before Keller Opened, I was amazed at how great the tees looked. The greens, on the other hand, will definitely take another year before they get to optimum condition. And, yes, the greens have been flattened a bit to tolerate greater green speeds. A couple of the old greens -- 5, 12 and 15, in particular -- were almost unputtable at any speed. Richard can answer this better than I can, but I don't think the 4th green has been reduced on the right.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on August 08, 2014, 02:23:40 PM
RJ,

Thanks for the input.  To answer your questions about the greens, only four greens were reduced in size - 4, 12, 13, and 17.  The rest were enlarged. This was as a result of my choice to restore the size and shape of the greens derived from a 1940 aerial we overlaid.  The green average jumped from 4800 sf to 5300 square feet.  I think that the slight size increase may provide the partial illusion that some of the greens were softened.  Only a few were softened based upon concerns brought up by the golfers and County officials.  The greens that most come to mind as requiring softening going into the renovation were 3, 5, 8, 13, and 15.  Other putting surfaces were softened in spots and more severe in others.  There is a good amount of 4 -5 % slopes mixed in with 2-3% slopes.  Anything more and the greens would become a problem for the majority of golfers.  Of course, the difference between 2% and 5% is a matter of inches and undetectable by the average eyes. Yet the difference in playability is great.

Originally the fifth green was a 5% back to front consistent slope.  now there are stepped slopes mixing 4-5% with softer percentages gently working its way down the hill.  #15 is similar, but a bit different because I was able to cut a ridge down in the back which did not require adjusting the front of the putting surface as much. 

It is interesting and I would love to hear people's opinions that some have said that the character of a few holes was lost and when asked to elaborate, they said the putting surfaces were softened.  They then offered that nothing else contributed to the character loss. 

Regarding #4, the green was brought in from both sides significantly and reduced in size from 5,770 sf to 4950 sf.  But it was deepened in the back.

RJ,  I am interested in your suggestion of bringing the cart path in front of the hole in order to have some protection in the back. The path originally crossed diagonally as you suggested, but to me the sight was so hideous that it was a no-brainer to move it to the left.  It also allowed me to bring the tee box away from the heavy treeline on the left for more sunlight. 

For such a short hole, i think that no protection behind contributes to its challenge to have little behind the green to stop a golf shot.  Others were a bit critical about that concept, but if there was a pond in front guarding the putting surface, most people wouldn't think twice about it if a shot fell just short and into the water. 

The interesting point there is that hazards in front of greens seem acceptable, but hazards behind seem more unfair.  Anyone have a thought on that?
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: RJ_Daley on August 08, 2014, 06:04:51 PM
Richard, when I return there in a few weeks, I'll take another look and snap a few pix.  But, I feel rather strong against the idea of the asphalt cart path running the entire distance of the whole back of the green with about a 6ft strip of blue grass separating the path from the collar-putting surface, then a very narrow strip more of bluegrass before the land falls into a bushy ravine. 

As for the comment the path did run across the front of the teeing ground and you felt looked hideous, I actua, ly do not have that memory from the one and only previous round I played there.  So, it didn't leave a lasting "hideous" impression with me.   I just think a path, perhaps camouflaged by cutting it deeper than the native terrain a foot, and some form of flat rock ledge on near bank of cart path to futher hide it might have served the need better than the current path route and location.

No question this hole presented you as the remodelling architect with a set of challenges from diverse and strong opinions about the quirky tree, to the confined space with the ravine behind.  I for one think the hole is one of those "character" concepts.  The character comes from its sense of place and location, the quirky tree that has its own place in local tradition and history unique to this one hole.  I'm not concerned at all with the double hazard-penalty nature of theguarding tree and the front left bunker.  That situation leaves a recovery up and down par.  But, a ball long and hitting the path on the fly or first or second bounce running down into the junk is too much unpleasantness to extract, IMHO.
Title: Re: Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)
Post by: Richard_Mandell on August 22, 2014, 04:10:48 PM
RJ,

Thanks for the further thoughts on the cart path. I have such an aversion to cart path running diagonally across a hole that I would do as much as possible to change it.  It is interesting to hear that others may not be so bothered by it. Also gives me more pause to think regarding a shot hit over the green into the junk. 

On that thought, at what point do you think an a shot hit too far should be penalized as harshly as what could happen at Keller?  Again, I don't see much difference between hitting it over than if the green was fronted by a pond and someone hit it too short into the water.  Either way, there was either a mis-hit or mis-judgement and I would think there should be equal penalty (whatever that may be) whether short or long.  Do you think penalty for hitting too far should be less than hit too short?