Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Duncan Cheslett on October 27, 2013, 11:01:08 AM
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It was a great pleasure to welcome Ran Morrissett and Sean Arble to Reddish Vale earlier this year; we had a great day and both Ran and Sean were very enthusiastic about the course - and more especially with the potential for restoring the course to a former greatness which unfortunately no-one remembers. Ran's review of the course can be read here:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/reddish-vale-golf-club/
There have long been mutterings at the club about the need for tree clearance; some work has been done but unfortunately it always meets with opposition - particularly from certain older members. Ran's review however, has been met with pretty well universal approval even from the tree-hugging brigade. The well-argued analysis of an outsider seems to carry far more weight than the same views made over a pint in the clubhouse bar...
The club's Winter Programme has been anounced this weekend via the Pro's newsletter. Scroll down to 'Course News'
http://online.retailtribe.co.za/client/onlineeditor/pMailer.aspx?n=6664729&r=408
As you will see, Ran's suggestions have been adopted almost in their entirety and they form the basis of a plan of improvements for the next few years. Interestingly, Ran's visit was followed shortly afterwards by one from Brian Ward of 'The Top 100 Golf Courses of the World' website who made very similar recommendations.
I can't tell you how pleasing it is to see our membership embrace such radical changes. Some said it could never happen - but thanks to GCA it now is...
...hopefully!
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Duncan:
Interesting, and good to hear.
Questions: has the club had a consulting architect over the years? If so, has part of their message been to take down trees? If not, are you working with an architect to decide exactly what to clear, or just taking Ran's general suggestions and running with them?
P.S. I am not looking for consulting work here, at all.
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Good news, Duncan.
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The well-argued analysis of an outsider seems to carry far more weight than the same views made over a pint in the clubhouse bar...
Very glad to hear that those involved at RVGC have listened to Ran and the reviewer from Top100. Some of my (usually very limited) faith in golf club committees and memberships has been restored by your news. I wish every success with implementing the programme.
All the best
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Good Luck Duncan
RV was on my list of courses to check out when I travel over for the Walker Cup in 15 and now it will be on my short list!
Cheers
Ward
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Duncan:
Interesting, and good to hear.
Questions: has the club had a consulting architect over the years? If so, has part of their message been to take down trees? If not, are you working with an architect to decide exactly what to clear, or just taking Ran's general suggestions and running with them?
P.S. I am not looking for consulting work here, at all.
Tom,
I think our last consultant architect was James Braid, who spent a day here in 1932 remodelling a couple of holes. His fee was five guineas.
Sad to say, the budget for our next consultant architect will not be a great deal more than that!
Although proud custodians of a fine old and largely original MacKenzie course, as a club we have always only just about managed to make ends meet financially, with no reserves but correspondingly no debt. Like most members clubs of our ilk in the UK, we have muddled through with greens chairmen overseeing the head green keeper.
Having seen recently what has been achieved at Alwoodley and Moortown under the auspices of Ken Moodie, I am convinced that RV would benefit enormously from such professional advice. To me it is important that any changes are made with an eye to our bequest to future generations, rather than simply for the benefit and whims of today's members.
I don't know what a consultant architect might cost, but I supect it is way beyond the resources of a staunchly blue-collar club such as Reddish Vale...
...unless you have any ideas?
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I don't know what a consultant architect might cost, but I supect it is way beyond the resources of a staunchly blue-collar club such as Reddish Vale...
...unless you have any ideas?
I suspect you'll have three proposals from young architects who want to establish their credentials as "MacKenzie experts" within the next week.
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Duncan - I have just written about this somewhere else because I've seen a few examples lately of courses being presented with decent ideas and then taking them in exactly the wrong direction.
I think if structural changes to a course are going to be made, it is always wise to hold on to a consultant architect, even if that just means one yearly visit, one small report / set of notes and maybe one day marking a few things out. That can be achieved very cheaply with someone local who you trust to guide the course along with the head green keeper over a number of years.
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I don't know what a consultant architect might cost, but I supect it is way beyond the resources of a staunchly blue-collar club such as Reddish Vale...
...unless you have any ideas?
I suspect you'll have three proposals from young architects who want to establish their credentials as "MacKenzie experts" within the next week.
Actually, now that Tom mentions it, I could suggest two that live just down the road from Reddish Vale, are early in their careers and have some MacKenzie link... They might not be what you are looking for but I reckon their price might suit and it could be worth at least seeking them out for an initial discussion:
Andy Watson (http://www.andywatsongolfdesign.co.uk) is working on Sand Moor at present renovating the bunkers... He did some work previously for Ken Moodie...
Nick Norton is based at Cavendish and qualified through the EIGCA diploma course with me... He has a particular hatred of superfluous trees...
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Duncan - best of luck with the project.
As a club member, I was in a similar position a few years ago. We pulled quite a few trees without the input of an architect and the course improved signifciantly. However, if I were to do it over again, I would have pushed harder for approval to spend a bit of money to get advice on what trees to pull. We made a couple of mistakes I suspect would have been prevented by spending a little bit of money.
If, however, the choice is between not doing the project at all or moving forward in house - I say go for it!
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... greens chairmen overseeing the head green keeper.
...
DUNCANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!
;)
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Thanks for all the advice and particular thanks for the kind offers of free help from some very prominent architects. You know who you are and I will be in touch directly.
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Good luck with this Duncan.
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Duncan-
Has Reddish Vale ever considered Overseas Memberships? I couldn't find anything on the website butI would think there might be interest in an under the radar MacKenzie course that is committed to improving.
Buck
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Duncan-
Has Reddish Vale ever considered Overseas Memberships? I couldn't find anything on the website butI would think there might be interest in an under the radar MacKenzie course that is committed to improving.
Buck
Are you looking to escape the Minnesota winter already, Buck?
In all seriousness, I've let it be known to my company that I'd be happy to relocate internationally if possible and if needed. Unfortunately, my company no longer has a presence in my two desired locations for golf--the UK and Australia. Obviously my primary interest in relocating would be for golf.
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Duncan-
Has Reddish Vale ever considered Overseas Memberships? I couldn't find anything on the website butI would think there might be interest in an under the radar MacKenzie course that is committed to improving.
Buck
An intriguing idea, and one which I am sure has not occurred to anyone at Reddish Vale or indeed, any other 'mainstream' English inland club.
I have always kind of assumed that only historic links courses such as Royal Dornoch or American-style country clubs near London had Overseas Memberships. However, on thinking about it we have a lot to offer;
1. A genuine under the radar MacKenzie gem in superb condition and playable all year round.
2. We are within the Greater Manchester area, the UK's second most important industrial and commercial centre. Tens of thousands of overseas visitors must regularly spend time in Manchester every year on business or on secondment.
3. Only 15 minutes from Manchester International Airport, after Heathrow the UK's most important gateway - and a far more attractive one! To illustrate how close we are, the aerial photos on the club website we taken by a club member as his holiday flight came into land!
I could go on...
How do Overseas Memberships work? A flat fee of say £100pa for unlimited golf for overseas residents? How to stop regular overseas visitors to the area taking the piss and playing every week?
There is nothing to stop overseas residents from becoming Associate Members: £65 pa and then £15 per round (or £120 for a bundle of 10 rounds)
http://rvgc.co.uk/Associate-membership.pdf
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Duncan,
Happy to make a visit to Reddish Vale and make a few suggestions. Ran has a good eye for course improvements.
From a designer point of view - the bunkers look tired and worn out. I would bring back the Mackenzie style camouflaged craggy shaped bunkers possibly relocate a few to bring the course to 21st century standards. Give me 20 white spray paint canisters and will recreate the outlines.
Some of the mowing and cutting lines could be adjusted. I would be interested to see if there were photos of the holes in the early days to have a better idea of what it was like originally as well as a course boundary to see if there can be more elbow space as some of the holes are a bit tight together in spaces - future H+S issues.
Cheers
Ben
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Duncan
At Cruden Bay it i san annual fixture which supposedly pays for 12 annual rounds but they are not keen to enforce that too stringently.
As i pointed out earlier Walker Cup may bring some visitors to the area who would be attracted to such an arrangement
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From a designer point of view - the bunkers look tired and worn out. I would bring back the Mackenzie style camouflaged craggy shaped bunkers possibly relocate a few to bring the course to 21st century standards. Give me 20 white spray paint canisters and will recreate the outlines.
Ben,
Interesting that you mention the bunkers; Ran didn't make a big deal about these apart from on the superbly bunkered 10th hole. Reddish Vale isn't a 'bunker' golf course - only 3 or 4 holes have fairway bunkers at all and these are still well placed for the typical player although you wouldn't be bothered by any of them! There is so much topographical interest on the course that more fairway bunkers would probably be superfluous. On the whole bunkering is restricted to around the greens - and even then not all of them.
The bigest problem our bunkers give us is that of drainage. They nearly all flood in heavy rain and for much of the year the sand is compacted hard-pan. Nipping the ball off clean with a lob-wedge is often the only way to play them.
We would dearly love to embark on a dramatic bunker renovation program over a couple of winters but finances dictate a much slower pace. The best we can realistically hope to accomplish given the tree work that we have made our priority is to rebuld 2 or 3 bunkers per year over the next 10 years or so. This year our attentions are focussed on just one, below the green on the short steep uphill 9th, which is so bad that it is designated GUR more often than not.
All talk I have been party to at the club regarding the bunkers has concentrated solely on the practical and technical problems of drainage together with building up the back of certain bunkers to prevent water running in from further uphill. The aesthetics are never really mentioned. It was an eye-opener for me to play with Ken Moodie at Sutton Coldfield a few weeks ago and to share his thoughts about what he would do with every bunker on the course given the chance! Everyday golfers do not really think this way...
Perhaps I should just entice you and Ken along for a round!
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Duncan
Is the course bunkering close to the original map? If I recall, Dr Mac had ongoing issues in getting RV built so I wonder if much of what he wanted was never built?
Ciao
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Duncan
Is the course bunkering close to the original map? If I recall, Dr Mac had ongoing issues in getting RV built so I wonder if much of what he wanted was never built?
Ciao
Unfortunately there is no surviving map.or plan. All we have is a detailed description of the course in a newspaper article of 1913 which matches very closely today's course. A follow-up article by the same writer six months later suggests that certain changes are planned following a return visit by MacKenzie the previous week. These changes were clearly implemented as with the exception of Braid's 16th they close the gaps between the first attempt and the course we know today.
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Duncan
Is the course bunkering close to the original map? If I recall, Dr Mac had ongoing issues in getting RV built so I wonder if much of what he wanted was never built?
Ciao
Unfortunately there is no surviving map.or plan. All we have is a detailed description of the course in a newspaper article of 1913 which matches very closely today's course. A follow-up article by the same writer six months later suggests that certain changes are planned following a return visit by MacKenzie the previous week. These changes were clearly implemented as with the exception of Braid's 16th they close the gaps between the first attempt and the course we know today.
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TIMBAAAAHHH!!!
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/063_zps0f9cb40f.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/dantovey/media/063_zps0f9cb40f.jpg.html)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/064_zps1e88fd51.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/dantovey/media/064_zps1e88fd51.jpg.html)
;D ;D ;D
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Duncan,
Any more due to come down?
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Duncan,
Any more due to come down?
Oh yes!
About six came down today, and the guys are on tree-felling all month.
Hopefully by the end of the week Sean will be able to see the green and even the river from the sixth tee!
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/6thatReddishVale.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/dantovey/media/6thatReddishVale.jpg.html)
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What a difference a year makes.
Before...
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/ReddishVale6par32_zps9d347a98.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/dantovey/media/ReddishVale6par32_zps9d347a98.jpg.html)
After...
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/6thHole_zpsb856a034.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/dantovey/media/6thHole_zpsb856a034.jpg.html)
Loads more good work is going on this winter. The course has never looked better in living memory.
We're still doing all the work in house without an architect. The Pro, a big MacKenzie enthusiast, has had a lot of input into any changes, including the complete remodelling of the 4th hole for Health and Safety reasons. Here is a link to the Pro's newsletter explaining the changes.
http://email.foremostgolf.com/q/1HwRUI8ONjBKtSvWQVujp/wv
This is how the hole looked previously
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/ReddishVale42_zps3800d42c.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/dantovey/media/ReddishVale42_zps3800d42c.jpg.html)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/ReddishVale4greenfromfront2_zps15f02784.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/dantovey/media/ReddishVale4greenfromfront2_zps15f02784.jpg.html)
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What a difference a year makes.
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/6thHole_zpsb856a034.jpg)
Looks good Duncan.
Is there any plan to remove some trees or clear out some of the understory from the trees behind the green?
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Great stuff, Duncan.
My question is the same as that of Neil.
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Looks good Duncan.
Is there any plan to remove some trees or clear out some of the understory from the trees behind the green?
The understory, yes. A group of mainly senior members have recently begun a weekly working party to undertake the kind of time consuming cosmetic work on the course that the greens staff have difficulty keeping on top of. The scrub under those trees is on their list. A lot of it is Himalayan Balsam AKA the "Reddish Azalea"!
The trees, no. They are not in play and are old beeches, oaks, and sycamores which have been there as long as the course has. We have probably 5,000 trees that should be felled before these ones!
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Duncan
I think the holes look much better for the changes, albeit they may be exaggerated slightly by camera angle.
Have the changes brought benefits to your club in the form of new members, membership retention or visitor income?
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Have the changes brought benefits to your club in the form of new members, membership retention or visitor income?
Too early to tell.
However, membership is up by 30 odd this year, and green fee income up by 10%. Anecdotal evidence suggests that we are being talked about very favourably locally.
All in all, we seem to be heading in the right direction.
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Have the changes brought benefits to your club in the form of new members, membership retention or visitor income?
Too early to tell.
However, membership is up by 30 odd this year, and green fee income up by 10%. Anecdotal evidence suggests that we are being talked about very favourably locally.
All in all, we seem to be heading in the right direction.
Let's just hope your work encourages some other local venues to follow suit, although from your perspective, not too much I suppose!
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Have the changes brought benefits to your club in the form of new members, membership retention or visitor income?
Too early to tell.
However, membership is up by 30 odd this year, and green fee income up by 10%. Anecdotal evidence suggests that we are being talked about very favourably locally.
All in all, we seem to be heading in the right direction.
Could be that Mackenzie thing!
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Could be that Mackenzie thing!
99% of UK golfers have never heard of MacKenzie. They have however, heard of Augusta, and when the connection is pointed out to them they become interested. Very interested.
The Pro and I are working on a new club website. He spent many years as assistant at Moortown and is a fellow Mac nut. You can be sure that we will be working the "MacKenzie thing" assiduously!