Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bryan Izatt on October 22, 2013, 12:52:24 PM
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After a glorious, warm, windless and sunny day at Cruden Bay, September 24, 2013 dawned dark, dank, wet and windy - real Scottish golf weather. I awoke questioning my sanity for having booked a round at Trump International Golf Links Scotland (TIGLS) at a not so modest £195. But, here I was, on my annual Scottish golf pilgrimage with a chance to do my one and done with the greatest golf course in the world, so what to do but carry on.
After a short drive up the A90 from Aberdeen past Balmedie it was easy to find the TIGLS entrance, marked as it is by signage and a very large Rolex type clock tower. The meandering entrance driveway take you through pastoral land past the luxury estate accommodations of MacLeod House and to the parking lot and clubhouse. The clubhouse is a modest modern building. There was also a tent pavilion, temporarily, I assume, for events.
I arrived expecting service to be over the top and in your face in an American CCFAD style such as I experienced at Streamsong last year. But, service was blessedly low key in a reserved Scottish way - one guy at a bag drop, two people in the shop and a starter. It suited me just fine, although I wonder if other golf tourists paying the full freight might not expect more "service".
As it stands now, the parking lot is surrounded on one side by club house and pavilion,
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7348/10157447466_ef78d213fc_o.jpg)
the driving range,
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3825/10157265574_a9d8da0944_o.jpg)
and, a truly outstanding short game area.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5466/10157498463_a5f897a1c4_o.jpg)
The putting green is on the path to the first tee, past the clubhouse and the pavilion.
Being early for my tee time, I warmed up on the short game area and then went to the driving range. But in the short walk, the fog rolled in,
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3680/10157356325_3672a6cd09_o.jpg)
and the driving range was impenetrable. But, the clock was nice at 10 minutes to noon. Was I going to get fogged out of my £195 golf experience.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7308/10157499993_5719916e2f_o.jpg)
Happily by my 12:15 p.m. start time the fog had largely blown out although it was still a murky, misty day, not ideal conditions for picture taking, but what the heck, nae wind nae rain, nae golf. The starter was quite pleasant and allowed that the wind this day was atypical, coming out of the northeast and blowing down the first four holes. It was the opposite of what Ran described in his write-up of the course. Here is an aerial of the layout of the course.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/10424752543_f590ed7e54_o.jpg)
Hole by hole account to follow.
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Can't wait for what's to follow Bryan...really looking forward to it. Thanks!
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Some general thoughts on the course before the hole-by-hole look.
What is the conditioning like? I had heard both positive and negative feedback before going. In my opinion, the conditioning was excellent. There are a few random areas where there are obvious patches in the fairway turf, but these really don't detract from the playability. The fairways were firm. The greens sounded like new greens should - like a table top when the ball lands on them. The turf was quite good everywhere. It's probably the best conditioned course I've seen in Scotland. The one fly in the ointment is that most of the fairways are rye grass at the moment, and although it provides a fine playing surface, it is not fescue, and therefore is not like a true Scottish links course should be. Also the green surrounds are fescue and the difference in look and playability between the surrounds and fairways is clearly evident.
Are the playing corridors as narrow as they look in pictures? No, for the most part, the fairways are amply wide, although if the winds get up and are across the course, no width is probably sufficient, especially from the more elevated tees. There are, however, a fair number of what look, on one playing, to be fairly daunting carries from elevated tees to narrow looking fairways. I suspect that, for the most part, if you are playing from the proper tees, the carries are quite doable and the landing areas are suitably wide.
Is the rough as penal as has been reported? Simple answer - yes. I saw some areas where they appear to be trying to cut back some of the marram grass, but I'd guess they can't do too much of that for fear of destabilizing the dunes. Any balls (with one exception) that I hit off the fairway into the marram grass were lost. This was unlike Cruden Bay and North Berwick where I played before and after TIGLS. Having the possibility of hitting a recovery shot from the rough is much preferred over having to hit a provisional and taking a lost ball penalty.
Are there too many bunkers? Sure, on some holes - 4 and 18 come to mind. A little restraint would have been better in my opinion. Strangely, given the plethora of bunkers, I was not one the whole day.
What about the multitude of tees and walking paths connecting them? There sure are a lot of tees and they are at many different elevations and angles on every hole. But, they are generally visually isolated from each other. Because of the multiple angles, it was necessary to have paths going to and from each one. They chose to make many of them artistically flowing in nature and beautifully landscaped in rye grass. They look quite unlike green to tee paths I have seen anywhere else, and most certainly unlike any other links courses that I've seen. One of the byproducts of the tee arrangement is that there needs to be sign posts on every hole to give directions to each tee block.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5469/10157740806_5742acde7e_o.jpg)
Is TIGLS the greatest course in the world? Surely not today and maybe never. There are a few pedestrian holes. The greens I thought, as a group, were going to be fun and challenging for any who play there. They are anything but pedestrian. The first three par 3's are all excellent and world class. The last one is good but not great, being somewhat along the lines of the 12th at Augusta with an angled green, but no creek. There is the modern requisite short par 4 that is likely drivable by almost all if you are on the proper tees. The course in total is big, bold and brash. Most links courses that I prefer are small, subtle and reserved. To me TIGLS is clearly engineered into the dunescape unlike its older links neighbours in Scotland. That, to me, is somewhat jarring. Perhaps it will age in to a more natural look. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that somebody said TIGLS was in the dunes, but not of the dunes. That's a pretty neat summary. Given the scale of the dunes, I'm not quite sure how they could have made the course part of the dunes. Maybe in the end, it looks like a modern course that just happens to be surrounded by very large dunes. It is undeniably pretty to look at, if you like large, wild dunes around your holes. All-in-all, a very good golf course, but not at the level of great yet. Let's see how it settles in. Sadly, I doubt I'll play it again; it's too price prohibitive and if I'm in Scotland there are a bunch of links courses that I love and are way more affordable.
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Now, on to the first hole. I played the white tees. The course yardages, ratings and slopes for the furthest back Black tees and the White tees I played are 7428/77.4/149 and 6329/72.3/133 for a par of 72.
Hole 1
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/10433581474_15eb9bf0e9_o.jpg)
This hole played downwind, which is apparently not the norm. The starter suggested a good drive and then lay up short of the bunkers left up near the green. That may have been appropriate into the wind, but downwind it was easy to carry the fairway bunkers with the second shot.
From the tee, you can see that the fairway narrows down near where a good drive is likely to land. There is a bit of a bail out area to the right, but anywhere off the fairway is dead in the long grass. Although it is an easy opening hole with a generous landing area, you don't want to mess it up with a lost ball in the marram grass. Best to get in a good warm up on the range.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2874/10157454386_30e48d562b_o.jpg)
From the fairway, the three pots to the left get your attention, but missing right in the gunch would be better bargain. For those tempted to have a go at the green, and it is certainly possible, it is less likely given the green is benched above the fairway. Running it up is a possibility but it plays longer than the yardage due to the elevation of the green.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3752/10157456416_993712ae43_o.jpg)
From closer in to the green on the right side of the fairway, you can see the greenside bunkers and the bumpy nature of the land that will both make a run up second shot to the green more problematic. This picture also illustrates the difference in the grassing of the fairway and the green surrounds.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2850/10157273984_b26b52cf2a_o.jpg)
Another look at the green from over the fairway bunker.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2865/10157274364_7c9d8854ca_o.jpg)
The green from the left side. There is some pretty strong contouring in the almost all the green. If they stimp the greens above 10, they will be an adventure. Notice that there is a strip of resodded green in the foreground. It did not affect play.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7415/10157363965_5aeb3fb5ca_o.jpg)
Looking back down the hole from behind the green you can see the strong contours of the green. Also noticeable are the ridges and hollows in the back surrounds. Hawtree has used these ridges and hollows in the closely mown surrounds of many of the greens - perhaps even overused them.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7318/10157272864_e32b85e275_o.jpg)
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Thanks for doing this!!!!! Will be interested in seeing the rest of the pictures.
IMHO, I love the first hole. I don't think it could have been designed much better. I love the fall-off on the right side of the fairway where it pinches. The green is contoured well, probably to help toughen the hole up a little (other than wind). Looks like an interesting par 4.5 hole.
Interesting that you say that the summary of the course is that it is in the dunes, not of the dunes. Are there parts where the course could actually be part of the dunes? Most of the dunes are way too big to be part of them.
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Matthew,
Re the dunes, I agree that it would have been difficult to make the course part of the dunes because of their scale. It did raise a question in my mind about the fitness of the site for a golf course. Most of the commentary I have read has basically said the the site was just crying out to have a golf course built there. But, if the dunes are too massive to be incorporated into the course, then are they not just window dressing along the sides and behind the holes. The dunes do make for a beautiful setting, but the course is almost divorced from them, apart from the placement of the tees. Food for thought, and I may be alone in this thought.
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Hole 2
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7408/10433745813_672e2ffca5_o.jpg)
The 2nd hole was one of the holes that left me uninspired and which therefore detracts from the "greatness" of the course in my opinion. It reminded me of the 3rd and 12th at Pacific Dunes, where there was some dead land that needed to be crossed to reach more interesting topography. The holes at PD were saved by excellent greens sites. The land here at the 2nd at TIGLS is generally flat with some man made contouring in the fairway. The green is not particularly inspiring.
From the tee, the question asked of the golfer is whether to lay up short of the burn or to try to fly it. At my length, it was a no-brainer, even with a following wind. It's just a little too far to carry, and there doesn't appear to be much advantage to justify the risk. A second shot from 140 yards is just as appealing as one from 70 yards. So, lay up it was, over to the right by the second bridge.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5482/10157502563_26341ffc06_o.jpg)
You'll notice the greenkeeper cutting the grass on the bank of the burn with a fly-mo, in the rain. He was also hand scissoring the edges. Maintenance was proceeding apace despite the weather and there certainly seemed to be attention to detail.
From the left side of the fairway short of the burn, the approach to the green is a short iron to an open green.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2858/10157270824_03e1c13914_o.jpg)
From the right side closer in to the green you can see that there are two pots lurking, but they seem out of play for most with a short iron second shot in hand. The picture also shows the contouring of the approaches to the green hat would complicate a running shot to the green, but then I'd imagine that the vast majority of players would be flying it into this green since it's a pretty big target and generally plays into the wind. If you look at the back and left of the green you can also see some of the ridges and hollows that Hawtree has used quite a lot in the surrounds.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7331/10157451886_387736f62d_o.jpg)
Looking back from behind the green some more of the ridges and hollows in the surrounds are evident. This green sits more on the ground than many of the greens, although the "ground" was most likely created in the construction of the course. The green is also one of the less undulating ones on the course.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7329/10157503073_80f2f9e482_o.jpg)
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Bryan,
good to see some recent photos of the course. It is also good to hear that it is playing more like a links despite the ryegrass which I think they will have difficulty eradicating but if it plays fast & firm then the visuals though jarring are secondary. The thick rough is a problem almost all new courses have (Castle Stuart is the only new course I have seen without it) but I would imagine they will get on top of it given time.
I look forward to seeing the rest of the tour.
Jon
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Matthew,
Re the dunes, I agree that it would have been difficult to make the course part of the dunes because of their scale. It did raise a question in my mind about the fitness of the site for a golf course. Most of the commentary I have read has basically said the the site was just crying out to have a golf course built there. But, if the dunes are too massive to be incorporated into the course, then are they not just window dressing along the sides and behind the holes. The dunes do make for a beautiful setting, but the course is almost divorced from them, apart from the placement of the tees. Food for thought, and I may be alone in this thought.
Rest assured Bryan, you are not alone in your assessment. Brian E posted a comment from someones blog on the other Balmedie thread and it said something similar. That said, expect to get some abuse from the Trump cheerleaders.
Niall
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Great stuff, Bryan. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to hitchhike on this thread, as I played the course for the 1st time 10 days ago, and I can use your fine camera work to both remember each hole and chime in with my thoughts from time to time.
Firstly, I agree with your initial posts regarding the pleasantly surprising but still very professional low-key approach of the staff and the fact that the course is in amazingly well-maintained shape given its youth and magnitude. I also played the white tees and in the same wind (1-2 clubs down-wind on holes 1-4). All that was different is that my weather was better (almost spectacular) and my price lower (I was playing on "Senior's Day"--an attempt by TIGLS (hereinafter refred to as "Tiggles") to give something back to the wider community. I paid £49 for the round, free coffee on arrival, free range balls, very nice cup of soup delivered by cart to the 10th tee, free yardage book and an incredibly blingy Tiggles Bag Tag. Thank you again Thomas Dai for alerting me to this opportunity!
As for the course, I agree with your observations on 1 and 2, particularly the blandness of the 2nd green. 1 is definitely reachable in two from the whites. I was 190 or so after my drive down the right, but lying on a refreshingly but incredibly difficult for the second shot of the day linksy downhill lie. I tried to hit a shot well beyond my 2nd shot of the day capabilities and capped the hole by missing my 10ft. putt for a bogey. Interesting but reasonable drive, cool 2nd shot cross bunkers to the right and excellent green. 2** on the Rhicelin Scale. Like you I played my drive on #2 short of the bridge on the right, hit a 9-iron to 15 feet and 3-putted (I don't do "bland" well). Nil * That being said, if I ever play the course again (and I will if I get the £49 offer again next year), I'll give the 210 carry over the burn to the left a go and see if I can hit my 2nd closer...
One final general comment. Yes, the walking paths are lovely, but they are far too long. I would guestimate that the average walk from green to tee on the course was well over 100 yards/hole. That being said, I could have traded ~500 yards of walk for 500 yards of course if I had played the blue or golf tees, which I probably will do the next time. As for the black tees.....this is where "Course meet Dunes, Dunes meet Course" occurs. Playing them would add another 500 yards of course but also trade 500 yards of walking forward for 500 yards of walking backwards and uphill. I'd love to see the Lady Boy tour pros play this course from the Blacks carrying their own bag.....
Keep up the good work, Bryan!
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Niall,
Just read the story in the other thread and it was very similar to my feelings, well, absent staying in MacLeod House and eating in the clubhouse and the bleeding hands. An included breakfast at the Holiday Inn Express and a very nice Indian dinner in Aberdeen after playing was good for me.
Rich,
Feel free to jump on board, but the pace will be leisurely - no 2.5 hour round here.
Trump was advertising their special deals on the radio station that I was listening to when I left the course - a little annoying after paying the full freight. Stick it to the golf tourists, I guess. At £49 I'd certainly play again, although it would still be a tough choice for us travelers given the other more traditional and historical links available in Scotland.
You didn't throw away the blingy bag tag thingy? ;D ;)
If you play the 2nd again next year, don't forget to check the yardage book again for the carry - it's 223 according to my book and rapidly extending to 261 by the middle of the fairway. What reward did you see with carrying the burn? OK, the green was bland, but it lay on the land more than most of the others. Isn't it heresy around here to prefer trumped up greens over lay of the land greens? ;)
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As I said on another thread, for those that are not a fan of Trumps Clubhouse (me !), the nearby http://thecockandbull.co.uk/ is a great alternative.
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As I said on another thread, for those that are not a fan of Trumps Clubhouse (me !), the nearby http://thecockandbull.co.uk/ is a great alternative.
You are dead right, Brian. I stayed at the C&B for a night between rounds at Cruden Bay in September, and the whole experience was first class.
Rich
PS-and, of course, you can't stay at Trump's Clubhouse, as there is no accomodation. He has renovated the existing manor house as a mega£££ B&B but haven't been there yet....
rfg
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Bryan,
Nice photo tour and commentary.
What's the second play green fee ?
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Thank you again Thomas Dai for alerting me to this opportunity!
Rich, Glad to have been of help. £49/18-holes etc. Now that's more like it. BTW "Tiggles" is brilliant. Would I be correct in assuming that there was no free miniature of Glenfiddich given out with the free coffee, free range balls, free on-course soup, free yardage book and free blingy Tiggles Bag Tag? We need to see a photo of the blingy bag tag just to confirm whether or not it is shaped like a toupee!
Looking forward to the rest of your write-up.
All the best
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Patrick,
They don't advertise a second play rate and I didn't inquire, £195 was enough. Anything more would just be more painful.
Thomas,
The blingy bag tag thingy was metal with the Trump crest on it. It weighed too much, so mine got turfed. And, it didn't seem worthy of a picture. Maybe Rhic or someone else has a picture for you.
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If 2 is one of the more pedestrian holes, this must be a pretty good course. The burn seems to make for an interesting decision off the tee on the right day.
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Hole 3
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5546/10449179293_a828972d6b_o.jpg)
The 3rd hole is the first of a set of four very good par 3's. It takes you down and as close to the sea as you're going to get One is left wondering if winter storms might do significant damage or erosion to the hole given how low and close to the sea it is.
From the White tee, there is some view of the sea to the left. Contrary to most stories, I didn't see many views of the sea from other White tees on the course. I presume the views are better on most holes the further back the tee blocks are.
Although of moderate length, the push up green provides a challenging target if there is any wind. From the tee a cavernous bunker lurks hard by the right edge of the green and the burn snakes up the left side. It doesn't look like there is much room to miss left, although there is some.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7347/10157266784_d39979ff06_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/10157357425_67521e84d1_o.jpg)
From short of the green you can see the significant contouring of the approaches. If you should come up short, as I did, there are some interesting recovery options.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7460/10157358545_b961bdbaaf_o.jpg)
From up above the right side bunker you can get a good view of the hole's proximity to the sea.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2873/10157449506_dae6234352_o.jpg)
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Very nice thread so far Bryan, but this picture... Typical Hawtree overshaping a green complex so that it bears no relationship to its surrounds. The whole image makes it appear as if some fantastic ground was sacrificed to build a pre-determined concept.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/10157357425_67521e84d1_o.jpg)
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Mark,
I can't argue with your point. All the holes look like they were engineered onto the site. There isn't a hole I can think of where you would come away saying that a hole or feature was just lying there in the natural state waiting to be uncovered. I don't think the site actually lent itself to that kind of "natural" golf course. The dunescape is too large and too abrupt in my opinion. I think the question with TIGLS is whether the course that Hawtree/Trump engineered onto the mammoth wild and wooly dunescape is a good or great course. I think most agree so far that it is a good to great course. But, natural it isn't, again, in my opinion.
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Mark,
Interesting observation. It's pretty much what I thought when I saw Bryan's pictures of the 2nd green surrounds. Over-worked, over-complex contours which simply don't fit the land.
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Hole 4
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7441/10449025275_25a4e284c9_o.jpg)
From the proper tees and playing down wind, the 4th hole seems like it should be a reachable par 5 for many. In Ran's course review he speaks highly of this hole and the routing of the first four holes into the wind. I'm not sure that there is a prevailing wind, but it was evident in my one play that downwind it plays much differently than into the wind as Ran experienced.
The fly in the ointment to reaching the green in two is that the drive seems to me to be extraordinarily narrow (relative to the rest of the course) off the tee and significantly uphill at the end. If I were to play again, I think I would opt to lay up off the tee and in front of the bunkers. The risks of the hole are for the bold and straight.
From the tee there appears to be danger from high marram grass on the bank to the left and a penalty stroke lateral hazard on the right. I thought a cut off the left bank would work for the tee shot. Well, it didn't cut enough and was lost probably no more than 10 yards left of the fairway.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7378/10357323494_3b2838b012_o.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/10357324426_24a7f997fc_o.jpg)
From the right side of the fairway you can see both the threatening lateral hazard and the daunting shot if you try to have a go at the green. Approaching from the right side seems like the right idea if you're going to have a go. The question is, can you carry the bunker diarrhea. This hole and the 18th seem to have an oversupply of bunkers to the point where they look a bit silly. Are 11 bunkers really necessary here?
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/10357514493_99ca49608f_o.jpg)
From just short and right (following a weak fade second shot) you are left with a blind uphill flip shot over one of the many bunkers.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3710/10357323705_6806a181b7_o.jpg)
From just short of the green you can see the flip shot wasn't quite enough. In dryer conditions I would imagine that shots might roll back down the hill. The contours of the green are evident as it receded 48 yards into the distance. The contours on the green are, no doubt, one of the major defenses of a relatively short par 5.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/10357325306_589712c447_o.jpg)
Zoomed in from behind the green you can see fairway snaking up between the hazard and the dune bank. You can also see that the green is really deep and has three tiers to it. I dropped a ball at the back to try the 100 foot putt to the front. It's hard. Coming up from the front to a back pin would be harder still, I would think.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3703/10357323626_97b5ac0154_o.jpg)
With a wider angle look from behind the green there is a better view of the expansive nature of the green and the three tiers. Also you can see that there are run off areas on the sides and back. This is consistent design characteristic on most if not all the greens.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3737/10357324706_8843ea1398_o.jpg)
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Mark Ferguson & Mark Pearce,
Given the opposition to the project, the scrutiny that accompanied it and environmental restrictions, how would you have designed the course ?
Specifically, How would you have located the greens and blended them in with the surrounds such that the unnatural or manufactured look you perceive, wouldn't exist ?
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I wondered how long it would be, until the usual suspect tried to move this thread away from its original purpose ..... sigh !
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I wondered how long it would be, until the usual suspect tried to move this thread away from its original purpose ..... sigh !
Brian,
How convenient of you to overlook Mark F's and Mark P's attempts to move the thread away from it's original purpose.
Could you remind us, what was the original purpose of this thread and how do Mark F's and Mark O's comments differ from mine ?
Or, are you just trying to move this thread away from it's original purpose ?
Lastly, you must have missed my initial reply on this thread, which certainly was in keeping with the original purpose, especially in contrast to Mark F's and Mark P's replies.
Or are you just going to whine about anything positive said about the course and tout everything negative, as you always seem to do ?
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Brian, Mark, Mark and others,
Let's not engage with Patrick on this topic in this thread. It will only go downhill. If he and you want to debate environmental restrictions and other ways to design the course, let him start his own thread and you can debate it there. Let's stick to the course as it's presented now and its merits or shortcomings.
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Bryan,
I complimented you on your photos and commentary, but, how is my question to the two Mark's diversionary.
They complained about the unnatural or manufactured look of the green surrounds, so I asked them how they would have avoided that "look" given the constraints on the site.
It remains a valid question.
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Very nice thread so far Bryan, but this picture... Typical Hawtree overshaping a green complex so that it bears no relationship to its surrounds. The whole image makes it appear as if some fantastic ground was sacrificed to build a pre-determined concept.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/10157357425_67521e84d1_o.jpg)
Mark,
It's funny.
I was looking at this picture of hole #3 last night and I was admiring the shaping and smaller contours around the green.
Looks like a lot of short game options, and it's hard for e to understand why you think the many and random bumps and rolls are out of place in the middle of a dunnescape?
Wish we had a bit more greenside shaping like this.
That said, the pictures of #4 make me dizzy and make me wonder why one would clutter the hole up with 11 unattractive pot bunkers in such a stunning dunescape so loaded with beautiful natural features including an attractive wetland feature, when one-or two bunkers would have achieved the same strategy purpose.
or, even better
Seems to me, the wetland side, where there's an attractively sized fairway area,could have been made the preferred approach angle, by simply tilting the green from left to right, and making playing safe and left its own subtle penalty, and eliminated the need for any centerline bunkers on this particular hole.
That said, I'm clearly a moron, as I haven't been there.
Beautiful pictures Bryan
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There isn't a hole I can think of where you would come away saying that a hole or feature was just lying there in the natural state waiting to be uncovered. I don't think the site actually lent itself to that kind of "natural" golf course. The dunescape is too large and too abrupt in my opinion.
Thanks Bryan, that's an interesting viewpoint. Enniscrone has some very large dunes with a similar - although not quite as abrupt- problem with overshaped green complexes. Theirs are probably just on the right side of being okay. Narin and Portnoo is another course with some very modern, well-shaped greens complexes, but I didn't mind them at all, even if they don't really "fit" in with the otherwise ancient feel of the course.
Mark,
Interesting observation. It's pretty much what I thought when I saw Bryan's pictures of the 2nd green surrounds. Over-worked, over-complex contours which simply don't fit the land.
Mark,
It just looks like some of his work at Lahinch, like the 6th green complex, which is quite good in a way, but is overdone, to the ultimate detriment of the hole.
How convenient of you to overlook Mark F's and Mark P's attempts to move the thread away from it's original purpose.
Could you remind us, what was the original purpose of this thread and how do Mark F's and Mark O's comments differ from mine?
Patrick,
You are prescribing an ulterior motive to me that doesn't exist. You should know that if I am going to say something, I will, and damn the consequences. Bryan's thread is an excellent photo tour - I am merely commenting on my impression from those images like I would of any other tour. You, on the other hand, believe anyone that says something negative about the course does so because of the persona of the developer. He is fair game for this type of comment if this was the type of course he wanted.
I was in Scotland late last year and probably would have played Trump Scotland if it had been open, even if opening my wallet to hand over £195 goes against everything I would normally do. If I had played it and liked it, I would have said so. If I hated it, I would have sent him a personal email with my thoughts. :)
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(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/10157357425_67521e84d1_o.jpg)
I was looking at this picture of hole #3 last night and I was admiring the shaping and smaller contours around the green.
Looks like a lot of short game options, and it's hard for e to understand why you think the many and random bumps and rolls are out of place in the middle of a dunescape?
Jeff,
It's probably one of those beauty is in the eye of the beholder situations. I agree that it does look like there might be some fun short game options, but the whole thing just doesn't look right to my eye. I don't like the right hand bunker at all, it's completely out of place and just weird to me eye.
To me it kind of looks like they just made a massive cut to scythe a dune away where the green is, then had to recreate everything to make the hole look good and have some short game interest, but they just overdid it and created from a preconceived notion, not trying to fit in with the surroundings.
That said, the pictures of #4 make me dizzy and make me wonder why one would clutter the hole up with 11 unattractive pot bunkers in such a stunning dunescape so loaded with beautiful natural features including an attractive wetland feature, when one-or two bunkers would have achieved the same strategy purpose.
or, even better
Seems to me, the wetland side, where there's an attractively sized fairway area,could have been made the preferred approach angle, by simply tilting the green from left to right, and making playing safe and left its own subtle penalty, and eliminated the need for any centerline bunkers on this particular hole.
I was thinking almost exactly the same thing. I too wonder why the right hand side of the fairway doesn't have a green oriented to favour an approach from near the burn/wetland. Maybe Bryan or Rich might chime in with a thought?
Beautiful pictures Bryan
Indeed. A fabulous effort on what looks a dreary day.
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Can I thank the original poster for taking to post the pictures and commentary.
Reading as I have about this course, it's bizarre but for the wrong reasons I am going to have to play "tiggles"...
Like everyone else I can see that the raw material in terms of the site is unquestionably there.
Thanks again.
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Bryan
1. I never throw away my blingy bag thingies! My Tiggles blingy thingy now resides proudly on my "golf mess" table in my "office" next to my Pebble Beach, Castle Stuart, 1990 Sawgrass Country Club Men's Championship and FOB (Friends of Barney) blingies, each of which I lift in separate 25 reps of "golf elbow" physiotherapy inbetween GCA.com posts.
2. As for holes 3 and 4. Three is a man-sized par-3 from the blacks, with a nice Scylla (bunker right) and Charybdis (hollow left) touch to it. When I played it, the white tees were on the right (seems they have two white tees on this hole), and from there it was a really nice downwind 8 iron which I (luckily) hit a teeny bit fat, raising a puff of sand as it landed just over the RH bunker, settling down 8 feet pin high to the right. One of my playing partners ended up in the hollow to the left but got up and down with a canny bump and run. Standing on the green and looking backwards to the right, the views of the sands and the North Sea were as good as any course in Scotland (including Dornoch!). Interestingly, the sliver of blue to the left of the green (from the tee) is in fact a tidal burn which is out of play on this hole but very much so on the next. I missed my birdie putt (of course), but I still give the hole 2**.
3. And yes, Mark F, the green looks like almost nothing at nearby Royal Aberdeen (or Cruden Bay or Dornoch or name your auld course....) but it does have a bit of Murcar in it and a lot of most of the new courses I have played over the past 10-15 years (e.g. Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Pacific Dunes, Applebrook, Old Macdonald and Dallas National). Unnatural movement seems to be the big thing, these days, and if you think about it, why not? The movement at the green and surrounds on these modern courses makes every player think, even the elite ones hitting 7-iron from the 205 black tees at this hole. Is not making them think not a bad thing?
4. Now we are on the 4th, and confronted by the most non-linksy feature of the course, an inland tidal burn running down the non-ocean side of the hole (the right, as we are heading south). It dominates your thinking on the tee, and even great thinkers such as Bryan I. can overthink and yank it left towards the seaside dunes.... :). I managed to drive the ball straight and reasonably long (for a 67-year old geezer) and had a 5-iron to the green. My partners (alll solid 10-15 HCP players) all did something wrong either off the tee or on their 2nd or 3rd shots and it seemed ages before I was allowed to semi-shank my 2nd into the RH greenside bunker. My compadres grumbled about the phalanx of LH 2nd shot fairway bunkers, but they were eminently carryable and if you hit it left (as I had failingly tried to do) the contours would have brought their balls to the green. I hit an amazing bunker shot from a down hill lie to 5 feet, but yipped the birdie putt and walked smilingly shocked :o to the next green.... Overall, too many bunkers, but still a 3*** hole.
Rich
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Patrick,
It's a valid question, but not on topic for this thread. Given your penchant for turning valid questions into argumentative free-for-alls. I'd prefer that that happen on one of your threads, not mine. Start your own thread on your question and I'll be glad to comment.
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Jeff,
Re the 4th hole, I am going to guess that Hawtree designed the hole to favor a drive down the left side. The green is angled to the back right a bit and to a back pin the angle is better from the left side. To me the risk on the left is greater (stroke and distance lost ball) than that on the right (1 stroke lateral haard). Getting to a back pin from the right side, even if the green was tilted right, would be difficult. I'm left wondering who this hole was designed for - was it for ancient hacks like Rhic and I playing from forward tees, or for professionals playing from the tips. How different would it play?
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Rich,
Can you remind me how many *'s are in the Rhichelin scale? I will respectfully disagree with your *'s for the 3rd and 4th. I would reverse ratings of the two holes. The 4th just didn't fit my eye and those bunkers are just too much. The green was really cool though.
So, where is the photo of the blingy bag thingy for the inquiring minds?
Although I'd agree that the view of the beach is pretty nice from the 3rd green (here's how the beach looked in 2010)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2891/10461131225_287e26d8b2_o.jpg)
I think Cruden Bay gives it a pretty good run from the 9th tee.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3755/10461346373_098b4d17dc_c.jpg)
I agree that the greens are modern looking and not like TIGLS auld neighbours, but in their own right there are an excellent set of interesting and challenging greens.
That's pretty impressive on the 4th - a 275 yard drive and a 185 yard 5 iron up the hill (or some such combination) - for a 67 year old geezer. Bragging is allowed in these circumstances. :o ;D I guess it was playing firm and fast.
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Bryan,
Having gone 'round TLGC a few times, I'm enjoying your excellent photo essay. I don't necessarily agree with all you conclusions, however I do respect them. On the shot value off the tee on #4, I'd argue that reasonably well-struck shot down the right (without a slice or fade) would leave the player with vastly more room to cover the bunkers with a fairway wood, thus allowing for getting to a back pin. In fact, the only time I had any try approximating an eagle (missed), and/or a birdie (made one and missed the others), I'd used the right side of the fairway off the the tee.
Like you, I didn't like trying to thread the needle up the left (after trying that the first go'round :P ) and finding that spit of Marrum. The stacked nature of those two left bunkers also didn't look too appetizing. Cheers.
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Steve,
If you don't agree with my "conclusions" please feel free to give an alternate opinion. I'm basing my opinions on one play and observation while I was playing and taking pictures and trying to stay dry and my views are obviously biased by how I played it and the weather conditions. I take your point, you having tried it, that you can get to the back pins from the right side of the fairway.
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Steve
One of the cool things about 4 is that off the tee you have to flirt with the tidal burn on the right if you want to reach the green in two, but if you wimp out to the left it might take you 4-5 strokes before you get a chance to putt.
Rich
PS--hope all is well.
rfg
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Bryan,
Unlike the opinion that the course was "forced in" and unnatural" amidst those giant dunes, I just hold the alternate opinion (right or wrong ;D) that Hawtree did a good job of placing tees and greens in areas that fit the terrain very well...or certainly as best as good be asked for among such towering and steep dunes. When I look at nearby Murcar and Royal Aberdeen, I think it hard to imagine that 100+ years ago their architects found easy "natural" sites.
Just on the frontside, I thought the placement of greensites at 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 all fit naturally into the dunescape. I don't disagree that the scale of the dunes may have been nearly too steep to fit a perfectly natural golf course as compared to flatter links found throughout the Auld Sod. I also agree that there are a few too many bunkers, especially on some of the par 5s.
I love your photo essay and think it's quite valuable for many here to see and feel what they've yet to experience for themselves.
Rich,
Exactly as two of my power-hitting friends quickly found out!! :o
All is good here...just counting down the days until I receive a brand new "artificial" knee!!! Look forward to teeing it up with you someday soon!
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Patrick,
It's a valid question, but not on topic for this thread. Given your penchant for turning valid questions into argumentative free-for-alls. I'd prefer that that happen on one of your threads, not mine. Start your own thread on your question and I'll be glad to comment.
Interesting that you seek to disrupt my threads but take exception when a valid question is posed on one of your threads.
Certainly, even a moron such as yourself sees the disingenuous double standard you espouse.
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Patrick,
It's a valid question, but not on topic for this thread. Given your penchant for turning valid questions into argumentative free-for-alls. I'd prefer that that happen on one of your threads, not mine. Start your own thread on your question and I'll be glad to comment.
Interesting that you seek to disrupt my threads but take exception when a valid question is posed on one of your threads.
Certainly, even a moron such as yourself sees the disingenuous double standard you espouse.
Pure (cl)ass.
There is a definite Hawtree styled (links?) Green with the edge contouring as shown above. I have had a lot of fun playing them. They attract criticism when one or two are dropped in on a course where the movement on other greens is not so obvious e.g. Hoylake. But that green pictured, would fit in happily with his others at Dooks and maybe it’s because the ground there is not so extreme that they didn’t jar at all with me. (Echoes of the Raynor thread here?).
I haven’t seen Trump but the Dunes at Lahinch are pretty extreme and yet the greens seem to fit the land there pretty well. However a lot of the interest there comes from the long game and the fairway lies you get, so maybe it’s not a good comparison.
Good thread please continue.
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Hole 5
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/10449025545_9b2177f51b_o.jpg)
After four holes proceeding more or less due south along the coast, the 5th reverses direction and heads back north on the inland side. The front nine is your basic links out and back routing. The 5th is a shortish par 4, playing into the wind on this day. Playing with the prevailing wind it would play even shorter. For a major championship, I'm not sure where the challenge of the hole would be.
From the tee with a wide view, the fairway looks miniscule, but is reasonably generous. On first impression the carry looked daunting, but it turned out to be manageable even into the wind. The rough on the left side wasn't the punitive marram grass, so it was possible to find a ball and hack it out.
The heathery area left of the fairway is the site of three or four holes of the new MacLeod course. Perhaps they will find some interesting micro dunescapes that they can incorporate into the new course that will make it more low profile links-like. We shall see.
The second tee photo is zoomed in on the 5th hole. There appear to be three options, created by the centreline bunker, for the drive - left, right or carry. The carry wasn't an option for me, but likely is for longer hitters, especially with the prevailing wind helping. I suspect that laying up to a favourite distance is probably a good option too, given that the green is elevated, shallow and angled away to the left. On one playing, it looks like the right side gives a better angle to all pin positions.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3828/10357320844_f3c86420f4_o.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7458/10357510493_deb68f7f1f_o.jpg)
From the left rough short of the centreline bunker you can see the rumpled nature of the fairway. This is looking more traditionally links-like. Also, the centre-line bunker is unique on the course as it is surrounded by rough and eyelashes. Not sure Hawtree built this one bunker like that. It certainly stands out.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3744/10357322546_08f3779885_o.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/10357322614_6bdca0b997_o.jpg)
From past the bunker, a picture of some more of the rumpled fairway. I imagine there will be some funky lies out here for the long hitters.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/10357322964_4e19faaa3c_o.jpg)
A small patch of more benign rough to the right of the green that I found leaving a delicate pitch to an elevated green with the ubiquitous runoffs. And from short right when you don't execute the delicate pitch. Notice the hollows and ridges to the back side of the green.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/10357320555_6fccbefc63_o.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7300/10357321446_15bbeb3b0f_o.jpg)
From behind the green looking back, the green surface is pretty benign, or is that subtle. The MacLeod course will be off to the right. Looks like you might be able to make an awesome Alps hole over the sand blow out behind the flag. ;D :o
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(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/10357322614_6bdca0b997_o.jpg)
This photo of the shaggy grassed fairway bunker in the middle of the 5th fairway is interesting. Other links courses (sometimes) have them as well.
What do folks herein think of shaggy grass around bunkers? I can understand it if you physically can't get a mower into that area or you wish to go minimalism/low maintenance but otherwise I'm not convinced of the features worthiness - you miss the hazard by a couple of inches and you're in a worse place than if you'd been in the hazard. Have a grassy mound maybe, be combining it with a bunker?
What do other folks reckon?
Great photo tour and narrative Bryan. Really enjoying it and looking forward to seeing the rest.
All the best.
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Thomas,
I think it depends on how thick the shaggy grass is. If you can play a shot with a certain degree of control then I do not see a problem. The cases for them apart from aesthetical ones which are subjective are better definition from a distance, ease of maintenance and sand retention. I do not think that the shaggy grass should be harder to play from than the bunker itself which is why I am somewhat sceptical about heather surrounds.
In this particular case I do think that the shaggy grass helps to compliment the same effect on the mounding closer to the green and to the right.
Jon
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Hole 6
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2879/10476809366_05c9960d60_o.jpg)
The 6th hole is a mid-length par 3 and the second of the excellent set of four par 3's. The setting is all world carrying from a dune across a ravine to a green nestled in amongst another grouping of dunes. All the tees are stacked so the angle of the hole is the same for all tees. The tee shot really calls for a draw to most pins (except perhaps a front right position behind the bunker where a fade might work) as the green angles slightly in behind the massive dune on the left. The shot is all or nothing - there is really no good place to miss.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/10357508983_4a4f298cfe_o.jpg)
From in front of the green you can see the steeply sloped bank that will draw short shots away from the green, and the very penal looking revetted bunker.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/10357318245_2ff0fdafc5_o.jpg)
From short left of the green here here is a pictures of the surrounds on the left and the left side of the putting surface.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3734/10357509953_ef7234a7a8_o.jpg)
From back left when exiting the green site you can see that there is one little saving hollow back left of the green and there is a nice view over the dunes to the sea.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3676/10357319546_4ab470e6ff_o.jpg)
From behind the green looking back to the tee, the contours of the green are visible. No easy putts here.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7391/10357319634_2a8f9c1490_o.jpg)
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Bryan
Just keeping up with your refreshingly casual pace.....
As for my bling, as Eli Wallach once famously said "I don't need no stinkin' photos of my badges!"
As for (nearly/effectively) reaching the 4th with a drive and a 5 iron, it was downwind and ground was fast and firm and from the whites the hole was only 460. Into the wind from the blacks I am sure it would be driver, please rescue me, please rescue me, and the rest....)
As for the Richelin (rhymes with Michelin) Scale, 3*** is the the max and I reserve my right to change these hole by hole ratings after we finish this dialogue. As for the 4th, too many bunkers yes, but as most of them are superfluous, no real effect vis a vis the "Rules of Richelin."
As for 5. Turning into the wind I aimed at your favorite hairy arse bunker on the left, assuming rightly that I couldn't reach it, but assumingly unrightly that I could carry the gunge.... I was ~ 160 yards from the green, but in no position to try to get there so I hacked out, hit a good lob wedge into the wind to 8 feet and again missed the putt. Very interesting hole. Into the wind the play off the tee is obviously (now, too late...) to the right and then hit and hope to a very wild green. Even downwind, I see no reason to take that hairy left bunker on. Careful drive to the right, careful shot to the green, two putts should be the mantra, but I'm sure that testosterone will overtake many players brain cells, leading to misery and consternation... 2**.
Rich
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Bryan -
I am enjoying your comprehensive tour. Thanks for the excellent pics.
I seem to recall the course being criticized in prior threads for the bunkers being uniformly circular in shape. You pics reveal there are a good number of bunkers that are not.
DT
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6.
What a really good hole!
As my playing partners and I walked to the tee we saw one of the 4-ball in front of us at the apex of one of Tiggles' out-of-play massive dunes off to the left, but it obviously wasn't out-of-play as he was looking for his ball up in Yeti country. We giggled (or should I say "tiggled"?) as he eventually disappeared towards the next tee, but stopped tiggling after one of us (not me) hit it in exactly the same direction and then another of us (not me) carved two off to right into the wetlands and then another of us (not me) took out driver and hit his ball 20 yards through the green into the marram grass plantations and then I heeled a "rescue me" that slided low and left to right no more than 10' high into the wind, then must have kissed the flag on the way by before stopping 20 feet from the hole. The two that were hors de combat picked up, my driver wielding parnter made a a great up and down and I 3-putted down the hill, leaving my first wimpish effort 8 feet short.....
I give it 2** but reserve my right to raise it to 3
Rich
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Rich,
On 5 it sounds like we had matching drives. After that you clearly outplayed me to the green. But, then I sank my putt. ;) Sounds like you were having a good ball striking day so far.
How do you think pros would play the hole in a serious championship?
David,
I don't recall complaints of the pots being circular, just that they were all, well, revetted pots of the same style. They are definitely not all circular. The hairy one on the 5th is unique on the course in being hairy (I think).
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6.
What a really good hole!
As my playing partners and I walked to the tee we saw one of the 4-ball in front of us at the apex of one of Tiggles' out-of-play massive dunes off to the left, but it obviously wasn't out-of-play as he was looking for his ball up in Yeti country. We giggled (or should I say "tiggled"?) as he eventually disappeared towards the next tee, but stopped tiggling after one of us (not me) hit it in exactly the same direction and then another of us (not me) carved two off to right into the wetlands and then another of us (not me) took out driver and hit his ball 20 yards through the green into the marram grass plantations and then I heeled a "rescue me" that slided low and left to right no more than 10' high into the wind, then must have kissed the flag on the way by before stopping 20 feet from the hole. The two that were hors de combat picked up, my driver wielding parnter made a a great up and down and I 3-putted down the hill, leaving my first wimpish effort 8 feet short.....
I give it 2** but reserve my right to raise it to 3
Rich
Thanks for that - very entertaining. Exactly how strong was the wind that day. Hard to fathom a driver or even a hybrid on a 165 yard hole? This hole could definitely be a score wrecker.
Are your star ratings coloured ever so slightly by your putting experiences?
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What a good looking hole the 6th is. It is one of those I haven't seen in the flesh.
David, I have certainly mentioned the repetitiveness of the bunker forms on this course though never said ALL but just many which I will stand by. There are too many bunkers cluttering up the course and many are very samey. That is not to say I think this is a bad course because of it but it does hold it back.
Jon
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Thanks very much for the tour; really enjoy the pictures. On the "in the dunes, not of the dunes" standard, is part of the issue that the grass choices make the fairways stand out so much from the native grass portions? If Royal County Down had greener, rye grass fairways, would it look more "in the dunes" than "of the dunes"?
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Carl,
I think your analogy would be closer fitting to Royal Birkdale though the greens at RB are more sympathetic to the surroundings. The fairways at RB are very flat compared to the big dunes it is set in. Having said that it is difficult to know how much was flattened, if any at all as the untouched valley bottoms in the area are also often very flat.
Jon
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I find the 6th very similar to the 15th on Ailsa.
No ?
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I find the 6th very similar to the 15th on Ailsa.
No ?
I haven't seen this one, but...no.
I recall the Ailsa green as reasonably flat. The similarity might be the small dune on the left, but where's the bunker at the rear tat was so much in paly on final round of 2009, or the really sharp fall off to the right?
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The sixth is Martin Hawtree's favourite hole on the course.
When I was there last month, one of my playing partners pointed out that the very manicured walking path right in front of the green spoiled the impression of a wild landscape somewhat. I agree with this, but it's a minor criticism of a very good hole.
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The sixth is Martin Hawtree's favourite hole on the course.
When I was there last month, one of my playing partners pointed out that the very manicured walking path right in front of the green spoiled the impression of a wild landscape somewhat. I agree with this, but it's a minor criticism of a very good hole.
While I most definitely agree with most who like 6 for whatever reason, I do find the "cornice" bunker here a bit disheartening. There is absolutely no room for a shot out to the right side or backwards...one of the often necessary directions to take if one's lie in it is right up against the lip. One lefty in my group had to take a putt in the bunker just to get the ball to a playable spot.....not exactly reasonable IMO.
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On # 6 is there a feel or consensus as to the optimal distance to play the hole from ?
Some holes function best at a select distance, what would that distance be on# 6 ?
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I recall the Ailsa green as reasonably flat. The similarity might be the small dune on the left, but where's the bunker at the rear tat was so much in paly on final round of 2009, or the really sharp fall off to the right?
Less bunkering, but both have a sharp fall off to the right.
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Carl,
Can't really comment on RCD as I haven't seen it. Jon's reference to RB having flat fairways between dunes is spot on, although RB's dunes are nowhere near the height and size of the ones at TIGLS. Vis-a-vis "of the dunes", I think the dunes at Tigls are really too large for the most part to incorporate them directly into a hole. Perhaps some of the smaller ones might have made a good Alps hole or a blind tee shot, but other than that it's hard to see how the course could have utilized them other than as gorgeous framing.
__________________________________
Brian E,
I don't see the resemblance to the 15th at Ailsa. What do you see?
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3816/10488328363_7625e68f47_c.jpg)
_____________________________________
Adam,
It could be argued that all the manicured paths detract from what is a pretty wild and rough site. I hope the fairways and greens and maintained rough will age into a somewhat wilder and lass manicured links look, although it is possible that the course will be maintained in an ANGC manicured style on an ongoing basis.
_____________________________________
Steve,
I hadn't thought of that for a left-hander, but ti is true. Perhaps there are other bunkers where a right-hander is equally dead. Perhaps this bunker is potentially really a one shot lost kind of bunker for left-handers. But, golf is not necessarily fair. Your playing partner could have taken an unplayable drop elsewhere in the bunker rather than putting, but that doesn't ease the pain, I guess.
______________________________________
Patrick,
Optimal distance for what player in what kind of conditions? I don't know that there is a unitary answer to that question. It strikes me that if the distance required a player to hit a fairway wood or a driver and it was playing downwind in the prevailing wind then it would be too difficult a hole given there is no way to run it on nor nowhere good if the ball ran over.
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(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3769/10476868385_49ccc84f9d_o.jpg)
To me, the 7th is a very perplexing hole. On the one hand, it's not often that I come across a drivable par 4 that I have a reasonable chance of driving, even into a wind, and from 230 yards on the white tees, even I could potentially get there. On the other hand, fr most long hitters and certainly for the touring pros that would play here in future Ryder Cups/Open Championships (if they ever get here) it would just be a good sized par 3, even from the tips. In either event the fairway bunkers seem redundant. Who is really going to lay up that short given there is more width around the green than there is in the lay up area. On the other hand how can you dislike a hole that has no green-side bunkers. But what about those small patches of wispy rough in some parts of the green embankment - they reduce the options. On the other hand, it is another elevated green with runoffs, hollows and ridges. And, on the other hand a pin on the front peninsula looks like a good defense. I am perplexed, but perhaps that speaks well of the hole design. I'd love to hear from you others about your playing experiences on this hole.
From the tee the green looks really close, but the fairway looks really narrow. In a strong wind against or across the marram rough left and right might be butt puckering. Downwind, with the prevailing wind it wouldn't even require a driver for most.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2875/10357317354_7f643b7e6a_o.jpg)
The fairway bunkers look to be in play from this angle, but you'd have to foozle a shot pretty badly to be in them.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5534/10357508273_72f1506842_o.jpg)
From front left of the green you can see the contouring that will help deflect many tee shots. Hitting the front peninsula of the green will be a matter of lick I suspect. Also visible are tow of the "rough" grass bunker areas. Will they let them get deep and gnarly? If so, it'd be unique on the course I think.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10357318306_8ce4ee98b8_o.jpg)
From the front right side if the green you can see the fall offs from the green and the patch of light wispy rough. My drive is is the wispy stuff amongst the wire hoops. Oh, for a video of how it got to that point. Below the wispy patch is the manicured walkway leading to the next tee. That has got to get worn as they attract more play and more trolley and foot traffic.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3738/10488646986_512efba882_o.jpg)
From behind the green looking back you can see the relatively mild contouring of the green and the relatively wild undulations in the approaches.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7320/10357317694_abb15c7c93_o.jpg)
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The sixth is Martin Hawtree's favourite hole on the course.
When I was there last month, one of my playing partners pointed out that the very manicured walking path right in front of the green spoiled the impression of a wild landscape somewhat. I agree with this, but it's a minor criticism of a very good hole.
I had the same reaction, a small winding path would have been much better. Think Swinley Forest hole 4
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The sixth is Martin Hawtree's favourite hole on the course.
When I was there last month, one of my playing partners pointed out that the very manicured walking path right in front of the green spoiled the impression of a wild landscape somewhat. I agree with this, but it's a minor criticism of a very good hole.
I had the same reaction, a small winding path would have been much better. Think Swinley Forest hole 4
Btw...I once asked one of Hawtree's key architects about this path and his reply was along the lines of: "Well, it does serves as a bailout area on a hole otherwise without one, doesn't it?" ???
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The sixth is Martin Hawtree's favourite hole on the course.
When I was there last month, one of my playing partners pointed out that the very manicured walking path right in front of the green spoiled the impression of a wild landscape somewhat. I agree with this, but it's a minor criticism of a very good hole.
I had the same reaction, a small winding path would have been much better. Think Swinley Forest hole 4
Either a small winding path with every effort to hide it from view... or widened out on the approach to the green so it no longer feels like a path... Both these options should have been possible.
Really like the hole though - an exciting tee shot.
Patrick - For the lowish man, it plays well at about 175 yards. If there were an optimum length, that's about it.
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Hmm, I like a lot of the individual elements of hole 7, but am not sure if they work combined?
The green and steep surrounds is beautiful, but really only accepts high shots into it, is a bump and run shot really possible?
What is the strategy of a lay up shot? It looks like the best angle into the green is from the left, but there is no fairway there except the deep hollow left of the green.
I guess I would hit one as close to the green as I could with a punch shot and then try to make your up and down, no real benefit in laying up.
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Bryan
Re the fairway bunkering on no. 7, I think it definitely comes into play for a lot of shorter hitters who don't have a turbo charged driver like you do. They are also going to come into play for even the longer hitters when playing into a strong wind. That being the case I think you could make a case for removing them so as to increase the options of how you play the hole when reachable since at the moment (as you point out) there's as much room around the green as short of it so why not give it everything you've got.
That said, these bunkers are possibly some of the better bunkers on the course in Trms of variety of shape and blending in with the surrounds IMO.
Niall
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Bryan -
I am enjoying your comprehensive tour. Thanks for the excellent pics.
I seem to recall the course being criticized in prior threads for the bunkers being uniformly circular in shape. You pics reveal there are a good number of bunkers that are not.
DT
David
You make a very good point. This tour highlights that not all Balmedie bunkers are circular pots although thinking of the course as a whole you do tend to walk away thinking they are all round and there are too many of them, as typified by no. 18. A selected cull of a number of the round pots would work wonders in negating both perceptions in my not so humble opinion.
Niall
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Bryan
Vis a vis the 6th, I hit my 19 degree rescue frm 165 because I was only carrying 10 clubs and my next lowest one was a 5-iron, and the only way I was going to get a 5-iron to that green in that wind was by hitting a hard low hook into the wind which is pretty much near the bottom of shots I have in my bag....... So, I choked down, tried to punch it low, heeled it but low and ugly but ultimately dead straight. I'll take luck over skill any time...
Pat
Into a strong wind this hole can be a killer from any tee. One of my playing partners hit a decent 4-iron but with a little too much side spin and his shot (and the next one) faded off high to the right and landed 20-30 yards short in the impenetrable wetlands. Another over compensated and hit that hard left 5-iron I copnsidered but got it high too and he ended up 40 yards to the left of the green and short, in the gunge. The driver guy wasn't a long hitter, but he nutted it and while landing on the middle of the green it exited the short grass at the back with pace. In the calm, or even down wind, all the tees are playable (I'd go for the Blacks @ 183 with more elevation which would give you an even greater view). The green plays sharply from back to front, so if you hit the ball fairly solid and straight you will be OK regardless of what tee you play.
Back to Bryan and the 7th
A puzzling hole when you reach the while tees and see a green 230 yards away. Two par-3's in a row? Who does Hawtree think he is? Doak? Then you read the sign that says "par" 4, start anticipating the birdie (or even eagle) putt. Of course, into the wind, greening the ball was a big ask, and an even bigger once once we caught up with our drives and saw all the humps and hollows that you can't really see from the white tee. I hit a reasonably good driver and was almost pin high down in the dingly dell to the left. My playing partners were all 30-50 yards short and faced with very difficult decision shots from humpty bumpty lies. None of them passed the test, and after I hit a flop shot to 10 feet or so, the two of them who were from Nairn but knew Dornoch well volunteered that they really never encountered such shots on their course, but could see the greenside resemblance at this and other holes at Tiggles to Dornoch. You need a reliable flopshot at Tiggles.
That being said, I think this hole is severely over-manufactured for a driveable par-4. Regardless of the wind or the tees I see this as a "hit the distance and hope" hole without any real strategic options off the tee. I agree that the right side bunkers are superfluous and the rolling terrain down the middle OTT. Nil * for this hole for me.
Rich
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Rich,
I guess you proved my hypothesis on how best to play hole 7 (be it with a data set of 3 players :) )
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Rich,
I guess you proved my hypothesis on how best to play hole 7 (be it with a data set of 3 players :) )
Actually, 4 players (including me). Good to see we think alike.
rich
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Niall,
No turbo driver left in this old golfer. I played it into the wind and I doubt the two bunkers would come into play if you were playing from the proper tees and unless you were trying a layup shot. After laying up, as Rich pointed out, there is really no good lie and the 2nd shot is a good-luck-mate kind of shot to a front pin from 40 to 70 yards. Most people who would lack the length and want to lay up probably don't have that shot.
I'm still curious how the pros would play the hole. Even for them hitting the green would be a challenge. Can't imagine any laying up, though.
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After laying up, as Rich pointed out, there is really no good lie and the 2nd shot is a good-luck-mate kind of shot to a front pin from 40 to 70 yards. Most people who would lack the length and want to lay up probably don't have that shot.
I'm still curious how the pros would play the hole. Even for them hitting the green would be a challenge. Can't imagine any laying up, though.
This description reminds me of Aberdovey's marvelous 16th (but without the track and train line threatening the LHS) on one of my all time favourite Par 4's.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/aberdovey/P8100360.jpg)
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I'm still curious how the pros would play the hole. Even for them hitting the green would be a challenge. Can't imagine any laying up, though.
They would just whack their drive close to the green and make their up and down 70% of the time, birdie bingo!
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I thought the 7th was the worst hole on the course, as if they couldn't get comfortable with the length of it, and went out of their way to trick up the approach and the surrounds, so there was no sense in trying. So, then it's a 260-yard lay-up hole, or a hit-and-hope and then try to get up and down from some awkward situations.
The 16th at Aberdovey is a much better hole, which rewards the player who can hug the o.b. left, whether on a 280-yard tee shot or a 180-yarder.
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OK, I guess we all agree on hole 7, ready for hole 8!
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Do the elevated greens work on this course? It seems contrary to the idea of a links course in that it makes run ups appear much less viable.
Regardless, does it matter? It is not often you see run up shots in the Open Championship.
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After laying up, as Rich pointed out, there is really no good lie and the 2nd shot is a good-luck-mate kind of shot to a front pin from 40 to 70 yards. Most people who would lack the length and want to lay up probably don't have that shot.
I'm still curious how the pros would play the hole. Even for them hitting the green would be a challenge. Can't imagine any laying up, though.
This description reminds me of Aberdovey's marvelous 16th (but without the track and train line threatening the LHS) on one of my all time favourite Par 4's.
The 3rd at Cruden Bay would be another similar hole to consider in this respect. But as Frank says above, the Pro's (and better/longer amateurs) "would just whack their drive close to the green and make their up and down 70% of the time, birdie bingo!" I guess probably all 'short' par-4's fall into such a category. Plus, if everyone laid-up to the same general spot, you'd get a divot infested area pretty quickly (whereupon James Braid would signal from the sky suggesting a bunker be placed in the spot........see other recent threads on bunker placement!).
All the best.
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Jason
The courses that most resemble Tiggles in terms of topography are all in Connacht---Carne, Enniscrone and Connemarra. All were designed (at least orignially) by Ediiie Hackett, who probably had as much GCA talent as Hawtree but 1/1000th of his budgets. So....when Eddie built these courses he "solved" the massive dunes problem by mostly teeing up high down to a valley and then hitting up to a flat green. Yo]yu dont get too many run-ups to Eddie's greens.....
Thuat being said, there was one hole on the front 9 of Carne where you drive to the top of a ridge and then hit way, way down to a green in the valley. I was walking the course that day, carrying a few balls to see how the contours work, and on that hole I took out one of them and with only a modest amount of force bowled it down the hill from the 150 marker and made it to a green side bunker. I rolled another one, adjusting for the contours, and it finished 10 feet from the pin. How if only Hawtree could have built just one of those kind of holes at Tiggles (and Eddie built more on a lot of his courses) what a greater Big World of GCA it would be....
Rich
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The 3rd at Cruden Bay would be another similar hole to consider in this respect. But as Frank says above, the Pro's (and better/longer amateurs) "would just whack their drive close to the green and make their up and down 70% of the time, birdie bingo!" I guess probably all 'short' par-4's fall into such a category.
The difference is that at Cruden hole 3 there is the real danger of hitting the ball OB with your drive. Also the green is one big bowl, (almost the reverse of the 7th at Trump), so a well hit drive feed into the green. Probably your best chance in the world to make a hole in one on a par 4!
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Patrick,
Optimal distance for what player in what kind of conditions?
I don't know that there is a unitary answer to that question.
It strikes me that if the distance required a player to hit a fairway wood or a driver and it was playing downwind in the prevailing wind then it would be too difficult a hole given there is no way to run it on nor nowhere good if the ball ran over.
Bryan,
Are you therefore advocating for six sets of tees on every course ?
Absent wind, is there not a range where a hole/green retains both it's challenge and it's fun ?
Do you think the "Postage Stamp" hole at Troon would work at 180, 200 and 230 ?
Or, is there a distance beyond which either the hole's challenge and/or fun are removed ?
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Patrick,
I answered your previous question as it pertains to the 6th hole at TIGLS, the subject of this thread. I see you've started another thread on your tangential topic. Let's keep it on that thread.
Vis-a-vis my views on multiple tees, I'm OK with them at TIGLS (apart from the silly paths). The tees are generally hidden from each other so the aesthetics are fine for me. I think the multiple tees at TIGLS allow for some mixing and matching if you want to do that, and provides for some different angles and looks and challenges. It also allows a wider variety of people an enjoyable challenge on the course. I, for one, would not want to play the course if there was only one men's tee and it was the blacks or even the golds.
Now back to the regularly scheduled programming.
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Hole 8
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2812/10476890326_995960b41a_o.jpg)
Continuing the trek north, and on this day into the wind, the 8th is a long par 4 slap in the face after the very short par 4 7th. I foozled my second shot, so my playing experience is not of much use, other than it was an easy bogey regardless.
From the White tee the fairway is a bit offset and presents, at first blush, a daunting carry over the marram and a smallish (for this site) dune that obscures part of the fairway. The further back you tee it, the more the angle to the fairway is offset. In retrospect the carry is not all that long, especially if you are playing it downwind. The green, in the distance, seems to partly hide behind the encroaching slope of a large dune suggesting that the right side of the fairway is going to be a better option, especially for a left pin.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3820/10357352184_bd238d3b1f_o.jpg)
From near the right side fairway bunker the green opens up for the long second shot. The fairway is expansively wide but stunningly flat after the severely rumpled fairway on the preceding hole. I guess I'd prefer a more consistent design motif in the fairways. I like rumpled linksy fairways. For flat I can play at home.
From here the green also looks very much like a lay of the land creation compared to previous elevated greens. It's nice to have some variety in the greens. This one looks like it's receptive to a long running shot.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5503/10357541993_4f9a4f6f71_o.jpg)
From the left side of the fairway and closer in you can see how the dune slope might encroach on a left pin.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7453/10357542253_f7fbf409f4_o.jpg)
From closer in at the front of the green you can see the contours on what might be a mild Redan-like green with a bit of a false front. The green does extend left, so there are places to tuck pins behind the dune for shots played from the left side of the fairway. It looks possible that you could run a long shot toward the right side of the green and have it deflected to the left by the slope at the front of the green. There appear to be some subtle options that would require multiple plays to understand.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7293/10357352916_f0d71118ea_o.jpg)
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8th green - favourite on the course and the only one that doesn't have a plethora of shaped swales around its perimeter.
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Just one thought for those that have played it:
With the seemingly atypical lack of sand around the 8th green, would one trap on the right hand side not have suited? It just occurs to me that such a hazard, coupled with a right pin and a green which appears to slope away, would have presented a real hazard in that holding a recovery shot near the pin would have been tricky.
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The fairway is........stunningly flat........I like rumpled linksy fairways. For flat I can play at home.
Very nicely put. I felt pretty much the same playing the Glashedy after the Old at Ballyliffin. Work undertaken by big machines can reduce the uniqueness/charm/interest/enjoyment/fun factor.
All the best
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(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5469/10157740806_5742acde7e_o.jpg)
This is just a wrong image.
Brian,
What would you replace it with ?
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Paul,
A bunker in front of the right side of the green would indeed make a right hand pin hard to get at, but the I think the hole plays difficult enough as a long par 4 (500 yards from the tips) that it really doesn't need to protect right pins. Putting a bunker there would also ruin the possibility of running in a long second shot. That would not be good in my opinion.
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Hole 9
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5539/10476886974_44103a5754_o.jpg)
The front nine closes, still heading north, with a second long par 4 in a row. The 8th and 9th are a challenging pair of holes, especially into the wind.
From the tee the hole presents as a bottle neck much more than would appear to be the case in the yardage guide. Again, the fairway is relatively flat and is framed by the dunes. At first I wasn't sure in the mist where the green was and then thought that it was possible to reach the bottle neck. Into the wind it turns out the bottleneck wasn't nearly reachable with the drive. Sadly, the roof of the clubhouse and hospitality tent get ever more obtrusive in the background behind the green the closer you get to the green.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5509/10357349006_9530425ffe_o.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5485/10357539653_6bac68658a_o.jpg)
From the fairway, the second to the green looks pretty narrow. Turns out it was. I leaked a hybrid a little right but thought I'd find it easily. Noppe, another lost ball.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/10357351304_3fd0519f61_o.jpg)
Zoomed in from the fairway we have another raised green protected front right by a menacing pot. Running a long second shot in here is going to be tough.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3802/10357351056_386d2ee2e1_o.jpg)
From off the right front corner of the green you can see that contouring on the green. It turns out to be both narrow and long (54 yards). I'd guess this hole is going to be a medal round wrecker although it is only the 5 handicap hole.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/10357540493_985d3e21c1_o.jpg)
And, another view from just short of the green and the front pot bunker.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7405/10357348885_92f4b2bb6d_o.jpg)
Looking back you can see the frequently used elevated side of the green and the ridges and hollows that, in my opinion, are probably overused on the course. You can also see that they used the way, way back pin on this day, which made the hole another 20-odd yards longer.
And, what's this, two other golfers on the course behind me?
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3787/10357349636_a393f1005d_o.jpg)
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Bryan,
I like this thread and appreciate the comments you are putting up, but there is nothing I have seen so far that would make me want to make a booking next time I am in Scotland. The course appears somewhat disjointed, with a lot of similar features and ideas. Maybe at £50, but not at £195.
What makes it worth playing?
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Quite liked the 9th green - Although it is the same elevated with surrounding swale style, it is unique to the course in its length and narrowness (about 50m long I think I paced).... It is situated in a narrow pocket so anything wide is severely punished but its not pushed right back against a dune giving space at the back... One thing they could definitely do here is extend a long short grass run-off to the rear of this green site.
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During both my rounds in opening week, July 2012, the wind was broadly from the north. Last month, it was more southerly, though on neither occasion was it more than a fairly gentle breeze. It's remarkable how much even a small amount of wind changes these holes. Into any wind, eight and nine are brutal; with a little bit of help, one of my playing partners reached the eighth, from the 463 yard blue tee, with a drive and a very short iron. But if there's a strong wind from the north, play both holes as far forward as you can!
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OK, I guess we all agree on hole 7, ready for hole 8!
Not quite. I thought this to be one of the more interesting holes on the course. Par is a non-issue and the raised green actually makes sense this time. Many of the rest of the greens are raised and over its one of the big issues I have with the course. I think the goal is to get just shy of the green or pin high either side depending on the wind. This hole is far more interesting than any of the par 5s except perhaps the 10th. Getting up n down is difficult, but securing a four isn't overly difficult in the least. What is we all say, ignore length and create the difficulty at the green? Thats exactly the 7th. One of the best holes on the course.
Surely the worst has to be the 18th? Wrong hole at the wrong time.
Brian - I am with you, road signs are not a good sign on a golf course!
Ciao
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Paul,
A bunker in front of the right side of the green would indeed make a right hand pin hard to get at, but the I think the hole plays difficult enough as a long par 4 (500 yards from the tips) that it really doesn't need to protect right pins. Putting a bunker there would also ruin the possibility of running in a long second shot. That would not be good in my opinion.
Thanks Bryan.
I actually had side right (as opposed to front right) in mind to catch the miss hit slider but I fully appreciate your comments about it already being tough enough.
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Mark,
I can't really give you any good reason to play it at full price. If it turns out to be one of a consensus top ten in the world or some such, then maybe you'll find a few quid to give it a go. Otherwise, maybe at £195 (higher on weekends) it will be the playground for the well-heeled tourist golfer (and the local residents and off season golfers).
Adam,
Maybe that experience demonstrates that the course plays firm and fast despite the rye fairways. A good thing I think.
Sean,
Let's see - you have the 7th as one of the best and Tom D and Frank have it as the worst, and I don't think it is either the best or worst hole on the course, but somewhere in between. Is it going to turn out to be a polarizing hole? If it is one of the best, how does that speak to the overall course, or conversely, if it is one of the worst? Those bunkers on 18 really got to you I see. ;)
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Adam,
Maybe that experience demonstrates that the course plays firm and fast despite the rye fairways. A good thing I think.
Not quite sure I agree. If it's running, it's running. The wind affects rollout far less than it does carry.
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And, what's this, two other golfers on the course behind me?
I had spotted in the previous photos the lack of other players on the course, and, at a members club they'd indeed be fellow golfers, but at a resort/P&P they arn't two golfers, their £390 on legs (sic)!
Shame the buildings couldn't have the roofs coloured to blend in more with the surroundings and be rather less conspicuous, maybe green, like some cricket pavilion roofs are (eg SCG).
Damn good photo tour. Really pleased to see the photos taken from the rear and sides of the greens.
All the best.
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Hole 10
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7315/10551551916_8baaeb095b_o.jpg)
Ah, the 10th hole. There were some threads on this hole back when all we could see were the plans. I questioned the sanity of the split fairway then. Having now seen and played it, I'd still say that the split fairway really doesn't work. There is no earthly reason to take the right hand path. As the weather worsened and I was snacking, I let the two ball behind me through. (All day that I was there, I only saw a foursome go out about a half hour in front of me and two twosomes that followed me). The twosome I let through appeared to be one of the pros and his guest. The pro was describing the holes as they went, it seemed based on the discussion on the 10th tee. The discussion went something like this.
Guest: Were should I play this tee shot.
Pro: There's a split fairway but you'd have to be an idiot to play the right fairway.
Guest: Well, I'm not an idiot. You hit first.
The pro teed off with a long iron and hit it well left of where I thought it looked like the line should be. When they cleared, I hit it on the same line and it turned out to be a fine, albeit leaving a semi-blind second shot. I can see no reason to challenge the barrow neck. It would take an awesomely long second shot with a late draw to reach the green and the risk of losing a ball in the flanking dunes is too great.
The hole was playing into the wind still and is gradually uphill so it played longer than its stated yardage. From the tee, it was hard to discern where the fairway was and certainly where the green is. The look is very low profile unlike so many of the other elevated tees on the course. The picture shows the location of the fairway better than I could see it in person. Perhaps on a clearer day the view would be better. Zoomed in, the second picture shows things a little more clearly.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3779/10357346996_ed16ccf3bd_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3779/10357346996_ed16ccf3bd_o.jpg)
From the centre of the fairway near the bottleneck, some decisions need to be made about where to lay up to avoid the bunkers and have a view of the green on the third shot. The far right of the fairway seems best. The green is more or less behind the dune on the left where the dark green patch is. Not very appetizing if you're trying to get home in two. My tee shot was somewhat left of this position and shorter. From there the second is partially obscured by a low dune.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7407/10357346225_cbf186b53b_o.jpg)
My second ended up here, just short of the fairway bunker. It's only 107 yards from here, but the green is completely hidden behind the dune. A second shot further right would be preferred.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7312/10357348334_a536909aeb_o.jpg)
From further right and a bit closer you can see some of the green surface in a dell amongst the huge dunes.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/10357538863_49e07d4fff_o.jpg)
From a bit closer in you can see more of the green and some more of the ubiquitous ridges and hollows in the surrounds, although this green is not as elevated as some of the others. Some patching of the rye fairway grass is visible in the foreground.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3755/10357348206_88b2e093d6_o.jpg)
From the right front of the green the hollows and ridges are very clear as is the three tier nature of the green. As I recall there are some small folds and ledge within the tiers and near the edges. It looks like they are cutting the marram back a bit behind the green here as well as some other places around the course.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5528/10357538643_53096e0ed5_o.jpg)
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I agree with most of the comments above, Bryan. It's a long slog uphill, particularly in the wind and has interest off the tee, as left is safe but the wrong angle for the 2nd, while right is full of potential danger--bunekr, dunes, wetlands, etc. In the name of research, I chose to explore the explore the tea party line (i.e. far right) and lost my ball in the boggy bit well right of the short grass. That ball deserved a rest, as it had accompanied me through 18 holes atg Pebble Beach a few weeks previous and 7 holes on Tiggles. Whoever finds it will probably throw it back, wondering where in hell the scars of combat that covered that ball (cart path contusions, bladed lob wedge gash, etc.) came from....
I dropped out onto the fairway where a good drive of mine might have ended up and hit a low running 3-wood that ended up 30-40 yards short of the green. None of my playing partners, all of whom hit good drives down the left came close to the putting surface, one through the fooozle route and the other two due to the wind and the elevation change. In calm or downwind conditions the hole is reachable, but probably through the ground route only for most mere mortals. As such, the lack of fronting hazards on the green is appropriate, IMO, as is the relative subtelewty of the green. It's a hard to score on hole, but also hard to get a bogey (unless you take t he tea party route or execute a double foozle). It's not a pretty hole but a challenging one. The way it plays and loooks reminds me a bit of the 18th at Dornoch, and gets the same rating. One *.
9 is even more of a brute, again virtually unreachable into the wind, but with a much more interesting green complex than 8. The pros will find it a fairly hard par=4 whilst most of us will gladly walk away with a 5. I hit a good drive and an only slightly less good 3wood that settled into the marram grass 30 yards short of the hole. A hack out to the front of the green left me with a 40 yard putt to the back pin position. Given all the 5 -10 putts I had already missed in the preceding 8 holes, the fact that my smash up the hill dropped softly into the front of the cup for a 4 was poetic justice.... 2*
Rich
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I suspect that I'll get shot down for this, but another hole with a basically flat fairway and complex green surrounds. I need to get up to TIGLS to play it but so far, most of the pictures I have seen jar just a little.
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Burning the mid-night oil tonight in Vancouver, Bryan? :)
As you (and the pro) say, going down the left hand side off the tee is the only sane play, but from there, even the pros will lay up 98% of the time, even if they manage to thread a 330 yard drive through the gap, as any position on the left leaves a long blind up hill shot to a wild green complex. The shorter hitters will have to tack their way up the hill in a series of increasingly narrow shots. Not much fun I would guess (and did witness in a couple of my playing partners). I managed to hit a good drive to the bottleneck then a good 3-wood that just carried the bunkers on the left and ended up just short of the bunkers. Stupid shot that I got lucky on, but it did give me a really good look at the green. That being said, there's too much risk in that 2nd shot, so I would play the hole next time (lay up driver/3 wood, lay up 5-iron, semi-blind 7-9 iron)--not a recipe for a fun golf hole, IMO, but enough quirkiness for me to give it 1*.
As for the right hand fairway, what was Hawtree thinking?! For the good player it is just a lay-up, lay-up hole with a better line to the green for your third shot, but with too much risk on the drive to make it a reasonable alternative. However......if they could have cleared out the area straight over that circular bit of gunge on the line towards the "1-299" note on the yardage chart, maybe they could have made an alternative fairway which could tempt the pros to take a bit more risk on their 1st and 2nd shots, maybe even making the green reachable in two. Maybe the land over there was/is not suitable for that (can't remember), but if it is, why not use it?
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After my first two rounds, I concluded the tenth was the worst hole on the course: a split fairway that was completely pointless and a tee shot that was basically a forced layup, as the gap between the wetland on the right and the lost ball rough on the left narrowed to only 20 paces or so at the point a good drive would end up. Great green site for sure (not dissimilar to 10 at Chambers Bay for those who've been there) but the route there was very disappointing.
This trip I played the hole with a following breeze rather than one in my face.
Suddenly, it was a different hole.
From the blue tee (the blues are 6600 yards), it's only 220 yards to get past the bottleneck, and, although it doesn't show on the strokesaver diagram, the fairway does widen quite significantly once past that. With even a slight following breeze, it's far more sensible to hit driver and aim to get into the wide spaces beyond than layup off the tee. A decent tee shot past the bottleneck is likely to leave an approach of 200 yards or less, with the line to the flag being over the corner of the dune. Although it's uphill, it is definitely on, and it's a thrilling shot.
Mark P - the photos aren't doing the fairway justice. The first couple of hundreds yards are pretty flat, but beyond the bottleneck the land starts to rise, and has some lovely contour. Especially if you hug the left side from the tee, which will shorten the second if you're trying to get home, you will probably have a sloping stance.
So I have changed my opinion of the hole. It clearly doesn't work into any kind of headwind, but in calm conditions or with any wind at your back (and the prevailing direction is from the south and south west) it becomes a really exciting reachable par five with an interesting set of choices for the second shot if you decide you can't get home.
I would love to see some really good golfers tackle the hole with something on the line. From the very back tee (573 yards) it is 299 yards to the bottleneck: I think this might be slightly too far to induce the majority to be brave, unless there is a strong following wind.
Looking at the strokesaver now, I note there are yardages given for the distance from the tee to the end of the right fairway, but none for the distance to the green. If that doesn't prove it's pointless, I don't know what does!
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Despite the odd split fairway, I thought 10 was the most interesting of the 5s. The strategy made sense to me and the green was deceptively difficult. The day I played it was no where near reachable, but on a big course that shouldn't be surprising.
Ciao
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Rich,
It's Toronto and it was well past midnight. I am a creature of the night. ::)
Adam,
How does the 10th fit in your universal rating when played into the wind? It may be the worst on the course, but still be pretty good compared to the universe of par 5's, or is it mediocre or a dog in the broader scheme of the things? What do you think of a hole that plays so different in opposite winds?
Re your strategy for playing it downwind, I looked at Google Earth again and did some measurements because I don't recall it widening out too much until well after the bottleneck. From the blue/white tee box it is about 220 to the narrow part next to the bunker. The fairway is 20 yards wide there. At 300 yards it is still only 30 yards wide, not that I can hit it 300 yards even with a significant wind. Thereafter it widens out to about 50 yards. Too much risk for too little reward in my book. For those capable of 300+ yard drives, I'd imagine that they are playing the gold or black tees and you'd have to add 40 and 80 yards respectively to the tee shot. Even tour pros would be questioning the risk/rewards at those distances, in my opinion.
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Agreed, Bryan, but I'll reserve final judgement until I play the course again and hopefully get an Adam "Lucky" Lawrence south to north wind....
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Hole 11
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5498/10551536145_7d6d169fc4_o.jpg)
By this point in the round the weather was worsening into a heavier rain. The rain dripping off the brim of my cap may well have clouded my analysis and feelings about the next few holes although it washed away the mist/fog for the most part.
The 11th continues in a northerly direction and into the wind on this day. The hole struck me as a fairly typical dogleg right on first view. From the white tees it is a mid-length par 4, while from the blue and further back tees it would definitely be a long par 4. I guess they had to go a fair bit back to get tees up on dunes for the back tees.
From the tee, the drive looks innocuous to a fairly expansive fairway. Turns out that the right side of the fairway provides a better angle to all the pin positions on the green.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7458/10357368606_dc5b434df3_o.jpg)
From the fairway on the left side you can see some contouring ridges in the fairway leading up to another elevated green, this time with three pots guarding the approaches left and right. Looks like the approach must be aerial, although I guess you could run a shot up the middle right of the green, although there are some deflector mounds in the way.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3673/10357369316_5195495f82_o.jpg)
From near the right hand green side bunker you can see down the length of the green that is shallow and wide and angled a bit to the fairway.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/10357559723_c7f2d77853_o.jpg)
From the right side of the green you can see yet more runoffs, some ridges in the runoff, and the contouring of the green with some shelves. And, unless I was falling over as I took the picture, some slope to the green from back to front.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7304/10357559963_eace9b076d_o.jpg)
All in all, a fairly ho-hum hole to the waterlogged me. Other more fair-weathered views would be welcomed.
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11th – This one I might have been inclined to leave out the front right bunker and make more of the short grass run-off on the entire right side…
But it’s easy to see things differently. Happens on every course.
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A slight tangent before we move on to Hole 12.
As I'm sure most know there were three major moving dune areas on the TIGLS site, one down at the south end below what are now the 4th green and 5th tee. This moving dune will disappear in the building of the new Macleod course. The first picture below is of that dune as of 2010. The second large moving dune was toward the north end of the property centred around where the 13th hole is now. And, the third is slight further north and east near where the 15th is today.
In the second picture below is an aerial that shows the northern moving dunes pre-construction. In the third picture is the course aerial. In the fourth picture is the large moving dune overlaid on the course aerial. The large moving dune is now gone with part of the 12th, all of the 13th, and most of the 17th and the marramed rough covering the former moving dune. Looking at it today there is little sense of what was there just three years ago. There is a tinge of sadness in change.
Clearly there was a lot of shaping and sand movement to create the 12th, 13th and 17th.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/10568145516_b15bb599cb_c.jpg)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/10567405516_b3d6cb5e70_h.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7297/10567407586_2222f6a076_h.jpg)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2833/10567406656_452a2dfc87_h.jpg)
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Hole 12
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/10551786933_0f27e277d2_o.jpg)
As per the previous post, the 12th was mostly built on the moving dune and, consequently, I assume was largely a man made hole. So, what do we get - a second dog leg right in a row about 30 yards shorter than the 11th hole. The hole reverses direction and heads back south, so it was with the wind on this day.
From the tee, on a clear day, there is no doubt a nice view of the sea in the distance. The fairway is pretty flat and generously wide. The lack of flanking dunes on the left is probably the result of having to create a level fairway out of the moving dune. There doesn't seem to be much strategic advantage being to one side of the fairway or the other.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7308/10357366705_bd69967ced_o.jpg)
From the left side of the fairway, the second to the green looks fairly straightforward although there is some doubt about the dead ground in front of the green - how wide is it and how deep? The green appears to be and is built on the ground.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/10357369394_8623c82203_o.jpg)
As you walk up it becomes evident that the dead ground is a fairly broad and deep swale. It is evident that anything left and a little short will end up in a bunker or down the hill. And, there are the usual undulations to deal with in the front slope. The green itself has tiers and slopes from back right to front left. The approach to the green makes this hole a little more interesting than the preceding hole.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7311/10357363265_d6a249c95a_o.jpg)
From far to the left of the green you can see that the plantings to stabilize the moving dune is a work in progress. The small dunes in the foreground are likely man made. The pyramidal one in the foreground nicely matches the one above and right of it on the other side of the green.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/10357558763_145fdb1d3f_o.jpg)
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Greens sites are certainly very repetitive!!! Even though the 12th only has 3 bunkers it has always struck me as at least one too many. Looking at it now on Bryan's photos I still struggle to understand what the right hand side bunker is for.
Jon
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11th – This one I might have been inclined to leave out the front right bunker and make more of the short grass run-off on the entire right side…
But it’s easy to see things differently. Happens on every course.
Similarly Ally, the inclusion of the right bunker on the 11th puzzled me. Having advocated the inclusion of a bunker on a previous hole, my thinking here was exactly the same as yours. Quite possibly a popular view.
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Greens sites are certainly very repetitive!!!
They certainly appear so from the photos. Lots and lots of slightly awkward scalloping around the edges, mostly raised up. I get the impression (and perhaps those with experience can comment) that however firm it may play, these greens aren't goibng to encourage running the ball up.
Again, before anyone says it, I know I haven't seen it in the flesh and I know I need to.
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Mark,
The only person who would say that is Mucci and you can ignore him on this thread. I think your observation is correct. So far only the 2nd and the 8th and maybe the 10th (although most will be hitting a short iron in) would lend themselves to running shots.
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Hole 13
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2885/10551786663_c4a710fcb3_o.jpg)
After two mundane dogleg right par 4's we turn east and into a crosswind. This is the only hole that is outside of the general north south routing of the course. Whereas the front nine is basically out and back, the back nine changes direction four times. The routing on the back nine certainly provides more variety in dealing with the wind of the day.
The 12th is a medium long (to long to a back pin) par 3 across a broad valley. As per the previous posting this hole was created on the moving dune - hard to imagine what it looked like before, but it is tied in nicely now. On my day the wind was now more north-easterly so this hole played long into a lashing rain. This is yet another very good par 3 - Hawtree is batting three for three on the par 3's so far.
From the tee you can see there are more round pots to avoid. A running shot is possible but not likely to be attempted by anybody. The green slopes significantly from back to front and should be receptive to an aerial shot. This picture, being zoomed a bit makes the green appear closer than it does in person.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7394/10357365925_7026940034_o.jpg)
From short left of the green it sure looks like anything short or spinning is going to come back down the slope.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3696/10357367476_014734b9fd_o.jpg)
Looking back from behind the green to the tees in the far dunes you can see that the green has a couple of tiers as well as being significantly sloped.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7441/10357366215_7c31dd67ab_o.jpg)
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As per the previous posting this hole was created on the moving dune - hard to imagine what it looked like before, but it is tied in nicely now.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/capture1-1.jpg)
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/photo17.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/TI-2012-3.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/brianewen/media/Golf/TI-2012-3.jpg.html)
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Brian,
Are these pictures taken form the same perspective? The shape of the background dunes is different. Or, do you know where the first picture was taken from?
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Brian,
Are these pictures taken form the same perspective? The shape of the background dunes is different. Or, do you know where the first picture was taken from?
I think if you draw a line up from the two men walking in the background in the before picture, it would go through the green left of 13 now.
As per the previous posting this hole was created on the moving dune - hard to imagine what it looked like before, but it is tied in nicely now.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/capture1-1.jpg)
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/photo17.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/TI-2012-3.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/brianewen/media/Golf/TI-2012-3.jpg.html)
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Thanks Matthew. It looks possible.
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Hole 14
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5543/10586565946_0c0a1a27ea_o.jpg)
The 14th turns back to the North again and into the wind. It is, on the card, a medium length par 4, but the second is uphill, and into the wind it played longer to me. I had seen pictures from the tee previous to playing and was somewhat fearful of what looked in pictures like an impossibly narrow ribbon of fairway surrounded by imposing lost ball dunes. The reality, in person, is that hole is relatively short and the fairway is about 45 yards wide. On the other hand if you miss the fairway you are likely lost ball dead.
From the tee the carry looks intimidating, but is not all that great. Missing side to side in the massive dunes is more of a concern, particularly into the wind which accentuates any hook or slice. No doubt there are nice views from this tee on less rainy and misty days.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3750/10357556123_ff04bdf8fe_o.jpg)
The fairway ascends to the green but has few undulations until you get near the green. You can run a shot in as long as you avoid the one pot bunker right. Although it looks level from here there is a bit of dead ground near the green and a bit of a rise to the green. There are runoffs left back and right.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7333/10357366716_836fcf77ee_o.jpg)
From closer in you can see the dead ground, some contouring in the approach and the rise to the green. The green is significantly tilted with some ridges included.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5485/10357556913_5842d1d045_o.jpg)
From behind the green looking back, the fairway looks generous enough now that you've passed it. The contouring and tilt of the green is more evident. You can see some more cutting back of the marram grass on the side of the dune, presumably to increase the playability. Oh, and it appears that they mow the greens in the afternoon and in the rain.
All in all this is a good golf hole in a spectacular setting.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/10357366026_12c2cbfd89_o.jpg)
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Continued great stuff, Bryan, particularly those before and after photos of the lands of the shifting dunes. I'm actually amazed that they were able to stabilise the dunes and create such interesting holes in their place. I suppose that a pure minimalist (if he or she would even take on the job) could have made that area into a series of "Hell's one and a half Acres" horror shows, but nobody would ever finish the course and players like you who drew god's short straw and had to play in the wind and the rain might be wondering if Hell might not have been a better alternative choice for your holiday. But getting back to the golf....
Having played it in dry (if windy) conditions, I found 11 to be a very good golf hole. There is mystery off the tee, but it is clear that the closer you hug the right the better chance you have of reaching the green unscathed. From our White tees, a good drive down the right into the 2 club wind was sufficient to find a spot where it was possible to reach the green in two, but a solid and straight strike was required and I proved that solid and slightly corrked (to the right) was just not good enough. As it turned out, I ended up on short grass and the bottom of the deep swale on the right, parallel to a pin cut close to the right hand side at the top of the rise. I wished I had cut the ball more and ended up in the front right hand bunker. That's what that bunker is--a bailout. I like "bailout" bunkers and I liked this hole. Easily 2** for me, even though I took 4 shots from 30 feet away to finish with a 6...
12 reminds me a lot of the 13th at Castle Stuart. A mid-length uppish hill tee shot with high dunes on the right, making you wonder how hard and how right you should hit it to carry the dunes to the hidden fairway. I was told by my partners that if you hit a safe tee shot to the left you have a manageable but difficult and longer shot to a smallish and well-guarded green, but as I carved my tee shot high and right, I never had a chance to verify their observations. One of my partners miraculously found my ball in a not completely unplayble tuft of marram grass and I clunked a choked down 9-iron straight but so low that I was sure I had another crap lie awaiting me in the dunes, but apparently I just cleared the gunged and trundled the ball to 25-feet from the pin. My 3-stab was poetic justice.
13 is (as Bryan says) a really, really good short hole with what must be a spectacular view from the back and high black tees at 229 in the dunes looking straight out over the North Sea. From the front it is not chopped liver either, and one of my playing partners hit short left and (as Bryan predicted) ended up about 50 yards short of the green as his ball took a classic John Kirk roll from near inertia to inevitable gravitational placement. I hit my shot lefter and farther than him, but short of the sleft bunker and was rewarded with inertia and a shot for two with my putter. One of my partners got his 3 and the marvelous variety of the other outcomes leads me to give this hole 3***.
14 (at least from the 370 or so Whites) is interesting rather than intimidating, but there are choices off the tee (the bold line left is the best), and the false front/dead ground adds uncertainty and spice to the 2nd shot. A solid 2**.
Only 4 holes to go, Bryan--keep up the good work!
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Rhic,
Thanks for the continuing commentary. I love your take on these holes, but, 2** for the 11th?!? Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
I wonder if you played a different 12th than I did. I could see the sea from the tee, so kind of thought it was a little downhill and, there didn't seem to me to be a hidden fairway to the right. Perhaps your partner was having you on about cutting the right side. Having bailed out left I can confirm that the angle was worse over there but the distance was not so great and the shot was downwind. Did this hole not attract any Rhicelin *'s? I thought it was more interesting than the previous hole.
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Hole 15
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/10586565646_6795e86720_o.jpg)
The 15th continues northerly to the furthest north point of the property. It is a short par 4, but not drivable, at least for me and I suspect most all golfers. I must admit that when I was thinking about the course over dinner that night that I couldn't conjure up images of the hole. I had to look at the yardage guide and pictures to refresh my short term memory. Not sure what this means. :-\
It took me a minute on the tee to locate the green in the mist and rain. The fairway cut and and bunkering took my eye off to the right and the fairway lobe over there persuaded me that the green must be up to the right in the dunes. After checking the yardage book to figure out how the bunkers came into play and peering through the misty gloom I figured out the green was really off slightly to the left.
I am mystified about the first set of five pots. Mucci would call them vestigial features given they were only 160 to 190 yards off the tee. I can't imagine that very many players out there would not easily get over them off the tee, assuming they were on the proper tee and they didn't foozle the shot. Perhaps they are there just to provide some visual distraction in an otherwise very wide and flat fairway.
Hard to believe that the right side of this fairway was once a part of the northernmost small moving dune.
From the tee, the fairway looks very wide with what looks like a significant bail out area to the right, up into the dunes. After figuring out the first set of pots are not in play there needs to be a decision about what line to play. I think that right is probably the better angle to the green, although downwind I imagine the further pot on the right must be accounted for. Anyone trying to get close to the green downwind will need to consider the single pot further down left on the direct line to the green although it is not visible from (at least the White) tee as you can see in the second zoomed photo.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/10357554743_0259051780_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3702/10357555333_2e4198b6db_o.jpg)
From past the vestigial bunkers, the second shot is clearly better the further right you are. The green is more on grade than most and will accept a running shot although most everyone will be playing a wedge of some sort in here. For those attempting to drive the green, there is definitely room to run a drawing drive in but the fairway pot and the green side pot on the left could definitely come into play and look quite penal.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3771/10357366184_8356b7ea50_o.jpg)
From behind the green, the hole and green look benign. Perhaps others with a different experience can describe the challenge or interest of the hole. To me it looks like a birdie hole (although I didn't) or certainly an easy par.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/10357365894_af3c801e49_o.jpg)
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I like the 15th. Lots of width, more low profile, narrow green - smallest on the course.
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What are the X's on the yardage guide?
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When I look at the aeriel as well as the pictures, I see stunning pictures of dunescape and sandy patches.
Now I know it's a windy area (I'm pretty familiar with windy areas) but I'm stunned at how jarring those(many) round pot bunkers jump off the page.
Was there no other way via landforms, undulation (both natural and created) or more natural looking bunkers to creat playing strategy?
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Jason,
The X's are where I hit the ball. You weren't supposed to notice those. :-[ Needless to say I didn't seem to play as well as Rhic, although it sounds like I putted better.
__________________________
Jeff,
Just wait until you see the 18th.
Sure there must have been other ways via landforms, undulation (both natural and created) or more natural looking bunkers to create playing strategy. The course was clearly manufactured, so they could have manufactured using the approaches you suggest. I'd guess that Trump and Hawtree wanted revetted pot bunkers to imbue the course with what might be popularly seen as an archetypal Scottish links feature. Certainly most American visitors will be stunned by the pot bunkers - they're so different from home.
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Hole 16
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7439/10586565166_3670cffaa1_o.jpg)
The 16th reverses direction and once again goes south, heading home for the last three holes. It is the last of four very good par 3's, although this one is no doubt the least spectacular of the four. As you can see in the yardage guide above the different tees give quite different angles to the green. The gold and blue offering quite different looks for instance.
From the tee the hole reminds me of the principles of the 12th at ANGC with the angled green and the pots standing in for Rae's Creek. The hole is of medium length for a par 3 reminding me that all the par 3's, from the White tees, are of a similar length. None are real short, nor are any real long. Even from the tips, the par 3's will be quite manageable for big hitters and professional players. High winds could of course change that view.
I'm not sure about the two pots out to the right - maybe they protect a right pin from the gold tees?
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/10357390344_ea53667b7f_o.jpg)
From the front right corner of the green you can see the relative flatness of the green.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3694/10357390096_9c593e604d_o.jpg)
And another look at the green from behind looking back toward the tees. There is a little crease to the left and just in front of the hole from this angle. A relatively unique low profile feature I haven't seen before.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5531/10357580773_264296917f_o.jpg)
And, a look across the green on my putt track where the track illustrates the fold in the green. Sadly the birdie putt lipped out. I did learn that long was OK on this green. The surround is level with the green.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3667/10357388775_50a74261a2_o.jpg)
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Again, when I first saw it I thought a very good par 3 but hopelessly over bunkered. It would be better for the removal of the two right hand bunkers and the first, third & last bunkers could also go.
Jon
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Using sod wall bunkers on British links courses didn't initially arise as some fashion trend. The style came about through functional reasons alone. That's a point worth remembering.
That all said though, I agree with the general premise on bunkers stated in the last few posts.
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I thought the 16th was an excellent par-3.
No doubt it had the least drama in terms of visuals and for that reason I think the bunkers were used (and I agree over-used) to jazz it up when more short grass run-off to the left would have worked fine.
But the green (plus green site) and angles worked superbly.
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I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with The Open rota 'traditional links' style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in-between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.
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I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.
I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?
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I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.
I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?
Util the next R&A director decides to back to a more historic and natural look for the Open bunkers ....... :)
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I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.
I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?
Util the next R&A director decides to back to a more historic and natural look for the Open bunkers ....... :)
Always possible, of course. But not exactly a foregone conclusion!
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Sure
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I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.
I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?
Actually, I believe both Tom's presumption and your follow-up affirmation are false. I recall asking Caspar Graubelle and some of the contractor folks from SOL exactly that question and their answer was that "Martin wanted continuity of aesthetic, and Trump did like them, but didn't "request" them all to be revetted pots.
Sure, The Donald definitely wants to host major events. Heck, he even put Cat-5 wiring out across the course to facilitate just that, but I don't believe it's fair to tag him for the similarity of all the bunkers.
Cheers!
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For my time, despite the once again jarring bunker numbers, the 16th was the best short hole. No reinventing the wheel, just solid golf allowing wind to play a maximum role. My only issue other than sand is the similarity to the angle of the 17th green.
Ciao
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Oh, don't get me wrong Steve, I doubt very much that Trump said to Martin 'I want revetted pots'. But I am certain he said 'Design me a course that could hold an Open Championship' and from that the decision to build bunkers that way is basically automatic.
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This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall. I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.
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Oh, don't get me wrong Steve, I doubt very much that Trump said to Martin 'I want revetted pots'. But I am certain he said 'Design me a course that could hold an Open Championship' and from that the decision to build bunkers that way is basically automatic.
Adam,
I concur 1000% when put that way. My belief is that Trump had less to do with the design outcome here than other's in his portfolio. Hawtree, et.al. went at it with smooth hand of listening to Trump, then going ahead and doing pretty much what they intended. What I do think is most interesting is that Trump seems to be highly responsive to those who make constructive criticisms of this course, i.e. the implantation of fescue replacing ryegrass. Ultimately, I'd hardly be shocked to see a small # of pots filled in or slightly repositioned. This property is Trump's golf legacy and people close to him believe he'll do most anything reasonable to get it "perfect."
At Doral, sources close to the project tell me that Donald got along wonderfully with Gil & Jim and didn't try to impose any personal will on their redesign. Some knowledgable fans, familiar with original Dick Wilson design think the result looks spectacular.
It'll be quite interesting to see what occurs over the next few years at TS. In the hands of John Bambury, I'll wager only good things.
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This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall. I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.
Indeed. Bryan's photo thread of Kiawah Ocean, while shorter in length/pages, is also a favorite of mine:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51074.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51074.0.html)
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This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall. I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.
+1
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This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall. I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.
I agree, Jason. It is very refreshing.
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Hole 17
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/10586564756_9d8efdfb8b_o.jpg)
The 17th is a longish par 4 that continues southerly and uphill towards home. In retrospect, it seems to me that one design attribute that is consistent with holding important tournaments on the course is the ordering of the holes. The first two holes on each nine are a relatively easy par 5 followed by a relatively easy par 4. It sort of reminded me of TPC Sawgrass in regard of being an equal start for a split tee event. At the same time the last two holes on each nine are real testers. It would be interesting to see how the 17th and 18th might separate the leaders coming down the stretch. In the prevailing wind, 17 and 18 would be into the wind, adding to the challenge. The 17th is totally manufactured, residing a sit does on what was the moving dune.
From the tee the green is set off to the left (right at the edge of the first picture) and the two fairway pot bunkers seem to be saying "carry me" to get the short way home. The carry yardage seems on the edge of doable. But, I think it is a sirens' song. Tug it even a bit left and you'll be down the embankment into nasty stuff. The second shot will be manageable for most even if you goto the right edge of the fairway and the angle from there is arguably better. The fairway is a generous 60 yards wide just short of the bunkers and narrows to a still reasonable 40 yards to the side of the bunkers.
Having snapped a hook down into the low area left off the tee, I am happy to report that there is at least one area of the rough where you can search for your ball, find it and gouge it back out.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/10357577423_72826f9c0b_o.jpg)
Zoomed in from the tee gives you a better appreciation of where the green is. I can just imagine the prevailing southerly wind coming ripping off the North Sea, over those low dunes in the background, and in your face trying to play up this hole. Looking at the pictures now, I can't help but wonder if an awesome skyline green could have been created here.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7373/10357386015_97f85b58ff_o.jpg)
From the middle of the fairway you can see the undulations built into the fairway and the use of a menacing pot bunker in the face of the green. The runoff up the left side of the angled green is obviously threatening as well.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5520/10357387296_7c3cf22408_o.jpg)
Zooming in from the left side and then the right side it is apparent that approaching from the right is preferred. You can see more clearly here some more of the repetitive ridge and hollows on the green runoffs.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5492/10357390074_ff4bd99774_o.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5523/10357579533_d18bd40e8c_o.jpg)
From the front right corner of the green you can see the tilt and movement of what looks like it will be a difficult green. And, more ridges and hollows up the right side of the green.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5533/10357388704_bb4dd0c285_o.jpg)
Looking back across the green to the tee gives another perspective of the green contours, including another little crease running across between the flag and the camera. The uphill nature of the hole is more evident, as is the proximity to the fairway of the gully along the left edge of the fairway (right side of the picture).
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2860/10357388484_3982ae755f_o.jpg)
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Finally a hole where I think they got the bunkering right and at the very least didn't over bunker. Bryan, I think you are correct to wonder how good a skyline green might have been created. Once again we see a lack of imagination in the green surrounds.
Jon
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The 17th is another really good hole.
The gully down the left is well received, the bunkering is good, the sweeping dogleg gently uphill works nicely and the created swales and hollows to the right side of the green are less sharp with more space. A really strong penultimate hole.
I think you are splitting hairs focusing on a "skyline" green. In essence, the dunes at the back are very low lying and don't really detract from the visuals. I suspect they are there mainly to create some separation from the 13th green (especially whilst playing 13) which is sited close behind this one.
Interestingly, whilst walking with Caspar Grauballe through construction, he was questioning whether he would leave a skyline fairway or not (on the far right side from the tee). At the time I though he should as it would have created a long view and something different. That view would have been to the Aberdeen cityscape beyond. Upon reflection, I think the architects made the right decision in building some low dunescape in its place.
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Finally a hole where I think they got the bunkering right and at the very least didn't over bunker. Bryan, I think you are correct to wonder how good a skyline green might have been created. Once again we see a lack of imagination in the green surrounds.
Jon
Jon,
This hole, like Brian says, might well have turned out better with a skyline green....it's wishful, yet insightful, thinking.
You make a consistent criticism of "lack of imagination in the green surrounds." I've played the course a good number of times and couldn't disagree with that statement more fervently. I don't know how many times you've gone round, in what different conditions, but a decent eye can't help but notice all the rolling with abandon movements aside most of the greens. What sort of imagination is missing? Please elaborate for us.
There are plenty of hillocks, humps and crowned off sections that present enormous doses of challenge and fun for a recovery from a missed approach. What else did you expect Hawtree to put in there, windmills, clowns mouths , tombs????? It's a ridiculous claim to make especially when the Bryan's camera reveals all the movements surrounding a preponderance of greens. Much more would have been borderline silly.
Others have chimed in that they like some features at Castle Stuart better and I respect that, however, while some holes there have wonderful greenside movements, quite a few have near zero! I think what you may be revealing is your distaste for greens set beneath or aside the dunes. While some holes do accomplish this, many are indeed set down into a dunes-like amphitheater so as to allow for play in the harsh North Sea winds.
Interestingly, a good deal of others with notable eyes took a completely different positions. The likes of Brad Klein, Golf's Most Beloved, Geoff Shackleford, Joe Passov and others all disagree emphatically with your bias to dislike this course. Are you a superior critic to them?? I know I'm certainly not. We all know by now what distaste you have for this project, but aren't we all better off encouraging others to decide for themselves?
This photo thread has been terrific for informing many who'll make a decision to play here. Having an opinion without the basis of fact to back it up is little more than naked disparagement and this thread should remain marvelously free of such.
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I think you are splitting hairs focusing on a "skyline" green. In essence, the dunes at the back are very low lying and don't really detract from the visuals. I suspect they are there mainly to create some separation from the 13th green (especially whilst playing 13) which is sited close behind this one.
Interestingly, whilst walking with Caspar Grauballe through construction, he was questioning whether he would leave a skyline fairway or not (on the far right side from the tee). At the time I though he should as it would have created a long view and something different. That view would have been to the Aberdeen cityscape beyond. Upon reflection, I think the architects made the right decision in building some low dunescape in its place.
Ally
Interesting comment. I was thinking of this hole when previous threads were talking about the views on the course and how a few "windmills" miles out to sea were going to spoil them. I remeber well the view of the skyline and while not offended by it, its certainly not the prettiest. There might have been merit in a skyline fairway to put uncertainty in the mind of the first time golfer at Balmedie as to whether there was trouble over the skyline or whatever. Either way they kind came up with a half way house, neither skyline or hidden view.
Niall
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16th hole - late to the discussion but basically agree with most comment. A very good solid golf hole thats oer bunkered. If it was me I would lose the back two bunkers on the left, keep the middle two but morph them into a single bunker, and turn the front left bunker into a bank that allowed a strong running approach but deflected a weaker shot into the single bunker. I think that would not only be aesthetically more appealing but also makes more subtle rather than the boom or bust shot at the moment.
The two bunkers on the right I'd keep as they give those looking to play safe to the right something to think about. And again some very nice internal green contours. Now who do I send my design fee to ?
Niall
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Rhic,
Thanks for the continuing commentary. I love your take on these holes, but, 2** for the 11th?!? Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
I wonder if you played a different 12th than I did. I could see the sea from the tee, so kind of thought it was a little downhill and, there didn't seem to me to be a hidden fairway to the right. Perhaps your partner was having you on about cutting the right side. Having bailed out left I can confirm that the angle was worse over there but the distance was not so great and the shot was downwind. Did this hole not attract any Rhicelin *'s? I thought it was more interesting than the previous hole.
Hi Bryan
Vis a vis the 11th, I really liked the fact that I could hit two reasonably good shots, get my ball pin high and then wonder how the hell I was going to get up and down in 3. I think it is a fascinatingly complex hole which would probably play very differently from the left hand side of the fairway. I'll stick with 2** but reserve the right to change after my next play. As for the 12th, the 2nd shot is definitely downhill, but the tee shot demands height, particularly if you are trying to dut the right corner. There was no "hidden fairway" where my high fade landed which was near the top of the right hand dunes in land that the architect never considered to be part of his design. The fact that I hacked it out of the high dunes to 25 feet or so makes it a memorable hole to me, but overall I'd stuggle to give it 1* even if I had played it as designed.
Now onto the finishing holes. Firstly *SENIOR MOMENT ALERT*!
My brief discussion of what I called the 14th was in fact my recollection of the 15th. The real 14th is a brute of a hole that reminds me of the best holes at Murcar and Balgownie. I probably forgot about it because my drive went right into Pro V1x heaven and I had to chuck a ball into the light rough and then hack my way uphill to something resembling a 7. That being said, the demands off the tee and the rolling fairway and the simple complexity of the green make me want to give the hole 2**. As the Dodgers used to say, Wait 'til Next Year! But now onto the finish...
I've discussed 15 above (while thinking it was 14). It's a hole you can think of birdie but struggle for par. A nice medium length hole that gives you a break from the driver/3-wood experience. 16 is a hole that really suits my eye. Again over-bunkered, but the pits serve to focus your mind on task at hand, which is to deal with the offset green though either a soft draw or a high fade. To me it's a bit redannish, and would be a beast from the back tees into a south wind. Bryan and I were fortunate enough to hae a north wind on this hole, and from the front tees it was a doddle. Nevertheless, I give it 2**.
17 downwind is manageable--drive it down the right and then take advantage of the good angle to the green--,but if they put the pin directly behind the solitary greenside bunker to the left, pin point accuracy is required to get your ball near the hole. One of my playing partners landed pin high but ended up with an 80 foot putt from the back of the green. I hit a wedge that hit the top of the bunker and then spun back into the sand. We both took 5s. This green is long and undulating, and into the wind, particular from the black tees (466) it would be very difficult to get your bal close. Another 2**.
As did Bryan, I played the 18th from the whites and downwind, but it was still 586 yards, and off the tee you had the choice of laying up right or going down a left channel and hoping you do not overdraw your ball into reeds and wetlands. If you do either thing safely, your next shot is facing a phalanx of bunkers, separated by not completely obvious safe zones. As a newbie I whacked my driver and ended up in light rough just outside the far right bunker. From there a very good 5-iron (best of my past 3-4 years--where did that come from?) left me with solid 7-iron distance to the middle of the green. I personally can't see why anybody would not play short of the driveable bunkers, then short of the nest of bunkers starting at 130 from the front, but I am not a pro. I'd love to see a real player play this hole, even from where I played it and in my wind. As for the back tees, which are a 50 foot climb from the 17th green, and measure 651, I wonder what the best players in the world would do from there, particularly in even a moderate south wind. Holes like this that make me wonder, get 3*** as does Tiggles 18.
Rich
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For mine, 17 is hands down the best hole on the course. We cxan quibble about skyline stuff, but that would be another raised green - no thanks. As it is, this green sits quite naturally on a ridge - superb and sublime.
Ciao
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Thanks all for the continued commentary.
Rich, you played on ahead on 18. I haven't gotten there at my measured pace. After I get there, I'd like to hear from you about how many Rhichelin *'s the course got in total and how that total might fit in in your rating system.
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Jon,
I wouldn't call it a lack of imagination in the green surrounds but rather a repetitiveness of the elevated green with ridges and hollows. All things said and done I think that the greens and green complexes are a strength of the course although somewhat repetitive. I am also more used to and in love with the ability to run the ball on to links greens, something that is not overly evident at TIGLS.
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Ally,
I wasn't splitting hairs on the thought of a skyline green. It was merely a thought. I think many of us, in looking at golf courses, think about how things might have been different. It doesn't mean it would have been better. I'm curious about the possibility of an Aberdeen cityscape view off to the right (or I assume from the 18th high tee)? There was certainly no view on my day there, but the city is miles away and the cityscape would have to be quite muted. Here's a picture from the south end of the property looking south to Aberdeen.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/10628214735_127eb2602b_c.jpg)
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Niall,
See my comment above re the view of Aberdeen. The windfarm would have been totally unseen on this day. And, I suspect not very noticeable even on a clear day.
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Steve,
Re your comments to Jon about the lack of imagination, I took his comments as being about repetitiveness of elevated greens and hollows and ridges in the surrounds. I thought that there were repetitive features. For me, a few more greens on grade would have been better, but that's just an opinion. Jon will no doubt speak for himself.
The likes of Brad Klein, Golf's Most Beloved, Geoff Shackleford, Joe Passov and others all disagree emphatically with your bias to dislike this course. Are you a superior critic to them?? I know I'm certainly not.
I haven't found Jon's comments generally expressing distaste for the course itself or disruptive of this thread. Re the quote above, I think all of us who have had the experience can have opinions, regardless of what the superior critics think. I thought, for instance, that Ran's love poem to the course was a little over the top given what I saw on the course. But, that's what makes the world go around - a variety of opinions.
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Sean,
No quibble intended. It was merely a deranged thought in retrospect. The green is kind of raised relative to its surrounds, a lot on the left side and a bit on the right side, although I agree that it is nicely sited. I do like the hole. Perhaps at the end of the thread, if anyone is interested, we can have a discussion about best hole, worst hole etc. I'm sure there would be a wide range of views.
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I am with Sean - I feel 17 is without doubt the best hole on the course. Great green site, really good green, strategically interesting. The front pin is brutal and it sets a very interesting question as to the safest place to miss.
I didn't get chance to comment on 15, but that's another hole I love. Much better from the tees on the left of the wetland; also with the following breeze. Loads of options from the tee - I really like it.
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(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/10628214735_127eb2602b_c.jpg)
One of the more unpleasant aspects of playing the back-9 at Royal Aberdeen plus the 1st, 3rd and last few holes at Murcar is the views back over the city what with the white tower block flats, Mastrick tower etc. From this photo you can see them so although I'm not usually fond of eye-candy, I would say that at least this lower 17th green site has scenic benefit.
All the best.
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Steve,
by lack of imagination I was not referring to any individual green but rather the respective over use of the raised greens with a fall off on a substantial part of the green surrounds. There are too few greens built at grade or even in a dell but that is just my opinion. I think that the 17th at TOC is one of the best holes I have ever played yet I think I would find a course which was this same hole 18 times in a row would be lacking in imagination. Whilst I have seen and walked most of the course on several occasions I have not played it as of yet and will probably not unless the greenfee is substantially lower.
I think if you read through my posts you will find that although I have been very critical of how the project has been handled and some of the shenanigans that have gone on that I have been positive on the whole about the course and have stated my hope that it succeeds on more than one occasion. That I chose to be critical of certain things does not make me the course hater you seem to see me as.
Whilst you are correct that certain very eminent GCA experts have waxed lyrical about the course there have also been those who have been critical. I think that the manner and tone in which you chose to address my comments does you no credit. Talk of clowns and windmills is not the way to go if you want someone to take your comments seriously. I hope that at some point we can meet and am sure you will find that our view points are not so far apart.
If you attempt to see where the other opinion is coming from and try to bring across your passion and positivity about the course rather than being negative and rude about the person you might have more success.
Jon
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Hole 16
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/10357390344_ea53667b7f_o.jpg)
I agree with others who have stated they feel the hole is overbunkered. However, for me, I find the near identical shape, size and orientation (as shown in this photo) of the bunkering to be more offensive.
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Hole 16
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/10357390344_ea53667b7f_o.jpg)
I agree with others who have stated they feel the hole is overbunkered. However, for me, I find the near identical shape, size and orientation (as shown in this photo) of the bunkering to be more offensive.
almost seems unfathomable that such an amazing landscape and setting could be overshadowed.
Were they worried Mrs. Befuvnik was going to overpower the hole with her ground game? ::) ::)
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Hole 16
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/10357390344_ea53667b7f_o.jpg)
I agree with others who have stated they feel the hole is overbunkered. However, for me, I find the near identical shape, size and orientation (as shown in this photo) of the bunkering to be more offensive.
almost seems unfathomable that such an amazing landscape and setting could be overshadowed.
Were they worried Mrs. Befuvnik was going to overpower the hole with her ground game? ::) ::)
Indeed the more I look at this photo and reflect on when I saw the green on site I am more convinced it really only needs the very middle bunker of the seven and the rest just reduce the shot options/stratergy.
Jon
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Jon,
Your clarified opinion about "too many raised greens with a fall off " is a quite fair and reasonable critique. I'm not sure I totally agree (although it's clear quite a few share such feature to some degree). Personally, I believe Hawtree, et.al. did so to help define/defend the greens amidst their settings into the pockets of those towering dunes. A Doak, C&C, or DMK, would have likely never embraced those extreme edges, instead deploying a few false fronts in replace. I also concur that there is no doubt the design is somewhat over littered with a few too many identically shaped pots. Interestingly, a sharp eye might have the same to say about a Carnoustie, Lytham, et.al upon closer examination.
My refrain about those "very eminent GCA'ers" was a deliberate and blatant attempt to remind people that much more experienced and analytic eyes than mine (and most others.... I'd wager) were delightfully surprised and impressed with these 18 holes. All cited unanimously agreed that in sum, this course was very, very strong design in a spectacular setting for golf. Not one was weighted down with some inherited bias about the supposed suspect process that led to it's creation. Most were previously inclined to not give it's very public owner much of a benefit of doubt. This is and should remain a ringing endorsement for folks to get out and see it for themselves. I ask you if you genuinely believe the net naysayers can honestly get past their dislike for either the owner or the evolutionary process to see the course with clear focus?
As you say, the majority of those comments you've posted have taken this course to task, albeit with an occasional rejoinder about a wistful hope that it now succeeds. You may not appreciate my tone or manner, nor my questions of windmills and clowns, but the level of nitpicking that this otherwise very good design gets from those whose homeland biases remain evident is often overwhelming. I apologize if I've offended you and perhaps I crossed the line of literal civility, however, so very many lurkers view these photo essays and remember only the rebukes of all things Trump, thus tainting their perspective without the opportunity to see for themselves. Also, if you feel I've wrongly lumped you into "the course haters," I apologize for that and will try ever so diligently to avoid such.
You are most probably correct that we'd likely enjoy one another's company on any links. I hope one of these days we can do just that.
Lastly, I'd ask you a few questions about your recent critique of #16. If you retain just the center bunker and remove the flanking ones, are you not making the hole substantially easier and allowing for misses to be rewarded? Poorly hit shots can find par or even birdie with a stroke of luck. Depending on the pin placement, doesn't the angular placement of this green demand the golfer to "bite off as much risk they can try to muster?" IMO, Hawtree has used these bunkers to retain the symmetry of his demands across all the par 3's. Each side has one full-on aerial request and one with ground approach optionality. Isn't that a relatively good balance across the group? Your game (and many others no doubt) might well prefer the ground approach option, but the general theory behind a competitive/championship level design is to test the golfer's resolve, not reward the apprehensive. Again, I don't disagree about a few too many pots, especially across the par 5's and heaven knows I think the 18th could do with a few less, but holes like 16, 17, 11 and 12 on the back seem perfectly bunkered to my eye and swing.
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Steve,
thanks for the interesting reply. I think the following quotes show where you have gotten your opinion of my supposed attitude towards the course
I wrote earlier
I think if you read through my posts you will find that although I have been very critical of how the project has been handled and some of the shenanigans that have gone on that I have been positive on the whole about the course and have stated my hope that it succeeds on more than one occasion
from which you conclude
As you say, the majority of those comments you've posted have taken this course to task, albeit with an occasional rejoinder about a wistful hope that it now succeeds
How you reach that conclusion is a real mystery to me. I do not think it is a fair or balanced conclusion. Maybe you have a preconceived idea about what I will say and you read what you want/expect to see rather than what is there.
In relation to the raised nature of many of the greens you say:
Personally, I believe Hawtree, et.al. did so to help define/defend the greens amidst their settings into the pockets of those towering dunes.
This may be true I do not know but my experience of links golf is that the course is not defined in such a way as to stand apart/out from its surroundings but rather blends in with its surroundings so as to appear one with the land it is laid out on.
As to hole sixteen
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/10357390344_ea53667b7f_o.jpg)
Is making a hole easier really so negative? Making a par or even a birdie through a stroke of luck is something that happens often and even has its own name 'rub of the green'. It is something that belongs to the game and is one of its charms and attractions. A course with no rub of the green would be very dull and indeed this hole give ample opportunity for it. What happens if my poorly struck shot lands between two bunker and bounces on to the green any way? I for one do not see it as a negative.
To me the line of bunkers force the golfer to hit an areal shot to exclusion of all other options. Yes it is heroic but it is also one dimensional. I wonder how you would play this hole in summer, with firm greens and a strong wind behind. Such a scenario calls for a shot played short and to run up. This option does not exist and so any shot clearing the bunkers will run through.
By removing all but the middle bunker are you making the hole easier?
laying from the angle of the photo the two left most bunkers would become banking which would deflect the ball further away from the putting surface leaving the player with a tricky bump and run or lofted shot to get the ball close to the hole but a more manageable shot for the less accomplished player to simply find the green. The average player would find these two bunkers very difficult if not beyond their capabilities given the depth and steepness of face.
removing bunkers 4 & 5 allows for a running shot through an opening wide enough for some margin for error. However, a weakly hit shot would probably end up in the middle bunker(3) or short of the green and so be penalised.
The two right most bunkers removal would simply mean a shot hit there would leave the golfer facing a tough downhill shot from the fringe which would be no piece of cake.
To me it appears as though this hole was designed to force the golfer to play one particular shot to the point of excluding all other possibilities.
Jon
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The Quote function has not really been working of late!
"To me it appears as though this hole was designed to force the golfer to play one particular shot to the point of excluding all other possibilities.
Jon"
Isn't this critique true of many of the holes here and typical of the "modern golf links" approach taken by e.g. Pat Ruddy.
The question in my mind is...
Is this a valid way to test the modern game where equipment favours the production of a high spinning ball where courses can be attacked via an aerial route and therefore greens need to be pushed in design so the slight miss hit will be rejected,
OR
is this a way to provide a memorable test for a the target audience of paying golfers who predominantly can only hit a high ball?
I hope I'm clear here. In the first example it's a valid way of defending the course, in the second the kind of golfer who will play the course hasn't got the skills or imagination to run the ball up to a green therefore there's no reason to provide this option?
Despite Steve's concern that we are factoring too much Trump into judging the merits of THIS golf course, I do feel the Donald understands his target audience and how they want to play.
Great thread.
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Tony,
I too have been having problems with the quote function.
I do not want anyone to miss understand me. I am not saying that this hole is a bad hole but it is only a good hole if you can hit a certain shot. I would have no problem with this hole except in a strong following wind but my Dad would have really struggled. For him, it would have been a lay it up in the long stuff and hope for a decent lie.
I agree that many of the players here will play a high shot game but ask whether this is justification for removal of the ground game. Links golf is all about option and the ground game is a big part of that. IMO the best courses also allow players of any standard to get round them which is why I think TOC, Alwoodley or Royal Birkdale are great courses but dislike the modern incarnation of Carnoustie and holes such as the Postage Stamp.
I just think this is a hole that would be more challenging with fewer bunkers.
Jon
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Jon,
I'm OK with the hole as it is with all the bunkers, although I do agree with you that the ground game has been rendered moot on this hole, although that could be said about other holes on the course as well. If the prime imperative in building the course was to build a championship course then this hole makes perfect sense. As you say, it will require the pros to play an aerial shot If it's downwind it will be a challenge for them to any front pin. Whether it's into the wind or with the wind it also challenges the best players with choosing the right club for the line they choose (the same as the 12th at ANGC). If the design makes it difficult for us lesser players, then maybe we're just collateral damage on this hole.
Thinking about other links courses and par 3 greens that can't be run up, I immediately thought of the 10th at Royal Dornoch - a pretty good hole. I also noticed a green at Gullane #2 that looks eerily similar to the 16th at TIGLS. Both are classic designs, so the concept is not foreign to links courses, although I think it is much more common on "championship" American courses.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/10666521826_293d1b2b9f_c.jpg)
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Bryan,
I agree with all your sentiments. I have been a consistent critic of the 10th at RD and have long said the removal of the front bunker would improve the hole quite a bit. I think the difference with the example you have photo'd is that there is the option to play short of and if played from the middle of the fairway (photo is shown from right rough) it is possible, though not easy to thread a running shot through the bunkers.
Whilst I am not saying it is a bad hole it is limited in the challenge it presents. That there are other similar holes does not lessen or improve it.
Jon
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I disagree about the ground game option at #16. I watched a guy bang one between the bunkers and use the back slope to bring his ball back onto the green from the white markers. The shorter markers on this hole all allow for some leeway. It is the longer markers further left which are purely aerial unless someone wants to get needlessly funky for some reason. I think this hole is superior Dornoch's 10th. I once read a member say that a legitimate way to play the hole downwind was to bounce over the bunkers. How daft is that?
Ciao
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Hole 18
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/10586564306_3ae80e6fed_o.jpg)
Walking from the 17th green , past the 13th green, we arrive, through another refined rye grass path between two small dunes at the 18th tee. As we arrive, you get one of the better views across the mammoth dunes to the North Sea.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/10357384496_c84d91707d_o.jpg)
From the tee, the hole is all laid out in front of you, albeit with so much going on that it takes a little time to process all the inputs - two ponds on the left, the usual marram rough to the right, and bunkers seemingly everywhere. As a very long par 5, it seems like Hawtree tried his hardest to create a hole that would be a fitting challenge as the closing hole for a major championship. Would anybody, with a championship on the line actually have a go at this green in two to set up a birdie? For the rest of us it is an almost mandatory three shot hole and in that manner a little less interesting.
From the tee, the question is where to place the drive. Especially into the prevailing wind, not very many would be able to carry the first set of four bunkers which are arranged in a Bottle Hole fashion. There doesn't seem to be any particular strategic advantage to going left or right other than choosing whether to flirt with the marram rough right or the pond left.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7349/10357575763_7fb5a25b1a_o.jpg)
Zoomed in from the tee, most of the seventeen bunkers are visible, as is the roof of the hospitality tent.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3820/10357384365_ef67ee4186_o.jpg)
From the fairway level, on the left side, and past the first set of bunkers you can see some of the crossing bunkers although many remain hidden. Laying up short of the two bunkers that are closest seems like the most prudent play, leaving a third shot of some 150 yards to the green. You could attempt to carry those two bunkers, especially to the left where there appears to be a bailout area, with your second shot, but is a third shot of 80 or 100 yards significantly better to take on the risk.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3740/10357386994_9793e0f57f_o.jpg)
From the two bunkers at 120 yards from the green, the plethora of ten bunkers, short of the green are in your face. There are two more, one to the right and one back right of the green that are not in the picture. What was Hawtree thinking? There is no earthly way to thread a shot through this mess. If the intent was to force a long carry to attempt to reach the green, and given the hole was built on sand, why not create a Hell's Half Acre waste area. Or, why not remove enough of the bunkers to entice players to have a go at it and then possibly meet their doom in one of the pots.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/10357384786_57cac324a9_o.jpg)
From closer in, it still appears impossible to run it in. The last pot, built into the front edge of the green would be really great to protect this pin position if anybody ever wanted to take a run at the green in two. By itself, it might have been enough. You can see in this picture that there is the usual bit of runoff on the right side of the green.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5539/10357384835_cf250a9ef5_o.jpg)
From the front left of the green you can see the interesting contours on this long and slightly angled green. Too bad they didn't build some dunes or a berm to hide the clubhouse in the background. It could have provided a nice amphitheater for the conclusion of course.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3697/10357576373_8337b8e1d0_o.jpg)
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Hi Sean,
interesting to hear that. My impression of the shot was that it would be very hit and miss to use the back slope but having said that looking at the photo they have cut the grass down back there since I last saw it in person. It will be interesting to see how it looks next time I drop by. Do you think it would be a reliable shot to play?
On the 10th at Dornoch, I think on Sergio would contemplate the bunker hop shot or running through. The weakness of 10 is there is no bailout area just hit the green or face a really nasty shot.
Jon
Added: 18 is a great looking tee shot but the hole is so over bunkered as to be farcical. Bryan, you are right to ask what Hawtree was thinking!!! However, a very nice looking green complex.
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So Bryan,
I'll take you up on a few things here because I - like Rich - think that this hole makes you think and therefore can't be bad.
Sure, that same thinking could possibly have been achieved with a handful less bunkers but look at all the options you have going up the fairway. You say "There doesn't seem to be any particular strategic advantage to going left or right other than choosing whether to flirt with the marram rough right or the pond left". Is that not strategic enough? In other words you still have to choose where you are hitting it and many will blast away and find one of the pots for their stupidity – the fairway is massively wide (in effect two fairways) so there should be no excuse for not thinking… The second shot asks great questions because carrying those fronting two bunkers and leaving your third from 100 yards along the orientation of the green is significantly better than 150 yards against the angle over the fronting pot… This left position for the 2nd is incidentally easier from the left because it will be a shorter carry.
You also say “Too bad they didn't build some dunes or a berm to hide the clubhouse in the background”. Seeing that most great courses revel in having the clubhouse situated behind the 18th green and none of us like to see earthworks for the sake of it, I find this a strange sleight on the last hole (I’d prefer Sean’s assertion that there’s a little walk afterwards if we have to pick negatives).
I’d like to have seen a few less bunkers and a few different shapes. Other than that, I applaud the architects for throwing a little chaos in to the placements of the 18 bunkers that are there. And for including multiple split fairways over a huge width and scale.
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18 is dog's dinner bad. The are so many things wrong with the hole that who knows where to start. The drive is incredibly pinched, to the point that layng up on a god knows how long par 5 is a serious option. I am shaking head as I type. Someone lost the plot on this one. I was left hitting three woods into the green with absolutely nowhere to go for the third after taking on the bunkers off the tee and for the second. Short right spills right. Short left spills left. Then, after all that, there house is nowhere in sight. Jeez, talk about smash mouth golf. Ally, you and Rihc can have 18.
Jon - no, I wouldn't try to bang one between the bunkers on 16 unless the hole played seriously downwind.
Ciao
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18 is dog's dinner bad. The are so many things wrong with the hole that who knows where to start. The drive is incredibly pinched, to the point that layng up on a god knows how long par 5 is a serious option. I am shaking head as I type. Someone lost the plot on this one.
Jon - no, I wouldn't try to bang one between the bunkers on 16 unless the hole played seriously downwind.
Ciao
Sean, please do start - I think you are wrong.
Dealing with your first point, the drive is not pinched. At least no more so than any other number of holes with centreline bunkers (and that taking in to account the wind from elevation).
The width was needed given the land / panorama. Some kind of visuals were also needed given the land / panorama.
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I disagree about the ground game option at #16. I watched a guy bang one between the bunkers and use the back slope to bring his ball back onto the green from the white markers. The shorter markers on this hole all allow for some leeway. It is the longer markers further left which are purely aerial unless someone wants to get needlessly funky for some reason. I think this hole is superior Dornoch's 10th. I once read a member say that a legitimate way to play the hole downwind was to bounce over the bunkers. How daft is that?
Ciao
Not daft at all, I had a tap in birdie last year playing it exactly that way. If only I could claim it was deliberate....
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Mark
Come back to me when you successfully hop the bunkers intentionally. In any case, bunker hopping suggests to me they are insipid and fail to perform their function.
Ally
We played forward tees and carrying the two left bunkers took a good poke. Playing right between the bunkers is quite narrow. Playing left is very dangerous. IMO, given how long the hole is and uphill from the second in, there is not enough space from the tee. It takes a good wahck to get up to the next set of sand and from there it is no bargain into the green. The hole is more than annything about brute strength with pinched landing areas. Plus, it looks horrible from any angle. I can't think of anything positive to say about #18.
Ciao
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Sean,
I was once daft enough to try to bounce one over the bunker into the 10 at Dornoch. I had heard the same story. Needless to say, I don't have the talent to make it work.
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Ally,
I understand and respect your first point about strategies. I have a different opinion, and that's OK. Maybe with more plays (which is very unlikely) I'd come around to your view. I expect that this hole will be polarizing for those who care to study it. I would also think that some of the carries for the second shot to get anywhere other than a layup could be quite long, especially into the prevailing wind.
Re the clubhouse, perhaps if it, and the tent were a nicer structure it would be fine even closer to the green. Given the experience of the course is being isolated in primeval dunes for all the holes except the 9th and 18th I thought that maintaining that design ethic on those two holes would have been nice. But, I quite like the links courses that start and return to the town. That is quite nice too, but in a different way.
If you like a little chaos in your bunkering from time to time, then this hole does it for you, as does the 4th. It didn't work for me, although I don't think it is quite Sean's dog's breakfast either.
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Bryan, Sean,
It appears to me that 18 would create a really strategic hole for today's long hitting pros. That would make a pleasing difference. Most strategic design - through the green at any rate - that we talk about on GCA is rendered null and void by the world's best.
As for 4 Bryan, I'm less keen on that bunkering. Not chaotic enough... And too many for its enclosed location.
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Ally
I suspect you are correct. Although, where does that leave every sucker out there paying the fee? I guess I am saying that to some degree, the golfer must be accommodated. I don't believe 18 does that very well. I would hope to at least be entertained if not accommodated. 18 failed on both counts. Its rockem' sockem' modern golf lacking in charm or subtlety. I can only take so much of that and 18 was the straw that broke the Camel's back. Great course for sure, but I think great for a certain segment of the golfing population.
Ciao
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Ally,
Maybe you're on to something here - the Chaos School of Architecture.
Sean,
Just to clarify, which segment is it great for - a major championship professional field?
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I'm curious to hear if any of those who have played it think it's a great course for the 99% of players and for the 1% of players? For a point of reference, does it fit in the top 10 in the UK? In the world? Top 100 in the world? What would it knock off? Is it a Doak 10 or 9?
Personally, I thought it was a big bold brash modern American take on links golf. I'd happily play it again if not for the price, but on my annual visits it would be a tough choice to play there rather than Dornoch, or North Berwick or Prestwick or Cruden Bay or Royal Aberdeen or Carnoustie or ........... So in that sense it doesn't fit, at this point, in the great category for me. Perhaps with time. For me the repetitiveness of the raised greens and the over-bunkering and some mundane holes, 2 and 11 for instance, create too many demerit points. But it is very good, in my opinion, and the conditioning is first rate.
For the professionals, if and when they get there, I'd question if it is long enough at 7400 yards on a par of 72. Of course, they could play the 7th as a long par 3 for those guys. And, the wind, which is almost always there could be the great equalizer given the high tees.
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Bryan
I think Trump is great for the stronger players, not so much for the mid to high markers. That said, it is my impression the course was designed with flat bellies very much in mind; the focus on aerial golf is testament to this. Plus, it has to be said the setting is outstanding and that matters, at least to me if not Mucci. To put Trump in context with with Trump's goal of attracting championship play, I would say it falls behind
TOC
Sandwich
Muirfield
Birkdale
Hoylake
6th in the rota isn't bad in the least.
By my reckoning, I have played 35 great courses and I think Trump is one of those. Even so, its hard to see how Trump makes top 25 in GB&I - it has stiff competition. In the end though, the views will win the day and I will be very surprised if Trump doesn't "officially" settle comfortably in the top 20, maybe top 10 with a bit of luck if it actually hosts something important. While not the world beater, this is not a bad stab at it for a course trying to accommodate flat bellies.
Ciao
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Bryan,
It was my friend Nick Norton who initially advocated the “chaos theory of strategy”, a term I immediately stole because I liked it so much. When you think about golf course designers’ well thought out attempts to create strategy in their bunkering and then think about how often that strategy manifests itself in the way the majority play, it is very rare. By contrast, drop 100 bunkers anywhere around a course (ala The Old Course to an extent) and you will inevitably have to think quite often about your next shot.
On another point, I will disagree with you that Trump is a “big, bold, brash, modern American” take on links golf… I think it is quintessentially a Hawtree design – their / his marks are all over the course. I guess that doesn’t in itself differentiate it from your description. But it is Hawtree first, other descriptions come after.
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On another point, I will disagree with you that Trump is a “big, bold, brash, modern American” take on links golf… I think it is quintessentially a Hawtree design – their / his marks are all over the course. I guess that doesn’t in itself differentiate it from your description. But it is Hawtree first, other descriptions come after.
I think you're both saying the same thing in this para, albeit in different ways. I agree it has a lot of Hawtree characteristics. But which is the quintessential Hawtree links? Birkdale! Which is the poster boy for big, bold and modern in the links world.
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Sean did you actually pay a £190 or whatever they ask to play Trump? I thought you got grumpy overs bullseye?
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Thanks all for the continued commentary.
Rich, you played on ahead on 18. I haven't gotten there at my measured pace. After I get there, I'd like to hear from you about how many Rhichelin *'s the course got in total and how that total might fit in in your rating system.
Sorry for playing through, Bryan, but my bags were packed, waitin' to go, taxi driver's blowin' his horn.....
As to my overall evaluation of TIGLS, I given it 2**, basically because I don't give 3*** to any course that is still in adolescence and has some fixable flaws, but also because Tom Doak would never speak to me again if I ranked it higher than Pacific Dunes..... I 've given 3*** to only 15 or 20 courses in the world that I have played and I doubt if there are more than another 10 to 15 out there that I haven't played and deserve it, at least to my standards (which are largely, but not completely, summed up by Michelin's "worth the journey" criterion).
So, what exactly does it have and does it not have? Firstly, is it potentially an Open Course? Undoubtedly! In fact, from the tips and with a decent amount of variable wind and a more mature, fast and firm greensward and some fairly minor tweaking it could possibly be THE best course on the Open Rota, IF the main criterion was the Tatumesque "to identify the greatest golfers in the world." It is a more demanding challenge than Carnoustie and requires more thought than Sandwich, and Muirfield and the Old Course combined. Eye Candy wise it makes Turnberry look like Pacific Grove. It has ample space to accommodate 40-50,000+ spectators/day. And yet....
....to fully accommodate all these people it will need to build all the infrastructure on the property that is planned but not yet even started. A major hotel. Further rental accomomodation. A megaclubhouse. Civil Engineering to allow internal open spaces/wetlands to be able to take grandstandands, walkways, toilets and other temporary out on the course facilities. This will take at least 5-10 years to complete, once it has started. Finally, dealing with the people at the site pales with the challenge of dealing with the problem of getting people to the site. As it is today, the ONLY road from Aberdeen to TIGLS is mostly single carriage (i.e. one lane going each way), and the roads from Inverness and the North are even worse. Now there is a "Ring Road" well into the planning stage which will bypass the city of Aberdeen and otherwise improve the traffic from other places such as Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow, but it too is probably at leas 5-10 years from completion. I think that TIGLS will hold an Open, but I'm not sure it will be in the Donald's lifetime.
Meanwhile, however, the existence and quality of the course should significantly improve the north side of Aberdeen as a "worth the journey" golfing destination. Added to Royal Aberdeen, Murcar and Cruden Bay I consider it now to be a comparable to Bandon, even without any significant supporting infrastructure. When that comes, watch out!
Rich
PS--I've seen briefly the "debates" regarding the 16th at Tiggles, and it being the poster child for over-bunkering on a short par-3 on a links course. All I can say is the Wardian war cry: "Wake up and smell the coffee, Pilgrims!" I find it hard to remember any seriously good short par-3 (on a links course, Scottish or otherwise, or even on any course, come to think of it) where you can actually land short and run your ball up to the green, without encountering a hazard (including seriously sloped false front for those without fronting bunkers (e.g. Brora #6)) . Yes, Dr. MacK (or any of us) could putt our ball onto the green of the 11th at the Old Course from the (forward) tee, but only eventually and probably leading us to holing out for a 6 or a 7. Those of you who think otherwise, please jog my memory as to on which decent short holes you regularly hit a running shot onto the green.
Thanks
rfg
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PS--I've seen briefly the "debates" regarding the 16th at Tiggles, and it being the poster child for over-bunkering on a short par-3 on a links course. All I can say is the Wardian war cry: "Wake up and smell the coffee, Pilgrims!" I find it hard to remember any seriously good short par-3 (on a links course, Scottish or otherwise, or even on any course, come to think of it) where you can actually land short and run your ball up to the green, without encountering a hazard (including seriously sloped false front for those without fronting bunkers (e.g. Brora #6)) . Yes, Dr. MacK (or any of us) could putt our ball onto the green of the 11th at the Old Course from the (forward) tee, but only eventually and probably leading us to holing out for a 6 or a 7. Those of you who think otherwise, please jog my memory as to on which decent short holes you regularly hit a running shot onto the green.
Always at the 15th just up the road at Cruden Bay, and, although it has one bunker (way, way short) normally the 3rd just south at Royal Aberdeen or, a bit further south, the 16th at Montrose which, despite the bunkers, normally needs a well hit run and bounce and chase to get on the green. And oh yes, the tiny wee 8th at Royal Aberdeen is frequently, especially if windy (ie normally), best played with a long/mid-iron punch-chip landing well short and running up onto the green (no hazards the front).
All the best.
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Rich,
regarding the 16th the criticism from my part is the bunkering not that it should be without any form of defence in front of the green. I am wide awake and enjoying smelling the coffee Rich but it is not a jar of the instant budget stuff you seem to be sniffing ;).
Jon
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Thomas,
You may be the only person alive who considers the 15th at Cruden Bay to be a short par 3. You're probably also in a minority considering it to be a decent hole!
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Thomas,
You may be the only person alive who considers the 15th at Cruden Bay to be a short par 3. You're probably also in a minority considering it to be a decent hole!
Okay, okay, 15-luv, although I have seen the 15th green hit with an 8-iron from the tee, and I may well be in the minority in thinking it's a (more than) decent hole!! Selection of the short 8th at RAGC should get me out of jail though!
All the best