Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Brian_Ewen on October 21, 2013, 11:07:04 AM
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I never knew there was any planned ?
https://twitter.com/TheHomeofGolf/status/392302948794908672/photo/1
Work begins on alterations to the 16th green of the Eden Course
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/BXG9dBPCQAAgYzm.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/brianewen/media/Golf/BXG9dBPCQAAgYzm.jpg.html)
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The 16th was a Donald Steel addition wasn't it?
Didn't this hole already have its green moved a number of years ago?
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They have had to reply to their tweet, and have said in reply to Adam Lawrence.
Plan to lower front surround & remove hump in middle
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Is that the green with the lake?
Ulrich
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No, Ulrich. It's a par 5 playing back towards the clubhouse. I don't remember much about it, which, since I birdied it the only time I played it, suggests it's not all that memorable a hole!
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Colt's original par 3 16th was lost with the Steel redesign 20+ yrs back now. I saw that hole, but can't picture it now and nobody else seems to remember it in detail other than T Doak, I think he has a photo?
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Here are some previous threads as information to the Eden Course.
St Andrews Eden-Major Colt - September 21, 2002
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2795.0.html
St. Andrews Eden Course (ALL 18 Posted NOW) with pics - October 15, 2011
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49924.0.html
According to the thoughts of some of our Colt officanados in the above threads the 16th was one of the casualties of the alterations by Donald Steel in the 80's to Harry Colts original course.
Considering Hawtree, the golf course architect firm favoured by the R&A, wrote the biography Colt & Co, incidently with major input from Gil Hanse, one would expect the Links Trust would attemp a restoration, or at least a new build, in the style of Harry Colt.
Or is this just an improvement to match the maintenance machines?
Is this work really necessary?
How about the Links Trust/R&A make a philanthropic statement promoting the ethos of support for the needy by the wealthy by helping some other struggling scottish golf courses?
Why not send the pictured 11 Greenkeepers to fix some other needy greens in Scotland?
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I'm pretty sure the Links Trust have been tinkering with these holes over the last few years as the mounding down the sides of the par 5 has been systematically reduced, and I could be wrong, but I believe the green and surround was previously changed. From what I recall (last played with FBD and Neil Crafter !) the revised green wasn't too bad in comparison with the hole as originally built by Steel.
Niall
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Interesting that the Links Trust employed Sprockets to do the work. Dieter et al on break:
(http://oi41.tinypic.com/2hx1zyt.jpg)
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I played the Eden in July and, as I recall, the hole was inoffensive and somewhat unmemorable. I recall that the tee shot has to climb a modest rise and that the hole is fairly flat from there on out. I certainly don't recall feeling like the hole needed any work. The really good holes on the course are mostly among the first 13, with the exception of #17, which is a very nice hole - and one that's somewhat similar to #16 on TOC - with a stone wall tight on the right the entire length of the hole and bunkers in the landing area just left of the fairway.
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http://blog.standrews.com/renovation-underway-on-5th-green-of-eden-course/
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/eden-feature.jpg)
Renovation underway on 5th green of Eden Course
The 5th green on the Eden Course has had an ongoing issue with flooding due to a poor soil profile that doesn’t allow the same level of drainage as other greens on the course. A heavy rain shower yesterday morning illustrated exactly why renovation work is required.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/eden-5th-1024x676.jpg)
The fact that the green itself is relatively small in size and its many undulations mean that the number of available pin positions is quite limited. This results in heavy wear over a small area which has a detrimental effect on the grass species and surface performance.
Last year the Links Management Committee agreed to a reconstruction project that would be sympathetic to the original Harry Colt design. The Links consulted renowned golf course architect Martin Hawtree who presented the below proposal of works.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/hawtree-sketch.jpg)
The project will see the overall size of the green increased, reshaping work undertaken on and around the green, backfilling of an old bunker short-right and the rebuilding of a new one on the right hand side.
The Eden greenkeeping team began work on Monday 3rd November and will aim to have this completed in about a month’s time. We’re then hoping to have the green back in play by April next year.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/eden-1024x698.jpg)
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/eden2-1024x664.jpg)
Words by Kevin Muir, Course Manager – Eden, Strathtyrum and Balgove Courses
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Sic transit golfcourses mundi :'(
The 5th is (was?) a GREAT green! A few years ago some geezer had a hole -n-one on the 5th using a putter from the tee. I suspect that opportunity will no longer be available......
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Sic transit golfcourses mundi :'(
The 5th is (was?) a GREAT green! A few years ago some geezer had a hole -n-one on the 5th using a putter from the tee. I suspect that opportunity will no longer be available......
Are you concerned about the result of this work, even though you weren't concerned about the same crew blowing up greens on The Old Course?
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Yes, Tom
The 2nd and the 7th (and even the 11th) on the Old needed the facelifts that they got, and of them only the 7th was a favo(u)rite of mine. On the other hand, I consider the 5th at the Eden to be one of the most enjoyable holes on the Pilmuir Links, but reserve final judgement until I see what they have done to the green.
Rich
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Vandals! You would have thought they would have learned something from the Steel revisions. Why can't they just leave classic holes like this alone? It's just like the changes Simpson's 5th green at Louth.
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Paul
Now that we have you on line, please tell us who dissed Colt's work on the New in 1920 and why? What changes did he make? I've never heard about that before.
Cheers
Rich
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What a way to celebrate 100 yrs of the Eden, dig up an original Colt and get a new Hawtree.
Why does the lower terrace need to be "regraded" how does that help with drainage?
Rich
6 new greens there's a long thread somewhere with newspaper clippings. But the search is stilll hard work on GCA.
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Given the low tech napkin drawing, it looks like they did not survey the green before changing it.
If that is the case that is PURE NEGLIGENCE when renovating an historic Colt green.
Also nice to see they are adding a second bunker, making the bunkering even, something Colt almost always tried to avoid....
SO SAD........
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A question that I have is whether or not the green always retained water like that. If not then what changed? Has the green's surface drainage been altered through topdressing or is the water just not percolating through as it once did?
I agree that you would think that there would have been some more concern as far as changing around original Colt. Saying that, you could make a case that the course is so altered already that it won't be that much of an additional concern. Also, the vast majority of players will care more about better turf as opposed to whether or not it is a somewhat natural evolution of an original Colt green.
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Frank
At least you have some good pics on your site for comparison.
It's like death from a thousand cuts from "renowned" architects like Hawtree and Ruddy, every month there's news of a Colt green getting "renovated" moved, expanded for more pin positions etc.
Surely there could have been a gentler approach to stop a puddle or two appearing once in a while.
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What a way to celebrate 100 yrs of the Eden, dig up an original Colt and get a new Hawtree.
Why does the lower terrace need to be "regraded" how does that help with drainage?
Rich
6 new greens there's a long thread somewhere with newspaper clippings. But the search is stilll hard work on GCA.
Thanks, Paul. My life is too short to try to use the crack GCA.com search engine, but maybe Melvin will come to the rescue....
As to the Eden, sometime well after I die, someone with compassion and vision is going to take charge of the Links Trust and blow up the current driving range/car park under which the 4 lost Colt holes live in darkeness, bring someone like Frank Pont (maybe his great grandson) to recreate the Eden as it was designed and should so always be. They can then move the driving range and car park to bits of the Balgove, take some holes from the Strathtyrum to make the Balgove whole and then use the evil Steel holes out at the end of today's "Eden" to make the Strathtyrum whole.
What a useless group of underachievers the Links Trust is and has been for far too long.....
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Rich
Did you ever play the original Eden config? I was there early enough but only remember vaguely.
I tried to source pics of those lost holes but can't find anywhere and it wasn't that long ago (20 years or so)....perhaps Tom Doak or Brian Morgan? The original 16th par 3 would be the most interesting/
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Rich
Did you ever play the original Eden config? I was there early enough but only remember vaguely.
I tried to source pics of those lost holes but can't find anywhere and it wasn't that long ago (20 years or so)....perhaps Tom Doak or Brian Morgan? The original 16th par 3 would be the most interesting/
The old 2nd green is still there in the shape of a practice putting green on the other side of the wall. And what a gorgeous creature it is too...
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Rich
Did you ever play the original Eden config? I was there early enough but only remember vaguely.
I tried to source pics of those lost holes but can't find anywhere and it wasn't that long ago (20 years or so)....perhaps Tom Doak or Brian Morgan? The original 16th par 3 would be the most interesting/
The old 2nd green is still there in the shape of a practice putting green on the other side of the wall. And what a gorgeous creature it is too...
Mark Alexander did a cool piece about it for us a few years ago.
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Rich
Did you ever play the original Eden config? I was there early enough but only remember vaguely.
I tried to source pics of those lost holes but can't find anywhere and it wasn't that long ago (20 years or so)....perhaps Tom Doak or Brian Morgan? The original 16th par 3 would be the most interesting/
The old 2nd green is still there in the shape of a practice putting green on the other side of the wall. And what a gorgeous creature it is too...
Mark Alexander did a cool piece about it for us a few years ago.
Do you perchance have a link you could share with us?
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Rich
Did you ever play the original Eden config? I was there early enough but only remember vaguely.
I tried to source pics of those lost holes but can't find anywhere and it wasn't that long ago (20 years or so)....perhaps Tom Doak or Brian Morgan? The original 16th par 3 would be the most interesting/
Never did, alas. When I was there fist in 1978 I didn't even know they had any courses other than the Old one!
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Ally
Here:
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/The-origins-of-Eden-at-St-Andrews/1802/Default.aspx#.VF0r4MnYciU
But still nobody appears to have a photo!
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Ally
Here:
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/The-origins-of-Eden-at-St-Andrews/1802/Default.aspx#.VF0r4MnYciU
But still nobody appears to have a photo!
I stood by that old 2nd green for about 20 minutes a couple of months back, camera in hand... But there were about 20 Italian students practising on it so it didn't make for a very telling photo.
I'd love to know what the alternate plan was instead of losing those 4 Eden holes.
And was the land of the original 4 holes as it is now or was any of it flattened for the driving range?
Ally
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http://blog.standrews.com/eden-5th-green-renovations-update/
Eden 5th green renovations – update
A good start has been made to the project in the first week despite some heavy periods of rain. Before stripping the turf we pegged the area of the original green along with recording the levels at various points for reference.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/1.jpg)
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2.jpg)
The new size and shape of the green was then marked out and the rootzone from those areas removed. This is then bulked up with sand, screened and mixed to be reused back on-site later.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/33.jpg)
There are two principal reasons for making changes to the green. Firstly, there was a layer of ash between the rootzone and the sand underneath, which was affecting the drainage of the green. This was common practice in greens construction in days gone by as a way of retaining moisture prior to the advent of irrigation systems. In the past we would’ve been able to regularly punch holes through this layer and connect the rootzone with the sand below, but years of constantly topdressing the green, as we try to retain firm surfaces and keep organic matter levels low has resulted in that layer being deeper than we are able to deep-tine aerate.
Secondly, with constant competition play from the nine local golf clubs here in St Andrews, we were finding it increasingly difficult to provide a variety of suitable pin placings on what is probably the smallest green on the Links. There was always a risk that the ‘safe place’ on the green (back left) was going to flood resulting in competitions being cancelled and having to be rescheduled.
Along with its location, the green’s size and lack of fair pin placings is the reason that we’ve had to rest it for a number of months each winter over the past five years.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/4-1024x768.jpg)
With the rootzone cleared, we then mined sand from a nearby area to re-grade levels on selected areas as per the plan.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/5-1024x768.jpg)
The bunker located at the front right, 30 yards short of the green has been moved closer to the green. The mound which was in that area has been pushed to the right to allow for better traffic management of the 45,000 golfers who play the course each year. The irrigation sprinklers and pipework has been re-routed to fit the new layout.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/6-1024x768.jpg)
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/7-1024x768.jpg)
With new sand added to the subgrade and firmed, levels have been checked and we’re almost ready to begin replacing the rootzone.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/8-1024x768.jpg)
Words by Kevin Muir, Course Manager – Eden, Strathtyrum and Balgove Courses
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They at least appear to have good reasons for doing the work to mitigate the drainage issues. Be nice to know how thorough the "recording the levels at various points" is. 45,000 rounds a year is sure to give them plenty of money to provide for a more detailed survey than that.
A little concerned at increasing the size of the green when the lack of it is one of the main features of the hole.
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http://blog.standrews.com/eden-5th-green-renovations-complete/
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Greenkeeping-blog-feature.jpg)
Eden 5th green renovations complete
The renovations to the 5th green of the Eden Course are now complete. Golf course architect, Martin Hawtree has been involved throughout the process and has made several site visits.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/blog1.jpg)
The original character and shape of the two-tier green has been retained while the renovations have allowed us to increase the area of the putting surface.
http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/blog2.jpg[/img]
The bunker on the left of green has been pulled towards the front and reshaped while the rear was lowered to allow better access.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/blog3.jpg)
The mound which encroached onto the very right edge of the green has been dragged further right and a new bunker added to protect the back portion of the green. This will allow for better traffic flow.
We can now utilise more of the green for pin placements, while a run off area has been created at the back right.
(http://blog.standrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/blog5.jpg)
Rough mounding at the rear of the green screens the 6th tee and walkways have been graded through these to allow golfers easy access to the tee.
Words by Kevin Muir, Course Manager – Eden, Strathtyrum and Balgove Courses
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The new 5th green on the Eden opens on Monday.
Better not say anymore :-X