Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on October 02, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
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Map of the course.
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At once tucked away in England's no man’s land and yet perhaps the most heralded of all England’s inland courses, Ganton’s name lays on the tongue of the golf connoisseur with the same savoury taste as Yorkshire Pudding smothered in gravy. It wasn’t long after the founding of the club that Ganton began to build its reputation as a host of prominent events which is second to none among British inland courses. It was the unflappable Harry Vardon, the greatest of all English golfers, starring in the heyday of British domination of the game who took centre stage in two matches before the turn of the century could be counted. In 1895, a year before his appointment as club professional, Vardon comfortably dispatched with JH Taylor. The triumph propelled Vardon to win the first of a record six Open titles the following year at Murfield. Vardon scored another famous victory, this time over Willie Park Jr in 1899 by dismantling the Scottish professional over the final 36 hole leg of their challenge match. Not surprisingly, Vardon took the Claret Jug the same year at Sandwich by a cosy five shot margin.
It was the turn of the women for the next great event which saw Joyce Wethered emerge victorious in the 1923 English Ladies Championship. A further two English Ladies Championships and two English Amateur Championships were hosted previous to the epic 1949 Ryder Cup matches. Perhaps the matches were slightly marred by non-playing Captain Hogan’s claim that the grooves on some British clubs failed to comply with the rules. The R&A confirmed this suspicion and the club pro worked through the night to ensure the clubs adhered to rules. The US eventually won a closely fought contest 7-5. The Brabazon and PGA News of The World Matchplay (won by M Faulkner) soon followed. The impressive list of events continues to this day. Three Amateur Championships (Ganton being the only inland course to be so honoured), a Curtis Cup and most recently in 2003, a Walker Cup have all added to lore of Ganton.
Many well known writers have chipped in with their opinions. Patric Dickinson offered the following apt description: “Ganton doesn’t gamble. Play steadily, play discreetly, and play with good taste and common sense...it has no really quotable holes.” In one of the rare moments I would disagree with Bernard Darwin, no, Ganton isn't like Woking or Worplesdon. Ganton is rugged in a northern manner, yet one can’t say Ganton is overly long nor are there distressing carries. Where Ganton extracts its pound of flesh is in the relationship between the combination of strategic and penal bunkering and the subtle lay of the land. Of particular interest, and to beg off Dickinson once again, “...but there are other bunkers, beautiful sirens, daring us to steer too near them, rallying our faint hearts to carry over them, and sneering at our feebleness if we take the middle course.” There are several examples, but perhaps the best is displayed on the short two-shot third (which used to be a long par 3). There are also examples such as the second where a bunker(s) eats into the left of the fairway while the terrain leans right.
Unfortunately, when Ganton is in near perfect condition, running keen, the fairways can play quite narrow. At times it will take a near perfect tee shot to play the champion game. Of course, some will say Ganton is a championship links (there can be no better way to describe the course) and should therefore be punishing. Perhaps there is something in this attitude, but it is this author’s opinion that an extra 10 yards of width would truly make some of the more interestingly placed bunkers “beautiful sirens”.
The opener sets the tone. A tight drive which offers the scope of playing shy of the bunkers; in a nutshell, this is the Ganton dilemma. Below is our first look at a pit of despair.
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Whereas the modest length first turns right, the more forceful second turns left. The front to back sloping green has a curious effect of creating a double dogleg. Many drives will finish out to the right and leave a less than envious angle of approach.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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Do any greens convey a better sense of 'architectural repose' than Ganton's? The way they rest upon the terrain -- really, in the terrain -- is quiet yet miles from boring. And those bunkers, though fearsome, when viewed from a distance at eye level do anything but shout.
Two holes in and the aesthetic charms of Ganton already are on full display: refined harmony.
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GANTON TOUR CONT
As on the opening two holes, the third is visually restrained, though at least one can see the options on hand for this hole is dead straight. Given the many difficult par 4s, it is probably best if handicap players choose a tee which offers the opportunity of reaching the green in one. For some, this will mean the daily 288 yard tee. Though it doesn't appear to be the case, in normal conditions the large bunker eating into the driving zone from the left can easily be carried. Almost without fail, at Ganton, when a bunker crowds the fairway the land beyond will continue running in that direction and trouble invariably awaits on the far side; in this case it is bunkers, but there will often be a united front of rough, gorse and bunkers. Perhaps worse is to be caught behind the bunkers with the unenviable task of playing over sand to a green which slips away toward a ditch to the rear of the green. I mention the ditch because it must be taken into account from the tee and for the approach when Ganton is on summer form.
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The roll call of Ganton's architects reads like a hall of fame register: Vardon, H Hilton, CK Hutchinson and the remaining two of the Great Triumvirate; Braid and Taylor all visited in 1905 with the aim of beefing up Ganton's defences after the arrival of the Haskell. Harry Colt first made suggestions to revise Ganton in 1907, perhaps his first paying job as an architect. It is thought the removal of several cross bunkers and added yardage were the main targets for improvement. Mackenzie also played a part in the Ganton story in 1912 and 1920. Colt's final bit of work saw the creation of new greens for #s 13 and 17 and an entirely new 4th. It is on this hole that we finally see an appreciable elevation change. Legging to the right, the tee shot plays down an alley of greenery; shrubs, trees and other likely unpronounceable Yorkshian delights which will no doubt intimidate all but the most focused golfers. Below are views of the green from the right rough and the 13th fairway.
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There are too few short holes (only two from the white tees!), but what a terrific set! The shortest of the three is encountered first. Playing downhill it will often be the case that a kick in is prudent. Not 25 yards shy of the green is a blind water hazard to contend with.
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Coverering less than 450 yards and despite the great bunker down the left (not dissimilar to the 3rd) testing the resolve of golfers, the sixth is an uncommonly easy hole against par. That said, once golfers understand the hole can be had, there will be more pressure to press for 4s. In most cases, when golfers push against Ganton, Ganton pushes back.
More to follow.
Ciao
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When I played there in 2012 I did not carry a scorecard or Strokesaver. Since I was going to be playing six rounds in three days I figured the course would get familiar soon enough.
My first five rounds were solo but I joined up with a member on the afternoon of the third day. When we finished the sixth hole I said something like "This is one hole I wouldn't be able to par if I played it 50 times". He said "You just made a five, that's par" and honestly that's the first moment I realized it was not yet another long, tough Par 4.
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It's the bunkers, isn't it?... Placement and shapes...
Vegetation doesn't look too bad from the first few photos, Brian?
Might bow out of this thread though because don't want to look at too many photos before I play it...
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Brian,
Seriously, is there any tree on any golf course anywhere that you think should be there?
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Brian,
I must have been confused, thinking you were of the golf-course-as-blank-slate no tree brigade. Sorry.
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I have to say that Ganton has never struck me as particularly narrow. There are a couple of tight drives (9 and 13, I think) but otherwise I don't think it's narrow. I'd say Notts, for instance, is narrower and I don't think Notts is too narrow. I don't really get the problem with gorse. Which holes do you have in mind?
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Mark,
On my visit to Ganton and Notts last year, I did not come away with any inkling that someone might describe either course as narrow or tight. As you say, there's a tee shot here or trouble near a green there at each course. But my overall impression of both courses was of width and expansive scope.
Now if you want to avoid the BUNKERS at Ganton, shot selection and execution get a bit more precise!
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Brian,
I suspect very, very few USA golfers have played Ganton. There were a couple contingents who visited there before or after the Northern Buda in 2007. And myself and a couple others since then. But to go play Ganton you have to GO PLAY GANTON. It does not dovetail well into a visit to the Lancashire coast, the Manchester area or even if your destination is Beau Desert or Notts.
If/when I visit again, I'll probably do basically what I did last year. Fly into Manchester and go settle into the Greyhound for a few days to play the course. Then move onto Notts or some other destination for a few additional days. But it's just not really practical to grab an 18 or 36 hole day at Ganton on your way to or from some place with ocean views (oops, did I just slag the preference for ocean views?).
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Brian,
I have stayed at the Greyhound a couple of times and have never found the road noise to be a problem. Indeed, I can't say I have ever noticed road noise. After a couple of bottles of good Cotes de Castillon I can't imagine road noise being a problem!
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Jsut to say I've played it and since then I've always considered it the No1 inland course in GB&I.
Cannot understand why it gets compared with Woddhall. After 2 rounds at both, I long to return to Ganton and will only go back to Woodhall if there's a special reason to. The superficial resembance is in the depth of the bunkers. I don't find that more than something peculiar to both.
Yes it's remote but for once I have to side with those who beoive GB is but a smal lisland. I drove to it from Leeds, past Alwoodley in 1hr 15mins and after 36 holes back to London in about 5 1/2 hrs. I enjoyed it so much I never felt tired or in need of a snooze break.
Will try and keep up with the tour but I'm on the road from tomorrow. Thanks for the memories.
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Spose I should chime in. I have played Ganton at least 50 times over the years. Its turf is second to none that I have seen. It is a top routing which is made all the better by great bunkering. I can't fault any of the holes on the course and have been surprised that some here do not appreciate 14 for being an outstanding example of a short hole which in my opinion is better than any to be found at Sunningdale's two courses though I know many will disagree.
Also the 16th is a great example on how a green and pin placement can influence the decision of where to hit the tee shot. The only thing missing at Ganton is any real elevation and so it suffers from not having the scenic vistas of many other courses. If the course has a weakness it is that it really is a links course and were there a beach running along one of the boundaries of the course it would be raved about by many a GCA connoisseur. But there is no ocean view and so Ganton is difficult to put in a cubbyhole.
I have always found the course to be in good nick and often better to play in the winter than the summer. I would agree that it would be improved by a radical tree and undergrowth removal programme.
As well as playing Ganton it is well worth playing York GC (Strensil), Fulford as well as Pannel.
Jon
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It appears only a handful of us have played Ganton? I knew Mark P, Mark B and Brent would chime in but surely it's not just the 6 of us that have played it? It's a shame that threads on great British courses such as these get such scant commentary on this board as it is not a straightforward course to figure out from one play and would love to see it get the real detailed treatment...
Brian
This is not a bug, it's a feature. You think hit n runners complain about TOC and #2 being overrated, were Ganton's fame spread far and wide there'd be no end to the humphs and whinges.
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The 7th and 8th swing to and fro. Not surprisingly, the 7th has a nest of bunkers guarding the inside line down the right with horrible rough through the fairway left. The angles once again are perfection with the safer line creating added difficulty with the approach. The photo below depicts a fairly wide corridor, but the dogleg right is sharp enough to considerably reduce that width. Because the bunkering is often visually discreet and the land can quietly shift toward trouble, invariably, Ganton's fairways are narrower than they first appear. Often times, the heart of the driving zones are 35 yards wide or considerably less. Throw in the added element of wind and Ganton could not be accused of being excessively wide.
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Mr Sheehy fell victim to the safe play by finding a greenside bunker.
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The 8th is not dissimilar to #2 except for the more rolly polly green. The side ends with a par 5 featuring one of the best green complexes on the course and more obvious movement in the fairway.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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Regarding width, there are a few areas where the gorse and / or shrubbery pinch in and could stand to go. Gorse apparently was everywhere 100+ years ago; as part of his alterations Colt had a fair amount removed. For example, gorse formed a crossing hazard on the 3rd.
Speaking of Colt, the quality of the course is impressive given how many worked on it and how much. On the other hand, when that 'committee' consists of Braid, Vardon, Colt, and Mackenzie, perhaps it's less of a miracle.
And speaking of the 3rd, if the crap down the right were cut back OB might come more into play as well as the temptation to avoid the bunker left (setting up a more difficult second shot). Here's the 3rd is as it is:
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And here it is flipped vertically to facilitate a comparison:
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What similarities do you see in playing strategies, nature and severity of misses, etc? Is the comparison a valid one, and if so, why is the one famous yet the other obscure, particularly if the other predates the one?
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I despair of catching up. Skipping 4-6, I think the 7th was new to Colt's 1908 redo. The 7th in 1897 according to Horace Hutchinson was a 180-yard two shotter(!) that played across a swamp. In 1912 Mackenzie softened the approach feeding into the green.
I say it deserves consideration as one of the world's great par 4s. Would everyone characterize it as more a dogleg or a reverse dogleg?
The bunkering in the dogleg can be carried with a good drive, setting up a shorter second shot. But the green slopes away from the golfer from over there, particularly if he's gotten too greedy.
Conversely, hitting out to the left is safer -- assuming you don't bail out too far into that death bunker over there. But a well-placed drive over there leaves a longer second. You can bounce / run it in better I think from over there but there's that bunker short of the green to be negotiated.
This is maybe my favorite green on the course. Just outstanding.
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I can't fault any of the holes on the course and have been surprised that some here do not appreciate 14 for being an outstanding example of a short hole which in my opinion is better than any to be found at Sunningdale's two courses though I know many will disagree.
I am on the record in the archives as calling the 14th maybe the best short 4 I've ever played. I feel this hole is worthy of its own thread. So there's that. :P
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I can't fault any of the holes on the course and have been surprised that some here do not appreciate 14 for being an outstanding example of a short hole which in my opinion is better than any to be found at Sunningdale's two courses though I know many will disagree.
I am on the record in the archives as calling the 14th maybe the best short 4 I've ever played. I feel this hole is worthy of its own thread. So there's that. :P
Mark,
I did notice your comment on 14. It is a hole that regardless of how often you play it never allows you to settle on one way to get from tee to green. I always have to deliberate what to do when standing on the tee and it is never easy to decide.
Jon
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NOTE: I MADE THE FOLLOWING COMMENT THINKING IT WAS THE 14TH BUT IT'S THE 12TH. THE ACTUAL 14TH IS A VERY, VERY COOL HOLE.
I think for me the best strategy would be to just aim for the bunker on the 12th. Every shot I play trying NOT to go in the bunker ends up in trouble. And if I try to just play short of it I'll hit the best shot of the day and make it there anyway.
I think for six rounds I must have been about six over par on a 350-yard (or whatever it was from the yellow tees) hole. Couple pars, couple bogeys, couple doubles and never even a sniff at birdie. Off the tee there's crap off to the left and that little ditch thingy short and right, it's surprisingly easy to make a six.
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Do any greens convey a better sense of 'architectural repose' than Ganton's? The way they rest upon the terrain -- really, in the terrain -- is quiet yet miles from boring. And those bunkers, though fearsome, when viewed from a distance at eye level do anything but shout.
Two holes in and the aesthetic charms of Ganton already are on full display: refined harmony.
Perfectly said.
Thanks much Sean.
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8) Sean,
Thanks for posting this thread and the instructive pics. I played Ganton back in Sep 1996 after playing TOC a week earlier and remember my host Dr. Allison's directions regarding "think inland links!" Nothing but great memories there.. So i've set to looking things up on Google Earth, plotting the shots I can still remember making. I will chime in later... especially about the 18th and THE TREE!
p.s.
I travelled from 5 am in Broadway in the Cotswolds by taxi and then i think 3 trains to get to York around noon.. I got picked up and we motored off into Yorkshire and in relatively short order, after a quick sandwich in the clubhouse, gazing at things on the walls, and having fun with the pro to assemble a set of sticks, we set out on a wonderful trek for some match play... unfortunately spent too much time and missed my train out of York, but had great dinner near Monk's Gate... Bright Moments indeed!
p.s. still interested in northern mich golf pics?
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The 7th and 8th swing to and fro. Not surprisingly, the 7th has a nest of bunkers guarding the inside line down the right with horrible rough through the fairway left. The angles once again are perfection with the safer line creating added difficulty with the approach. The photo below depicts a fairly wide corridor, but the dogleg right is sharp enough to considerably reduce that width. Because the bunkering is often visually discreet and the land can quietly shift toward trouble, invariably, Ganton's fairways are narrower than they first appear. Often times, the heart of the driving zones are 35 yards wide or considerably less. Throw in the added element of wind and Ganton could not be accused of excess width.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/GANTON%20GC/017_zps80f13068.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/GANTON%20GC/017_zps80f13068.jpg)
I would like to see the mowing line moved out.
Actually, as I suspect you'd agree, the course on many holes for we mortals could be more difficult without rough. Not, say 4, where the rough is brutal, but on many other dogleg holes such as 7. Controlling one's ball out there, as on any links, presents quite a challenge. The rough, if not 'horrible' deep, can be your friend, as it buffers shots from the gorse. On 7 and again on 11 driving through the dogleg into the course was sufficiently probable for me that it induced genuine thought and concern. I would like to see that preserved yet at the same time see the rough maintained at everyday-play heights. A balance then in both rough width and height.
And let's put this one to bed: Ganton is a links, it's simply a matter of the time you choose to measure sea levels. As a links, it could do without trees! A bit of gorse however is essential. Down the left on 14 for example. (I think.)
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I wouldn't have picked out the 4th as a particularly great hole. It is devious and difficult for sure, but great? I would need to see it a few more times to draw a final conclusion. With one play the only hole I thought stood out above all others was the 10th.
I agree, Ganton is an inland links, but that isn't quite the same thing as a links...hence the qualifier. I think that is rather obvious in the pix. However, the vegetation takes away from that joy to be alive. The site is expansive, yet somehow manages to feel very constricted. Over the course of two days Sheehy and I had running shoot outs with Gentle James concerning Ganton's width. I think he did some googling to compare widths with Alwoodley (which Sheehy and myself thought was significantly wider than Ganton yet not overly wide), but I didn't get any results. I would also also say that so far, on #s 2, 3, 7 & 8 that the Ganton widths are less wide than they measure because of land movement. In the conditions we played (the course was in great nick) it was my impression that to take on the bunkering required very accurate and/or long driving was required. Though I understand that the course will not be as keen much of the year and this is a somewhat exceptional year for grand weather. In any case, and this is a great shame, the course doesn't strike me as wide enough to accommodate the apple pie conditions. Its almost as if the design is too clever for the green keepers - tee hee.
BTW - The 7th may have been the product of the Great Tri plus mates. They were the first to roust Ganton.
BTW II - I agree concerning #3. Sometimes shorter grass creates more problems. Without a dangerous situation to the right I can't see why the OOB line isn't better used. Concerning the 7th, I disagree. That short rough is a saver from the harsh stuff. The hole plays narrow and the rough is a counterbalance.
Ciao
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Sean,
I'm looking forward to see what you make of 14. In my view, as I have said elsewhere and I know in Mark B's, it is one of the very great short par 4s, yet you clearly think the only hole that stood out above the others was 10, not a hole I think of as one of the better ones on the property. What are we seeing that you are not, or vice versa?
As to width, I still don't get your complaint. Did you lose balls out there? Sure it requires accurate play but that rough ain't Muirfield style hay (even though that's an unfair characterisation of Muirfield) and losing a ball at Ganton takes a really, really wide ball or a daft play.
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Sean,
I briefly responded regarding width on your Alwoodley thread. I had a look on Google but didn't bother measuring. From the aerials Ganton certainly has some narrow fairways, especially 4 and 12, and some pinch points too, but then Alwoodley has a few pinch points also. In general Ganton was narrower from the aerials I'd say. However, I did say that I clearly can't be trusted to judge width as neither course felt narrow to me. Mark P mentions Notts earlier in the thread and perhaps I've become desensitised to narrow fairways through regular play, or perhaps I just counter being a short hitter with being a straight one (I did measure my drive on 11 that found the cross bunker though! ;D )
You mention 10 as a great hole? A decent par 3 but I didn't see anything especially noteworthy? Especially not with the quality of some of the other holes out there?
Cheers,
James
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James,
I don't think Notts is narrow. Narrower than Ganton? Yes. Narrow? No. I think Sean and Brian think anything narrower than TOC is narrow, sometimes!
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The front nine over, if I had to make one negative observation other than the lack of width (which like Muirfield I think may have been a feature from the very early days), I would say there is an element of sameness to some of the holes. That is, bunkers cutting into fairways with the terrain falling away is a well used motif.
Onto the 10th, a great hole that isn't materially different from any other hole at Ganton. Bunkers crowd the green, but the most important hazard may be the unreceptive green. Judging the yardage between the somewhat obscured cross bunker and the hole is a test. I suspect the front of the green and the area just shy hurry toward the rear of the green. Trying to land the ball near the hole in the hope of a one hop stop requires skill that most players do not possess. All is not perfect though, it is regretful to see a shadow cast across this most sublime scene. It begs the question why?
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4257/34725713943_d7dcd79c7f_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4257/34725713943_d7dcd79c7f_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4231/34725713733_905366b190_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4231/34725713733_905366b190_b.jpg)
The 11th is a bit unusual for a few reasons. First, there is noticeable elevation change. Second, the tee shot is fully in view. Well, I say fully, there is a pair of reachable cross bunkers about 100 yards short of the green which are out of sight (James Brown double entendre intended).
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4218/34725713193_4dd637d857_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4218/34725713193_4dd637d857_b.jpg)
Not in character for Ganton, the 12th is a greasy hole playing over (or around) trees and soft ground. At some point in the distant past this was a par 3 played over trees so I guess at least some of the original intent has been re-introduced over time and likely unintentionally.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4231/34725712863_13d481884b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4231/34725712863_13d481884b_b.jpg)
The final par 5 features a straight forward penal drive; ferocious bunkers right, trees and rough left. While the penal nature of the hole cannot be completely avoided, one can play short of the worst trouble and in the right conditions still reach the green. The photo below is the result of a tee shot less than 10 yards from the fairway.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4282/34725712603_f4f8ab994e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4282/34725712603_f4f8ab994e_b.jpg)
Below is a photo of Lee Trevino, possibly from the 1981 Sun Alliance PGA held at Ganton. The lack of trees not only down the left but generally in the photo is marked difference from today's Ganton. Also notice the bank of gorse in front of the tee!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4279/34725712073_1bcc87c075_o.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4279/34725712073_1bcc87c075_o.jpg)
Seemingly everybody's favourite hole, the short two-shot 14th, is a head scratcher. With a head wind (while not quite a contrary wind, I believe not the prevailing direction) it was clear the left bunker could not be carried. The choice off the tee was really about where to lay-up. As they say, if one is going to lay-up then be sure to do so and I suspect playing off the spire of St Nicholas is a line of preference for many. Once again, the fairway looks wide enough, but once again the land pulls shots right toward a blind bunker and a patch of trees which make an admirable hidey hole for under-age drinking.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4235/35404667751_66807b79a1_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4235/35404667751_66807b79a1_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4234/34725711763_1e8da91e1e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4234/34725711763_1e8da91e1e_b.jpg)
On the other hand, if the lay-up is tackled properly, approaching into a headwind must be a big advantage for the banana shape green is spare and quite elusive.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4210/35404667371_08af091075_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4210/35404667371_08af091075_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
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Brian,
If I were asked to identify the weakest hole on the course I wouldn't hesitate to name the 12th (and not the 18th, which others seem to dislike). It doesn't feel like the rest of the course, partly because of conditioning (which, as you say, flows from the trees surrounding not just the green but bordering the fairway more tightly than anywhere else) and partly because of the awkward nature of the tee shot, where every other hole has a more straightforward (if challenging) test off the tee.
Sean,
It's a shame you played in the wind you did. Whilst the 14th would still have been a great hole, it really reaches its potential in conditions which allow the green to be driven. That can only really be done by carrying the LHS bunker and running the ball down. It isn't straightforward, even then, it's a tight target and the way the green runs away makes it very difficult to hold.
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14th hole, very cool. The days I was at Ganton, wind was always slight variations on hurting and hurting from the right. One round it was pretty much dead right to left which made the hole feel quite odd. That was the one day I tried getting over the bunker to drive it up around the green but I played too far right and ended up skirting the bunker instead (probably just as well as I lack the driver distance to make the carry without a helping breeze).
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It does appear as though the gorse on the left of 14 has grown in a lot since my last visit in 2003. I remember there being a good 10 yards of free room left of the bunker giving not only more options of laying up in the left semi with a better angled, though semi blind wedge down the back axis of the green but also allowing the sporting option of bouncing the tee shot round the left side of the bunker. Even in the winter and under softer conditions it was still not easy to fly the bunker and hold the green if playing down wind.
Jon
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Brian, the 12th is a solid reverse dogleg. You are meant to challenge the far bunker and, yes, the gorse over there, regardless of the tree. The tree (and trees) could stand to go but the play should be to the outside of the dogleg for a more advantageous second shot.
The tree needs to go but it does not stand too much in way of the smart play. It may be seen as necessary to prevent an easier line by better players but better players should be able to call on a fade reliably, leaving the challenge for those who cannot do so. Or perhaps it's just one of those nostalgia things among the members, calling to mind the old wall of trees as you write, Sean.
Regarding this alleged lack of width, sounds like it's just a function of current conditions. Did any of you dial down the testosterone and go with less than driver?
Lastly, regarding 14: you're criticizing the hole because it played into a headwind, because the ground conditions were too firm and fast for your abilities, or because you didn't lay up properly? Why was it a 'head scratcher'?
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Mark
I disagree about #12. Seeing the green would perhaps entice people to play heroicly and/or foolishly. Besides, other than the far left tree, its a visual mess anyway.
#14 was a head scratcher because it was difficult to actually see what was the best shot to hit. There was no clear idea in mind anyway. After seeing the hole it is quite clear that in the same conditions one wants to lay well back with a more lofted club to avoid run-out to the right. In essence, while the hole is straight, one wants to play it as a dogleg left and appropriately there is serious trouble down the right. Downwind, none of that need be in one's thoughts. I would absolutely take my chances with a driver.
I didn't throttle back off the tee because I didn't know the course. That said, to lay-back of all the troubling bunkers/pinch points would on most occasions leave very long approaches. My criticism lies in the fact that I think many holes could easily be 10 yards wider and be better for it. You seem to disagree and thats fine by me. It would be interesting to know the widths of some of the landing areas such as on 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 13, 14 & 18. Then factor in the lie of the land, blindness, density of rough, f&f conditions (which were very good) and wind (which was fine). I think folks may be quite surprised.
When I read a comment like that below I have to wonder if we are talking about the same course. Choice on 16? How wide is that fairway and it narrows in the drop down area. Guys are actually trying to hit one side or the other? That is a different game to any I know.
...the 16th is a great example on how a green and pin placement can influence the decision of where to hit the tee shot.
Ciao
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Sean,
We disagree less than you think. I agree the tree (and trees) could go on 12; my point simply was that the optimal line is to the outside of the dogleg, tree or no tree.
And regarding width, I'm pretty dogmatic on that one so yes, more width, why not. That said, if it played as a narrow course for you that may be down to hyper F&F and / or the wind. But some holes regardless could use more width; I am thinking in particular of 4 but I'm sure there are others.
And laying up / negotiating bunkers: longer second shots, sure, but apparently you could have run the shots in.
Re your comments on 14: sounds like a great hole to me.
Brian I once played the course in a brutal westerly and while I didn't score well, I got around okay (by my standards). I am glad to see you are acknowledging that perhaps a few more goes around the course are necessary in order to make a judgment -- this actually is my major point in support of Ganton's greatness and why I personally like it so much. Just to take 14 as an example, there is a lot going on there and what is going on will vary according the day's conditions and the game the golfer happens to bring to the tee.
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The optimal line on 12 depends on whether one wants to hit a draw, fade or dead straight either side if only the one tree were there.
I can definitely see where more plays could alter one's opinion of Ganton. I don't think we had a hyper f&f day by any means, but the course was firm enough where run-out made a big difference and experience would have been beneficial. I think the run-out was to the point where one could cut a fine line off the bunkers and still be in the opposite side rough. In effect, one had to either carry the bunkers, be able to hit a shaped shot or lay-up to comfortably hold fairways; straight shots were very tight. For me, that signals a course being quite tight if that sort of shot is called for too often. On the other hand, Ganton is a championship course so it is to be expected there won't be a lot of spare room about to turn the shoulders - no? If the championship deal is the accepted norm, I don't care for the design approach.
Ciao
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When I read a comment like that below I have to wonder if we are talking about the same course. Choice on 16? How wide is that fairway and it narrows in the drop down area. Guys are actually trying to hit one side or the other? That is a different game to any I know.
...the 16th is a great example on how a green and pin placement can influence the decision of where to hit the tee shot.
Ciao
Sean,
I believe that comment was mine. Maybe 16 has narrowed dramatically but certainly if the pin was front of the green it was best to lay up on the drive with a three wood (for me) so as to avoid the potential downhill lie with a mid iron to a slightly raised green and no room to stop the ball. I was usually hitting a 3 or 4 iron in to the front pin trying to use the upslope at the start of the green to stop the ball. Because of the slight roundness of the front of the green and approach it was best to be on the same side of the fairway as the pin if you wanted to get real close.
If the pin was middle to the back of the green then a big drive with the hope of running to the flat area beyond the downslope left a much shorter shot in (7 or 8 iron) and it was best to be on the opposite side of the fairway to the pin.
I suspect that it takes multiple plays to discover many of the subtleties of such holes and I think a course is all the better for it. I find the idea that 'everything should in your face and obvious' a little one dimensional and lacking in finesse.
I suspect you need to play Ganton a few more times to really appreciate it.
Jon
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15 & 16 are long two-shotters of which at least one will be a Herculean task for many to reach in regulation. The 15th is a welcome relief to the smothering effect of the previous three holes.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4217/35404667191_7504ff9a92_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4217/35404667191_7504ff9a92_b.jpg)
A lovely change of pace to the bunkering is the dip shy of the green which surely must see its fair share of action.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4213/35404667031_e6b566e55a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4213/35404667031_e6b566e55a_b.jpg)
Marching side by side are the 16th and the entrance road, though the threat of going out of bounds is minimal. This was the hole the American side seemed to like best during the 1949 Ryder Cup, though I suspect the hole had a more visual appeal without quite so many trees.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4237/35404666731_fa865099af_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4237/35404666731_fa865099af_b.jpg)
Ganton's best land movement is on display for the approach. The long shadows cast across the fairways succinctly makes my point concerning the trees.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4265/35404666391_6845fde8bf_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4265/35404666391_6845fde8bf_b.jpg)
There are at least two reasons why the 17th fairway/green and 18th tee shot are cast-aways to the far side of the entrance road. First, the "Sandpit of Vast Dimensions" must have been captivating, but it is long since a memory. Second, the 17th green site.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4257/34725708803_740af7b807_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4257/34725708803_740af7b807_b.jpg)
However, the green site remains. Due to modern technology, I don't think the 17th is properly set up at 250 yards. I say this because the domed green is an exceptional example of the type and would be better utilized if more golfers were forced to approach with a pitching iron. If an extra 25 or so yards could found, when the hole is playing (what I believe is) into a contrary wind the difficulty of the green would be more pronounced.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4265/34725709503_3346b88ea2_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4265/34725709503_3346b88ea2_b.jpg)
The denuding of the quarry probably ranks up there with the loss of such famous holes as the Maiden and Sandy Parlour. Unfortunately, the 18th is at best a mediocre finish without famed sand. Rountree's excellent rendition of the 18th taken from Darwin's Golf Courses of the British Isles.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4255/34725708423_19548fde08_o.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4255/34725708423_19548fde08_o.jpg)
Dickinson's sketch of the 18th taken from the incomparable Round of Golf Courses.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4209/35404665361_dd852a57f5_o.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4209/35404665361_dd852a57f5_o.jpg)
An old photo taken from Horace Hutchinson's British Golf Links.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4242/35404665591_04bb0f198a_o.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4242/35404665591_04bb0f198a_o.jpg)
It is unfortunate that in essence what could be an all-world finish in 16 through 18 fails to live up to its promise. Yet, Ganton is blessed with a plethora of fine holes so we mustn't be overly critical. Combine historic (I believe Colt's work here in 1907 was the first time he was paid purely for architectural work) testing golf in comely surroundings with conditioning that in my experience is second to none, an attractive clubhouse bursting with character and Ganton must surely be counted among the best days out in England. 1* 2013
Ciao
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Sean,
I am amazed at how the trees on the left of 16 encroach into play these days. It does make the hole look much narrower than I recall.
Jon
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With the trees on the RHS of 12, those on the LHS of 16 are ones which would enhance the course by their removal. 16 is one hole which I do agree feels narrow.
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Go back and look at the old photo of 13. I think Ganton is a very different course today compared to 30 years ago.
Ciao
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Sean,
There may be some trees that have grown in the last 30 years but that picture of 13 looks even narrower than today, with that gorse on the left. I generally agree that trees are a bad thing when they weren't there before the course and I agree with you that the removal of trees would, almost always, improve a course. I don't think that means that Ganton is objectively narrow, though and I can think of other courses that could benefit more from tree removal (Huntercombe springs immediately to mind).
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Mark
That gorse looks like it is further up than the two bunkers on the right - which are decent hits to reach. The entire area short left of the gorse doesn't exist today - it is now blocked out by trees and god knows what else. Plus, I think the short grass look 5-10 yards wider then. The 13th is far and away much tighter today. In fact, in th old photo you can see the start of veggie growth - there is a lone tree/bush just getting its legs.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/ganton/P1010568.jpg) (http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/ganton/P1010568.jpg)
Though I agree that other courses could have trees removed, many other courses, but relatively few courses have the double situation of harsh bunkers...lots of harsh bunkers and harsh rough with trees. I think Ganton's design is seriously compromised by the vegetation, not unlike many champ links with their overly penal set-ups.
BTW - Tucky's excellent tour!
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49143.0.html
Ciao
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Though I agree that other courses could have trees removed, many other courses, but relatively few courses have the double situation of harsh bunkers...lots of harsh bunkers and harsh rough with trees. I think Ganton's design is seriously compromised by the vegetation, not unlike many champ links with their overly penal set-ups.
BTW - Tucky's excellent tour!
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49143.0.html
Thanks for this tour and your thoughts on Ganton. I spent a day there and enjoyed it greatly. The vegetation that you refer to didn't keep me from liking the course a lot, but removal of some - especially gorse - would make it even better.
You referenced my partial tour of Ganton. I never go around to finishing that, much less moving on to Alwoodley. I feel really lazy now.
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The vegetation that you refer to didn't keep me from liking the course a lot, but removal of some - especially gorse - would make it even better.
I think this is the point that Sheehy and myself made. What surprised me was that I had never heard a peep of how tight the course can play - I wasn't expecting it.
Ciao
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It's interesting. I had never thought of Ganton as tight. I don't ever recall, in perhaps a dozen plays, losing a lot of balls. On many holes the actual playing corridors are reasonably wide. Particularly, I think, early in the round. On reflection, a few holes are really quite tight but not, I think, unfairly so. There's a difference between a hole where you might miss the fairway but still have a shot, albeit a tough one or a recovery and a hole where a small miss results in a lost ball.
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I'm with Mark concerning the "tight" thing. There are certainly places where I'd agree that gorse or trees have encroached farther than ideal. I'd have no objection at all if some of that were gone the next time I visit.
But as I said before, the words "tight" or "narrow" never even entered my mind when I was playing there. I don't much care for the 18th hole but that's the single example I can think of that seems out of character. The rest of the course is a mixture of wide-open stretches interspersed with holes that have less room for error. It's not The Old Course. But maybe I just play far more truly "tight" courses than some of you guys who visit a lot of wide-open ones.
P.S. It almost seems like I have three mental categories and some of you only have two. I perceive some courses as "wide open", others and "tight" with the majority just "normal width". Ganton is in that middle category just like 80% of the course I've ever played. Maybe some people view it only as "wide" vs. "tight". Keep in mind I live in an area where there is pretty much no such thing as a golf course where you can see 6, 8, 10 other holes from any point on the course. To a lifetime "parkland course" denizen, a place like Ganton seems to have a wonderful scale and senses of openness, stretches or trees and gorse notwithstanding.
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It's interesting. I had never thought of Ganton as tight. I don't ever recall, in perhaps a dozen plays, losing a lot of balls. On many holes the actual playing corridors are reasonably wide. Particularly, I think, early in the round. On reflection, a few holes are really quite tight but not, I think, unfairly so. There's a difference between a hole where you might miss the fairway but still have a shot, albeit a tough one or a recovery and a hole where a small miss results in a lost ball.
Thank you! After a weekend with Sean and Brian going on and on about how narrow it was, I thought I was starting to crack up? ;D
Cheers,
James
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For unrelated reasons I was just looking at Golf Digest's Top 100 courses outside the US. Woodhall Spa was in at 23, Ganton at 29. Can I just check that everyone posting on this thread who has played both would agree that Ganton is superior to Woodhall Spa? For me, having played WS again in the spring, the gap between them is substantial.
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For unrelated reasons I was just looking at Golf Digest's Top 100 courses outside the US. Woodhall Spa was in at 23, Ganton at 29. Can I just check that everyone posting on this thread who has played both would agree that Ganton is superior to Woodhall Spa? For me, having played WS again in the spring, the gap between them is substantial.
Woodhall Spa may be more attractive, but I agree that Ganton is quite a bit better course. I don't understand the rating difference either.
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For unrelated reasons I was just looking at Golf Digest's Top 100 courses outside the US. Woodhall Spa was in at 23, Ganton at 29. Can I just check that everyone posting on this thread who has played both would agree that Ganton is superior to Woodhall Spa? For me, having played WS again in the spring, the gap between them is substantial.
The only way Woodhall Spa checks in at 23rd outside the US, is if you have panelists voting who have only played 22 courses outside the US. ;D :o
It was pleasant enough,in fact I would say really good through 12 holes, and no doubt I caught it unseasonably soft, but it's seriously lacking in variety on the back nine, and with the wealth of great courses in the UK and Ireland, to say nothing of the rest of the world, #23 seems a bit generous.
I suspect more "research" is required ;)
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Could the reason for Woodhall Spa being so high be it is where the EGU HQ is? Surely not ::) Nice course which would be almost great if the back nine was as good as the front but it is not in the same league as Ganton which I would put ahead of Sunningdale though many will disagree.
Jon
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Brian,
The heathland setting of Woodhall Spa is gorgeous, but I thought the vibe there felt a bit corporate. Not very charming around the clubhouse, which surprised me given the way WS is so central to the town. Did I miss something?
I can see being smitten with Woodhall Spa if it's the only heathland you've played, but if a rater made it there and hasn't played courses in the London area then I would be confused with their travel planning.
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Reference the Ganton-Woodhall Spa debate, which courses would you guys reckon to be the top, say 25, heathland courses in the UK?
All the best.
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Mark P
I will have to hold you responsible for dragging WS into a discussion about Ganton -- and making it about rankings to boot !
Sean
I am surprised by your (and Sheehy's) view of Ganton as narrow. I also am mildly disappointed in this 'championship links' nonsense. Actually, I think the two are related, but not in the way you've connected them. In the case of Ganton, the best way to put it is that it could be a championship links and it could be a members' links -- depending on conditioning choices and vagaries of weather. And that is Tom Paul's idea of the 'light green sheen' and Ideal Maintenance Meld.
Based on your reports and others, it sounds like Ganton has been running very fast the past couple of months (at least), and that has brought the bunkers into play more frequently.
Bottom line, Ganton is not too narrow (most times).
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Unlike some courses I've played (Royal Dornoch comes to mind) in all honesty I can not recall being within a couple club lengths of a gorse bush over the 6-1/2 rounds I've played there. And I've played it in conditions from nearly calm up to about a 15mph breeze (and two quite different wind directions on different days). During last year's visit in September the course was playing very, very "keen" by my standards. The club professional answered my inquiry by saying it was capable of playing faster but not by much.
The thicker, knee-high sections of rough were definitely capable of creating a lost ball situation from shots that looked very good for a long time. Even on the wide-open holes in the middle of the round, ones angle with a driver only has to be slightly off to result in a shot that rolls and rolls and bounces and rolls some more until it finds the heavy rough. And the bunkers are omnipresent, goes without saying.
The trees on the left side of the 16th do constrict the feel of the hole, combined as they are with ones knowledge of OB right. The 18th is the weakest second-shot hole on the course although I find the tee shot so thrilling that I'm willing to somewhat give the last 150 yards of the hole a pass for the tree and damp turf.
And granted, this is not an Old Course type experience where you can stand most places on the course and see for a mile in every direction. Obviously some of you folks play a lot more of that type course than I do and have developed a strong preference for wide open vistas. I am perhaps lacking in GCA bona fides by admitting that a bit of vegetation breaking up the expanse of a golf course feels more comfortable to me than playing out in the middle of a huge treeless plain. Heck I find Notts/Hollinwell to be just about an ideal mixture of grand views interspersed with big old trees (admittedly, that's not a links course like Ganton).
But that's just me. Makes me quirky by local standards hereabout, I suppose. It does seem odd I could go through more than a dozen lost golf balls in six rounds and never be in danger of pricking myself on a Gorse bush, given the perception that Gorse is a key element of the course.
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I've played maybe 1/10 as many English courses as yourself, Brian. But from that moderately small list, the comparison between Walton Heath and Ganton is one I can chime in on.
Walton Heath was my first non-USA course ever and my first exposure to anything quite like Heathland golf. In comparison to Ganton I'd have to deem Walton Heath a far more appealing piece of property and honestly a more pleasant place to spend a day. But hole after hole, shot after shot, the bunkering at Ganton is so excellent and its effect on the way a round is played is so invigorating that I would play Ganton over Walton Heath about 7 to 3 given a choice over 10 rounds.
I've commented before that for all the talk expended on this site about "bunkering this" or the "bunkers that" it wasn't until my first time at Ganton that I ever thought bunkers were more than eye candy or simply penal hazards. Bunker Ganton akin to Walton Heath (or Dornoch or Notts or 'most any other course I've ever played) and I'd rate it as a fine and challenging course on outstanding links turf. But to my surprise I find it elevated in my own pantheon almost entirely because of the sand traps. Heck of an achievement, that.
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Honestly, for me it isn't the gorse and trees. I adore heather. I wish every golf course I played was in a climate and soil that allowed its use as a primary hazard and a beautification/definition element in the visuals. At Walton Heath combine that with the perfectly degree of rolling topography, enough to add interest by elevation change and camber but not so much as to make the walk a chore, and you get a very, very appealing course in my book.
Also, when I was there in 2006 their tree clearance and heather regeneration program was in early days. It's my understanding that it's more open now than even then (much less than in the 1990's).
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Could the reason for Woodhall Spa being so high be it is where the EGU HQ is? Surely not ::) Nice course which would be almost great if the back nine was as good as the front but it is not in the same league as Ganton which I would put ahead of Sunningdale though many will disagree.
Jon
It might be just the other way around actually. When I visited Woodhall Spa (three trips but the most recent 20 years ago), Mr Hotchkin's son was still in charge and the vibe was homey rather than "corporate". Seeing that description was a bit of a shocker. The two guys who first told me of the place were Tom Weiskopf and Tony Jacklin who both loved it, but of course they aren't as discerning as Mark P.
Personally I'm a fan of both Ganton and Woodhall Spa. Neither is a 10 on the Doak scale but both are either a 7 or an 8, and deserve a great deal of respect. I think both benefit a bit from being away from London where there are so many heathland courses they all blend together; you could throw Alwoodley in the same category. Each is just a little bit more distinct and that helps them in rankings exercises, even though none is really as good as Swinley or St George's Hill.
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Tom,
Sad that you feel the need to attempt to put down a discussion you disagree with with a cheap shot. I'll ignore that and trust you were just a bit cranky. Tell us, how did Weiskopf and Jacklin feel Ganton compared to Woodhall Spa?
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Sean
I am surprised by your (and Sheehy's) view of Ganton as narrow. I also am mildly disappointed in this 'championship links' nonsense. Actually, I think the two are related, but not in the way you've connected them. In the case of Ganton, the best way to put it is that it could be a championship links and it could be a members' links -- depending on conditioning choices and vagaries of weather. And that is Tom Paul's idea of the 'light green sheen' and Ideal Maintenance Meld.
Based on your reports and others, it sounds like Ganton has been running very fast the past couple of months (at least), and that has brought the bunkers into play more frequently.
Bottom line, Ganton is not too narrow (most times).
Mark
I can't get behind "most times". Bottom line, Ganton was in just about perfect condition so far as f&f is concerned and the width of the course didn't support that aspect of the maintenance. Just as with wind, width has to take into account keen conditions. People keep mentioning the bunkers, but the design I saw was more about short grass VS long grass/trees/gorse. The bunkers often didn't create tiger/rabbit scenarios and there was more of a thread the needle or else feel about the course rather than one where temptation was the order of the day.
I can get behind Ganton being a course which could be all things to all people, but than when talking about potential many places could be described in the same way. It was quite clear to me that Ganton is a great course regardless, but the course I saw wasn't as fun nor attractive as it should or could be - such a pity.
Tom D
Sounds like when you saw Woodhall it hadn't been sold to the EGU yet. Woodhall is now quite firmly in the tourist rota, a huge percentage are British and more specifically English - not surprising since the EGU own it.
I don't think there is anywhere near the divide in quality between Ganton and Woodhall as others see, but I do think Ganton is great and Woodhall is not. That said, I much prefer Ganton, mainly because the greens are more interesting and I prefer Ganton's flow. About the only thing I didn't like about Ganton's actual holes was the lack of par 3s and one was quite long - like there weren't enough long approaches to be had elsewhere.
Ciao
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Tom,
Sad that you feel the need to attempt to put down a discussion you disagree with with a cheap shot. I'll ignore that and trust you were just a bit cranky. Tell us, how did Weiskopf and Jacklin feel Ganton compared to Woodhall Spa?
You are right, I should not have disparaged either Of those two fellows by suggesting they were not discerning.
I have never asked either gentleman about Ganton. I would be surprised if Tom Weiskopf has ever been there, and I'm away from my office so I can't check. Perhaps I'll run into T Jacklin around Birmingham this week, or is he full time in Florida nowadays?
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Tom,
Why the snarkiness towards the OPINION someone shares about a course you haven't seen in 20 years?
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It would be interesting to know the widths of some of the landing areas such as on 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 13, 14 & 18.
My rough measure of fairway landing areas -- 210 yards from spot 1/3 forward of back of member tee using Google Earth:
1 = 43 yards (bunker to bunker)
2 = 33 yards
4 = 27 yards
9 = 32 yards
13 = 26 yards (right on the RH bunker. Move 1 yard closer to tee and width is 42 yards; move 5 yards farther and the width is 34 yards.)
14 = 49 yards -> note: I chose 185 yards off tee as 210 would put golfer through the fairway and no one would hit a 210-yard shot on that hole
18 = 44 yards (note: I measured perpendicular to the line of the tee shot rather than perpendicular to the direction of the fairway
Again, these are fairway widths not playing corridors.
(If you figure on a longer carry than 210 you're probably playing farther back, so hopefully it all comes out in the wash.)
And Brian: the 18th is not an abomination. It is the closing hole of an excellent match play course. The 17th is the decider hole and is about winning with a par; 18 is about winning with a birdie.
Yes, it could lose trees, although not for the reason or location I suspect you're complaining about but rather to bring back the original Pandy and its associated strategies.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Ganton/L1050999.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/MSBIII/media/Ganton/L1050999.jpg.html)
(http://psychobunny.smugmug.com/Other/Ganton/i-Rf56N8J/0/X3/Pandy-X2-X3.jpg)
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Okay
That is 36 yards on average. Now chuck in lay of the land (2, 9, 14 & 18 are sloped toward trouble), firm conditions (how much width is that worth - minimum 5 yards, maybe 10), wind (even a 10-12 mph wind can have disastrous effects on fairways that narrow with that much trouble about)and blindness (9 & 18). 36 yards ain't wide when there is brutal rough and cavern bunkers waiting. Plus you left out 16. So far as I am concerned, you made my point. I know you may say but firm conditions aren't normal, but they are ideal and the set-up should accommodate perfect conditions. I am very happy to agree to disagree with you and say Ganton is not firing close to all cylinders in its present state. Thats okay, we all look for different things in golf and I am on record a million times as to my views about championship golf.
Ciao
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I don't want to keep belaboring my own meager comments but I'll speculate on more time on the night and day difference between my own impressions and the ones you guys came away with this summer.
Maybe Ganton when it's playing super-firm and the breeze is up just happens to suit a very short and relatively straight hitter. Maybe I just don't hit it far enough to have seen so many balls running across or through fairways and into trouble (or into the trees and gorse bushes of which I was hardly even aware). I hit my fair share of approach shots out of the wispy rough and lord knows I rolled into plenty of bunkers. But if each fairway had been 20 yards wider than it was (September, 2012) I'm not sure it would have saved me more than a stroke a round or something like that.
So that's my final chime-in on this thread. It's the first time I can ever recall having such a totally opposite experience of a golf course as any of the GCA folks with whose games I am somewhat familiar...
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I have never found Ganton to be narrow in any shape or form though I was quite surprised at how the trees appear to have encroached in on 16. Looking at the widths given by Mark it would appear to be quite wide enough though I do not recall Sean as being petty over such things. I guess I will have to try and get across for a game during the winter ;D.
Jon
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Jon
Of course appropriate width is a matter of opinion. Ganton is not different than most any other championship GB&I course - nearly all play tighter than I prefer. My position is that proper width will seem excessive when conditions are benign. TOC has always been the poster child for this attitude and it has over the past 110 years slowly been made to step in line with all other championship courses. Its a great shame because soon there won't be any proper examples of width in championship courses to which we can point to as examples. Memories and photos will fade until eventually folks will think an average of 35 yards of width on hard sloping fairways in wind with severe punishment for missing the short grass is a wide course - its not something I want any part of. It may sound harsh, but thats my opinion. To me, the loss of width is one of the great golf crimes of my lifetime. I can't think of anything else which has been so detrimental to my enjoyment of the game.
Ciao
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Sean, three thoughts:
1) the widths I gave were for fairways not playing corridors. I wish they'd widen the fairways in spots, yes, but let's keep in mind the playing corridors are wider than the numbers supplied earlier. I am far from straight but the only two holes where the corridor widths bothered me were 4 and 9. We may be stuck with the trees down the right of 9 given potential boundary issues. Under pressure I could be persuaded to add 18.
2) this notion that Ganton has lost some width may have merit insofar as fairways could be wider in spots and conditions could sometimes be slower. Additionally, some trees and gorse here and there could go. But the real constraint on many if not most holes is not mowing lines or playing corridors but fairway bunkers. And those bunkers, unlike places like Merion, are not marooned in rough. Bunkers touch fairway. To make your argument that Ganton has narrowed its course in a meaningful sense requires one to conclude either the course plays faster than it used to (consistently around the clock) or that the club moved its bunkers towards center.
3) adding width at Ganton via expanded mowing lines and removal of trees actually could present a harder course. The ball would be carried out to the gorse and the wind off the moors would have unfettered access to golfers' airborne balls. More 'championship links-like', to appropriate your term. If trees come out then playing corridors will have to be widened, although not necessarily fairway widths.
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Mark
I don't have anything more to say. We have a very basic disagreement over what makes for optimal strategic golf. You think Ganton is awesome and I think Ganton could be awesome. No worries.
Ciao
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I played at Ganton on Friday evening. I hate to say it but I am coming round to the view that Sean is right about the width. There is quite a lot of thick rough around bunkers that are clearly in play and some of the playing corridors are quite narrow. It's a great course but the generous use of a mower, a chainsaw and the removal of some gorse could improve it significantly.
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Let's do this then. Next full moon we brave the werewolves out on the moors and have a Chainsaw Massacre party out there. I'll make the masks but who's got a Triplex??
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Mark
Cheers. It is possible to have width, interest, challenge and fun all in one design. The saddest thing is the Green Keeper's great efforts are largely lost in green soup :-\
Ciao
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I played at Ganton on Friday evening. I hate to say it but I am coming round to the view that Sean is right about the width. There is quite a lot of thick rough around bunkers that are clearly in play and some of the playing corridors are quite narrow. It's a great course but the generous use of a mower, a chainsaw and the removal of some gorse could improve it significantly.
Mark
How much of the lushness of the rough is down to the unseasonal weather ? I wonder what it would be like in a normal summer, whatever that is. It reminds me when we played Silloth in the Buda Cup and the lushness of the course then was something I hadn't seen in all the years I was playing down there.
Niall
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Niall - go easy with comments on unseasonable weather. I know you guys haven't had much of a summer but down here it's been pretty dry and everything's rather baked. What it's been like in East Yorkshire, I couldn't say.
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Niall - go easy with comments on unseasonable weather. I know you guys haven't had much of a summer but down here it's been pretty dry and everything's rather baked. What it's been like in East Yorkshire, I couldn't say.
Yes, a lot of courses in The Midlands are dry. The weather has been cold, but relatively little rain. Although, I played Burnham the other day and its not dried out...just normal firm.
Ciao
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In Northumberland it's been a wet summer, so I expect it has in the East Riding, too. That would explain the thickness of the rough (which wasn't any worse than the rough at the Northumberland, for instance) but not the extent of it, nor the encroachment of gorse and shrubbery into what I would consider the playing corridors.
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My week at Ganton was in 2012 during a bone-dry September following a drier than usual August. I thought the fairways per se were wide enough for play in the 10mph breezes I had most of the week. Only one round was some serious wind, gusting about twice that much, and I found the "rough" quite often. But it was so baked out that unless some wispy stuff grabbed the hosel, no worries. Flyers galore but no wedge out sideways type stuff.
I'll take Mark and Sean at their word that serious vegetation like gorse and shrubbery do impeded play but I have to wonder whether some of that encroachment has been since 2012. I only recall a couple of holes where I felt like I needed to steer well clear of that sort of stuff by aiming away from the obvious playing line.
To my memory, much of the heavy upright vegetation was far enough from the fairway that a rolling ball would be stopped by the rough and an aerial shot would have to be seriously errant (again, with the exception of 2-3 holes). In any case I'd say more than half the holes were fairway/rough/bunkers only in play and my impression was of sufficient but not extreme width.
Usual caveats apply. Memory is from 3 years ago, I am a very short and usually somewhat straight hitter and I doubt I encountered any winds or gusts over 20mph for more than 45 minutes total during my six rounds.
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Brent
I am not trying to be funny, but I don't think you hit the ball far enough to really challenge the bunkers at their pinch points unless you move forward of the daily tees. There is space to lay back, but that makes for a long day.
Ciao
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For better or worse, it was so dry and firm that week (not quite like Hoylake the year Tiger won but definitely iron shots kicking up puffs of dust instead of grass from the fairway) that I found I actually did have to take into account more bunkers than I would have anticipated just looking at a Strokesaver or something.
I can recall several times landing 30 yards short and 20 yards wide of a bunker and rolling into it with plenty of momentum to spare. Another caveat of my memory is, I was so damned focused on not getting into those bunkers that I may have been blissfully unaware of the odd gorse bush out in my peripheral vision!
But yes, point taken. Ganton is is that category where even medium-length hitters will encounter difficulties that are beyond my tee shots and easily bypassed with my long second shots.
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Brent,
I played 72 holes there in a couple of days back in 2003, which was the hottest driest summer in recent memory. It was an absolute blast and played pretty easy because the rough wasn't a problem at all. I do think that some of the gorse has grown in since then, too.
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I played Ganton yesterday and was highly impressed.
After an appallingly wet winter during which most golfers have been at risk of trench-foot, Ganton was a shock. The fairways and particularly the greens were bone dry and frighteningly fast. Can there be a better winter course in the country? Is there any point paying the summer green fee?
I loved the fact that off the daily tees a modest length hitter like myself was at no disadvantage. I played with three low single figure handicappers and their greater length simply found them more trouble. Ganton is a course where steady accurate golf is rewarded and good scoring possible if you stay out of the bunkers and gorse. Few holes are out of reach in regulation for average players who plot their way round carefully.
The greens are some of the very best I've ever seen. Lively undulations and deceiving borrows are consolidated by immaculate conditioning. Even in February!
Ganton leaps into my admittedly parochial top 3 alongside Alwoodley and Formby. I certainly found it the most fun.
A warning to anyone travelling to Ganton, however. Avoid Leeds any time between 7am and 10am. It took me 3.5 hours to get there from Manchester and only 2 hours to get back.
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Duncan
Your description of trouble for bigger hitters was exactly what I didn't like about Ganton. You crow now, but go back in summer when the course is keen and you may sing a different tune. So many holes are of a penal nature being pinched between sand and rough/gorse...sometimes with canted fairways pushing balls into trouble. I think Ganton is great, but if it the corridors were wider it would shoot up my best of list.
Ciao
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You may well be right Sean, but it might also just be a yellow tee problem. The course from the white and blue tees plays a lot longer and the pinching problem you describe would only be an issue for the real flat bellies.
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Duncan,
Ganton is always really firm even in winter as you have noted but in summer the ball does seem to roll for ever on many of the holes which might lead to the problem that Sean is talking about.
Jon
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TOO firm and fast?
;)
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TOO firm and fast?
;)
I spent a couple of days there with Giles Payne in the summer of 2003, which you may recall was a drought and heatwave in the UK. The course was like concrete but was an absolute blast to play. Amongst the most enjoyable golf trips I have ever been on. You did need to think about club selection and pick very, very canny lines and had to accept playing a lot of shots from the (at the time) very thin first cut but I don't recall playability being anything of an issue then. As I said earlier in the thread, though, I think that corridors are a bit narrower now than they were then and most summers the rough will be a lot thicker than it was in the driest, hottest summer I can remember!
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TOO firm and fast?
;)
Duncan
No way...Ganton was in absolute top nick when I was there. I wouldn't want to see the course less keen.
Ciao
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Has anyone a recommendation of the best course other than Ganton within half an hour from Scarborough? This rules Seaton Carew and Fulford out...
What about Filey or South Cliff?
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Has anyone a recommendation of the best course other than Ganton within half an hour from Scarborough? This rules Seaton Carew and Fulford out...
What about Filey or South Cliff?
Filey is okay and requires a good short game. Not sure if Hornsea is close enough but it is not a bad course and usually in decent nick. I recall the course at Flamborough Head having some good holes as does Scarborough North Cliff. None are world beaters but certainly enjoyable.
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Has anyone a recommendation of the best course other than Ganton within half an hour from Scarborough? This rules Seaton Carew and Fulford out...
What about Filey or South Cliff?
Filey is okay and requires a good short game. Not sure if Hornsea is close enough but it is not a bad course and usually in decent nick. I recall the course at Flamborough Head having some good holes as does Scarborough North Cliff. None are world beaters but certainly enjoyable.
Thanks Jon. I'm trying to base a trip around Ganton but need to flesh it out with two cheaper courses. Looking at staying at a lovely wee hotel in Filey. Decent small town for views, food and a few gentle pints?
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Ally,
another thought would be York Golf Club (Strensil) which is a good 18 hole course east of York close to the A64. Not sure if it is close enough or at the right price.
Jon
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Have a look at Beverley - it is an old course on common ground with cattle much in the same vein as a number of GCA favourites and play close to the race course. I have only played it once but remember enjoying it. http://beverleygolfclub.co.uk/Home.aspx
It had it's centenary in 1989 so it has plenty of history.
Beverley is an old town from the wool trade (technically a city as it has a cathedral) and was obviously wealthy at one time.
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Giles,
Beverly is indeed a quirky course that many here would enjoy. I had completely overlooked and you are correct that along with a visit to the town it certainly is one to consider.
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Beverley Minster is a gothic masterpiece and one of the great buildings of England; no-one with any interest in architecture would find a visit there a waste of time.
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Ganton = the best inland course in GB&I according to my newly formed opinion, more of which can be seen on the Ganton vs Alwoodley thread.
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Ganton = the best inland course in GB&I according to my newly formed opinion, more of which can be seen on the Ganton vs Alwoodley thread.
Ally
Lets hear about other courses you played.
Ciao
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Sean - I played Filey and Scarborough South Cliff, both of which had far more moments than I was expecting. Good topography and good variety in the holes.
Both somewhat lacking in detail design but they exceeded my - admittedly pretty low - expectations.
It is perhaps a shame that Ganton doesn't have another high quality course nearby to make the trip a more attractive proposition. I'd quite happily stick on Ganton itself for a whole 4 days but that's not everyone's cup of tea.
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Comments on another thread got me looking at this Ganton photo tour and also the drone flyover footage on the clubs website.
Really surprised by the number of trees and the amount of shade on some of the greens.
Most of the trees seem to be around 70-50-less yrs old and most likely self-seeded not planted which makes me wonder about maintenance regimes past and present and what the course might be like a few years/decades ahead if corrective measures aren't adopted.
Did sheep and cattle graze Ganton before WWII I wonder?
Atb
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Thomas,
I can recall winter grazing with sheep during the late 70's. Many of the trees are self seeders though more have been planted :'(
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Just seen Gordon Irvine's facebook that they are restoring the cape style bunker on the 18th :)
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Just seen Gordon Irvine's facebook that they are restoring the cape style bunker on the 18th :)
:o
Ciao
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Just seen Gordon Irvine's facebook that they are restoring the cape style bunker on the 18th :)
Ben,
if it is the one I am thinking about off the tee it was more of a wind blow than defined bunker. It will be a big improvement on the scrub though.
Jon