Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim Colton on July 29, 2013, 06:30:53 PM
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http://www.golf.com/photos/golf-magazine-top-100-golf-courses-2013-newcomers/cabot-links?fb_action_ids=10153055534225291&fb_action_types=og.likes#343693
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Congrats to Ben, Ran et al.
Not the end all be all but as a public facility this is a nice feather.
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No real surprises. I haven't heard much about Rye? Royal Melbourne East must be excellent with the new grass.
On the US side, CC of Fairfield and Forest Dunes are rarely discussed. Aronomink should have never left the list.
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Funny that they led with the two Streamsong courses (top courses in the U.S.) ahead of the newcomers to the World list. I wonder if they were trying to soft-play Trump International being their highest-rated new course?
[full disclosure: I saw it too late to vote on it this time. Next time my vote will surely offset Ran's.]
Rye is one of my favorite places ever ... and the shortest course in the top 100, but you would expect that since par is 67 or 68.
Surprised that Royal Melbourne (East) came into the list, but I'm sure the club will be happy to see it.
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Funny that they led with the two Streamsong courses (top courses in the U.S.) ahead of the newcomers to the World list. I wonder if they were trying to soft-play Trump International being their highest-rated new course?
they did US first (in order of finish on list) then World (also in order of finish). we are all US-centric!! ;)
getting out on Eastward Ho! tomorrow for the first time. weather is supposed to be sweet. can't wait!
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I guess this means that they are less than 52 US courses in the Top 100 world list. Does anyone recall the split last time?
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Nice to see Eastward Ho! on that list. Keith Foster must have done an incredible job with that course. It's incredible. To keep it up to date while blending it well enough to feel genuinely old and authentic. Great job Keith!
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Funny that they led with the two Streamsong courses (top courses in the U.S.) ahead of the newcomers to the World list. I wonder if they were trying to soft-play Trump International being their highest-rated new course?
[full disclosure: I saw it too late to vote on it this time. Next time my vote will surely offset Ran's.]
Rye is one of my favorite places ever ... and the shortest course in the top 100, but you would expect that since par is 67 or 68.
Surprised that Royal Melbourne (East) came into the list, but I'm sure the club will be happy to see it.
Tom,
I suggest you ask Eamon Lynch why they led, online, with Streamsong? It was, and is, his call.
[ full disclosure: I suppose my vote will become the tiebreaker btw you and Ran! ;) ]
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I guess this means that they are less than 52 US courses in the Top 100 world list. Does anyone recall the split last time?
50-50 Jim, Congressional Blue was US 51 and 1/100th of point from making the world list. Not that I was interested in 100ths of points last time around. ;)
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Who do we see about getting Rye off this list? Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?
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Who do we see about getting Rye off this list? Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?
Mark:
Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.
Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other. I wonder if that has changed?
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Tom,
There's always the question of not confusing cause and effect. I wish they wouldn't have added irrigation. I'm sure they didn't do it to make the list but I can see the impact of that decision being making the list. Hopefully it doesn't go any further than that. It sure was nice to have at least one legitimately top tier course that could bridge us in this way to the past.
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Tom,
There's always the question of not confusing cause and effect. I wish they wouldn't have added irrigation. I'm sure they didn't do it to make the list but I can see the impact of that decision being making the list. Hopefully it doesn't go any further than that. It sure was nice to have at least one legitimately top tier course that could bridge us in this way to the past.
Seems too early to have a cause/effect with the new watering system. Although, this year of all years the difference in conditioning should be very marked.
It seems to me there should always be a sacred four which are automatic for the world top 100. One is, but the other three should be as well.
Rye
North Berwick
TOC
St Enodoc
I spose since there is no mention of Deal it didn't make the list. Hopefully it was seriously considered.
I know it wasn't on the table, but Formby too should be a serious contender.
Ciao
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Sean, I don't think I've ever seen St Enodoc on a World 100 list. Why do you think that is?
Brian
Somehow the magic of St Enodoc must not translate as well as North Berwick's does. While different in their routing make-up, the two courses are quite similar in their boldness.
-Both have iconic holes, but of course one of NB's is a template used the world round. One can't say that for any of SE's holes.
-Being in Scotland helps out NB.
-St Enodoc has the stretch of holes behind the church which are not valued much even though 12 & 14 are excellent.
-Folks can't abide by some of SE's charm, such as #s 3 & 10. Perhaps these are just too difficult?
SE's eccentricity seems to translate as charming while NB's seems to translate as charming and great.
I am amazed that Trump I made 50 in the world. It shows that there is no such thing as bad publicity. In its current state, Trump shouldn't really make top 25 GB&I.
Ciao
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Rye is one of my favorite places ever ... and the shortest course in the top 100, but you would expect that since par is 67 or 68.
Based on your photos, Rye was the course that Rod most wanted to see on our tour of 30+ links courses. It was also the bunkering that influenced Cabot's more than any other.
It was on the list twice in 95 and 97 (I think), but it is great to see it back on.
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Who do we see about getting Rye off this list? Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?
Mark:
Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.
Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other. I wonder if that has changed?
No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.
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Tom,
There's always the question of not confusing cause and effect. I wish they wouldn't have added irrigation. I'm sure they didn't do it to make the list but I can see the impact of that decision being making the list. Hopefully it doesn't go any further than that. It sure was nice to have at least one legitimately top tier course that could bridge us in this way to the past.
Seems too early to have a cause/effect with the new watering system. Although, this year of all years the difference in conditioning should be very marked.
It seems to me there should always be a sacred four which are automatic for the world top 100. One is, but the other three should be as well.
Rye
North Berwick
TOC
St Enodoc
I spose since there is no mention of Deal it didn't make the list. Hopefully it was seriously considered.
I know it wasn't on the table, but Formby too should be a serious contender.
Ciao
Every voting period I try to push people to see Deal b/c I think 1) It is superior to Rye and 2) It is worthy of the list. Getting panelists to visit there is not easy given so few go to Kent on a golf trip. I know the purveyor of this site sees it my way but we are only 2 votes..I'm more interested also to see how high the Cal Club can climb the US list, it is supremely worthy.
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Who do we see about getting Rye off this list? Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?
Mark:
Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.
Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other. I wonder if that has changed?
No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.
Craig
Nothing wrong with auto watering in principle. Its how its managed which is important. I think we can point to a long history of mismanagement on both sides of the pond with these systems. Its easily done if the wrong folks get in charge. Very slippery slope if you ask me because folks usually forget what the original intent was.
Tuco (is not dead)
While I think Deal should be given serious consideration for top 100, I would never say it is superior to Rye.
Ciao
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Craig,
So you're saying they put in an entire watering system just to change two parts of the course? ??? Anyway, as far as I know, I am the only "some people" complaining! :)
And I agree with Sean's and your point that once you have it you can abuse it. And can you say with any certainty systems didn't change TOC and Sandwich? Those are rota courses and who knows what sorts of changes were enabled.
And keep banging that gong, Noel! Why can't Deal supplant Rye? It certainly can because what Sean A doesn't acknowledge is that these lists, particularly at the bottom, are not about the courses but the people rating them. As more GCA.com types get on the board, the definition of greatness changes even as the courses themselves don't.
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Who do we see about getting Rye off this list? Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?
Mark:
Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.
Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other. I wonder if that has changed?
No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.
Craig
Nothing wrong with auto watering in principle. Its how its managed which is important. I think we can point to a long history of mismanagement on both sides of the pond with these systems. Its easily done if the wrong folks get in charge. Very slippery slope if you ask me because folks usually forget what the original intent was.
Tuco (is not dead)
While I think Deal should be given serious consideration for top 100, I would never say it is superior to Rye.
Ciao
Sean-
I can’t elaborate at the moment but here is my issue. I find holes 1-3 and 10-11,17 pedestrian/prosaic at Rye .. That is my opinion and flavor. But that is 6 holes. At Deal, one could argue that numbers 8,9,11 are pedestrian. That’s half as many holes. Furthermore the best holes at Rye 4,5,7,9,13,16,18 are countered in my mind by 3,4,6,10,15,16,17 at Deal. Finally, I think the greens at Deal are superior to Rye as far as contours are concerned. That is from memory, I’ve not been to Rye since 2008 in fairness. That said I vote both in the World Top 100.. It is splitting hairs. But for my money St.Enodoc is of course worthy as well.. I’ll give you one other thing, no one gives any love to St. Andrews New. Severely underrated in my own personal golf list.
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Craig,
So you're saying they put in an entire watering system just to change two parts of the course? ??? Anyway, as far as I know, I am the only "some people" complaining! :)
No. What I said is that the watering system was installed to address an agronomic problem - the native fescues were disappearing and being replaced by thicker meadow grass and weeds. There is an ideal links character that is much easier to maintain with intelligent use of irrigation than relying on the vagaries of the weather. From what I've seen Rye is doing that - one day, a greens staff was testing the fairways with a moisture probe making sure the watering was appropriate. The changes I mentioned were to two problem areas where grass was extremely sparse, especially on 5. The south facing slope barely had any grass cover.
You're not the only complainer, although you might be the only one on this DG. I've heard similar comments from members of other clubs in the area.
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Who do we see about getting Rye off this list? Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?
Mark:
Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.
Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other. I wonder if that has changed?
No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.
Craig
Nothing wrong with auto watering in principle. Its how its managed which is important. I think we can point to a long history of mismanagement on both sides of the pond with these systems. Its easily done if the wrong folks get in charge. Very slippery slope if you ask me because folks usually forget what the original intent was.
Tuco (is not dead)
While I think Deal should be given serious consideration for top 100, I would never say it is superior to Rye.
Ciao
Sean-
I can’t elaborate at the moment but here is my issue. I find holes 1-3 and 10-11,17 pedestrian/prosaic at Rye .. That is my opinion and flavor. But that is 6 holes. At Deal, one could argue that numbers 8,9,11 are pedestrian. That’s half as many holes. Furthermore the best holes at Rye 4,5,7,9,13,16,18 are countered in my mind by 3,4,6,10,15,16,17 at Deal. Finally, I think the greens at Deal are superior to Rye as far as contours are concerned. That is from memory, I’ve not been to Rye since 2008 in fairness. That said I vote both in the World Top 100.. It is splitting hairs. But for my money St.Enodoc is of course worthy as well.. I’ll give you one other thing, no one gives any love to St. Andrews New. Severely underrated in my own personal golf list.
Tuco
#2 at Rye is at least the measure of any par 3 at Deal so we have serious disconnect off the start. I see now you have gone from "superior" to "splitting hairs" - quite a different stance.
TNC is not in the same league as the others mentioned. It is in no way worthy of top 100 world. Nothing wrong with it mind you and one I would revisit if in the area when I'm organizing, but its far from special. I can see it as a Doak 6 tops - we are talking about minimum 7s no?
Ciao
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Sean- I define superior like Webster.. Higher/status/rank. To me Deal is superior on the Top 100 Golf rankings than Rye. My prose is correct. Splitting hairs means they are close as in I vote them near each other but Rye will never overtake Deal in my mind.
I think #2 is a fine hole at Rye but is it really better than #14 at Deal? I think not. Furthermore the current Sandy Parlour is pretty damn strong as a hole. Play it downwind and tell me how to play it correctly. Alas, 8 is not great but it is the only hole you hit dead straight at the North Sea with and its hungry pots gobble up any indifferent stroke. That said, Rye wins the day at 5 and 7 easily which are vastly superior to Deal's offerings. Also I find 14 a good hole but sandwiched b/t 13 and 15/16 a bit of a let down although you may say the same of Deal's 14th. Finally, the 17th is just long and flat without much interest, I've examined it with Russell Talley and I recall saying it was just a letdown to get to 18.
Also you are comparing a course with 5 par 3s vs. 3 par 3s.. Is a larger sample size.
When you look at Rye, Deal has vastly superior par 5s from the tips (3 and 16) although Rye only has #1.
The par 4s are of great debate..
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I am not a fan of the 14th - wrong type of hole in a tough stretch of golf.
What you say about Deal's SP is also very true about Rye's 2nd, try it down wind and then add in the bumpy terrain. You and Brian are missing a trick here with your home course leanings.
Tossing out the routing, the 3s at Deal are its weak point - that and the bunkering. There really is no excuse for not having a very good set of 3s. The first mistake is there are only three...
Below is a look at the holes you are dismissing so lightly.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/042.jpg?t=1343599150) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/042.jpg?t=1343599150)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/21September2009210.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/21September2009210.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/077.jpg?t=1343598563) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/077.jpg?t=1343598563)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/058.jpg?t=1343598843) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/RYE/058.jpg?t=1343598843)
Okay, I can understand if you don't like water on a links - there goes #11 despite its excellent qualities using the angles. I can understand if you don't like flat holes, there goes #17 despite it being in complete contrast to the other par 3s. I can never buy saying #s 2 & 3 are anything less than very good. That is simply a question of not paying attention to detail.
Ciao
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Sean, this will devolve into another Deal vs. ? or the merits of Deal debate. #2 at Rye is over low profile hummocks where you can pretty much hit a ball that goes 6 feet above the ground and run in and hope it doesnt go into the pots flanking.. Downwind any approach will be tough on any links hole. I brought up downwind at Sandy Parlour b/c you have to flight the ball to carry the rushes and judge how to run it up a brilliant crowned green that throws off approaches--- where if you hit the right side it will slide off and almost always make 4. Having the elevated tee and view of the cliffs of Ramsgate is also one that leads to aplomb.
As per 14, let me see Deal has 3 par 3s. One is a short iron, one a mid iron and one a hybrid or 5 wood. Call me crazy but that is variety amongst shots plus they all play in different winds. Finally, so what the whole back 9 plays hard without much in the way of letups, but you have a short par 5 and a receptive green at 17 so buck up buttercup. 14 lets you bail out left if need be and besides you may need to hit the same shot into 15 on the approach (hybrid).
Deal's bunkering? Easy now fuzzy little man peach hmm.. Are you kidding me. They are revetted monsters that have the surrounding terrain funnel balls into them. The course is not overbunkered and ones like the left one 7 green or left side 15 green (which finds may awry shots that hook off the huge dudescape) are ingeniously placed. Deal plays over and thru the landform, it didnt need bunkering to gloss it up. It is not Royal Melbourne.
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Tom,
There's always the question of not confusing cause and effect. I wish they wouldn't have added irrigation. I'm sure they didn't do it to make the list but I can see the impact of that decision being making the list. Hopefully it doesn't go any further than that. It sure was nice to have at least one legitimately top tier course that could bridge us in this way to the past.
Seems too early to have a cause/effect with the new watering system. Although, this year of all years the difference in conditioning should be very marked.
It seems to me there should always be a sacred four which are automatic for the world top 100. One is, but the other three should be as well.
Rye
North Berwick
TOC
St Enodoc
I spose since there is no mention of Deal it didn't make the list. Hopefully it was seriously considered.
I know it wasn't on the table, but Formby too should be a serious contender.
Ciao
Every voting period I try to push people to see Deal b/c I think 1) It is superior to Rye and 2) It is worthy of the list. Getting panelists to visit there is not easy given so few go to Kent on a golf trip. I know the purveyor of this site sees it my way but we are only 2 votes..I'm more interested also to see how high the Cal Club can climb the US list, it is supremely worthy.
Agree on Cal Club. Played there this April and I thought it was as good, if not better than Pasatiempo & Olympic Lake, and better than Spyglass & MPCC Shore.
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Reading this thread and looking at the photos in the initial web-link, has prompted me to wonder what if we built a 10,000 foot high wall around every golf course. No views at all. None.
How many allegedly 'great' and top ranked courses with tremendous views and scenery would still be at the top of the rankings? A ranking based purely on the quality of the golf course, nothing else.
Would Turnberry and Pebble, to name just two top ranked courses with tremendous views, still be highly equally ranked or would less visually attractive courses such as, no offence intended, somewhere like Seaton Carew, a well thought of test of links golf near Hartlepool/Middlesborough in NE England, but from which you can see tall industrial industrial chimneys, chemical plants, dock cranes etc all so high that not even giant redwoods could block them out, suddenly turn into golfing swans overnight.
This is not by the way, intended as a criticism of the quality of golf available at Turnberry or Pebble or Seaton Carew and the like, for there must be other fine tests of golf elsewhere on the globe that also have visually unattractive backdrops, but I can't help feel that views and scenery seem to count for sooo much in course rankings.
Just a thought.
All the best
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Sean, Ran likes hole by hole comparison..
Deal wins 1,2,3,6,10,11,12,17
Rye wins 4,5,7,8,9,13,18
Halves at 14,15,16 (the toughest one to pick is 16)
Deal wins 1 up..
And if you throw in a course you can have a major/amateur on, thats another notch for Deal. I dont care about that but just saying..I cant see your pictures at work but i went back to Frank Pont's site to double check and my memory of those holes is that they are pedestrian--they are good, i wouldnt classify as you as very good but regardless below the levels of 2 and 3 at Deal..if I go hole by hole..
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PSA: Golf.com is counting down the top 100's in chunks of photo slides, if you're interested. 76-100 are up today.
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Looks like those dropping from the list were:
Nanea
Chambers Bay
North Berwick
Valley Club
Highland Links
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Sean, Ran likes hole by hole comparison..
Deal wins 1,2,3,6,10,11,12,17
Rye wins 4,5,7,8,9,13,18
Halves at 14,15,16 (the toughest one to pick is 16)
Deal wins 1 up..
And if you throw in a course you can have a major/amateur on, thats another notch for Deal. I dont care about that but just saying..I cant see your pictures at work but i went back to Frank Pont's site to double check and my memory of those holes is that they are pedestrian--they are good, i wouldnt classify as you as very good but regardless below the levels of 2 and 3 at Deal..if I go hole by hole..
My take
1. Deal – both holes have issues, but I like the approach at Deal
2. Deal – I like Rye’s 2nd plenty, but Deal’s is a good humpty bumpty 4
3. Half – Deal’s hole is well over-rated; the green site yields very predictable results
4. Rye – no brainer
5. Rye – no brainer
6. Half - Very tough call
7. Rye – tough call though because Deal’s hole is better than appearances suggest
8. Rye on default – Deal’s hole is very suspect
9. Half – tough call
Rye +1
10. Deal – no brainer
11. Rye – great use of water, Deal’s hole too much like the 9th
12. Deal – just as I think the hole is over-rated as its all about the green
13. Rye – no brainer
14. Half – I don’t care for Deal’s hole, but Rye’s has the weird wood jobs
15. Half – close call
16. Deal - I actually think the holes are quite even, but I will always give over to the fine par 5
17. Deal
18. Rye – Deal could win this, but for the green being cut-off.
Deal +1
All square in the hole to hole matchup. But I give the edge to Rye because the routing sequence of holes uses the wind and its dunes better than Deal does. Thats the major limitation with an out n' back routing.
We are very close in our assessments.
Ciao
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Sean and Tuco
Both Rye and Deal are potential "top 100" material, but so are at least 2-300 courses in the world. There are 20, maybe 30, courses that stand out from all the rest because they have the same je ne said quois that Lauren Bacall had, but not Audrey Hepburn; Caravaggio had, but not any of the brothers Caracci; the Beatles had, but not the Kinks. After you pick the top 20-30 golf courses you are just picking nits.
Rich
PS--if you want me to join your pissing contest (or even if not...) I preferred Rye over Deal when I first played the two in 1981, but now prefer Deal to Rye. Go figure...
rfg
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the Beatles had, but not the Kinks. \
Rich
Rich,
Did you ever try dancing to "A Day in the Life?"
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the Beatles had, but not the Kinks. \
Rich
Rich,
Did you ever try dancing to "A Day in the Life?"
No, Craig, but neither did I even think of dancing when I fist heard "Celluloid Heroes"......
All the best
Rich "First Saw the Kinks Live in the Grantham Armoury in 1966" Goodale
PS--Littlestone is in that top 2-300 mix too, and if I ever had the choice of the 3 clubs to join, I would follow in the sadly missed footsteps of Jim Goby......
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Sean and Tuco
Both Rye and Deal are potential "top 100" material, but so are at least 2-300 courses in the world. There are 20, maybe 30, courses that stand out from all the rest because they have the same je ne said quois that Lauren Bacall had, but not Audrey Hepburn; Caravaggio had, but not any of the brothers Caracci; the Beatles had, but not the Kinks. After you pick the top 20-30 golf courses you are just picking nits.
Rich
PS--if you want me to join your pissing contest (or even if not...) I preferred Rye over Deal when I first played the two in 1981, but now prefer Deal to Rye. Go figure...
rfg
Rihc
Of course you are right, but its good to wind Tuco up, not that he needs much winding.
I am not sure about The Kinks not having whatever it is you said. Sure, the buying public went with you, but then the buying public bought the Spice Girls and Abba. Go figure.
Ciao
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the Beatles had, but not the Kinks. \
Rich
Rich,
Did you ever try dancing to "A Day in the Life?"
No, Craig, but neither did I even think of dancing when I fist heard "Celluloid Heroes"......
All the best
Rich "First Saw the Kinks Live in the Grantham Armoury in 1966" Goodale
PS--Littlestone is in that top 2-300 mix too, and if I ever had the choice of the 3 clubs to join, I would follow in the sadly missed footsteps of Jim Goby......
And for those of you too young to remember the Kinks and celluloid, click below and enjoy....
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=celluloid+heroes+youtube&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35
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Mentioned in one of the earlier posts, but the CC of Fairfield is hardly mentioned and its truely spectacular. I was surprised no one else commented on this.
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Fox Chapel is a pretty cool edition
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I've played with some well travelled players at Deal recently, many on return visits. The problem with Deal is its too subtle, on a first visit there are no stunning views, massive dunes or outstanding features. The course somewhat like TOC needs a little learning and certainly more than one quick lap and filling in a rating sheet. These guests grew to love the course on second and third rounds.
11 has the only shot of the entire round directly into a prevailing wind.
Sean play 14 off the ladies or blue tee it's a pleasant 160 yards.
The 1st is a drive and a pitch over a dyke to a massive heavily contoured green. I don't know the measure of a good hole only to say in the Amateur Championship I believe 12 matches went to the 19th but only 2 made it to the 20th. A sub 400 yard drive and pitch decided 10 matches, Garrick Porteous made the final with a bogey from the ditch in his semi.
Finally Deal has 8 holes without green side bunkers.
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Chappers
If Deal is too subtle the world of golf is in trouble. There are quite a few in your face shots. Okay, there are no grand dunes and the feel of the place is less than handsome - not helped by the house being stranded across the road, but Deal isn't ugly and there are spots where its very attractive. I have been banging on at you for yonks to help this situation out by spending some money along the seawall. That is by far the worst aspect of Deal aesthetically and I can't see why it isn't landscaped much better - especially areas which are not far off playing corridors.
I agree about #1, the drive is a bit alarming for the first of the day, but the approach is very fine.
I wouldn't mind playing off the ladies tee at #14. It sounds a much better fit than having another banger shot when there are plenty of those coming home. If I can convince my playing partners this weekend to allow those with the honour to choose the tee I may have a shot at giving it a ago.
Ciao
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Sean
Maybe Mark just meant it's too subtle for rankers. By definition they are a 'well traveled' lot. They're not going to park themselves at one course to learn its strengths, failings, charms, and challenges. They're hitting and running.
Deal aside, I think he makes a valid point about subtlety and rankings. As we've discussed on the board before, rankings discourage inaccessible architecture. Probably the only reason TOC is ranked highly is because essentially golfers are conditioned to like it. If you could take a group of rankers out there for their first round and on a random day, supposing somehow these rankers had never heard of the course before, where do you think they'd rank it?
Exhibit 2 regarding rankers undervaluing the subtle and overvaluing the obvious is the success of Fazio. Starts great gets worse. What's really being ranked - in addition to the rankers' preferences - is one-n-done hit-n-run golf. Because that's the ranking system. Yes, all this probably is less true for the handful of courses universally acknowledged as great.
Anyway, I love this is turning into another Deal thread. I don't understand though why Noel hopes for the course's inclusion in the Top 100. He's just asking for it to be overrun. If it gets the Open then not only will it be overrun, Dr Dawtree will make a visit or three.
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Mark
Isn't part of the ranking process to acknowledge good design even if it doesn't particularly thrill the ranker? I can understand a wee cut for whatever reason (we can think of loads to justify our stance), but to dismiss a course because of that issue when it is otherwise an excellent course? It seems a bit harsh to me. When I look at my Links 100 it is loaded at the top end with courses I am not overly thrilled about, but so what? Where is it written that a ranker has to praise what he ranks highly?
Ciao
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Sean
That is not my point. My point is subtle architecture is inaccessible architecture: it takes multiple plays to see what's really there. In contrast, architecture that hits you in the face may appear excellent and thrilling at first but one tires of it over multiple plays.
Mark
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These last few posts highlight something I agree with and have also indicated about ranking versus subtle architecture...
Rankings used to be done by people who had just played a lot of golf at a lot of great courses... More so now, they are ticked off on a hit 'n' run.
People consistently miss the charms of Portmarnock and with it being removed from big pro championships, it will no doubt fall in the rankings. But there is more great architecture at Portmarnock than many courses the hit 'n' runs would rate above it.
I reckon I would absolutely love Deal having seen the land on photos - it is very near the top of my must sees and I'll make sure it's a three round stop minimum when I eventually get there...
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Sean
That is not my point. My point is subtle architecture is inaccessible architecture: it takes multiple plays to see what's really there. In contrast, architecture that hits you in the face may appear excellent and thrilling at first but one tires of it over multiple plays.
Mark
Mark
Yes, of course, but isn't all architecture worth talking about the sort you reference? To really get a grip one needs to play a course in all seasons and with different winds. That is a tall order for nearly everybody and perhaps one reason in favour if discounting the opinions of one hitters - no matter who they are.
Ciao
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Mark-
To be silent is not to lose your tongue. On the contrary, it is only through silence that one can discover something new to talk about. One who talked incessantly, without stopping to look and listen, would repeat himself ad nauseam--Alan Watts
I feel like the 2nd part of that quote but I think like the first point.. I'm not sure Deal will ever get on that list. And does that even matter, composing the list is like purposeless play. It is just fun to compile and Deal is one of my favorites and having seen most of GB and I over the last 15 years, I joined only that club because of its merits. I've never seen a tour bus at Deal and hope I never will. Sure the club would be welcoming and friendly to visitors, but it will never see the Open again, maybe the Senior Open or Walker Cup but the men arent coming back. And I want that open for one selfish reason.. I want to sit on the sea wall on #6 and watch the pros play it..
So all in all, I am just a Don Quixote figure when it comes to Deal. There really is no place to go with it, I just like to take on windmills- don't even get me started on Royal Hague...
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Sean
Maybe Mark just meant it's too subtle for rankers. By definition they are a 'well traveled' lot. They're not going to park themselves at one course to learn its strengths, failings, charms, and challenges. They're hitting and running.
Deal aside, I think he makes a valid point about subtlety and rankings. As we've discussed on the board before, rankings discourage inaccessible architecture. Probably the only reason TOC is ranked highly is because essentially golfers are conditioned to like it. If you could take a group of rankers out there for their first round and on a random day, supposing somehow these rankers had never heard of the course before, where do you think they'd rank it?
Exhibit 2 regarding rankers undervaluing the subtle and overvaluing the obvious is the success of Fazio. Starts great gets worse. What's really being ranked - in addition to the rankers' preferences - is one-n-done hit-n-run golf. Because that's the ranking system. Yes, all this probably is less true for the handful of courses universally acknowledged as great.
Anyway, I love this is turning into another Deal thread. I don't understand though why Noel hopes for the course's inclusion in the Top 100. He's just asking for it to be overrun. If it gets the Open then not only will it be overrun, Dr Dawtree will make a visit or three.
Mark,
Your presumptions are, at least when applied to GM Panelists, patently false. Folks like Ran, Ben, Tom, Noel, Jeff, Joe et.al. are indeed "well traveled," but hardly "hitting and running" as you proclaim. More of the folks on that panel have years of experience seeing an extremely diverse variety of worldwide venues, ZERO interest in access, and a far greater concern for learning about the architecture of the course they are playing. They also possess a greater appreciation for the nuance of such designs.
Your "Exhibit 2" is yet another falsehood. I can't speak to the large number of dolts at GD who consistently manage to miss most everything in front them (save for resistance to par), but the GM folks, for the most part, regularly play multiple rounds on whatever course they are considering for ranking. They spend a good deal of time discussing the apparent merits and detriments of what they've seen. For example, the inclusion of Fox Chapel & Milwaukee into the Top 100 US was a result of multiple plays by a good # of panelists.
I think your blanket, and perhaps misinformed, statements deserve a better qualification or restatement.
Sean,
You are correct. Personally, I've considered several courses better, purely on their design than on pleasure of play. I'd believe others have done the same .
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Steve
As with any poll, its nice to know the story behind it. Rankings are no different. I would love to be able to read the stories of the rankers, their actual individual rankings with comments on why they are as they are including how many times the courses were played and in what seasons/winds. That info seems to be a trade secret for some reason, but its highly important in lending credibility to a panel. I am willing to bet many courses ranked were one and dones or the day and done by a significant number or panelists Its virtually impossible to expect otherwise. Just look at guys like Ran and Tom. A ton of experience across the world board and a ton of experience for a limited number of courses. What I believe happens is that experience is transferred to expect rankers to know what they are seeing in one or two goes. Do you not think this is the case or are you saying panelists have intimate knowledge of say 250 courses around the world to make judgements?
Ciao
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Noel,
Your bona fides are above reproach. The record clearly shows when you hopped on RCP there wasn't so much as a donkey much less a bandwagon to hop on. So no bullshit straight up: I absolutely love it when someone flat-out loves a course, warts and all.
Steve, okay maybe the reason the panel membership apparently is turning over is the editors tired of having to rig the results after the votes are in. But to my jury-pool point, changing who's on the panel is a form of manipulating the results, too. In no way am I questioning the honor, intelligence or capabilities of the individuals. But we are all human and are bound to our own experiences, biases, and beliefs. I think Sean's idea of distinguishing favorites from "greatest" is a noble idea ultimately not possible -- unless one creates a set of criteria so clearly defined and above misinterpretation they create an unescapable straightjacket by which to assess a course.
But in that case all that's been traded are the biases of the group for those of whoever decides the criteria.
These are my opinions although in my defense I am familiar with a few ways to use statistics to lie. :)
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Mark
Isn't part of the point of "favourites" is that there is no justification needed? Once we use words like " best" and "greatest" then an opinion needs data to support it - if it be an opinion worth anything. And since its only opinions, the endless go rounds happen about what is best, how is it determined etc etc. I have always said I am far more interested in favourites lists because
1. I get a sense of what that person values in architecture/ambience/history.
2. The list will be more varied than simply a best of list - which at the end of the day once we can accept raters as knowledgeable - the lists all look the same. A pointless exercise for the most point.
Ciao
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Sean
I am with your op cit post more than your ibid. ;)
I'm not much for lists, they're a thin gruel of discussion. Now, if everyone on a panel did write ups like Ran here (or you, for that matter) that would be much more interesting. Probably.
Mark
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Reading this thread and looking at the photos in the initial web-link, has prompted me to wonder what if we built a 10,000 foot high wall around every golf course. No views at all. None.
How many allegedly 'great' and top ranked courses with tremendous views and scenery would still be at the top of the rankings? A ranking based purely on the quality of the golf course, nothing else.
Would Turnberry and Pebble, to name just two top ranked courses with tremendous views, still be highly equally ranked or would less visually attractive courses such as, no offence intended, somewhere like Seaton Carew, a well thought of test of links golf near Hartlepool/Middlesborough in NE England, but from which you can see tall industrial industrial chimneys, chemical plants, dock cranes etc all so high that not even giant redwoods could block them out, suddenly turn into golfing swans overnight.
This is not by the way, intended as a criticism of the quality of golf available at Turnberry or Pebble or Seaton Carew and the like, for there must be other fine tests of golf elsewhere on the globe that also have visually unattractive backdrops, but I can't help feel that views and scenery seem to count for sooo much in course rankings.
Just a thought.
All the best
I tend to disagree that what makes a course special is entirely within the confines of the course. I would agree with you insofar as many panelists seem to dramatically overrate courses with great views. I remember a GD seminar where the speaker noted that it seemed as if no course without a mountain range or ocean view ever seemed to score high in GD's version of that category. That said, wind off the ocean certainly plays a factor in many of the great links layouts. I also find the lack of a backdrop to pose certain other unique challenges. Judging distance to a skyline green or on a links course adds a degree of difficulty and uniqueness. Many of the courses that seem to rank highly each year have great views, but I wouldn't penalize them for it.
It's undeniable that a good piece of ground can help create a good golf course. Would Shoreacres, Pebble, Pine Valley, etc. be nearly what they are if the holes were laid across a flat canvas? I think not. I think it's simply important not to be blinded by purely beautiful views, but a great view adds to the intrinsic enjoyment of the course and can also pose unique challenges.
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Looks like those dropping from the list were:
Nanea
Chambers Bay
North Berwick
Valley Club
Highland Links
Greg,
With the amount of raters I've dragged (not too many were reluctant, I might add) to North Berwick over the past 2 years it was only going one way :)
68th.
Simon
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Looks like those dropping from the list were:
Nanea
Chambers Bay
North Berwick
Valley Club
Highland Links
Winged Foot East maybe????
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Looks like those dropping from the list were:
Nanea
Chambers Bay
North Berwick
Valley Club
Highland Links
Greg,
With the amount of raters I've dragged (not too many were reluctant, I might add) to North Berwick over the past 2 years it was only going one way :)
68th.
Simon
Saw that and just took next guess above... assumed that those falling were from the bottom 25 and when NB was not 76-100 I made what seemed a logical assumption. Unless WF Eastjumped into the top 50 it is the one.
Some real movement from previous list...
Old Sandwich 67 to 90
Berwick 89 to 68
WF East 75 to NR
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Seems like lots of Raynor/MacDonald courses on these lists.
Is it too much?
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Seems like lots of Raynor/MacDonald courses on these lists.
Is it too much?
Also a distinct tilt towards Coore and Crenshaw courses.
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BTT ( back to topic) I am really curious how much the gang in the Tree here perceive the rankings to be influenced by our community and members?
The listing that really stands out to me is Eastward Ho - a course championed by GCA. I’ve been lucky to play this course many times, just not in the past three years, and while I love it, I suspect some people are uncomfortable with the hilliness and small greens. The views of Pleasant Bay are staggering and are probably a compensating factor. While not remote, Chatham – Cape Cod is not really on the way anywhere except Wellfleet, Highland Links in Truro and P-town, not to mention it is not an easy course to get on, especially in the summer.
To me this is a course that may have been boosted in the rankings because of the favorable opinions here on GCA, albeit rightly so.
So, how much influence do we have? How many raters are in the community and do the heads of the rating agencies, whoops .…publications lurk here often?
I think I saw evidence of this at the recent Paramount event where employee hosts were posted on many of the holes and one asked McKinnon and I who we rate for.
My apologies if this sub-topic has been covered previously on a post I have not read.
Wm Flynnfan
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Bill,
I agree with you that there are many raters who frequent this message board. Having attention brought to bear on a lesser known course certainly can't hurt that course's ability to get raters in. Once there, I think GCA's pull is minimal. It might predispose someone to like or dislike a certain track, but I'd like think I'd be objective enough not to really let that influence me. I've been disappointed plenty ot times by big name courses and blown away by some unheralded ones. But I do think GCA helps get raters to focus on places they might have overlooked and some connections made here doubtless help raters get on.
DBC
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Out of curiosity, what do folks think are (personally) the lock top 100 from GB&I and which are courses with a good shout?
Ciao
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For starters, I'd play 10 out of 10 rounds at Prestwick over the European Club...
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Ballyneal seems very low. Courses like Woodhall, Olympic, Maidstone all ahead of it - all good courses but not in Ballyneal's league. I'd be surprised if Oitavos dunes was.
Am I overestimating Ballyneal here or do others agree it's an anomaly?
I think you're overestimating Ballyneal. You're in pretty good company and it's not even the best course in the Sand Hill region.
Olympic continues it's dive since every conceivable poor decision was made to prepare the course for the 2012 US Open. Now the pros are long gone they are left with a mess and the rankings show.
2009 41st
2011 43rd
2013 57th
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Okay, to get things going - locks for me are
Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Prestwick
Royal St Georges
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Serious Contenders
Cruden Bay
Formby
N Berwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
The Island
Trump International
On the Table
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking
Ciao
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BTT ( back to topic) I am really curious how much the gang in the Tree here perceive the rankings to be influenced by our community and members?
The listing that really stands out to me is Eastward Ho - a course championed by GCA. I’ve been lucky to play this course many times, just not in the past three years, and while I love it, I suspect some people are uncomfortable with the hilliness and small greens. The views of Pleasant Bay are staggering and are probably a compensating factor. While not remote, Chatham – Cape Cod is not really on the way anywhere except Wellfleet, Highland Links in Truro and P-town, not to mention it is not an easy course to get on, especially in the summer.
To me this is a course that may have been boosted in the rankings because of the favorable opinions here on GCA, albeit rightly so.
So, how much influence do we have? How many raters are in the community and do the heads of the rating agencies, whoops .…publications lurk here often?
I think I saw evidence of this at the recent Paramount event where employee hosts were posted on many of the holes and one asked McKinnon and I who we rate for.
My apologies if this sub-topic has been covered previously on a post I have not read.
Wm Flynnfan
Bill, I belive there are about 10-12 GOLF panelists that aprticipate here.
Of the others I have met I would say half think GCAers are a bit touched and the other half are line with most thinking put forth on this site.
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Interestingly I cannot find a GB&I top 100 list where Rye is above Deal!
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Okay, to get things going - locks for me are
Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Prestwick
Royal St Georges
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Serious Contenders
Cruden Bay
Formby
N Berwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
The Island
Trump International
On the Table
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking
Ciao
Sean: you forgot Enniscrone. And I question your inclusion of Turnberry - knowing you ;)
PS - I don't need to see Trump to decree its serious contender status as bullshit.
Brian, no I didn't forget Enniscrone. I love the course, but it falls just a bit shy of on the table.
Give us your locks etc.
Ciao
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Sean,
You have completely lost the plot.
Muirfield only "on the table"? Perverse. It's a lock in my book and I can't see how even you or Ran couldn't recognise it as a serious contender at least. Your inclusion of Rye as a lock is, at best, odd. It's a decent track but a clear class behind Muirfield and Dornoch. I'm a fan of Deal but putting it ahead of Dornoch? Inexplicable. Crudeness Bay ahead of Muirfield, Dornoch, Hoylake and Swinley? What is this, a novelty golf competition? I loved Crudeness Bay but it has more bad holes than any world top 100 course can carry. I'm probably going to get drummed out of town for this but the same can be said of North Berwick. Great place, great fun, great golf but World Top 100 ahead of Carnoustie, Muirfield, Dornoch and Hoylake? Never.
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Hi Mark,
I wouldn't put Hoylake or Carnoustie ahead of North Berwick but I agree with Muirfield and Dornoch. Out of interest, why would you put Carnoustie and Hoylake ahead of NB and what would you class as bad holes at North Berwick?
Please read my tone as curious, not defensive, as I'm simply interested to see how your account of the holes stacks up against mine....its not a perfect golf course by any means.
As far as some of Sean's suggestions, well, interesting is the word. I think RCD, Muirfield and Portrush leave Prestwick in their wake. North Berwick and Cruden Bay are superior to Prestwick for my money too. But each to their own, "Its ALL good" as one of my good friends always tells me.
I do agree with Carnoustie, Hoylake and Troon being in Sean's 3rd tier. That's no bad thing; it's a tough crowd.
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:-X
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I have played Deal and Rye this week and there were discernable differences.
1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.
2. While Deal does have a few extremely quirky spots, Rye is the quirkier course all around.
3. The prevailing wind at Rye is a crosswind, whereas in Deal one plays more into or with the wind.
4. The variety of hole configurations is slightly better at Deal. Rye has only one par 5 (the first) plus a double dogleg par 4, which could be called a three shotter.
5. Rye is not especially beautiful, but Deal is... well, Deal :)
Overall I think Deal is the better course. But not by much.
Ulrich
Ulrich
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Okay, to get things going - locks for me are
Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Prestwick
Royal St Georges
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Sean you magnificent bastard! This is such an interesting list -- are you sure it's 'greatest' rather than 'favo(u)rite'? For many 'normal' people would see this and call it favourite.
To paraphrase Kerry Packer, there's a little bit of the ranker in all of us, gentlemen. And so, to show Steve L I am not a total crackpot, or I should say I am a wanker 23.50 hrs daily and a ranker 00.10, here go my locks:
Ganton -- always always Ganton. The cheese stands alone.
WH Old -- the more I consider my rounds on this course the more I think it underappreciated (don't know where it's ranked so not commenting on whether it should be ranked, is underranked, etc).
St G Hill -- although I hate that like Sunny Old it has a life preserver hole. Embarrassing.
Woking -- I refuse to allow my love of this course get in the way of its clear-eyed excellence.
Rye -- but for the 11th one of the world's truly tippy top courses, not just links.
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1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.
:'(
Once upon a time Herr Mayring one would have been cryit doon for tasting Rye out of season.
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Okay, to get things going - locks so far
Ballybunion Old
Ganton
Lahinch
Muirfield
Prestwick
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Rye
St Georges Hill
Sunny Old
TOC
Walton Heath Old
Woking
Serious Contenders
Cruden Bay
Formby
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International
On the Table
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Muirfield
N Berwick
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking
Okay with the two Mark's, Simon and Ulrich chiming in - see above. I can't vouch for Ganton or WHO, but many people tout them highly. Royal Dornoch, why not, everybody seems to think it belongs. Same for Co Down. Many believe Portrush to be the equal of Co Down - so why not? I am not at all sure about Woking, but that is the reason the there are courses on the table, same for St Georges Hill.
There has been a cry to kick Trump out, but the man hasn't laid eyes on the place so the cries shall go unheard. Though we shall add Enniscrone to the table for the man man from Ireland.
Any other comments?
Ciao
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Sean:
I firmly believe that Prestwick should be back IN.
Can't believe that you don't even list Woodhall Spa Hotchkins as "on the table" ...It is likely IN.
Turnberry is IN.
Of your current IN courses, haven't played Woking or St. Georges Hill...are they both locks?
Despite Mark B's passion for Ganton, it would be OUT for me but a contender.
I would include Swinley and The Island as IN but would understand those who wouldn't.
Bart
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Bart, well one could say use of the qualifier "likely" moves Woodhall Spa by definition from "lock" to one of the other categories. I have my doubts about Turnberry and TOC (haven't played enough times to form an opinion) to name two, thus my exclusion.
I'm the one that suggested Woking and SGH. I have no idea what others think but in my mind they are dead solid locks. My first round at Woking was a revelatory thrill; subsequent rounds only got better. There is no need at Woking for the soft bigotry of classic-course expectations, that track has the most interesting green complexes and fun to putt greens in the Stockbroker Belt and well beyond.
Way back in the recesses of my mind lurks a simple doubt regarding SGH. It comes down to a single manmade object approximately two feet in diameter and round, found on the right side of the 14th hole. But what a course, oh my!
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Mr Mayring failed to declare an interest, Chappers is cooking his and Gabriella's breakfasts this week!
I'm interested to hear that Rye is green, lets hope the new watering system is used sparingly. I am a massive Rye fan usually getting to play there a couple of times a year. It is however too quirky for me to play every week.
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locks so far
Ballybunion Old
Ganton
Lahinch
Muirfield
Prestwick (back in due to demand)
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Rye
St Georges Hill (the guy who pushed has doubts)
Sunny Old
Swinley Forest
The Island
TOC
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Woking
Serious Contenders
Cruden Bay
Formby
Ganton
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International
Woking
On the Table
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Muirfield
N Berwick
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking
Woodhall Spa
Okay, Bart and Brian have spoken and Mark has spoken again.
I think we can begin to see the problem of lists - too many courses for the number of slots. The number of locks has gone up 2.5 times my original number and I am still disappointed a few others are out such as St Enodoc and North Berwick - they would be in well ahead of many on the lock list if I am the Czar. The very interesting thing is the deal with the heathland courses. Do folks want to choose a proper heathland such as WHO or bail a bit and put forward St Georges Hill, Woking or Sunny? All fine courses, but far from what they should be. Sunny Old was the only lock for me and it is slightly disconcerting to have this as the sole rep especially when I much prefer Woking's superior greens. But geez, the walk in the park scores are off the charts.
The one selection which seriously disappoints is Turnberry. People fall for the views and forget there are holes which fail to impress out there with not nearly enough very good holes to balance the books.
Anybody else?
Ciao
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Heathland-wise, I'd personally throw West Sussex and Alwoodley on to the table.... As you probably know, I'd at least air Porthcawl at dinner too... And possibly Baltray (the latter ahead of County Sligo for sure)...
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locks so far
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton
Lahinch
Machrihanish (out of nowhere!)
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Prestwick (back in due to demand)
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Rye
St Georges Hill (the guy who pushed this has doubts)
Sunny Old
Swinley Forest
The Island
TOC
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Woking
Serious Contenders
Cruden Bay
Formby
Ganton
Kingsbarns
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Waterville
Woking
On the Table
Alwoodley
Baltray
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Loch Lomond
Muirfield
N Berwick
Pennard
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham
Royal Porthcawl
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
West Sussex
Woking
Woodhall Spa
Ally surfaces and Brian weighs in big-time. It has finally happened, I am finding the list too sterile with courses like Portmarnock, Carnoustie and Muirfield. At least Turnberry was kicked out - tee hee. Its not the way I would go if I were Czar. On the other hand, the inclusion of Machrihanish (which I have more than serious reservations about) is at least interesting. When I look at Machrihanish I see holiday golf. And when I think of holiday golf Machrihanish doesn't hold a candle to Pennard so I could never consider the idea of Mach on the list. Somebody has to support me on this - surely?
Ciao
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Lock’s
Alwoodley. As good as any London track with more variety than most.
Ganton. The stand out inland course in GB&I
Pennard. If one is looking to play the best of GB&I you should include a wild and natural links. Brora or Elie also come to mind but if you missed all three you’d miss something very special. Pennard merits it’s place.
Portmarnock. Admittedly only played once but seems to me the links course which is the epitome of the analogy of “the subtlety of a fine l wine that grows on you”.
Turnberry. I can see a few debating points but no more than most of others.
Royal Aberdeen. Oozed quality.
Royal Worlington – if ever a course was a “must see as it will confound your expectations” this is it. It deserves itss place on it’s merit as a fine and interesting test of golf.
I’ll happily resign my place from any panel that can’t see that Prestwick and North Berwick are locks.
Out Woodhall Spa and Walton Heath Old. WHO just doesn’t work for me. Flat land and a course defined by nasty bunkers. Have played it 3x and walked it in the US Open qualifier following good golfers at least as many times. I have clear preference for the new as having the more interesting terrain and shots.
Interesting that the West Lancs area doesn’t attract much interest. I think Hoylake is the most interesting, probably not a Lock but I’m prepared to be outvoted on that. Personally I can’t see any other contenders there, but the other Open venues should get consideration?
Finally I think Brancaster has something special about it and would put it in the mix for discussion. Again if you never experienced the charm of the course you’ve missed something special. Along with Woking there’s something terribly appealing about how fine and ‘English’ the Golf is.
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Simon,
It seems I got into a linguistic pickle yesterday. My use of the word "hated" has been picked up on another thread and now I see I used the word "bad" in relation to one or more holes at NBWL. It's not fair to say there are bad holes at NBWL, there aren't. However, I don't find 2-5 a compelling stretch and 8 is not a great hole, either as a par 4 or 5. 9 really gets it going but the 10, whilst a good hole isn't brilliant. From there on in it's as good as anywhere I have played, excellent hole after excellent hole with a slight, but only slight tailing off at 18. Certainly top 50 in the UK but perhaps not, I think, World top 100. That said, it may be a serious contender, looking at others on Sean's list, now that Muirfield and Ganton have moved up. (N.B. There are, obviously, dozens of courses on these world top 100 lists I haven't played. I make my judgment based on courses that don't make it or that are in the lower echelons that I have played.)
Sean,
After revisiting Woodhall Spa in the Spring I find it difficult to believe that it is on the table.
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Thank you, Sean! Now I know why I deplore reading the "experts" telling me which are (or aren't) the top courses...I am a no good HOLIDAY GOLFER. ;D Pennard, Machrihanish, N. Berwick...all in my top 10.
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locks so far
Alwoodley
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton (back by popular demand)
Lahinch
Machrihanish (out of nowhere!)
Muirfield
North Berwick (like a yo yo)
Pennard (geez!)
Portmarnock
Prestwick (back in due to demand)
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Royal Worlington (Brian said the fatal words "I don't think a 9 holer can even be on the table" - wrong approach for best courses)
Rye
St Georges Hill (the guy who pushed this has doubts)
Sunny Old
Swinley Forest
The Island
TOC
Turnberry (back by popular demand)
Walton Heath Old
Woking
Serious Contenders
Cruden Bay
Formby
Ganton
Kingsbarns
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Waterville
Woking
On the Table
Alwoodley
Baltray
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Loch Lomond
Muirfield
N Berwick
Pennard
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham
Royal Porthcawl
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
West Sussex
Woking
Woodhall Spa (off the table?)
Spangles speaks, but is it just getting crazy now? 22 courses can never work can it? The Unofficial GCA.com rankings included 29 GB&I courses! Maybe this crowd is being judicial. If it gives you any consolation, I feel the same about N Berwick. I really believe that if a list like this has no room N Berwick, St Enodoc, TOC and Rye than something has gone seriously wrong in the world of golf. Just as a hint, N Berwick made 38 in the Unofficial GCA.com rankings. We have some hard headed folks round here. Why no mention of Formby? You were to be my champion.
Eric - I am with you. I don't need nor want a deadly serious test of golf - especially while on holiday.
Ciao
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1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.
If the fairways are green in this glorious weather, then what hope do they have for the rest of the year? Will we ever see those lovely straw yellow fairways again? Sad to hear, but, like Chappers, I am hopeful that they tone it down a bit in the future. Interesting to hear it's the fairways that are green when the supposed justification was to save fescue roughs?
I walked around Rye early this morning and there is a noticeable difference between the fairways today and 3 days ago - they are greener and even though the rough looks brown, the ground is quite soft and there is a noticeable green tint taking over. The change wasn't caused by the fairway watering. Two days ago Rye was drenched with a day and a half of persistent rain. The lawn in the front of our house also changed from brown to green. I suspect Rye is now playing like it does during the winter although with the forecast for the next few days, it will return to f&f fairly quickly - as it was before the rain.
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Why no mention of Formby? You were to be my champion.
Ciao
I can see Formby if it's to be a list of "Courses you need to see if you want to experience all that's best of GB&I" as offering hybrid qualities with a great overall experience. However it just missed out on the Must Play/Lock thread. Sadly.
(To be honest this thread makes Top 10 in the "Least defined listing of all time". It surely means different things to different folks? So I just went with gut reaction to pick the "Locks". It's certainly top 50 in the UK but then 22 is still a small no.)
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I'm enjoying this thread as it's helping me target courses I haven't played but maybe should aim to play one day.
I was wondering however, since the thread has developed into a discussion of GB&I lock-ins whether this particular element of the discussion could be moved to a separate thread. This might also help for future reference via the search engine.
All the best.
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1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.
If the fairways are green in this glorious weather, then what hope do they have for the rest of the year? Will we ever see those lovely straw yellow fairways again? Sad to hear, but, like Chappers, I am hopeful that they tone it down a bit in the future. Interesting to hear it's the fairways that are green when the supposed justification was to save fescue roughs?
I walked around Rye early this morning and there is a noticeable difference between the fairways today and 3 days ago - they are greener and even though the rough looks brown, the ground is quite soft and there is a noticeable green tint taking over. The change wasn't caused by the fairway watering. Two days ago Rye was drenched with a day and a half of persistent rain. The lawn in the front of our house also changed from brown to green. I suspect Rye is now playing like it does during the winter although with the forecast for the next few days, it will return to f&f fairly quickly - as it was before the rain.
Yes, my garden lawn was completely brown - to the point where everybody told me it was dead. I said have no fear. After a few days of good rain, the green is coming back. I shall cut it today!
Spangles
I didn't think Formby was a lock, but when I see some of the other courses touted it is disappointing that Formby doesn't get its due. Given the list now up, Formby very comfortably slots in.
Ciao
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And Alwoodley - a lock?? I haven't played it but that is strong given it's never sniffed that World 100 list. I'm playing it in September so will report back!
Brian
I implore you, think for yourself. Also, are you a member at Deal or have any relationships with the club? (I have no idea, just want to see more transparency.)
Moving on, if SGH gets removed due to that doubt of mine then let me repeat: Sunningdale Old has a life preserver hole too -- and that water looks dumber than SGH's. So wipe SO.
Tony, we'll just have to disagree. I think WHO has lovely ground movement, just the right amount to create interest. It's a great walk. (I've played it four times.)
Craig, okay fair enough. I guess the question is, did Ulrich see both courses prior to the rains that hit Rye but perhaps not Deal?
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Sorry Mark, two folks say Sunny Old is a lock. You are the only one who is touting the Hill that loudly. Besides, I don't mind Sunny's water hole in the least - tee hee. I am not stuck in an anti-water funk on heathlands. At least the water is used whereas at the Hill that par 3 is a very odd duck. I gotta believe there is a story behind that hole. Although the heathlands course I really question is Swinley. Great course, wonderful ambience, but in my experience the conditioning has always been sub par for top notch heathlands. Usually, slowish, bumpy greens. I definitely thing the Hill trumps it and Woking is its equal - those greens!
Ciao
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Sean,
I cannot believe you have not played Ganton :o Best inland course in GB&I. Sunny Old having played it is not as good as Alwoodley. The 5th sucks as I have said in other threads. Having seen Trump several times (though not played it) I would not have it in the top 100 in its present confused state.
Jon
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I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.
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I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.
Bit like the Doak Scale eh Tom ;)
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Gil Hanse was recently quoted saying North Berwick is possibly the second most architecturally significant course after TOC.
It has a stunning backdrop, originality galore, beautiful flow and excellent greens. Hardly any visiting golfers, if any at all, leave the 18th green without commenting that its one of the best courses they have ever played.
The plethora of tour pros that sacrificed practise rounds at the Open, or slipped in an 18 at North Berwick in the evening and RAVED about it, would tend to suggest if even has something to keep the longest of hitters happy, too. (Bubba hit 5 iron to 18)
Clearly I am very biased but I don't think it's too 'home town' for me to say its more than just 'on the table'...it's feet are well under the table at 68. That might be a little high but it's certainly Top 100 in the world, no questions. I 100% agree that there are some "mehh" holes but not many.
At the end of the day, surely an argument can be made that the best course in the world is one that guys or gals want to play over and over again? I know that would be my yardstick if I had the ability, knowledge, time and money to build a course of my own. Anyone who says there are 100 courses; no 50 courses, that are more fun to play than North Berwick...is smoking something far stronger than I ever have.
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I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.
Bit like the Doak Scale eh Tom ;)
The Doak Scale is just one man's opinion. That's what gives it some weight. These rankings are consensus opinions, which quickly fall apart when you realize that there is not really that much consensus that everyone can agree on.
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At the end of the day, surely an argument can be made that the best course in the world is one that guys or gals want to play over and over again? I know that would be my yardstick if I had the ability, knowledge, time and money to build a course of my own. Anyone who says there are 100 courses; no 50 courses, that are more fun to play than North Berwick...is smoking something far stronger than I ever have.
If everyone agreed that the rankings were about "fun to play" then North Berwick would be in the top 30. But, there are some people (not me) who think that to be ranked that high, a course needs to be strong enough to host some sort of championship, and North Berwick is just dismissed by some panelists for being "too easy". That's the reason there is no real consensus about most of these courses, because nobody really agrees about what the qualifications are for being a "great golf course". And that's as it should be ... much better than writing a stupid definition of what it means and warping the results away from what the panelists really think.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's just if they don't think NB is Top 100 then I don't respect their opinions anymore ;) I'm sure people will be devastated by that...
It's a good job Tom has raved about NB for years, so he's on my safe list. :)
Interesting question.... Given NB has kind of come back into Top 100 fashion, as many of these courses do, can we attribute that to Tom building Renaissance just down the road? Not that the physical building of Renaissance had anything to do with it but the fact all Tom's guys were staying in the area and falling in love with it again? The timing of the last two rankings ('11,'13) could be more than just coincidence but I doubt it. The golf course hasn't changed, so why the rise in the rankings?
Tom and the guys were telling all their friends and associates that respect their opinion, that then filters through to the rankings as more and more people talk about it?? Any evidence of this happening with other courses that come in and out of the Top 100?
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To be fair Ulrich played Deal on Sunday the day after a massive storm and Rye Wednesday. I'm at Sandwich tomorrow morning and Deal in the afto so it will be interesting to see how they stack up.
There are far too many good courses on the lock in list; West Sussex, Alwoodley, Machrihanish and Pennard are good but not stunning or great. Swinley Forest is in an "Aussie cricket team phase" and likely to be in the wilderness for a year or two.
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Okay, Chappers speaks up. Well, I can readily concede Pennard isn't great,but to say it isn't stunning really hangs you out to dry. It is perhaps the most stunning course in GB&I!
Simon is in for N Berwick and I will take it Doak is too.
Thats 21 and I don't get my St Enodoc, but to but to balance that Worly gets a surprise inclusion. Some day folks will cotton on to its charms and brilliance.
Alwoodley
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton
Lahinch
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick
Portmarnock
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Royal Worlington
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Turnberry
Any serious issues? Now, what are the courses in GB&I Golf Magazine ranked as top 100?
Ciao
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Brian,
I'm with you on Turnberry. Very scenic and a very good course, but not quite top 100 world IMO...
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Turnberry
Any serious issues?
Ciao
I'd have Turnberry off that list personally. I'm sure others will disagree.
I would too, but as Doak stated, compromise is the reason lists always look a little weird to any individual. The problem is though, how many people in the world can say they intimately know the 250 contenders for best in the world? I will its an egg on that front. All panelists are flying by the seat of their pants on many of the calls they make - it has to be this way. So to a large degree lists need panelists for coverage. Sure, we can always find some guys we "trust" more than others, but does anyone completely trust anybody else more than themselves? There is simply no substitute for personal experience.
Okay - Jud speaks up - Turnberry is axed. Down to 20.
Alwoodley
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton
Lahinch
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick
Portmarnock
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Royal Worlington
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Turnberry
Ciao
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I think I just lost interest.
I was expecting a tight band of 5-8 consensus courses and instead we get a camel. I guess I just don't care after the first dozen or two on these various lists. There's something wrong with every course in the world, it's just a question of how much wrong represents the point of no concern, after which apathy sets in.
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I think I just lost interest.
I was expecting a tight band of 5-8 consensus courses and instead we get a camel. I guess I just don't care after the first dozen or two on these various lists. There's something wrong with every course in the world, it's just a question of how much wrong represents the point of no concern, after which apathy sets in.
My band was quite tight, but I had zero consensus. Not surprising really when what I seek is only loosely related to greatness. Like you, I really enjoy going back to courses once I am intrigued. Maybe thats why I have never made it Ganton.
I wouldn't say there is much wrong with the courses above - if we accept there is no such thing as a Bo Derek. As Doak says, what really matters is what floats your boat. You seem to be on a vigilant journey in search of the perfect list of courses. Why?
Ciao
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I think I just lost interest.
I was expecting a tight band of 5-8 consensus courses and instead we get a camel. I guess I just don't care after the first dozen or two on these various lists. There's something wrong with every course in the world, it's just a question of how much wrong represents the point of no concern, after which apathy sets in.
Mark...in all seriousness, there can only be a tight band of courses if people's utility regarding each aspect of a golf course (or golf courses) are similar.
Of course, no one thinks of it this way...but it is true, if we try to explain all of this using numbers and stats. Simon Holt, and many others, feel that North Berwick is Top 100, others don't. In fact, Simon says he doesn't respect the opinions of people who don't see it the same way. I think that is a good idea on his part.
Why? Because their utility functions regarding golf course architecture and not the same of Simon's and, therefore, it is unlikely they will have the same tastes regarding golf courses. Therefore, neither side will, most likely, agree on what is a good/great/fun golf course. In fact, disagreements on this fundamental of a level can lead to fairly nasty encounters unless someone has the emotional capacity to understand that these kinds of fundamentals disagreements occur all the time in life. Think politics, lifestlye, spending habits, places to go on vacation, choice of religion, etc. I believe these are all types of fundamental differences that, many times, people can not bring themselves to understand contradictory opinions because...well...they are fundamental differences.
Just sayin'.
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Furthermore, the idea of the consensus list is to blend in all the utility functions into one mass function whereby the "average" golfer is found (or in the case of raters the "average" connoisseur).
Outliers in this type of list are minimized and courses that illicit less extreme reactions seem to have good placement. These lists, lots of time, produce a selection of courses least likely to offend the average golfer, but, by definition, hidden gems and stunningly great finds have a hard time making the list (at least quickly).
However, lists developed by single individuals will develop a selection of courses that could be perfectly suited for any one golfer but could also be a disaster for others and their tastes.
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Mark what did you expect?
It’s subjective and what one person likes…etc.
Subjectivity always think of Harry Cohn who ruled Columbia Pictures for 30 years. He had a fine track record, amongst the dross was “It happened one night” and “Born Yesterday” in which Broderick Crawford parodied him.
…and the relevant story would be.
“Cohn started the conversation with: "Last night I saw the lousiest picture I've seen in years." After mentioning the title, one producer reported that he had seen it with an audience and they had loved it. He suggested that maybe Cohn would have had a different reaction if he had seen it with an audience. Cohn replied, "That doesn't make any difference. When I'm alone in a projection room, I have a foolproof device for judging whether a picture is good or bad. If my fanny squirms, it's bad. If my fanny doesn't squirm, it's good. It's as simple as that." There was a momentary silence, which was broken by Mankiewicz. "Imagine," he said to the other members of the table. "The whole world wired to Harry Cohn's ass!"”
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For reference: Planet Golf World 100, Links 100, and Unofficial GCA:
http://www.planetgolf.com/index.php?id=55
http://www.linksmagazine.com/links100
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html
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Oliver has 32 GB&I courses listed as top 100 world!
Ciao
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I was about to decry Oliver's list (Swinley above Muirfield is perverse, frankly but perhaps explicable on a "fun" basis, that explanation falls away when you see Carnoustie above Muirfield) but then forgave him everything when I saw Silloth in at 100! No-one, not even me was arguing here that Silloth should even be at the table (though I prefer it to a number of courses that have been being discussed).
However, a further review revealed that he had omitted Ganton completely but included Woodhall Spa. Taking a leaf out of Simon's book I cannot respect the opinion of anyone who thinks Woodhall Spa is a better course (in any respect) than Ganton.
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However, a further review revealed that he had omitted Ganton completely but included Woodhall Spa. Taking a leaf out of Simon's book I cannot respect the opinion of anyone who thinks Woodhall Spa is a better course (in any respect) than Ganton.
Your Christmas card list is getting smaller and smaller. Need to remove Ran and practically all the magazine rater's you know.
I did the same myself after seeing Ganton.
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Mark..You mean you dont respect me anymore..I am devastated.
My opinion is just that, but any top 20 list of the UK would have to include both Royal Birkdale and Woodhall Spa.
I love golf courses that demand driving accuracy and precise placements of shots, both of these coursesre shotmaking paradise.
Ultimately very fair and rewarding for good shots and highly penal for poor.
That is one of my assesments for a good golf course.
The bunkering on both is marvelous and whlist I would concede that Woodhalll could do with some tree clearing I still LOVE the place, the town everything about it.
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I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.
Bit like the Doak Scale eh Tom ;)
The Doak Scale is just one man's opinion. That's what gives it some weight. These rankings are consensus opinions, which quickly fall apart when you realize that there is not really that much consensus that everyone can agree on.
I can understand that a pole of one person is a purer reflection of an opinion than the consensus of the many but that's some statement Tom ???
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Michael,
It's OK, Simon doesn't respect my opinion, so I'm equally devastated!
I agree that there are similarities between Woodhall and Ganton. Tough, championship tests, requiring accurate driving and sharp iron play. Both are heavily (and expertly) bunkered with bunkers that are a real hazard. However, in my book:
Ganton has more movement in the land, natural contours play a big part in negotiating your way round whilst Woodhall is, basically, flat, Woodhall relies entirley on its bunkering for its challenge, Ganton has more strings to its bow,
Ganton has a far superior set of greens, Woodhalls are, again,mostly flat,
Ganton has two or three excellent short par 4s, at least one of them is world class (14), Woodhall has none,
Ganton is on sandy soil and drains superbly, Woodhall has a tendency to retain moisture,
Off the course (and this should not count in the consideration of the merits of the courses) Ganton remains a wonderfully welcoming place, my impression is that Woodhall has become a commercial operation and lost its sense of club.
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Perhaps too many short par fours on that back nine, but again knock it off line and see how"short" those holes are.
18 is a great finishing hole and the par threes superb, but I will concede to the number of short fours.
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Add me to the list of folks who love North Berwick. I played it once. I am not qualified to compare it to other British courses, since I have only played a few. I loved everything about it, and found the round of golf to have a unique quality. I've never played a round where the quality of my shots matched the results so precisely. I'd hit a drive that looked pretty good, but I knew I didn't quite hit it right. I would arrive at the ball and the next shot would be more difficult than it first appeared. This happened all day long, until the 18th hole, a 270 yarder back into town. There was a right to left crosswind, so I decided to play the aggressive shot, starting the ball out over the parking lot, and letting it drift back into play. I pulled it off perfectly, lots of fun, but when I arrived at the ball, I had short-sided myself and three putted for par.
I can hardly imagine a better course to play on a daily basis.
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What is story with Nine Bridges? It keeps climbing the rankings (49 to 45 world). I know it just hosted that World Club Championship tournament, so perhaps that means we'll see it on tv soon?
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What is story with Nine Bridges? It keeps climbing the rankings (49 to 45 world). I know it just hosted that World Club Championship tournament, so perhaps that means we'll see it on tv soon?
The same event has been televised from Nine Bridges previously. If I could learn to upload a DVD to youtube I would put up the 2011 matches from there.
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Mac,
Very interesting comments. Reminds me of the old statistics joke :P about the guy with his head in the oven and his feet in the freezer. On average the temperature's perfect.
But the main thought your comments spark for me is the declining relevance of consensus in an age of personalization and fragmentation. If you think for example about traditionally how books were selected by readers for purchase -- which like golf (playing a round of golf) is an experience good -- essentially it boiled down to one of three ways (leaving out the ol' "judge a book by its cover"):
1) Bestseller lists -- essentially consensus
2) Review by someone the reader trusted (critics as well as friends, relatives)
3) Reputation of or past experience reading the author (author's "brand")
These days that's antediluvian. Bestseller lists probably count for much less than they used to as far as a selection tool, and why? Because of your rationale. These lists generally are sort of a lowest-common denominator consensus and pretty much always have been.
But in the past people didn't have the ability to supercharge Source #2 in the list above. Today thanks to technologies like collaborative filtering they do. Books, movies, all sorts of experience goods rely less on consensus and more on presenting the consumer with highly rated items as rated by those with similar preferences.
That to me is what makes the three distinct but ultimately similar approaches taken by Ran Morrissett, Tom Doak, and Darius Oliver worthwhile. Each provide a written exposition on courses, so that in the cases of Doak and Oliver one can read the detail underpinning their scores. Ran's approach is different in that it lacks quantitative assessment but similar in its provision of a qualitative assessment. Essentially his approach is binary: if he likes it he writes it up. He uses omissions in a meaningful way.
Why is this approach superior? Because we can determine their preferences from their writing and thereby filter according to our preferences. Find someone who shares your preferences -- even better find a group who shares your preferences -- then leverage their experiences. It's a rudimentary way to "collaboratively filter."
Magazine lists fail on these counts. They are yesteryear's bestseller lists, a product of differing utilities mashed together into consensus. I wonder if something else will come along, and what that might be?
Interesting that Golf Digest has been proliferating lists relating to tough, fun, etc. Ham-handed and designed solely to sell magazines -- of course! -- this patronizing, "ghettoizing" may well be a harbinger. Certainly would be cool to create a "course chooser" and "course ranker" using the technologies available today.
Mark
PS Jim Colton: dagger!
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Mark...bingo!
A lot of these consensus lists are like the bestsellers lists. And I think they have their place...especially for golfers who are not totally plugged in and doing a lot of their own discovery, personal discovery on what they like and course discovery on what's available to play. And, yes, if you can find a course critic whose taste lines up with yours, you can share notes.
But what I find the most interesting and the most valid and true, if you will, are the courses that are on all the lists regardless if they are consensus lists or individual lists and regardless of the criteria (explicit or implicit) used to rate/rank/judge the courses. To me, those are the cream of the crop...they have to be.
But in the end, your own personal list of favorites is all that really matters.
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Mac,
The list is just the first part. The second part is more important: the explanation. When we go to Darius Oliver's website we see a list -- then we can read a nice writeup on each course. It's the writeups that are worthwhile, not the list.
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YES!
But here is the kicker, IMO, regarding these gems. You need more than one write up, preferably multiple ones from people with different tastes and takes. Having these types of write-ups from people with different takes should illuminate the scope of the greatness of these courses.
For example, you can take the world-renowned critics (Oliver, Morrissett, and, frankly, Doak) and you can hear what they say. Then take the observations of good/great players. Then Supers and course builders and maintainers. And 'retail golfers', like Keiser uses. This would illuminate the different aspects that make these courses great through different sets of eyes and touches on different, but important, points.
Some problems with this type of thing occur when things are held back, political answers are given, or difference of opinion arise. But it would be cool, if we could get a few serious GCAers out to play a specific set of courses and submit, in essence, a book report on what they saw. It would be really cool,if we could do this on lightening rod/controversial courses and/or brand new courses.
Anyway, perhaps I've totally sidetracked this thread. Sorry.
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As long as nobody tried to blend, average or otherwise smooth those varied opinions, right? That's how we end up with the problem you wrote in your earlier post.
Way back in the early days of this stuff you could go on Showtime's website and rate movies. The more movies you rated the better the suggestion engine. It's really hard to get this right. You have to strike the right balance. Underfit the data and the recs are too general. Overfit the data and you can get big mistakes. But it's a pretty established field. These days places like Amazon and Google crush this.
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Yes, but no.
Yes, no filtering. Honest OBSERVATIONS.
And, no. No rating or ranking. Just write ups discussing the course and what they saw and experienced.
At least that is what I was thinking would be worthwhile to read.
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To back up my earlier claim that Rye was surprisingly green in this heat wave, here are a couple of pictures from last Wednesday:
Hole 1
(http://files.mayring.de/golf/battle-of-the-irrigators/Rye1.jpg)
Hole 9
(http://files.mayring.de/golf/battle-of-the-irrigators/Rye9.jpg)
Hole 18
(http://files.mayring.de/golf/battle-of-the-irrigators/Rye18.jpg)
Compare to these pictures of Chart Hills, an American-style Steve Smyers / Nick Faldo Design nearby. They were taken on the next day.
Hole 1
(http://files.mayring.de/golf/battle-of-the-irrigators/ChartHills1.jpg)
Hole 12
(http://files.mayring.de/golf/battle-of-the-irrigators/ChartHills12.jpg)
Hole 15
(http://files.mayring.de/golf/battle-of-the-irrigators/ChartHills15.jpg)
It appears that Chart Hills waters the fairways a lot less than tees and greens, whereas Rye is more uniform in its application of water. To me Rye was still playing plenty firm and fast, definitely firmer than Chart Hills, which was doing a good job though.
Ulrich
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Ulrich:
Interesting photos. You do not see many courses in America watering the fairways as little as Chart Hills.
As for Rye, greener than I expected, but it's never easy to make judgments based on a single visit. Links courses tend to water heavily but infrequently, to promote deep roots. If you see a course a couple of days after they've dumped water on it, it will look pretty green, but not for long.
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It did the rain the day before I played Rye. But other than that it was hot and dry. The rough clearly shows that.
Ulrich
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Hopelessly conflicted but was very disappointed that Paraparaumu Beach is not on this list. Obviously it's a long way to get to NZ and we haven't had enough panelists visit of late.
It is good to see North Berwick improving. To fuel this thread, as one who is increasingly less of a hit n run golfer and who has played Deal recently, I'd suggest it belongs on this list.
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Turnberry
Any serious issues?
Ciao
I'd have Turnberry off that list personally. I'm sure others will disagree.
I would too, but as Doak stated, compromise is the reason lists always look a little weird to any individual. The problem is though, how many people in the world can say they intimately know the 250 contenders for best in the world? I will its an egg on that front. All panelists are flying by the seat of their pants on many of the calls they make - it has to be this way. So to a large degree lists need panelists for coverage. Sure, we can always find some guys we "trust" more than others, but does anyone completely trust anybody else more than themselves? There is simply no substitute for personal experience.
Okay - Jud speaks up - Turnberry is axed. Down to 20.
Alwoodley
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton
Lahinch
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick
Portmarnock
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Royal Worlington
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Turnberry
Ciao
Despite Mark's surly attitude, I think this group has been more sensible than the Golf Magazine and Oliver. One has 31 the other 32. It seems to me that any best of the world list should be about about zeroing down to what are the real prime movers. I think 20 from GB&I heads in that direction.
Ciao
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Ulrich is right, the rough doesn't suggest it's been too damp there, unless the rain is very selective where it falls! Too be fair Rye are very traditional and will soon get their watering levels correct.
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Yes the more I think about these lists the more frustrating they become. Woodhall Spa, I had such high hopes and was perhaps the most disappointed I've ever been in a golf course. Of course that's personal but there is in my opinion no way it could be in the Top 100 of UK and Ireland let alone top 50 in the world. If it's that easy all you have to do is design nearly the same hole with the almost identical tee shot on more than half the holes and you've made the list. Sure the bunkering theme of the bigger the better and "we have cool ladders" is fun as long as your not in them. I was not. Sure it's long from the very back sticks and definitely demands nearly the same precision tee shot all day but personally that just doesn't do it for me. There are just so many better courses over there and I'll stop while I'm ahead before I get to courses outside the top 20 in the US. Again just opinions and like any other idiot I've got my own.
However, if I was putting the list together (and I'm clearly not) there would be very few non-sand based courses on it which would mean all the worlds best courses would either be on links, heathland or sandbelt with a few occasional exceptions.
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Ulrich is right, the rough doesn't suggest it's been too damp there, unless the rain is very selective where it falls! Too be fair Rye are very traditional and will soon get their watering levels correct.
Mark,
it is not unusual that the cut grass would green up a couple of days after rain and the rough not however looking at the uniformity of the greenness would suggest quite a careful watering regime.
Jon
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Mac,
The list is just the first part. The second part is more important: the explanation. When we go to Darius Oliver's website we see a list -- then we can read a nice writeup on each course. It's the writeups that are worthwhile, not the list.
Mark
Agreed
Golf World in the UK used to produce a book of the top 1,000 courses in GB&I. I know that sounds like an awful lot but they split them into regions and then graded them from two stars up to 5 stars. The best bit though was that the entry for each course not only gave you contact details of the sec/pro shop and an indication on cost but also a handful of brief quotes that you might get in a comments book describing the course/club/experience and clearly from different people. That was the most useful part of the guide.
Easily the best guide book of golf in the UK that I've seen and one I still go too when thinking of p;aying a course I don't know.
Niall