Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mark_Rowlinson on July 11, 2013, 01:11:30 PM
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In his introduction to his profile of Reddish Vale Ran Morrissett said:
I was talking with Steve Lapper recently about GolfClubAtlas.com starting a ranking. Groan, groan, groan, you think as your eyes roll back in your head. Wait! Ours would be of the world’s best 6,500y and under courses. Let’s give clubs a reason NOT to expand their tee boxes backwards. Let’s herald courses that still value walking by keeping the green to tee walks tight. Though we may never compile such a ranking, it is wonderful to tip the hat to exceedingly worthy places such as Reddish Vale and Fraserburgh.
Should we try to compile a list of the top 50 qualifying courses? The list could be expanded to any number of courses you fancy. We could have separate compilations for courses under 6,250 yards, 6,000 yards and maybe even under 5,750 yards.
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Under 6500 from the tips?
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Fisher's Island is right on the cusp
6544 Yards from the back tees
Mark
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Shoreacres at 6,521 from the tips:
http://www.shoreacres1916.com/scorecard_guests.php (http://www.shoreacres1916.com/scorecard_guests.php)
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Wilshire CC - 6506
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Three suggestions right out of the box and none under 6,500 yards. ???
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UNDER 6,500, so those are just too long. Yes - tips. As an Englishman I am thinking in terms of the men's medal plate, the one from which you play all significant club competitions during the season.
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Mark
I don't know. If the course has some sort of champ tees that stretch past the 6500 mark I would disqualify it simply because it is more likely that the course is less walker friendly from those tees - which sort of defeats the purpose of encouraging clubs not to expand their tee boxes back.
Ciao
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Old Elm Club, Highland Park, IL (Colt/Ross 1913) 6465 Par 73
Spring Valley Country Club, Salem, WI (Langford/Moreaux 1927) 6,451 Par 70
Kingswood Golf Club, Wolfeboro, NH (Ross 1915) 6,366 Par 72
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Mark
I don't know. If the course has some sort of champ tees that stretch past the 6500 mark I would disqualify it simply because it is more likely that the course is less walker friendly from those tees - which sort of defeats the purpose of encouraging clubs not to expand their tee boxes back.
Ciao
Stop arguing. New Zealand.
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Eastward Ho!
St. George's
Southampton
LACC South
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Rye
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Delamere Forest
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Crystal Downs (6518) just misses as well.
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Delamere Forest
Beau Desert?
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54 yards is 3 yards per hole...that's 1/5 of a club longer per hole...I think that you toss 6600 as your arbitrary number, as it is just as arbitrary as 6500...My three categories would be 6201-6600, 5801-6200 and 5800 and below.
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54 yards is 3 yards per hole...that's 1/5 of a club longer per hole...I think that you toss 6600 as your arbitrary number, as it is just as arbitrary as 6500...My three categories would be 6201-6600, 5801-6200 and 5800 and below.
No.
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Delamere Forest
Beau Desert?
Yes.
We could be looking at an All-England final. USA needs to pick it up.
White Bear.
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My nominations:
CC of Farmington (CT)
Copake CC
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Myopia
Nope. 6539
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Maidstone
Swinley Forest
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just make it 6800 and see how many truly great courses there are and how much of the modern stuff is excluded... would look a lot like Golfweek's classic list.
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UNDER 6,500, so those are just too long. Yes - tips. As an Englishman I am thinking in terms of the men's medal plate, the one from which you play all significant club competitions during the season.
Based on that, Hanse's French Creek is 6307. Tips are > 6700, but that's not where the men's medal plates are located.
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There are a bunch of very walkable golf courses over 6500 yards. Bump it up a few hundred yards and the list would be quite a bit more interesting.
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I started a thread on this subject two years ago, which received 3 pages of responses:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50124.0.html
Old Elm is a great choice. As is White Bear YC.
My home course is sub-6400 yards from the tips. It also had an over 80 scoring average in the State Mid-Am last fall. Courses don't have to be long to be interesting and challenging!
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Monterey Peninsula comes through again. Old Del Monte G.C.
Over 100 years old and stretches out to 6300 yards.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/old-del-monte-golf-course-monterey.
Bob
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Like Senor Ronaldo, I wonder what's magical about 6500 yards. Will any courses on the GD, GM or GW top 100 lists make the 6500 yard cut?
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Tough challenge:
- Southampton GC (Raynor) has already been mentioned. 6359 (Par 70) from the tips
- Leatherstocking in Cooperstown (Emmet) is 6401 from the tips (Par 72)
Pasatiempo just misses out at 6521 (Par 70)
In Canada, Victoria GC would be ideal and other notable sub-6500 yarders include Lakeview, Burlington GCC, Oshawa GCC and Rosedale.
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Bald Peak Colony Club (NH, Ross): par 72, 6264 yards.
Hanover CC (NH): par 71, 6472 yards.
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St Georges 6218
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Delamere Forest
Beau Desert?
Yes.
We could be looking at an All-England final. USA needs to pick it up.
White Bear.
Beau Desert - new tees 6458
Kington 5961 all the way back
Cavendish 5721 all the way back
Addington 6284
Brora 6156
Camberley Heath 6426
Portrush Valley 6304
Huntercombe 6301
Knole Park 6459
Stoneham 6392
Prestbury 6382
Edgbaston 6106
Sacred 9 3123
Maybe more to follow.
Ciao
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Painswick 4818. ;D ;D
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Tough challenge:
- Southampton GC (Raynor) has already been mentioned. 6359 (Par 70) from the tips
- Leatherstocking in Cooperstown (Emmet) is 6401 from the tips (Par 72)
Pasatiempo just misses out at 6521 (Par 70)
In Canada, Victoria GC would be ideal and other notable sub-6500 yarders include Lakeview, Burlington GCC, Oshawa GCC and Rosedale.
Played Victoria two weeks ago today. It's magic. Pebble Beach with the waterfront holes right on the water.
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I think Ran's got it exactly right. 6500 is the perfect cutoff. It's plenty of golf for 85-90% of the golfing population. Obviously if we stretched it out we'd be able to include a lot of really good courses that would make us all a bit more comfortable. The point isn't to have a comfortable list of courses we already know about. It's to highlight courses that haven't put in new back tees and are still very fun and playable for that 85-90%, and as a result might cost a bit less in cash, water, effort and time to play.
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My experience is very limited.
My first choice would be Boat Of Garten in the Scottish Highlands, at 5876 yards.
http://www.boatgolf.com/course/scorecard
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Hello Scotland: N Berwick. 6464.
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Hello Scotland: N Berwick. 6464.
Medal tees?
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Dang. Well, that's what they have on the card but there's no way they played an Open qualifier at that distance.
DQ.
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Aiken Golf Club
5,734
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Hotchkiss Golf Club- Seth Raynor 1911: 6072 (9x2)
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I don't have my scorecard handy, but pretty sure Rockaway Hunting is sub-6,500. Given the quality of the recent Hanse/Wagner renovation, it's gotta be a contender here.
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This is a fascinating challenge, but I think if we strictly apply the under 6500 yard rule from the back tees we are going to end up with a motley quirk fest and not a list of substantial quality or great interest. I would alter the rules as follows:
"All courses under 6500 yards if played from the teeing ground nearest to the previous green."
This, of course, is how golf courses were originally designed, and how they were meant to be played. If you alter the rule to the above, all sorts of delightful choices become available, including places like Merion, Cypress Point, Dornoch, North Berwick, and NGLA.
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I would alter the rules as follows:
"All courses under 6500 yards if played from the teeing ground nearest to the previous green."
No.
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Courtesy of the CG:
Ashburn (Old)- Stanley Thompson 5158 Par 70
Whitinsville GC- Ross 6427 Par 70 (9*2)
Royal West Norfolk- Ingleby 6457 Par 71
Wawashkomo Golf Club- Smith 5949 Par 72 (9*2)
Brancepeth Castle Golf- Colt 6400 Par 70
Piltdown GC- 6076 Par 68
Strathpeffer Spa- Tom Morris 5001 Par 70
Hindhead Golf Club- JH Taylor 6356 Par 70
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Clearwater CC (Herbert Strong)--6,231 yards, par 72
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Me thinks Ran et al have been hoisted on their own petards. Spend years promoting the classic golden age courses, and years more celebrating the renaissance, and extolling fast and firm and options and strategies and the ODGs and the modern masters, and throughout all those years debating (well, proscribing actually) what makes for 'great courses' and 'great architecture' -- and then at the end of all this, realize that 6500 yards is all anyone needs only to find that very few of the courses that meet THAT standard/criteria also meet the standards/criteria of greatness that they've spent 20 decades crafting and creating.
Luckily, Sean Arble once again comes to the rescue with a substantial list of courses that DO meet the first standard/criteria; and, because it is Sean -- with his fondness for the modest and unpretentious and so-called 'tier two' courses -- implicitly suggests that this latter standard/criteria that many take as gospel may be only ONE notion of what defines great courses and great architecture.
Perhaps it's time for a new gospel.
There, I said it.
Maybe Mark B will quote this and say "No".
Peter
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Me thinks Ran et al have been hoisted on their own petards. Spend years promoting the classic golden age courses, and years more celebrating the renaissance, and extolling fast and firm and options and strategies and the ODGs and the modern masters, and throughout all those years debating (well, proscribing actually) what makes for 'great courses' and 'great architecture' -- and then at the end of all this, realize that 6500 yards is all anyone needs only to find that very few of the courses that meet THAT standard/criteria also meet the standards/criteria of greatness that they've spent 20 decades crafting and creating.
Luckily, Sean Arble once again comes to the rescue with a substantial list of courses that DO meet the first standard/criteria; and, because it is Sean -- with his fondness for the modest and unpretentious and so-called 'tier two' courses -- implicitly suggests that this latter standard/criteria that many take as gospel may be only ONE notion of what defines great courses and great architecture.
There, I said it.
Maybe Mark B will quote this and say "No".
Peter
Yes!
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I don't want to make this about me, Mark, but do you mean "Yes, you've predicted correctly, and I'm going to say 'no'" or do you mean "Yes indeed -- you described the situation perfectly and I agree completely"?
Please don't answer if your answer will make me blush....
Peter
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Southerndown 6428, but I wonder if they have a separate championship card?
Carnoustie Burnside is probably less than 6500
Reddish Vale 6088
Hockley 6420
Blackwell 6283
Ciao
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Swinley Forest, Healesville, and New Zealand are the best I have seen.
St Enodoc and Portsea just fail to qualify.
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I think Worpy comes in at just under 6500?
Ciao
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Peter,
More the "good" yes. It's a great observation, but if this indeed is where Ran is headed remember, nobody ever asks why St Paul didn't convert sooner.
And in my own defense, meager though it be, my last substantial posts have praised a course in the rattiest possible condition.
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Crail Balcomie
5,861
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Me thinks Ran et al have been hoisted on their own petards. Spend years promoting the classic golden age courses, and years more celebrating the renaissance, and extolling fast and firm and options and strategies and the ODGs and the modern masters, and throughout all those years debating (well, proscribing actually) what makes for 'great courses' and 'great architecture' -- and then at the end of all this, realize that 6500 yards is all anyone needs only to find that very few of the courses that meet THAT standard/criteria also meet the standards/criteria of greatness that they've spent 20 decades crafting and creating.
No. Many or most of the great courses did qualify before they bastardized themselves, and many are worse for it. They are all the exceptions that prove the rule.
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6500 is a perfect number. Cypress Point, Merion and Crystal Downs were all under that number 25 years ago, before they succumbed to peer pressure. St. Enodoc was well under the number, until Peter McEvoy lengthened the 16th. Narin & Portnoo is another cool course bastardized in the name of a bigger number on the scorecard. Has Maidstone succumbed? It used to the the shortest course in the top 100 list, at 6325 or so.
Rye and Swinley Forest are the first two that came to mind for me. I hope White Bear Yacht Club is still under the cutoff. What about West Sussex?
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Whitinsville is under the mark by 73 yards (9x2, thanks Jud).
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Mark - pithy, and true! I hope I didn't come off too critical or know-it-all-ish; I wanted to get to my main point -- i.e. Sean's version of 'greatness', which I think well worth considering -- and so I just started typing and my fingers ran away with me and that's what came out.
David - I'd agree I think, but I'd guess that the kind of courses we're talking about had already broken the 6,500 yard mark (via lengthening) by the time gca.com came around; it's not a recent phenomenon, though it seems to have picked up momentum in the last decade or so. (I don't remember any of Ran's profiles mentioning/praising the 'pre-6,500' version of any of the great and/or golden age courses.)
Peter
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This is awesome. Great idea. I had an excellent player (competed in 9 events on the PGA Tour) ask me today about "the golf ball" and my thoughts on rolling it back. My response was that shortening courses would force the design and setup to get creative in how to defend against scoring. (Think US Open at Shinnecock final day when it was so hard and windy.)
My nomination of Eau Claire G & CC just misses the 6,500 threshold as well.
For the sub-6 division I offer up Mount Dora GC. It is just over 5,700 as memory serves. Defends itself very well.
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Wouldn't just about every course in the UK qualify since visitors can only play the yellow tees? ;)
second question (actual serious question)
In the monthly medal at UK clubs, where handicaps are established,what tees do members play in these stroke play competitions?
and is there a max one can make on a hole?
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West Sussex is 6,355 yards from the "Tiger" tees.
I would guess it's in the top ten of the final list.
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A few courses from around the area I used to live which are probably in the top 100 for Scotland;
North Berwick is 6464 yards from the white tee's according to the scorecard (http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/c_scorecard.aspx) on their website.
Lundin - 6371 yards (from tips)
Kilspindie - 5502
Dunbar - 6404 ( Scorecard (http://www.mygolfexperience.com/ViewGolfCourse.asp?clubID=981&courseID=377) )
Gullane 2 - 6385
Gullane 3 - 5259
Longniddry - 6260
I appreciate it would be pushing it to have most of them in a world top 100 even with the 6500 criteria, but I have put them up in case the strict criteria of <= 6500 from the tips does not produce all that many choices.
Imagine a world where courses shorten the medal tees to sneak into the Golf Club atlas 6500 top 100? 8)
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Morfontaine - 6446
Misquamicut - 6214
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I'd like to see some top ten lists of these courses, and also see where they stand in the overall rankings.
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Mark - pithy, and true! I hope I didn't come off too critical or know-it-all-ish; I wanted to get to my main point -- i.e. Sean's version of 'greatness', which I think well worth considering -- and so I just started typing and my fingers ran away with me and that's what came out.
David - I'd agree I think, but I'd guess that the kind of courses we're talking about had already broken the 6,500 yard mark (via lengthening) by the time gca.com came around; it's not a recent phenomenon, though it seems to have picked up momentum in the last decade or so. (I don't remember any of Ran's profiles mentioning/praising the 'pre-6,500' version of any of the great and/or golden age courses.)
Peter
The only course I listed which I consider great is the Sacred 9. All the others are good to very good. I am not sure how many are worth including in any sort of ranking. Usually, I am all for ranking less to get a better list. I wonder if we can come up with 25 sub 6500 yard courses that are either great or unquestionably worth playing.
Ciao
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LuLu (par 71/6433 yards).
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6500 is a perfect number. Cypress Point, Merion and Crystal Downs were all under that number 25 years ago, before they succumbed to peer pressure. St. Enodoc was well under the number, until Peter McEvoy lengthened the 16th. Narin & Portnoo is another cool course bastardized in the name of a bigger number on the scorecard. Has Maidstone succumbed? It used to the the shortest course in the top 100 list, at 6325 or so.
Rye and Swinley Forest are the first two that came to mind for me. I hope White Bear Yacht Club is still under the cutoff. What about West Sussex?
Golf courses have gotten longer throughout history.
As any avid GCA participant knows, I certainly have railed against recent hot golf ball and club innovations and think a rollback would serve the game well.
That said, to use the word "bastardize" or any other negative word against lengthening because it puts a club over an arbitrary number we have chosen seems a bit silly.
If we choose 5800 we can bitch about the bastardization in 1904 of some other venue.
If a good player routinely hits driver 9 iron on a Maidstone par 5, should the rest of the shorter player tees suffer whatever field inflencing defence someone dreams up (high rough, whatever) when a cleverly placed back tee can restore the intent of the hole for the better player, without unduly slowng play and punishing the rest while the USGA conducts a study to see whether the ball goes farther "while we're young"?
The word bastardization is far more appropriate for what was done to Shinnecock in 2004 for the US Open.
A classic case of ignoring the problem and creating other ones.
Back to the original premise?
Aiken Golf Club
Kebo Valley
Palmetto
Southampton
St Georges
Apawamis
Cape Arundel
Palmetto is an example of a great course well under 6500 yards. The fact that there are a few way back tees in place that are never open shouldn't disqualify it as I don't think I've ever seen the back tees exceed 6400.
Meanwhile we all know 6500 yards and less is an ideal number for the majority of golfers, but because it's ideal for us, should mean good players shouldn't be allowed to play relevant length courses, and it does take a very innovative course or weather to be relevant under 6500.
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Having seen it yesterday, Tandridge is very good and under 6400.
Liphook - 6295
Cavendish - 5721
You could fill a pretty good list just with Scottish courses. Kilmacolm at 5961 is an absolute peach, which virtually nobody knows about.
This could be quite a fun little project Mark. Let me know if you need any help.
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Is Kilmacolm that good, Robin? I'm scheduled to play a 36-holer there in a couple of weeks and am thinking of giving my place away due to other commitments. You are dead right about Scotland. There is a huge number of very good <6500 yeard courses up here, but they are so near the trophy venues, very few vistors play them. Ones that I don't recall yet seeing on this list include:
Elie
Gullane #2
Forfar
Kilspindie
Cardross
Powfoot
Stirling
Queens (Gleneagles)
Murrayfield
Alyth
Banhory
Edzell
etc. etc. etc.
One's elsewhere that I remember:
Swinley Forest
Wood's Hole
Pacific Grove
Jeff W.
Per your earlier post, here in the UK if playing in a medal you must hole out on every hole to be elgible for a prize, and the vast majority oif players do, even if they have no sniff of a prize. That being said, for handicap puposes a system a system is in plce similar to (and acutally improving on) the ESC system adopted by the USGA, so even though you have to put your 9s and 13s and 17s s on your card, they get reduced to bogeys double or triples (depending on handicap).
Rich
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Tom,
Maidstone Blue comes in at 6423
Lyne
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Rich:
It's been a good 20 years since I last played it, but it's known locally as the 'miniature Gleneagles' and from memory that seems to be a fair enough comparison. It's the same post glacial terrain, albeit south of the Clyde. I think you'd really enjoy it if you go.
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More from Scotland:
East Renfrewshire
Ranfurly Castle
Kirriemuir
Aberfoyle
Milngavie
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Arrowtown deserves to be somewhere on the list. Just over 6000 yards, I think.
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6500 is a perfect number. Cypress Point, Merion and Crystal Downs were all under that number 25 years ago, before they succumbed to peer pressure. St. Enodoc was well under the number, until Peter McEvoy lengthened the 16th. Narin & Portnoo is another cool course bastardized in the name of a bigger number on the scorecard. Has Maidstone succumbed? It used to the the shortest course in the top 100 list, at 6325 or so.
Rye and Swinley Forest are the first two that came to mind for me. I hope White Bear Yacht Club is still under the cutoff. What about West Sussex?
Golf courses have gotten longer throughout history.
As any avid GCA participant knows, I certainly have railed against recent hot golf ball and club innovations and think a rollback would serve the game well.
That said, to use the word "bastardize" or any other negative word against lengthening because it puts a club over an arbitrary number we have chosen seems a bit silly.
If we choose 5800 we can bitch about the bastardization in 1904 of some other venue.
If a good player routinely hits driver 9 iron on a Maidstone par 5, should the rest of the shorter player tees suffer whatever field inflencing defence someone dreams up (high rough, whatever) when a cleverly placed back tee can restore the intent of the hole for the better player, without unduly slowng play and punishing the rest while the USGA conducts a study to see whether the ball goes farther "while we're young"?
The word bastardization is far more appropriate for what was done to Shinnecock in 2004 for the US Open.
A classic case of ignoring the problem and creating other ones.
Jeff:
In general, I agree with your point above.
However, I only used the word "bastardized" to describe what happened at Portnoo, where they added several hundred yards (and changed par from 69 to 73!) in an attempt to put the course on the radar for Americans, and totally changed the character of the course.
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Has Boat of Garten been mentioned?
Best from Ireland is probably Strandhill (6,400)... Ballybee would have been incredibly close up until a couple of years ago (sat at just over 6,500 yards for years)... Narin & Portnoo would have also until 5 years ago... North West is still there (6,300)... Laytown & Bettystown too (6,400)
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Here are two more wee gems that immediately come to mind from the UK -
Tadmarton Heath, near Banbury - 5,936 yds, par 69 from the men's medal/white tees - http://www.tadmartongolf.com/pages.php/page/6b482a36-446e-11e2-8f46-bc305bd9eec9/view_section.html
Green course at Frilford Heath, near Oxford - 6,015 yds, par 69 from the men's medal/white tees - http://www.frilfordheath.co.uk/courses/green_course/
Nice thread. More possibly later if others don't mention them beforehand.
All the best.
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Elie
Nearly three pages before anyone mentions Elie. Standards are slipping.
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Someone mentioned Hotchkiss (9x2) earlier. I love that track, but should we start considering great nine hole tracks, about which dozens of threads exist? I don't know the answer but might argue yes.
As a sidebar, this excellent thread has resurrected my deep interest in what GCA members think, after a twelve month self imposed exile due to the sometimes overwhelmingly petty and often mean nature of comments deposited in otherwise interesting threads. Bravo.
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Great thread
Rich,
Thanks for the info-would LOVE to have a day like that at our club, but I'm not sure there's enough daylight ;D ;D
Tom,
Agreed on N&P, loved the earlier version, but I still like the new version, and they may have achieved their objective as it seems to get far more visitor play now. (if indeed that was their objective)
NOBODY had heard of it when I was first there and it's relatively well known now, though that is also due to Finnegan and you.
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Berkshire Blue - 6398
Berkshire Red - 6452
Coombe Hill - 6401
Mucci's favorite... Seaview Bay - 6247
... Mid Pines 6528
Tobacco Road 6552
Royal Ashdown Forest 6518
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Take a 7,000 yard course of Par 72. Now remove a 400 yard Par 4 from each side and replace it with a 150 yard Par 3. That's 500 yards off right there, so we're at Par 70.
Challenge is still pretty much the same, the fun factor goes up, rounds are a little quicker, and maintenance costs drop.
I suspect the reason we are finding so many Scottish candidates for this list is similarly tied to par.
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This thread has devolved into people blurting out the first 6500 yard golf course that they can think of...
So who wants to take a crack at ranking the best 20 in the US and the best 20 in Europe?
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Pat:
I think Machrihanish at 6462 yds is very good (and that's with a bunch of new tees; the everyday yellow tees still play at under 6,000 -- 5971).
Fraserburgh, subject of a recent profile by Ran, is 6308 from the tips and regular yellow-tee play is right around 6,000 yds. Maybe not quite as good as Machrihanish, but I'd put both on a top-20 list in Scotland for sub-6,500 yds courses. Boat of Garten at 5876 yds is a terrific challenge; if you re-located that course to Minnesota or Wisconsin, people would rave about it over here. A probable top-20 in Scotland as well for the sub-6500 yd category.
Here in Wisconsin, I think Maple Bluff (6,400 tips), Blackhawk (6175 tips), and Spring Valley (6451 tips) are all really solid courses. And the criminally unknown 9-hole Country Club Estates in Walworth County near Lake Geneva, played twice, is a lot of fun at 6,022 yards.
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Here's all the nominations thus far. Perhaps if we set a cutoff date people can submit ballots and I can compile them. Couple of questions. Are we including 9-holers? (even if they have 2 sets of tees)? Is North Berwick in or out? I will add or subtract any additions or corrections as they come.
Aberfoyle
Addington
Aiken GC
Aiken Golf Club
Alyth
Apawamis
Arrowtown
Ashburn (Old)
Bald Peak Colony
Banhory
Beau Desert
Berkshire Blue
Birkshire Red
Blackhawk
Blackwell
Boat of Garten
Brancepeth Castle
Brora
Burlington GCC
Camberly Heath
Cape Arundel
Cardross
Carnoustie Burnside
Cavendish
CC Farmington
Clearwater CC
Coombe Hill
Copake
Country Club Estates
Crail Balcomie
Dealmere Forest
Dunbar
East Renfrewshire
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Edzell
Elie
Forfar
Fraserburgh
Friford Heath
Gleneagles (Queens)
Gullane 2
Gullane 3
Hanover CC
Healesville
Hindhead GC
Hockley
Hotchkiss GC
Huntercombe
Kebo Valley
Kilspindie
Kingswood
Kington
Kirrienuir
Knole Park
LACC South
Lakeview
Laytown & Bettystown
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Longniddry
Lulu CC
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
Maple Bluffs
Milngavie
Misquimicut
Monterey Peninsula
Morfontaine
Mount Dora GC
Murrayfield
New Zealand
North Berwick
North West
Old Del Monte GC
Old Elm
Pacific Grove
Painswick
Piltdown
Portrush Valley
Powfoot
Prestbury
Ranfurly Castle
Reddish Vale
Rosedale
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington
Rye
Seaview Bay
Southampton
Southerndown
Spring Valley
St. George's
Stirling
Stoneham
Stranhill
Strathpeffer Spa
Swinley Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Vicotria GC
Wawashkomo GC
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Whitinsville GC
Wood's Hole
Worplesdon
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I've always enjoyed Ravisloe Country Club at 6,321.
I will say I feel like it played longer at par 70 than the 6,800 par 72 course I normally play. It's interesting how many great courses are excluded between 6,500 - 6,700 yards.
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A neat little Travis course, the Stamford GC in Stamford, NY, is safely under the mark by 215 yards.
Flynn's Monroe CC in Monroe, NY is a 9 hole gem that checks in with 1,078 yards to spare, about the same as Ross' 18 hole Winchendon School golf course.
Raynor's Waunumetonomy CC in RI could add 190 yards to their course and still make it in under 6,500.
Stowe Country Club in Stowe, Vt. is another that tips out a few hundred yards shy of the threshold.
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Let's roll out the Rosses:
Highlands
Metacomet
Roaring Gap
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Are we including 9-holers? (even if they have 2 sets of tees)?
I would say no.
You might as well add my home course, Town & Country Club in St. Paul to the list. (6380 yards). It's better than at least a few listed.
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A post script to Old Del Monte.
Even at 6300 yards, Old Del Monte still hosts an annual Champions Tour event, The First Tee Open, and the annual Calloway Invitational. In fact, two years ago it proved to be the toughest up and down from green side bunkers of any of the Champions Tour venues.
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Just for a bit of fun I thought I'd start at the top of the Scottish mainland and work my way down the East coast to St Andrews, listing the 18-hole courses nearish the coast, excluding major/famous names and not including any inland courses or 9-holers.
I'd never have guessed there'd be this many. I could well be wrong, but I don't believe any of these are over 6,500 yds even from the back tees - I could be wrong though. I'm sure someone will say if I am! Indeed, some are well under 6,500, some under 6,000, some even under 5,000. Some crackers and gems. Some eccentric, idiosyncratic or down right weird, and some, well perhaps a few steps lower down the golfing desirability ladder.
Raey
Wick
Brora
Golspie
Tain
Invergordon
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Nairn Dunbar
Moray Old
Moray New
Hopeman
Gramouth & Kingston
Speybay
Buckpool
Strathlene
Cullen
Duff House Royal
Royal Tarlair
Fraserburgh
Inverallochy
Peterhead
Newburgh
Murcar
Kings Links
Balnagask
Stonehaven
Montrose
Arbroath
Burnside
Buddon
Panmure
Monifeith
Scotscraig
Himalayas at StA
that'll do
34 courses in about 350 miles. Just a few then.
ATB
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Up in Cape Cod, MA you can add:
Wianno
Hyannisport
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Here's all the nominations thus far. Perhaps if we set a cutoff date people can submit ballots and I can compile them. Couple of questions. Are we including 9-holers? (even if they have 2 sets of tees)? Is North Berwick in or out? I will add or subtract any additions or corrections as they come.
Aberfoyle
Addington
Aiken GC
Aiken Golf Club
Alyth
Apawamis
Arrowtown
Ashburn (Old)
Bald Peak Colony
Banhory
Beau Desert
Berkshire Blue
Birkshire Red
Blackhawk
Blackwell
Boat of Garten
Brancepeth Castle
Brora
Burlington GCC
Camberly Heath
Cape Arundel
Cardross
Carnoustie Burnside
Cavendish
CC Farmington
Clearwater CC
Coombe Hill
Copake
Country Club Estates
Crail Balcomie
Dealmere Forest
Dunbar
East Renfrewshire
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Edzell
Elie
Forfar
Fraserburgh
Friford Heath
Gleneagles (Queens)
Gullane 2
Gullane 3
Hanover CC
Healesville
Hindhead GC
Hockley
Hotchkiss GC
Huntercombe
Kebo Valley
Kilspindie
Kingswood
Kington
Kirrienuir
Knole Park
LACC South
Lakeview
Laytown & Bettystown
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Longniddry
Lulu CC
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
Maple Bluffs
Milngavie
Misquimicut
Monterey Peninsula
Morfontaine
Mount Dora GC
Murrayfield
New Zealand
North Berwick
North West
Old Del Monte GC
Old Elm
Pacific Grove
Painswick
Piltdown
Portrush Valley
Powfoot
Prestbury
Ranfurly Castle
Reddish Vale
Rosedale
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington
Rye
Seaview Bay
Southampton
Southerndown
Spring Valley
St. George's
Stirling
Stoneham
Stranhill
Strathpeffer Spa
Swinley Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Vicotria GC
Wawashkomo GC
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Whitinsville GC
Wood's Hole
Worplesdon
Good shot at 30ish to 50
Addington
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Edgaston
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Liphook
New Zealand
Prestbury
Southerndown
Stoneham
Worplesdon
Shoe in 30ish to 50
Kington
Beau Desert
No brainer top 25
North Berwick I seriously doubt the back tees are less than 6500
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington
Rye
Swinley Forest
Ciao
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Siwanoy CC - Bronxville, NY.
6480 - Blues (Never actually plays that distance all in one round...6425 is more frequent number)
6176 - White (Usually teed as 6250ish)
For American courses, under the "terms" of the challenge, Siwanoy MUST be a high-placer, along with:
Maidstone
Apawamis
CC. of Fairfield
All four of these are fun in their quirks, picturesque in their settings, filled with antique, visual character, just all about 100 years old and challenging as hell in windy and/or exceptionally dry conditions. You also have a range of venerated ODGs as their creator.
cheers
vk
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FWIW, If I had to rate the courses I have played out of ten I would go with
Swinley Forest - 9
Healesville 8
Merion West 7
Berkshire Red 7
New Zealand 6
Berkshire Blue 5
Arrowtown 5
Pacific Grove 3
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Wentworth East at 6201. In sharp contrast to its butchered amazonian sister.
Broadstone 6393 is good one. As is Tom Simpson's Golf de Fagnes (Spa) which just scrapes in (6482).
Seve's home course at Pedrena was famous for being short and with tricky greens. I'm sure it's well below 6500.
My old favourite hidden gem, Harborne is well under at 6210. Parkstone another Bournemouth club that's short and good enough.
I'm looking through my favourite UK Top 50 from the old AA guidebook published in 1977 and 16 are less than 6500 with none over 7000.
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Good call on Wentworth East. We played there years ago and I was pissed that we couldn't get on the West. Now I think I might've gotten the better end of the deal.
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Does Merion West fit the bill?
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Palos Verdes Golf Club weighs in at 6313 yards. A Thomas & Bell gem from the 1920s.
Gleneagles in San Francisco. A 9-holer with different sets of tees on many holes and lots of wind. Always found it interesting back in the late 1980s when I played there.
Lincoln Park is under 6000 yards.
A few country clubs in the St. Louis area: Westborough and Algonquin. Westborough was the home of accomplished amateur golfer Jim Holtgrieve. Algonquin was the home of former Walker Cup player Jim Jackson. The courses are located a few blocks from each other.
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Paraparaumu Beach medal tees, Par 71 6469 yards
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Updated list. 9-holers eliminated, frankly that's a whole other thread. Also North Berwick out unless we hear definitively that it should be in.
Aberfoyle
Addington
Aiken GC
Algonquin
Alyth
Apawamis
Arbroath
Arrowtown
Ashburn (Old)
Bald Peak Colony
Balnagask
Banhory
Beau Desert
Berkshire Blue
Birkshire Red
Blackhawk
Blackwell
Boat of Garten
Brancepeth Castle
Broadstone
Brora
Buckpool
Buddon
Burlington GCC
Burnside
Camberly Heath
Cape Arundel
Cardross
Carnoustie Burnside
Cavendish
CC Fairfield
CC Farmington
Clearwater CC
Coombe Hill
Copake
Crail Balcomie
Cullen
Dealmere Forest
Duff House Royal
Dunbar
East Renfrewshire
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Edzell
Elie
Forfar
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Fraserburgh
Friford Heath
Gleneagles (Queens)
Golspie
Gramouth & Kingston
Gullane 2
Gullane 3
Hanover CC
Harborne
Healesville
Highlands
Hindhead GC
Hockley
Hopeman
Huntercombe
Hyannisport
Inverallochy
Invergordon
Kebo Valley
Kilspindie
Kings Links
Kingswood
Kington
Kirrienuir
Knole Park
LACC South
Lakeview
Laytown & Bettystown
Leatherstockings
Lincoln Park
Liphook
Longniddry
Lulu CC
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
Maple Bluffs
Merion West
Metacomet
Milngavie
Misquimicut
Monifeith
Monroe CC
Monterey Peninsula
Montrose
Moray New
Moray Old
Morfontaine
Mount Dora GC
Murcar
Murrayfield
Nairn Dunbar
New Zealand
Newburgh
North West
Old Del Monte GC
Old Elm
Pacific Grove
Painswick
Palos Verdes
Panmure
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
Pedrena
Peterhead
Piltdown
Portrush Valley
Powfoot
Prestbury
Raey
Ranfurly Castle
Ravisloe CC
Reddish Vale
Roring Gap
Rosedale
Royal Tarlair
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Scotscraig
Seaview Bay
Siwanoy CC
Southampton
Southerndown
Speybay
Spring Valley
St. George's
Stamford GC
Stirling
Stoneham
Stonehaven
Stowe CC
Stranhill
Strathlene
Strathpeffer Spa
Swinley Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Tain
Town & Country Club
Vicotria GC
Waunumetonomy
Wentworth East
West Sussex
Westborough
White Bear YC
Wianno
Wick
Wood's Hole
Worplesdon
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South Bend Country Club (IN), 6,494 yards. Barely makes the cut, but a wonderful golf course. Would be much better known if it were in a major city.
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How about
Longshore GC, Westport, CT
Pinehurst #1
Haven't played either. The first is Orin Smith that I believe was recently renovated and looked pretty intriguing when I drove by and what would Pinehurst #1 be like if they renovated it?
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Claremont Country Club must make top 25?
I played there yesterday, lots of fun with more width than you would expect for such a small property,plenty of quirk and interesting greens. Back to back par 3s for #s 2 & 3: 3 wood for #2, 9 iron for #3. I understand it is not a "pure" Mackenize, but it has some very solid bones.
George
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If they truly renovated Pinehurst #1 and #3 they would be great additions to this list. Very interesting hazards have been lost at both. Also, like #2 the texture of those courses has been lost because they are wall to wall grass. If these courses were truly renovated, bringing back the hazards, the strategy, and the texture, then they would be good additions to the list.
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Why does a course's back tee length matter so? If people would simply play the tees that suit them, then anything 'behind' them wouldn't matter. I used to play tips, but now find that my age is better suited to the next shorter tees. My rule for the correct tees, for myself and anyone else...what tees will provide the greatest opportunity to use all or most of the clubs in your bag. That rule would have me tipping most any course at 6800 or less, but maybe using the middle tees at some of the newer, lengthier courses. And total distance still is not the greatest criteria, as conditions might play short (wet/cold/hilly) or fast (dry/altitude).
As evidence: Merion. New tees for the Open will have NO effect on members who will still play their usual tees. Moreover, a vital element of the game's growth is young/new player development and they want to hit the bombs, so let them stretch it out and enjoy. What is far more damning to the 'average' player are designs or renos that create forced carries, brutal rough and deepening bunkers.
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John,
Which is a better walk, faster, cheaper, better for the environment and more likely to be designed with the specific yardage in mind: playing the 6200 yard tees on a 7200 yard course, if they're even available, or playing the tips on a 6200 yard course?
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John,
Which is a better walk, faster, cheaper, better for the environment and more likely to be designed with the specific yardage in mind: playing the 6200 yard tees on a 7200 yard course, if they're even available, or playing the tips on a 6200 yard course?
Jud,
First of all, were it up to me, we'd still be playing hickories and guttys. Then 6500 would be monstrous. But the genie is out and for me to hit all my clubs, 6200 wont do it. FOR THE RECORD- my woods and irons are 20 years old, so no oversized driver or hybrids in my bag. I agree that the extra space required is daunting financially and maintenance-wise. But, if an existing course is lengthened, then the walk to the current tees should not be altered, just the walks to the new, longer tees. And I have always said that the tee areas should be left more natural, especially the back two tees. Just a pad to launch and Ma Nature surrounding it. That keeps maintenance, water and costs down and looks really cool!
On new designs, the middle tees (which get the predominant use) should be located near the previous green and subsequent longer tees positioned behind whenever possible.
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John,
If 6500 doesn't cut it for you than you needn't concern yourself with this list. It does cut it for the vast majority of players, myself included, and we are a grossly underserved constituency.
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John,
If 6500 doesn't cut it for you than you needn't concern yourself with this list. It does cut it for the vast majority of players, myself included, and we are a grossly underserved constituency.
Jud,
I dont understand your 'grossly underserved' comment. Do you mean courses are too long? Too difficult? If it's too difficult, i agree that many courses have stripped away the element of fun or enjoyment at the sake of challenging the better player. If it's too long, then what about the next set of tees?
My point is that a course shouldn't be 'criticized' for total length as long as it accommodates differing players' tees and, almost as importantly, varying skill levels (lack of forced carries and forced walks). Hypothetically, if Shoreacres (at about 6350 tipped?) or any course on the list were to add new back tees and become 7000 yards long, how would that affect the vast majority? The same tees that had been used are still there. Now, however, the course has flexibility for other players.
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Oh, now I get it. Perhaps if Rye would tack on say 1500 yards, they could get in the Open rota, move up the rankings and no harm no foul! Silly me, now we can simply stop wasting time with this list and just wait till all these tracks add the proper back markers! Fyi- Shoreacres has already pushed the limit at 6521 and there's no more real estate to stretch it further. To even suggest that a perfectly charming place like Shoreacres needs another 500 yards with a straight face makes one shudder. Perhaps underserved is the wrong term. It should be overserved...
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Oh, now I get it. Perhaps if Rye would tack on say 1500 yards, they could get in the Open rota, move up the rankings and no harm no foul! Silly me, now we can simply stop wasting time with this list and just wait till all these tracks add the proper back markers! Fyi- Shoreacres has already pushed the limit at 6521 and there's no more real estate to stretch it further. To even suggest that a perfectly charming place like Shoreacres needs another 500 yards with a straight face makes one shudder.
Jud,
Lengthening a course does not make it less charming or less playable. I played Shoreacres and enjoyed it very much. But it was too short for ME. My drives are about 270 yards, with the old technology, and my 5 iron is about 180. Perhaps the implications of longer tees for many people is that they have to move back. Nothing could be further from the truth. But, I enjoy hitting long irons on 4 pars after a good drive and wailing on long 3 pars with woods. Does that make me less charming than the player who hits a 7 iron 130 yards? Again, the extended tees make the course relevant for the longer player and the middle tees are suitable for the average player. What is wrong with that? Wouldn't the great architects want to see approaches hit into their greens with the same club today as when the course was first built?
My wife (6 hdcp) and I played the Ocean Course at Kiawah about 10 years ago. I played from 7200 yards and she played the fwd tees. We absolutely enjoyed the round and had a great match. Appropriate tees for each skill level made that possible.
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John,
I'm not trying to deny you a course to play or be confrontational, just answer a few questions: what percentage of all golfers regularly drive the ball 270? And what percentage of courses have been stretched or designed to accomodate those who do? How much time, money and water has been wasted by the sub 270 crowd in order to accomodate the big hitters?
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I think the more interesting question than "percentage of golfers" is "percentage of rounds." There are certainly plenty of short-hitters that play regularly, but better players usually have to play regularly to maintain that status. I'm not convinced that the "vast majority" of rounds are played by golfers that would be happy at 6,500 yards. I usually play around that yardage, but I have a lot of friends that are better players than I am that need more golf course than I do.
That said, not every course has to appeal to every realm of golfer. Truly, most of the best courses are not particularly playable for short-hitting high handicaps, so having some shorter and more playable courses is not a bad thing. It appears from the suggestions thus far that many of the candidates are outside of the United States so this may be more interesting from an international standpoint.
PS: Where is The Creek (NY)? The scorecard listed the tips at under 6,500 yards as of last year--are there other tees that I didn't notice? I went through the posts quickly--perhaps I missed something.
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John,
I'm not trying to deny you a course to play or be confrontational, just answer a few questions: what percentage of all golfers regularly drive the ball 270? And what percentage of courses have been stretched or designed to accomodate those who do? How much time, money and water has been wasted by the sub 270 crowd in order to accomodate the big hitters?
Jud,
You're preaching to the choir. Sort of. The answers...dont know the percentage, but it is low. Do know that younger players hit it PAST 270. On the fly! Again, were it up to me, we'd all be playing hickories. But, the game has changed. Those youngsters are the future. And the future norm. And building tees is inexpensive, especially if done the way i mentioned earlier. ****In no way am i advocating buying land or creating unsafe corridors with tees*** But building them can be a wonderful compliment to a course if the effort takes into account land forms, green access, SAFETY, and the walking experience. A great example is the job done about 8 years ago at Detroit Golf Club's North course. About 6 holes were lengthened; those that originally played long. For instance, #9 went from 435 tips to 460 and #11 went from 200 to 225. The middle tees were left alone, so the golf experience for the majority was unchanged.
We tend to look at a course and think of it now as the standard, when what we see is an accumulation of work and tweaking (and yes, lengthening) of decades. Now, not all work is done well or thoughtfully (tree plantings!), but the vast majority of renos and lengthening have greatly enhanced the course, the game and the experience. Sand Hills, Friars Head, Sebonak and many other new courses demonstrate that modern work can still have sophistication and charm, while accommodating players of all skill levels. Even the bombers.
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I think the more interesting question than "percentage of golfers" is "percentage of rounds." There are certainly plenty of short-hitters that play regularly, but better players usually have to play regularly to maintain that status. I'm not convinced that the "vast majority" of rounds are played by golfers that would be happy at 6,500 yards. I usually play around that yardage, but I have a lot of friends that are better players than I am that need more golf course than I do.
That said, not every course has to appeal to every realm of golfer. Truly, most of the best courses are not particularly playable for short-hitting high handicaps, so having some shorter and more playable courses is not a bad thing. It appears from the suggestions thus far that many of the candidates are outside of the United States so this may be more interesting from an international standpoint.
PS: Where is The Creek (NY)? The scorecard listed the tips at under 6,500 yards as of last year--are there other tees that I didn't notice? I went through the posts quickly--perhaps I missed something.
Andy,
The Creek is on the western/north shore of Long Island.
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Wilshire Country Club is at 6506. Maybe they'd lose 7 yards if it would put them on a list.
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John,
Sorry bad wording on my part. Regarding The Creek I meant to ask why it had not been mentioned yet since I believe it qualifies under 6,500 yards (?).
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I'm not convinced that the "vast majority" of rounds are played by golfers that would be happy at 6,500 yards. I usually play around that yardage, but I have a lot of friends that are better players than I am that need more golf course than I do.
That said, not every course has to appeal to every realm of golfer. Truly, most of the best courses are not particularly playable for short-hitting high handicaps, so having some shorter and more playable courses is not a bad thing. It appears from the suggestions thus far that many of the candidates are outside of the United States so this may be more interesting from an international standpoint.
Andy:
What % of rounds do you think are played from over 6500 yards? If you think it's more than 10-15%, I think you need a reality check. A sizeable % of courses that have tees listed at 6600 or 6800 yards move up the markers to get people to play those tees.
I should really be banging on John Percival about this instead of you, but it grates on me that there are so many experts among good players who think that every course HAS TO HAVE tees at 6800 or 7000 yards or it will be marginalized. There are lots of courses overseas that prove this theory wrong. Have either of you ever played Rye or Swinley Forest or Woking or any of the other good ones mentioned here?
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Tom,
Any chance your new Confidential Guide will downgrade some courses for succumbing to peer pressure in the chase for distance, narrow fairways, and difficulty? That might go further than any list we come up with here.
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Tom,
I'll stand by my point that there is a class of golfers (15% of rounds is a lot of golfers) that want more than 6,500 yards. I'm not even in that group, unless perhaps I'm in Colorado. Some of the most fervent posters on this thread are the ones that whine about courses that have more than 2 forced carries in a round. I'm glad there are courses out there that appeal to the different demographics, but all the same this "list" of courses with an arbitrary cut-off at 6,500 yards (with courses not qualifying because they succumbed to peer pressure and are now 6,553 or something) is about as useful to me as a list of courses with five or more par threes and a waterfall.
I do think courses in the US are too bent on hosting various events (with tees for those events), even though most of them never will or never do. Some new courses have back tees that are almost never used and are generally a waste of time. But the problem is not courses with 6,700 yard back tees; it is that I am able to go out and buy a new 3-wood this year that literally added 30+ yards to the "old" (late 90's) model. Many of the golfers that play short tees are perfectly capable of handling more distance, but they can't handle the distance plus severe hazards and green complexes that are so hard that half the field three-putts!
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I'm not convinced that the "vast majority" of rounds are played by golfers that would be happy at 6,500 yards. I usually play around that yardage, but I have a lot of friends that are better players than I am that need more golf course than I do.
That said, not every course has to appeal to every realm of golfer. Truly, most of the best courses are not particularly playable for short-hitting high handicaps, so having some shorter and more playable courses is not a bad thing. It appears from the suggestions thus far that many of the candidates are outside of the United States so this may be more interesting from an international standpoint.
Andy:
What % of rounds do you think are played from over 6500 yards? If you think it's more than 10-15%, I think you need a reality check. A sizeable % of courses that have tees listed at 6600 or 6800 yards move up the markers to get people to play those tees.
I should really be banging on John Percival about this instead of you, but it grates on me that there are so many experts among good players who think that every course HAS TO HAVE tees at 6800 or 7000 yards or it will be marginalized. There are lots of courses overseas that prove this theory wrong. Have either of you ever played Rye or Swinley Forest or Woking or any of the other good ones mentioned here?
Tom,
It appears this has gotten out of hand. My initial comment was to ask why a cut-off at 6500 yards. And the example of the new tees at Merion prompts the question...in the Confidential Guide, you gave Merion 10 out of 10. Will that grade change with the new length? Forget the modifications. Solely on length, does your evaluation of the course change? And if so, why. The average player still has the same tees to play.
I have NEVER diminished another player because of their skill or length. On the contrary, I constantly begged the GD brass to make the Panelist process more favorably geared to the average player and to include 'Fun or Enjoyment' as a criteria. In many of my written evaluations there were comments about course qualities and the effects on the regular tees/player. My requests fell on deaf ears, but that's all I could do.
In this instance, I was simply stating that to preclude a course because it was longer seems illogical. And yes, I played Rye and yes, I enjoyed it and yes, I wanted more distance to 'complete' my bag. Would it be awful if two or three long 4 pars had an additional 30 yards? (But not #4!)
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John...
I think you are missing the point of this thread. It is simply to identify the best courses that measure 6500 yards or less from the tips. That is it.
It has nothing to do with Tom Doak's personal rankings or any golf ranking entities Top 100 list.
Any course that measures over 6500 yards can still be great, it is simply excluded from this particular list.
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Glens Falls CC is at 6432. Could also qualify on the list of courses where both 9's end with a 3.
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I'll stand by my point that there is a class of golfers (15% of rounds is a lot of golfers) that want more than 6,500 yards. I'm not even in that group, unless perhaps I'm in Colorado.
Whatever the cutoff is, we should make allowances for courses at altitude.
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I think the important point of a list like this is that these courses still provide a strong challenge to all level of players at the shorter yardage.
it is easier to design a difficult course which is long, but not as easy to build a challenging short course.
isn't this why we always love the places like merion (pre-usga modifications) and maidstone, because they are great, challenging golf courses despite the shorter overall length. they do make a longer hitting player use every club in their bag by having short par 4's where driver is not always the best choice.
i know this is why my course (Paxon Hollow) is such a popular public golf course at 5709 yards from the tips.
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Updated list. 9-holers eliminated, frankly that's a whole other thread. Also North Berwick out unless we hear definitively that it should be in.
Aberfoyle
Addington
Aiken GC
Algonquin
Alyth
Apawamis
Arbroath
Arrowtown
Ashburn (Old)
Bald Peak Colony
Balnagask
Banhory
Beau Desert
Berkshire Blue
Birkshire Red
Blackhawk
Blackwell
Boat of Garten
Brancepeth Castle
Broadstone
Brora
Buckpool
Buddon
Burlington GCC
Burnside
Camberly Heath
Cape Arundel
Cardross
Carnoustie Burnside
Cavendish
CC Fairfield
CC Farmington
Clearwater CC
Coombe Hill
Copake
Crail Balcomie
Cullen
Dealmere Forest
Duff House Royal
Dunbar
East Renfrewshire
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Edzell
Elie
Forfar
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Fraserburgh
Friford Heath
Gleneagles (Queens)
Golspie
Gramouth & Kingston
Gullane 2
Gullane 3
Hanover CC
Harborne
Healesville
Highlands
Hindhead GC
Hockley
Hopeman
Huntercombe
Hyannisport
Inverallochy
Invergordon
Kebo Valley
Kilspindie
Kings Links
Kingswood
Kington
Kirrienuir
Knole Park
LACC South
Lakeview
Laytown & Bettystown
Leatherstockings
Lincoln Park
Liphook
Longniddry
Lulu CC
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
Maple Bluffs
Merion West
Metacomet
Milngavie
Misquimicut
Monifeith
Monroe CC
Monterey Peninsula
Montrose
Moray New
Moray Old
Morfontaine
Mount Dora GC
Murcar
Murrayfield
Nairn Dunbar
New Zealand
Newburgh
North West
Old Del Monte GC
Old Elm
Pacific Grove
Painswick
Palos Verdes
Panmure
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
Pedrena
Peterhead
Piltdown
Portrush Valley
Powfoot
Prestbury
Raey
Ranfurly Castle
Ravisloe CC
Reddish Vale
Roring Gap
Rosedale
Royal Tarlair
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Scotscraig
Seaview Bay
Siwanoy CC
Southampton
Southerndown
Speybay
Spring Valley
St. George's
Stamford GC
Stirling
Stoneham
Stonehaven
Stowe CC
Stranhill
Strathlene
Strathpeffer Spa
Swinley Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Tain
Town & Country Club
Vicotria GC
Waunumetonomy
Wentworth East
West Sussex
Westborough
White Bear YC
Wianno
Wick
Wood's Hole
Worplesdon
Jud
Thanks for listing all the candidates to date. What I love about the list is all the Scottish ones, the vast bulk of which simply don't appear on the radar on this site. If you were to cull the list down to the "best 50" or some such most of them wouldn't make the cut but let me tell you there are some terrific courses there that might not be "great" because they don't have the required length, correct number of par 3's, par 4's and par 5's, and they border the local industrial estate or caravan park or whatever, but they do provide some great golf and are huge fun to play. I've said it before, what Scotland needs is Sean Arble to relocate to the central belt of Scotland to carry on his sterling work of showcasing those courses that don't feature on the Perry Golf tours.
If I have one reservation about the whole concept, its this, I really don't judge courses on yardage but on how they play. That's not to say I can't tell a short course from a long course, I can, but length's not necessarily the defining characterisrtic, particularly on links. Indeed I have a confession, I'm not really clued in at all about course lengths. I was member for years at Glasgow Gailes, Silloth on Solway and Moray GC, played hundreds of rounds on each of those courses and yet couldn't tell you the yardage of any of them. That will possibly prove once and for all to the cognescenti on GCA that I'm nothing but a golfing ignoramus, but there you go. In mitigation I would guess that if you asked the average club member in this country about course yardages the would be equally clueless. Long may that continue. By focusing on length and bringing it to the attention of the average punter in this country (assuming of course GCA had such powers) are we not in danger of making it an issue and it having an opposite effect of encouraging clubs to focus on length with the inevitable result of courses being lengthened ?
Niall
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Just for a bit of fun I thought I'd start at the top of the Scottish mainland and work my way down the East coast to St Andrews, listing the 18-hole courses nearish the coast, excluding major/famous names and not including any inland courses or 9-holers.
I'd never have guessed there'd be this many. I could well be wrong, but I don't believe any of these are over 6,500 yds even from the back tees - I could be wrong though. I'm sure someone will say if I am! Indeed, some are well under 6,500, some under 6,000, some even under 5,000. Some crackers and gems. Some eccentric, idiosyncratic or down right weird, and some, well perhaps a few steps lower down the golfing desirability ladder.
Raey
Wick
Brora
Golspie
Tain
Invergordon
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Nairn Dunbar
Moray Old
Moray New
Hopeman
Gramouth & Kingston
Speybay
Buckpool
Strathlene
Cullen
Duff House Royal
Royal Tarlair
Fraserburgh
Inverallochy
Peterhead
Newburgh
Murcar
Kings Links
Balnagask
Stonehaven
Montrose
Arbroath
Burnside
Buddon
Panmure
Monifeith
Scotscraig
Himalayas at StA
that'll do
34 courses in about 350 miles. Just a few then.
ATB
Thomas
I've played most of those courses and would be happy to recommend all of those as being worth playing. I'd also add Forres and Elgin to the list even though they aren't right on the coast. Both well worth a game. As an aside, and as Ran mentioned his conversation with Steve Lapper, I had recommended those two to Steve in a thread last year when he and Brad Klein visited the area for last years Scottish Open. I'm pretty sure they didn't play them as they stuck to the coast.
Niall
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Another beauty that makes it under the wire by 40 or so yards is Wyantenuck CC (Pryde/Banks) in Gt. Barrington, Ma.
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I don't see a mention yet for the wonderful Windermere - only 5132 yards but a real handful amid some of the finest scenery on Earth...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24494.0.html
Or Holywell in North Wales; a relative monster at 6091 yards...
But the genie is out and for me to hit all my clubs, 6200 wont do it.
I really don't understand this.
The course profile which started off this thread was of my place, Reddish Vale. Even the biggest hitter will use every club in his bag, even though the total length from the back tees is only 6086 yards. The only reason for the short overall course length is that we have five par 3s and only two par 5s.
Much the same is true of very many old courses in the UK. Over here 6200 yards is not a short course - it is probably about average.
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Updated list:
Aberfoyle
Addington
Aiken GC
Algonquin
Alyth
Apawamis
Arbroath
Arrowtown
Ashburn (Old)
Bald Peak Colony
Ballater
Balnagask
Banhory
Beau Desert
Berkshire Blue
Birkshire Red
Blackhawk
Blackwell
Blairgowrie (wee)
Boat of Garten
Brancepeth Castle
Broadstone
Brora
Buckpool
Buddon
Burlington GCC
Burnside
Camberly Heath
Cape Arundel
Cardross
Carnoustie Burnside
Cavendish
CC Fairfield
CC Farmington
Claremont CC
Clearwater CC
Coombe Hill
Copake
Crail Balcomie
Cullen
Dealmere Forest
Downfield
Duff House Royal
Dunbar
East Renfrewshire
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Edzell
Elgin
Elie
Forfar
Forres
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Fraserburgh
Friford Heath
Glen Falls
Gleneagles (Queens)
Golspie
Gramouth & Kingston
Gullane 2
Gullane 3
Hanover CC
Harborne
Healesville
Highlands
Hindhead GC
Hockley
Hollywell
Hopeman
Huntercombe
Hyannisport
Inverallochy
Invergordon
kawartha
Kebo Valley
Kilspindie
Kings Links
Kingswood
Kington
Kirrienuir
Knole Park
LACC South
Lakeview
Laytown & Bettystown
Leatherstockings
Lincoln Park
Liphook
Longniddry
Longshore GC
Lulu CC
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
Maple Bluffs
Merion West
Metacomet
Milngavie
Misquimicut
Monifeith
Monroe CC
Monterey Peninsula
Montrose
Moray New
Moray Old
Morfontaine
Mount Dora GC
Murcar
Murrayfield
Nairn Dunbar
New Zealand
Newburgh
North West
Old Del Monte GC
Old Elm
Pacific Grove
Painswick
Palos Verdes
Panmure
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
pasatiempo
Paxon Hollow
Pedrena
Peterhead
Piltdown
Pinehurst #1
Pinehurst #3
Portrush Valley
Powfoot
Prestbury
Raey
Ranfurly Castle
Ravisloe CC
Reddish Vale
Roring Gap
Rosedale
Royal Tarlair
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Scotscraig
Seaview Bay
Siwanoy CC
South Bend CC
Southampton
Southerndown
Speybay
Spring Valley
St. George's
Stamford GC
Stirling
Stoneham
Stonehaven
Stowe CC
Stranhill
Strathlene
Strathpeffer Spa
Swinley Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Tain
The Creek Club
Town & Country Club
Vicotria GC
Waunumetonomy
Wentworth East
West Sussex
Westborough
White Bear YC
Wianno
Wick
Windermere
Wood's Hole
Worplesdon
Wyantenuck
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Just for a bit of fun I thought I'd start at the top of the Scottish mainland and work my way down the East coast to St Andrews, listing the 18-hole courses nearish the coast, excluding major/famous names and not including any inland courses or 9-holers.
I'd never have guessed there'd be this many. I could well be wrong, but I don't believe any of these are over 6,500 yds even from the back tees - I could be wrong though. I'm sure someone will say if I am! Indeed, some are well under 6,500, some under 6,000, some even under 5,000. Some crackers and gems. Some eccentric, idiosyncratic or down right weird, and some, well perhaps a few steps lower down the golfing desirability ladder.
Thomas
I've played most of those courses and would be happy to recommend all of those as being worth playing. I'd also add Forres and Elgin to the list even though they aren't right on the coast. Both well worth a game. As an aside, and as Ran mentioned his conversation with Steve Lapper, I had recommended those two to Steve in a thread last year when he and Brad Klein visited the area for last years Scottish Open. I'm pretty sure they didn't play them as they stuck to the coast.
Niall
Niall,
Amazing isn't it that you take only a 350 mile stretch of coastline around what is really a pretty small island and you come you with 34 courses of this kind of quality without including the usual big names like Dornoch, Castle Stuart, Nairn, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen, the Championship at Carnoustie plus several courses at St Andrews. Then there are the inland courses at Forres and Elgin that you mention plus many other worthies like, and this is just a few off the top of my head, Blairgowrie (2), Edzell, Alyth, Forfar, Downfield, Ballater. I'm sure there are a few more inland worthies north of the River Tay that I've omitted to mention.
A big task to whittle all below 6,500 yds within GB&I down to a top 50 let alone came up with a top-50 worldwide.
Some one else care to name the worthies from south of St Andrews along the coast as far as say Newcastle plus any inland courses in that area to consider as well?
All the best
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Kawartha (Stanley Thompson)... http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2011/12/kawartha-golf-cc.html
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Jud,
Pasatiempo's website says it's championship tees 6,500 on the nose, and Wyantenuck is 18 (now that 9 hole courses seem to be discarded from the list ;) ).
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Interestingly, while these are exactly the type of courses I should be playing and focusing on, I've only played 4 out of 168 listed! Of course 2 of them are local favorites (perhaps now I know why!). I wonder how many of the lower handicappers course reviews are colored significantly by distance and higher handicappers by lack thereof. I had a big-hitting buddy in town last week who was fortunate enough to play both Shoreacres and Chicago Golf while he was here. He didn't think Shoreacres was anything particularly special while he thought Chicago Golf was easily the best course in town he'd seen. I think there's about a 400 yard difference in length. In terms of preference, I'd flip the order. Time to retire to Scotland...
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Addington, Lundin, Rye: there's plenty of course in these for most. Addy and Rye do it with 6 par 3s, Rye additionally with some ballbusting 4s. Lundin, now there's a wonder. Perhaps all three share a little bit of Merion: rather than a bunch of 4s at roughly the same distance they've got a few short 4s to help the backbreakers go down a little easier.
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Addington, Lundin, Rye: there's plenty of course in these for most. Addy and Rye do it with 6 par 3s, Rye additionally with some ballbusting 4s. Lundin, now there's a wonder. Perhaps all three share a little bit of Merion: rather than a bunch of 4s at roughly the same distance they've got a few short 4s to help the backbreakers go down a little easier.
Rye pulls of the short yardage with five par 3s and only one par 5 - par 68 6497 yards from the backs. From the backs Rye plays far more like 7100 yards than 6500 yards - its tough and long despite what the card says.
Ciao
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So anybody want to try and get the 20 best out of that list (no numerical order) and then let the next posts challenge whether any course should be replaced?
On the long list, there are clearly some absolutely world class courses in there (West Sussex, Rye) and then there are a number of 4th tier nominations...
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Yes, the list has become a bit indiscriminate. Of the courses I know fairly well or better I would go with
Addington
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Edgbaston
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Liphook
New Zealand
Prestbury
Southerndown
Stoneham
Worplesdon
as decent shots for top 50 and I think all arguably a Doak 6.
Kington, Royal West Norfolk & Beau Desert as shoe in top 50 - I think all are comfortable Doak 6
And no brainer top 25
North Berwick - arguably top 100 world
Royal Worlington (9 holes schmoles - this is a great course!) - arguably top 100 world
Rye - very strong argument for top 100 world
Swinley Forest - arguably top 100 world
I suspect Berkshire Red, Berkshire Blue, West Sussex and Elie are strong candidates. I think Blackwell would be if it had a serious haircut.
Ciao
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Updated above...
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Here's a rough first stab at a Top 25 based on previous comments (Alphabetical). Please comment on why courses should be added or subtracted.
Addington
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
The Creek Club
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worplesdon
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The list looks pretty good!
Seeing as Beau was left off, I would say it could easily replace Stoneham because its greens are superior - and I do mean superior.
I can let Kington go because people can't be blamed for being stupid when they are inexperienced - tee hee.
I can't understand Worly being ignored. Even if doubled, the yardage is well under 6500. Besides, given the current state of Huntercombe being in a green and brown shroud of growth (I don't don't see the club actually getting it until people move on), I would easily take the Sacred 9.
I have to say, not having at least Berkshire Red on the list looks very odd, but I will leave it for someone else. Though, with Edgbaston too needing a haircut in a big way it is prime for replacing....
Ciao
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I have not played most of the courses on the list so maybe I've got this substitution wrong: Worpy off, Lundin on. Lundin needs to be on, certainly before Worplesdon.
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Sean,
There are several worthy 9-holers, Worly being the best of the bunch. In light of the revelation that this list is though, isn 't it best to have a similarly eye-opening list of 9-holers as a separate list?
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With Sean's suggested changes, I think that's a very good list, but would probably be better if there were some more diversity -- a couple more American courses, a couple of European ones [I can't remember how long De Pan and Morfontaine are, they would be locks], maybe one in Japan. I'll check out some yardages on those. And what about Australia? I guess Woodlands and Commonwealth have bumped up their yardages to meet "championship standard" -- they actually have one down there, and it was the ruination of Commonwealth.
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Sean
Without addressing the architectural merits of 9-holers would you say stewards of 18-hole (or 36 or 54 hole) courses might be inclined to dismiss the applicability of their "lessons"? Nines, I would guess 18-holer people say, are less likely to feel "tournament pressures."
Tom, I had checked Tokyo, Kawana and Hirono -- none make the cut.
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I like Edgbaston but even with a haircut it's not as good as Broadstone or Parkstone. Ipswich/Purdis Heath?
I think Spa (Belgium) should be included for the sake of variety. Pan is too long, I think Morfontaine is too?
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Tom, I had checked Tokyo, Kawana and Hirono -- none make the cut.
I was hoping Naruo would be shorter, but it's 6600+ . The Ohshima course at Kawana would be a good candidate for the best 5000-yard courses -- there is some cool stuff there, but it's kind of wacky, and no match for those on this list.
Golf de Spa is a good choice for Simpson/Europe (or so I hear :'( ).
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Tandridge (Colt) and Turfvaert (Pont) both fit the bill
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Not having Beau Desert on a list of best courses below 6,500 yds would be like having a historic/classic/vintage motor race without a Ferrari or a Maserati or an Alfa on the grid.
To play Beau Desert at the moment, all brown and beige and firm and fast would I'm sure be thrilling (and tough).
http://www.bdgc.co.uk/course_image_gallery.asp
All the best.
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I like Edgbaston but even with a haircut it's not as good as Broadstone or Parkstone. Ipswich/Purdis Heath?
I think Spa (Belgium) should be included for the sake of variety. Pan is too long, I think Morfontaine is too?
Paul
The fact that Broadstone is not a shoe in for something like this is a big tick against the place. It shouldn't even be close between Edgbaston and Broadstone - the sites are that different in quality. Unfortunately, Broadstone is now a dog's dinner to what it should be. Given the current states of each course, I take Edgbaston 5.5 to 4.5. Its quite a clever design and with better greens. Its taken me about 6 plays over as many years, but I now see the quality. I think the club relaying the greens has helped quite a bit as well.
Mark - do you think the folks at Worly worry much about tournament golf?
Why so little support for Leatherstocking? The pix make it look ideal for a list of this sort.
Ciao
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Sean that is exactly my point.
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Sean that is exactly my point.
So whats the problem? Some clubs know what they have and want easy street and some clubs like to muck about.
Ciao
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Changes and additions made. Now we've got a top 30. Any other necessary geographic additions for diversity? I was wondering about Leatherstockings myself. Thoughts on St. George's and Elie?:
Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Boat of Garten
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Pennard
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southern Pines
Southerndown
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
The Creek Club
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC
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My vote:
Southern Pines In
Lundin Links out.
Lundin is a terrific course but not in the class of the others. I thought Southern Pines was very good.
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Can anyone make a reasonable argument for Tandridge or Knole Park being on this list ahead of Boat of Garten? Maybe that's a two-steps-back-one-step-forward method of culling the list.
Tandridge has the Colt heritage, but the GCA thread on it -- http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49526.0.html -- shows a course that, for my tastes, is over-bunkered with some significant tree problems. Sean Arble's photos are still being repaired :(, but I recall his thread on Knole Park --http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53010.0.html
-- and didn't seen anything there that would make me choose it over a round at the Boat.
Does the Boat get penalized because no one on the board has seen fit to venture off the A9 on the way to Dornoch to play it? :)
And I'd like to see something in pictures of Turfvaert to warrant its inclusion.
I'd argue two links courses under 6,500 -- Crail Balcomie and esp. Fraserburgh -- are better than Lundin. I think Golf House Club (Elie) may be better as well.
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My vote:
Southern Pines In
Lundin Links out.
Lundin is a terrific course but not in the class of the others. I thought Southern Pines was very good.
done in the name of geographic diversity. What about Australia?
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Tandridge is a shoe in.
Anyone mentioned Pennard? Can't be too long, surely.
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My vote:
Southern Pines In
Lundin Links out.
Lundin is a terrific course but not in the class of the others. I thought Southern Pines was very good.
done in the name of geographic diversity.
Well, what's the quota, then, so I can make adjustments based on arbitrary measures as opposed to merit? ???
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Tandridge is a shoe in.
Make your argument...I can see several of these being shoe-ins, but I don't see what merit's Tandridge's inclusion.
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In his introduction to his profile of Reddish Vale Ran Morrissett said:
I was talking with Steve Lapper recently about GolfClubAtlas.com starting a ranking. Groan, groan, groan, you think as your eyes roll back in your head. Wait! Ours would be of the world’s best 6,500y and under courses. Let’s give clubs a reason NOT to expand their tee boxes backwards. Let’s herald courses that still value walking by keeping the green to tee walks tight. Though we may never compile such a ranking, it is wonderful to tip the hat to exceedingly worthy places such as Reddish Vale and Fraserburgh.
Should we try to compile a list of the top 50 qualifying courses? The list could be expanded to any number of courses you fancy. We could have separate compilations for courses under 6,250 yards, 6,000 yards and maybe even under 5,750 yards.
Just to place this exercise in proper context, GMBF's two suggestions apparently have failed to make the cut. :P
Jason, how can Lundin be booted if it's a "terrific" course? For the record, I like Southern Pines, too, and find the idea of one included the other excluded to be kind of a Sophie's Golf Choice.
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Tandridge is a shoe in.
Anyone mentioned Pennard? Can't be too long, surely.
Paul:
Based on pictures alone, I'd pay 10 rounds at Pennard to one for Tandridge.
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OK, we're up to 39. Keep 'em coming, must have's, possible dropouts:
Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Broadstone
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Edgabaston
Elie
Fraserburgh
Golf de Spa
Huntercombe
Ipswich
Kington
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southern Pines
Southerndown
St. George's
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
The Creek Club
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worpleston
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Fraserburgh and Reddish Vale?
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Here are a few courses from Texas and Oklahoma. I am not sure they all merit being in the Top 50 discussion but they are all pretty good courses under 6,500 yards from the back tees.
Brackenridge Park Golf Course - 6,263 yards (A.W. Tillinghast), San Antonio, TX
Dornick Hills - 6,453 yards (Perry Maxwell), Ardmore, OK
Onion Creek Club (Original Course) - 6,351 yards (Jimmy Demaret), Austin, TX
River Crest Country Club - 6,383 yards (Tom Bendelow), Fort Worth, TX
Stevens Park Golf Course - 6,285 yards (Jackie Burke Sr.) Dallas, TX
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Dornick Hills isn't all original is it?
Mark,
Done above. We're at 43 and counting...
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Dornick Hills was renovated back in the 90's I believe, it would be a great course to restore.
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Changes and additions made. So what 3 courses come out? any other necessary geographic additions for diversity? I was wondering about Leatherstockings myself. Thoughts on St. George's and Elie?:
Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
The Creek Club
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Jud, thanks for the coordinated listings.
Golspie - special place
Tain - often missed, should be played
Perranporth - links on top the cliffs
Tadmarton Heath - wee inland gem
Green course at Frilford Heath - wee inland gem
Minchinhampton Old - links in the sky, love it!
Dooks - less tha n6,500
Southerndown in but no Pennard
RACV Healsville? Lots of very positive GCA comments
Anything worthy in South America below 6,500?
Heard it said on here recently that Fraserburgh is better than Cruden Bay. If so, Fraserburgh should be included.
Just some thoughts.
ATB
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How about Country Club of Troy and Rolling Rock?
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It's a good list but I do think we need some more US courses here though. I'm sure there's lots that could qualify.
Phil
Based on playing both I'd go for Pennard 6:4 over Tandridge. But that's only because I like Pennard a lot.
Anyway Tandridge's strengths:
Other than the unusual bunkering and mounding, which I happen to like because it's different for the UK... the course has a super routing with lots of variety on a small property. Many fine greens, some with complicated tiers like the 2nd, others more subtle like the 5th which falls away and others with a severe tilt (4th, 6th). The course has a good rhythm and builds to a spectacular finish.
If you don't believe me at least..."Golf's Most Beloved" is a big fan..not sure why he never reviewed it though
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Everyone (and Jud),
As the protagonist in this discussion with his eminence (aka now Golf's most bitter ;D), I think it's time to step in and send all of you precision scorecard readers to your respective corners. Call off the "cut' men and put on your robes!
Our discussion was not semantically limited to "exactly those courses that tipped out under 6500 yds." It was NOT driven by the need to exclude course like a Somerset Hills, a Pasatiempo or a Myopia Hunt because they extend slightly past 6500yds. The thrust of the discussion was about listing and segregating out those gems whose design and regular teeing grounds yield tremendous strategy AT or NEAR 6500yds. It was almost as much about wanting to exclude the raw brutes or hideously disfigured "Francis Bacon-style" courses that so regularly dominate the GD lists.
Go ahead and add or subtract 3-5% and then ask yourself just how wonderful the course's architecture revealed itself to a myriad of different abilities within a spectrum of reasonability? Exclude those whose multiple tees stretch a layout back far enough to challenge the modern college player or professional. Who cares about them?? ;D Remember, that subset adds up to less than 1% of those actively playing the game.
We pined for the challenge and strategic design that tipped out in that vicinity but still left excited and eager to move up in response to the appropriate wind, temperature or even shaft material. We wanted a list that reflected talent and genius, but still had room for evolution (sorry Rees).
Go ahead now and lower the buckets, pull the chairs, untie the robes and get back in there!!! Most all of you will soon have a new punching bag that'll be posted later....so hurry up and get a few more shots in! ;) ;)
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A few off the top of my head ...
A quartet of William P Bell designs:
Balboa Park, San Diego 6281
Encanto, Phoenix 6386
Biltmore (Adobe), Phoenix 6428
El Rio, Tucson 6418
Plus a more modern design north of San Diego:
Mt Woodson. Tiny on the card at 5764 but carrying a 133 slope to show it's no pushover. Of course, nothing about the design is likely to appeal to this group. But it's still an interesting study.
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I don't know the yardage, but I am sure Pennard is now more than 6500 yards from the back tees.
I like Reddish Vale a lot, but I think it is probably just on the wrong side of a Doak 6 for this list. I wouldn't dream of giving up Kington for Reddish Vale - that doesn't make sense. Hell, I would put Kington ahead of many courses I listed. Its right there with Beau Desert.
Ciao
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Phil,
FYI Boat of Garten was a Doak 5. So was Elie but there seems to be a strong enough contingent in favor. Lundin was a 3...
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Jud T:
Do you have the Confidential Guide ratings for the 40 or so courses you've listed (not to give you any work... :)?)
Not to be a slave to Tom's rankings, but maybe some combination of Conf. Guide rankings, Ran's reviews, reputable ;D GCA thread-posters, and more spirited debate will get us down to 25-30. Lapper's addendums and provisos is making this harder, but we're up to it.
(And remember that part of the Doak's rankings directly talk about length, which to my mind can be amended given the constraints of this ranking. Doak 4 definition: 4: "A modestly interesting course, with a couple of distinctive holes among the 18, or at least some scenic interest and decent golf. Also reserved for some very good courses that are much too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished golfers.")
Perhaps that suggests a Doak 4 might be a Doak 6 or 7 adjusted for this ranking.
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What about Coombe Hill?
Phil,
I'll add it back if we get a couple of seconds on it...
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Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?
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In the interest of geographic diversity, how about Mar del Plata Golf Club, which tips out at 6,024 yards?
Or perhaps two of the three 18-hole combinations at the higher-ranked Olivos Golf Club in Buenos Aires? (There are three nines, and one of the 18-hole combinations is longer than 6500 yards.) In 2011, Golf Digest ranked Olivos as the #71 course outside the U.S. -- a ranking that (as I've said before) seems pretty crazy to me, but it's still a very solid course.
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Mark
I am not sure I would support S Pines or Lundin. This is a tough list. Look, a classy joint like Delamere Forest failed to make the grade. Same for Portrush Valley. Although, has S Pines had work done to it recently?
I don't know Coombe Hill, but it must be like tons of Londonish courses, very competent design without being particularly special.
Ciao
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Are we discussing par 72 courses at 6,500 yards? Par 70 courses should drop to 6,300 yards. I have seen some sub 6,500 yard courses with par 3's in excess of 230 yards. I'd put these holes as borderline unreachable for many golfers.
Also, most courses don't play tipped on every hole, even the pro tournament tees are varied each round.
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Here's a rough first stab at a Top 25 based on previous comments (Alphabetical). Please comment on why courses should be added or subtracted.
Addington
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
The Creek Club
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worplesdon
Well, look at that - a list of mostly affordable, easy to maintain, enjoyable to play, modest, walkable, well-designed golf courses that have withstood the test of time by surviving for 70 and 80 and 90 years through all sorts of social and economic and technological changes by successfully fulfilling their main and perhaps only true purpose, i.e. providing local golfers with a challenging but pleasant and sustainable environment in which to enjoy the game.
Now THERE is true value, and in that value greatness -- for surely (no?) a key way of determining/judging the value of thing is in terms of how well it fulfills its main function/purpose.
Peter
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Are we discussing par 72 courses at 6,500 yards? Par 70 courses should drop to 6,300 yards. I have seen some sub 6,500 yard courses with par 3's in excess of 230 yards. I'd put these holes as borderline unreachable for many golfers.
Also, most courses don't play tipped on every hole, even the pro tournament tees are varied each round.
Keith -- I think this point reflects the kind of conventional thinking that's led us down the path to thinking all courses should be pars of 72 at 7,000+ yards. By all accounts, Rye is a beast at a par of 68 -- so be it. Most people dismiss Boat of Garten because it's under 6,000 yards, but at a par of 69 when I played it (now par 70 after one hole was stretched to a shortish par 5), it was a lot of golf course, particularly given the tight playing corridors that rendered driver off the tee a risky proposition, the smallish greens, and the uneven terrain that one usually finds on the fairways there.
Spring Valley -- a Langford in Wisconsin -- is another course that's deceptively long that plays to a par of 70 at @ 6,400 yds. It has 4 par fours that measure 460, 450, 435, and 420 from the tips, and 3 par threes that go 230, 180, and 190 from the tips -- pretty hefty stuff for a course that you can play for under $20 on weekends.
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Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?
The suspicion is Medal tees have been added which push it over the limit. Would love a definitive answer from a local. Paging Simon Holt...
Current List:
Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Broadstone
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
The Creek
Eastward Ho!
Edgabaston
Elie
Fraserburgh
Golf de Spa
Huntercombe
Kington
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
St. George's
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worplesdon
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How about Southampton post renovation?
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For the upstate NY contingent here's this.
Glens Falls is in Ian Andrew's world Top 100. Tom Doak has posted it is a course in our area on his "to see" list. It's a Donald Ross course. I have not, yet, played it.
Leatherstocking is a fun course with some interesting holes. Personally, I rate St. George's above it on the Emmet canon. My understanding, maybe flawed, is that Les Rayner the pro there added the 18th tee out in the lake at Leatherstocking, which is cool, but the 16th, 17th, and 18th are out of character with the rest of the course. That said, Leatherstocking is Emmet quirk through and through.
Here in the states, Emmet was a prolific Golden Age architect, but certainly he is overshadowed by Ross, MacKenzie, Tillie, Flynn, & MacRaynor. When I mentioned my theory that Emmet was a 2nd tier architect to David M., he objected, saying Emmet was definitely a top tier GA architect. Based on the rankings, you wouldn't think that, but then again, the competition is tough, and judging by St. George's NY and Leatherstocking, Emmet created fun courses with quirk not muscular, championship tests. That seems like the kind of course that fits the bill, here, so maybe this is the list he gets his due.
CC of Troy, a Travis course, I haven't played since well before my GCA baptism. However, it was one of my GCA drivers, as though I had no vocabulary to describe the course I knew at the time it was a cool course. It had that "it" of greens and hazards, contours and routing that an observant if not knowledgeable neophyte keys in on.
Are these four courses in the Top 50-100 sub-6500? I don't know, but, I do know that these are well regarded courses by top architects and certainly worthy of consideration.
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I expect few of you have played it, but South Bend Country Club is worth consideration for the shortened list. I've only played a few courses on the overall list, but I think SBCC is every bit as good as Maidstone and Shoreacres.
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I expect few of you have played it, but South Bend Country Club is worth consideration for the shortened list. I've only played a few courses on the overall list, but I think SBCC is every bit as good as Maidstone and Shoreacres.
Wow, high praise, Andy!
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Rockaway Hunting Club; Lawrence, NY; don't have the exact yardage in front of me, but 6400 is probably the max.
Will check on Inwood, as well.
Also, just to be correct, the name of the Macdonald course in Locust Valley, NY is simply called "The Creek" and not The Creek Club.
Just as the NYC men's club that CBM helped get started is called The Links and not The Links Club.
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Jason, how can Lundin be booted if it's a "terrific" course? For the record, I like Southern Pines, too, and find the idea of one included the other excluded to be kind of a Sophie's Golf Choice.
Mark: It is a top 25 list so I think a course can be terrific and not make the grade. The meadow holes at Lundin are a negative although the view from the 14th might compensate. From my relatively old memory of two rounds at Southern Pines I cannot remember a weak hole.
To me if you are going to suggest an addition you need to suggest a cut. I thought about Brora but could not bring myself to do it. Too much soul there.
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Jason,
Agreed, the meadow holes definitely are a demerit. I just like Lundie for this list because, in addition to really enjoying the course, I feel like it is a man's course. It punches above its weight.
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Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?
Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;
(http://i36.servimg.com/u/f36/16/66/77/52/north_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=12&u=16667752)
But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7
Does that mean it is in or out?
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I'd say that it means North Berwick is in.
UNDER 6,500, so those are just too long. Yes - tips. As an Englishman I am thinking in terms of the men's medal plate, the one from which you play all significant club competitions during the season.
The distance from the Mens' medal plates is 6456 yards. A few 'Championship' tees in adjacent farmers' fields specifically built every ten years or so for Open qualifying do not change the official length of a course for members or visitors.
Oh, and when Ran initially suggested a list of courses under 6500 yards, he specifically referenced Fraserburgh and Reddish Vale as prime examples of courses that should be included.
Ergo, Fraserburgh and Reddish Vale should be in! ;D
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Geographically, it's good to see some courses from Argentina mentioned.
I've heard there's at least one quality course in Santiago, Chile. Regrettably I cannot recall it's name. Plus wasn't there talk on GCA recently about a Dr MacK course in Montevideo, Uruguay?
I thought about courses in South Africa. However, a little googling indicated the usual suspects like Humewood and East London etc, and even some of the more unusual suspects, all exceeded 6,500 yds. Royal Port Alfred though, which I've heard some nice comments about, is less than the yardage being discussed here. Anyone SA way or who's been there/played it reckon it's worthy of inclusion?
Just some thoughs.
ATB
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I think North Berwick should be in if it doesn't include those Open Championship qualifying tees on its regular scorecard.... If it does, then it should be excluded.... (this should be consistent when judging all courses... i.e. the "back" tees as broadcast)
We are surprisingly short on links courses and high on heathlands.... I'd suggest Strandhill but I'm not sure the quality is quite there to displace anyone...
I haven't seen Edgbaston but I might question it as Arble whimsy?
Also think we need to see more American & international courses - there must be some to displace a few of those above?... Let's keep it to 25 any which way...
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Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?
Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;
(http://i36.servimg.com/u/f36/16/66/77/52/north_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=12&u=16667752)
But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7
Does that mean it is in or out?
Ross
I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack. I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere. It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course. It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards. All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.
Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.
Ciao
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Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?
Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;
(http://i36.servimg.com/u/f36/16/66/77/52/north_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=12&u=16667752)
But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7
Does that mean it is in or out?
Ross
I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack. I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere. It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course. It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards. All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.
Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.
Ciao
Sean - my point being there may not be a card with the 6,592 yards on it other than a temporary one... If the only club card shows 6,450 as back then it should be in...
Which of the 25 would be your first to go, then?
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Royal Portrush (Valley), 6304 off the medal tees.
Silloth on Solway 6400-odd yards.
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Martin,
Silloth is 6,600 yards from the back tees on the scorecard...
Don't think we can look at Medal tees... Has to be back tees marked on the scorecard...
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Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?
Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;
(http://i36.servimg.com/u/f36/16/66/77/52/north_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=12&u=16667752)
But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7
Does that mean it is in or out?
Ross
I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack. I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere. It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course. It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards. All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.
Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.
Ciao
Sean - my point being there may not be a card with the 6,592 yards on it other than a temporary one... If the only club card shows 6,450 as back then it should be in...
Which of the 25 would be your first to go, then?
Ally
Are tee areas created and do the members recognize them? Because a separate card is produced doesn't mean squat to me. I don't think we list the yardage of the back tees on the card used for daily play at Burnham, but all the members know that a couple of times a year those tees are in play.
I don't know what the 25 courses are. To date, we have 39 or something.
Ciao
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Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?
Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;
(http://i36.servimg.com/u/f36/16/66/77/52/north_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=12&u=16667752)
But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7
Does that mean it is in or out?
Ross
I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack. I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere. It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course. It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards. All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.
Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.
Ciao
Sean - my point being there may not be a card with the 6,592 yards on it other than a temporary one... If the only club card shows 6,450 as back then it should be in...
Which of the 25 would be your first to go, then?
Ally
Are tee areas created and do the members recognize them? Because a separate card is produced doesn't mean squat to me. I don't think we list the yardage of the back tees on the card used for daily play at Burnham, but all the members know that a couple of times a year those tees are in play.
I don't know what the 25 courses are. To date, we have 39 or something.
Ciao
Depends if the members ever play from them I agree... And if they were constructed for any other reason than Open qualifying?... And if they were actually really constructed at all?.... If Simon can give us an answer to this...
Time to knock some of those 39 off the top-25 list... Leave them in a reserve bucket... Prestbury & Stoneham? Turfvaert? It may be the greatest course in Europe but it was nominated by Frank and no-one else has seen it unfortunately... Elie?
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On principle I say disqualify any course that's hosted a flogger tournament, including Open qualifiers.
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On principle I say disqualify any course that's hosted a flogger tournament, including Open qualifiers.
Your call of course Mark.... But we want a serious list of high-end golf courses that show that under 6,500 yards can equal world class... Small technicalities should be overlooked if the clubs disregard those tees in their entirety for all publicity and events other than the one or two in question... If the club says its course plays to 6,450 yards then that is the right attitude... Again, we might need Simon?
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I think North Berwick should be in if it doesn't include those Open Championship qualifying tees on its regular scorecard.... If it does, then it should be excluded.... (this should be consistent when judging all courses... i.e. the "back" tees as broadcast)
We are surprisingly short on links courses and high on heathlands.... I'd suggest Strandhill but I'm not sure the quality is quite there to displace anyone...
I haven't seen Edgbaston but I might question it as Arble whimsy?
Also think we need to see more American & international courses - there must be some to displace a few of those above?... Let's keep it to 25 any which way...
Tend to agree with Ally here.
"We are surprisingly short on links courses" - yip - as mentioned Dooks gets much praise, Golspie and Tain are quality gems, Pennard and Perranporth are unforgettable. Folk travel distances to play all of these although admittedly Golspie and Tain perhaps get visited more because Brora and Dornoch are nearby.
Not convinced about Edgbaston. There are quite a few courses less than 6,500 within 10-20 miles of Edgbaston/Birmingham that are probably superior. The lovely Lodge course at Enville, 6,472 from the tips comes immediately to mind, and, like it very much as I do, I can't see myself nominate that for best 50 in the world under 6,500. And then there's Blackwell at 6,283 par-70/SSSI 71. An SSSI higher than par is normally a good indicator of difficulty/quality.
I'd need a little more convincing to support either Elie, Camberly Heath, Cavendish, Kington, Knole Park, Parkstone, Prestbury, Southerndown (over Pennard from Wales??), Tandridge or Turfvaert good as they be, although I'd be happy to bow to the judgement of other GCA'ers who know them well.
Not sure about Marks idea to "On principle....disqualify any course that's hosted a flogger tournament, including Open qualifiers.". That I believe would mean no Beau Desert for example, and as I said in an earlier post, not having Beau Desert present would be like having a historic/classic/vintage motor race without a Ferrari, Maserati or Alfa Romeo on the grid. And Beau Desert is still under 6,500 for significant events, unlike others mentioned which may be included even though they have some way-back special occasional tees.
Jud,
in your summary list it might be an idea to state where the courses are located given that some clubs internationally have similar names. I think I know which one is meant but, for example, The Creek is also in Dubai and Maidstone is originally a town in Kent, England. Plus the confusingly named New Zealand GC is of course in Surrey, England!
All the best
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I’m amazed that nobody has yet mentioned the Machrie (6299 yards) as a contender for the list of the “world’s best 6,500 yard and under courses”.
Then again, I suppose if nominations depend on having played (or walked) the course in question then that might explain why this remote wee world class gem is such a glaring omission... :(
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Well done Jim... Someone should have mentioned it...
David - Dooks is no longer under 6,500 since the Hawtree & Westenborg renovation / redesign...
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We need clarification on the Medal tees at Pennard.
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I’m amazed that nobody has yet mentioned the Machrie (6299 yards) as a contender for the list of the “world’s best 6,500 yard and under courses”.
Then again, I suppose if nominations depend on having played (or walked) the course in question then that might explain why this remote wee world class gem is such a glaring omission... :(
That's a good call Jim.
Although I've not been there, I certainly would like to one day, but what about Askernish then folks?
Now over 6,500 so no Dooks then. Fair enough.
ATB
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We need clarification on the Medal tees at Pennard.
Club website says 6,800 yards off the "championship" tees, 6,276 off the medals.
Seeing as they are embracing extra length in advertising the course, they should most certainly be excluded.
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Thomas
A lot of folks gravitate toward Enville. About half the land is on good turf, but the design of the course is often very haphazard and without rhyme or reason. No way I would get behind it as better than Edgbaston. That doesn't mean I think Edgbaston is top 25 or whatever, just that folks make assumptions based on a name and sometimes it takes some digging to uncover the quality of the design.
Ally
So far as tweeking the list down, all I can say is with confidence I think Royal Worlington, Rye & Swinley Forest should be on the list. With less confidence I think Beau Desert & Kington should be considered.
Not knowing these other courses, but I would think Berkshire Red/Blue, Machrie, Pulbourough, West Sussex, White Bear, Pasa, Maidstone, Creek Club, Eastward Ho!, Parapara...Beach and Elie make strong cases. Addington, Cavendish, Camberley Heath, Edgbaston, Southerndown, Worplesdon also make very good cases. If there is space, several courses also make good cases: Machrihanish, Brora, Huntercombe, Liphook, New Zealand, Prestbury, Knole Park & Stoneham.
Since part of the job of any golf course is to challenge all levels of players except for maybe touring pros, I think consideration should be given to courses which play quite tough for their yardage. In which case Addington, Edgbaston, New Zealand, Worplesdon, Machrinhanish, Brora, Machrie, Southerndown and Elie (wind for links!) should perhaps be given another look for very serious consideration.
So, just taking my stab at it:
Rye
Brancaster
Swinley Forest
Sacred 9
Beau Desert
Kington
Berkshire Red
Machrie
Pulborough
White Bear Yacht
Pasatiempo (is this really less than 6500?)
Maidstone
Creek club
Eastward Ho!
Parapara...Beach
Elie
Addington
New Zealand
Worplesdon
Machrihanish
Brora
Machrie
Southerndown
St Georges
Edgbaston (tee hee)
Though Golf de Spa and Old Elm are intriguing.
Ciao
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Sean
I agree on your notion that just a small handful are above reproach and would add Addy. Just a couple of clunkers on that course and 13-18 is just excellent.
On reputation Pulborough might qualify as well, both as Pulborough and as West Sussex.
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Mark
The more I go back to Addy the less I like it. Though for this purpose, it works very well because its tough as old boots.
Hang on - has nobody checked the card for Saunton West???? I think it is 6403 (from memory- tee hee). In the interest of getting more links in there because flat bellies like a challenge
Rye
Brancaster
Swinley Forest
Sacred 9
Beau Desert
Kington
Berkshire Red
Machrie
Pulborough
White Bear Yacht
Pasatiempo (is this really less than 6500?)
Maidstone
Creek club
Eastward Ho!
Parapara...Beach
Elie
Addington
New Zealand
Worplesdon
Machrihanish
Brora
Machrie
Southerndown
St Georges
Edgbaston (tee hee)
Saunton West
Ciao
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Latest list, talk amongst yourselves...
Addington GC, Surrey UK
Askernish, South Uist, Scotland
Beau Desert, Staffordshire UK
Berkshire Red, Berkshire UK
Broadstone, Dorset UK
Brora, Sutherland, Scotland
Camberly Heath, Surrey UK
Cavendish, Derbyshire UK
CC Troy, NY
Eastward Ho!, Chatham, MA
Elie, Fife, Scotland
Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Glens Falls, Queensbury, NY
Golf de Spa, Belgium
Huntercombe, Oxfordshire UK
Kawartha Golf & CC, Ontario, CA
Kington, Herefordshire, UK
Knole Park, Kent UK
Leatherstockings, Cooperstown, NY
Liphook, Hampshire, UK
Machrie, Isle of Islay, Scotland
Machrihanish, Argyll, Scotland
Maidstone, East Hampton, NY
New Zealand GC, Surrey, UK
Old Elm, Highland Park, IL
Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand
Parkstone, Dorset, UK
Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz, CA
Prestbury, Cheshire, UK
Royal West Norfolk, UK
Rye, East Sussex, UK
Saunton West, North Devon UK
South Bend CC, IN
Southern Pines, NC
Southerndown, Bridgend, Wales
St. George's, East Setauket, NY
Stoneham, Hampshire, UK
Swinley Forest, Birkshire, UK
Tandridge, Surrey, UK
The Creek, Locust Valley, NY
Turfvaert, Rijsbergen, Netherlands
West Sussex, UK
White Bear Yacht Club, Dellwood, MN
Worplesdon, Surrey, UK
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Sean,
Pasatiempo lists the Championship tees at exactly 6500.
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Why isn't Berkshire Blue included? There's not much to choose between it and the Red.
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Did no one read an earlier post that the supposed rule of 6500yds isn't hard and fast, instead our conversation was centered on strategy found within the realm of 6500yds!!! The focus should be on strategic design!!
When you go off and make these lists and substitute an Old Elm for a Shoreacres or a CC of Troy for a Westhampton and omit the likes of Myopia Hunt, CC of Fairfield, St. Louis,Claremont, or a Roaring Gap....you produce a sub-standard meaningless list that adds little value or relativity.
The point isn't a hard cut-off of yardage, though if you must 6650 is far more relevant and inspirational. That way some true gems (i.e..CPC, Fishers, Somerset Hills Lehigh) that deserve entry aren't excluded based on a mere 150yds (or simply the variance of tees across a course on less than 6800yds).
FWIW...Ran, Tuco, and myself might well try one day to lobby our panel to create and publish just such a list....so let's at leaast try our hardest to make it an exceptional one. ;D
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Steve,
Point taken, but most everyone has heard of Shoreacres, Fishers Island and Crystal Downs. And why 6650? There must be some really great tracks at 6700? 6500 is more than enough golf course for 5/6ths of the world's golfers and highlights some really good courses. How many of those listed above have you played?
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Steve,
Point taken, but most everyone has heard of Shoreacres, Fishers Island and Crystal Downs. And why 6650? There must be some really great tracks at 6700? 6500 is more than enough golf course for 5/6ths of the world's golfers and highlights some really good courses. How many of those listed above have you played?
The idea was to find the best amidst a group that emphasizes strategy over length, brains over brawn and charm over size. The extra 150 yds is actually a # that is best representative of the net difference btw "members" tee placement and the tips of those courses. Like Rich Goodale said, using those tees closest to the preceding green fits the thesis Ran and myself were postulating. Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length.
For your edification, I've played all of those I've listed and 26 off your last posted list. You?
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OK,
26 is pretty impressive, I'll admit. I've played exactly 1! But that's the point. These are exactly the type of courses a guy like me should be seeking out. In my hunt to bedpost notch in my misspent youth, I overlooked a bunch of really fun, less expensive gems.
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Steve,
Point taken, but most everyone has heard of Shoreacres, Fishers Island and Crystal Downs. And why 6650? There must be some really great tracks at 6700? 6500 is more than enough golf course for 5/6ths of the world's golfers and highlights some really good courses. How many of those listed above have you played?
The idea was to find the best amidst a group that emphasizes strategy over length, brains over brawn and charm over size. The extra 150 yds is actually a # that is best representative of the net difference btw "members" tee placement and the tips of those courses. Like Rich Goodale said, using those tees closest to the preceding green fits the thesis Ran and myself were postulating. Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length.
For your edification, I've played all of those I've listed and 26 off your last posted list. You?
I think both ideas are worthy ones, Steve. The thread title may be misrepresentative of how the thread has developed so maybe should be changed... But the thread should continue full steam ahead....
As for Rich's idea of the closest tees to the last green, this is incredibly worthy when actually designing a course. In fact, it's right up there as one of the most important considerations. However, it's no basis for a list of any sort.
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"Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length."
Steve L,
Then why bother with yardage at all? It seems you already have in mind a list and are backfilling the criteria to ensure those courses fit. Anyway, many of these older courses have seen length added. On the logic, what's the difference between one course adding yardage to stretch out to 6,500 yards vs another that adds yardage to get to 6,800 yards, or even 6,900 yards? Some even have done this not to cater to floggers but rather to golfers.
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Full disclosure- since as a silver lining this has turned into the best possible advert for Sean's fledgling travel business, I have it on good authority that all the warm pints I can down when I'm in country will be gratis... ;D
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Just a thought...using a strict yardage criteria may come into play as far as effort to walk the course, but as far as playability I think we need to consider topography and wind factors. When I was in Ireland in May, there were heaps of holes in the 400-420 variety which were unreachable due to 30-40 MPH wind conditions, playing at 6300 yards or so. For example, par four 10th hole at Tralee, caddie tells us unreachable. Par four 2nd hole at Waterville, drive and three wood, well short of the green. Par three at Waterville hit 4 iron at 140 yds. I wore out 4 iron, hybrid and 3 wood hitting into par threes and fours all week. I came home to the states and found courses above the yardage we are talking about eminently more playable.
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Just a thought...using a strict yardage criteria may come into play as far as effort to walk the course, but as far as playability I think we need to consider topography and wind factors. When I was in Ireland in May, there were heaps of holes in the 400-420 variety which were unreachable due to 30-40 MPH wind conditions, playing at 6300 yards or so. For example, par four 10th hole at Tralee, caddie tells us unreachable. Par four 2nd hole at Waterville, drive and three wood, well short of the green. Par three at Waterville hit 4 iron at 140 yds. I wore out 4 iron, hybrid and 3 wood hitting into par threes and fours all week. I came home to the states and found courses above the yardage we are talking about eminently more playable.
Keith,
I guess that's why they could still hold The Irish Open at Ballybunion in 2002 at a length of 6,500 yards. But in many ways, that's the point. Showing that length isn't the be all and end all. A golf course can be great and challenging (through strategy or topography or elements) whilst still being short...
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Taconic Golf Club in Williamstown, MA. As with Rockaway and Inwood, I don't have the exact yardage in front of me, but, until I played Machrahanish (spell?), Brora and The Machrie, I thought it was the absolute best "short golf course", I had ever played - and it still might be. If the recent restoration hasn't added too much length, it is a "Must".
If not already on the list, I also nominate the West Course at Merion.
Finally, does Prestwick's Medal Tee yardage make the cut?
How about Ekwanok in Manchester, VT.
Finally, Oahu CC in Honolulu is terrific if not too long.
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JudT:
As Mason said to Dixon, "We have to draw the line someplace."
Taconic now 6808 from the tips; was < 6300 the first time I played it.
Oahu Country Club - 6041 from the back tees; EXCELLENT golf course, please add to list.
If 6650 is the real cut-off, add Rockaway Hunting Club, please.
Will have to check Ekwanok and Inwood; websites do not show the scorecard.
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"Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length."
Steve L,
Then why bother with yardage at all? It seems you already have in mind a list and are backfilling the criteria to ensure those courses fit. Anyway, many of these older courses have seen length added. On the logic, what's the difference between one course adding yardage to stretch out to 6,500 yards vs another that adds yardage to get to 6,800 yards, or even 6,900 yards? Some even have done this not to cater to floggers but rather to golfers.
Mark,
Contrary to your speculation, we didn't have any preconceived list in mind, instead wondering what it would look like and how well could such a list represent what is "charming," " interesting," "unique," and "endearing" to us. You see we were discussing so many of the other "lists" out there (including the one we contribute to) and trying very hard to segregate out the courses we think best exemplify great strategic design.....not an iota of preconception and backfilling there.
Those courses that have added significant length to their layouts miss our point hence the 6500yd #. But it was never conceived to be a hard and fast limitation. Some length seems acceptable if the intent and result was to preserve strategic lines of play from elimination due to modern equipment. In fact, we did just that (and not a yard further) at Paramount.
ChipOat,
RHC & Ekwanok, both wonderful courses, are exactly what we had in mind in our discussions. Taconic, sans it extra length, would've fit nicely as well and Merion West certainly belongs.
Ally,
You are most correct that such a feature is no basis for a list, but if our intent was to cull the fun and creative from the tough and monotonous, such features are certainly legitimate ingredients for consideration.
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It's a fine list so far and I like the 6500 yd limit. Vote to stick with it and I can't believe Pennard caved in and built "Championship Tees"...it's deservedly chucked. It's like St Enodoc which really needed a "par 5" 16th ::)
Whittington Heath would be a goodun to include but just misses at 6510.
Would Morfontaine have qualified until they capitulated like St Enodoc and stretched the par 5 12th by moving the green?
I don't think Saunton West is quite good enough. Portrush Valley is better.
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I'd also argue for keeping it to 18-hole courses. If Arble insists on the Scared Nine, I'm going to insist on Shiskine. ;)
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ChipOat,
Of your suggestions, I believe only Rockaway Hunting Club is below 6500.
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What about Teguega, Portland (Maine) Country Club, Roaring Gap, Dedham Country & Polo, Siwanoy, Carolina GC, Hyannisport Club, CC of Rochester, Muskegon CC, Sakonnet, Worcester CC, Allegheny CC, Misquimicut, Lookout Mountain & Blue Mound?
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Columbia CC in Chevy Chase MD (my home club) clocks in at 6485 yards from the tips, par 70. Home of the 1921 U.S. Open and the 2003 U.S. Junior Amateur (played from 6586 yards though). And seemingly well-liked by GCAers....
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What about Teguega, Portland (Maine) Country Club, Roaring Gap, Dedham Country & Polo, Siwanoy, Carolina GC, Hyannisport Club, CC of Rochester, Muskegon CC, Sakonnet, Worcester CC, Allegheny CC, Misquimicut, Lookout Mountain & Blue Mound?
Jud:
Blue Mounds tips out at 6,666 yds -- although I'm guessing it's right in the wheelhouse of what Ran and Steve Lapper were talking about in terms of courses with great strategic interest that don't need lengthening to still present a fun and challenging round. I'm not sure you could realistically add more than 200 yards to that course. It's pretty tight over there, and boxed in on all four sides. (It's really one of the cool things about the course -- walk a few steps off the green, and you're at the next tee. It has that cozy feel that's so unlike much of what's being built today.)
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Kawartha added above...
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Steve Lapper,
It would be interesting to know what Glen Ridge, Forest Hills and Montclair play to.
At one time I don't think any of them were 6,500
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Pat,
Looks like Glen Ridge would certainly qualify, not certain about the others.
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Flying the Aussie flag, Barwon Heads is well worth a mention.
Arguably top 20 in the country - 6371 yards.
Andrew
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Islington G and CC tips out at 6487. It is a very nice Stanley Thompson
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Bumped in honor of Ran's updated profile of Kilspindie...
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Royal Epping Forest !
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I don't know if it was mentioned, but Formby Ladies is probably not far off a Doak 5 and a great pleasure to play even if it is a bit short at 5400 yards.
Ciao
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Royal Epping Forest !
Hi Kirk,
Just to clarify, Royal Epping Forest Golf Club is a golf club that does not own a golf course. They play their golf at Chingford, a municipal golf course adjacent to their clubhouse. The course is 6,281 yards long.
Scott
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Royal Epping Forest !
Hi Kirk,
Just to clarify, Royal Epping Forest Golf Club is a golf club that does not own a golf course. They play their golf at Chingford, a municipal golf course adjacent to their clubhouse. The course is 6,281 yards long.
Scott
Have either of you played it the course? I haven't but suffice to say many locals regard it as the 3rd best course associated with the name Epping.
Nearby Chigwell at 6290 should be on the list.
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Camden CC in Camden, SC is listed at 6,450 yards (Par 70) from the back tees on the card. I suspect for tournaments involving NCAA players and the like we probably stretch some holes to the back edges of tee boxes and may in fact clip the 6,500 limit by a couple of yards on occasion.
But it's definitely an under-6,500 yard course under normal circumstances. I will say Camden is generally viewed not so much as charming, quirky or cute and but more tough, exacting and depending on hole locations even borderline "unfair" by many who have played it. Short but not easy is a combination many golfers find frustrating in the extreme.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60140.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60140.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53363.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53363.0.html)
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Have either of you played it the course? I haven't but suffice to say many locals regard it as the 3rd best course associated with the name Epping.
Nearby Chigwell at 6290 should be on the list.
Hi Tony,
Yes, I have played Chingford, but not played much else in the area to compare it with.
Scott
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Honestly, came across it by accident when I found The Battle of Epping Forest rolling around in my head. I googled it, and the golf club came up in the response. Here's their site:
http://www.refgc.co.uk/#/golf/4537563036
They didn't mention that it isn't their own course !
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Mark
The more I go back to Addy the less I like it. Though for this purpose, it works very well because its tough as old boots.
Hang on - has nobody checked the card for Saunton West? ??? I think it is 6403 (from memory- tee hee). In the interest of getting more links in there because flat bellies like a challenge
Rye
Brancaster
Swinley Forest
Sacred 9
Beau Desert
Kington
Berkshire Red
Machrie
Pulborough
White Bear Yacht
Pasatiempo (is this really less than 6500?)
Maidstone
Creek club
Eastward Ho!
Parapara...Beach
Elie
Addington
New Zealand
Worplesdon
Machrihanish
Brora
Machrie
Southerndown
St Georges
Edgbaston (tee hee)
Saunton West
Ciao
Nearly three years on
Rye
Brancaster
Swinley Forest
Sacred 9
Beau Desert
Kington
Berkshire Red
Machrie
Pulborough
White Bear Yacht
Pasatiempo
Maidstone
Creek Club
Eastward Ho!
Parapara...Beach
Elie
Addington
New Zealand
Worplesdon
Machrihanish
Brora
Machrie
Southerndown
St Georges
Saunton West
Roaring Gap
Golf de Spa
Askernish
Fraserburgh
Glen Falls
Ciao
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UNDER 6,500, so those are just too long. Yes - tips. As an Englishman I am thinking in terms of the men's medal plate, the one from which you play all significant club competitions during the season.
What a romantic notion.
Surely there's no club built in the last 30 years that plays all club competitions from the furthest back tees. "the tips".....
and sure no one thinks a course built 70-100 years ago had an architect that was a proponent of shorter courses or was smarter or more clever than current architects.
There were simply building for the equipment of the day.
Sure as a member you can competently play the "tips" on outdated courses, but don't kid yourself that you are experiencing what the architect "intended" (whatever that means)
So sad that we have allowed such gems to become less relevant today and have to experience most major events on inflated acreage architectural wastelands.
The good news is that the majority can still enjoy these intimate and interesting places for themselves, many by simply playing the back tees.
By regulating equipment properly, these members could still enjoy these courses, and such courses could still be used as competitive grounds for expert competition, as other sports do.
Palmetto, Myopia and Eastward Ho (edit-Arrowtown!) get my vote under the original premise, but having seen firsthand the way college players play Palmetto, I'd sure like to see [size=78%]the equipment altered, not the golf course.[/size]
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Myopia...6539! (buzzer noise)
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Did anybody mention The Eden?
It is hiding in plain sight.
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I obviously missed this 1st time around
Port Fairy Golf Club
5887m = about 6476yds
and Gib just pipped me to my other favourite
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Bumped in light of the announcement of the 3rd course at Sand Valley. 5 years on, the list is open for updating and further debate...(Machrie removed after lengthening)
Addington GC, Surrey UK
Arrowtown GC, New Zealand
Askernish, South Uist, Scotland
Beau Desert, Staffordshire UK
Berkshire Red, Berkshire UK
Broadstone, Dorset UK
Brora, Sutherland, Scotland
Camberly Heath, Surrey UK
Cavendish, Derbyshire UK
CC Troy, NY
Eastward Ho!, Chatham, MA
Elie, Fife, Scotland
Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Glens Falls, Queensbury, NY
Golf de Spa, Belgium
Himalayan GC, Pokhara, Nepal
Huntercombe, Oxfordshire UK
Kawartha Golf & CC, Ontario, CA
Kington, Herefordshire, UK
Knole Park, Kent UK
Leatherstockings, Cooperstown, NY
Liphook, Hampshire, UK
Machrihanish, Argyll, Scotland
Maidstone, East Hampton, NY
New Zealand GC, Surrey, UK
Old Elm, Highland Park, IL
Ootacamund Gymkhana Club, India
Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand
Parkstone, Dorset, UK
Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz, CA
Prestbury, Cheshire, UK
Royal West Norfolk, UK
Rye, East Sussex, UK
Saunton West, North Devon UK
South Bend CC, IN
Southern Pines, NC
Southerndown, Bridgend, Wales
St. George's, East Setauket, NY
Stoneham, Hampshire, UK
Swinley Forest, Birkshire, UK
Tandridge, Surrey, UK
The Creek, Locust Valley, NY
Turfvaert, Rijsbergen, Netherlands
West Sussex, UK
White Bear Yacht Club, Dellwood, MN
Worplesdon, Surrey, UK
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Not sure if a couple of these would deserve to be in the top 50, but pending 50 better courses listed...
Highland Park (Birmingham): 5800Pinehurst no. 1: 6089Pinehurst no. 3: 5155Elkridge: 6445
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These courses from the front of Volume 5 of The Confidential Guide should DEFINITELY be on the list:
Arrowtown, NZ
Himalayan, Nepal
Ootacamund, India
Maybe also RACV Healesville, Australia which is way under 6000.
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Golspie.
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Should we try to compile a list of the top 50 qualifying courses? The list could be expanded to any number of courses you fancy. We could have separate compilations for courses under 6,250 yards, 6,000 yards and maybe even under 5,750 yards.
Going back to Mark's original post, is there any competition in the "under 5750 yards" category?
Cavendish measures 5721 yards from the tips.
Where else in the world can such quality be found in such a small package? Even if it feels at least a thousand yards longer!
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These courses from the front of Volume 5 of The Confidential Guide should DEFINITELY be on the list:
Ootacamund, India
Just went looking for some details and photos. Looks a blast. Sand or mud in the bunkers? Built 1896!
atb
PS - all - might be worth checking the search engine before posting a course name. Quite a few have been nominated already.
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Paxon Hollow at 5709 from blue and white 5417 is a candidate.
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I believe there are two great candidates from the US that haven't been mentioned:
Cape Arundel by Walter Travis, at 5,859 par 69
Claremont CC by MacKenzie at 5,469 par 68
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Not top 50 material, but qualifies on yardage...
Mt Prospect Golf Club, Illinois
6305 yards
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Aberfoyle
5158 yards of interest and challenge
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Pinehurst #3 after the rerouting subsequent to the addition of The Cradle is now a fun 5155 yds.
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A sophisticated list should not be based on something as base as yardage.
The criteria should be what Ran wrote in one of his more recent pieces.
Sling your bag anytime, no conspicuous maintenance, etc. etc.
The real issue is the unintended consequence of uncovering hidden gems that because of their new found fame, alters everything that got them on the list in the first place.
Sound familiar?
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Penn State White (6300, Willie Park Jr. original design from 1920s)
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Tom's 3 courses added to updated list above. Waiting on a second for RACV. As to the arbitrary yardage cutoff, this was debated extensively above for those who care to reread the entire thread. Yes, there are courses at 6600 and 6700 yards that are really good and tons of fun, and it's understood that this wasn't Ran's original intention, but what about that course at 6750 and the one at 6800? Ultimately you end up with a bunch of courses that have already seen lots of press and a list that looks more and more like a lot of other lists. Yes, 6500 is a completely arbitrary cutoff. It's also plenty of golf for a significant majority of golfers, hence the spotlight on these gems.
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Capital City CC (Barker 1914, Tillinghast 1936) in Tallahassee, FL is 6502 from the tips and par of 72. The course has an incredibly enjoyable routing and the hills are unlike anything else in Florida. Tom rates her at a 6 on his scale noting the topography and majestic live oak trees. The club's recent trends in course conditions are continuing to accelerate in a highly desirable direction. I think she's never looked better. If anyone is passing through North Florida this Fall I would highly recommend stopping by. The club is now open to the public on weekdays and weekend afternoons and for less than $50 its an absolute steal of deal.
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Bumped in light of the announcement of the 3rd course at Sand Valley. 5 years on, the list is open for updating and further debate...(Machrie removed after lengthening)
Addington GC, Surrey UK
Arrowtown GC, New Zealand
Askernish, South Uist, Scotland
Beau Desert, Staffordshire UK
Berkshire Red, Berkshire UK
Broadstone, Dorset UK
Brora, Sutherland, Scotland
Camberly Heath, Surrey UK
Cavendish, Derbyshire UK
CC Troy, NY
Eastward Ho!, Chatham, MA
Elie, Fife, Scotland
Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Glens Falls, Queensbury, NY
Golf de Spa, Belgium
Himalayan GC, Pokhara, Nepal
Huntercombe, Oxfordshire UK
Kawartha Golf & CC, Ontario, CA
Kington, Herefordshire, UK
Knole Park, Kent UK
Leatherstockings, Cooperstown, NY
Liphook, Hampshire, UK
Machrihanish, Argyll, Scotland
Maidstone, East Hampton, NY
New Zealand GC, Surrey, UK
Old Elm, Highland Park, IL
Ootacamund Gymkhana Club, India
Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand
Parkstone, Dorset, UK
Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz, CA
Prestbury, Cheshire, UK
Royal West Norfolk, UK
Rye, East Sussex, UK
Saunton West, North Devon UK
South Bend CC, IN
Southern Pines, NC
Southerndown, Bridgend, Wales
St. George's, East Setauket, NY
Stoneham, Hampshire, UK
Swinley Forest, Birkshire, UK
Tandridge, Surrey, UK
The Creek, Locust Valley, NY
Turfvaert, Rijsbergen, Netherlands
West Sussex, UK
White Bear Yacht Club, Dellwood, MN
Worplesdon, Surrey, UK
I think Perranporth and Crail belong. I would certainly trade them against S Pines (really...or is this Ran bootlicking?) and Stoneham....even though I really like Stoneham.
Ciao
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There seems to be a relationship between the courses mentioned in this thread and many of the courses mentioned in Rans 147 Custodians thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66302.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66302.0.html)
Atb
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Great nomination of RACV Healesville by Tom. Superb set of greens, within an intriguing and fun course. Totally belongs in this discussion.