Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bob_Garvelink on July 01, 2013, 03:03:05 PM
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Michiganders,
Rumor on the street is the new owner of Forest Dunes is looking to add another 18 holes at Forest Dunes. Those who know the piece of land claim its a superior piece of land than the original. A few people have heard rumblings that Forest Dunes has already contacted Tom Doak, Mike Devries, and CC.
If Forest Dunes can pull this off they will definitely be in elite company!
Are Tom or Mike willing to comment :)
Cheers!!!
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Bob - this is the first I have heard of this. Very interesting indeed! Do you know who the current owners are?
It is a beautiful piece of property. I'm not sure where their additional acreage is, but a lot of the surrounding terrain is very sandy and scrubby - which would make for good golf assuming there is some interest in the topography.
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George,
The new owner is "Big Lou" and he supposeable made his money in the trucking industry. He recently added some on site lodging to FD and people close to the FD circle claim its a 50/50 chance they break ground next summer. I was told IF they build a new course they want it to be totally different than the original. They also don't want to have to use as much water on the new course so I'm sure the turf and greens will be different from what they currently have.
I've been told the GM and SUPER prefer Mike Devries due to his knowledge of Michigan topography. "Big Lou" prefers a household name that will bring people in and buy lots so that may give Tom Doak the edge.
If its Doak.... Lets just hope he doesn't bury dead elephants under the greens :). Just kidding Tom :)
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LOL - household name that will sell homes... you have officially arrived TD!
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If its Doak.... Lets just hope he doesn't bury dead elephants under the greens :). Just kidding Tom :)
He carves them up before he buries them, hence the ridges and other contours. No Walter Travis greens from him.
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Here's to hoping this happens. I played Forest Dunes on Saturday and the course is spectacular - really special. The land is perfect for golf. Another top notch course and it would be unbelievable.
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Heres to hoping Mike Devries gets the nod. The golfing words needs some more Mike Devries. Not to mention, it's a home game for him, too.
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Heres to hoping Mike Devries gets the nod. The golfing words needs some more Mike Devries. Not to mention, it's a home game for him, too.
Doak, C&C, DeVries: You can't go wrong with that group!
Hopefully Mike's sojourn down under doesn't eliminate him from the running for this job - although it's a good problem for him to have.
I really hope these reports are accurate. It could turn an already special golf area into something really special.
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I've been told the GM and SUPER prefer Mike Devries due to his knowledge of Michigan topography. "Big Lou" prefers a household name that will bring people in and buy lots so that may give Tom Doak the edge.
Seeing as how Tom lives up there, I'd assume he has some knowledge of the topography as well. But as others have said, I don't think you can go wrong with either one.
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Why should this be a surprise?
The new owner just invested $1.5M in building a new lodge and has visions of being a travel destination. I can't see how Forest Dunes can make a run at it without building a second course.
"Our goal is to get out-of-state golfers," said Forest Dune's GM in this article from Crain's Detroit about the lodge's opening.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20130407/NEWS/304079988/forest-dunes-course-to-open-luxury-lodge# (http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20130407/NEWS/304079988/forest-dunes-course-to-open-luxury-lodge#)
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I talked to the super about it a couple of years ago, the last time I played. The land is the sandy pines area north of 10/16/17/18 area. Land that looks awesome for a golf course.
I'm not sure a designer would sell lots. Selling lots to people from Detroit will be tough as they are hard to figure out. I played Belvedere a couple of years ago and got paired up with a member of Franklin Hills, he had never heard of Kingsley Club, had never played Crystal Downs but had just gotten back from a trip to Scotland where he had played Brora.
Its hard to say whether people will buy lots at Forest Dunes, then again, tons of people live at Garland and it is just as in the middle of nowhere as Forest Dunes and none of the courses are any good.
Nonetheless, a course from any of the 3 architects mentioned would immediately make Forest Dunes one of the top 36 hole facilities in the country.
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Rumor has it that an architect was recently on site, although I'm not at liberty to say who.
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I was told that a certain architect was playing in the member guest tourney.... Sure hope that it all comes together.....Forest Dunes is a very special place and another 18 would make it magical!
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Confirmed. Owner is close to making a decision. Not sure about architect.
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Forest Dunes is underrated and a must play for anyone visiting Michigan. Adding another "special" 18 would make this the destination resort it needs to be.
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I talked to the super about it a couple of years ago, the last time I played. The land is the sandy pines area north of 10/16/17/18 area. Land that looks awesome for a golf course.
The picture below should show the area JC is talking about for the potential new course. The 10th hole is the one with the split fairway just east of the driving range.
Lots of trees currently. However, you can tell from the land just south (where a lot of the current course's back nine plays) that there is a lot of sand under those trees!
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/ForestDunes.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/ForestDunes.jpg.html)
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Good Afternoon,
My name is Jim Bluck and I am the current super at Forest Dunes. Dan granted me permission to use his account after I had mentioned that posts have been made that have included "my opinions".
I am taking this opportunity to clear up some of the speculation, but also add some validity to some of the comments.
The possibility of a second course at FD is just that; a possibility. The owner is looking at a number of ideas that he thinks would benefit this property...and a second course is just one idea.
His name is spelled Lew and yes he is big....
The statement that I or the GM have a preference as far an an architect is inaccurate. Though Mike is a friend of mine and I would thoroughly enjoy the opportunity to work with him, all of us want a course, regardless of the designer that would appeal to the masses, versus being one influenced by one or all three of our personal preferences. Lets face it, I am fairly confident that the people who play FD don't play here because of Tom Weiskopf, they visit because it's a pleasure to play. So if its TD, MD, C/C or myself, who ever is able to produce a product that is cost friendly to maintain and appreciated by all who play it, will get the nod.
The total acreage of the property is 1320 acres and the current course sits on roughly 500. Over the past few years, (prior to Lew's ownership), much of the acreage has been logged off due to the fire danger with a predominate stand of Jack Pine but also for the health of the forest so the satellite photo is inaccurate. Sand is prevalent on this property and the exact location for this "course" has not been discussed.
In the past 6 months, we have had 2 architects out for some discussion and a site visit..without a commitment to either one.
The comments about less water is true...IF Lew decides to pull the trigger on this project, having the opportunity for our members and guests to play a totally different style of golf (firm and fast) on one property we believe is rare and would separate us from the typical resort golf stereotype. A course where the color of the turf is not part of the overall experience is something that I have literally pushed for since the day I arrived on this property. Professionally and selfishly, I sure hope the numbers work out. Who knows, maybe then I would be allowed to be a member of GCA... ;D
Thank you for your time and interest in FD
Jim
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Jim,
Thanks for the update and kudos to you and your staff. Forest Dunes is always in amazing shape and its truly one of the hidden gems of the world. We can only hope that Lew decides to go forward on the project as it would totally change the atmosphere at FD. Keep up the good work and keep us posted :)
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Any updates on this project? I'm curious if anyone can comment on the amount of play Forest received in 2013 versus previous years. The tee sheet was full last weekend.
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I'd love to see the stats--I was there the first week of May and it was pretty busy too. As was the new lodge which was a fantastic addition. A second course at FD would make visiting a lot easier to justify being somewhat local and certainly for the guys I know who make the trip up every year from Ohio...
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On my only Michigan sojourn in 2007, we had to cancel our Forest Dunes round because some d-a had to get home a day early. Bummer.
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Gents,
I have been told by a member that the rumor around Forest Dunes is that a second course will be built and that Doak will be the man for the job. If this is indeed true then FOrest Dunes will be in elite company. There is a members only meeting on Oct. 18 so we should hear more about this soon. I just hope it's true!
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There is a members only meeting on Oct. 18 so we should hear more about this soon. I just hope it's true!
Any update?
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I played Forest Dunes a few years back and it was amazing. In fact, I should have played the other courses first (Red Hawk, Gailes, and Blackshire) because none compared to FD. Maybe some of the BEST conditions and attention to detail of any course I have ever played. I don't know if building another golf course there will "help" sell lots or not. There did not appear to be a ton of houses there (I saw a lot of empty lots though) from what I can remember, unless they are tucked away from the course a bit.
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Good evening,
Jim Bluck here once again with Dan's permission......some day I will be worthy.
Last Friday evening management of Forest Dunes announced to the membership that Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf have been chosen to design an 18 hole golf course. Construction is scheduled to start once the necessary permits are obtained and the contract with Tom is finalized. The routing and design have been created and we are all very excited for the finished product. Grassing is up in the air as I am still working to convince the owner that playability and sustainability should outweigh the color green.
The main focus, though pertinent, is not about selling real estate but is more about creating a destination facility. Additional lodging is being considered in conjunction with the golf course which will offer up an attractive investment opportunity.....hint hint hint
Once again, thank you for your interest in Forest Dunes.
Jim
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Congratulations to all involved. I really enjoyed the original course and will more easily justify return trips with the additional course.
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Jim,
Thanks for the update. That's great news!!
Congrats to TD and Renaissance Golf. Who would have thought there would be a chance to work in your backyard again.
Ken
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Awesome news!!
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I played Forest Dunes as a single in mid-May 2013, spending the night in the new lodge. The course is outstanding, very much deserving of the accolades it's received. The lodge rooms are very nice and - at least at that time of year - were very reasonably priced. Despite that and the allure of a Doak designed course, I'm still stunned that the owner thinks he can make money by selling land and rounds of golf in the middle of nowhere. Maybe that's why I work for someone else! Anyway, here's what I observed during my visit:
- Dining - You can either eat all your meals at the clubhouse, which serves breakfast, lunch and dinner, or drive about 15 minutes into Roscommon. Between the two is.....literally nothing. The road leading from the golf course entrance into town is paved, but unmarked. No white or yellow lane markings and no signage. It is, even more so than Bandon, remote...without the ocean views.
- Lodging - Appealing lodging options are limited to the new lodge, which only has 14 rooms.
- Travel - The course is a three-plus hour drive from the nearest major airport in Detroit. I flew into Traverse City, about 90 minutes away, via Detroit, but it's not a major airport and doing so adds to the hassle factor.
- Other Activities - Well, there's a bowling alley at Fred's of Roscommon, where I also had a nice dinner. At least at Bandon, you can bird watch and drive the Pacific coastline.
None of these issues detracted from my experience, but one or more of them are likely to be deterrents for many. And, while I don't profess to know the economics of the golf business, I do wonder how many of these out of the way golf-only destinations us dedicated hackers can support. Brad Klein made a similar point on his recent podcast with Geoff Shackleford and - as much as I enjoyed Forest Dunes - I have to agree with him.
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I played Forest Dunes as a single in mid-May 2013, spending the night in the new lodge. The course is outstanding, very much deserving of the accolades it's received. The lodge rooms are very nice and - at least at that time of year - were very reasonably priced. Despite that and the allure of a Doak designed course, I'm still stunned that the owner thinks he can make money by selling land and rounds of golf in the middle of nowhere. Maybe that's why I work for someone else! Anyway, here's what I observed during my visit:
- Dining - You can either eat all your meals at the clubhouse, which serves breakfast, lunch and dinner, or drive about 15 minutes into Roscommon. Between the two is.....literally nothing. The road leading from the golf course entrance into town is paved, but unmarked. No white or yellow lane markings and no signage. It is, even more so than Bandon, remote...without the ocean views.
- Lodging - Appealing lodging options are limited to the new lodge, which only has 14 rooms.
- Travel - The course is a three-plus hour drive from the nearest major airport in Detroit. I flew into Traverse City, about 90 minutes away, via Detroit, but it's not a major airport and doing so adds to the hassle factor.
- Other Activities - Well, there's a bowling alley at Fred's of Roscommon, where I also had a nice dinner. At least at Bandon, you can bird watch and drive the Pacific coastline.
None of these issues detracted from my experience, but one or more of them are likely to be deterrents for many. And, while I don't profess to know the economics of the golf business, I do wonder how many of these out of the way golf-only destinations us dedicated hackers can support. Brad Klein made a similar point on his recent podcast with Geoff Shackleford and - as much as I enjoyed Forest Dunes - I have to agree with him.
These so called "issues" also have to be delt with when playing Arcadia Bluffs. AB has been going strong for nearly 15 years, where their tee sheet is nearly full all year long.
It proves if you give the public a great course, great conditions and pricing that isn't all the wall, you can be successful. Both AB and FD have graced numerous magazine covers and garnered many awards. I think that this is why Tullymore/St Ives works in Michigan as well. I also think that's why courses like High Point failed. Something in that business model was not right. It's not always about location.
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Well Arcadia Bluffs charged me $100 (I f I remember correctly at 4pm with no guarantee you will get all 18 in; we did however) greens fee to play a round there. Prior to 4pm I think it was $180. That certainly helps the Arcadia Bluffs' bottom line. I played High Pointe early in the morning that same day before heading to Aracadia Bluffs and I don't think I paid more than $40 for an 18 hole round with a cart. Add to the fact that right across the street from the former High Pointe is the Traverse City Resort with 36 holes certainly didn't help them either. Arcadia Bluffs is a "destination" (purely for golf anyway) course and High Pointe is not. Although High Pointe was an enjoyable (and memorable round) Arcadia has world class Lake Michigan views that are incredible. I will most certainly play the new course at Forest Dunes but it will be an "on my way" course not so much a destination.
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Great news. Now I have no excuse for not getting up there. Richard- Imagine this golf trip: Arcadia, Crystal, Kingsley, Black Forest, Forest Dunes x2, Belvedere. All within driving distance of what, 20mm people? Pure Michigan!
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Great News!
Congrats Tom!
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The addition of a second course by Renaissance Golf will almost certainly attract a lot more attention to this already idyllic golf getaway. I loved Forest Dunes from the moment we arrived and count the couple of days and nights spent there as one of my all-time favorite golf trips.
I'd also add that some of the information Andy provide above isn't entirely accurate. I talked to someone there at Forest Dunes today who confirmed that they will continue to offer Stay & Play packages with lodging options in both the 16 - room Lodge as well as the 6 cottages on the property. On our visit, we stayed in one of the lake front cottages, which was awesome. You keep your cart for the duration of your stay and can safely 'drive' home under the stars after a night at the clubhouse. Pure Michigan is right.
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Bob,
Thanks for the thread that brought this to our attention.
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Best of luck to all involved and who intend to play. Memory is a bit spotty but if it serves, a group looked at buying Forest Dunes not quite a decade ago and determined, at that time, the location was too remote. Now, to be fair, they were interested in a strictly private club and while they loved FD, their “demographics” people said it was too remote, and put the kibosh on the deal. So while the group was in the area, they decided to drive around Northern Michigan looking at other courses and land and found a course that was struggling (think early to mid-2000’s) and worked out a deal with the owners to become involved. It was at that time that this course/club went from a golf only private course to being marketed as “The most Exclusive Gated Golf Community in the Midwest”, complete with weekly ads in the Wall Street Journal, etc.
It didn’t turn out so well, though the course was recently purchased by members and is operational. Wish them luck as well.
Lochenheath??
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Best of luck to all involved and who intend to play. Memory is a bit spotty but if it serves, a group looked at buying Forest Dunes not quite a decade ago and determined, at that time, the location was too remote. Now, to be fair, they were interested in a strictly private club and while they loved FD, their “demographics” people said it was too remote, and put the kibosh on the deal. So while the group was in the area, they decided to drive around Northern Michigan looking at other courses and land and found a course that was struggling (think early to mid-2000’s) and worked out a deal with the owners to become involved. It was at that time that this course/club went from a golf only private course to being marketed as “The most Exclusive Gated Golf Community in the Midwest”, complete with weekly ads in the Wall Street Journal, etc.
It didn’t turn out so well, though the course was recently purchased by members and is operational. Wish them luck as well.
Lochenheath??
That was my thought as well. I played it a few years ago when I was in Glen Arbor for a week.
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Gents,
This will put Forest Dunes into elite company! What people outside Michigan don't understand is FD is right off I-75 which is right on the way to Gaylord or Petoskey. Although it is a bit off the been path it still gets plenty of play. Try and get a tee time during prime time and you will see what I'm talking about. Many groups who typically take their groups to Boyne, Treetops, Garland, Shanty Creek, etc will now move their trips to Forest Dunes. The only thing FD was lacking was another course and I have no doubt that this will end up paying huge dividends. Great Job FD and there is no better place in the World to golf than Northern Michigan. Yes I'm a homer and damn proud of it!
Cheers!
Bob
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Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course?
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Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course?
I am sure that most on this site will assume this will be the case just because TD is involved. And it may be, but it's public opinion. Regardless, this is great news for FD. Don't think for a second that Jim Bluck won't have both courses in flawless conditions. That's one Supt that can dial it in!
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I recommend Forest Dunes to anyone traveling to Northern Michigan. It is a worthy destination right now. Anthony is correct, FD is one of the best conditioned courses I have ever played.
The bar is set high for the next course!
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Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course?
Safe bet. He's already done it twice when building a second course.
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Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course?
I sure hope so. My Friday drive up to Petoskey may be changed forever!
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Trumping the existing course is going to be tough to do, but if anyone can do it, it's Tom. My future trips to northern MI are forever changed for the positive!
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Can anyone in the know tell us more about the site for the new course?
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See 18:55 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBajokL4BdQ&feature=youtu.be
Ryan
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Not sure why this is public knowledge, but a good homer case could be made for either of them, even if #2 could probably use the work and the press more than #1 at this point in his career. Either way, I'm fairly confident that the client will get a special product. I have a buddy who's a strong player who has an annual trip to FD with a bunch of guys. The prospect of 2 special courses should put this place permanently on the map, doubters notwithstanding.
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This is amazing news for anyone that golfs in Michigan... which appears to be a lot of us. This will be an annual destination for me for sure.
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Glad to hear that the second course at Forest Dunes is moving forward. I'm a big fan of the Weiskopf course ad I look forward to seeing what Tom has planned.
It's a treat to first learn about the news here on GCA. However, as a PR pro, I'm also dumbfounded by FD's decision to not make a bigger announcement of the news. Instead, they have simply a post here and burried in the video posted above. Of course, they have time before the course gets local approvals but if it's a real estate play, there's no reason to wait before they sell some lots.
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Glad to hear that the second course at Forest Dunes is moving forward. I'm a big fan of the Weiskopf course ad I look forward to seeing what Tom has planned.
It's a treat to first learn about the news here on GCA. However, as a PR pro, I'm also dumbfounded by FD's decision to not make a bigger announcement of the news. Instead, they have simply a post here and burried in the video posted above. Of course, they have time before the course gets local approvals but if it's a real estate play, there's no reason to wait before they sell some lots.
Howard:
I think that they are waiting (and I am waiting) to say anything about the course because they don't have permits in hand, and we haven't even finalized the design contract yet. They did not intend Golf Club Atlas to be their big announcement ... they were just trying to let their members know what they are planning before the end of the season, and Bob Garvelink posted about it here, causing them to feel the need to respond.
You can't sell lots before you plat them, and you can't plat them before the plan is final, and you can't finalize the plan before you sign the contract. And I was committed to be in Europe when their member meeting was scheduled.
Don't worry, we will get our p.r. act together before the course is ready to open. There's plenty of time for that; the best case is it's ready in the late summer of 2015, but that's assuming the permits don't take any time. However, the p.r. challenge is going to be interesting on a number of levels, because they've bought into my view that we do NOT want too many details of the design leaking out until the course is ready, so that early visitors can explore it for the first time with fresh eyes.
All I can tell you for now is that the intent is to do something really different than what we've been building lately. The property is fairly flat, and sandy, but we intend to keep the bunkering subdued instead of relying on the bunkers for visual interest. We won't move much dirt, but what we do move will be to make some really abrupt features -- deep gullies and mounds and ridges. And the course is probably going to be on the short side, by choice, since the original course is plenty long and we don't feel the need to compete on "resistance to scoring".
Apart from that, I can only tell you that I am particularly excited to be working close to home again for the first time in ages, and that I intend to spend more time on site at Forest Dunes than anything I've worked on in years. I'm really excited that the client, Lew Thompson, has bought into the ideas I've been thinking about for the past few years, and is giving me a chance to bring them to life. And I also want to thank my friends Norm Sinclair and Nick Ficorelli for coming to the Michigan Golf Hall of Fame induction this summer, listening to me say that I wanted to slow down and spend more time on fewer projects closer to home, and promptly mention that to the g.m. at Forest Dunes the next day when he mentioned the possibility of building a second golf course.
For more than that, you'll probably have to wait until I've got a few holes built.
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Tom
Can't wait to hear more, and see it!
If anyone has earned a "home game" these days, it's you.
Have you picked the primary design associate?
I hope they were, or will be, wise enough to pick Mahaffey to do the irrigation. You guys make a formidable team!
Congrats!
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Don't worry, we will get our p.r. act together before the course is ready to open. There's plenty of time for that; the best case is it's ready in the late summer of 2015, but that's assuming the permits don't take any time. However, the p.r. challenge is going to be interesting on a number of levels, because they've bought into my view that we do NOT want too many details of the design leaking out until the course is ready, so that early visitors can explore it for the first time with fresh eyes.
Thanks for putting my worries to rest. Interesting approach that's refreshing in this day and age.
Already looking forward to the 2016 Midwest Mashie.
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Tom, I love those holes farthest out on the back nine. They have a lot of the low key feeling I love about the heathland courses south of London. It would be cool to see a course with the inspiration of Sunningdale and Walton Heath.
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Sad to read this today regarding the 2nd 18 at Forest Dunes:
"That project has officially been stalled, and Doak is understandably frustrated."
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/updates-kohler-sand-valley-bandonstreamsong-14472.htm
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Yeah,
A bummer. But the big news here potentially is the LIDO!!!!
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Yeah,
A bummer. But the big news here potentially is the LIDO!!!!
I hope this Lido news come to fruition!
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Tom Doak says: The property is fairly flat, and sandy, but we intend to keep the bunkering subdued instead of relying on the bunkers for visual interest. We won't move much dirt, but what we do move will be to make some really abrupt features -- deep gullies and mounds and ridges. And the course is probably going to be on the short side, by choice, since the original course is plenty long and we don't feel the need to compete on "resistance to scoring".
Sounds like Huntercombe to me! ;)
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Well this just ruined my day. I'm guessing the revenue simply wasn't there for Forest Dunes to move forward and I think an additional 18 holes produced by Doak would of been something that would of brought the masses. With that being said its to bad Doak was hung out to dry and hopefully someday he is able to create an additional course at Forest Dunes.
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I don't know where Matty G gets his information [it seems like he might have gotten this directly from Mike Keiser], but he really should call me before he characterizes my reaction, and to check his facts.
The Forest Dunes course has been put on hold for the time being. The hold doesn't have anything to do with finances ... the client has had some other issues that have made him more cautious about moving forward.
We are certainly disappointed, since we were looking forward to a home game this summer, and it's unclear whether we'll have any new courses to build this fall, once our projects in New Zealand and France are complete. But, I've been itching for a sabbatical for a while, and I guess you need to be careful what you wish for. Maybe I will just go on a book tour. :)
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Forest Dunes Facebook page posted pictures of Matt Ginella on the property this past Monday. A few of the shots picture Matt on what appears to be a cleared away patch of land.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152148263470592.1073741852.284468800591&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152148263470592.1073741852.284468800591&type=1)
Does this mean anything for the new course?
I spent a long weekend on the property with 15 friends at the beginning of the month. What a spectacular course and facility!
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A bunch of clearing was done for the course late last fall. But, no news on when we might get started building anything.
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Good morning,
I saw this posted on the internet this morning along with the word that construction on the Doak Course is moving forward at Forest Dunes. I know there has been quite a bit back and forth on the status of this project - does anyone have definitive word on where they stand? I don't remember having previously seen a routing, but I did a quick search and couldn't find anything - I apologize for the poor quality of the image, but it is the best I could find...
Any updates would be appreciated, certainly exciting to see this project get moving again, if in fact that is the case...
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Is that a course that can be played in either direction? Sure looks like it ...
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Chris:
I signed a contract on Friday to build the second course at Forest Dunes, and was there to announce it to their members at the annual member-guest tournament.
We are supposed to work on a press release this week to try and describe the project. We hope to start a bit of shaping in September or October, after the first few holes are cleaned up from clearing, and after our other work is finished at St. George's in Toronto and in New Zealand.
It's funny, in discussing things with the ownership on Friday, we all agreed that we should keep the plan of the course out of the public eye for a while ... so I would ask you to please delete that map for now.
Matthew:
Yes, it's a course that can be played in either direction. But it probably won't look too much like the map, so I don't want people trying to analyze it and tell me that such-and-such hole won't work. It's a complicated concept and it will require a lot of field work to make it work equally well from both directions.
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Chris:
I signed a contract on Friday to build the second course at Forest Dunes, and was there to announce it to their members at the annual member-guest tournament.
We are supposed to work on a press release this week to try and describe the project. We hope to start a bit of shaping in September or October, after the first few holes are cleaned up from clearing, and after our other work is finished at St. George's in Toronto and in New Zealand.
It's funny, in discussing things with the ownership on Friday, we all agreed that we should keep the plan of the course out of the public eye for a while ... I guess that wasn't communicated properly to whoever is running their Facebook page. :) I would ask you to please delete that map while I get them to take it down.
Matthew:
Yes, it's a course that can be played in either direction. But it probably won't look too much like the map, so I don't want people trying to analyze it and tell me that such-and-such hole won't work. It's a complicated concept and it will require a lot of field work to make it work equally well from both directions.
Thanks for the update Tom and congratulations on the fact that the project is moving forward. And sorry about posting the routing (it has been deleted), I assumed it was for public consumption...
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Congratulations on the new project, Tom. A chance to build a course close to home, after three consecutive international projects. That must feel good.
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Congratulations! I really enjoyed Tom Weiskopf's course a few years ago. The second course, this time by Tom Doak, should turn Forest Dunes into a primary destination rather than a "I hope I can squeeze it in." I've heard the on site lodging is very nice.
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This is great news. Northern Michigan might just be the best place for a northern hemisphere golfer to summer this side of Fife. Gotta love the concept too. 2 courses for the price of 1. Might be the way forward for the game, not to mention the best thing to happen to armchair architects since the advent of the personal computer...
P.S. gotta love that commute too Tom... :-*
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Congrats to Forest Dunes and Tom Doak ;D
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Great news, Tom! This will make FD a top destination. Looking forward to following your progress. All the best!!!
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Marvelous news, yet another reason to go up to the peninsula more often.
Those fortunate enough to be mebers at Kingsley have to be excited about another wondeful venue to play nearby .
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Great news! It will be exciting to monitor progress throughout '14, '15 and '16.
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wonderful news. Well deserved
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This is great. I need to get up to FD this year so I can say I played it before the new course was added. ha.
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Forest Dunes was definitely one of the best courses I have ever played, but because it is in the middle of no where, I don't know that I would design any Michigan trip around it. Now I could see doing a 2 round 1 night overnight there on the way to another destination or even on the way back. Congrats Tom, exciting news for sure!
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You're definitely not an idiot for going to Forest Dunes, well worth the trip. That is a ton of driving though! Enjoy that haul from Arcadia to Jackson ;-)
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Great to see the concept of a reversible course being used in NA, and especially by TD.
Interesting to see that Tom has warmed up to the concept of reversibility since we last discussed it here on GCA in 2012:
it's not inevitable that playing the course in one direction has to be better than the other. But, if they're really equal, it is most likely because you compromised somewhere ... letting one of the best holes be played backwards on the "forward" course so that the forward course wouldn't be clearly superior. So, if you are trying to make the course as great as it can be, it's hard to take this approach ... it's really only for somewhere that you can't try to make a high-ranked course. A nine-hole project seems like an excellent place to try it.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53521.0.html
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53521.0.html)
With construction starting on the 9 holes reversible course Ullerberg begin of 2015 we might see two reversible courses opening in 2016, quite unique!
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Great to see the concept of a reversible course being used in NA, and especially by TD.
Interesting to see that Tom has warmed up to the concept of reversibility since we last discussed it here on GCA in 2012:
it's not inevitable that playing the course in one direction has to be better than the other. But, if they're really equal, it is most likely because you compromised somewhere ... letting one of the best holes be played backwards on the "forward" course so that the forward course wouldn't be clearly superior. So, if you are trying to make the course as great as it can be, it's hard to take this approach ... it's really only for somewhere that you can't try to make a high-ranked course. A nine-hole project seems like an excellent place to try it.
Frank:
I have been kicking the idea around for 25-30 years, ever since I read the appendix to Tom Simpson's book.
As I said before, the issue was always to find the right site [relatively flat and sandy], and the right client [not overly focused on making the "best" possible course]. When we worked on The Sheep Ranch, our client Mr. Friedman kept asking what would be the "ideal" routing, when to my view, sorting out an ideal routing would limit the possibilities there.
At Forest Dunes, the goal is to get people to stay there and play multiple rounds. Most people see a ranked course as the means to that end -- they already have one -- but we are trying a different avenue. It may well preclude the possibility of getting the course ranked -- how would GOLF DIGEST panelists break down the Shot Values? Plus we'll get low points in Memorability because it will be difficult to remember the clockwise routing from the counter-clockwise. Nevertheless, I am excited to build a project I've spent many years doodling on.
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Tom,
Cool, good to see you have gotten to the point where you can afford to get away from rankings and follow your heart!
Interesting to see that Simpson's appendix did exactly the same to me, other than that you beat me to it by some 15-20 years :)
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Great to see the concept of a reversible course being used in NA, and especially by TD.
Interesting to see that Tom has warmed up to the concept of reversibility since we last discussed it here on GCA in 2012:
it's not inevitable that playing the course in one direction has to be better than the other. But, if they're really equal, it is most likely because you compromised somewhere ... letting one of the best holes be played backwards on the "forward" course so that the forward course wouldn't be clearly superior. So, if you are trying to make the course as great as it can be, it's hard to take this approach ... it's really only for somewhere that you can't try to make a high-ranked course. A nine-hole project seems like an excellent place to try it.
Tom,
I beg to differ. I the holes are really GOOD, people will remember them, no matter the routing on that particular day!
Frank:
I have been kicking the idea around for 25-30 years, ever since I read the appendix to Tom Simpson's book.
As I said before, the issue was always to find the right site [relatively flat and sandy], and the right client [not overly focused on making the "best" possible course]. When we worked on The Sheep Ranch, our client Mr. Friedman kept asking what would be the "ideal" routing, when to my view, sorting out an ideal routing would limit the possibilities there.
At Forest Dunes, the goal is to get people to stay there and play multiple rounds. Most people see a ranked course as the means to that end -- they already have one -- but we are trying a different avenue. It may well preclude the possibility of getting the course ranked -- how would GOLF DIGEST panelists break down the Shot Values? Plus we'll get low points in Memorability because it will be difficult to remember the clockwise routing from the counter-clockwise. Nevertheless, I am excited to build a project I've spent many years doodling on.
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At Forest Dunes, the goal is to get people to stay there and play multiple rounds. Most people see a ranked course as the means to that end -- they already have one -- but we are trying a different avenue. It may well preclude the possibility of getting the course ranked -- how would GOLF DIGEST panelists break down the Shot Values? Plus we'll get low points in Memorability because it will be difficult to remember the clockwise routing from the counter-clockwise. Nevertheless, I am excited to build a project I've spent many years doodling on.
The answer is for the golf mags to treat the course as two separate courses. Rank both of them. I think most of the various issues sort themselves out. Even the greens should appear different, since players will approach them from totally different angles/directions.
Tom, will this concept affect the way you design the greens?
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The answer is for the golf mags to treat the course as two separate courses.
I suppose that's what GOLF DIGEST will do, because they're narrow thinkers. I would disagree with that approach. When they rate other courses, is not a big part of the ranking how the course varies from one day to the next? To just ignore the fact that the course is reversible misses the whole point. So, hopefully different magazines will have different answers to that question ... but, as I said earlier, we can't count on rankings here.
Certainly, the greens will be somewhat different than the normal course, though there are many styles of greens that still work when approached from different angles. Crowned greens work. Fallaway greens work fine backwards. Greens tilted to one side work. Greens with sideways tiers work. Greens with internal contours work. And it will be cool to have a hole or two where the green is long and skinny from one angle, but wide and shallow when approach from 90 degrees on the reverse routing [there are a few corners like that].
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Tom,
To me, it seems like designing a reversible course would be the pinnacle of design. Do you look at it like that? To make the land and course work so that it's a fun, challenging and interesting course in both directions just seems like an immense challenge and one I'm sure you (and Frank) are looking forward to tackling.
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Tom,
To me, it seems like designing a reversible course would be the pinnacle of design. Do you look at it like that? To make the land and course work so that it's a fun, challenging and interesting course in both directions just seems like an immense challenge and one I'm sure you (and Frank) are looking forward to tackling.
I don't think there is a pinnacle of design. But as I said, it's a challenge I've thought about for a long time, and I look forward to tackling it now that we have a client who's on board.
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As a GD panelist, I would think it be even more memorable to be able to play it in reverse. Just a thought.
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8) was at FD 2 weeks ago and saw the fairway clearing along the entrance road with trees piled, and a small dozer in waiting.. folks were very tight-lipped about plans, other than owner was there for a week..
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/FORESTDUNESGLANCEOFTREECLEARING_zpsf0a3a83b.jpeg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/FORESTDUNESTRACTORINWAITING_zpsc60f8045.jpeg)
FD a pleasure anytime and only a little bit out in nowhere first time you go there.. then its a short ride from Grayling!