Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on June 25, 2013, 05:09:19 PM

Title: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR
Post by: Sean_A on June 25, 2013, 05:09:19 PM
This thread includes tours of Montrose Medal, Trump International, Royal Aberdeen, Carnoustie Burnside & Cruden Bay.

Taking on Angus & Grampian from a random perspective, we first visit the Montrose 1562 Course.  Claiming ancestry back to 1562, during the reign of Mary Queen of Scots, Montrose is the 5th oldest golf course site in the world.  While parts of the course are over 350 years old, much of the current design is attributable to HS Colt likely with tidbits of Willie Park Jr. and Old Tom Morris somewhere in the mix. Incidentally, a famous son of Montrose, Alex Finlay, known as The Father of American Golf, was one of the most prolific architects working on either side of the Atlantic during the early years of the 20th century.   

The tight knit layout runs admirably over the most humpty- bumpty section of the links.  The terrain of many holes is reminiscent of The Old Course.  While TOC and the town’s handsome main street are well known for their width, the 1562 can be quite snug at times.  The punishing rough and many diagonal drives may soon lead one to discover this course cannot be taken lightly. Two Scottish Professional Championships, a Scottish Amateur Championship and twice selected for Final Open Qualifying are proof of its ability to provide a challenge.   

The first is rather straight-forward except for being the first!  Threatened by coastal erosion, the second is the first of many holes on which a diagonal tee shot is featured. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/174_zpse6ae2f0a.jpg?t=1372180452) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/174_zpse6ae2f0a.jpg?t=1372180452)

I wonder if CBM ever saw the 3rd as a Short?  The green is huge!
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/176_zps2d6e5472.jpg?t=1372180464) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/176_zps2d6e5472.jpg?t=1372180464)

After a diagonal tee shot similar to the 2nd, the approach to the 4th rolls over typical Montrose terrain.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/178_zps2c8669c4.jpg?t=1372180491) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/178_zps2c8669c4.jpg?t=1372180491)

The 5th is a short two-shotter with hidden bunkers between golfer and green.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/179_zps2a8cf1b6.jpg?t=1372180497) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/179_zps2a8cf1b6.jpg?t=1372180497)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/181_zps13e8de8b.jpg?t=1372180503) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/181_zps13e8de8b.jpg?t=1372180503)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/182_zpsc1589096.jpg?t=1372180594) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/182_zpsc1589096.jpg?t=1372180594)

More interesting terrain, yet somehow the course is lacking that punch its near neighbour Carnoustie Burnside provided in spades.   
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/183_zpsa0a9f35e.jpg?t=1372180605) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/183_zpsa0a9f35e.jpg?t=1372180605)

The shape of the 7th bends away from the sea.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/186_zps8cc70aed.jpg?t=1372180634) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/186_zps8cc70aed.jpg?t=1372180634)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose
Post by: Sean_A on June 26, 2013, 03:28:17 AM
The short two-shotter 8th offers the first view of the iconic church spire which is in the centre of the burgh. The motif of OOB down the right continues, but the fairway is ample. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/188_zpsd68f0971.jpg?t=1372180657) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/188_zpsd68f0971.jpg?t=1372180657)

Considering the terrific movement displayed on the fairways, with a few exceptions, the greens are disappointingly flat.   
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/190_zps2dca6001.jpg?t=1372180698) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/190_zps2dca6001.jpg?t=1372180698)

The 9th is a 120 yard longer version of the 8th.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/191_zps985958ae.jpg?t=1372180707) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/191_zps985958ae.jpg?t=1372180707) 

The first straight hole since #1, the 10th is perhaps a bit too straightforward. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/194_zpsd77e24aa.jpg?t=1372180741) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/194_zpsd77e24aa.jpg?t=1372180741)

The long 11th plays over and between the whins.  One gets the impression there is more open area to the right, but that isn't really the case.   
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/196_zpsae944745.jpg?t=1372180757) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/196_zpsae944745.jpg?t=1372180757)

Taken from well beyond the driving area - more lovely terrain. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/197_zpsbbd74c2b.jpg?t=1372180766) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/197_zpsbbd74c2b.jpg?t=1372180766)

It is a pity there are not more than three short holes for the set is the highlight of the course. Although not readily apparent, like the other par 3s, the 12th green is huge.  The bunkering too is a bit more meaningful than seen previously.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/198_zpsd9776a62.jpg?t=1372180776) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/198_zpsd9776a62.jpg?t=1372180776) 

Yet another legger, #13 is a short par 4; probably just out of reach for the run of the mill good single digit marker.  Although, one may be long enough to sneak up the left wing and perhaps take the front bunkers out of play. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/199_zps59a88d77.jpg?t=1372180786) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/199_zps59a88d77.jpg?t=1372180786) 

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/200_zps4350cdb7.jpg?t=1372180798) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/200_zps4350cdb7.jpg?t=1372180798) 

More to follow.
 
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on June 26, 2013, 04:51:18 AM
Considering I grew up 40 miles up the road, I’m sorry to say I’ve never made it to Montrose and wish I had… Love the look of these pictures…

I think Hawtree have done some bunker repositioning there over the last few years. As well as realigning the 2nd hole due to the erosion.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose
Post by: Niall C on June 26, 2013, 02:02:06 PM
Sean

Thank you for the photo tour. Was Montrose not the course where Colt redesigned 4 or 5 of the holes to take in some dunes but after finding it too difficult to make it work the club largely reverted to what they had before ? I may be getting confused with Monifieth or Arbroath but don't think so.

Either way I have a standing invite from someone I know who is a member to get a game there. Your photos have just reminded me to get that organised.

Niall
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose
Post by: Thomas Dai on June 26, 2013, 02:36:22 PM
Thank you for this report and photos Sean.

The Championship course at Montrose is a really pleasant course to play, not quite in the league of the other East Coast 'big boys' but still thoroughly enjoyable. There is also a second 18-hole course at the same location, a lessor, shorter course. I can't remember it's name but it was perfectly acceptable to play.

Some holes on the Championship course that immediately come to mind are the par-4 2nd, which has probably, to use Seans phrase, the most humpty-bumpty fairway I ever recall playing, and the par-3 3rd. The chasm in front of the green shown in Seans photo, is probably 15-20 ft deep and has severely sloped sides. There is also a similar chasm across the back of the green, which is thus very plateau like. There's also a very long par-3 near the end of the round, the 16th maybe, which I recall being quite awkward to score well on. Nice to see some of the gorse blooming.

Neill mentions Arbroath, just a few miles south along the coast. Arbroath, or Elliott, as it's sometimes called, is a James Braid design bounded closely on the seashore side by the main Dundee-Aberdeen railway line. It is another thoroughly nice links to play, normally extremely firm and fast and bouncy, although not as good a course as the Championship course at Montrose.

Looking forward to seeing the photos of the last few holes.

All the best.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on June 26, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
I look forward to the rest of the tour.


Niall AS far as I could see the dunes have al been incorporated into the course, there is less interest once you come down from them.


Anyone know who is responsible for the green on 16?  It's a belter of a Par 3.  I can best describe the green shape as being like the container for a microwave meal, with a sauce and a rice portion plaed sideways!    The routing in the Steel  book shows 3 bunkers in front of it and I think they are now gone.  Its the standout green with big contours in marked contrast to the rest, so it makes me think it's by someone else. Someone with a wicked sense of humour.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose
Post by: David Harshbarger on June 26, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
Sean, those first few holes are gobsmacking, though later it seems the steam runs out.  Yet again, though, here in the states left feeling that as far as our run of the mill courses ago we've been saddled with an inferior bean.

The diaganol tee shot is just a winner IMHO if not overdone in the course of a round. Even if you don't want to think, you have to think.

Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose & Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on June 27, 2013, 03:24:17 AM
The routing forms a squat T.  We are now at the bottom of the stem where the terrain is flat.  Ready for the run home, no surprise, #14 is another dogleg, but to an interesting plateau green. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/201_zpsfbec8caf.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/201_zpsfbec8caf.jpg)

The last of two par 5s, the second shot on #15 is one of the more compelling on the course. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/203_zpsa06b77d5.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/203_zpsa06b77d5.jpg)

Perhaps the best hole on the course and maybe the best par 3 of the trip, the sixteenth is 226 yards long, but on the day it played far shorter.  One needs to carry broken ground about 30 yards shy of the green and let the terrain do the rest. I think the green area is the where OTM's famous Gulley hole was located.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/204_zps4a41f527.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/204_zps4a41f527.jpg)

The narrow seventeenth plays over more admirable terrain to a long shelf green. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/205_zps6b9215cb.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/205_zps6b9215cb.jpg)

With terrain like this, why is the green raised?  It seems to me it would be more interesting to use this terrain with a green at the same height as the fairway.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/206_zpsff43dc4b.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/206_zpsff43dc4b.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/207_zpsc594fca2.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/207_zpsc594fca2.jpg)

The last is straight forward.  One feature which I really like is the forward centre bunker.  Most of the course is not imaginatively bunkered and this is a welcome diversion to the usual patterns. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/210_zps6caa1402.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Montrose%20Medal%20Course/210_zps6caa1402.jpg)

So ends the first leg of the tour.  To be fair, Montrose was always going to struggle to impress after seeing a cache of wonderful courses.  I can't help think a much better design could be had from what is essentially ideal terrain.  The greens are for the most part terribly uninteresting and to add insult to injury, they were incredibly slow.  Montrose, while pleasant enough, will not make many highlight reels.  Regardless, the erosion damage caused in the past few decades is disconcerting. It seems all but certain that the course as it currently exists will not have long for this earth.  See video below.

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/787302/video-angus-golf-course-fairway-turns-into-worlds-biggest-bunker-during-biblical-storms/ (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/787302/video-angus-golf-course-fairway-turns-into-worlds-biggest-bunker-during-biblical-storms/)
 
2013

Onto to TRUMP INTERNATIONAL.

I wasn't sure what to make of this development, after playing the course I still don't.  Driving north from Aberdeen along the A90 one is eventually greeted by a huge sign proclaiming the existence of Trump International.  By contrast, Royal Aberdeen doesn't have a sign indicating the club even exists.  I spose after nearly 200 years there isn't much need to proclaim anything.  I gather much of the grounds one drives through leading to the course will eventually be houses and a hotel.  As to be expected, there is ample practice facilities and the temporary clubhouse is quite comfortable.  While having lunch, not much of the course is revealed.  Instead, we see golfers and caddies walking back and forth.  Indeed, there seems to be preponderance of staff constantly buzzing about.  I suspect that eventually a permanent clubhouse will be built above the practice green, 1st tee and 9th green.  So far the impression is quite corporate and busy.  I couldn't wait for a bit of peace and quiet on the course. 

No worries, there is plenty of solitude to be had as with a few exceptions, each hole is more or less a secluded property.  We did get the odd meet and greet with other golfers, but at no time does one feel crowded or rushed.  The course has two loops of nine.  The front holes head south then north.  The routing for the back nine is a bit more interesting as it weaves into a figure 8 and features the 13th, the only hole playing toward the sea.  It is easy to see why Trump coveted this property, it is stunning. 

The opening hole is a par 5 which plays longer than the card suggests.  The green, as is the case throughout, is very interesting.   
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1954/43132967410_8e4ff58e8b_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1954/43132967410_8e4ff58e8b_b.jpg)

As hoped, there is water in play on the course and to good effect on the medium length par 4 second. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1951/43132965720_84208c41d1_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1951/43132965720_84208c41d1_b.jpg)

The picture post card 3rd is more than merely pretty, it is a very good par 3 without being overly difficult. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1943/30008658367_571ab1bb79_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1943/30008658367_571ab1bb79_b.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1944/30008659847_b14d8d3aa1_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1944/30008659847_b14d8d3aa1_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose done, onto Trump International
Post by: Britt Rife on June 27, 2013, 11:12:36 AM
Mr. Arble,  Thanks very much for doing the Montrose tour.  I played there on my first trip to Scotland and liked it very much, though I could only recall a few holes (2, 3, 17 and 18, the last of which perhaps only because my far-overclubbed approach shot slammed into the fence beyond the green on the fly).  But I notice I continue to talk about the course a lot, using it as a reference point, even though, on a hole-by-hole basis, it was not nearly the most memorable course of the trip.  I think the humpy bumpy terrain and the general atmosphere held me in thrall.   

My trip to East Lothian earlier this month failed to produce a course with as much fun terrain as Montrose, though on a hole-by-hole basis, many of the courses were more memorable.

 I suppose I just like Montrose taken as a whole.  I hear people voice similar sentiments about courses such as Pinehurst no. 2.

Funny to me that you back up the Montrose tour with Trump's course.  I recall as I was driving from Montrose up to Cruden Bay on that trip that I pointed out a stretch of land that I told my passenger "would be perfect for a new course".  I later found out that it was the site on which Trump would build.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose done, onto Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on June 27, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
One of the interesting things about the third at Trump is the variety of tees. It is a very different, and much harder, hole from the tees on the right hand dune, away from where Sean has taken his first picture.

I liked the second, I think it is a sound strategic hole, especially when the pin is behind the front right bunker - can you clear the burn down the left side with your tee shot for the best line in; if not, how far up the right should you go? I also like the fact that there's a hidden hollow behind the bunker, it makes the approach over it more interesting than a straightforward carry.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose
Post by: Niall C on June 27, 2013, 02:09:46 PM
I look forward to the rest of the tour.


Niall AS far as I could see the dunes have al been incorporated into the course, there is less interest once you come down from them.


Anyone know who is responsible for the green on 16?  It's a belter of a Par 3.  I can best describe the green shape as being like the container for a microwave meal, with a sauce and a rice portion plaed sideways!    The routing in the Steel  book shows 3 bunkers in front of it and I think they are now gone.  Its the standout green with big contours in marked contrast to the rest, so it makes me think it's by someone else. Someone with a wicked sense of humour.

Tony

The more I think about it, the more I think it was Arbroath I was thinking about. I'll need to check or it's going to annoy me.

Niall
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on June 28, 2013, 04:23:33 AM
Britt

The problem I have with Montrose is the man-made elements don't nearly live up to what can only be called an outstanding site. 

Niall

I agree with Spangles, given the property boundaries, the dunes are incorporated into the design.  I didn't see much duneland on the second course.

Adam

I notice you didn't single out the 1st for comment.  Do you think the 5s are lacking? 

TRUMP INTERNATIONAL TOUR CONTINUED

The second par 5 follows the pattern of all the long holes, uphill and plays longer than yardage indicates.  In fact, most holes have an uphill approach.  One reason for this are the many elevated tees.  I can fully understand wanting to showcase the views, but perhaps the concept was taken too far and as a consequence variety was sacrificed.  To compound the issue, bunkering and or the very consistent use of swales at the front and sides of greens made the option of the ground game very difficult to achieve successfully.  Effectively, Hawtree created a ton of plateau greens which are designed for aerial approaching.  The player who hits a flat ball or doesn't have a long carry is at a huge disadvantage.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1977/43132967240_072cd2b85e_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1977/43132967240_072cd2b85e_b.jpg)

An aspect of the design I very much appreciated is the pair of short 4s.  The 5th is the first of the two and features a gathering centreline pot bunker.  In this instance, the hilltop tee works very well because it contributes to the temptation factor to unnecessarily take on the bunker.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1967/43132967100_5a9c02041b_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1967/43132967100_5a9c02041b_b.jpg)

A look at the green from the 6th tee.  Without exception, the greens are interesting, fun and challenging; one of the very best sets I have experienced in GB&I.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1942/30008659637_c1d33f210b_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1942/30008659637_c1d33f210b_b.jpg)

Another fine par 3, the 6th.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1975/30008658407_0a27435b12_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1975/30008658407_0a27435b12_b.jpg)

The excellent golf continues with the 7th; very drivable and very dangerous.  The green complex is excellent, but like Cruden Bay's 3rd and 8th, its the half par yardage which really makes the hole. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1937/43132966790_80a9f65082_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1937/43132966790_80a9f65082_b.jpg)

A great hole!
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1958/43132967110_ab3a0900cd_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1958/43132967110_ab3a0900cd_b.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1962/44225861774_82abfce588_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1962/44225861774_82abfce588_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on June 28, 2013, 04:25:12 AM
delete
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Montrose done, onto Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on June 28, 2013, 05:05:11 AM
Britt

The problem I have with Montrose is the man-made elements don't nearly live up to what can only be called an outstanding site. 


Niall

I agree with Spangles, given the property boundaries, the dunes are incorporated into the design.  I didn't see much duneland on the second course.

Adam

I notice you didn't single out the 1st for comment.  Do you think the 5s are lacking? 


I didn't think the first was anything special to be honest. I like the fourth very much, primarily for the green, which I thought outstanding. Will save detailed comments on ten and eighteen till you get there, but in general terms I'd say the former just doesn't work, and the latter is overdone. So as a set, yes, perhaps I would agree they are lacking (though I hadn't considered it in those terms before).
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Stop - Trump International
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on June 28, 2013, 05:23:48 AM
Wow - it's like Portsalon all over again - raised green,  large bunker on one side with land falling away from it so the ball cannot feed toward the hole using the ground but away from it. Therefore a pitch landing on the surface of the green is the only option. Rinse, repeat. This feature was used on probably about half of the holes at Portsalon and it looks like something similar is happening at Trump although it appears not quite as bad. Personally, I can't stand the feature - chucking down the drain your number one asset (i.e. firm, fast running turf) like this is something I do not comprehend. Why not, instead, give a player 2 or 3 different options of getting a ball to the hole from any given spot - as opposed to just one? Why are so many more modern links courses like this - instead of a Deal or the Old Tom Morris course at Rosapenna or Royal St George's - lay of the land links golf - to me it's the best kind - and I'm going to need to hear a very good argument to be convinced that a series of raised greens defended by large bunkers is a better option.

Sorry if I am sounding hysterical, and I may well be misreading things from the pics but can you talk a bit more about this, Sean?

If that's hysterical then I'm an Austrailian goal kicker.  :D

Brian I agree completely with your thoughts on this tendency on modern links,  but found it far more pronounced at Rosapena and Ballyliffin Glasheedy than Portsalon (although I saw it just before the other two as the formula became more and more apparent)?  It's also the apparent random way the bunker in front of the green is placed, one left, then  one right and one centre with no regard to the land around them.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Stop - Trump International
Post by: Ben Stephens on June 28, 2013, 06:36:15 AM
Sean et al,

I don't know if anyone has picked this up - the fairways and the green surrounds at Trump International are different shades of green - is it  different type of grasses used or was it 'hair' dye to make the fairways greener.

This is a remarkable similarity to Mr Trump's barnet.

I admit that the landscape is spectacular but can't help feeling that it is over bunkered in areas with similar sized bunkers which makes it look repetitive and artificial. Hawtree should have taken a look at Muirfield where the cluster of bunkers are of different sizes and scale which makes look more pleasing to the eye.

Sean hope that you can manage to get to Downfield and Caird Park in Dundee as well as Blairgowrie's Rosemount. Pitlochry is probably to your taste. Panmure and Carnoustie Burnside are good tracks as well as Monifieth Medal.

Cheers
Ben 
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Stop - Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on June 28, 2013, 06:57:48 AM
Sean et al,

I don't know if anyone has picked this up - the fairways and the green surrounds at Trump International are different shades of green - is it  different type of grasses used or was it 'hair' dye to make the fairways greener.
 

Ben - the greens and surrounds were turfed, while the fairways were seeded, thus the grass is at different levels of maturity. In a few areas, when I was there last summer, the fairways had been overseeded with perennial rye to get full coverage, because the fescue wasn't mature enough; I've been told there was quite a bit more of that done over the close season, but I haven't been there this year so I can't say so for sure.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Greg Taylor on June 28, 2013, 08:14:44 AM
Yup, raised greens + firm conditions + wind = tough golf

Thanks for these pics Sean, please keep them coming.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Stop - Trump International
Post by: Thomas Dai on June 28, 2013, 02:57:05 PM

"If that's hysterical then I'm an Austrailian goal kicker"..............thank God you're not Tony...... otherwise the folk from Downunder might have won the 1st Test!!!

I take Adams point about the turfing around the greens and the seeding of the fairways at Trump and the differing grass maturity etc, but it's very noticeable from Seans photos of Montrose how beige/brown Montrose's fairways are in comparison to Trump. Fairway sprinkers as well? It'll be interesting to note how the fairways are at the other courses in Seans tour.

Given the steepness of the dunes and the amount of mounding at the edges of the fairways/greens/tees etc it would be interesting to know how they could accommodate large numbers of spectators should they desire (hope) to hold a significant event one day.

By the way, any news on the houses and the hotel development, the second course......and the windfarm?

All the best.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on June 29, 2013, 05:36:10 AM
Tom

I don't think it is reasonable to expect a newly sodded/seeded course to be allowed to brown out.  First things first - the grass needs to grow in and knit together before stressing it. 

TRUMP CONTINUED

Back to banger golf.  For some reason we played the Blue tees on this hole (as we did sporadically throughout the round).  At 463 with an uphill approach I think we pushed the boat out too far.  Straight-forward hole regardless - a good change of pace.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1979/43132966600_7ee7f3d0e4_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1979/43132966600_7ee7f3d0e4_b.jpg)

Another interesting green which is more traditional.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1964/30008659367_cbcb82acc4_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1964/30008659367_cbcb82acc4_b.jpg)

The side finishes with an intimidating driving hole.  The hole spreads right, but I think the best position is to hug the inside of the leg.  I didn't make any enquiries, but I suspect the house will be built on the same location as the hospitality tent to the rear of the 9th green.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1933/30008659277_0831d5e8c7_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1933/30008659277_0831d5e8c7_b.jpg)

Probably my favourite tee shot on the course.  The marsh to the right is used well.  There is also more fairway further right (out of photo). That route opens up the green, but its a tough target to hit, plus for the large hitters the driver can be taken out of their hands. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1948/30008659147_965701536a_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1948/30008659147_965701536a_b.jpg)

In the general shape of an S, the hole climbs into a large hollow.  I don't usually like S shaped holes, but the 10th is very well executed. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1935/43132966430_7fce6623e8_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1935/43132966430_7fce6623e8_b.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1960/44225861674_8abeab5714_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1960/44225861674_8abeab5714_b.jpg)

A view from the 11th tee toward the 13th (on right) and 17th greens.   
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1945/30008658937_feee08fa8d_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1945/30008658937_feee08fa8d_b.jpg)

Another intimidating drive.  Note how the dunes abruptly end with arable land adjacent. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1925/43132966280_ef18c14bf7_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1925/43132966280_ef18c14bf7_b.jpg)

From the prime position on the left, perhaps the approach to #11 is too similar to the 9th.  Both greens are generally angled front right to rear left.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1927/30008658167_cd3191b503_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1927/30008658167_cd3191b503_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 29, 2013, 06:12:36 AM
Sean,

looking at the photos it appears they have really gone to town on cutting back the rough on some of the holes which was much needed. I think it will be another 4 or 5 years before it will be possible to judge the playing characteristics of the course. I fear they will regret the ryegrass overseed if F&F/running game is wished.

Jon
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on June 29, 2013, 08:46:36 AM
Sean,

looking at the photos it appears they have really gone to town on cutting back the rough on some of the holes which was much needed. I think it will be another 4 or 5 years before it will be possible to judge the playing characteristics of the course. I fear they will regret the ryegrass overseed if F&F/running game is wished.

Jon

I assume they will use Rescue to take it out.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Niall C on June 29, 2013, 09:40:53 AM
Sean

Thanks for another wonderful photo tour. I think your comments, and Brians comments about the greens sum it up nicely. The internal contours are by far the best feature of the course for me but the wide open and flat landing areas and push up greens makes it more modern parkland than traditional links.

Niall
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on June 29, 2013, 03:41:31 PM
Sean,

looking at the photos it appears they have really gone to town on cutting back the rough on some of the holes which was much needed. I think it will be another 4 or 5 years before it will be possible to judge the playing characteristics of the course. I fear they will regret the ryegrass overseed if F&F/running game is wished.

Jon

I assume they will use Rescue to take it out.

Can you ensure complete elimination with rescue, Adam?

The course does look much more playable and a fair bit less green than this time last year.

Complete, no, but if you go to Bearwood Lakes and look at the roughs you'll see what it can do. I think Dan has the best stand of fescue rough I've seen in this country, even though his soil is far from great (though I was at Brocket Hall last week and tat was pretty impressive too, presumably for the same reason).
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on June 29, 2013, 05:09:34 PM
Rescue is a pretty new product, and frankly I think it's fairly remarkable. I remember the first time I talked to Gordon Irvine about his work at Deal; he told me that when he arrived there, he found that they were overseeding the links with ryegrass, because the then greens chairman freaked out at the cost of fescue seed. Now, this would still be a stupid idea, but if you have a herbicide that takes out the rye while leaving all the desirable grasses, it suddenly becomes far more straightforward to maintain a stand of fine grasses.

The holy grail, of course, is something that takes out poa, and leaves the good grasses alone!
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on June 29, 2013, 06:26:21 PM
Too scientific for me I'm afraid. But herbicides that kill broadleaved weeds while leaving grass are perfectly normal, so I guess it's just a refined version of that.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on June 30, 2013, 06:16:37 AM
TRUMP CONTINUED

The great variety of putting surfaces continues with an example of relatively sedate movement on the 12th.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1979/43132965570_7d7d9a182f_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1979/43132965570_7d7d9a182f_b.jpg)

One of my favourite holes on the course, #13 is best played out left near a steep drop-off.  Unless the golfer is quite long, there is a risk of the dunes blocking out an approach from the right.  The raised green is one of the more sedate on the course, but not without interest.  For some reason the circular bunker style works on some holes and not on others.  I wonder if there was any thought to using different bunker looks when the situation arises.  The setting for 13th is outstanding.  The great variety of putting surfaces continues with an example of relatively sedate movement.   
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1973/30009287927_31bf138925_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1973/30009287927_31bf138925_b.jpg)

We made the arduous climb to the knob tee for #14, but it was well worth it for the views.  It must be a carry of 230ish yards to the fairway from way back.  The target is actually quite narrow as well. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1939/43132966090_24d11fbfa8_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1939/43132966090_24d11fbfa8_b.jpg)

The final short par 4 is very welcome.  While the left side of the 15th fairway is obviously bad news, it didn't seem as though one could drive it far enough right to take advantage of the length offered by this severely angled green.  There is another 25% of the green to the left out of the photos.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1924/30008658787_890e9f8e2e_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1924/30008658787_890e9f8e2e_b.jpg)

We now turn and make the run home beating back into the wind.  The 16th suffers aesthetically for bunkering, but it is a very good hole set on a diagonal line. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1979/30008658187_460fa1accd_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1979/30008658187_460fa1accd_b.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1943/30008658727_8fb046f203_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1943/30008658727_8fb046f203_b.jpg)

Perhaps the best longish two-shotter on the course, the 17th is pure perfection.  The diagonal green set on a saddle requires the drive position to be very accurate. 
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1922/30008658077_a9a8739aaf_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1922/30008658077_a9a8739aaf_b.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1954/30008658557_81267264be_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1954/30008658557_81267264be_b.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1966/30009287697_8db3b981be_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1966/30009287697_8db3b981be_b.jpg)

The home hole is a monster from the back tees - 651 yards!  Tired of climbing to put a peg in the ground, we all voted against even taking a look from this tee.  As it was, the white tee is 586 yards, playing uphill for the second and third shots and into the wind - three good woods are required for most.  Is this overkill?  Without a doubt and by far the least enjoyable hole on the course.  The hole somehow required 18 bunkers which when viewed from on high look ridiculous. To make matters worse, the hole doesn't finish near the house so more walking is required.  Such a pity this course ended in such a slog. 

Despite the rather dubious, but to be expected poor condition of the greens and especially fairways, I don't think there is any doubt Trump International is a great course.  The course will be hugely popular, increase golf tourism in the area and likely be rated top 25 in GB&I. Some elements such as the swales around the greens and uphill approaches were overly relied upon.  However, the putting surfaces are outstanding and the bunker placement is generally very imaginative and thought provoking.  That said, the repetitive oval shape and size of the bunkers needs a serious re-evaluation. The fairways are generally wide enough, but with the rough being incredibly penal, perhaps some thought should be given to creating ten additional yards of first cut. One aspect of the design which is very off-putting for me is the long and often uphill green to tee walks.  The course is essentially set-up for the back tees so those playing forward tees walk further without hitting shots.  Part of the reason for these walks is surely down to the site being so rambunctious (reminds me Enniscrone), but I would prefer if more of the course was routed to suit the forward tees.  For anybody thinking of travelling a long distance to play Trump International, I recommend waiting 3-4 years for the course to properly grow in. Your patience will undoubtedly be rewarded with a course in great nick.  Of course, there is no Doak rating. 1*  2013

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on June 30, 2013, 07:51:45 AM
Thanks for the tour of Balmedie, Sean... Inevitably I agree with some things you say and disagree with others (e.g. I don't think the course is set up for the back tees - in fact I know Martin Hawtree and Caspar Grauballe spent a lot of time trying to work out the shortest green to tee walk for the 2nd and 3rd back, not an easy task when the land dictates so much)...

I think the course is excellent... Most of the design I liked a lot... However, I've said it in the other thread and I agree with Brian - the one thing that disappointed me a little was the number of greens that were raised up artificially with surrounding swales and mounds when it would have been so easy to use side-dunes as kick-plates and more natural too - see the 8th green which was my favourite.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on June 30, 2013, 08:15:21 AM
Ally

Thats fair enough, but I can't believe it wasn't possible to keep some of the tees at lower elevation and thus closer to the previous green.  It seemed quite obvious to me that an effort was made to create vistas and that meant raised tees.  That in and of itself isn't a huge deal, but of course the knock on effect is downhill tee shot and uphill approach.  That theme was played to death.  I would have preferred of the design picked its moments to go high and showcase the views.  Of course, as you allude to, part of the problem (as I see it) is modern design "demands" a large set of tees.  This makes it much harder to control the extra walking.

Ciao 
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on June 30, 2013, 08:19:48 AM
Sean,

I can't quite recall if I thought there were opportunities to have lower tee-sites that would have made for easier walking green to tee... But when you've dunes those size, you have to get over them to get from A to B on quite a few occasions so quite often it ends up with high points that suit tees... I'm sure you are right though - your memories are much more fresh than mine...
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Greg Taylor on July 01, 2013, 07:20:25 AM
Sean, the bunkering reminds me a little bit of Lytham: small, dotted around which can be visually intimindating and probably too penal.

That all said, and despite me not wanting to like it, but from the pics it does indeed like the course has the potential to contend in the higer echelons of the Top 100 GB&I.

I was initially very suspicious of the last UK's Gold World rankings but based on your comments and the pics it certainly warrants further discussion. Let's not get into whether the green fee is VFM however.

I would be interested to hear your opinion on Royal Aberdeen. When I did my trip of the highlands I was disappointed with the holes away from the shoreline - the back nine essentially. Did you play it?
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Adam Lawrence on July 01, 2013, 07:28:14 AM
No doubt in my mind that the high tees are overdone. The eighteenth is the worst offender. You have a 600-odd yard hole with eighteen or nineteen bunkers, and yet, from the top tee, it looks small and puny - because the tee is just so damned high up. Much better hole from some of the lower tees in my mind, although there is one particular deck right out on the edge of the seawall dune that, while very high up, is undeniably dramatic.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2013, 07:41:44 AM
Adam

No question the scale is out of whack on the 18th.  This is one reason why I wondered if other and larger styles of bunkers were considered for this project.  There is also an issue visually with the second par 5.  All the wee pots crammed together on such a grand site looks at odds to me.

Greg T

Yes, we played Aberdeen - it is up next.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 01, 2013, 07:58:58 AM
Adam, Sean,

Undeniably, there are a lot of back tees placed high. But the question should be whether there are gratuitous climbs for the 2nd and 3rd back sets... For instance, you arrive at 18 high up, don't you? I remember the same at 14... And you need to climb out of dunes to reach other playing corridors... In other words, the natural position was the high one...

Can you remember examples with unnecessary climbs?... 16 comes to mind - that tee could easily have been low.

The back sets should be entirely disregarded...
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2013, 09:04:31 AM
Ally

I seem to recall unnecessarily raised tees on:

2, 4, 5, 11, 14, 17 & 18.

Thinking back on it, part of the issue with the long walks was due to exiting the greens from the rear even though there may have been a quicker route.  Part of this may be due to aesthetics, some due to cost of building/maintaining steps and some due to the concept of wide paths to allow more chit chat (I spose) between holes.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 01, 2013, 09:26:40 AM
I do remember climbing back up to the 2nd tee when they could have been slightly lower and left (but that would have been worse visibility and angle)… Can’t recall 4 tees……  5th tees were just staged up the dune, were they not – back ones higher, front ones lower…. 11 there was one path round to the right at grade level with low tees – and back tees staged up the natural dune…. 14 I walked off the back of 13 to the tee I hit from – completely natural…. 17 climbed back a bit… 18 you start high….

You don’t mention 16 but that was one hole where there seemed no advantage to be gained from trekking up the dune

There are a lot of high tees for sure…. Would it have been a better course if the designer had tried to stage all his tees lower, regardless of the natural landforms, regardless of desired length, regardless of visibility and regardless of extending walks round or over dunes to reach the lower positions? I don’t know – I’d need to go back and have a proper look… I too like tees positioned in to low positions to the side of dunes if possible so I’m sure there must have been some opportunities…. But overall, the tees (and there were 6 on each hole remember) seemed to make use of the landscape in my (slightly hazy) opinion…
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2013, 12:15:50 PM
Ally

I don't think it was practical to go crazy with low tees.  The site is too freaky for that.  Other sites with crazy land such as Ennicrone are blessed with some flat land to balance the mountain climbing.  That said, it seems like Hawtree went out of his way to create high tees/views.  Maybe the odd blind shot would have actually been better.  There must have been some opportunities (and would bet on it) to exit greens and whack a forward tee in there instead of so much walking around then past tees.  Instead, all the exits are to the rear and leading down (up really!) winding paths.  Trump just seems like it made no effort to recall traditional links golf.  I feel like there is an extra mile of walking when a shot can't be hit.  I gotta say, when we played Carnoustie Burnside the next day everybody was relieved to actually see tees from greens.  All in all, if I were the guy looking for site on that property, I would have routed some holes away from the dunes just to create more diversity - especially if a second 18 were planned.  The dunes are wonderful, but a doubled edged sword.  Still, Trump will be a complete and total winner with visitors - I have no doubt of that.  There is an awful lot of good stuff going on there.

Ciao

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: RJ_Daley on July 01, 2013, 01:08:43 PM
Nothing to contribute for lack of having never been there, but a thank you for another great thread, Sean. 
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Niall C on July 01, 2013, 01:27:14 PM
Sean

Good point about the paths, the Romans would have been proud of them. Look forward to seeing Royal Aberdeen.

Niall
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on July 01, 2013, 04:13:03 PM
Sean,

Can you explain the strategy of the 5th hole at Trump? Is there any reason why you would go left of the center-line bunker, even with the pin tucked in to the right?
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Steve Lapper on July 01, 2013, 07:37:50 PM
Sean,

Can you explain the strategy of the 5th hole at Trump? Is there any reason why you would go left of the center-line bunker, even with the pin tucked in to the right?

Donal,

I'll take a run at an answer. For longer hitters (or downwind with a hybrid or fairway wood) a shot down the left opens the entire green up and permits a view unobstructed or impeded by the push-up fronts of the green. Any knockdown like approach from the right plays parallel to the spine on the green making a run-off the back a distinct possibility. Also, the angles of the tees vary, even from the angle of Sean's picture. Most of the tees offset one another and aren't perfectly stacked in line. Hope that helps a bit

Cheers,

S
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump International
Post by: Sean_A on July 02, 2013, 03:40:19 AM
ROYAL ABERDEEN

Originally playing over the Queens Links & Kings Links between the rivers Dee & Don from at least 1565, the club moved to its curent site just to the north in 1888.  The new course design is attributed to Robert Simpson (likely with some input from his brother Archie) wih a total length of 5400 yards.  Simpson was a typical jack of all golf trades professional having been runner-up in the 1880 Open and a well known club maker who was the pro for Carnousitie between 1891 and 1898.  Like many Carnoustie pros, Simpson eventually made his way to the United States where he would win two Western Opens (1907 & 1911...a period in which Scottish golfers dominated at the Western).  While changes have been made by such esteemed architects as James Braid in 1925, the basic layout remains as it was 130 years ago.   

The tee set hard against the house windows, the first, while lovely, isn't really like many of the next eight holes.   
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/3d8e1b67-e228-4919-9410-0eb63806a840_zpsjn2ojyoh.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/3d8e1b67-e228-4919-9410-0eb63806a840_zpsjn2ojyoh.jpg)

#3
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/095_zps9cfb6e84.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/095_zps9cfb6e84.jpg)

More to follow. 

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 2nd Course - Trump Done; Royal Aberdeen Up
Post by: Sean_A on July 02, 2013, 05:16:11 PM
Brian

I disagree and think Trump is more than a competent design.  I did give Trump an Arble star, mind you, at £195 for a game Hawtree would have had to knock this one out of the park and I think while great, Trump falls well short of that.  Trump isn't really isn't my bag.  I don't think there is much there that couldn't have been predicted/expected if one knew the site.  I prefer a bit more risky and varied design even if it all doesn't work.  The walk is hard as hell anyway so why not come up with a few cool ideas?  Don't get me wrong, I like the course, but wasn't wowed by it except for the views.  If you are on a jolly near Aberdeen anyway, you should give it a look.  Maybe you will like it much more than me, but knowing you - it is best to wait a good three years for a proper grow in.     


ROYAL ABERDEEN CONTINUED

The 4th is another hole playing through dunes and with a driving zone which is difficult to figure out. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/64d1e103-bfa5-460c-b5e1-9baa7c26f44e_zpslccaowhd.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/64d1e103-bfa5-460c-b5e1-9baa7c26f44e_zpslccaowhd.jpg)

Long and pinched between bunkers, the green is not an easy target to find.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/097_zps67588dbc.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/097_zps67588dbc.jpg)

The last time I played the course the wind was directly opposite so I didn't experience the pattern of smothering the driver.  I think the front nine suffers a bit with #s 2, 4, 6 & 7 all being "lay-up" holes if downwind.  #5.     
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/ed737313-a53b-4356-b7a3-c41d43be3ccd_zpstyfdhxnx.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/ed737313-a53b-4356-b7a3-c41d43be3ccd_zpstyfdhxnx.jpg)

A look back at the general front nine landscape from the 6th tee.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/102_zps1ceddd4a.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/102_zps1ceddd4a.jpg)

A very short par 5 downwind, the 6th is strengthened by the fairway bunkers and the broken land one must carry for the second.  All the trouble for the long approach is at the front of the green, just about where one's long second may land if having a go at the green in two.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/5f628e3d-abec-48c0-a039-e27a21686fa4_zpso6ss9uss.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/5f628e3d-abec-48c0-a039-e27a21686fa4_zpso6ss9uss.jpg)

The 7th offers yet another confusing landscape. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/104_zps60fb6c52.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/104_zps60fb6c52.jpg)

#8   
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/105_zps45323239.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/105_zps45323239.jpg)


More to follow.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Mark Chaplin on July 03, 2013, 06:56:59 AM
Has Trump overpriced for now when everyone says its going to be great in 5 years when the conditioning is up to scratch?
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 03, 2013, 07:06:48 AM
The conditioning is not bad, Mark, despite what those above might have you believe. The course will mature and become comfortable in its own skin a little more - that may lead to firmer conditions and slightly wider playing corridors. But its been built at an incredibly high-spec and opened with the grasses more or less fully grown in.

It is expensive, no doubt. Perhaps they could have charged less for the first couple of years but I don't know many golf courses that would try that approach. They didn't announce a "soft" opening. It is fully open. Therefore it charges full price.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Sean_A on July 03, 2013, 07:39:10 AM
The conditioning is not bad, Mark, despite what those above might have you believe. The course will mature and become comfortable in its own skin a little more - that may lead to firmer conditions and slightly wider playing corridors. But its been built at an incredibly high-spec and opened with the grasses more or less fully grown in.

It is expensive, no doubt. Perhaps they could have charged less for the first couple of years but I don't know many golf courses that would try that approach. They didn't announce a "soft" opening. It is fully open. Therefore it charges full price.

Ally

Trump was comfortably the worst conditioned and most expensive course we saw on the trip.  I wouldn't recommend anybody pay that rate now.  The fairways do not hold together for shots and the greens rolled at about 5.  In a word, if this were Muirfield or another top whack course people would be howling.  We couldn't hit the ball hard enough for long putts.  I would say a good percentage of the fun was taken out of the game because of the conditions.  While I am fully cognizant that the course is growing, the only conclusion one can draw is the conditions at the moment are poor.  Generally, I was seriously disappointed with the conditions of the greens on the trip.  My home course NEVER has greens rolling so slowly or bumpy even in the dead of winter.  Curiously, the best conditioned course was Carnoustie Burnside.  While not overly quick or terribly true, at least the greens meshed well with the fairways and were quite firm.  I was pleasantly surprised especially considering the green fee.    

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 03, 2013, 08:30:48 AM
The conditioning is not bad, Mark, despite what those above might have you believe. The course will mature and become comfortable in its own skin a little more - that may lead to firmer conditions and slightly wider playing corridors. But its been built at an incredibly high-spec and opened with the grasses more or less fully grown in.

It is expensive, no doubt. Perhaps they could have charged less for the first couple of years but I don't know many golf courses that would try that approach. They didn't announce a "soft" opening. It is fully open. Therefore it charges full price.

Ally

Trump was comfortably the worst conditioned and most expensive course we saw on the trip.  I wouldn't recommend anybody pay that rate now.  The fairways do not hold together for shots and the greens rolled at about 5.  In a word, if this were Muirfield or another top whack course people would be howling.  We couldn't hit the ball hard enough for long putts.  I would say a good percentage of the fun was taken out of the game because of the conditions.  While I am fully cognizant that the course is growing, the only conclusion one can draw is the conditions at the moment are poor.  Generally, I was seriously disappointed with the conditions of the greens on the trip.  My home course NEVER has greens rolling so slowly or bumpy even in the dead of winter.  Curiously, the best conditioned course was Carnoustie Burnside.  While not overly quick or terribly true, at least the greens meshed well with the fairways and were quite firm.  I was pleasantly surprised especially considering the green fee.    

Ciao

Sean - It must have deteriorated since my visit then.

My point really was that for a group that like to think we place "condition" way down on the list of important things regarding the quality of a golf course, we sure do seem to place a lot of emphasis on it.

That said, I tend to agree with your angle - at the full rate (which is already extortionate) and with no pre-warning about the course still maturing, then it might come as a bit of a surprise to some.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Niall C on July 03, 2013, 01:27:29 PM
Ally

It's perhaps fairer to say most folk tend to think of conditioning along side how much there paying. Even the cognescenti on this site can appreciate the architecture but at the same time object at poor value for money re the conditioning. FWIW when I played it with Mike Whittaker last year the overall conditioning was a long way short of top notch. The greens and surrounds were near flawless however the rest of the "short stuff" was diabolical, like playing of a sanded shag pile carpet. Didn't suit me at all, never got a chance to hit one of my towering one irons 220 yards into a stiff breeze. Very disappointing !

Niall
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on July 03, 2013, 02:04:05 PM
Didn't suit me at all, never got a chance to hit one of my towering one irons 220 yards into a stiff breeze. Very disappointing !

Niall

You didn't play any of those at Silloth either !!  ;D  :D
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Mark Chaplin on July 03, 2013, 02:21:55 PM
Swinley Forest have been reducing green fees by circa £50 (33%) due to 3 or 4 poor greens. It shows even premium clubs can acknowledge when things aren't 100% right for their customers.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Sean_A on July 04, 2013, 05:16:01 AM
ROYAL ABERDEEN CONTINUED

#9
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/b5283d6c-54fb-4ed9-aa2c-996426813554_zpsvcztppvu.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/b5283d6c-54fb-4ed9-aa2c-996426813554_zpsvcztppvu.jpg) 

Murcar's 3rd is at the end of the links.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/108_zps9c170ebd.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/108_zps9c170ebd.jpg) 

#10
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/6edf667d-2201-4d92-bb94-d418e5b7f398_zpslnkumhcb.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/6edf667d-2201-4d92-bb94-d418e5b7f398_zpslnkumhcb.jpg) 

Very flat, but with an undulating green, the one-shot 11th continues the change of pace.

#12
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/eb89e579-3b6b-4a80-80f9-588f63b90698_zpsslax5j8c.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/eb89e579-3b6b-4a80-80f9-588f63b90698_zpsslax5j8c.jpg) 

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/9effe2fa-fffe-45c0-8956-8856fa0b98d6_zpsmelnkmyt.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/9effe2fa-fffe-45c0-8956-8856fa0b98d6_zpsmelnkmyt.jpg) 

A seemingly wide tee shot narrowed a bit by the general fairway tilt toward the left rough (and out of position), #13 is still a bit of a relief even at 400 yards.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/116_zps5e45257f.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/116_zps5e45257f.jpg)

The reader can see this green area  has been recently reworked.  The right bunker needs work as it is not nearly deep enough.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/d2e84bd3-94e7-45bc-95f6-fcc8e52bd591_zpskcx0ncto.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/d2e84bd3-94e7-45bc-95f6-fcc8e52bd591_zpskcx0ncto.jpg)

More to follow.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 04, 2013, 05:19:42 AM
Sean,

Know you're not at the end yet but Royal Aberdeen - back nine better than the much lauded front nine?
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Sean_A on July 04, 2013, 06:07:48 AM
Sean,

Know you're not at the end yet but Royal Aberdeen - back nine better than the much lauded front nine?

Ally

The back nine is far better than given credit for.  Whether it is better than the front is not something I would say.  I would probably be inclined to say the back is an excellent compliment to the front.  The big issue with the front nine for me is much of the land was used in the same manner; thru dunes, fairway breaks (if downwind) - my biggest beef, and left to right leggers.  But I am not one that thinks dunes are the be all and all of links simply because its difficult for archies go against the grain of the land.  I think TOC is awesome terrain for golf, same for Deal - basically flat terrain (with some areas excepted) with most of the movement essentially being lowish lying.  Totally different stuff to playing through dunes which I always feel is a double edged sword.  Golf needs space, the sort of which most dunes systems don't provide.  Yet, dunes are beautiful and it is always wonderful to have some holes through this sort of terrain if available. 

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 04, 2013, 06:14:21 AM
Sean,

Know you're not at the end yet but Royal Aberdeen - back nine better than the much lauded front nine?

Ally

The back nine is far better than given credit for.  Whether it is better than the front is not something I would say.  I would probably be inclined to say the back is an excellent compliment to the front.  The big issue with the front nine for me is much of the land was used in the same manner; thru dunes, fairway breaks (if downwind) - my biggest beef, and left to right leggers.  But I am not one that thinks dunes are the be all and all of links simply because its difficult for archies go against the grain of the land.  I think TOC is awesome terrain for golf, same for Deal - basically flat terrain (with some areas excepted) with most of the movement essentially being lowish lying.  Totally different stuff to playing through dunes which I always feel is a double edged sword.  Golf needs space, the sort of which most dunes systems don't provide.  Yet, dunes are beautiful and it is always wonderful to have some holes through this sort of terrain if available. 

Ciao

I grew up playing at Balgownie so I know it well (although it's been over 20 years since I actually played a round there)... I think I agree with everything you say above...
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Niall C on July 04, 2013, 07:34:28 AM
Didn't suit me at all, never got a chance to hit one of my towering one irons 220 yards into a stiff breeze. Very disappointing !

Niall

You didn't play any of those at Silloth either !!  ;D  :D

Donal,

As Sean Arble will tell you, all you need for your approach shots at Silloth is an 8 iron  ;D

Niall
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: jeffwarne on July 04, 2013, 08:33:52 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that windmill behind hole 11 looks really cool?
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Brian_Ewen on July 05, 2013, 02:35:03 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that windmill behind hole 11 looks really cool?

Some history:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=51877
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Royal Aberdeen Done; Burnside Up
Post by: Sean_A on July 05, 2013, 03:58:51 AM
Jeff

I couldn't believe how many "windmills" were strewn across Scotland on this trip.  They are bloody everywhere!  I don't mind them so much at Aberdeen because the area is heavily urbanized anyway. 

ROYAL ABERDEEN CONTINUED

#14
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/dd1a4786-d043-4a42-b71f-a77e4486e3b5_zpscljiopcn.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/dd1a4786-d043-4a42-b71f-a77e4486e3b5_zpscljiopcn.jpg)

As suggested in the opening Aberdeen post, the back nine has been more than merely tweaked.  The shortish two-shotter 15th, has had its green surrounds reworked.     
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/122_zpsa5052d7b.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/122_zpsa5052d7b.jpg)

A tightly guarded drive played into an upslope, the sixteenth plays quite a bit longer than its listed 371 yards.  For many the approach will be blind.  Below is a look at the green after a very good drive. 
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/123_zps1ad480a3.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Royal%20Aberdeen%20GC/123_zps1ad480a3.jpg)

1*  2013


CARNOUSTIE BURNSIDE   

For me, the surprise of the week.  Carnoustie Burnside is not close to being a great course, but it is a wonderful balance of challenge and intrigue.  One might say the Burnside is nay on perfect holiday golf.  It didn't hurt that the course was the best conditioned we saw all week, but the variety of greens and shot options is glorious.  Mind you, the Burnside is no pushover.  The links is 6000 yards with a par of 68 and a standard scratch of 70.  There is work to do in earning a good score.  However, one of the best aspects of the course is the wonderful walk. Tees are near greens, thus making it very easy to play in 3.5 hours.  The scene is more laid back as well.  One gets several glimpses of the Championship course as the two are intertwined.  We played the par three 5th, teed off on the 6th and hit our approaches before the gang on the Championship's 11th finished teeing off! 

The origins of the Burnside go back to 1892 when OTM and Robert Simpson laid out nine holes. A rare example of a second course being added prior to the opening of the New at St Andrews. While very much the baby brother of the Championship Course, the Burnside has been an Open qualifying course in the past.  Indeed, in 1953, Ben Hogan qualified for the Open playing over the Burnside.  As the name suggests, the Barry Burn is featured on some holes (most notably on the 17th!), but for the most part it is the fairly tight fairways, clever - hard to hold greens and firm conditions which guard against smash mouth golf.  That said, on most holes the rough was well kept.  Balls could be found quickly, but not necessarily easily played. 

The first is a tame opener, but a surprising green awaits.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/851/43684254932_6d7ca330eb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/851/43684254932_6d7ca330eb_b.jpg)

The long par 4 second has its green squeezed between OOB down the right and a bunker left.  The green, as it should, moves toward OOB.  Coming in with a long club is a very risky play.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/932/29861209478_f75a467821_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/932/29861209478_f75a467821_b.jpg)

The opening par three is quite difficult downwind.  As is evident in this photo, I suspect the functional aspect of some of the features is less than appealing for some traveling golfers and thus perhaps why this course isn't much more highly respected.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/855/43684257452_95242c7f95_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/855/43684257452_95242c7f95_b.jpg)

An obvious homage to the 4th on the big course - quite similar holes.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/936/29861209398_5f2ebc420d_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/936/29861209398_5f2ebc420d_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Royal Aberdeen Done; Burnside Up
Post by: Niall C on July 05, 2013, 07:20:14 AM
Sean

Put me down as a fan of Burnside also. The flattish holes nearer the town were good and required a good hit while the holes nearer the sea had plenty of good linksy roll on them. Look forward to the rest of the tour.

Niall
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 05, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that windmill behind hole 11 looks really cool?

No you're not alone Jeff. Perhaps a few more sited just a few miles further north up the coast might look quite nice! Chuckle, chuckle!

Another splendid photo tour Sean. Enjoying the Burnside. Never played it. Wish I had.

As to Royal Aberdeen, well there arn't many better courses around than Balgownie. A really, really strong test of golf. IMO it won the Walker Cup, the two teams were just playing for second and third places. It's two courses really, not just because the nines are somewhat different in character - nothing wrong with that I reckon, but because of the wind, more effected by the wind than some of the other courses in the area I always thought, particularly those further south. It's very, very unusual to get a calm day, you might get a 1 club wind perhaps 1 day per week but the rest of the time it'll vary between 2-4 clubs and even 5 a clubber is not unknown. And when that wind comes from the north, which is the opposite to the prevailing direction, the front-9 becomes a total beast, for example not being able to reach near to the par-3 3rd green even with a driver. Indeed I recall on the first day of the British Seniors Open a few years ago, one former US Pro tour player took 51 shots to cover the front 9. Stopping shots on many of the back-nine greens becomes really challenging with a northerly blowing from behind. Another factor with the wind is that whichever direction it blows from, it is a very cold wind, even in summer, and a golfball never seems to flight as well through a cold wind.

As to the angles of the shots, especially the tee shots, the dunes by the coast have varied over the years. Favoured tees that were once up on top of the dunes above the beach have had to be moved, some inland as coastal erosion has been an issue. For example, at one stage there was perhaps 40 yds of land behind the 1st green. No more though. A bunker was once installed over the back of the at the 17th green. The wind blew so hard all the sand came out and the area was soon turfed over once more. It's a reasonable point about the angles of the teeshots though, for example, in the winter the 7th hole used to be played from a tee to the right of the 6th green, which I always reckoned was an improvement on the usual summer tee position.

Balgownie, a great course, one that will test every club in your bag, and a course that IMO definitely deserves an Open, and pretty soon too.

All the best
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Royal Aberdeen Done; Burnside Up
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 05, 2013, 05:27:52 PM
Will certainly be interesting to see how it gets on with The Scottish Open next year...
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: 3rd Course - Royal Aberdeen
Post by: Brian Freeman on July 05, 2013, 10:57:52 PM
Sean,

Know you're not at the end yet but Royal Aberdeen - back nine better than the much lauded front nine?

The back nine is far better than given credit for.  


Agree completely.  Played the course on a day that had a 3-4 club prevailing wind and thought the back nine was a great test into that wind.  Tough? Yes.  But fair and fun.  12, 17, and 18 are world class holes.  Surprised to see some changes have been made.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Carnoustie Burnside
Post by: Sean_A on July 07, 2013, 05:09:40 AM
BURNSIDE CONTINUED

The unusual 5th is a peninsula hole with the open end on the left.  The large tree on the left "encourages" golfers to play more toward the centre of the green and the danger.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/929/43684257152_69bfd2687a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/929/43684257152_69bfd2687a_b.jpg)

A very nifty hole, #6 begs the golfer to carry the right bunkers when in fact these are red herrings.  Due to the right to left tilt of the green it is best to approach from the outside of the leg.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/857/29861209308_69bfd2687a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/857/29861209308_69bfd2687a_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/929/43015832484_62e943250e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/929/43015832484_62e943250e_b.jpg)

From the rear of the green the tilt is quite pronounced.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/860/43015832364_1c1ae9efbb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/860/43015832364_1c1ae9efbb_b.jpg)

The 7th slides gracefully left over humpty bumpty ground.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43015833434_251924aea5_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/941/43015833434_251924aea5_b.jpg)

The long two-shot 8th also requires the player to stay on the outside of the leg.  The green is a tough and blind target from the left of the fairway.  Even from the best position the approach is demanding.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/933/29861209258_a0f8cd7e52_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/933/29861209258_a0f8cd7e52_b.jpg)

The side ends with a great par 3.  Playing uphill and into the wind, the plateau 9th is a severe target. Its a shame about the astroturf  ::) Plus, the visuals would be enhanced if the bunker could be properly seen from the tee.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/854/29861209078_d50b21c750_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/854/29861209078_d50b21c750_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/942/43015833374_f8c8bd5de3_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/942/43015833374_f8c8bd5de3_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/928/29861209178_11d26a59b0_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/928/29861209178_11d26a59b0_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Carnoustie Burnside
Post by: Sean_A on July 08, 2013, 03:42:01 AM
BURNSIDE CONTINUED

The back nine continues the excellent golf.  A narrow, blind drive turning left reminds me quite a bit of some tee shots at Portrush.  It is very easy to be caught much further right than is ideal.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/939/29861208978_5ce185cdfb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/939/29861208978_5ce185cdfb_b.jpg)

Not only does the rough cause problems, but the green is well defended from this angle.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/851/43684256282_b69ca5bfea_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/851/43684256282_b69ca5bfea_b.jpg)

The 11th too is very good without being exceptional.  #12 offers a centreline bunker, but the place to be is on the right side of the fairway. Given the unusual shape of the green and bunkering further up, left of the bunker is in play, but very awkward.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/855/43684256092_afbf22b778_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/855/43684256092_afbf22b778_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/936/29861208778_7fdf7dc09b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/936/29861208778_7fdf7dc09b_b.jpg)

Notice the front left of the green - balls naturally move to the lower right side of the green.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/862/43684255772_d3daf3ed41_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/862/43684255772_d3daf3ed41_b.jpg)

While the 13th is not a full on punchbowl, it seems most links have some version of this classic design.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/855/29861208668_aac17de478_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/855/29861208668_aac17de478_b.jpg)

It is rare for a course to have the wonderful diversity of par 3s the Burnside enjoys.  To have a hole the quality of #14 is even more unusual. Long & demanding, long & demanding....Considering the hole is 228 yards, uphill and often into the wind, well, nuff said.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/937/29861208088_7de77885be_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/937/29861208088_7de77885be_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/858/43684255102_a107e50fbb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/858/43684255102_a107e50fbb_b.jpg)

More to follow.
 
Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Carnoustie Burnside
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 08, 2013, 05:30:54 AM
Burnside looks really good...

I thought I'd played it when I was 13 years old along with the main course but nothing rings a bell... Maybe I played the 3rd course - The Buddon, I think?
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Carnoustie Burnside
Post by: Colin Macqueen on July 08, 2013, 05:41:22 AM
Sean,
Once again thoroughly enjoying your Angus and Grampian Tour but of course wee Burnside is very dear to my heart. It was on Burnside that I hit my first shot on an actual golf course. Onto the railway line which you never mentioned as a hazard in your description of the first hole.

But what set my wee heart racing was the photo you took at the turn and there was the wee double storey hoose, white washed and glinting in the Carnoustie sun with its bay window on the second floor. The home was (is?) called Lismore and from that very window I espied Ben Hogan as he putted out on the eighteenth to win in 1953!!!

(http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a460/Colinmacqueen/Lismore_zpsfec7215b.png) (http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/Colinmacqueen/media/Lismore_zpsfec7215b.png.html)

Great stuff and thanks.

Cheers Colin
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Carnoustie Burnside
Post by: Sean_A on July 10, 2013, 04:06:56 AM
Col

Burnside would be a great course to learn the game.  There are plenty of times when one has to decide to bang away or throttle back. 

Ally

Burnside is very good - a huge surprise for me.

BURNSIDE CONTINUED

Not by any means bad holes, but the final four are not the strength of the course.  That is with one exception and it is a rather large exception both in length and difficulty.  In fact, the 17th is very close to the design concepts of the heralded 17th on the Championship Course. Barry Burn harries (blind from the tee!) the golfer throughout the entire 473 yards of the hole.  The trouble doesn't end there.  The green is terribly small with gorse and other such medieval-like Scottish growth protecting the right and rear.   When one finishes the hole climb the berm and take a look at the other 17th - it has nothing on Sinkies.   
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/935/43015832164_9771d8dbaf_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/935/43015832164_9771d8dbaf_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/849/43015832634_8928c39566_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/849/43015832634_8928c39566_b.jpg)

How many truly "second" courses provide such an array of great golf holes?  #s 6, 9, 12, 14 & 17 are no less than superb and would add dignity to any links.  The backing chorus too is of high standard.  In short, the Burnside is a special course.  Golfers make a pilgrimage to follow in the footsteps of Hogan, but Braid's (recently found out he was responsible for the design - who else?) Burnside is not to be missed.  The only possible drawback of the Burnside is the lack of facilities near the 1st or 18th.  One can get a drink at one of the clubs down Links Parade (Carnoustie Ladies GC has by far the most kerb-side appeal), but there is a sense of isolation.  Depending on one's sensibilities and after witnessing the monstrosity that is the hotel and visitor centre, this may be no bad thing.   2013

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Carnoustie Burnside
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 10, 2013, 07:59:58 AM
This Burnside photo tour indicates how good the quality of golf is at 'lessor' courses often found adjacent to main Championship courses. Thank for highlighting the Burnside Sean.

Where would be other there similar locations in other parts of the globe where there is a good quality lessor course immediately adjacent to a main Championship course and where the lessor is very much worth playing? Perhaps the Valley course at Portrush? One of the other courses at Bethpage? Suggestions please, although perhaps best as a separate thread?

All the best
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Carnoustie Burnside
Post by: Sean_A on July 10, 2013, 08:32:42 AM
Thomas

I never thought much about the second course at Co Down.  Someone did a photo tour of the place and it looked very good. 

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Burnside Finished; Onto Cruden Bay
Post by: Sean_A on July 11, 2013, 04:17:26 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49311710647_3d2570d0bf_o.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49311710647_3d2570d0bf_o.jpg)

On to the final leg of the tour and the course which impressed me the most.  It would seem the design history of Cruden Bay is a mess.  We know certain key characters were involved, but because of the ongoing changes over time it is hard to know what Old Tom Morris, Archie Simpson, Tom Simpson, Herbert Fowler and even a few minor characters such as Mr Weir contributed.  The general consensus seems to be that the course is roughly a 50-50 split between OTM/A Simpson (1897ish) and T Simpson (1926).

Tom Simpson had a long association with Cruden Bay so it could be that he worked on the course without his long-standing partner, Herbert Fowler, but certainties cannot be counted.  Simpson thought so highly of Cruden Bay that he included three holes among his 18 best in GB&I.  Given Simpson's penchant for self-promotion one is wise to take this three hole proclamation with a pinch of salt.  For instance, the first is included and it isn't a bad hole at all, but in the cold light of honesty it shouldn't even be mentioned for such honours.  The 8th, however, is a special hole indeed and the 18th may not reach the heights of best 18, but it is a very fine hole regardless.

In any case, what is in the ground today is magical.  T Doak claims the routing is near perfection because it follows a pattern the walker would take if out for a stroll.  I am not sure this is the case, but the routing is quite interesting because the path runs through a bottleneck (#s 14 & 15) where the width allows for one hole.  To get to this point we must climb the large meadowy hill on which the 9th plays over.  Without a doubt, this is the weakness of the walk.  Many have suggested that if the the land utilized for the 9 hole St Olaf course could be incorporated into the design #s 9-15 could be taken out of the equation.  This may be true, but I am not in the least convinced the course would be nearly as fun nor as scenic.  There are too many exhilarating shots such as at #s 11, 12, 13, 14 and dare I say 15 which if did not exist would in all likelyhood be land explored for possible changes to the course.  The land is always greener on the other side of the hill.  Suffice it to say, what Cruden Bay currently offers is something special. 

#s 1 & 2 are too restricted to be what I would call good holes, but they make a decent enough start to the game if one doesn't mind playing conservatively.  Below is the approach to #1 and a long look at #2.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4460/24047724958_9f1d4a557f_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4460/24047724958_9f1d4a557f_b.jpg)

The first of a marvelous set (isn't it wonderful to refer to a set of short 4s?) of short 4s, it is at third that Cruden Bay awakes - as much as a blind hole can.  The fairway funnels to the green, but it can be a difficult two-putt.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4462/37851115706_7bb6b76e0b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4462/37851115706_7bb6b76e0b_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4476/37851115306_a7bd6a7e2a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4476/37851115306_a7bd6a7e2a_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4489/37851115116_84a5404426_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4489/37851115116_84a5404426_b.jpg)

The 4th is a good par 3 in a great setting, but I would suggest that it is the least interesting of the lot.  I think the source for my lack of enthusiasm for the hole stems in the 40 yard gap between the daily and medal tees.  It isn't possible to build a mid-tee, but I think at 165-170 this would be a far better hole.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4479/37851114896_b2571516a6_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4479/37851114896_b2571516a6_b.jpg)

Climbing to a high tee, the very long two-shot 5th cloistered between dunes is fully revealed.  The hidden two tier green is most interesting because the back section seems to fallaway.  The golfers are making time because there was a horrendous forecast for the day and we all knew it was just a matter of time.  We did get a bit wet, but 20 minutes after coming in it rained holy hell. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4462/37851113036_18faa9c987_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4462/37851113036_18faa9c987_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Burnside Finished; Onto Cruden Bay
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 11, 2013, 05:45:32 PM
Just to say thanks for the thread; outstanding golf to be had in that area.


Royal Aberdeen. Magnificent.   You haven't seen all there is to be had in Links golf, until you've seen this one.   There is a tendency for the received views on courses to be repeated ad nausea.  I was surprised to see that there is a different set of holes on the back nine rather than just a lesser set.  This is no RCD and I hope that this cliché  dies.

Carnoustie Burnside.   Great.  All that a ‘small’ course might be.  The famous turf is there and something to marvel at.  There is a danger than it is going to be further marginalised.  I stopped off on my way back and had a chat with the Starter on the main course who alerted me to the current partial redesign of the Budden course.  This shares it’s facilities with the main hotel and he said the aim was to make it recognised as the true second course.  It was his favourite with  trees and now lakes coming!!!

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Carnousties-Buddon-is-redesigned/2106/Default.aspx

If they’ve changed 6 greens on the Burnside the work was brilliantly done.  If the course becomes more marginalised, then as long as they keep the maintenance standards up, it will become the epitome of a hidden, in plain sight, gem.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Burnside Finished; Onto Cruden Bay
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 13, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Where's Sean gone now?  ;)

Pics suddenly not working.

Wanted to share some commments form a lurker who is a fine golfer and a member of Royal Aberdeen. lucky chap.

"You are right about changes to some of the holes on the back nine, or more precisely to some of the greens. 12 & 13 were redone by Steele about 7-8 years ago, I wasn't sure about them when they were first done, but they have matured well and now putt as well as any other and I think pose good challenges. They altered the direction that you play into the greens, previously you were hitting inland into the greens, so they changed their positions so that you now hit towards the sea. They are both very undulating though, and it can be very hard to get the approach shot close to the pins.

Last winter (2011/2) they rebuilt the 15th green and approach entirely after it took a lot of stick in the walker cup, apparently there was a bit of a drainage problem and the green was normally much softer than most others. It has been raised about 6' and the bunkering improved dramatically, to me it now fits in much better with the rest of the course and looks very natural. The 16th tee used to sit 8-10' above the putting surface so you can see there was a lot of earth moving involved in changing it.

Then in October 2012, the 18th green was completely dug up and an impermeable layer about 4-6' down removed, the green reshaped and rebuilt, with the bunker positions altered slightly too.

The original turf from the 15th and 18th greens was carefully removed and maintained while the groundwork was done and then replaced to preserve the original putting surfaces. I think they did an excellent job, I'd be surprised if you noticed much difference between the 18th and any of the others, which just goes to show what a good job the guys did.

In general I find the back 9 plays much harder than the from 9, but that is entirely down to the prevailing wind, of late the wind has been in the opposite direction quite often and I can say the outward 9 plays really hard into a 2-3 club wind, and the back 9 is a doddle downwind!"





Come on board, Col.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Burnside Finished; Onto Cruden Bay
Post by: Sean_A on July 16, 2013, 04:19:37 AM
CRUDEN BAY CONTINUED

The 6th or Bluidy Burn is a remarkable par 5.  Not overly long at just over 500 yards, but hitting the green in two requires a miracle.  The hole seems to run straight out for 500 yards then abruptly turn left.  If one can get his second pin high in the fairway to the right he is in great shape.  Mind you, there is the Bluidy Burn to deal with for this strategy, but then the burn must be dealt with for any strategy.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4452/37851114736_aa0b72a861_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4452/37851114736_aa0b72a861_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4447/37851114856_ece59cdc79_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4447/37851114856_ece59cdc79_b.jpg)

The tee shot at #7 is much like the uncertainty one faces for the second on #6.  The only indication of a fairway is the dunes. Against the visual clues, one wants to hit his tee shot on the outside of the right dune if a clear view of the green is to be had.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4486/37851114686_93f92e392a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4486/37851114686_93f92e392a_b.jpg)

And a tough target the green is!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4505/37851114586_4ecf43dca4_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4505/37851114586_4ecf43dca4_b.jpg)

The second very reachable par 4, # 8th.  There is very little room for maneuver once missing the fairway.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4493/37851114446_b29f12c55c_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4493/37851114446_b29f12c55c_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49311710792_c58581d271_o.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49311710792_c58581d271_o.jpg)

As the Beatles wrote, #9, #9, #9...and the ninth is just about as maddening.  In truth, the hole isn't that bad because the green at least runs away from play.  But why the club has built an extra par 3 rather than sorting out the aesthetics of this hole is a strange decision.  Because we made the climb for #9, the knock-on effect is the 10th; another hole which doesn't do much for me.  In an imperfect world, it seems to me this terrain is begging for a par 3 over the burn.

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Cruden Bay
Post by: Sean_A on July 17, 2013, 05:14:52 AM
CRUDEN BAY CONTINUED

Similar to North Berwick, Cruden Bay has some forgettable holes.  With #s 9 & 10 behind us, we come to the very good 11th - a tough par 3 if there is any wind about.  The green is raised with bunkers down the left and nasty fall-away to harsh rough right.  One may think they caught a lucky break if they plowed one into the 13th fairway, but that recovery is blind to a narrow green; most likely outcome is nil point. 

An often forgotten hole in the set of short 4s is #12.  There isn't a ton of room and perhaps this is why so many find it such a temptation to bang away.  We now turn for home.  I gather these holes often play into the wind and they must be fierce in winter.  The thirteenth is the second par 5 and it too is of high quality.  The second crosses a burn and the approach is to a pulpit green.  It is best to stay left for the approach!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4480/37851114066_0fbeda1934_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4480/37851114066_0fbeda1934_b.jpg)

In truth, the 14th isn't a great hole.  In essence, it is one large funnel, but because it is so unique one has to get behind it.  While one wouldn't play to the high dune right off the beach, this angle does provide for an easier approach!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4489/37851113866_f16af5bf2c_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4489/37851113866_f16af5bf2c_b.jpg)

The green is straight forward.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4502/37851113506_0524a29163_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4502/37851113506_0524a29163_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49311710692_8281cea034_o.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49311710692_8281cea034_o.jpg)

The very controversial 15th seemed to warm on me a bit.  I have been a harsh critic of this hole in the past, but I can now tolerate it.  I am still not sure it makes sense given the previous two holes, but there you have it.

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Cruden Bay
Post by: Sean_A on July 18, 2013, 03:41:37 AM
CRUDEN BAY CONTINUED

The final holes strike me as an unsung trio; two par 4s and the par 3 sixteenth.  Many complain about the front to back nature of the 16th green, but it doesn't seem any where near as loopy as the previous hole!  I like it and am most impressed by the recovery putt which is much more uphill than it appears. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4513/37851113396_da1782664f_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4513/37851113396_da1782664f_b.jpg)

The penultimate may be my favourite on the course!  The huge elephant's graveyard while unique is completely in keeping with Cruden Bay.  My playing parter hit a wonderful drive (quartering wind off the left) which drifted behind the large grave.  He then promptly used the wind which bewitched him on the drive and whacked a 50 yard slicing 5 wood to about 25 feet!  Quite simply one of the best shots I have ever seen.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4513/37851113246_e809cec5af_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4513/37851113246_e809cec5af_b.jpg)

The home hole isn't as grand as the previous two holes, but with the wind off the left, finding the A position on the left top shelf of the fairway is no easy task.  For the successful gambler off the tee, the approach is a doddle.  If one spins it out right off the tee it could well result in a kiss. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4485/37868698502_30edeeb46e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4485/37868698502_30edeeb46e_b.jpg)

Cruden Bay impressed me mightily and if I had to compare it to any course it would be North Berwick.  Both courses have outrageously awesome holes and both have holes which aren't worth the walk. Their total package, however, is sheer delight.  Sure, I was lucky to catch the course in very good nick (the fairways anyway) and not experience the horrendous rain which was promised and came 20 minutes after finishing.  Cruden Bay may not offer the test which Royal Aberdeen does, but Cruden's collection of short par 4s is very attractive.  Add in the cast of #s 6, 7, 13 & 17 and Cruden Bay is all anybody could wish for.  1*  2013

My favourites from the trip in order

1A. Cruden Bay 1*
1B. Carnoustie Burnside r
3. Montrose  Not Recommended
4. Royal Aberdeen 1*
5. Trump Aberdeen  Play it in 3-5 years

Best in order:

1A. Royal Aberdeen
1B. Cruden Bay
3. Trump Aberdeen
4. Carnoustie Burnside
5. Montrose

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Complete
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 18, 2013, 04:41:07 PM
Splendid post. Great photos. Very insightful.

Comments about Cruden Bay seem to forget many of the holes highlighting instead the terrific stretch from the 3rd to the 7th before commenting on the 'unorthodox' 14th followed by giving the 15th a good slagging off. Not this tour though, which is nice.

Here are just a couple of comments about some unsung holes and a hole that gets slagged -

The 'forgotten' short par-4 11th hole. Stand on the tee thinking yippee, it's birdie time. Walk off frustrated with a 5. Happens all the time. All the time.
The much slagged-off 15th hole - Next time folk play CB view this hole from the rear of the green looking back towards the tee. I'll say no more.
16th hole - Grassy not-to-deep hollows to the right and rear of the green. Nice subtle wee features.
18th hole - Back portion of the green slopes subtly downwards towards the rear.

Cruden Bay. Great course. Great scenery. Once played, never forgotten.

Great thread/tour Sean.

All the best.
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Complete
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 18, 2013, 04:50:38 PM
I must admitt first time at Cruden Bay I was just a little underwhelmed, I'd expected that much.

This time I enjoyed it more.

On my first visit the 15th was unplayable for a player of my then skills (17 h'cap) as the dune's funnelled a wind that became a hurricane into your face. This time is was playable and without a stong wind, strangely unremarkable. To follow it with another largely blind par 3 is not ideal and I still prefer the 16th. 

Next time I'm in the area RA will be the must play.  RA is a cert to make my top 5 in Scotland.  I supose Cruden Bay gets into my top 10.


Anyone know what is the fate of the new Par 3 just beyond the course we palyed?  Looked like the centre bunker had been filled in?
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Complete
Post by: Greg Taylor on July 18, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
Sean, once again thanks for taking the time to post your pics/thoughts.

I'm totally with you on the Cruden Bay / North Berwick comparison. They are both quirky links courses, never going to be open rota type calibre due to length, infrastructure etc... For me one debate to be had is Cruden Bay versus Nth Berwick - something to mull over in another threat perhaps.

Had Cruden Bay not got the two back-to-back par 3's I would probably give it the edge.

I played Royal Aberdeen in 40 mph wind, and the back nine into the wind was very tough. However I would put the second at Royal Aberdeen as the sort of hole that Trump's place aspires to be: ribbons of green fairways through dunes with penal pot bunkers. It is great great hole.

That all said somehow Royal Aberdeen had a little more presence to it. It was more a serious test. Prolly the pick of the bunch.

Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Complete
Post by: Sean_A on July 29, 2013, 09:05:27 AM
Spangles & Greg

My biggest issue with RA is all the holes on the front 9 where driver is not a viable option.  Downwind, it just seems the course is trying too hard to protect par.  Good test of golf though and very picturesque.  I still take CB over it.  Next time I want to travel up to Fraserburgh for a go.  Maybe see Panmure as well.  Add in CB and the Burnside and that sounds a delightful trip.

Ciao
Title: Re: THE BRIEF A&G TOUR: Complete
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 29, 2013, 11:11:34 AM
There's was a nice thread comparing Muirfield and Royal St Georges recently.

Given that the Championship courses at Royal Aberdeen and Cruden Bay are often compared here's a similar exercise, but this time comparing separately the par-3's, the par-4's and the par-5's.

Par-3's
Royal Aberdeen has 4, the 3rd, 8th, 11th and 17th
Cruden Bay also has 4, the 4th, 11th, 15th and 16th
I suggest a composite courses par-3's would be the 3rd, 8th and 17th at RA plus the 4th from CB.

Par-5's
Royal Aberdeen has 3, the 2nd, the 6th and the 12th
Cruden Bay only has 2, the 6th and the 13th.
My composite would only have 2, both of them, the 6th and the 13th, would be from CB.

Par-4's
For the sake of comparison I'm turning the short-ish par-5 6th at Royal Aberdeen into a long par-4, thus both courses are par-70. Hence in this comparison both RA and CB have 12 each.
RA the 1st, 4th, cut down 6th, 9th, 14th, 16th and 18th
CB the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 17th and 18th
(the 3rd at CB is a bit of a floater hole here. I could have included several other notable holes from either course but I wanted to include a shortish par-4)

Summary of above
RA 10 holes
CB 8 holes
(close to being 11/7 split or possibly even 12/6)

No doubt they are two wonderful courses. Which would I choose to play? As a newbee visitor to the area with only one round to be played on either course to be ingrained in the memory forever? CB. An extremely challenging, even severe course, testing every aspect of your game in a medal round against your most hated opponent when you are playing well, your opponent isn't and your playing for serious £$£$? RA every time. A member of both living half way between them? RA 7 times, CB 2 times and the St Olaf 9-holer at CB once (actually the 6th and 8th holes on the St Olaf 9-holer at CB and the 17th on the Silverburn course at RA would probably make my overall 18 composite holes at both sites).

All the best