Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim Colton on April 05, 2013, 10:43:59 AM
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http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/going-down
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For the most part I have to agree with Mr. Peper. I'd much rather carry my bag or take a trolley as I do in the UK than pay a 40-something $100 to carry my bag and give me Bushnell readings.
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I would like to see Mr. Pepper play NGLA without a elevator operator. 5 1/2 hour round anyone?
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NGLA is no more confusing or difficult than dozens of UK courses with blind shots and tricky greens. Golfers at those courses don't take four hours on average to play, much less 5½... they would be banned if they did! My experience is that groups with caddies do not necessarily play faster, because the players are often in full "tournament" mode grinding over every putt with the caddies help. It can be painful to endure sometimes.
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Good caddies are nice, but they are a luxury item.
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Good caddies are nice, but they are a luxury item.
This is how I view caddies. It is very fun to have them, but a "luxury item" is the perfect description.
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Good caddies are nice, but they are a luxury item.
+1
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Good caddies are nice, but they are a luxury item.
+1
As are Cadi-llacs. ;) ;D
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Disappointing perspective indeed.
The costs appear to be the problem. I'd agree if all you are getting from your caddy is yardages and Bullshit reads.
The last paragraph is indeed the saddest of all.
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The last paragraph makes me want to puke.
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I'm with him most of the way. I'd rather walk and carry than take a cart, but all else being equal, I'd probably rather take the cart than the caddie most of the time. There are two exceptions:
1. When it's an Evans Scholar program or something similar. I have no problem with giving a kid a bit of money.
2. When I really want to see the course and a caddie is the only option. I'll take a caddie over a cart at Pinehurst, but I won't visit them nearly as often as places that let me sling my own bag on my shoulder.
Professional caddies are a wet blanket.
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The last paragraph makes me want to puke.
I've never been clear on why someone who is "just about the shots" doesn't spend his time on a driving range or on one of those computerized deals where you hit ball into a canvas and Pebble Beach is projected along with a CGI image of your shot. That is about the most know-nothing comment I'd ever care to see from a much published writer like Mr. Peper.
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I like the idea of a forecaddie on courses that can be difficult for the first timer. I used one the first time I played each of the Bandon courses as well as chambers Bay. After that, no need in my opinion.
I will say that there is a very cool feeling about strolling down a fairway free of any bag or cart, you feel like a pro for a minute until you hit your next shot fat and leave it short sided in the bunker.
Locally a few of the Portland City Owned courses have started a caddie program and produced some great results. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/03/madison_high_students_in_north.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/03/madison_high_students_in_north.html)
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Probably because I play about 1,000 rounds carrying my own bag for every round with a caddie, my sense the experience is different. Sauntering down the fairway without my bag the predominant feeling is "Where are my clubs?". Then when I stop walking and stand around woolgathering for a couple minutes until my double-bagging caddie finishes with his other client, my main thought is "Where the HELL are my clubs?". It definitely makes a difference in the golf experience, I'll grant...
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Everyone should have the experience of a good caddie at least once. No one should be forced to take one.
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I just cannot get comfortable with the idea of hiring someone just to carry my bag. Never did and probably never will. And if I am playing a new course, figuring things out by myself is something I enjoy doing.
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The last paragraph of the article is disappointing. That said, I do disagree with the concept of mandatory caddie or cart. I believe that walking is an integral part of the game, and golfers always should have the option of carrying their own bags or even using a pushcart (I still don't understand why pushcarts are acceptable inthe UK and Australia, but they are considered taboo here in the USA.) I think caddies are a luxury (one that, quite frankly, is above my paygrade, particularly at this point in my life).
If I'm playing PV or Merion, yeah I might want to experience the course with a caddie for the first time. But the choice should be mine. I think that Bandon has the correct model. Offer caddies to those who want to take them, but allow carrying and pushcarts as well.
My former club generally allowed carrying, but it was restricted for members over 35 (and guests were automatically charged a cart fee). On weekend mornings before 10:00, you could carry if you wanted, but if there were caddies available and you were 35 or older, you were charged a $10 trail fee. That policy really bothered me. As a member at an equity club, I think I should be able to decide whether to take a caddie or carry without being charged some arbitrary fee.
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Spread the wealth apparently is a NIMBY principle.
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My favorite way of seeing a new course is by playing it along with someone who knows it well.
On my 2010 trip to England I was scheduled to play a round at Royal St. Georges. I had walked the course several times as a spectator but never played there. I could have hired a caddie but there was a mention on the welcome letter (E-mail) saying that arrangements could be made for someone from the professional's staff to accompany visitors.
So I called and made an appointment with one of the assistant professionals and we played the course together. I asked him to hit first on each tee and let me see the ball flight as an indication of the best line to choose. It was a much more enjoyable round than my typical caddie experiences have been. The only drawback was toting my own little carry bag, which I normally do every round anyway. I guess we also had to rake our own bunkers.
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[retracted]
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Spread the wealth apparently is a NIMBY principle.
If I were wealthy and cost was never an issue then I could see taking a caddie when available as a special treat. But, alas, I am not wealthy... so there is little to "spread." I would much rather give $100 to Autism Research than compensate someone for carrying my golf clubs.
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Its been a while since I've posted but I feel very strongly about this one and I'm glad George wrote the article.
I'm all for caddies and I respect their work as I caddied through high school and college. However there are only a handful of caddies worth $70-$100 especially if the caddy is carrying 2 bags as is the norm. Furthermore, what can a caddy really provide in advice if one is playing their home course?
I think that these the mandatory caddy policies are a detriment to clubs as dues are cost prohibitive enough. Who wants to pay the equivalent of a daily fee on top of dues every time they play?
Caddies are a luxury and I'd like to see clubs move away from mandatory policies. Let's let the free market speak here and see what happens.
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But how much of a problem is this? Caddies are mandatory at a handful of exclusive private clubs in the US. Here in Canada I have never seen a course that requires caddies, very few courses even have caddies. As Peper said I have never heard of mandatory caddies in the UK and they don't even have caddies at high end courses in NZ like Kauri Cliffs or Cape Kidnappers and I am guessing that Aus is the same.
High end publics like Pebble and Pinehurst don't seem to require caddies, at least I have played Pebble without caddies.
The best value for caddy is SE Asia. Giving $20 to a caddy at Nirwana in Bali makes you an extremely generous tipper and the young ladies really work hard for that money despite the fact that you are in a cart.
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It's a problem to the small fraction of golfers who have an attachment to the idea and the institution of caddies.
In other words, not really so much a problem as a niche concern. However, to all appearances that small fraction of golfers are overrepresented about 100:1 on this forum as compared to the population of golfers at large.
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Its been a while since I've posted but I feel very strongly about this one and I'm glad George wrote the article.
I'm all for caddies and I respect their work as I caddied through high school and college. However there are only a handful of caddies worth $70-$100 especially if the caddy is carrying 2 bags as is the norm. Furthermore, what can a caddy really provide in advice if one is playing their home course?
I think that these the mandatory caddy policies are a detriment to clubs as dues are cost prohibitive enough. Who wants to pay the equivalent of a daily fee on top of dues every time they play?
Caddies are a luxury and I'd like to see clubs move away from mandatory policies. Let's let the free market speak here and see what happens.
Greg,
It is a free market. You are free to choose not to join or play at a course that requires mandatory caddies.
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When my club opened in 1999 caddies were mandatory at most times of the day. If you rode, you took a forecaddie. Since then the rules have relaxed and caddies are mandatory only at certain busy times of the week. For the first few years I took a caddie most every time I played. Since the rule has been relaxed I don't. I like a caddie. I had one caddie I took every time I played. I always played better with him. Not sure why but I did. He could really read the greens.
We don't have as many caddies anymore. More guys are carrying.
If money were not a factor, I think I would take a caddie most of the time.
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As a kid, much like a few of us around here, I would very occasionally get a request from the pro shop to caddy for a visiting golf society but the idea of mandatory caddies is almost too alien for me to get my head around. It sounds like a warped take on a P.G Wodehouse story.
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Gentlemen,
Talking about P.G. Wodehouse and caddies in the same breath made me start a bit. I am not sure but I do not recall "Plum" ever writing about or describing a caddy or even a caddy scene in any of his golfing prose. Have I just missed the writings or is this really the case? Anybody able to point to any examples in Wodehouse's collections of golfing stories? A good reason to revisit those pearls!
Cheers Colin
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I'm a huge fan of Peper but stunned by his perspective on this given his metro-area golfing roots. I guess several years in Scotland opened his eyes to a different, affordable approach (i.e. carrying your own or using a trolley), but then his enthusiasm for cartball was wholly-unexpected. I play at a traditional club in the northeast and we have a strong caddie program. It could be characterized as a luxury (I spend ~$5,000 per year on caddies...don't tell my wife ;D), but frankly it would be a lot less fun playing each weekend without the additional camaraderie offered by the caddies at my club. Having said that, as I contemplate a winter membership down south I have been weighing the pros and cons of caddie vs cart courses, and the extra $ are certainly a consideration.
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Although I rarely use caddies I have had some wonderful experiences with a FEW top notch caddies. Additionally I have paid $100 for a caddie that smoked almost an entire pack of smokes during my round. The funny thing was the private club that I was playing did not allow cigs. ???
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From a guest perspective, part of the issue is that most caddies don't add that much to the round. They do a bunch of things I could easily do myself, such as carry the clubs, rake bunkers, find yardages, get the pin, etc. I've had a few that were really good that added to the experience (forgetting for a moment about cost entirely), but many are just there and a few detracted from the round.
If all caddies really made the golf experience more positive, I think the reaction to them would be more positive. But the trend toward adult full-time caddies that follow the sun, as stated in the article, seems to have made it more of a business transaction than anything else. I'm happy to take a caddie when its required/expected, but I find I most enjoy the rounds where I'm allowed to walk and carry and find my own way.
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My club claims to be a walking course, but most members take carts. If you walk, you are obligated to take a caddy. The caddies are local high school and college students who benefit from a caddy scholarship program along with the $ they make caddying. I like to support the caddy program whenever possible. I have a problem with able bodied members who ride in carts and do not support the program by taking a caddy. Carts should be for people who can't walk a full round of golf. Working out on a treadmill or in a gym before your round does not get you a pass to take a cart.
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My feelings about caddies are the same as bag boys. If they're under 25 and working their way thru college happy to tip, etc. More than happy to take a caddy if not over priced and not a 'job'. I don't need or want a professional caddy. To help someone appreciate the game and pay for an education, how can you object?
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The club where I play does not have caddies and that is fine with me as I like to walk and carry. I have no problem in going with the flow when at a club that requires caddies and have had many more positive than negative experiences. To me it is always a treat to play a really good golf course and take a caddie. I really don't care whether the caddie shoots the yardage or steps it off as long as it is accurate. The club normally sets that policy as to whether or not the caddie uses a range finder. I caddied growing up and have respect for someone that really wants to enhance the experience for his player and hustle.
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I too am surprised by Peper's attitude. I would have thought he would be pro caddie. In any case, its hard to understand why someone would be anti-caddie. Courses which require caddies are easy to avoid if one feels that caddies aren't for him. I am definitely not keen on pro caddies and am far more likely to go the bag carrier route if it was more popular and cheaper. The problem is everybody wants a big chunk of cash for doing actually very little and when one considers golf is only game...well its easy to see the future of caddies unless they are mandatory. No way I would ever join a club with mandatory caddies. Its too much of a production just to hit a ball and it jacks the price of a game unnecessarily high.
Ciao
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I was a caddie as a kid (didn’t really like it—preferred playing but learned something about golf and people through caddying). I have used caddies occasionally, either at clubs where required or at my club where it’s optional but they have a good Evans Scholars program and a good training program for younger kids. Some of my best experiences on a golf course have been with caddies (e.g. the caddie at Portrush who steered me around to one of my best rounds ever on my only playing there), I wish I could say I want to use caddies more. However, unfortunately my experiences are just too mixed to get me to do so. For example, my visit to Streamsong 2 weeks ago, I was assigned an experienced caddy who has worked at great courses like Shinnecock and Bandon. He should have been perfect for the job. Instead, he spent much more time hanging out with—and giving reads and yardage etc. to--another player pushing a cart, often while I stood around waiting for him. It was like having a guy carrying double who wasn’t. I couldn’t figure it out (nor could my other two playing partners or the other caddie in our group). Ultimately I decided this caddie just wanted to get more $$ from this other player by sucking up to him. In any case, I was pretty annoyed. If he was carrying double, this makes sense; not if he is the man on my bag. Needless to say I blew off his offer to caddy a second round and carried my bag the next two rounds. Too bad—caddying should be a noble profession but like other noble professions it suffers from weak links.
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::) :'( ???
It's all about the money guys, if caddies were the same price as carts , I doubt if many would opt for the buggies . It's expensive .
I'm obviously prejudiced to the looper, as spent so much time doing it as a youth and it paid for most of m college tuition and all of my Adidas basketball sneaks in high school. Also it turned me on to golf , and introduced me to some wonderful people who have made my life richer , many of you included.
I've been a big proponent of reduced caddy fees and forecaddies , which I think are great aids to pace of play and economical. As a special treat at "special courses" it's lots of fun to,have a good caddy, and these clubs should strive to hire only the best !
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Two kinds of caddies are okay, I like these dudes/dudettes.
1). Under 22 kid in school that needs to make some bucks and likes golf.
2). Over 60 retiree (with pension) that needs to get some off the books gambling money, get exercise a few times a week, and likes golf.
One type of caddy is marginal. This guy is neither here nor there.
-The middle-aged professional caddy that uses it as a primary job.
One is insufferable
- The middle-aged scratch handicap trust fund baby that is a member at some amazing club.
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During my 12 season tenure as Caddiemaster at Rockrimmon Country Club in Stamford, CT I had a mix of seasonal scholastic kids and about 7 or 8 weekend warriors totaling about 35-40.
On weekends even though I generally followed a necessary program of sending the caddies who would/could do 36 holes first (they needed to be back in to handle the 11:30+ Ladies and Guest play), I also mixed in as many of the WWs - who were salesman, construction workers, electricians, teachers, UPS men, etc - as I could in this cadre of the first 10 caddies out for the day even though most of them could not do "2" loops. (I had one WW who was the head of FCIAC scholastic referees and sometimes in the fall, he'd be cutting it close for his own referee gig and would caddy #18 in his zebra stripes after I drove em out to him...gave you the FG sign if you hit the fairway.)
These guys, unlike the 16-22 age crowd, had family responsibilities, had second weekend jobs, were taking their younger kids to LL, coached LL, and were taking grown kids on campus visits, etc. So, one of the reasons was so that they could maximize their "off-time," (if any) get off the course by noon and get home to their lawns and graduations and weddings. The other central reason I did this is that, like many clubs, the leading members of the club -- in wealth, or golf skill, or board positions, or themselves needing to get off the course by noon for their activities -- usually played at those earliest times.
They needed to be taken care of and these WW were the most popular among them - they did in fact comprise almost the 8 best of my 40 in terms of caddying acumen and skill and naturally, maturity. These earlier players also paid the best in that era, if the going rate was $60, they paid $70, $75, $80. This of course meant a good deal to these WW specifically; this extra 7-8K they earned over 30 weekends a year was vital to having some savings for children, a nice week in Disney World for a family of four or five, a rainy day fund for the cars, washing machines, roof repairs, gift envelopes and extraordinary things that send a lot of middle-class guys to the poor house.
One of these Weekend Warriors was Pete Maar, a 53 year-old US postman in Old Greenwich for 24 years. The slogan on the pediment of the Farley Postal building across from MSG in NYC (Neither rain, nor snow, nor gloom of night shall stay these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds...) described Pete perfectly. I came to learn that he had missed three days of work in those 24 years. He not once missed a loop or an assignment in the years I knew him. He requested vacation time from the post office only after he asked me about the summer golf schedule.
Pete was well, well -liked by all ages or factions of the club. Hardly said two non-golf words out there and became as requested as the best technical caddies at any club. Guys of all stripes, young old, hackers or club championship caliber happily took him out. Guys that were irritants and squeaky wheels turned into affable, non-plus gems when they came back from a round with Pete. Basically, you could set your watch to this guy.
He took any and every shit assignment I might have to dole out and actually asked that he go out with some of those specifically, if he sensed that the young caddie I was forced to devolve to, couldn't or wouldn't handle a particular loop well. If I was short of personnel for the afternoon players, even though he just walked 30 miles during the week and 5 more concluding a minute ago, he said, "I'll go Vin, just lemme get a shirt and sandwich out of my truck." He drove the world's worst beater...a little Datsun mini-pickup truck that would've been eschewed in 1903, no less 2003. But from this little car, he gave member jumps and changed their occasional flat tire...flatly refused, and would in fact run-away from people offering money. But if you didn't say thank you or didn't acknowledge him the next time you were up at the club, you went down in his notebook, and would never be helped again...as Pete repeated from some movie, "I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire."
As time went on, I could never do enough for Pete as his second employer. Pete LOVED golf, if Monday rotated as his "day-off" from the postal route and there was no outing at Rockrimmon, he'd use his privileges to play 45 holes (and then fish way out in the sticks of the course); I think he played twice a week after work, walking the Norwalk muni, Oak Hill. Whenever I could get free to use my juice, I took Pete and two other college-age caddies to play Old Oaks and Century and Stanwich and Quaker Ridge and the like; my god were they so appreciative...we used to call it our Semi-annual Loopers summit and used to talk about where we might go that year, as far back as in March. For guys who would likely never see these courses in their life, to have them all to themselves and playign with a cart...we had it better than the members
Pete's favorite movie was, "On the Waterfront" and indeed Pete was like an unaffected and true "Terry Malloy" character, the role that Brando made so memorable. Pete was accepted into Syracuse when his number was called in 1967, and he took no deferment, just went and got his Purple Heart in Vietnam...and then re-upped for another tour after two months stateside healing up.
By all accounts (Pete never spoke a word about it) he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder when he came back in 1973-74. He didn't have much going on outside of his military benefits and he started caddying again at Rockrimmon, where he had looped as a high-schooler before the war. The other caddies tell me that he often wore fatigue bottoms on the course (not so unusual then when caddie apparel was like Caddyshack) and a few other irregularities in deportment and attitude. This post-war 2nd stint at Rockrimmon did not go so well, culminating in Pete dropping the bag, after an argument/dustup with a member on the 11th green, and walking home...never to be seen again for 20 years, the year before I got there.
Well, back to the early-morning loops and my Weekend Warriors... I did have one "problem" - if you could call it that. There were two lovely guys, Rich Sheingold and Peter Weisbard who weren't that good (a 22 and 25 HCP when I first met them), were not part of the "in"-crowd, but often wanted to play early too...the earliest if they could. This was a problem because they often didn't have a third or fourth and had to take pot-luck hook-ups an hour or more later than those early times, which made for both a much slower round and a total conclusion time 2 hours later than they hoped. Also, this meant they got the low-priority caddies on the younger and immature end of the scale. They said nothing to me, never complained, always understood, treated me like I was powdering their ass instead of screwing them and were perfect gentleman. I wanted to, but I couldn't get latitude to do better for them, because they had a reputation, never honestly tested, that said: "They are bad, therefore they are slow."
Well one Saturday morning, Pete couldn't be there until 8:30am (he apologized six times before the day actually came) and Sheingold and Weisbard were taking their de-facto morning screwing over by me, waiting for the Back nine to clear, when I decided to use the opportunity to send them out with Pete. Four hours later, they came back into my office, and said in stereo, "We don't ever want to go out with anybody else again, if you can do it Vin." Then Pete came in to get his chit pay, and before I could mention what they said, he said, "Vin, if it works out for you, I'll take those guys every morning, no matter when they play or who they play with." I know Rich and Peter were great guys, and may have slipped Pete extra dough now and again, but back then they were not the easiest loop...they were everywhere and you needed a pith helmet and a compass to get them under 95, if you were lucky.
And for the next 4 seasons, anytime Sheingold and Weisbard were playing and Pete was there to caddy, out they went. Early on in this match-making, I also realized that they were playing noticeably faster with Pete, enopugh so that I could also hook them up and, if they would get a third or fourth early enough, I would have them lead off the day at 7:15. They got their third, another lovely, low-key chap named Ed Fuhrman and often, in short time, another prince, Ernie Stern (a Legion of Order recipient from France - a "Chevalier") and from then on, Sheingold Wesibard, Fuhrman, Ernie stern... and Pete were first on my tee sheet, unless they wished to play later. when Pete couldn't make a governor's cup one time, we got Jerry the pro to bump their match a half-hour later.
Then Rich and Pete started getting better and better scores...Rich brought Pete beers from the grill deck when they broke "90" the first time, and when Weisbard did it his first time, cigars in the caddie yard. The scores became lower and lower and for Sheingold, 80 was in sight...but he couldn't get over the hump. (Remember, this fellow [who looked like a debonair Jackie Gleason] was shooting 97-105 with four Xs on the card, not three years earlier.) then one glorious day in 2002, Sheingold lay 75 shots right in front of the 18th green, 10 yards of troubleless turf and 4 shots to do it, when Pete handed Rich his "Texas Wedge" putter, and hugged him...saying "Rich, not even YOU could fuck this up." Sheingold three putted for 78. Think about Nicklaus hugging Jackie after the 86 Masters and you may understand what we witnessed from the back porch of the bag room that day. Pete could have floated home and died right then.
A year later in 2003, June came along and because Weisbard was out of town, Sheingold did not play in the Governors cup tourney either. And without his regular loop, I was happy to send Pete with another group which included Michael Bolton the singer and the CNBC -defense attorney Mickey Sherman, who were on a cart and two opponents - one of whom lost his son seven years earlier in 1996 TWA smith Point disaster, walking. Because Pete always forecaddied on #1, he never really glad-handed Bolton and Sherman on the tee, he just grabbed their putters and headed out to forecaddy. They played #1 and when Pete put the flag back after it was halved, he extended his hand to Bolton, taking his putter back from him and making a proper introduction, "I'm Pete."
Those are the last words Pete spoke, as he when he reached the forecaddy spot on the par 4 2nd hole, he dropped dead from an aneurysm. Age 54.
The superintendent, another WW caddie Tommy (who Pete first trained was Tommy was 12 years old in the 60s) and I were on him with defibbs and CPR within 90 seconds of his collapse, but as the EMT's who showed up only 6 minutes later told us, no medicine in the world was going to reverse what happened - it was his time. Rich got wind of what happened from somebody playing at the club and was on the back porch with me and the other top contingent of caddies, eyes as red our ours, sobs as loud as ours, and perhaps the most heart-broken man you have ever seen.
It was a shell-shock of the first order to the culture of the club that summer. Four days later I gave Pete's eulogy to a throng of probably 250 people in the cramped funeral home, about 60-80 of whom were members, some may have had Pete five times total by my reckoning, but they were there.
On the next Saturday, six days after Pete had died, I was still in a daze...I was aimlessly driving around on the course - actually, hiding from everyone in the trees if the truth be told, I was emotionally spent. Richie was playing somewhere on the course and I just wanted to talk to him or be near him, life was returning to normal, going on and it was all happening a little too fast for me. I knew he was somewhere around the 7th or 8th hole and I'd figure to catch up to him at Rockrimmon's par 3 9th hole over water...
I'll let my story "An Inch from Belief" pick it up there...i n the next post
cheers
vk
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;D :D ;D :'(
V.K.
Just one word for that story ....beautiful....thank you for sharing !
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V.K. - You just made my day. Thanks for your wonderful essay.
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VK- great story, and very well told. Unfortunately, for every Pete there's a baker's dozen of Shivas' dreaded pro jocks.
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Years ago my wife and I played Dar Es Salaam Red Course in Morocco. The pro shop wanted us to take a caddie. That was fine with us. The caddies carried single bags so we each had our own. Neither of the caddies spoke English. We didn't speak their language either. Much of the round was very quiet except the occasional "Good shot Tommy," from my wife. After about 10 holes of "Good shot Tommy," the caddies picked up on it. Regardless of who hit the good shot the caddies would sing out, "Good shot Tommy." To this day we will say. "Good shot Tommy," to whoever hits a good shot. Most of our friends know the story and applaud a good shot with the same chorus of "Good shot Tommy!"
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Spread the wealth apparently is a NIMBY principle.
If I were wealthy and cost was never an issue then I could see taking a caddie when available as a special treat. But, alas, I am not wealthy... so there is little to "spread." I would much rather give $100 to Autism Research than compensate someone for carrying my golf clubs.
Michael, Where are you playing that requires a mandatory "caddy fee" of that magnitude? Probably a great course. You wouldn't play at a mediocre course more than once, that forced you to take a caddy. Would you? At the great clubs, if they want to have a flourishing caddy program, the fee you're paying helps them defray their costs. It provides much needed employment for somebody, and, when done properly accentuates your experience. It's part of the cost to play all these great places we are exposed to.
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It's a problem to the small fraction of golfers who have an attachment to the idea and the institution of caddies.
In other words, not really so much a problem as a niche concern. However, to all appearances that small fraction of golfers are overrepresented about 100:1 on this forum as compared to the population of golfers at large.
Brent,
I think it's deeper than that because it's one of those small things that make the big ones work. Caddies are part of the fabric of golf's rules and History. Without them in the future, the sport will lose out in the numbers of newer golfers introduced to the sport. Caddy programs ensure the possibility of passing down proper etiquette, protocols and procedures, to a next generation. A major feeder tributary to golf will be gone forever.
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I fully understand it is not comparing apples to apples but...
Many contemplating joining a private club can't comprehend paying the initial deposit, monthly dues, additional costs for events, food & drink, etc. and yet they still have to pay a dollar amount every time they play for the caddie (even if they prefer to walk or take a pull cart). To make matters worse, the amount is roughly equivalent to what they were probably paying for a round at their local high-end daily fee. The value proposition just doesn't make sense to many prospective members.
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Adam,
I'm pretty sure if you went to play a putatively great golf course, only to find they were for some reason watering the living bejeebers out of every inch of turf and rendering it a slow mess to play, you would walk away complaining that you'd really like to experience the course in good condition without the experience being ruined by the soft conditions.
I feel pretty much the same about having to hand my clubs over to somebody I've never met, who is also probably splitting time by carrying some other guy's bag as well. It takes me out of my rhythm, it makes the entire round a chatty overly "busy" experience because now I'm dealing with an intermediary instead of my a couple of other fellow golfers. In most cases, it results in my much less enjoyable day than I'd have had toting my own bag.
What seems to get lost in this eternal caddie discussion is the fact that some people would not voluntarily choose to use that service and it's nothing to do with cost or with stirring stories of great bonding experience between players and caddies or with anything else except for how we enjoy playing the game. So that's my two cents worth. It ain't always about the money and don't be so quick to assume that any round of golf could be made better with a caddie involved. Certainly not true for my part.
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It's a problem to the small fraction of golfers who have an attachment to the idea and the institution of caddies.
In other words, not really so much a problem as a niche concern. However, to all appearances that small fraction of golfers are overrepresented about 100:1 on this forum as compared to the population of golfers at large.
Brent,
I think it's deeper than that because it's one of those small things that make the big ones work. Caddies are part of the fabric of golf's rules and History. Without them in the future, the sport will lose out in the numbers of newer golfers introduced to the sport. Caddy programs ensure the possibility of passing down proper etiquette, protocols and procedures, to a next generation. A major feeder tributary to golf will be gone forever.
Sorry Adam, you are inflating that way out of proportion. What percentage of persons playing golf today do you think were a) brought into the game by being a caddie and b) would not have otherwise played golf at all? Are you imagining it is even 1% of the golfer who will tee it up somewhere today? I can't believe it would be that much.
In fact, outside of this forum (back to my original point) I have never in my life met a golfer who came to the game through caddying. Or I should say, not as far as I'm aware. There's bound to be an exception somewhere along the line. But the golfers I meet outside of this forum either think "Pebble Beach" or "Caddyshack" or "PGA Tour" when you say the word caddie. It is foreign to the experience of all but a tiny fraction of golfers.
I accept that isn't true if ones belongs to certain high-$$$ private clubs in certain metropolitan areas far from where I live. But its a big world out here and elite clubs are just a niche within that world. A niche, as I said, over-represented greatly on this forum.
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I fully understand it is not comparing apples to apples but...
Many contemplating joining a private club can't comprehend paying the initial deposit, monthly dues, additional costs for events, food & drink, etc. and yet they still have to pay a dollar amount every time they play for the caddie (even if they prefer to walk or take a pull cart). To make matters worse, the amount is roughly equivalent to what they were probably paying for a round at their local high-end daily fee. The value proposition just doesn't make sense to many prospective members.
Geoff,
Private clubs in Major metropolitan areas are in no way shape or form a value proposition. Some people are willing to pay for the ability to play a round of golf on a pristine course without tee-times in 4 hours. If one doesn't factor in the cost of mandatory caddies at such clubs in the cost equation, then one deserves what one gets: a luxury item that he can't afford.
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Brent, I'll just say that you're wrong about me and the conditions I experience the day I play. I'm a golfer that adapts. Afterall, sometimes it rains. But isn't that part of the evaluation and the awareness level being asked of me? How well a course drains and where.
As for the people in the world that play golf. They are different than golfers. A kid who caddies has a better chance to become a golfer than any other introductory avenue. And even then, in our me me me society, common courtesy ain't so common.
People make their choices. I'm a believer in allowing them the freedom to choose. If I pay 30k a year in caddy fees to play Cypress point 5 days a week, I better get 90k in utility (enjoyment) out of it, to choose that. If I play 5 great courses in a year and it costs me an extra $500 more to take a caddy, I'm lucky to have gotten to play those courses that year and view it in a non monetary perspective.
It's not as though the people in this forum have to take a caddy everyday, just when their notching their bedposts.
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Geoff,
Private clubs in Major metropolitan areas are in no way shape or form a value proposition. Some people are willing to pay for the ability to play a round of golf on a pristine course without tee-times in 4 hours. If one doesn't factor in the cost of mandatory caddies at such clubs in the cost equation, then one deserves what one gets: a luxury item that he can't afford.
Jud,
My point is that prospective members ARE factoring these costs into the equation and are voting with their feet and their checkbooks not to join a number of these clubs. These prospective members are essential to the future of these clubs and many are closing their doors or merging as a result. I disagree that clubs truly can't offer a value proposition... they just have to adapt to the changing landscape.
Keep in mind that many are willing to pay the standard initiation fee and monthly dues which obviously make up the bulk of the expense. They are not trying to rationalize joining a club on a $$/round basis which most realize is a futile exercise.
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Geoff,
It's all relative to the specific club and the specific location. Obviously some clubs are struggling and will adapt, and it will be a lot more than mandatory caddies that need to be addressed. Other clubs in the toniest burbs will continue to see strong demand and maintain a strong mandatory caddie program. I don't see mandatory caddies as the straw that breaks the camel's back in most of these situations however. It's merely a symptom of a larger problem in most instances IMO.
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I'd like someone to name one top notch private golf club in the northeast that doesn't require caddies.
This is an utterly pointless discussion. Places that like and have a tradition of caddies have them. Places that don't, don't. You are free to make your own choices with where you live and golf.
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Somehow I'd imagine your definition of "top notch" includes having caddies.
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Brent: no, my definition would be any course that people drool over (or even just speak of complementary) here. You know, PVGC, NGLA, Winged Foot, Merion, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Friar's Head, Sebonack, Garden City, the Creek, Aronimink, Baltusrol, etc etc etc. I'll also throw in old school clubs elsewhere: ANGC, Chicago Golf Club, LACC, etc.
I don't know for sure what the policies at these all these clubs are, but I know several require caddies, and bet most, if not all, do.
Don't like it? Don't join.
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Wow! I found Peper's story really offensive and full of hasty generalizations. Among the 50 or so full-time (work six or seven days per week during the season) caddies we have, there are maybe one or two of what Peper calls "professional caddies." Many caddies are "lifers," all of whom take tremendous pride in their work and are old school: they speak when spoken to, offer their opinions when asked, provide yardages and reads and any other info. each player may require, and really feel out their players to judge how much interaction there should be in between shots. Those who aren't lifers are either club pros who lost their jobs for whatever reason or former businessmen who were laid off and became caddies BECAUSE THEY HAVE FAMILIES TO SUPPORT! They swallowed their pride and now caddie for guys who were former colleagues. They lost their jobs and turned to golf. Would those of you who agree with Peper do the same? Where would you turn? Please think about this before you complain about paying a caddie. The number of high school and college kids we have continues to decline, unfortunately, but the number of recent college graduates who can't find a job and came to our club to caddy continues to rise. Do you have a problem paying these kids who are trying to make a living so they don't have to rely on their moms and dads anymore? How about the fact that in the middle of the summer, with a heat index above 100, these caddies do two loops per day, many times without a break? Can you appreciate that Peper?
Is there a caddie here or there who has a tendency to talk too much? Sure and we try to tell these guys that you have to treat each player differently. Some may like a lot of conversation while others may need a yardage to the center of the green and nothing more.
I would love to see Peper and his supporters play our course for the first time without a caddie. Good luck trying to figure out the yardages from unmarked sprinkler caps without a GPS or laser. They're not allowed. Good luck reading the greens. Good luck picking lines off the tee and on blind second shots or approaches. Good luck finding your ball in the rough or fescue. Good luck breaking 100. I don't know anything about Peper, but he sounds like one of the guys caddies loathe, the type of guy who comes to the first tee with a bad attitude, already skeptical of the caddie's ability before the guy even gives him the a yardage or a read. Apparently he works with various organizations on pace of play. As some mentioned, good luck playing places like NGLA and Merion in four hours without a caddie and having fun doing it. I'd bet he'd say to himself at least once a hole, "Where's the line?" or "Which way does this putt break?" and then wish he had a caddie to answer him.
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I'd like someone to name one top notch private golf club in the northeast that doesn't require caddies.
Fishers Island (has caddies)
Eastward Ho
Bald Peak
Wianno (has caddies)
Hyannisport (I think)
Misquamicutt
Yale
Southampton
Merion Golf Club - West Course
Maidstone - last time I played
Hidden Creek
Baltimore Country Club
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I would love to see Peper and his supporters play our course for the first time without a caddie. Good luck trying to figure out the yardages from unmarked sprinkler caps without a GPS or laser. They're not allowed. Good luck reading the greens. Good luck picking lines off the tee and on blind second shots or approaches. Good luck finding your ball in the rough or fescue. Good luck breaking 100. I don't know anything about Peper, but he sounds like one of the guys caddies loathe, the type of guy who comes to the first tee with a bad attitude, already skeptical of the caddie's ability before the guy even gives him the a yardage or a read. Apparently he works with various organizations on pace of play. As some mentioned, good luck playing places like NGLA and Merion in four hours without a caddie and having fun doing it. I'd bet he'd say to himself at least once a hole, "Where's the line?" or "Which way does this putt break?" and then wish he had a caddie to answer him.
Nate,
I will always have a soft spot for Merion, I could probably play Merion with a blind fold along with Yale. Yale is a much harder course to play without a caddie. They had them years ago at Yale, but none today.
Yale has probably 6-8 college tournaments a year, and the college guys figure it out. Merion is really not that difficult to figure out from tee to green, even 18 fairway is seen from the 17th tee.
I am a former caddie at Whitemarsh, Bala, and Newport Country Club, where I also caddied for a Senior PGA Tournament in the early days. George Pepper is a legend in golf journalism and since he lived for a year or two in St Andrews, I was surprised to read his thoughts on carts. I think he is still a member at Sleepy Hollow, my favorite course in Westchester County. His opinion, excluding carts, is one that I probably agree with. In general, I prefer playing Yale with 65 year old women with PhD's who also carry their own bag. I am not against modern caddies, I just would never join a club that requires them. I belong to Yale, Wianno, and Enniscrone and caddies are not required at any of them, but they are offered in season at two of them.
Cheers.
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I had an interesting experience last month. We were playing a practice round at La Costa and on the 8th hole a caddie just rolled up and started hanging out with our group. We didnt request it but he mustve seen an opportunity for a tip. It was actually a little annoying for the first couple holes as we were doing our own recon of the course. After about 5 holes we started talking shop and it became more enjoyable. Ive spent 10 bucks on worse things. It is sad that the only opportunities out here in So Cal are the high end resort course that have nothing more than fore caddies hearding around high handicappers. I started caddieing at age 14 at a private club and that led to a cart barn job through high school, which led to off course retail golf job in college, which led to a brief career as a club pro after college. It was a huge foundation to how I developed as an adult. I really feel my kids are missing out if they dont have that opportunity. I hope to at least get my boys to be prepared to caddie for me and learn how to interact with adults that I play with.
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Mike,
Cheers to you! A good player might be able to find his or her way around after a few plays, but the first time? No way. Of the second shot on No. 2, the tee shot or second shot on No. 4, and the tee shots on 6, 7, 8, 11, 16 or 18, you're bound to guess incorrectly when choosing your line at on at least a few of those. You'd have to walk long distances on all of those holes to get the line. And the greens? I've seen hundreds of good players fail to play enough break or play too much break and miss putts they could've easily made had they asked their caddie. I've seen hundreds more not only misjudge the amount of break, but which direction the putt breaks as well! That's something which won't get easier after a few rounds. All of that will cost a player 5 shots or more. Are there exceptions? Of course and you appear to be one of them. By the way, good luck crossing Ardmore Avenue with your blindfold on.
I recently interviewed a local club pro and former PGA Tour player who has competed in multiple majors and he said that players in the Open in June will have the most difficulty: 1. reading the subtle breaks on the greens and 2. figuring out the spots on and around the greens where they absolutely don't want to be.
Having a caddie on a course wherever everything is laid out in front of you, with yardages marked all over the place and easy greens to read may not be necessary. But a course with a lot of blind shots and hard-to-read greens? A good surely helps.
Some mentioned that they get their exercise from walking on a treadmill. Why on earth would you do that when you could get your exercise by walking a golf course? That's ridiculous.
More importantly, I find it appalling that people would only pay high school and college-aged caddies when there are caddies who are trying to pay for their own kids to go to college among many important things. That's just mind-boggling to me.
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Some mentioned that they get their exercise from walking on a treadmill. Why on earth would you do that when you could get your exercise by walking a golf course? That's ridiculous.
They are different things. walking a golf course may strengthen your leg muscles a bit, but it is not aerobic exercise.
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Mike - let's be real. Yale is a university course, even if they have members. Name a club within 45 miles of NYC that doesn't require caddies on Saturday and Sunday morning. I'm not even sure I believe your merion west and Maidstone. What time of year and what day of the week was that?
I just don't understand the incredible animosity many on this site have towards caddies. If you don't like, or can't afford, taking a caddie, fine, I have no problem with that. But to denigrate something that has been part of the game from the beginning, and has terrific people doing it currently (both kids learning and earning their way through school, as well as lifers) is just sad and disgusting to me. What is it that you are so against?
For all you waging some campaign against caddies, I feel sorry for you. I assure you, at many clubs, members enjoy taking caddies and are happy there are enough caddies to fill demand.
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At Kiawah, we give player's the option - take a caddie with no "caddie fee" (just gratuity) or carry your own bag. We don't have carts as with all the sand, that's impractical. Or, play after noon and you can take a cart (cart path only). People love it...
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At Kiawah, we give player's the option - take a caddie with no "caddie fee" (just gratuity) or carry your own bag. We don't have carts as with all the sand, that's impractical. People love it...
I'm always amazed that more clubs don't provide the same choice.
Works pretty well in those islands where golf began.
Win-win
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Name a club within 45 miles of NYC that doesn't require caddies on Saturday and Sunday morning.
Your first request was a "Top Notch" private club that does not require a caddy in the Northeast. I took that to mean places where members can carry their bag at anytime.
Your updated request is simply for a "club" that doesn't require caddies on Saturday and Sunday morning, 45 miles from the City.
The answer is most clubs require a cart or a caddie, very few (Garden City, Winged Foot, others?) are caddie only.
I'm not even sure I believe your merion west and Maidstone. What time of year and what day of the week was that?
There are no caddies at Merion West. If you want a caddie, you have to pick them up at The East and drive them to The West. If the policy has changed, I believe there are others on this thread that can update me if that has changed. Last time I played The West, it was on a Saturday morning in the summer and we walked with our own bags. It has been a number of years since I played Maidstone in the summer, but we carried our own bags. I have played a number of times in the fall, and we have always carried.
Again I am not anti-caddie, I am "pro-choice" ;), with one of the choices being that I can carry my bag anytime. This is why I like Wianno and the Streamsong complex. I normally take a caddie at Wianno. The only rule that I disagree with at SS is a forecaddie is mandatory with a cart, but that was explained to me that was due to the grow in so that golfers would not drive in sensitive areas. Certainly understandable in the first season. We walked at SS with our own bags.
Cheers.
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Mike,
I recently interviewed a local club pro and former PGA Tour player who has competed in multiple majors and he said that players in the Open in June will have the most difficulty: 1. reading the subtle breaks on the greens and 2. figuring out the spots on and around the greens where they absolutely don't want to be.
More importantly, I find it appalling that people would only pay high school and college-aged caddies when there are caddies who are trying to pay for their own kids to go to college among many important things. That's just mind-boggling to me.
1. Augusta used to require that you use their caddies at The Masters. The policy was dropped and other than an Amateur or foreign player does anyone use the Augusta caddies? The local knowledge seems like a stretch based on the fact they no PGA pros use local caddies. If their knowledge base was that valuable, the PGA players would use them. That said, I find it strange that PGA tour players don't hire local caddies or members to walk the course with them during a practice round.
2. I know this second point was not directed at me, but I will address it. Honestly, I try to contribute to alot of charities, including The Burke Foundation which is the Rhode Island Caddie Scholarship fund. Not huge numbers, but I try to be "part of the team" as a former Newport Country Club caddie. Your argument that I should pay a surplus for the value that I perceive for someone to put their kid through college does not ring true to me. Once again, I am not anti-caddie, just pro-choice. I caddied in high school and college, and then for me, it was time to move onward and join clubs. That is my perception of the perfect caddie "circle of life". I have encouraged my son to spend a summer at Sankaty Head on Nantucket. He looks at me like I am nuts. 8) Cheers.
PS. When I am in New Jersey, I like the gas prices (lower taxes) in New Jersey compared to NY and CT where I mainly buy gas. However, it is still crazy to me that there is mandatory (no self-service) gas pumping attendants in New Jersey, the land of Chris Christie!
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I have no animosity toward caddies and have met some who were awfully nice persons and solid professionals to boot.
I have no animosity toward clubs which offer caddie services or even those requiring their members and/or visitors to use caddies whether they want them or not. Golf is a big world with all sorts of preferences catered to.
My disdain is directed at people who are quite smart and well traveled enough to know better yet they act as though the entireity of golf in this country springs from the loins of a few dozen wealthy and exclusive private clubs in a handful of metropolitan areas. To say that one loves caddie programs and wishes there were more of them extant is one thing. To repeatedly insist that caddies are a universal and fundamental part of golf is ludicrous.
For my part, caddying is in the same category as golf carts. I view both as impediments to MY game while on the other hand some people quite honestly can not contemplate the game without them. Have I used caddies before? Of course. Have I ridden in golf carts? Naturally. Neither really suits my own way of playing but that's just one golfer's preference in a big, wide world.
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At Kiawah, we give player's the option - take a caddie with no "caddie fee" (just gratuity) or carry your own bag. We don't have carts as with all the sand, that's impractical. People love it...
I'm always amazed that more clubs don't provide the same choice.
Works pretty well in those islands where golf began.
Win-win
Amen to that.
I'm still utterly bemused by the inane natural of forcing a golfer to hire a bag man.
And for those still arguing that a few U.S courses require a bloody tour guide, part of the fun for many that come to play the links and heathland courses over here is in discovering the tracks for themselves. By all means feel free to hire a man if you're not capable of looking after yourself or would appreciate the assistance but don't try to defend any policy which forces the same onto me.
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Paul,
In the States, where we are lazy and fat, clubs require caddies so that there will continue to be a robust caddie program. If you don't require them, most people will ride, some will carry or push and the odd group that actually wants caddies will have to arrange for them in advance and hope they are available when school's not in session. You may not understand or like this situation, but that's what it is. For the umpteenth time, high-end U.S. private clubs in fancy zip codes are a luxury item. The cost of required caddies or forecaddies is part of the price of doing business at these clubs. You might also think that the $50,000 initiation fee and $10,000 yearly dues are ridiculous, as many of us do. If you don't like it and/or can't afford it, you can cue up with the rest of us riff-raff for a five hour rolling booze cruise at your favorite public dogtrack. 8) I love the GB&I model, but it's a different culture, different politics and a different real-estate market. For better AND worse, we are not GB&I.
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I like taking caddies but don't like at all being forced to take a caddie.
The Evans Scholars are one of the best things in golf. I was the youngest (at the time) Life Member of the Evans Scholars and still support them today. This program is terrific and really has earned the support of all in golf.
Depending on the mood, the day, the people I'm playing with and other variables, I may carry, push a cart, take a caddie, or ride. I really like having the choice.
It can be a pain to drop $200-300 on an "A" caddie, and I certainly expect good service when visiting a place that makes me do it - I've only had a handful of poor caddies in 25 years.
Where available, I'll take a kid every time.
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Mike,
Cheers to you! A good player might be able to find his or her way around after a few plays, but the first time? No way. Of the second shot on No. 2, the tee shot or second shot on No. 4, and the tee shots on 6, 7, 8, 11, 16 or 18, you're bound to guess incorrectly when choosing your line at on at least a few of those. You'd have to walk long distances on all of those holes to get the line. And the greens? I've seen hundreds of good players fail to play enough break or play too much break and miss putts they could've easily made had they asked their caddie. I've seen hundreds more not only misjudge the amount of break, but which direction the putt breaks as well! That's something which won't get easier after a few rounds. All of that will cost a player 5 shots or more. Are there exceptions? Of course and you appear to be one of them. By the way, good luck crossing Ardmore Avenue with your blindfold on.
I recently interviewed a local club pro and former PGA Tour player who has competed in multiple majors and he said that players in the Open in June will have the most difficulty: 1. reading the subtle breaks on the greens and 2. figuring out the spots on and around the greens where they absolutely don't want to be.
Having a caddie on a course wherever everything is laid out in front of you, with yardages marked all over the place and easy greens to read may not be necessary. But a course with a lot of blind shots and hard-to-read greens? A good surely helps.
Some mentioned that they get their exercise from walking on a treadmill. Why on earth would you do that when you could get your exercise by walking a golf course? That's ridiculous.
More importantly, I find it appalling that people would only pay high school and college-aged caddies when there are caddies who are trying to pay for their own kids to go to college among many important things. That's just mind-boggling to me.
Nate
I come from the land of quirk, with blind holes a plenty. Here we even have the odd hole that requires you to drive over a building or chip over a wall onto a green, you may have heard of them. And yet ninety-nine percent of golfers over here manage to get round without a caddy. That leads me to wonder what kind of courses you have over there ?!
But more to the point, isn't golf about using your head ? If someone tells you the yardage, tells you what club to hit, what the line of the putt is, is that really golf or is it just swinging a club ?
No doubt its a culture thing, but I find it appalling (your word) that someone like you wants to debase what is basically a game by reducing it an industry we are compelled to support.
Niall
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I have no animosity toward caddies and have met some who were awfully nice persons and solid professionals to boot.
I have no animosity toward clubs which offer caddie services or even those requiring their members and/or visitors to use caddies whether they want them or not. Golf is a big world with all sorts of preferences catered to.
My disdain is directed at people who are quite smart and well traveled enough to know better yet they act as though the entireity of golf in this country springs from the loins of a few dozen wealthy and exclusive private clubs in a handful of metropolitan areas. To say that one loves caddie programs and wishes there were more of them extant is one thing. To repeatedly insist that caddies are a universal and fundamental part of golf is ludicrous.
For my part, caddying is in the same category as golf carts. I view both as impediments to MY game while on the other hand some people quite honestly can not contemplate the game without them. Have I used caddies before? Of course. Have I ridden in golf carts? Naturally. Neither really suits my own way of playing but that's just one golfer's preference in a big, wide world.
well said that man
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Niall,
Peper basically said that the only way he could justify paying a caddie was if the caddie was a kid trying to earn money for an education. A lot of people on this site agreed with him. That's what is appalling to me when, like I said before, there are grown men who lost their jobs and turned to caddying to support their families and in many cases, pay for their children's education or men who have made their living as caddies since they were kids or recent college graduates perhaps trying to pay off student loans.
I'm okay with giving golfers choices: caddie, cart, carry, but to say the only caddies should be high school/college kids is crazy. Peper writes "Such obscene fees might be easier to stomach were the recipients latter-day Lowerys—enterprising young kids with a love of golf and a need for some extra cash to finance their education." How does anyone not see that as offensive to the type of caddies I mentioned earlier?
99 percent of the time, a caddie will give you as much information as you ask. If you don't want him to club you, he won't. If you don't want him to read a putt, he won't. If he starts reading a putt for you or telling you what club to hit and you don't want him to, you can tell him so. I'm not sure that allowing the caddy to give you a raw yardage and then letting the player figure out exactly how far it will play and what club to hit comprises the integrity of the game. I don't believe getting a line off the tee or on an approach does either.
I've never played golf overseas, but it wouldn't be fun to guess where to hit the ball when facing a blind shot only to find out that you guessed wrong and ended up in deep rough or a hazard, especially if it's the only time you might get to play the course. I could laugh it off once or twice, but I'm not sure it would be so amusing if it happened much more than that. How does that not make sense?
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I just don't understand the incredible animosity many on this site have towards caddies
I am happy to accept caddies for what they are but it isn't hard for me to understand why people don't like the concept. Caddies are basically servants and servants are a product of societies with big wage disparities, a very poor underclass and to a lesser extent slavery. Anyone who is middle class or who sees the large middle class of western society as what separates us from developing countries is possibly going to be uncomfortable entering into a master/servant relationship with another adult.
When Nate states that a good caddy is one who "speaks when he is spoken to" can you not see that this is a type of relationship that the majority of society does not have with other mature human beings. Not these days, anyway. It is how people used to talk about their children or their slaves.
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I normally try to stay out of these caddie battles,and am a fan of the UK/Irish model of choice of trolley, carry, or caddie.
I'm not a fan of carts as an alternative to caddies (and I would give the cart away for free to a medically disabled or age appropriate rider, on the condition that they either take or look after the caddie in their group)
I must say while I understand some of the points Peper was so awkwardly trying to make, that I found much of the article, and certainly the tone, quite offensive.
Not sure where Peper thinks these schoolkid caddies are going to come from weekdays in April, May September, or October.
The fact is at a small amount of certain clubs, caddies are desired and expected. Caddies have to be provided for those that want them when the kids are unavailable.
Of course we all like to support Evans Scholarship programs and the like, but denying the need for post school age caddies is completely unrealistic, and to hold it against the more mature caddy who's trying to pay his bills like anyone else is well, just wrong. They are an integral part of any caddie program through a majority of the season and can't just go away because school's out and you want a 15 year old bag carrier. I'd say he simply hasn't thought about it, but it certainly comes off smug.
Many posters bring up legitimate issues regarding caddies, and as I stated I'm not a fan of them being mandatory, but I understand why many places(including us, but I'm working on it) have the mandatory policy to keep caddies around.
Even though it's difficult, it seems that if caddies weren't mandatory, and carts were not allowed as a substitute, that the golf staff could soon enough determine what the actual demand is, and offer the appropriate amount of caddies accordingly.
It's something I wrestle with daily, but our members aren't sensitive to the cumulative caddie fees of a season, and we get almost no requests to NOT take a caddie . My guess is there are some places where it becomes a real potential member eliminating issue.
Comparing caddies to a rest room attendant is unduly harsh ::) ::) ::), it's amazing a former caddie (or anyone of any decency) would use that analogy.
It's great that George got to go to Scotland, and his frugality ;) was further enhanced while he was there.
Meanwhile there are plenty of players who request and demand the use of caddies, and those caddies have to make a living, and last I checked, a caddie can't pay his rent in The Hamptons (or anywhere else) on $38/day. (and that assumes they get out every day, which they don't) Do you think George knows what minimum wage is? throw in the obligatory hour on the range and lunch at the turn(to say nothing of caddieshack waiting time), and they are well below that at $38. George may zip around in his cart in 3 hours, but that's not what's happening at a destination high end course with a fourball with knee high fescue, particularly when the course is not crowded and guests are enjoying their relaxed day in a leisurely manner.
Ironically, I share many of Brent and Mike Sweeney's opinions on this subject, but I still find this article offensive and poorly thought out.
Not sure that matters though, as I'm pretty sure GP has a similar opinion of golf pros.
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I've never played golf overseas, but it wouldn't be fun to guess where to hit the ball when facing a blind shot only to find out that you guessed wrong and ended up in deep rough or a hazard, especially if it's the only time you might get to play the course. I could laugh it off once or twice, but I'm not sure it would be so amusing if it happened much more than that. How does that not make sense?
Nate,
I have never played Merion Golf Club without a member. All the members I know, know the course very well. They can and do give advice to their guest, so I just don't see this as a fair comparison with unescorted rounds overseas. Like many here, when I played Cypress Point it was in an unescorted foursome. For lots and lots of reasons, caddies are needed for those rounds.
I have probably hosted 50+ guys here and (and one girl :D) at Yale over the years. The blind shots at Yale outnumber Merion and many of the holes are played through trees similar to Pine Valley, so it is typically hard to see future holes like you can at Merion. The starters at Yale try to get visitors teamed up with regulars when they can, similar to overseas. I will acknowledge that rounds are longer at Yale, but that is also due to its status as a university course with lots of visitors.
I am not asking Merion Golf Club to change their policy for caddies. It is a special place in golf, but it is not typical in the world of golf.
One of my cousin's husband caddied at Merion during some slow months for his business during the recession, so I understand why you are taking this personally. However, it is a golf conversation, not a Merion Golf Club discussion.
George Peper expressed a consumer choice like we all make dozens of times per week. Tomorrow morning, I will take the subway to work in NYC. It does not mean that I have something against Pakistani cab drivers, but many here would argue that I should. :D
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One aspect of this debate has not been touched on. The escalating price of caddies.
When I joined my club seven years ago, the going rate for a caddy was $60, tip included. Then the rate was 65, 70, 75, and now $80. It's a little disconcerting that the rate has gone up about 30% over the seven years, but my own income has probably gone down the same amount!
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There are few things I love more than hitting a nice approach shot then walking 120 or 180 yards with nothing but a putter.
But the cost of caddies at most places (when I rarely play them) just doesn't make a caddy worth it to me.
Given the number of retired guys who are starters or marshall for little or no pay and just playing privileges and for getting away from their wives and onto the golf course, I wish we'd see more 4-bag carts driven by retirees to facilitate walking.
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Given the number of retired guys who are starters or marshall for little or no pay and just playing privileges and for getting away from their wives and onto the golf course, I wish we'd see more 4-bag carts driven by retirees to facilitate walking.
Fabulous thought, but unlikely to ever be SOP. Talk about a win-win: How much more palatable would it be to fork over just $20 instead of $80 for the privilege of walking unencumbered, and for the cart driver, pocketing $80 in cash for tooling around with the walking foursome in a golf cart, all the while reading a paperback or the newspaper while waiting on the tee, while they were putting etc, would be "found money."
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:'( ::) >:(
It's disheartening to see some of the disdain for loopers on this thread. As previously posted it seems rooted in economics more than anywhere else. No doubt the cost is prohibitive at your home club , at double or triple the cost of a golf cart. Yet castigating all who work as caddies is surely not fair.
I would ask suggest that a round with an exceptional caddy , who does his job and keeps quiet when he or she should , is quite enjoyable and a special treat for many. For those who can afford it on a regular basis you are blessed.
I refer back to a long dormant post where we really debated the merits and value of a caddy program. I proffered that a fore caddy seemed to fit the American golf model rather well , particularly if the rate was reasonable. The caddy could enhance pace of play, fill divots rake traps etc etc and properly schooled be a real benefit to the club. Even someone carrying his own bag could employ this service, as the fore caddy could move their bag on cut overs and find errant tee shots for all.
As one who benefited greatly from my experiences as a caddy , I can't imagine the disdain so,many here have for the art.
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Archie,
For the most part it's not disdain, it's simple economics. Most of us don't have $100 for a greens fee these days, not to mention a spare Benjamin for a caddie. I love playing with caddies, particularly given my aging back and knees, but a motorized trolley pays for itself in half a season. It just ain't the same as when you threw the neighborhood kid a few bucks to tote your bag. Aside from playing in a big money match or calcutta tournament as a guest with a looper who can legitimately save you a stroke or two, there's simply no value added economic justification for paying $80-$100 a bag for the vast majority of players. It's become a nice antiquated luxury item for a niche market. When you're playing a $2 Nassau, paying $80 for a caddie is simply charity, and personally I prefer to choose my own charities privately than to be told by the company where to contribute. If you're playing for a dollar a yard it's another matter altogether.
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Disappointing perspective indeed.
The costs appear to be the problem. I'd agree if all you are getting from your caddy is yardages and Bullshit reads.
The last paragraph is indeed the saddest of all.
It's not the money. It's the RECIPIENT of the money. I enjoy paying kids. I do not enjoy paying some alcoholic ne'er do well who has taken over what should be a child's gateway into the work world. It's the same reason I REFUSE to tip the guy who flies by my house every morning at 6:15 and hurls a newspaper out of his beat-up station wagon when he has the gall to stick a Christmas tip envelope into my newspaper. That should be a kid on a bike.
Ivory Tower critic is certainly an appropriate moniker. Any real insight into the lives and responsibilities of those you belittle and have such disdain for? I have the same husband and wife who have delivered my morning paper for the last ten years. They have five kids and two ailing parents that live with them and both work full time jobs besides the paper duty. Jeez I guess I shouldn't tip them any more after reading your post. ::) I won't even bother to get into the caddie argument as we have done that dance before.
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These threads always bring out the desire of some to be waited upon hand and foot like a rich man except somehow to have it done for a fraction of a living wage. And if necessary, paper it over with "helping a kid get started" or giving a retiree a chance to work for free golf. Wow.
When I was a "kid" I hardly knew the game of golf existed. The way for young people in my stratum to "get started" was mowing lawns. Ten bucks for a big job that took 2+ hours, maybe five bucks for one I could get done in an hour and half.
Geez I wish I could get my lawn done today for five or ten dollar. I have to pay $50/week for a professional service to keep the yard in good shape. But I don't try to cast around for a way to get by for a quarter that amount by "helping" some young person willing to work cheaply.
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??? ??? ???
Jud , , I agree its mostly economics, no worries. I totally get and made it quite clear in all my previous posts. Having a caddy on those special rounds is a treat , no doubt.
However , I certainly feel that there is more than a little negativity that is misplaced here. Most of us play at clubs that allow walking , or cart riding sans caddies, so why the vitriol. I think the clubs that maintain caddy programs should be applauded , as many of us would have never played golf if we weren't able to ,are a few quid looping. If caddies are bad at premier clubs , its managements fault , as they are certainly well paid these days. Those that don't cut it should be quickly released.
Like we discussed , there are lots of ways to enjoy golf, so lets not be quick to dismiss a nice service that some can afford and appreciate. We all can't go to the best restaurants or drive a fancy BMW , and that's just the way it is.
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I haven't wished to give this thread more oxygen, but this exchange broke my resolve.
Given the number of retired guys who are starters or marshall for little or no pay and just playing privileges and for getting away from their wives and onto the golf course, I wish we'd see more 4-bag carts driven by retirees to facilitate walking.
Fabulous thought, but unlikely to ever be SOP. Talk about a win-win: How much more palatable would it be to fork over just $20 instead of $80 for the privilege of walking unencumbered, and for the cart driver, pocketing $80 in cash for tooling around with the walking foursome in a golf cart, all the while reading a paperback or the newspaper while waiting on the tee, while they were putting etc, would be "found money."
That is, until the shots of the players in the group comprise the corner points of a 300 sq yard perimeter. A is long down the middle, B is 30 yards behind him, C has sliced 30 yards in the right rough and D has hit a quick short grounding hook that is 10 yards in the short left rough...which only happens like, every third hole...on JUST the tee shots.
And there's "Old Sam" reading his newspaper, being called to and fro, players sometimes taking bags off and humping themselves to the places carts, even Sam's, can't go...Change of club? Sorry, he's roaring away to player C on the right. But wait, his hearing aid happened to be turned "On" (his wife was visiting relatives that day), he hears you and does a long, slow, cautious spin to return...the wind has died down, you decide to keep both 7 and 8 iron, so he doesn't have to be called back...you lay the other in a towel so it doesn't touch the dewy, irrigated, or muddy turf...wait, he has your towel...Tot late, he's just getting to C who picks a club, stands over the ball, then looks up at you and shouts, "Who's away?". The group back up at the tee box is egged on by their "park bench retiree" who points to the Links mag story he's reading..."Shooting at Golf Course: Faster Pace or Tighter Gun-Control Restrictions?"
Please, those of you who agree with Peper, and who don't like Mandatory Caddies policies (cost, interference, service, D-I-Y preferences, home course) just call for the elimination of Caddies, because so many of the classified, categorized programs I've heard here are going to ruin it for both you and your debate opponents. Not just this "retiree" scheme... The "young lad" types can't service but 20-30% of the golfing days and are the least experienced at the actual trade to be any sort of "aid" for you at all, without mandatory caddies, there will rarely be enough for those who want or don't mind taking and paying for caddies, and who need them to take care of those thiings they cannot do consistently: finding the ball, raking bunkers. For the few that can expect to be sent out often under this policy, there will be competition among the handful that want or feel they need caddies and nothing is so deleterious to the atmosphere of the club than any number of members feeling one group is being given preferential treatment by the administration of club policy.
If you don't like or prefer or find a needlessness for caddying, just say so and call for their elimination. The price isn't going down whether the 30% increases over the last seven years, or Peper's scale of $5 = $38 really mean anything, so don't attempt to water-down the service by lowering its cost or who provides it. Either you want em or you don't, no matter whether they are free or not. Because if you would utilize them if they were free or part of your dues structure, like employees, then all you're talking about is trying to engineer the market. Please go to your cable company or oil company and do it there, before you come ambling down the caddie yard.
While I don't have empirical numbers about caddying clubs total, anecdotally the concentration in select American districts is enormous (Met, Boston, Philly, Chicago, LA, South Florida, etc) but nationwide or world wide, I'd be amazed if more than 15% of private clubs have caddies at all. In my extensive experience in this Met area, the clubs that do not have mandatory policies contain the worst caddies that have been referenced here. There's nothing to keep a better caddie there, income is less consistent and likely reduced on a gross basis. Why wouldn't you go to one that does mandate the use of caddies at broad hours of the day (Open to 3pm).
Oh and as to the young lads once more, I was a caddiemaster for 16 years. You folks who are partial to this element should know that the ratio of parents treating the local course as "day care" as opposed to "healthy summer employment" is about 80/20. There is nothing worse for the outside environment of a member's private golf club, to which the Pro and the Caddiemaster are charged to maintain, than 12-20 teenagers sitting on a bench because play is not robust that day.
cheers
vk
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I don't hold any vitriol toward career caddies. I'm not angry at them.
I do think it's important to protect opportunities for young people to work. Caddying is good work for a teenager. They're outside, getting a bit of exercise, learning a bit about customer service, and providing a service at a sustainable rate that helps to preserve golf as a walking game. The young caddies that I've met are good kids with firm handshakes. I'm happy to be a member of one of the top Evans Scholar clubs in the state of Ohio, and I think our caddy program is to the mutual benefit of the club and the kids. I also like that I can walk in the evenings without a cart or caddie if I want a little solitude, want to just practice a bit, or just feel like spending less money. Caddies are still a luxury for me, even when they're half the cost of a career caddie at a resort or high-end private.
It's true that a lot of adult caddies are guys who are working hard to pay their bills and feed their kids, and I appreciate that. However, those guys are also qualified to do a LOT of other jobs. The same isn't true for teenagers, who have pretty limited work options. Again, I think protecting the opportunity for young people to do certain jobs in certain industries is important.
It's also true that a lot of clubs or resorts prefer adult caddies and consider the quality of their service better. I don't necessarily disagree, but I often find the value is worse. It's silly that I pay $90 at a place like Pebble Beach for a double-bagging caddie who gives me wrong reads that I didn't ask for while it only costs me $35 at my home course for a kid who stays within 5 yards of me the entire round and gives me exactly the information I want from him.
In the end, all I want is value. Sometimes value is a Cadillac that's fun to drive and more comfortable than my living room. Sometimes it's a Ford that gets good gas mileage and lasts 15 years. I'm happy with either of those options. But if I get stuck with a Cadillac that costs twice what the Ford costs, makes ceaseless noise, and takes two minutes to start every other time I turn the ignition, then I'm a lot less likely to visit that dealership in the future.
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VK
Maybe I got the wrong impression, but I don't think anybody is calling for caddies to be eliminated. I certainly don't wish to see that happen. There are plenty of places to play if I or anybody else doesn't want to pay for a caddie. To be honest, the situation of mandatory caddies rarely arises for me so I am indifferent if anything. I only said my preference is for kid bag carries. This is in the main because I don't really want paid advice on playing golf. I treat golf very much as a game and don't much see the point of taking away the brain/guesswork while playing.
Ciao
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Good caddies are nice, but they are a luxury item.
+1
+2
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VK--First, I greatly enjoyed your fond reminiscence of Pete the Caddy on an earlier page of this thread, and certainly appreciate your passion for the art of caddying.
One simple point I will make in regards to "Old Sam." Speaking only for myself, to me 80--85% of a caddy's value is carrying the bag allowing me to walk unencumbered. (Precisely the reason I will often latch my golf bag to my buddy's cart, and walk the GC while he rides.) The other 15--20% is cleaning the ball, a little conversation, maybe spotting the occasional errant shot..but the real value to me is just the walk sans bag. That's why I thought Jason Conner made a good point, an idea that makes some sense at the right time and place.
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Disappointing perspective indeed.
The costs appear to be the problem. I'd agree if all you are getting from your caddy is yardages and Bullshit reads.
The last paragraph is indeed the saddest of all.
It's not the money. It's the RECIPIENT of the money. I enjoy paying kids. I do not enjoy paying some alcoholic ne'er do well who has taken over what should be a child's gateway into the work world. It's the same reason I REFUSE to tip the guy who flies by my house every morning at 6:15 and hurls a newspaper out of his beat-up station wagon when he has the gall to stick a Christmas tip envelope into my newspaper. That should be a kid on a bike.
Ivory Tower critic is certainly an appropriate moniker. Any real insight into the lives and responsibilities of those you belittle and have such disdain for? I have the same husband and wife who have delivered my morning paper for the last ten years. They have five kids and two ailing parents that live with them and both work full time jobs besides the paper duty. Jeez I guess I shouldn't tip them any more after reading your post. ::) I won't even bother to get into the caddie argument as we have done that dance before.
Uh, yeah, Tim, I actually DO have real insight into the lives and respoinsbilities of those who have stolen childrens' jobs. I actually WAS a paperboy. I actually WAS a caddy. I appreciated those jobs as a kid as a way to make a little money so I could have a few bucks in my pocket as a kid. It really doesn't matter that you have a sad story to tell about this husband and wife. Yes, it's sad. But so is a kid who wants a job who can't get one. I could just as easily tell stories about children of parents like these two, whose only chance at going to college and bettering themselves is to work a paper route and caddy to save up enough money for college. That's sad too. Even sadder in fact, because there are fewer and fewer kids out there that fit this description.
So you are going to equate a young paperboy/caddie from the suburbs to those that have had to take these jobs under the most trying of circumstances. What was I thinking because you DO have real insight. ::)You really do like to paint with a broad brush when it suits your cause no? Further are there a lot of middle/high school kids you know that are getting up at 4 or 5 in the morning to deliver the morning editions of most city newspapers. Dollars to donuts you got out of school and delivered some late afternoon small town evening paper.
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Niall,
Peper basically said that the only way he could justify paying a caddie was if the caddie was a kid trying to earn money for an education. A lot of people on this site agreed with him. That's what is appalling to me when, like I said before, there are grown men who lost their jobs and turned to caddying to support their families and in many cases, pay for their children's education or men who have made their living as caddies since they were kids or recent college graduates perhaps trying to pay off student loans.
I'm okay with giving golfers choices: caddie, cart, carry, but to say the only caddies should be high school/college kids is crazy. Peper writes "Such obscene fees might be easier to stomach were the recipients latter-day Lowerys—enterprising young kids with a love of golf and a need for some extra cash to finance their education." How does anyone not see that as offensive to the type of caddies I mentioned earlier?
99 percent of the time, a caddie will give you as much information as you ask. If you don't want him to club you, he won't. If you don't want him to read a putt, he won't. If he starts reading a putt for you or telling you what club to hit and you don't want him to, you can tell him so. I'm not sure that allowing the caddy to give you a raw yardage and then letting the player figure out exactly how far it will play and what club to hit comprises the integrity of the game. I don't believe getting a line off the tee or on an approach does either.
I've never played golf overseas, but it wouldn't be fun to guess where to hit the ball when facing a blind shot only to find out that you guessed wrong and ended up in deep rough or a hazard, especially if it's the only time you might get to play the course. I could laugh it off once or twice, but I'm not sure it would be so amusing if it happened much more than that. How does that not make sense?
Nate
IMO, Pepper basically got it spot on as far as your average UK golfer is concerned. They would laugh at the idea of needing a caddy to get round a course, and yes using your intuition to keep a ball in play when playing a blind or semi-blind shot is part of it. Give it a go, I'm sure you'll find golf much more enjoyable when using your brain as opposed being told what to do.
With regards to employing any caddy who happens to have a sob story, are we supposed to interview them before hiring to determine whether they are suitably disadvantaged to qualify for the job ? I don't often agree with Jud on this forum but he hits the nail on the head when he says if its about charity then at least let me choose the charity I give to. That in essence is what Pepper is saying in his article.
Niall
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VK:
The simple answer is to keep the lads out of school completely. There is plenty of reading material available such as old stroke saver books, February 1998 editions of Golf Magazine and the Daily Racing Form. They can do their ciphering keeping the scorecard for their players. As for physical education, what could be better for a boy than five hour walks in the heat while learning to smoke Camels stolen from the older caddies?
This way the lads earn a living, get an education and the club has caddies available season long. Win/Win. no?
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JM,
A humorous scenario and one that a handful of the 400 school-boys I've had to supervise could have have advantaged.
Basically, you're describing Hogan, Nelson, Trevino and Chi-chi at the head of the class of several others.
And to treat your proposal with a greater degree of sobriety for just a moment...
From ages 5 to 17, minors should be in school, but after that...there are a ton of young men and some young women who would do far, far better for themselves by looping for 5 years after high school than they would scraping by in college. I say this as a former caddiemaster, current veteran club caddie and teacher in both state university and community college: there are way too many post-adolescents wasting their time in "higher education."
To the respondents since my morning post, I do not think for one moment you are hostile to caddies or are a grinch, I'm merely pointing out that these in-between policies or categories of worthiness, capability, etc...are futile to pursue, because its such a provincial tradition, unique to each district, place or income class of club we're talking about. There isn't a generality to be had or a general thesis that can be supported. It changes the moment you go down the street.
I think to comment so negatively from afar about an entire thing (as if George Peper could sit atop the world of it) is so silly. It's just mere destructive curmudegonship posing as authoritative wisdom. A chance to vent because he has the forum, and imo, a mis-use of his reputation, even in one article.
No matter what happens to me in terms of economy (it's tragic now, but might be fine in a couple of years, who knows) I am going to be looping somewhere in the summer. That would be true even if I hit the biggest Powerball I would feel a hole in my life if I couldn't engage the people and places i have known to such good effect for so very long. But that's me.
cheers
vk
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Quite revealing that noone has even attempted to refute David Elvins' post above.
Taking a caddie might be fun every once in a while on an unfamiliar course, but I wouldn't want to do it regularly, whatever the cost. At my home club, I'm very content carrying or pulling my own bag, reading my own putts on greens I've played maybe a thousand times, and talking to my playing partners rather than feeling obliged to engage my caddie in conversation. I cannot envisage a single benefit that a caddie would provide at that course.
Caddies are an anachronism from golf's origins as a game for the aristocracy and gentry. Clearly there are others who have a different view, but can we please stop attacking the strawman of objection to caddies being an economic issue instead of an individual preference?
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No matter what happens to me in terms of economy (it's tragic now, but might be fine in a couple of years, who knows) I am going to be looping somewhere in the summer. That would be true even if I hit the biggest Powerball I would feel a hole in my life if I couldn't engage the people and places i have known to such good effect for so very long. But that's me.
Nice post. I hope it works out.
Every-time I walk into The Wharf Deli in Newport, Rhode Island, I think of my days at Newport Country Club and my buddies that used to hang there with me from NCC and elsewhere.
I got engaged to my wife at Castle Hill, a 3 wood from NCC:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7S2ZxyJv8B4/UCw4fHqgO2I/AAAAAAAAD08/Qv7VzuJRA-4/s1600/2009-08-10-BE043127.jpg)
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a young Jack Crisham, a young Victor Kmetz, a young Paul Thomas, a young Shelly Solow, a young Tim Bert or Mike Hendren or John Kavanaugh or Gib Papazian or Ran Morissett or Ryan Potts or Jeff Goldman or Jud Tigerman or Matt Cohn or even a young you.... hell, even a young Terry Lavin. :). And forgive me for all the guys whose names I have skipped solely for brevity purposes...
Give me a shack full of THOSE guys. Nobody I know would have the slightest issue with that. And that's the point.
Shivas,
How many of these guys actually carried a bag other than their own?
While we are on it, how many bags have your carried for money and for how many years? Senior PGA tournaments? Amateur tournaments? Let's see what you got!
This is similar to the Philly Test. How many guys from Philly have actually played Walnut Lane?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/
I am saying you got nothin other than preppy BS from the North Shore. :D I know Kavanaugh never carried a bag for money. :-*
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Am I alone in the view that you and your caddy are a team working together in an effort to play your best golf and post the best score you can?
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I carried a bag for money from 12 thru the summer before my senior year in college. Somewhere around 800 bags, I guess. Twice a day sometimes, but rarely. Most days just once. Hardly ever doubles; only in emergencies. When I wasn't carrying, I worked in the pro shop - desk boy, bag rat, range picker, the whole schmear. Sorry Mike, but you can't honestly lay the do-nothing, country club brat label on me. Yeah, I played plenty of golf at my club, but only after I earned my keep working at another. (I did have a lot of privileges at the club I worked at, though; I didn't have to sit in the shack waiting for a loop; by high school, I was allowed to practice at the range or chip and putt in my down time, something for which I will alway be grateful). I carried in a lot of state opens, Ams, etc., even an Open.
Okay, okay but Kavanaugh is not helping your average! :D
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Mike Vegis - "you just pay the tip" does that mean the resort is paying the caddie his fee as an employee? As a Brit I'd think a generous tip to be $25 but is that all he is getting, should the "tip" really be $75-100?
Nate - the no distance on sprinkler thing is all about protecting the caddies, remove caddies and you'd soon have the numbers. How did you find playing the links courses in GB&I? Did you ever take 5 hours because you were confronted by a blind shot and tricky greens.
My worst experience with lazy unprofessional caddies was at a very famous Long Island club yet they still expected their $100 per bag.
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8) ::) ;)
I think Peper's cheap , and has become a curmudgeon, I will forever read his work with a jaundiced eye!
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Well just when you think you have heard the worst about caddie-golf...along comes Mr. Peper with his disgraceful take on caddies. As someone who has had first-hand interaction with Mr. Peper on a golf course, while caddying for others in the group, I'll give you some insights to the source of those comments. I also know others who know him well, so these comments will have a broad perspective.
As a man who claims he caddied, and saw benefits from the enterprise...his take is the height of hypocrisy. He is known for his thrift. He even admits to it. It is this element that most drives his thoughts on caddies. He doesn't want to pay for something that is part of playing the game at certain places. When you go to a high-end dining facilty, you don't expect to pay fast food prices and order your food at the cash register. If you don't want to take a caddie or deal with the vermin, don't play or join those places.
What is most disturbing to me is that while he has earned a HANDSOME living from the game...for decades...he has NO CONCEPT of caddie golf's titanic, positive impacts on the game, throughout its history. He isn't alone. MOST of the those leading the administrative bodies and golf-related companies are CLUELESS when it comes to understanding how much they owe to caddy-golf.
Need proof? Let's remove from the R&A and USGA museums every artifact that has a connection to caddies, Remove every champion's name from the trophies of the various tournaments, Major and otherwise, that found the game as a caddie, or were taught or helped to the win by someone who caddied. What remains? Some DAMN barren space everwhere you look folks! But because they can't profit from it instantly, they ain't interested in acknowledging the truth or re-investing in supporting caddie-golf wherever financially viable.
This is especially true for George's take regarding his understanding of the evolution and widening appeal that American golf enjoyed before it turned to the excessive, unhealthy profit-driven mantra that has the game where it is today. Need more proof? Take a good, long look at his Golf in America book. Other than several scant references to players such as Francis Ouimet, Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson having been caddies, there isn't a single word dedicated to that aspect of the game which was CENTRAL to how golf emerged and grew in America. It is as if caddies DIDN'T EXIST! Go ahead, look at the reference portion of the book and try and find the pages that references to "caddies" are found....ZERO!
Any scribe that really wanted to get it right, and share a complete story on American golf, couldn't possibly overlook that element to the degree he did. He WASN'T and ISN'T interested in that reality. Sadly, George... and many others, including quite a few on this site, only care about...THEIR golf, THEIR immediate connection to the game, and have little care for its future health beyond what it gives THEM.
I get it. Try to play the best places for the least amount of money possible. If we can flush the caddie from the equation it gets even better...for ME! Don't touch the sacred cow that is cart revenue stateside, and heaven forbide, a UK golfer might have to spend for something that they haven't done in their country.
Since George has decided to get personal with his assessment that caddies are basically a vestige of yesteryear, I'll recount a personal, firsthand, weeklong experience I had with him during my many years caddying at Pebble Beach. It was the mid-90's, he and Greg Hopkins, then-President of Cleveland Golf, were co-sponsoring the annual Holiday Father-Son Tournament that was held there for many years over the Christmas/ New Year break. It was my favorite event there. A wonderful opportunity for the family to come and play golf together. The gals loved it as they got to tear it up and rack up the credit cards in Carmel. Everybody won and it just was always a great week.
Well I'm working for Greg and his two engaging sons. We are paired with George and his nice, young son. His boy was maybe 13 or so. The weather was variable that week, as it often is that time of year, so we were all playing out of the carts so we could carry extra towels/gear and get off the golf course quickly if one of the frequent, vicious squalls came in. George DIDN'T take a caddie at all that week. I remember thinking...what a beautiful opportunity... WASTED... to introduce his boy to how one can work together with a caddie, to play and enjoy the game. Spare me the he might have got a poor caddie crap. He was co-sponsoring the event and would have gotten a good one had he been interested. As it was a competition, I couldn't offer to help and he wasn't interested in taking one. That was clear. He was polite, but indifferent to me during our three rounds together. It was if I didn't exist.
I had/have no animosity toward George. Rather it saddens me that he is so disconnected from what caddie-golf has meant...and will continue to provide...the game. That fact that he has been a prominent voice in the game, yet has so little regard for the greatest single source of golf's champons and differencemakers...is profoundly troubling to me. His take, given his platform, nourishes the cancer-like belief that caddie-golf has an insignificant role in modern golf. He... and others that share that view...ARE DEAD WRONG! History confirms it.
How's the health of the game George? Please look beyond your wallet. How is the game doing supporting caddie-golf, that most consistent vein of passionate contributors? You know, the one that allowed tens of thousands of those from modest means, WORLDWIDE, from the U.K. to America, India, Argentina, China and many other nations to earn, learn and REMAIN in the game.
Caddie-golf deserves an apology George. Especially from someone who has been fortunate enough to reap the rich rewards, financial and otherwise, that you have benefited from... following those monstrous footsteps.
Respectfully,
Kris
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Anybody looking for a copy of 'True Links'? I've got a copy I'm looking to get rid of....
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a young Jack Crisham, a young Victor Kmetz, a young Paul Thomas, a young Shelly Solow, a young Tim Bert or Mike Hendren or John Kavanaugh or Gib Papazian or Ran Morissett or Ryan Potts or Jeff Goldman or Jud Tigerman or Matt Cohn or even a young you.... hell, even a young Terry Lavin. :). And forgive me for all the guys whose names I have skipped solely for brevity purposes...
Give me a shack full of THOSE guys. Nobody I know would have the slightest issue with that. And that's the point.
Mike,
I caddied for 8 yrs at Beverly and was very lucky to get The Evans Scholarship to Marquette Univ. The WGA was incredible from a generosity standpoint- they even paid my 1st year of Dental School. This past year Beverly had a total of 10 caddies win the Scholarship - one of whom is Terry Lavin's nephew. Great success story for our club- I can't remember a year with so many of our caddies winning the Evans.Personally, it changed my life allowing me a shot at a great education that my blue colllar parents could never have afforded. Caddying was a great job but I like to see teenagers use it as a stepping stone in life. Just my opinion. As a rule , I always take a caddy but prefer a high school or college aged one. I read my own putts and rarely need help with yardages as I know Beverly pretty well- still remeber the yardages from 30 yrs ago caddying. Great summer job -maybe the best I ever had but not a career IMO.
Shivas,
How many of these guys actually carried a bag other than their own?
While we are on it, how many bags have your carried for money and for how many years? Senior PGA tournaments? Amateur tournaments? Let's see what you got!
This is similar to the Philly Test. How many guys from Philly have actually played Walnut Lane?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/
I am saying you got nothin other than preppy BS from the North Shore. :D I know Kavanaugh never carried a bag for money. :-*
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Kris - even if caddies were banned a player would still win every tournament, so caddies don't help players to win.
If it cost me £40 to £50 in cash everytime I went to the club, on top of my dues, I would either stop playing or join a club where I didn't have to pay the premium.
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Kris,
While I sympathise with the gist of your sentiment, it's Econ 101. There's high-end private and luxury resort golf and then there's the real world where $80 can buy processed carbs for a family of 4 for a week or 3 cases of cheap malt beverage.
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Kris, I’m confused. You state that golf today is unhealthily profit-driven. I don’t disagree. Of course, that’s part of what Mr. Peper’s article is complaining about: that Caddie programs at some of the country’s most profitable resorts and clubs are just another cost making the game less accessible, and one with little value at that. You say Mr. Peper is “known for his thrift” as an insult to the man while lamenting the profit-driven nature of modern American golf. How do you reconcile those two statements? Also, why is it such a travesty that Mr. Peper didn’t take a caddie during his time at Pebble Beach you recount? I’m sure his sponsorship of the event was significant enough to dispel your notion that he’s a tightwad, and Pebble Beach doesn’t require caddies. What did he miss out on? Did he not have a good time? If I had a son, I must admit that I’d probably prioritize the Economics 101 lesson on “not paying for duplicate services like a cart AND a caddie” over the Silver Spoon 101 lesson on “how to work with a caddie to play and enjoy the game.” I’m sure this is just reason number 398 for why it’s a good thing that I don’t plan to have children.
You also imply that anyone who doesn’t care about caddies doesn’t care about golf’s future health. Can you explain that one too? I don’t know anyone who became interested in golf after learning that they might get to take a caddie, but maybe my experience is just too narrow. Caddies aren’t part of the attraction to the game for me at all, but maybe they are for others.
You’re a caddie yourself. With that in mind, in the context of the rest of your post, I find delightful irony in your sixth paragraph which complains about people who only care about themselves and their immediate connection to the game.
I do think your statement about golf becoming unhealthily profit-driven is compelling. That’s the crux of this issue for me. I like caddie programs that aren’t absurdly profit-driven or designed to support career caddies. I’m not a big fan of those that are. I love my club’s caddie program. I don’t like the caddie programs at several famed resorts I’ve played. You say that I shouldn’t play those places, but I don’t agree. I think in our free market economy, it’s perfectly reasonable to occasionally pay for something you don’t want if it’s part of the cost of getting something you do want. It’s also perfectly reasonable to then complain about it. That’s the American way.
I’d like to insert a socialism joke here that brings full circle the concepts of purchasing required services, industries on life support, and opposition to career caddies, but I’d probably be the only person who thought it was funny.
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A major point that is being missed in the whole discussion is the fact that caddie programs cost private clubs and resorts money. They are not revenue generators. In fact the best any caddie program will do finically for a club is break even. So nobody is trying to get more $$$ out of you by forcing you to take a caddie. Clubs and resorts that have caddie programs do so because there is a demand for caddies and they are provided for their guests and members. IF there wasn't a demand for caddies at places there wouldn't be a caddie program.
Second of all there isn't a caddie in the world that wants to loop for someone who doesn't want a caddie.
Caddies turn into golfers is Kris' point. I loop for tons of guys in the summertime who grew up looping and fell in love with the game.
Anybody having a problem with career caddies is out of touch with the history of our game, as Kris has already pointed out.
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This discussion has turned too much into an us and them dichotomy. May as well be religion on the table. Can't we just agree that some want caddies and some don't? I don't see this being a life and death situation either way. Nor do I think Peper should be dragged over the coals for his opinion. Its one man's opinion - not a problem.
Ciao
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As Joe intimated, perhaps his opinions on other matters should be scrutinized. His definition of Links courses is chocked full of holes. Hide behind a panel all you want, it's a bunch of hooey.
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I play public courses so I don't have this decision to make. But I used to play alot of charity events on LI so I could play Meadowbrook, Piping Rock, etc. These events as most of you know have the club caddies go out as forecaddies with each group. Coming up 18 at Creek Club I mentioned to the young man that I heard that someone in the just concluded Met Am had made a double eagle on the hole. He confessed he had absolutely no idea what that was. That certainly lowered my expectations of the caddie genre.
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Coming up 18 at Creek Club I mentioned to the young man that I heard that someone in the just concluded Met Am had made a double eagle on the hole. He confessed he had absolutely no idea what that was.
The Creek Club is so old school that they still call it an albatross?
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I’d like to insert a socialism joke here that brings full circle the concepts of purchasing required services, industries on life support, and opposition to career caddies, but I’d probably be the only person who thought it was funny.
Please post or send an IM. I thought your entire post was fabulous.
In reference to the rest of your post, I was the only one of my group to take a caddie when I/we played Pebble Beach and he was a great guy. The Cypress Point guys were, well I was happy to be there. :D Life is situational....
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Quite revealing that noone has even attempted to refute David Elvins' post above.
Caddies are an anachronism from golf's origins as a game for the aristocracy and gentry. Clearly there are others who have a different view, but can we please stop attacking the strawman of objection to caddies being an economic issue instead of an individual preference?
It could be a matter of economics and individual preference. My life is not going to change if I spent $100 on a caddie. I just prefer to use my money on other things. If someone wants to call me cheap, it is rude, maybe even wrong, but I can live with it.
This topic has been covered several times before. I am personally uncomfortable with the servant/master relationship, and I recall that a number of others mentioned the same.
Joe Bentham- I recently had the pleasure of meeting one of your colleagues, Jon Dodson. Now I know that Bandon has at least two superb caddies!
Jason T- be careful, Mike Sweeney is borderline socialist. But do post the joke for the rest of us.
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Jason T- be careful, Mike Sweeney is borderline socialist. But do post the joke for the rest of us.
Not sure if driving a Lexus through Harlem counts, but I have been called worse!
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My take on all of this...
Caddies are clearly a luxury item and the divergent views expressed here must start there.
For those that a few thousand dollars year on their golf expenses is a "mere bag of shells" then caddies can be seen as a nice addition to the game and a better one is nicer than a bad one. Some prefer to support a scholar's program with younger students while while others don't care as long as the caddy is good. Not being concerned with the cost of mandatory caddies at high end clubs is one of the hurdles of wealth/income that allow one to be a member at these clubs. Caddy fees as a percentage of income/wealth for the average Augusta/Merion/etc. club is likely less than most golfer's cart fees at the kocal public.
Then you have those who have some discretionary income and can take a caddy at high end resorts or special days at high end clubs. Some will view good caddies as a luxury item to splurge on at times but also realize that having a caddy program at their clubs would price them out. Others view being forced to take a caddy as an additional unneeded expense and will grudgingly take them given no other choice, but are not happy with it and will not take one if given a choice.
Lastly, there are those that the marginal cost of a caddy prices them out of many golfing experiences and view the mandatory nature of them as onerous.
My dad got introduced to the game at Suburban GC in New Jersey and I have a soft spot for the fading myth of the local kid getting a view into a better life through the caddy yard. I have had great caddy experiences at St Andrews, Baltusrol, Lancaster and others, as well as some ok and some lousy ones at places that will go unnamed. However, my station in life means that the marginal cost of regular caddy services has meaning to the rest of my life. My club has no caddy program and I know that I would not personally get enough utility on repeated home course plays out of a caddy program to justify an additional $3,000+ a year in fees. This would likely force me to drop my club membership and either find a club with no program or go back to the publics.
I think that Peper was trying to say that the Caddy was going the way of the personal valet or the washer woman. It was not long ago that a much broader swath of society routinely had domestic help and expected more personal services in their daily lives outside of the home. For various reasons these types of personal services are moving out of the middle and upper-middle classes' frame of reference. His tone was deaf, but the idea that a member at anything other than an upper-crust club could be expected to support a full-service caddy program is very reasonable, in both the US and especially in the British economy at the moment.
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:'( >:( :P
DScmidt your last post was borderline ridiculous. You "know for a fact that there aren't any caddies that hustle or care about the game" . You really are clueless in this regard. I can name you twenty five caddies off the top of my head that are great, caring , intelligent people, and don't even have to leave Clementon, NJ to do so. I'm quite sure they also know more than a little about the game we all,profess to love. Sure there are bad caddies everywhere, just as there are bad food servers, accountants , lawyers , doctors, and yes , golf course architects too.
When I took my one trip to Ireland I had a fabulous older caddy named John , who not only knew all the best places to get a pint , but also was an amazing meteorologist . He wasn't a great technical golf expert, but I sure enjoyed his company , and I guess he liked us because they invited us all down to the local bar and spent half their fee buying drinks. So I think you owe some of the people you dissed an apology, no doubt you had a short bout of something when you posted!
I get it that some people don't want /need a caddy....but just because that is your preference you don't have to call for the obliteration of the species.
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Caddy fees as a percentage of income/wealth for the average Augusta/Merion/etc. club is likely less than most golfer's cart fees at the kocal public.
Jim,
The concept that the "average Merion" member doesn't sweat the caddie fees in not accurate. I have wealthy friends and regular guy friends at Merion. It is a very democratic (not a political statement Lou!) membership because it can be. Same for Winged Foot.
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Jason T- be careful, Mike Sweeney is borderline socialist. But do post the joke for the rest of us.
Not sure if driving a Lexus through Harlem counts, but I have been called worse!
"Bonfire of the Vanities?" ;D
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::) ::) ::)
I have no reason to cover for anyone that caddies, even if some of them remain my best friends thirty years removed from working together. I'm comfortable that I really do know at least twenty five great caddies that currently work at Pine Valley, and of course there's a few there that I'd prefer not to have. Don't know why you are sweeping with a broom when a brush will do.
The club where I play most of my golf doesn't have loopers of any age, and it probably wouldn't work given our membership, a mix of all socioeconomic groups. Given my affinity for loopers , I'd appreciate the service but it wouldn't work well at Greate Bay.
So be it ! Throw in liability issues that you never had in the seventies and eighties for clubs and the issue of young , cheap labor comes into a clearer focus. I never had to sign working papers, and I can tell you unequivocally that my parents wouldn't dare show up and yell at the caddy master if I didn't get out. Imagine an 11 year old carrying two bags or getting hit with a ball today without any issues?
Think about it . I'm telling you my caddy at Portstewart in Northern Ireland might not have been Bones or Fluff, but if I'm ever lucky enough to go back there I sure as hell hope John is available.
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Dave,
I am sympathetic to your "the kids are alright" viewpoint, but consider this: for a bunch of the older loopers, they are there because the golf course is the only place they can make a buck.
If you lost your job, your wife left you, you got thrown in jail for drunk driving, your law license was rescinded, you had no insurance and got hurt, and then you lost your house, and every penny of your savings, what would you do? If you had to eat TODAY, and you didn't have a cent, what would you do? For some guys in this situation, they go try to catch a loop and make it to the next day. I have known many guys in situations like these. They had no where else to go, so they go to the caddy shack, try to make a few bucks, and try to start piecing their lives back together. This kind of shit happens everyday.
Ask Greg Kunkel how many guys he helped get back on their feet exactly this way.
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DSchmidt,
Your assertion that ALL veteran(ie. "honor" caddies or whatever) caddies don't hustle is about as absurd a statement as I've read on this site. You often have solid points when you post, but you are way off on this one. Sure, there are caddies that coast out there...that happens in any job situation.
I was just visiting several area Philly caddie clubs discussing this very issue with their caddiemasters. I recounted several experiences of mediocre effort I encountered during a few of my rounds the past season. I stressed that these marginal levels were/are very damaging to the overall, consistent delivery of service by the caddie staff. I agree 100% that an experience that doesn't have the value it should, especially with "experienced" folks doing the job, is unnacceptable and needs addressing. Otherwise, why offer it in the first place?
As to your claim that EVERYONE on this board agrees with your take...I do not...AT ALL...so that FACT is not reality. There are MANY others who know that isn't the case. If you believe that beating your player to the drive is what caddying is all about...wow. Was the caddy carrying two bags? If he/she wasn't... and isn't keeping up, that caddie master needs to be illuminated to that situation and the caddy should be let go if they don't improve their effort. It's that simple. If the caddie is a slacker...they shouldn't be on the course...period. Many facilities don't invest in hiring an individual who really knows how to run a first-rate program. Therein lies the problem. Poor mentoring and management will quickly have ANY endeavor on the slide.
"I don't care" really cuts to how you seem to feel. These aren't my words. They are yours.
Jeff Evagues,
The situation of the rather clueless caddie can often occur when large events are hosted at places that don't have a deep pool of astute caddies. Few facilities have enough regular rounds to keep an army of good caddies busy. When an event of large scale comes along they frequently call other clubs or resort to trying to find folks to "caddie." That often leads to inexperienced or green caddies filtering in to the equation. Which leads to moments such as you described.
Despite the low regard for caddies held by many who haven't experienced what a quality caddie can add to a round, as is the case with any job done well...it's an art! Not everyone can caddie. I've seen low handicap players who BLOW at caddying for others.
Joe Bentham,
Thanks for your insights and understanding of my views. We do have to be careful when we assess what we think caddie programs "cost" facilities. It depends on the model and how it is run. Private/daily fee clubs can both SAVE and ADD significant dollars to their bottom line when they have a quality caddie program and understand how to utilize them properly. Caddies often: assist the starter or caddie master in pulling bags from the drop-off area or bagroom, clean/prep carts for daily play, shag balls on the range perimeter that the picker can't hit, keep the outside service area tidy, sand and seed divots on the fairways, rake out bunkers, fix damaging ball marks, get food at the grill/snack shack, buy apparel in the shop etc. etc. If you treat your caddies well they will gladly perform those additional duties!
Many of these tasks that caddies historically performed regularly at facilities... for DECADES, off the clock ... became the domain of the bloated "outside services staff/greeter mantra" that proliferated more recently, That, and ever-larger green staff crew to deliver over the top conditioning to the courses really drove the cost escalation at most facilities, along with the aircraft-carrier sized clubhouses, over the top F&B expectations etc. Caddie golf alone NEVER buried a club financially folks...get real!
Jason Thurman,
I'll try to add a little clarity to the "confusion." First, I don't presently caddie for a living. I'm a certified arborist who helps folks with tree/shrub related issues. That said, I caddied for the better part of 35 years, finding the game there as a youth and then professionally afterwards. Along with paying for my ENTIRE college education myself. Accomplishing that in large parts thanks to my work ethic while caddying and landscaping summers, along with a partial J. Wood Platt Caddie Scholarship award that my regular club, Radnor Valley C.C.(which sadly no longer has a program) membership supported. NO WAY that I'm writing to you now WITHOUT caddie golf as my entree to the game. Tens of thousands of others have that same avenue to thank. Including many of our game's greatest champions and differencemakers. If you can't grasp the significance of that, I suggest you do some more reading and you might gain some better appreciation for caddie golf's contributions to the game I'm sure you'd claim you love!
As to Mr. Peper, I didn't insult him at all. He HIMSELF has admitted he is "cheap." I've heard this directly from others, FIRSTHAND, that know him well. Spare me. When someone has a platform in a journalistic capacity...OBJECTIVITY is paramount, even when they opine. If he is going to slam something he clearly knows precious little about, to an equally, often under-informed public...SORRY...I will call his slant into question, and illuminate others as to what is really behind the mask. ESPECIALLY when the guy hasn't done his homework...AND HE EVEN wrote a book on it! Are you kidding me pal?
Addressing why the game... and caddie golf is in a decaying state at present, I saw this evolve first hand. I lived it. There was no reason for it other than greed; what affected caddie golf most negatively was the "cart revenue" mania that took hold and held sway, beginning in the latter 70's, aided by a relentless drumbeat of their "profit margin" by the various cart companies. Many hidden costs were conviently glossed over and some misguided clubs even gave this revenue opportunity to the pros for a while so they didn't have to increase their salaries. That forced the pro to often promote carts INSTEAD of supporting a robust caddie program. They made MORE money with every cart that went out. It was a very damaging scenario, even if unintended, that started the decline of caddie golf. Of course the club took that cart revenue opportunity back once they realized the money being taken in, but the damage to caddie golf had been done and it was significant.
Cart company sponsorship of PGA events and professional tours added to the momentum. The industry basically abandoned the greatest single source of its champions and differencemakers for "profit." That shift has "cost" the game's health dearly, on many levels, especially in America.
Caddie golf is the healthiest bargain in the game when it is well-run and financially viable. It will always be a FRACTIONAL percentage of the way the game is played. I and anybody who is objective will AGREE with that. It is a small, but VITAL avenue that has contributed MORE to the game, THROUGHOUT golf history, than any other single source. It's irrefutable. So why the distain for it by so many, including quite a few on this site, when it has had an immense, positive impact on the very game these folks profess to cherish? It doesn't add up. Many will rarely ever even have to deal with the decision to take one or not. For those that do...yes, it is part of playing at certain places, just like when you go to a top restaurant, you don't order at the cash register. You have a choice to go there or not.
For the record, I'm not for "mandatory" caddie programs. I believe as long as the facility and course is of a superior caliber, and the program is well-run, there will be a demand for caddie-golf. Unfortunately, often unless a caddie-club culture is re-inforced by some mandates, certain members will place thrift at the front of the decision and NOT support the caddie program. From my view, the membership application process is the best place to ensure that you will be a caddie club if that is the culture you with to have. Basically...."We play caddie-golf here. While we do not expect you to take a caddie every round, if you wish to be a member here, and remain in good standing, we expect you to support the program by taking them frequently." Is that so much to ask? If the answer is yes, then that person probably should look for another club.
I'll close by touching on your issue with "career" caddies. Many of us love the game so much we want to LIVE it...so some of us CHOOSE to caddie. I know that concept is VERY difficult for some, including some on this site, to grasp. I can say with FULL confidence, that many quality caddies know more about this game AND life, on MANY levels, than most who think they are above them. Few caddies will ever get more than a basic existence out of it on the financial end. That's not why they do it. Now there are also FAR too many who fall into it and coast. They don't really bring it everyday. That's regrettable. It's part of every job pool known to man. It ain't exclusive to caddie golf. Yet many, including sadly, folks on this site, delight in taking pot shots at caddies. It's easy to do. As it is anywhere you care to point.
I was fortunate to be mentored by some great, old school caddies who took an interest in me, helped me quickly learn a game I knew NOTHING about when I found the caddie yard. They helped shape and changed my life, along with those wonderful Jewish members who believed in helping a young, hustling Catholic kid try to succeed in life. I will NEVER forget or stop trying to repay their spirit and all that those in the game have SHARED with me! I'll not be able square the balance sheet on those treasured gifts, but I WILL die trying.
Hope that helps clear up the confusion?
Mark Chaplin,
Why do you insist on hanging on an isolated point and not at least accept the fact that while YOU may CHOOSE not to partake personally, there is merit to what the caddie golf dynamic has AND continues to contribute to the game....DESPITE the industry basically doing NOTHING to support it? History confirms it. It's right in front of you if you look.
I agree 100% that if you don't want to pay for a caddie...you join elsewhere. Again, caddie golf is a small fraction of the total way the game is played. You may take issue with having that as part of the tariff to play certain places. Such is life. I wish I could belong to, or play any number of places...what do I do, cry remuneration or class discrimination?
As to a caddie not helping a player to a win. You are kidding me right? I've heard NUMEROUS times, firsthand, and have seen TV interviews, where the PLAYER credited the caddie to helping them to the win. While I'm the first to give the player major credit for victory...THEY hit the shots and had the most difficult tasks... a superior effort in preparation and teamwork with a caddie OFTEN has a less-talented player rise up and BEAT better players. It doesn't happen all the time. It can't. Over time, superior talent wins the day percentage wise. But NOT always.
I'll give you a firsthand indication of what a quality caddie can mean to a player winning a tournament. The year 2000, the California State Amateur Champion that year was Nick Jones. He walked on the golf team at USC(University of Southern California, a Top-25 program at the time) and started all four years. He was team-mates with current tour player Stadler.
He also can claim to have done something Tiger NEVER did. Tiger didn't win a Cal State Am Title. He only played in one and lost in the semis. I'll never forget the smile that came over Nick's face when I pointed that out to him. Priceless! Double that joy as Tiger also won at Pebble that same year, in 2000. It gets no sweeter than that.
You know who was on the bag that week? Me. Do you know how many collegiate tournaments Nick won during his ENTIRE collegiate career...zero. He was and is a fine player, still holding several course records. HE WON that week. It wasn't a fluke. Beat the TOUGHEST regional field on the face of the earth. More PGA Tour pros come out of California than any other place on the planet. Look it up. At that time I believe 27 PGA pros were from Cali. That hasn't changed much. Where's Tiger from? Nick beat several players that week that were... or are... on the PGA Tour.
HE hit the shots. That said, his caddie did more preparation, and knew where to hit the gas or back off on that course, better than any other caddie, OR PLAYER, in the field that week. That year, because of the U.S. Open being at Pebble, the event was staged at Blackhorse/Bayonet over in Seaside. The courses, especially back then before the extensive tree removals and Team Bates multilations, were bears. Especially Bayonet, where the match play was contested. To give you an idea how tough it was, at Second Stage of PGA Tour Qualifying held there during the two prior years, the last stop before Final Stage, there weren't 10 guys under par, TOTAL, for those two events.
It was all about angles of approach that week. The course was firm. It hadn't rained much that year. You COULD NOT hit driver on many holes beause if you didn't shape it properly, you finished in the trees and were stuffed. The course WAS long, so most players felt they couldn't take driver out of their hands and give up that distance. Much like Tiger, who did it years LATER at Hoylake, I had Nick hit 3-iron on most of the holes, even the longest of them, if the angles threatened to put us in trouble with driver. He came from 2-down in every match to win from the second round on. Closed every match out from the quarter on with a birdie. It was an awesome accomplishment. HE hit the shots. There is NFW he wins that championship without me on the bag. Read what you wrote and square that against the TRUE account I just shared. Get real.
To GCA and beyond.
So where is the game's voice for caddie golf? The greatest single contributor to the game...throughout its history. The silence is deafening.
Where is the proportionate re-investment to that avenue by those that have profited from golf? It has been pathetic to date. Yet millions have/are shoveled to the First Tee and other initiatives de jour to "grow the game." Really?
That needs to change. The corporate-driven priorities need a serious course correction. It will happen. When?
Respectfully,
Kris
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:'( :'( :'(
DS..... Your mind seems quite closed on this subject , pity.
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DSchmidt,
You just nailed the problem! I agree with you 100% that if the position is coveted and vied for...a better service emerges. Facilities need a primer in how to achieve that. Most are clueless to what is required. With the dearth of information available on the subject, and an industry indifferent to really re-investing properly...the caddie outsource model and other nonsense finds its place...and you are on the road to the toilet. Kinda mirrors the state of the game, huh? It ain't a coincidence gang.
The health of caddie golf mirrors the state of the game. Run into any of the pro shop drones that I find more and more prevalent when I'm out playing? They have ZERO passion for the game and it shows. It's sad and really not their fault. They were sold the bill of goods, paid big money to get a PGM degree...only to land in the world of 24K for a 60+ hour week as a glorified shirt folder. What a sham. While those at the top fostering this crock knock down a million plus. And they wonder what's wrong. Look inward.
There is competition for caddie jobs. The economy is still limping along for many in our society. Make no mistake. It is up to the caddie master to raise the bar to a higher plane. That can only happen if the facility invests in hiring a quality candidate that has the ability to deliver it. It takes a real passion for it and hard work to develop a solid caddie corps. The mixed age group model is best from my view, provided the club supports it properly. There are those places out there where it works rather well, but it takes effort.
Glad Archie helped keep your eyes open a least a sliver on this issue. ;D
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Dave,
In the spirit of this week, how about one or two HH stories.
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Wait a second HH, you're as bad as some of these others characters around here that have putting words in someone's mouth down to an art form. Show me ANYWHERE in ALL the posts I've made on this site regarding caddie golf, or anywhere else, that I EVER suggested that jacked up fees is the cost for a quality caddie program. NEVER. I believe in a respectable base rate. More modest for newer or younger caddies and something higher for competent caddies. It depends on the model. I also appreciate that some player's are being cost-sensitive out of necessity. They may want to take the younger caddie and are happy knowing it might be a different experience. They also, to their credit, often ENJOY helping mentor that younger caddie, shepherding them along. They frequently caddied and want to pass the opportunity to the next generation. Wonderful and noble gestures whatever the thought behind it.
My take is that the caddie should be rewarded beyond the respectable base rate by the player in proportion to what they DELIVERED, in total, to the round. The criteria will vary player to player. That is part of becoming a quality caddie; quickly identifying what the player wants and satisfying those expectations.
Make sure you are seated in a strong chair when you read this next statement. I believe MANY caddies are NOT delivering the quality of service that they are being compensated for! There are plenty of jaded, old-guard mules out there on auto-pilot. It shouldn't be. They need the cattle prod to re-commit to the task...or they should not set foot on the course.
Poor caddie experiences have become more common than in the past in part because expectations are...and SHOULD be... higher. It is a privilege to caddie at a superior facility, not a right. I will not shrink from the assertions you make that many caddie rounds are left wanting. That, to me, is an improvement opportunity...not a call for condemnation of the caddie dynamic.
The game's leadership, especially at the top, has lost their way on the importance of re-investing in caddie golf. This, in my view, is where the problem began in the first place. If you claim to be about honoring your core elements, supporting caddie golf should be well up on that list of prorities. Where does that reality square with what is actually being done? Instead of avoidance and indifference in determining what should be undertaken, they need to engage those that understand what is required and be part of the solution. No one model, not even Evans, fits all scenarios. It takes study and nuance to assess and execute.
There are those of us, though few in number presently, that are working diligently to re-energize and elevate this vital component to the game's health. It won't be easy. Unless there is an immediate profit-center or personal reward, most aren't really interested. That mentality isn't exclusive to caddie golf. Progress is afoot. It takes time.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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And he says "That's alright. I admire your enthusiasm and you boys seem pretty sharp. This is the first call I've ever gotten like this. Should I expect more?" or something like that.
And somebody says "Heck yeah, we're calling every year because WE LOVE THE MASTERS!"
To which he says something like: "I'll be looking forward to it. Good night boys." And he got off the phone.
Did you guys follow through?
During Messrs. Roberts' and Hardin's tenure, the in-laws of one of my wife's colleagues used to spend a few days at ANGC every year as guests of a well-known Dallas member. They stayed on site, ate most of their meals there, and were treated superbly. Their visits stopped around the time when Mr. Stephens assumed the chairmanship and, perhaps, the club became more corporate.
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:) :) :) ;) :D
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Quite revealing that noone has even attempted to refute David Elvins' post above.
Taking a caddie might be fun every once in a while on an unfamiliar course, but I wouldn't want to do it regularly, whatever the cost. At my home club, I'm very content carrying or pulling my own bag, reading my own putts on greens I've played maybe a thousand times, and talking to my playing partners rather than feeling obliged to engage my caddie in conversation. I cannot envisage a single benefit that a caddie would provide at that course.
Caddies are an anachronism from golf's origins as a game for the aristocracy and gentry. Clearly there are others who have a different view, but can we please stop attacking the strawman of objection to caddies being an economic issue instead of an individual preference?
Chris: I love taking a caddie. Singular. A caddie. A kid. A kid who wants to play golf and likes the game. I'm on that like stink on a monkey, and I'll pay for that every time: a young Jack Crisham, a young Victor Kmetz, a young Paul Thomas, a young Shelly Solow, a young Tim Bert or Mike Hendren or John Kavanaugh or Gib Papazian or Ran Morissett or Ryan Potts or Jeff Goldman or Jud Tigerman or Matt Cohn or even a young you.... hell, even a young Terry Lavin. :). And forgive me for all the guys whose names I have skipped solely for brevity purposes...
Give me a shack full of THOSE guys. Nobody I know would have the slightest issue with that. And that's the point.
and I'd have hustled my balls off for you if I was your caddie, because I hustled in the the grocery store I worked at growing up
their cost is a factor for me unfortunately, esp when we are getting close to $100...and even if its "only " $50, they should still work hard...I can think of at least two incidents at VERY well known clubs where I had to pay my caddie $80 each and they were TERRIBLE...not marginal, but terrible...guessing at distances, playing with their iPhone , etc....esp bad when one of them had been at the club for 20 years
programs like Chick Evans are terrific...I wish I could have gotten into the program, as my dad had a serious stroke when I was 11 which basically prevented him from working the rest of his life and my mom busted her ass for 30 years at a local fast food place, so , needless to say, I would have met the needy requirement...alas, I didnt start playing golf til I was 15 and had no clude about the Evans program til many years later...
a good caddie can be a great help at a course with greens that are tricky/hard to read...think it was at Rolling Green about 5 years ago that I had one of the best caddies I've ever had, who really helped me out...I was glad and happy to pay him...
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DS or Hord Hardin,
I appreciate your more enlightened take upon illumination and reflection. That different view is why I take the time to try and convey what many have never really taken the time to assess. I don't expect them to. Most don't have the intense desire to improve the caddie dynamic that I do. It's when there is NO mental movement, or stubborn niggling on minor points NOT really central to the discussion...that becomes troubling. But while I may be an apostle for caddie golf, I'm well aware some can't bring themselves around to the reality. It's a mindset as much as it is about the money. That is sad.
David,
Awesome post. Glad to have a fellow man on the links weigh in with the personal experiences that have enriched your life, AND those you helped, better enjoy this devilish game. Good on ya!
Paul,
Thanks for your take. You saw the good and disgraceful when experiencing caddie golf. I hope that memorable, positive one keeps you taking one when you can swing it. I've NEVER made the kind of money most do on this site. That hasn't kept me from taking a caddie whenever possible if they are on offer. I've had my share of duds, and most of the time the caddiemaster KNEW I was a guy who had a real passion for it. You basically work with what you have. Some caddie experiences are awesome. Others are weak...or beyond. It's life. Treasure the good, flush the bad, just like we should approach the game.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Hord Hardin's spirit railing against adult caddies: what in the wide world of sports is going on here? Somebody better look out when Cemetery Poteat's ghost gets wind of this. He is going to get ethereal on somebody. And hey isn't Carl Jackson still living? Good thing you're a spirit because he could do damage upside your corporeal head if you still had one.
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Since I was named, I suppose I will chime in. First, I never caddied for cash; my youthful jobs were teaching tennis at a summer camp in Michigan and doing some odd jobs at my Dad's store. I am fortunate enough to play at a club with a strong caddy program. I confess that I enjoy the use of a caddy. At my own club, I can read the greens without their help. Nonetheless, it is a better walk and I am helping someone make some money in return for allowing me to better enjoy the game. I prefer taking the young eager kids so that I can help our caddy master turn them into good caddies. We are active in the Evans Program and have our own scholarship program as well. We help a lot of kids and help create the next generation of golfers. We also create a lot of good will in the community for our club by creating jobs and scholarships.
Schmidty left out another class of older caddies. We have a number of immigrants who have difficulty finding good jobs. These men as a rule hustle their tails off because, for them, these jobs are the first rung up the ladder, just as similar jobs were opportunities for my grandfather and his colleagues when they came to this country.
Finally, I must say I am a bit bemused by those who suggest that clubs are harming themselves by requiring caddies in order to maintain their programs. Most clubs are populated with relatively successful people. I suggest that they are better able to assess the impact on their institutions than outsiders whose interests are not those of the club or its members but rather are clouded by their wish to avoid taking a caddy. I respect everyone's right to make their own decisions. But the club makes its rules and if they meet with anyone's displeasure, that person can vote with his/her feet and not patronize the club as a member or a guest.
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Ahhh, one step forward...with TWO bags...and two steps back , with one bag! Let me try and explain. There is NO question that in a perfect caddie world, EVERY caddie should learn the job starting as a SINGLE caddie. This should be done with both caddiemanager instruction, AND on the job shadowing under the eyes of a more veteran caddie who knows how to MENTOR. Just because you are a great caddie does NOT qualify you for this role. It takes: empathy, tact and patience, along with a solid understanding of the duties, physical and otherwise.
After the single bag role has been mastered to a competent level, and this progression will vary caddie to caddie, they could, again with "veteran" supervision, on-course, begin to carry two bags. I must respectfully say at this juncture...you can carry two bags and still do a superb job for BOTH players. The PLAYERS have to ADJUST to the process and aid the double caddy where it makes sense. This IS NOT a master and servant situation here folks! It is a TEAMWORK dynamic at play. I'm constantly baffled at how many players, particularly those that should know better, have difficulty getting that aspect of working WITH a caddie carrying double.
Come on, how hard is it to pull the rake behind you after a sand shot when you can clearly see the double caddie needs to get to the other player in short order. That guy or gal caddie isn't shirking out there in that instance, and it's no real sweat of your back. After all, YOU hit the ball in there. I almost always rake my own bunker when I'm out with a caddie, saying to them, " I got it...this is my penance!" Now a caddie who is just being lazy and WAITING for you to rake...that is something else entirely. As many who chime in here have claimed they almost don't need that much from the caddie, simply working TOGETHER can make for a very smooth, enjoyable round.
The idea that you're somehow getting cheated when being carried by a double caddie needs some reflection. MANY caddies, especially older caddies, NEED to carry double to be there! It enables them to pay their bills, put gas in their car to come to the course, help the kid(s) they have going to college, etc.etc. Of course there is an added level of attentiveness and service when the job is performed by a single caddy. That should be the realm of the youger, aspiring caddie OR the aging lion who still has the goods, they just don't have the physical stamina for the double anymore. It is a thing of beauty to see a wise vet squire a gaggle of younger singles around with a foursome. I know. I lived it and you want to talk about quickly ratcheting junior's caddying skills!
Now we turn to the forecaddie role. Make NO MISTAKE...it is an art to do a superior job as a forecaddie. Many veterans caddies have difficulty performing this role well. Think about it. Four players. All the information. Keeping the group rolling and not losing balls. Multiple reads given quickly and on point. You get the picture...it's a TOUGH job done well. It amazes me how many facilities send out the kids on this role, often green, and wonder why both the players AND the caddies are frustrated by the experience. NO inexperienced caddie should be put out on a forecaddie job. Better to have them work for just two players in the group on each nine than to subject them AND the players to a position they will be overwelmed in.
The caddiemanager IS the key character here, regardless of the scenario, THEY must convey the caddie status to the player(s) at the outset. This sets the proper, reasonable expectation of what is to follow and quickly defines a comfort level for the interaction. This CRITICAL dialogue is VITAL. It eliminates confusion, frustration and uncertainty from the start.
Turning to the new arrival, or immigrant caddie. They in general, do work hard. The language issue can be a challenge. That said, if you take the same measured approach to learning the job as was previously described, they will quickly become quite competent. I will say that hiring for personality, while high on the list of desired qualites for any caddie candidate, is at a premium for this pool of folks. New culture, environment,protocals, etc. leads to frustration. An upbeat, light-hearted spirit generally handles this better than the quiet, more sullen type from my experience. They should WANT to be there ...everyday. That really goes for EVERY caddie in your yard.
The caddie yard is really a microcosim of our world gang. The better the quality and harmony is, the better it all functions. There is room for diversity, on EVERY level. Again, the position should be one that is coveted. It needs to be appreciated and valued by those who caddie. That means the facility MUST support and respect what it represents. You want your BEST people in that role. Huh, you say? Yes, because they spend more time with your golfers than ANYONE else on the property. This goes DOUBLE if you are a destination golf facility. It amazes me that some places give this important aspect of sustained profitability such short shrift. Some even outsource that caddie program leadership to profit-driven management companies. They're nuts!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Ahhh, one step forward...with TWO bags...and two steps back , with one bag! Let me try and explain. There is NO question that in a perfect caddie world, EVERY caddie should learn the job starting as a SINGLE caddie. This should be done with both caddiemanager instruction, AND on the job shadowing under the eyes of a more veteran caddie who knows how to MENTOR. Just because you are a great caddie does NOT qualify you for this role. It takes: empathy, tact and patience, along with a solid understanding of the duties, physical and otherwise.
After the single bag role has been mastered to a competent level, and this progression will vary caddie to caddie, they could, again with "veteran" supervision, on-course, begin to carry two bags. I must respectfuly say at this juncture...you can carry two bags and still do a superb job for BOTH players. The PLAYERS have to ADJUST to the process and aid the double caddy where it makes sense. This IS NOT a master and servant situation here folks! It is a TEAMWORK dynamic at play. I'm constantly baffled at how many players, particularly those that should know better, have difficulty getting that aspect of working WITH a caddie carrying double.
Come on, how hard is it to pull the rake behind you after a sand shot when you can clearly see the double caddie needs to get to the other player in short order. That guy or gal caddie isn't shirking out there in that instance, and it's no real sweat of your back. After all, YOU hit the ball in there. I almost always rake my own bunker when I'm out with a caddie, saying to them, " I got it...this is my penance!" Now a caddie who is just being lazy and WAITING for you to rake...that is something else entirely. As many who chime in here have claimed they almost don't need that much from the caddie, simply working TOGETHER can make for a very smooth, enjoyable round.
The idea that you're somehow getting cheated when being carried by a double caddie needs some reflection.
I've reflected and to me it would be like paying to go to the Opera and being instructed to sing the chorus's part. Not what I went for and even harder on other paying customers. No, the team is on the stage and I'm paying to sit in the stalls.
I don't know the answer to this but has overall satisfaction with Caddie's dropped with the introduction of double loops. When did it start because it's not my image of what a caddy does?
PS I don't sing and I don't take caddies.
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Mike,
Cheers to you! A good player might be able to find his or her way around after a few plays, but the first time? No way. Of the second shot on No. 2, the tee shot or second shot on No. 4, and the tee shots on 6, 7, 8, 11, 16 or 18, you're bound to guess incorrectly when choosing your line at on at least a few of those.
Surely this is the sign of a poorly thought-out course; who did the original design and/or routing at your course?
;D ??? ::) :P
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Man, this just gets curiouser and curiouser.
Kris has worked his way around to describing a situation where basically two golfers are supposed to induct their caddie for the day into some ménage a golf arrangement where the goal is to perform this dance where the players stay where they need to be at all times while the caddie directs traffic and dishes out the tactics and strategy to be used on each shot. Each golfer is picking up the tab for a "team" that somehow also includes the guy he's playing a game against.
I'm glad somebody somewhere gets off on the particular game Kris is playing. Consenting adults having a good time, it's all good.
But count me out. I'll gladly carry my own bag. Or if I'm at a club where having a caddie is the thing to do I'll gladly hire a caddie. But if I do, the dude better not be imagining his job is anything other than having my clubs when and where I need them. Because that's the criteria on which I'll evaluate his service.
And yes, I said "hire". I don't want a golf coach or a life partner or a hookup for some kind of weird threesome. Just golf like 99.999% of the world plays it, either with myself or a hired assistant lugging along my bag. The stuff being bandied about on this thread is just out there, man.
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As a member at a club that requires caddies I can understand all points of view in this argument. Even at times when caddies are not "required" pressure exists to take them perhaps because the rules and policies are made for the lowest common denominator player that is not physically able to carry his bag or think and wants to be treated like Mr. Trump.
Do I really need a caddie for a mid-November round when I am playing with one other guy and the caddie is carrying double, and attempting to make it eighteen holes without putting a bag down or leave the middle of the fairway? Is..." he needs the money a good excuse" ? If the club is being used as a job bank the club should be employing these people (see how that goes over ;D) instead of the typical independent contractor arrangement.
The pay structure is severely out of whack also. Does a hustling guy at a private club with a strong caddie program get compensated fairly in regards to some of his peers that might not be particularly attentive? What extra per bag does the hustling 50 year old veteran get above the lazy 50 year old that does not care?
I thought the people working at Bandon were phenomenal and worth the fees (which if I recall were rather high), the average NYC area "exclusive club" caddie experience at >$80 a bag is sorely lacking.
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Sadly, some of you guys just don't seem to get it when it comes to caddie golf. I've NEVER had a player complain to me, or to higher ups, that they got inferior service from me when I doubled. What I'm describing is basic respect and human courtesy during interaction when someone is trying to help you on a golf course. What's the goal...make the caddie work his ass off so you feel satisfied he earned his money? I find the responses on here very illuminating.
HH,
We just have to admit to a different appreciation for what is important. Take your single and enjoy the day. I have NO problem working with a double caddie. NEVER have.
Brent,
You clearly are not a caddy golf guy. Not a problem. Just understand that many of the special golfing haunts in the world have them as part of the experience. I may not like having a waiter when out fine dining, but I'm dealing with it if I'm there. You can carry your bag, but there are places you WON'T be playing without having a caddie. Your choice. The rest of your post was confused because you don't have enough context.
Corey,
The best way to address a poor experience is with the pay. Most places have a base rate. What the player gives the caddie beyond that is up to the player. If the guy slacked, tell him so. That's the only way it gets corrected. I will say again that inconsistent, poor performers shouldn't be on the course. That's on the caddiemanager, so long as the other support elements are in place.
The double caddie that stays in the middle of the fairway and doesn't put the bag down is a no go! That ain't proper double caddying...that's lazy and belongs down the road.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Kris
What makes you think that some people that might not see the "value" in having a caddie lack basic respect and human courtesy?
My goal is to play as quickly as possible in the context of the game, it certainly is a team effort (with the caddie) in accomplishing that.
Maybe some of the people you or your peers caddie for, out of basic respect and human courtesy don't complain even when they feel they are getting inferior service or that caddie is not meeting the minimum requirements of the job.
Have you ever complained about service at the fine dining establishment or do you just tip 15% and move on?
Does anyone have the temerity to complain as a guest at another club? Do I want to complain (though I attempt to tell the caddie what is important to me) at my home club where guys do need the money?
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Corey; At our club, at the end of every loop, the player is given a card to rate the caddy on a variety of tasks with room for additional comments. Our caddy master views this as an important tool for further training and as a way to measure who is really interested and who gets to move up the ladder. So the answer to your question about complaints is "yes". But the manner in which one does so is regulated to help maintain an appropriate atmosphere.
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I grew up caddying at the course where my dad was the head pro.
It was a different era, everyone walked, our course had about 20 carts, and for the most
part, the only people who rode had medical reasons.
We carried doubles for the most part (big assed Burton bags, with shoulder killer straps).
Mix of juniors and old guys. Junior members, were NOT allowed to play in the afternoon
unless they showed up to caddy! we all had regular loops, and it was a good job.
Fast forward 30+ years, and the game has changed. In some ways, not for the better.
I do not play often any more. In the past 3 years, I have played 3 times, where a caddy was required.
Two of the three experiences were not good. Those two were at very, very good clubs, and the sense
of entitlement and arrogance of those two caddies was very evident. As a guest, I am pretty good about not giving a crap
about those kind of things, usually happy to be playing with the people I am with.
One of the caddies, did so many things wrong by the first green, that it was almost funny.
I happened to play very well that day, and on the 12th hole, he learned that I had played for a living at one time.
He treated me like a schmuck early in the day, questioning why we were playing the back tees (my host is a good player too).
After learning I had played, his demeanor changed.
I hate being required to take a caddy, but respect that at a club I am a guest of. All too often, required ANYTHING,
leads to an entitled attitude among the recipents of that work.
By the way, the 1 good caddy also had no idea I could play. Asked if he could change my bag to his.
Made sure to check that everything I needed was in the changed bag (asked about my medicine even).
On the first hole, he asked me if I new how far I hit my clubs. He was awesome. A high school golfer.
He made a pile of cash that day, bunch of Titleist golf balls, and a very good review when we finished. A great kid
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As performing, supervising, recruiting, training and administering the trade of Caddies has been my life...I know, as I'm sure plenty of you out there are saying with silence, that it's Dave-cum-Shivas-cum-Hord that's telling the lie, misrepresenting the truth and extrapolating a negative spin on "theory" for the uneducated about how double-Looping really works on the ground...
First of all "Hoard," you claim that double-bag work was created by the Caddie for his own enrichment...bullshit. It was created because any club experiences between 100-150 individual rounds during the seasonal day and usually concentrated into two distinct periods...before noon and after noon. Whether it's the floor or the ceiling (which can go over 200), you are therefore insisting that the CM and his yard have 50 -100 caddies for those crushes, if we were to do it single-bag style.
This number can't be supported at a great number of places, and in your other cantakerous parallel universe of no-mandatory policies, how would you keep such a number there.
But that's to refute YOUR fabrication, offered as gospel...
As to the merits of what service can/can't be offered by a Caddie with another player's bag, you're also wrong...
1st: on the 13 or 14 two/three shot holes, the Caddie is already out in the fairway, a hundred and fifty yards ahead of you. You have never seen a Caddie position a player's bag nearby his ball, shoot or pace the yardage, then go over to the other "away" player's bag, and do the same, meanwhile, letting the first player know what the yardage is as he walks to assess his shot?
2nd: if you're more than two, there's another caddie in the group...you have never seen caddies switch bags with one another so that the quickest distribution of labor and presentation of the most distant player's clubs are first at hand? You have never seen the "other" caddie rake a bunker, wipe a golf ball, shoot a yardage because the first looper's players are in a bit of jam on opposite sides of a green or fairway. It's a team effort out there, pal...if you got your head out of your ass or scorecard or Secretary of Labor duties, you might notice that it's not ALL about you.
I say to all of you that this thread has lost its oxygen. We're now down to reflecting the individual cursory opinions of a few cranks who just don't want to go along, so they have trouble getting along.
I'm grateful and thankful that I have my health and strength enough to give people (foursomes even) a great few hours on the Golf course and earn a survival wage doing it. I gain a lot from it and I give a lot to it.
George Peper, Shivas and the cranks can just go away and complain to their own boards - 90% of us, Caddies, Visitors and members are content and can adjust our unhappinesses on our own without their help.
cheers
vk
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Pat,
Thanks for your take.
V.Kmetz,
Amen.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Vic: U hit the nail on the head with the team work factor. My caddymaster in adept at matching caddies with caddies as
well as with the players. Some guys I love to work with because we work with (each other), some guys could give a hoot
less what u or your player are doing, they have tunnel vision and don't understand it's a group thing.
Most of my loops are 1 member 3 guests. 99% of the members will tell you "don't worry about me, take care of my guests".
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I tend to think that anyone that posts here and caddies (say the same about everyone else in the business also...pros, architects,supers) is not part of the problem so has a difficult time comprehending another view on this.
Any idea how the practice of a caddie carrying putters for people in a cart came to be? Is that really necessary other than let the people know they might owe a little cash at the end of a round especially when it is a guy already double bagging for two walkers?
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In this passionate debate of caddying single vs. double, it dawned on me today that Bandon Dunes is a perfect place to survey the playing public what they prefer. This may not be the most scientific methodology, so those on the single bag side please explain this.....
Why is it that somewhere well north of 90% of our caddie requests, mostly from repeat customers who have encountered said double bagger, said double bagger being a "lifer" in this discussion vernacular ask again for that caddie. And the inverse to that would be, why are way LESS than 10% of our caddie requests for the young single bag caddie?
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:'( :P ::)
Gotta close my responses to this thread after this , as it's starting to resemble the dems vs republicans. But here's my last salvo . Spirit of Hord , you must be really special , really special, because you claim you would be the best caddy in any yard immediately. I'm not sure anyone in the world could make that claim and back it up. If you are that good, you are probably more intuitively brilliant than any one on board here, so we should .take all your claims about caddies as gospel . Any one over college age is a slug and a bum.
For that reason , we should close our attempts to explain that for all its issues in this new day, caddying remains an art . There are all levels of caddies , from bag carriers to someone who can actually help a talent the likes of Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson play at the highest level. I'm hoping whatever bad experiences you have had with caddies , which certainly can and does happen, doesn't continue. Certainly we all enjoy golf, though not all in the same way. Please try to see it as your prerogative , as we do , and enjoy it accordingly.
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Any idea how the practice of a caddie carrying putters for people in a cart came to be? Is that really necessary other than let the people know they might owe a little cash at the end of a round especially when it is a guy already double bagging for two walkers?
I usually tip the guy up front so I can get my putter back ::) ::) after waiting on he first green ::) ::)
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In this passionate debate of caddying single vs. double, it dawned on me today that Bandon Dunes is a perfect place to survey the playing public what they prefer. This may not be the most scientific methodology, so those on the single bag side please explain this.....
Why is it that somewhere well north of 90% of our caddie requests, mostly from repeat customers who have encountered said double bagger, said double bagger being a "lifer" in this discussion vernacular ask again for that caddie. And the inverse to that would be, why are way LESS than 10% of our caddie requests for the young single bag caddie?
Because they have NO CHOICE. More defensive drivel. What does Bandon tell a foursome when they say they want 4 experienced single caddies? They tell 'em to pound sand, right? So much for your pseudo-reasoning.
Hord, let me slow this down to a pace you might understand better. Why, after playing Bandon with a given double bagger, upon returning to Bandon for a repeat visit in the future, does a player ask for that very same double bagger, instead of asking for a different single bagger, using what those in the CM business call a "request" and do it at a much higher frequency than the players using single bag caddies.
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I've played probably 50 caddie rounds in my life, most of them in a tournament setting, but many during practice rounds for such tournaments.
Comparing a caddie who is doubling to a caddie carrying a single bag is a joke. Just stop defending it. A caddie who is doubling is, absolutely, providing a service -- a valuable one even, but he simply cannot do even close to as good a job as the same caddie singling. Too much hurrying and not enough time taken over reads or in short discussion or strategy.
Regarding those who request a double: Why do you think most of those who request a double might do so? Easy: $$$
When I get a caddie who is doubling, my partner and I will give $50 - $75 each depending on service.
when I get a single caddie, I will give $80 to $120 depending on service for a PROFESSIONAL caddie who can read the greens like a pro. That's a big savings by going to the double-looper.
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David
People ask for the same caddie because they already know the person and have a relationship and a comfort level, I am not sure it has anything to do with single or double bag.
I played in a Macdonald Cup event prior to the official opening of the course. For some reason it was determined that we could not use the same caddie each day (really ridiculous rule) so I probably had four or five caddies over five days. Some were double (the rounds that were not part of the event) some were single.
Were I to return I would gladly accept (or request) any of the guys again. Though I would prefer a single, I would also take them as doubles as I do believe if they are making the walk they deserve to make as much as possible. Even with these highly skilled guys you can't compare the "service" between single and double.
I did find the effort and skill level of the Bandon caddies to be exceptional. No complaints, not part of the problem IMO
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Corey,
The economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon. I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag. It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.
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Corey,
As I alluded above, I too prefer the single bag experience as I enjoy that heightened sense of service. But the economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon. I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag. It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.
What's the going rate at Bandon for a single loop and a double?
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Corey,
As I alluded above, I too prefer the single bag experience as I enjoy that heightened sense of service. But the economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon. I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag. It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.
What's the going rate at Bandon for a single loop and a double?
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Corey,
As I alluded above, I too prefer the single bag experience as I enjoy that heightened sense of service. But the economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon. I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag. It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.
What's the going rate at Bandon for a single loop and a double?
I just checked the website (I'm not there now so wasn't sure how they stated fees on the website). It said "The amount of any fee is the sole discretion of the player. Our expectation is that a caddie's performance will exceed your expectations and warrant at least the average fee". I'm not trying to be vague. I believe when you meet a caddie supervisor at the course first day they will suggest $80-100 per bag. There is no stated difference between single and double.
So am I to understand that a caddie double looping should get $160 to $200? Exactly double the rate if he were singling?
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Comparing a caddie who is doubling to a caddie carrying a single bag is a joke. Just stop defending it. A caddie who is doubling is, absolutely, providing a service -- a valuable one even, but he simply cannot do even close to as good a job as the same caddie singling. Too much hurrying and not enough time taken over reads or in short discussion or strategy.
99% of the time less is more in regards to caddie/player discussion on shots/reads. We are talking about resort/leisure rounds here, not the US open. 4 golfers and two double bag caddies is the perfect golf experience. 4 golfers and 4 caddies is a rodeo.
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Let me get this straight. Are people suggesting that a caddie can do just as good a job with two players as he can with one? Furthermore, are people suggesting a double looper should be paid the same as if it were two single loops? If so, take a pause and give this some thought. There can only be one correct answer and anyone being honest with himself will find a way to that correct answer. As Pat states, any time a service is required there is a greater chance that service will not be as good as it could be.
Ciao
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Let me get this straight. Are people suggesting that a caddie can do just as good a job with two players as he can with one? Furthermore, are people suggesting a double looper should be paid the same as if it were two single loops? If so, take a pause and give this some thought. There can only be one correct answer and anyone being honest with himself will find a way to that correct answer. As Pat states, any time a service is required there is a greater chance that service will not be as good as it could be.
Yes, all that is being claimed. And there's more!
Kris also claims that if two players being double-looped do not recieve the same quality service as having their own caddie it's because the players aren't doing their part or don't know what they're supposed to be doing to help the caddie out.
Talk about your victim blaming...
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as a caddie, I prefer singles, as a provider I prefer doubles
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Brent ,
NEVER SAID THAT. Players that have basic common sense and understand how to work with a caddie when it is a double-bag situation will HELP that caddie deliver a solid experience if said caddie is doing a quality job.
NO WAY that a double caddie can give EACH player the EXACT level of service that two individual, single caddies could. But for the players I've worked for in the 35 plus years I've been around the game looping, that understand there's a human being, not a machine involved, the adjustment hasn't been a problem. If the caddie does a solid job and the round goes fairly well...what's wrong?
HH,
Sorry you're regressing. Golf isn't a track meet...it's a WALKING game at its best. Most of us don't play speed golf. I'm a fast player, but I don't delight in blazing around a golf course. Why?
I'm going to retire from this thread along with Archie. For the record, I've done a hell of a lot more in my life than just caddie, so I don't have the blinders on here. If you reflect on what those who have spent the MOST time in the arena are saying...the potshots from those that haven't don't carry much weight. Caddie golf has many forms...and even at that...it's not for everybody. We can ALL agree on that.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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My ethereal friend; enough of the reductio ad absurdum ( I know the Ghost is a sucker for Latin). There is no doubt that all things being relatively equal, 2 single caddies provide a superior experience to a double caddy. I suspect your "adversary" will concede that point. However, I further suggest that, in your zeal to prove the obvious, you overstate the evils of double bagging. A good, motivated double caddy can provide an excellent experience. If the players are sympathetic and willing to chip in a little, like rake an occasional bunker (admit it, you have done so as have I and we didn't really mind) it makes things go a little quicker and easier. So if your point is that 2 good singles are better than a double, you prevail. But it does not follow that a good double cannot help you enjoy a great day of golf. Of course that is even easier at your home course where you don't need much help.
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My ethereal friend; enough of the reductio ad absurdum ( I know the Ghost is a sucker for Latin). There is no doubt that all things being relatively equal, 2 single caddies provide a superior experience to a double caddy. I suspect your "adversary" will concede that point. However, I further suggest that, in your zeal to prove the obvious, you overstate the evils of double bagging. A good, motivated double caddy can provide an excellent experience. If the players are sympathetic and willing to chip in a little, like rake an occasional bunker (admit it, you have done so as have I and we didn't really mind) it makes things go a little quicker and easier. So if your point is that 2 good singles are better than a double, you prevail. But it does not follow that a good double cannot help you enjoy a great day of golf. Of course that is even easier at your home course where you don't need much help.
Shelly - The Ghost won't concede anything. It's just not in the Ghost's DNA. I believe that because the Ghost respects you the Ghost's response will be tempered but unwavering nonetheless. By the way do you know if he prefers Spirit or Ghost? ;)
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Shivas,
Where do caddies come from when school's in session, but CEO's still want to play?
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At my first GCA (Philly area) off season "cabin fever" get togethers at Seaview I asked the group, over beers, how many had spent time caddying. Almost 3/4 of os threw up our hands, myself included.
Caddies aren't just a bunch of alcoholic ne'er-do-wells, they are us!
That being said I walk and carry 99% of my rounds and where I am required to take a caddy I often find myself at odds with their advise.
Of the clubs where I am forced to take a a caddy PVGC has provided the most annoying and worst advise while Baltusurol's heavily Caribbean staff do better by my measure.
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Another issue that I'm not sure has been mentioned is often even if you request singles at a place with a full time caddie program you usually end up with a double, either because there aren't enough bodies or everyone wants to double and they still expect essentially the same tip as if they were a single. This even happened to me at Bandon.
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Bandon has built a great caddie program by attracting caddies from all over the country and beyond who want to work hard. Turn it into a single bag only program and you'd lose a lot of great caddies. Would singling everyone and chasing away those who actually want to make a decent income result in better caddie programs? In the case of Bandon absolutely not.
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Shivas,
Where do caddies come from when school's in session, but CEO's still want to play?
They don't. CEOs carry their own damn bags or take pull carts. I once saw Charles Schwab carrying his own at Olympic for precisely this reason. It gave me a hard on.
Correctemundo, Shivaso
If the caddie lovers want to promote double-bagging, why not use the Doublemint Gum twins as a paradigm--two hot teenage girls sharing your bag? Far more interesting than having one alcoholic 50-something trying to serve you and the other guy who is always on the other side of the fairway and doesn't know his 5-iron from a hole in the ground and then spitting on your shoes when you only tip him $50 for the service......
My vote is for the elevator operators (RIP)--at least they knew what they were doing, and got a quarter every time they took you up or down.....
Ricardomundo
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Rich,
You need to out a liitle more. Going up? ;D
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Bandon has built a great caddie program by attracting caddies from all over the country and beyond who want to work hard. Turn it into a single bag only program and you'd lose a lot of great caddies. Would singling everyone and chasing away those who actually want to make a decent income result in better caddie programs? In the case of Bandon absolutely not.
David,
Do you think a Double deserves $100/bag regardless how good he/she is? That works out to about $100,000/yr., mostly tax-free (assuming he gets out twice/day, 5 days a week, which may be possible at a place like Bandon). Would you rather carry a single for $100 or a double for $120? Would you rather pay $100 for a single or $60 for 1/2 a double?
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My ethereal friend; enough of the reductio ad absurdum ( I know the Ghost is a sucker for Latin). There is no doubt that all things being relatively equal, 2 single caddies provide a superior experience to a double caddy. I suspect your "adversary" will concede that point. However, I further suggest that, in your zeal to prove the obvious, you overstate the evils of double bagging. A good, motivated double caddy can provide an excellent experience. If the players are sympathetic and willing to chip in a little, like rake an occasional bunker (admit it, you have done so as have I and we didn't really mind) it makes things go a little quicker and easier. So if your point is that 2 good singles are better than a double, you prevail. But it does not follow that a good double cannot help you enjoy a great day of golf. Of course that is even easier at your home course where you don't need much help.
SL -
I think everyone would be much more conciliatory if the pricing reflected the reality you mention above.
Both golfers and caddies understand there is an inevitable decline in service on a double-bag. So why is there "per bag" pricing? We're hiring a caddy, not a bag. I understand and empathize that a career caddie needs the doubles to make it feasible. But does it have to be double pricing? What's wrong with a system of $80 for a single, $120-140 for a double?
My god, make it $159.50 for the double, but at least give some acknowledgement that you realize the service will be less. The 2x pricing simply offends my common sense as a CPA.
I don't know how many resorts offer a discount for the double, but every club I've been to in the US sticks to this ridiculous "per bag" system. Haven't found one yet that has acknowledged what everyone seems to agree upon.
El Gringo - is it different over there? You seemed shocked by the notion that a double bag receives 2x the fee, so I'm wondering if the ridiculous pricing is a US custom.
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In response to the suggestion that someone receive less per bag when carrying doubles I have never heard of it in practice. I don't remember the last time I had a single caddie. I would think that caddie programs would want to avoid any notion that their double bag service is in any way inferior to their single bag service by dropping the per bag price. That ain't happening.
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Well for what it's worth, the last time I play the Ocean Course at Kiawah the caddies were double-bagging in the morning round (four golfers all walking, two caddies). I gave what I considered a fairly generous gratuity to the one assigned to myself and Rob Miller.
When I went back out for my afternoon round I was playing a single. Different caddie and of course he was single-bagging. I gave him 20 bucks more than I had the morning guys because I figured a) he was making less total out of the loop and b) I was getting full service. As it turns out, we played in about 2:45 by ourselves in the afternoon so he per-hour rate was fine. But still less total money at the end of the day than if I'd been another double for him.
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In response to the suggestion that someone receive less per bag when carrying doubles I have never heard of it in practice. I don't remember the last time I had a single caddie. I would think that caddie programs would want to avoid any notion that their double bag service is in any way inferior to their single bag service by dropping the price. That ain't happening.
And isn't that shocking to you?
I appreciate that a double caddy is going to be working harder, and I'm usually the guy dragging the rake or getting my own divot out of habit. But there's no way a double bag is doing 2x as much as a single. Again, I don't mind having doubles when I play and gladly accept the limitations. But the pricing model just stuns me.
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Kevin,
If it makes you feel any better, think of double-bagging as the norm. No caddie in this day and age has any desire to carry single bag for "single" pay. The entire profession is based on the double bag.
So the good news is if you luck into a single-bagging situation they don't make you pay EXTRA for the privilege. Except of course for those suckers among us who still chip it a bit extra for the single...
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Brent,
Despite wishing to close on this thread personally, I can't let certain comments go unaddressed when so many don't know the reality. Stating that the double-bag scenario is the foundation of caddie golf today is inaccurate. Most every facility offering caddies in the U.K has single caddies offering the service in the main. It is rare to see a double caddie on a Scottish golf course from my experience.
Many stateside clubs also have a heavy, single caddie-based model. Most Evans caddie programs, and many others, favor singles. The career caddie folks generally double. It's economics. That said, many older caddies love the single bag, and class caddie clubs AND their caddies often adopt the singles mantra during the slower shoulder seasons to keep everybody working. Again common sense guides them, not some uptight concerns about what the caddie might NOT be doing.
Internationally, in countries such as India and Argentina, and others here on GCA with experience could speak to this as well, singles are often the main way it is done. The cart-ball Asian model, with the gals each handling a cart with two players, offers another scenario.
There are many ways caddie golf is provided. The double-bag for life assertion is just one of them. It does NOT define the entire enterprise. Not even close.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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I suppose I should limit my comments to resort golf as I do not frequently play at private clubs where caddies are the norm. The only two USA private clubs I can think of are Cypress Point (double) and Sage Valley (single). The rest of my caddie experience has been resorts.
In fact, since the original tenor of the thread seemed to be along the lines of caddying at private golf clubs, far outside my own personal experience, I think it's best for me to bow out of the discussion. Hope I have not too seriously offended anyone from the caddie-centric culture with which I am unfamiliar.
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OK,
I've been chided for my $100,000 comment which may have been an exageration. Nobody get 2 doubles a day year round. Of course that means they have more time to pursue other employment or have free time. I heartily agree that if forced to take a double the suggested fee should be less per bag. If a guy does a heroic effort, or if you win a big match with his help, you are free to tip whatever you feel is appropriate. I just chafe at the idea of paying the same rate per bag for a double, regardless of who's carrying.
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I would rather carry my own bag than take a double. All they do is slow me down. I'm willing to bet that on 75% of my shots, it's my turn to hit and I know what club I want to use, what shot I want to play, and I'm ready to hit my shot - but my caddie is not to my ball yet. So I'm forced to sit there and pick my butt and stare at the clouds or whatever until he finally arrives. Anybody who thinks that's worth paying for is out of their mind. I'd rather carry my bag and give the money to Evans Scholars. At least I'd get to hit my shots when I'm ready....
Agreed on all counts.
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I would rather carry my own bag than take a double. All they do is slow me down. I'm willing to bet that on 75% of my shots, it's my turn to hit and I know what club I want to use, what shot I want to play, and I'm ready to hit my shot - but my caddie is not to my ball yet. So I'm forced to sit there and pick my butt and stare at the clouds or whatever until he finally arrives. Anybody who thinks that's worth paying for is out of their mind. I'd rather carry my bag and give the money to Evans Scholars. At least I'd get to hit my shots when I'm ready....
Agreed on all counts.
+1 would carry my own sticks versus have a double bagger- not much bang for your buck there.
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I would rather carry my own bag than take a double. All they do is slow me down. I'm willing to bet that on 75% of my shots, it's my turn to hit and I know what club I want to use, what shot I want to play, and I'm ready to hit my shot - but my caddie is not to my ball yet. So I'm forced to sit there and pick my butt and stare at the clouds or whatever until he finally arrives. Anybody who thinks that's worth paying for is out of their mind. I'd rather carry my bag and give the money to Evans Scholars. At least I'd get to hit my shots when I'm ready....
Agreed in spades.
You may recall that on that memorable day (it must be, even for you, CPC and Olympic-Lake) over a decade ago, I hit three balls left of #16 green. Balls 1 and 2 were on the beach and playable, with 1 only a few feet from the water. I should have taken a SW with me, but when I climbed up to get a club, Barry was no where to be found- I think he was either tending to you or maybe the guy who had laid up left. By the time Barry gets there and as I am climbing back down, a wave takes my first ball slowly on its journey to Japan.
Worse was the last KP I attended when our opponents in a four-ball took a caddie and the A player couldn't pull a club out of his bag without a long consultation with his hire. The caddie was working his butt-off and even the other partner was getting upset about the flow of the match, but it was really one of the least satisfying matches I've had in the numerous gca.com events I've attended.
My two most recent caddie experiences have been very good. In one, the caddie drove a single cart for our threesome of walkers. The other, a forecaddie hustled to track balls, give distances, read putts, plus most other normal duties while our foursome took two carts.
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There is NO question that caddie golf needs improvement in areas and better support. WHERE is the reinvestment...when MILLIONS are shoveled at First Tee and the various, Land-of-the-Lost initiatives troted out these days? And you guys blame only the caddies. Please.
If you'd rather carry your own bag....then don't take caddies and play where that flies. :-X Flooding caddie yards with singles has NO SHOT...unless playing hookey again becomes a national past-time. As VK said,"This thread has consumed all the hot air...see ya!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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I found a very simple solution to the problem of having to wait for your caddy. On the few times when one ball was right, and one ball was left, I would make sure the player to play second, wouldn't leave my side without a club, sometimes two. If it was the wrong club I'd tell him/her that I'd make sure he'd get the correct one. It was rarely, if ever, the wrong one.
I love the story about Bispo carrying all 4 bags. He told the players he'd just walk down the middle and they could come to him. There were no other caddies available.
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Dave, The situation we've described was a rarity. If there was something to discuss, I'd be there to discuss it. Plus, I would always tell the player if he wanted different, I'd get it to him. Perhaps because my only experience was on the peninsula, the types would get were usually really good golfers, or, corporate outing types. The good golfer groups find their rhythm and rarely strayed, while the corporates were either apathetic, clueless or both.
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Kris, Archie, VK: Do you see those last two posts? Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.
You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots. Think long and hard about what that means.
I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum. And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college. And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this, I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually). ;)
Think what you want of me. But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue. A big one. If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance. This can't go on forever. You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere. It's not personal. It's strictly business.
Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?
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El Gringo - is it different over there? You seemed shocked by the notion that a double bag receives 2x the fee, so I'm wondering if the ridiculous pricing is a US custom.
Kevin, I suspect El G may have opted out of reading this thread, so here's another UK-based view:
1. There is no caddie golf in the vast majority of British clubs
2. The overwhelming majority of British golfers, even club members, will never have taken a caddie. They would regard it as a ridiculous extra expense. Remember the average British golf club has an annual subscription of around £1,000, less in many parts of the country.
3. A few of the very, very high end London clubs have caddies available (though quite a few can get you one if you request in advance). Only Wentworth West, as far as I am aware, requires visitors to take one; nowhere I know of demands that members do
4. The only significant caddie culture in the UK is at the high end links courses that have lots of overseas visitors. If Brits go to St Andrews, they might take a caddie, but most would just put their bag on their shoulder, or on a trolley, and walk.
5. I've never, ever seen or heard of a caddie carrying double in the UK.
6. I personally have never paid for a caddie in the UK. I played at Dundonald, the Ayrshire links that is part of Loch Lomond Golf Club once, on 'freeloading media scum' rate, and the club's marketing person arranged a caddie for me; that was my only UK caddie experience in hundreds and hundreds of rounds.
Adam
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Kris, Archie, VK: Do you see those last two posts? Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.
You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots. Think long and hard about what that means.
I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum. And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college. And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this, I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually). ;)
Think what you want of me. But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue. A big one. If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance. This can't go on forever. You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere. It's not personal. It's strictly business.
Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?
Jeff, It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys! ;)
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A couple of comments about caddies in the UK -
1) There have been various tax/benefit authority crackdowns and investigations over the years as some 'caddies' were also claiming unemployment benefit (no disrespect to genuine caddies intended).
2) There has become a practice at some premier clubs, where if you have a walking disability and need to use a buggy, you must also pay for a caddy to drive it. So you pay twice. This is pretty deplorable I reckon.
All the best
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Kris, Archie, VK: Do you see those last two posts? Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.
You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots. Think long and hard about what that means.
I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum. And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college. And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this, I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually). ;)
Think what you want of me. But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue. A big one. If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance. This can't go on forever. You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere. It's not personal. It's strictly business.
Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?
Jeff, It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys! ;)
Jack:
220 kids is a handful to train, even at Chicago Public School classroom teacher/student ratio levels. There's a value in having a senior caddy around, assuming they have the right attitude, care about the program, are willing to take charge of any group and they themselves have developed the skills and knowledge that needs to be passed down.
Four giggling kids stumbling around a green and dragging my bag down a fairway offer less value than a seasoned vet carrying double with an eye on the two freshman carrying single for the rest of the foursome. But that's my take, and as with most things around here this entire debate is just a battle of subjective viewpoints.
Sven
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I have had a wide range of experience with caddies, ranging from overseas, resort, private and ages from high school to seasoned veterans. My take on caddies is I do not care if he is a single or double, most important thing is if I liked hanging out with him for 4 hours. I did have some really good caddies, that were also really good players, that help me score better... and I have had some caddies that just started and couldn't read the greens or help me at all. However, if they were nice guys and fun to hang out with, I had a better time then I would without them. One of my favorite caddies was terrible at trying to read greens and kept getting down on himself, my friends and I told not to worry about and just have fun with us.
Whenever I go someplace that offers caddies, I almost always request one and ask the Pro how much to pay him including tip. What is shocking is this ranges from $40 - $125. Since I am guest, I pay what they tell me no matter how good or bad the caddie was - only a couple of times I regretted paying the caddie what was recommended.
We do not have caddies at my home club, but I wonder how often I would use one if we did?
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Kris, Archie, VK: Do you see those last two posts? Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.
You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots. Think long and hard about what that means.
I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum. And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college. And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this, I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually). ;)
Think what you want of me. But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue. A big one. If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance. This can't go on forever. You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere. It's not personal. It's strictly business.
Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?
Jeff, It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys! ;)
Jack:
220 kids is a handful to train, even at Chicago Public School classroom teacher/student ratio levels. There's a value in having a senior caddy around, assuming they have the right attitude, care about the program, are willing to take charge of any group and they themselves have developed the skills and knowledge that needs to be passed down.
Four giggling kids stumbling around a green and dragging my bag down a fairway offer less value than a seasoned vet carrying double with an eye on the two freshman carrying single for the rest of the foursome. But that's my take, and as with most things around here this entire debate is just a battle of subjective viewpoints.
Sven
Sven, 220 is the total number and has actually decreased from 300 + when I caddied 8 yrs in the 70s and 80s. That number may be deceiving as 120 probably show on a given day. Attrition amongst the younger caddies occurs- not such a bad thing as you get the kids that really want to be there. Our caddymaster does a series of training lessons and the younger kids are mentored by going out in groups with older kids or members who are willing to teach the kids. If you are looking for a Beverly caddy to be giving you club advice or read every putt for you that probably isn't going to work with the majority of our kids. They will give you yardages, carry your clubs, keep them clean, find your ball,etc. As a member and past caddy I can tell where the putts are going so that's no big deal for me. Just find my ball and carry my sticks is all that I require. The membership has been very supportive over the years by hiring neighborhood kids that are just trying to make some money for a Parochial school payment or may be trying to save for college. As a result of some great kids and a very generous membership,Beverly this year had 10 Recipients of The Evans Scholarship. We lead the program with over 300 Alums. Beverly also has a long history in being very financially supportive of the Evans Scholarship which allowed the WGA to put roughly 840 kids in excellent colleges across the country. Some of these kids may not have gone on without this scholarship. Some pretty incredible success stories from this program. Also, our kids are paid very well- somewhere in the $50 -80 range which is a good buck for a youngster not to mention the fact that future golfers may be introduced this way. At quite a few Chicago area clubs you have alot of members that got their start looping and moved on to bigger and better things.
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Jack:
I'm familiar with Beverly's program, and think it is an exemplary model. But your post does point out what many seem to be missing, which is that there is no one model that will work everywhere. Developing a caddy program is highly dependent on the wants and needs of the membership, resort or whatever other entity owns the course. The Bandon model wouldn't work at Beverly, and vice versa, and there are a bunch of other types of programs that wouldn't work at either.
Even within the club, there should be room to accommodate the guy who needs no advice and likes to shoulder his own bag, the member that likes to support the kids in the program and the guest that wants to play well and is looking for a tour guide.
Sven
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Kris, Archie, VK: Do you see those last two posts? Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.
You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots. Think long and hard about what that means.
I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum. And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college. And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this, I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually). ;)
Think what you want of me. But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue. A big one. If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance. This can't go on forever. You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere. It's not personal. It's strictly business.
Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?
Jeff, It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys! ;)
Jack,
That sounds like a wonderful program -kudos to you and those who embrace it.
I"m unclear why though I'm supposed to tell my members, outings, and guests, why they can't have the caddies they requested and that they have to take a push cart (which would be impossible on our terrain) because I've decided that the best way to promote my caddie program is by having pushcarts 5 days a week for 4 1/2 months a year instead of caddies ;D.
What's wrong with a sprinkling of both, with the option to do whatever you want?
That way caddies are available on weekdays, new caddies can learn from old, and the local economy is provided some employment.
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Shiv; I am with you 100% on this point. A kid shows up, follows the rules and is willing to work, he should go out before any doubles unless there is a shortage that day and the caddymaster knows the caddy will et out based on tee times.
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Shivas,
So you're telling me a member who requests caddies to take out three, or say 7, of his most important clients, or friends at Shinnecock, National, Sebonack, or Friar's Head should carry his own or take a push cart?
That's works for you and I , but not someone who has requested a caddie for the course knowledge or experience, or is physically unable to handle their bag.
There are other days of the week a golf operation has to operate beside Saturday and Sunday morning.
If you only offer caddies when school's out it seems to me you are doing the opposite of promoting caddying, and walking (for many)
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Dave:
What you describe is a problem at your club. Fix it. If you joined a club where you don't have a voice in how things work, that's your problem. My guess is that you haven't taken step one to get this addressed in your own backyard.
It doesn't happen the way you described everywhere. Some places use a draw and rotation system, some place don't allow doubles unless there aren't enough caddies available. Some places don't start on 1 and 10. Some places have judged how many caddies they can use, and hired accordingly. Some places give the player a broad bit of discretion as to what to pay. If the service was poor, bottom it out, if it was great, pay what you deem fit.
Sven
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That's all good and fine.
So what are you doing to change things at your club?
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So what are you doing to change things at your club?
There's a caddie problem at Reverse Jans National?
Surely any caddie who didn't hustle would be struck down with frostbite?
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That's all good and fine.
So what are you doing to change things at your club?
I've voiced my personal opinions on this issue, generally, but the answer to your question is a club matter and thus none of your business.
You're the one airing your dirty laundry in the street.
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Sven: I've seen it virtually everywhere. Your nerve in lecturing me on this topic borders on comical. I've forgotten more leather Burton bags than you've ever seen. ;) You think this is limited to one club? LOL. It's everywhere. Frankly, the clubs around Chicago are among the very BEST when it comes to caddy programs ... and yet they ALLL send out doubles early even when they know full well they have a surplus of caddies -- forcing kids pick their ass in the shack for hours unnecessarily.
Dave- As far as the "shoulder season" reference that would include the Spring as well because the last thing I knew high school kids got out out of school in June and went back in September. That leaves half the season on both ends exclusive of weekends that need to be covered. There is a lot of golf played during the week at private clubs and there are not going to be many fine caddie programs in Chi Town or anywhere else if you can't cover both ends of the season because you have driven the regulars that show up day in and day out down the road. I caddied too and we realized there was a pecking order as to who got out first and we were ok with that. That's the way of the world and not just in the caddie yard.
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Sven: I've seen it virtually everywhere. Your nerve in lecturing me on this topic borders on comical. I've forgotten more leather Burton bags than you've ever seen. ;) You think this is limited to one club? LOL. It's everywhere. Frankly, the clubs around Chicago are among the very BEST when it comes to caddy programs ... and yet they ALLL send out doubles early even when they know full well they have a surplus of caddies -- forcing kids pick their ass in the shack for hours unnecessarily.
Dave- As far as the "shoulder season" reference that would include the Spring as well because the last thing I knew high school kids got out out of school in June and went back in September. That leaves half the season on both ends exclusive of weekends that need to be covered. There is a lot of golf played during the week at private clubs and there are not going to be many fine caddie programs in Chi Town or anywhere else if you can't cover both ends of the season because you have driven the regulars that show up day in and day out down the road. I caddied too and we realized there was a pecking order as to who got out first and we were ok with that. That's the way of the world and not just in the caddie yard.
Tim,
Would you stop with the real world practical examples. ;)
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I'll repeat, if its a problem at your club, take the initiative and get it fixed.
All you are doing by getting on your soap box and expressing your "personal opinion" is telling other people how to do things at their clubs. Even you can see the contradiction in your words in this thread. Or perhaps not, as that would take an iota of intelligence.
Sven
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Really? That's all you've got.
Its a big world Dave. You need to take off the blinders and understand that your little theory of how things should be isn't going to work everywhere.
If that's all I've added to the thread, I'm satisfied.
Sven
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Shake it off, take a lap. You're starting to get overheated.
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I don't appreciate idiotic comments from people who have no idea what they're talking about. I don't need to take a lap. I'd rather just run laps around you instead, which isn't terribly hard to do, truth be told.
Don't waste your time. Its a lot more enjoyable for the rest of us if you keep trying to run circles around Mucci.
Sven
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All I've got is 4 decades of experience with caddies from every perspective. I know what I'm talking about. All you've got is a hard-on to pick a fight.
You were a caddie and now you take caddies. Join the club. Is there some other perspective that we should be aware of? Additionally as far as you being one of the "BIG-THREE" of caddie takers on a board full of 1500 guys of which you might know 1/5 that seems a bit presumptuous. Any empirical evidence to support that claim? :o
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This thread has had its moments of descending into a clustercuss, but has still been quite interesting to follow as an Aussie who has played a lot in the UK and a little bit (30 rounds at 16 courses - 33% with caddie) in the US.
The only caddie I have had outside the US is my old man caddying for me when I used to play in junior tournaments.
I like Jeff Warne's contributions on here, but thought this was absurd:
I'm supposed to tell my members, outings, and guests, why they can't have the caddies they requested and that they have to take a push cart (which would be impossible on our terrain
Few people on this board are likely familiar with Windsor GC or Springwood GC outside Sydney, a few more perhaps with Bonnie Doon. Older members at all three, and plenty of other really steep courses in Sydney, carry their own bag or push in around on a trolley. As far as I'm concerned, if you can play golf on it walking with caddies, you can get around with a trolley. It might be more physically demanding, but can be done. And that's before you look at battery-powered trolleys that require no effort to push.
As for the other matters at hand, I have a few little bits and pieces that the debate in the preceding 10 pages has compelled me to weigh-in on.
Master/servant
The master-servant aspect of the relationship between player and caddie is something I really struggled with the first few times I took a caddie, because it is so totally at odds with how I was raised. maybe because I know that, half a world away, I grew up in a situation where I'd have been a caddie at a US-style private club, not a member!
And so I would find myself trying to chat with the caddies as well as with my playing partners, even though none of them were chatting to the caddies much. It was a completely foreign experience.
But what I saw at a few places I have played was the member hosting me had a regular caddie looping for us, so they knew each other well, had a good rapport and the whole feeling was a lot more comfortable.
I fondly remember walking up the 9th at Lancaster with Rory C and our caddie both pissing themselves discussing the Aussie TV show Angry Boys (if you like to laugh, get it, or Summer Heights High, also by Chris Lilley). That whole day was like the six of us spending an afternoon together without any feeling of "us and them". The golfer's attitude obviously has a big role to play in how the dynamic is.
Cost/value
There's a good reason caddies aren't commonplace in the UK and Australia. When you're paying only AU$3000 or less a year for membership and play once a week, a caddie at AU$80 means you're paying more for caddies than you are to belong to the club.
So maybe caddies get only $30, say, for a loop, but that still means your caddie bill is 50% of your dues. The economics simply doesn't add up.
And I actually quite enjoy carrying my bag and making my own decisions, so even if there were kids happy to loop for $15 a round, I don't reckon I'd do it all the time.
Socialism
A controversial word, but that's what it feels like in some senses. In some places, it seems caddie programs are shoehorned in where there's not a demand for them and people of wildly varying talents get paid the same money for their work.
And a career caddie has no right to expect a job any more than any other person. Journalism has been through the wringer in recent years and I know plenty of people (and am one myself, twice) who watched their job disappear and had to accept that times change. My father-in-law spent his career in photographics and saw the industry for developing prints shrink to nothing in only a couple of years. he had to accept that and find a new line of business.
I don't see that caddies should be immune to those natural changes and evolution that affect the rest of us in our professions.
I appreciate the important place of caddying in the history of US golf, but I wonder if it has any significant widespread presence in its future - though at certain clubs it is perfectly natural, fits like a hand in a glove and will comfortably last for decades and centuries more.
Things change and maybe kids will come to enter the game through other avenues. Things evolve, life changes and I think the proponents of caddie golf need to amend how the system works if they want there to be glory days ahead for caddying in the game of golf.
Doubles
I feel bad for playing partners who get the shit end of the stick with a bloke who is carrying double. Tom Dunne got it bad out on Long Island with me one day when our caddie split his attention about 80/20 because I was playing really well and Tom had a slow start.
One upside of a bloke carrying double IMO is that they're not all over you so much.
Generally, the services I most value from a caddie don't involve carrying my bag - ball spotting off the tee, a little course management advice, tending the flag and reading the occasional tricky putt.
We had a forecaddie at The Renaissance Club and that service was pretty much perfect for what I desire from a caddie. my tiny carry bag and 12 clubs weigh about 7.5kg, so taking the weight off is no big deal.
Just some random views from an outsider.
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It seems to me there are a number of issues that have surfaced here:
1. Most full service private clubs in major U.S. metro areas feel the need to offer a full-time caddie program, either as a service to their members, to keep up with the Joneses and the other posh clubs in town, as a charitable enterprise and summer employment for the youth of the area, or some combination of the three. In order to do this, given how fat and lazy most Americans are, caddies are often required to be taken when they are available, regardless of whether one is walking or riding. This adds a large "hidden" cost to the price of membership and while providing a service desired by some members forces others to take caddies that they wouldn't otherwise.
2. The level of service offered by caddies varies greatly from a phenomenal guide who can shave a few strokes off your round and help add to a great day out to a hindrance to one's enjoyment of the game or worse, plain dead weight that gives advice that costs you strokes and slows down your game.
3. It is generally acknowledge that single caddies are vastly superior to doubles, yet they are often not available, due to supply and/or greed, even at the best clubs or places like Bandon.
4. Caddies at clubs in the states that don't have a mandatory caddie program are often only available if reserved in advance, or not at all.
5. Pushcarts are often not allowed at many clubs, even if caddies aren't available.
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Scott,
I thought you did a pretty good job summarizing the issues.
There is no one answer, and it is always case and club specific, which is why options are always the best.
I think you took my quote quiote a bit out of context of the discussion. As did at least one other who said push carts were a "simple" answer.
My quote was a response to a suggestion that professional caddies not be supplied during the week, so that their "spots" would be available for kids on the weekend. (i.e if only using single kids on weekends, it's gonna be hard to attract pros for weekdays) When I had questioned who would caddy during the week if only kids were employed for caddying.
I was not suggesting that push carts and walking were impossible or undesireable at all, in fact my members and I usually use this mode when travelling and playing courses abroad.
A push cart at our club is in fact impossible due to terrain,despite my many attempts to use one personally.
We have and are addressing many of these terrain issues we inherited from the original routing.
Telling a member or guest that they have to use a push cart when they specifically requested a caddie, would be as "absurd" as telling a member who wanted to walk that they had to ride, or telling a member who wanted to carry that they had to take a caddie (which is somewhat common due to attempting to support caddie programs)
The fact that you, your frends, and I would never think to take a caddie when not required, does not change the fact that certain people do in fact want (and in many cases need) a caddie on a terrain challenged course, and my job is to honor their requests, and consider ALL situations, not just what suits me or what I know, like so many on here do in their discussion of many topics.
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Absolutely agree that the ideal situation is the presence of options - walking and carrying, using a trolley, taking an caddie/forecaddie or riding if you absolutely must.
We pay a lot (even those of us paying comparatively little in Aus and the UK) to belong to golf clubs, so being forced to do X, Y or Z against your wishes in regards to getting around the course is less than ideal..
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Jeff what terrain issues prevent the use of a trolley? I've played many a course where a mountain goat would be extremely comfortable but where a trolley works fine. I can only think you have 8' stone walls, rivers without bridges or shingle beaches to cross?
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Frankly, the clubs around Chicago are among the very BEST when it comes to caddy programs ... and yet they ALLL send out doubles early even when they know full well they have a surplus of caddies -- forcing kids pick their ass in the shack for hours unnecessarily.
This statement is flat out wrong. The only misinformation in this thread is coming from you.
I'd be happy to debate actual practices with you, but I won't waste my time if all you're going to do is throw out platitudes and insults.
Sven
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Dave:
You don't know me, you don't know my base of knowledge and on those fronts you don't know what you're talking about.
I have not once suggested what others should do at their clubs. I've suggested that what should be done at any club is what works best for that membership, which is different from how you described my statements. If that means they want doubles, or singles, or only kids under 18, or only pushcarts, that is up to the club. What I did note is that not every club in Chicago sends out senior caddies as doubles to the detriment of the young kids waiting in the shack. That is fact.
But thank you for thinking I'm a young man. George Freeman will tell you otherwise, as he thinks I'm old enough to be his Dad.
Sven
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All other things being equal, I generally prefer to take a single, for the reasons Dave mentions. But the practical reality at my club is that we don't have the kind of program where kids show up in the summer to loop, and so we have a (pretty small) group of guys who are out there trying to make a living, usually by supplementing the income they earn elsewhere. None of them is your typical pro jock; instead, each is a good, solid caddy who knows a bunch of members, has a good attitude, works hard. Having gotten to know most of them, and considering that a lot of the job is physical labor (double-bagging is not easy IMHO), I'm more than happy to have them double-bag so they can make it worth their time. [And when you think about their hourly wage, you need to consider more than just the time you spent on the course.]
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From a non-Chicagoan,you guys don't appreciate how good you've got it.You're arguing the merits of a single bag carrier versus a double while most of us play at places that haven't seen a caddie since JFK was President.
I doubt if I'd take a caddie every round,but I'd certainly like to have the option--single or double.
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JM,
You wouldn't have the option, you'd have to take one every time if they were available whether you were walking or riding.
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JM,
You wouldn't have the option, you'd have to take one every time if they were available whether you were walking or riding.
Jud:
That, too, is also not the case everywhere in Chicago.
Sven
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Jud; Many clubs in Chicago do not require cart riders to take a caddy. To my knowledge,those that that have a caddy program require one, if available, for walkers.
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Many do if available, don't they?
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Some require runners wiith carts but not nearly as prevalent as 25 years ago.
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Even at some Evans Scholar stalwart clubs here in town, there are certain members who get away with riding in a cart without a forecaddie, even when there are kids waiting in the shack. I personally find that irritating, but many others aren't as put off as I am. Sometimes it's an old-guy rule, where they don't want to spend the extra money and nobody wants to argue with them. Sometimes it's an irritating member that the starter just winks at and lets it slide.
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I'm in no way trying to be an advocate for cheapskate members who try to skirt the rules, I just thought that required caddies meant required in my experience.
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Gentlemen,
The quintessential caddy plying his trade! Could well be, in years to come, one nearby Scot scraping a penny or twa thegither! Paying for his sins of yesteryear!
(http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a460/Colinmacqueen/33edcceb-6e0d-4afa-96f2-6e57c57beb42_zpsee72d00d.jpg) (http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/Colinmacqueen/media/33edcceb-6e0d-4afa-96f2-6e57c57beb42_zpsee72d00d.jpg.html)
Cheers Colin
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I'm in no way trying to be an advocate for cheapskate members who try to skirt the rules, I just thought that required caddies meant required in my experience.
Lets keep this post going longer, this has now turned into a car wreck, I love it when the name calling of continues....."cheapskate", not even sure what to say to that! I guess the only correct ideas are agreeing with your point of view no matter what it is!
And if you don't agree with the elite that post on this board you are of not worthy of walking on a course that cost $0 or $100,000 +, come to think of it everyone with enough money to join a club should give the rest of there money to the Evans or my favorite charity because I know how to best spend everyone's money and by the way I feal everyone should ride saga ways and take a left handed caddie!
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Sean,
What would you call a member who joined a club where caddies are required to be taken every time out who didn't take one? If he preferred to play the local public goat track with the rest of the riff raff and save his pennies for spam and malt liquor perhaps he should have read the member handbook before joining imperialist capitalist pig golf and country club.
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Sean,
What would you call a member who joined a club where caddies are required to be taken every time out who didn't take one?
That is the difference between you and I would no call that person anything!
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Sean,
What would you call a member who joined a club where caddies are required to be taken every time out who didn't take one?
That is the difference between you and I would no call that person anything!
Apparently you have no qualms about making a dig about the "elite" hereabouts. Welcome to Thunderdome. Way to start off with a bang.
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Sven: I've seen it virtually everywhere. Your nerve in lecturing me on this topic borders on comical. I've forgotten more leather Burton bags than you've ever seen. ;) You think this is limited to one club? LOL. It's everywhere. Frankly, the clubs around Chicago are among the very BEST when it comes to caddy programs ... and yet they ALLL send out doubles early even when they know full well they have a surplus of caddies -- forcing kids pick their ass in the shack for hours unnecessarily.
Dave,
That is not true at OFCC
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The most ridiculous thing in this whole thread was the suggestion that Sven is young.
Though handing out nude lady golf tees at least qualifies him as young at heart.