Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Brad Klein on March 06, 2013, 06:07:49 AM
-
Trump is easy to caricature and ridicule; it's harder to explain how he has enjoyed a certain level of success in the golf industry. I am sure most people on this site don't share his aesthetic. But it's still interesting to see how he goes about his business. And for a journalist, it's a challenge to present him live and in person. As I profile him at Doral, it's clear Gil Hanse takes him very seriously:
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/05/major-makeover-trump-has-big-vision-doral/
-
Brad,
Friends of mine just returned from playing Doral.
They said that the courses were in excellent condition and that the staff treated them extremely well.
I guess the right time to go there is just before their PGA event.
Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.
-
Seriously Pat, what are you getting for this endless Trump promotional work? :)
Needs a bigger fountain. ;D
-
At a time when the game needs a boost you can not deny that Mr. Trump has the energy and passion to provide it. I wonder what he could do in the public golf market?
-
Seriously Pat, what are you getting for this endless Trump promotional work? :)
Needs a bigger fountain. ;D
When he stops paying me ;D
Paul, you know, there are people who like fountains
-
Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.
Sorry Pat,
I don't know how bigger cascades, bigger island greens and bigger self-proclaimed "Championship US OPEN worthy courses" have been good for golf. And don't get me started about the clubhouses that all of these courses must certainly have to match their "greatness"....
I think this site deserves more explanations if you're going to state something like this!
YP
-
Can anyone name anything Mr. Trump has done for public golf?
WW
-
Golf is a leisure activity undertaken by choice not necessity. Any such activity needs its promoters as well as practitioners.
It needs its characters as well as character and Trump understands the modern world of promotion and how to create interest and attention. Doesn't mean we have to like it for it to be good for the game
-
Brad,
Nice article. You report that Gil is balking at Trump's plan for #15 to feature an island green. Despite that, yesterday Trump said #15 is "going to be an island green essentially, a beautiful island green."
Where do you think this will net out?
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/3/6/the-trump-blue-monster-renovation-plan-revealed.html (http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/3/6/the-trump-blue-monster-renovation-plan-revealed.html)
-
I was just looking at the Google Earth sat views of the course, comparing with the renovation plan. I guess it's the first time I've looked at the course from above... The bunkering, oh my.
Can anyone provide a brief history who has made changes to the course, and in particular, who did the bunkering that is there now?
-
Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.
Sorry Pat,
I don't know how bigger cascades, bigger island greens and bigger self-proclaimed "Championship US OPEN worthy courses" have been good for golf. And don't get me started about the clubhouses that all of these courses must certainly have to match their "greatness"....
I think this site deserves more explanations if you're going to state something like this!
Yannick,
Which Trump courses have you played ?
-
Can anyone name anything Mr. Trump has done for public golf?
Wade,
Why is he obligated to do anything for public golf ?
-
I was just looking at the Google Earth sat views of the course, comparing with the renovation plan. I guess it's the first time I've looked at the course from above... The bunkering, oh my.
Can anyone provide a brief history who has made changes to the course, and in particular, who did the bunkering that is there now?
Tom, several people have altered the course including Ray Floyd
Wilson's work is long gone
-
Regardless of any good he has done for the game, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. I am 100% sure Trump doesn't care if I ever play one of his courses, but I won't. Sometimes principles have to win out over desires.
Although I like the taste of veal, I won't eat it. I can't support a food that is made out of cruelty.
Although I like some of Michael Jackson's music, when one of his songs comes on the radio I turn the channel. I can't support a guy who had so many inappropriate relationships with kids.
Although I'm sure there are a few Trump courses I would love, I will never play one. I can't enjoy a product that was bankrolled by someone who treats those beneath him like dirt.
-
has been good for golf.
Would you mind elaborating?
-
has been good for golf.
Would you mind elaborating?
A fair question. Good luck getting a direct answer.
Instead, I'm waiting for the "why isn't he good for golf?" retort.
-
Very well done, Brad, thanks - I thought the writing excellent. And you capture something about him that I have always liked, and that I think important: he really does try to serve the interests of his customers, first and foremost, and he does it with hard work and attention to detail. (I think there is a certain and a certain kind of humility there, covered over by his meta-level bluster and self promotion.) I'm pretty sure he cares no less about golf/golf courses than does Mr. Keiser -- they are simply serving very different customers.
Peter
-
Regardless of any good he has done for the game, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. I am 100% sure Trump doesn't care if I ever play one of his courses, but I won't. Sometimes principles have to win out over desires.
Although I like the taste of veal, I won't eat it. I can't support a food that is made out of cruelty.
Although I like some of Michael Jackson's music, when one of his songs comes on the radio I turn the channel. I can't support a guy who had so many inappropriate relationships with kids.
Although I'm sure there are a few Trump courses I would love, I will never play one. I can't enjoy a product that was bankrolled by someone who treats those beneath him like dirt.
Dan,
Whom have you personally spoken with who either work for Trump or who used to work for Trump.
Every, let me repeat, every employee I've spoken to had nothing but positive things to say about him, so I'd like to know where you're getting your information from ?
-
has been good for golf.
Would you mind elaborating?
Sure,
For starters he rescued clubs that would have gone under
Second, he took a vacant piece of flat property and built a nice 27 hole golf course
Third, he's provided employment to many in the golf industry.
Now, let me ask you and Howard, what have you done for golf ?
How would you compare your contributions and accomplishments to those of Trump's ?
-
I'm pretty sure he cares no less about golf/golf courses than does Mr. Keiser -- they are simply serving very different customers.
Peter,that's a great observation which I agree with completely. DT has his loyal market and he knows how to serve it.
-
has been good for golf.
Would you mind elaborating?
Sure,
For starters he rescued clubs that would have gone under
Second, he took a vacant piece of flat property and built a nice 27 hole golf course
Third, he's provided employment to many in the golf industry.
Now, let me ask you and Howard, what have you done for golf ?
How would you compare your contributions and accomplishments to those of Trump's ?
Admittedly, I have not rescued any clubs, built 27 holes of golf, employed anybody or created any waterfalls.
When my net worth reaches $2.9 billion, I expect to change all that.
-
I was just looking at the Google Earth sat views of the course, comparing with the renovation plan. I guess it's the first time I've looked at the course from above... The bunkering, oh my.
Can anyone provide a brief history who has made changes to the course, and in particular, who did the bunkering that is there now?
I was doing and thinking the same. The greenside bunkers on 16!
-
Maybe Trump is so succesfull in golf because many golfers share his style and tastes, if we like it or not.....
-
What have I done for golf, and how would I compare my contributions and accomplishments to those of Donald Trump? First off, I'm going to print that question on a big 24x36 poster, hang it above my desk, and use it as motivation everyday. To answer, the fact that you don't know who I am or what I've done makes me feel pretty good about my career thus far.
As for Donald: I believe he's falling well short of sustainable development i.e., "development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." This is evidenced by the new Bronx course, Aberdeen, and Colts Neck. All three have well-documented social and/or environmental concerns. Sustainability has three legs: social, environment, economic. He's getting by pretty well on a one-legged stool, but eventually it's going to tip. When it happens, all those benefits about reclaimed land and local employment will be gone.
As for Doral, $150 million to buy and $150 million to renovate. I fundamentally disagree with that development philosophy. Which ties into your first comment, buying clubs that otherwise wouldn't have been rescued. In fact, Doral would've been rescued without Trump. They had other bids on the property, but Trump won, rightfully so, with the highest bid. However, if you believe courses like Doral are the ones that need rescuing then we don't have much more to talk about.
-
What have I done for golf, and how would I compare my contributions and accomplishments to those of Donald Trump? First off, I'm going to print that question on a big 24x36 poster, hang it above my desk, and use it as motivation everyday. To answer, the fact that you don't know who I am or what I've done makes me feel pretty good about my career thus far.
Unless you work for MI 6, MI 5, the CIA or the FBI, anonymity is never a career builder.
As for Donald: I believe he's falling well short of sustainable development i.e., "development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs."
That's pure nonsense and you're in no position, nor are you qualified to judge.
How have the needs of future generations been compromised by his development of Trump National in West Palm Beach ?
This is evidenced by the new Bronx course, Aberdeen, and Colts Neck.
Colts Neck was in dire straights with significant debt.
Tell us how Colts Neck would have been better off going under ?
Tell us how his taking over Colts Neck is compromising future generations
All three have well-documented social and/or environmental concerns.
What concerns is Trump responsible for ?
Have you played all three ?
Sustainability has three legs: social, environment, economic.
Sustainability has one leg, economic.
Without economic, it can't be sustained.
He's getting by pretty well on a one-legged stool, but eventually it's going to tip.
In your expert opinion, tell us why Trump National at West Palm Beach is going to tip ?
When it happens, all those benefits about reclaimed land and local employment will be gone.
Even if you were right, which I doubt, what about all the benefits and employment in the interim ?
Would those employees be better off today, without a job ?
As for Doral, $150 million to buy and $150 million to renovate. I fundamentally disagree with that development philosophy.
What's your track record, compared to his ?
Which ties into your first comment, buying clubs that otherwise wouldn't have been rescued. In fact, Doral would've been rescued without Trump.
By whom and for what use ?
They had other bids on the property, but Trump won, rightfully so, with the highest bid.
But, what were the other bidders intent with the property ?
To retain and improve it as a golf facility or for other purposes ?
Were they going to invest another $ 200,000,000 ?
However, if you believe courses like Doral are the ones that need rescuing then we don't have much more to talk about.
How many times have you played Doral, and over what time period.
Doral was a great Dick Wilson course.
-
Patrick, you have all the answers, so why ask questions in the first place?
-
Patrick, you have all the answers, so why ask questions in the first place?
You made definitive statements and I questioned you, so, the issue is, do you have the answers or were you just posturing ?
Would you address the questions posed to you.
Thanks
-
I find the guys public persona a bit much but my limited exposure to his product, it is very well done. While you can quibble about some of the architectural features the experience is first class.
Dan
-
Just a quick heads up - A call-in interview with Gil Hanse in the first half hour of today's Morning Drive on The Golf Channel.
I believe the program is re-run at 9AM Eastern.
-
Ok, so his personality rubs some the wrong way, really wrong, but he does give a quality golf experience. He is better in reality than in journalistic presentation. Still not who I would chose to hang with but I'm ok with that. He wouldn't chose me either. The concept of too big to fail strikes me when I think of his promotional endeavors.
-
Interesting chat with Gil. He discussed the Doral renovation, his relationship with the Donald, and a bit about the frustrations with all the delays being encountered with the Olympic course in Rio.
Gil mentioned that Jim McLean had possession of the original Wilson drawings.
Coincidentally, while I was watching the show, the crawler scrolled by with info about the Blue Monster indicating that the Ray Floyd/Ted McAnlis reno took place in 1966 and then a Jim McLean reno in 1999.
Interesting that some changes took place so soon after the course opened, if that date was accurate.
-
Interesting chat with Gil. He discussed the Doral renovation, his relationship with the Donald, and a bit about the frustrations with all the delays being encountered with the Olympic course in Rio.
Gil mentioned that Jim McLean had possession of the original Wilson drawings.
Coincidentally, while I was watching the show, the crawler scrolled by with info about the Blue Monster indicating that the Ray Floyd/Ted McAnlis reno took place in 1966 and then a Jim McLean reno in 1999.
Interesting that some changes took place so soon after the course opened, if that date was accurate.
Tom, The Ray Floyd reno took place in the late 90's.
It was quietly , and rightfully so, buried rather quickly.
-
I thought it was funny that Trump said that 16 was going to be an island green. Then Hanse says today that it will not be an island green.
So who wins?
-
I thought it was funny that Trump said that 16 was going to be an island green. Then Hanse says today that it will not be an island green.
So who wins?
GOLFERS
-
Brad,
Friends of mine just returned from playing Doral.
They said that the courses were in excellent condition and that the staff treated them extremely well.
I guess the right time to go there is just before their PGA event.
Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.
Patrick:
AMEN.
I agree. I recall one discussion with Mr Trump when I toured the "New" course before it was ready for play. I had stated that I was extremely impressed, aside for the one "island green" hole that was designed.
Come to find out that was the one hole that he had some input on. Ha. Open mouth, insert foot!
-
I used to bash "the Donald" but my opinion is changing. I want to see what he does to the course he bought in Jupiter, Fl that used to be called the Ritz. If he makes that successful and raises the real estate values, I'll be very impressed. And how he goes about doing it, will be interesting.
Admittedly, he is way smarter than me, much more successful and I even enjoy celebrity apprentice, I must have played Doral Blue Monster a 100 times over the years, and if he makes it better, makes the resort better, than that's good for golf.
He doesn't have to do anything for "public golf", that sort of sounds like something Obama would say, Trump is an opportunist and an entrepreneur first, last and always
-
Blake: My opinion of the Trump Organization is my own, not to be shared. Then again no one really cars what I personally think about the topic.
I read with great interest your short diatribe on "sustainability". Being trained in environmental science and planning, your 3 stool approach is academically correct; however Pat M. hit the nail quite briefly on the head....without economic sustainability, the other two items simply don't matter. Without economics, the land will revert back to its natural state - a series of successional lanscapes until the mature self-sustaining community evolves (it could be a grassland, forest, seaside dune, etc.) or be redeveloped into another land use.
-
Bruce, thanks for your input. I wouldn't advocate for every bankrupt course to revert to its pre-development state nor should we leave economics out of the conversation. That's not sustainable, either. Courses like Doral that provide green space in urban areas serve an important role. However, if Trump only considers the economic benefit without considering the environmental or social impacts, what differentiates his work from any of the work done in the 90s that created the golf industry problem? What makes Trump different than Bobby Ginn? Time will tell.
-
I suspect that Trump has done about as much for public golf as Coore and Crenshaw. I don't trust anyone who laments Trump buying Doral or building his course in Aberdeen but has no qualms with Trinity Forest or a $100 13-hole par 3 course.
Trump's fun to laugh at and says some pretty stupid things on a regular basis, but it's hard to argue that he's "bad for golf," whatever that means.
-
I think Trump "got it" awhile back. But some of us are hanging on to some of his older work and not letting some of the carictature stuff go.
I haven't been, but by almost all accounts Trump International Scotland is really good.
He hired Gil for Doral...I think that will prove to be a smart choice.
I played Trump Bedminster New and it was pretty good...not perfect, but if that is his older stuff...it ain't so bad. Now that he is "getting" it...look out.
My bet is he hits a homerun with Doral and lots of his new ventures.
-
I think Trump "got it" awhile back. But some of us are hanging on to some of his older work and not letting some of the carictature stuff go.
I haven't been, but by almost all accounts Trump International Scotland is really good.
He hired Gil for Doral...I think that will prove to be a smart choice.
I played Trump Bedminster New and it was pretty good...not perfect, but if that is his older stuff...it ain't so bad. Now that he is "getting" it...look out.
My bet is he hits a homerun with Doral and lots of his new ventures.
+1
I don't know much about the economics of spending $300 million in acquisition and renovation, but Doral will certainly benefit from Trump, and if anyone thinks they can handle the local challenges, it's Trump. It's certainly a hot market-and Miami and Trump have a lot in common. ;) ::)
I look forward to the best of Gil Wilson.
-
JeffWarne,
The absurdity of Blake's hypothesis is that Doral sits in in the middle of an industrial area sprinkled with condo's, in close proximity to the runways of one of the busiest airports in the world.
That's one hell of an environment he wants to protect.
Perhaps, if Blake had done his homework prior to posting, he wouldn't look so foolish.
It must be the water in Northern Michigan. ;D
-
First off, Donald Trump is building "public golf." The misconception for some of you is that the word means that it has to be affordable. Well it is affordable if your in a lower tax bracket or happen to work for Goldman-Sachs!
The truth is that for those that want to play golf and not be bothered masses, because of your celebrity or stature, or that maybe you like to be seen in places with those of a similar celebrity and stature, this man known as Donald Trump is getting it done. You may not like his personal taste in things--but that is over-looked by a great majority of you that don't get how he likes to treat his clientele, and he is providing a quality of service most of you naysayers have seemingly never seen or experienced, or that you have but didn't open yourself up to the possibility that despite being himself that he might just be on to something for those that do want that level of service or privacy at a pay-as-you-play level.
Look, I'm a person of little financial means. I struggle like many today, but I can say that the times I've experienced Ocean Trails aka Trump National Los Angeles before he owned it, the quality of service for the green fee paid there today was bar none far better then the original owners and developers could have originally dreamed!
The man knows how to entertain you and make you feel comfortable and has no problem telling you how great it is! He makes you feel as if you were a king, or member of the Fortune 500. This is what he has always done
In my lifetime, I never really liked being fawned over when wanting to go play the sport I love the most, but in due honesty, the times I've been invited there to play as a guest with non-architecturally interested friends who do frequent there its been a grand slam of great The clientele likes what he gives them for every green fee paid, as well as the service, which at Trump-LA are some of the most down to earth people I've ever met. Big surprise here: that guy some of you are vilifying, well, when he bought the place, he kept the entire staff that originated when the place opened, most of them locals from San Pedro, and when some staff has left to go to greener pastures or different careers, he has always looked at that original staff to promote from with-in! Even the Superintendent is the same guy since the placed opened. All of them greet you with a sincerity that mixes perfectly with that view of Catalina while lounging in the Southern California sun.....
And for what it's worth, the golf course, for as bad as the design is for our crowd, go there on a sunny and clear day, the place is packed, and its all golfing public which most are celebrities. The Donald has given them a perfect place to hide!
-
Tommy makes a good point. The golf market is not some singular thing; there are lots of niches and smaller markets by region/demographic/aesthetic/price. It's a matter of finding one that works. Bandon and Sand Hills are not models for golf; they are anomalies that exploited certain advantages. Of course they also embody certain design principles that are transferable to any golf course, which is why they are really interesting. I do think it would be better if there were more affordable, simpler golf tracts out there, but I don't blame any owner or designer for not being the one to develop them. There's room to explore for anyone willing to invest and risk, though given the cost of labor, permitting, land and operations, that lower end is contracting as a share of the overall golf economy.
-
I have to admit that, my personal Trump issues aside, it's pretty impressive that he thought to hire someone like Gil for the job (and that Gil took it!). It'll be very interesting to see how this project turns out and who he hires for future projects. Hell I might even have to break down and actually play one of his tracks someday. Particularly if it's on someone else's dime....
-
Brad,
Part of the problem, which many don't see, is how do you provide affordable public golf when you just purchased a course for
$ 150,000,000 and are about to invest another $ 200,000,000 ?
$ 350,000,000 and affordable public golf are a contradiction in terms.
-
Go play Pompano Beach Muni, where a $4m redo (including Norman's fee) results in a golf course with a green fee of $45-$60. In life you learn to chase what you can afford, or what will take you as a suitor. I agree there need to be more affordable layouts that are $25-$50 as well, but I don't begrudge people who chose not to supply it. Having said that, it doesn't mean that anything goes and that just because you target a high-end you are not subject to standards of judgment and criticism. But they have to be appropriate and relevant standards.
-
Let's also not forget Ferry Point.
There, Donald won't own the course (NYC does), but his management will be the prime determinant of schedule, use and availability to worthy economically-sensitve golfers. My little birdie (very reliable) tells me his people have already made overtures to local Bronx schools and community centers about creating golf programs for disadvantage local youth. IMO, that counts as positively additive to the game. To do this, without arm-bending from the city and before the course opening, signals he's interested in helping grow the game.
Jud,
It's nice to see you approach this with a more balanced and open mind. ;DThe guy's public persona and his contribution to the game are very different.
-
Brad,
I'm surprised that no journalist has challenged Trump on his assertions that his course in West Palm is "#1 in Florida." GD rates it #10. GW does not include in the Top 100 Modern.
Trump did it again on Morning Drive this morning:
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-donald-trump-interview-030813/
-
Steve,
I look at things a bit differently when it comes to Donald Trump. One of them is who he is and where has the same presence that is no different then Don King had for Boxing. They do funny stuff with their hair and make all sorts of outlandish statements to the point of pure comedy; they want you to take them seriously, but they know people are really laughing. These personas achieve themselves fame and fortune, and they love the fact that its all about them and most--their interests of what they're promoting, because simply, its "The Show", "Come inside! Come inside!" (Thank you Peter Sinfield and ELP!)
They're Ringleaders in the Circus: Don King boxing and Donald Trump Real Estate and now golf courses. But the fact is that many of us don't believe in what they are saying, they are still delivering. Somebody is wanting to pay to be a part of it.
-
Tommy,
I know people think he's "promoting the show." Yet, no one has challenged him on the facts face to face on TV or in an interview for publication. He continues to associate his Pine Hill (now Trump Philadelphia) with Pine Valley just because it's nearby. While "we" know that Pine Hill is a good Fazio course, it's nowhere near Pine Valley as a golf course. The general public doesn't know. As a matter of fact, he has done a fine job there with the course, clubhouse, facilities and service and he deserves the success in the resuscitation of this club to the point that there is now a waiting list.
-
Tommy,
I know people think he's "promoting the show." Yet, no one has challenged him on the facts face to face on TV or in an interview for publication. He continues to associate his Pine Hill (now Trump Philadelphia) with Pine Valley just because it's nearby. While "we" know that Pine Hill is a good Fazio course, it's nowhere near Pine Valley as a golf course. The general public doesn't know. As a matter of fact, he has done a fine job there with the course, clubhouse, facilities and service and he deserves the success in the resuscitation of this club to the point that there is now a waiting list.
Steve,
The general public doesn't know how good Pine Valley is..nevermind that the other Pine is distinctly different. Those that do know about PV are not confused at all.
-
Tommy,
I know people think he's "promoting the show." Yet, no one has challenged him on the facts face to face on TV or in an interview for publication. He continues to associate his Pine Hill (now Trump Philadelphia) with Pine Valley just because it's nearby. While "we" know that Pine Hill is a good Fazio course, it's nowhere near Pine Valley as a golf course. The general public doesn't know. As a matter of fact, he has done a fine job there with the course, clubhouse, facilities and service and he deserves the success in the resuscitation of this club to the point that there is now a waiting list.
But challenge him on what grounds?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he doesn't usually get specific. he's not calling Trump LA, "the #1 ranked course in California" because there is no ranking to point at. But he calls it the #1 or the Best course in California ... and he can do that just fine. If there are people out there who think it really must be better than Pebble Beach because of the words that splash across the web site ... well, let's just say that person isn't going to have his mind changed by someone confronting the Donald on Morning Drive.
-
In his Morning Drive interview this morning, Trump said this about Palm Beach International , " it is now rated the number one course in Florida..."
How can any interviewer let this slide?
-
In his Morning Drive interview this morning, Trump said this about Palm Beach International , " it is now rated the number one course in Florida..."
How can any interviewer let thsi slide?
Fair enough. Maybe Trump has a magazine with course ratings.
But overall ... lol at calling golf commentators journalists or expecting them to practice hard-hitting interviews. Hell, it's hard enough to find that in politics these days.
-
Steve,
Morning Drive/Golf Channel are not journalists. They are in the entertainment business. For what it's worth some of us have challenged him in person and in print on these various claims. If you notice, he gets a lot more air time than any one else, and we live in an age when assertion and confidence go a long way towards determining the truth. Besides, I am sure there are some regional ratings lists somewhere he has in mind that he can use to bolster his claims, even if it's not on the basis of a national list.
-
Brad,
As you know, Damon Hack was a journalist for the NYT. Now he is employed by TGC now owned by Comcast which owns NBC which airs Trump's The Apprentice so he is probably under orders not to confront Trump. I'd like to know which publication rates PBI #1.
-
After looking at Doral's website, there's nothing on there claiming it as a highly ranked or rated golf course.
But this is from The Trump International West Palm Beach website:
"it is currently listed by Golf Digest as one of the 50 Best New Golf Clubs built in the United States. The prestigious Florida Golf Magazine rates it “the #1 course in the state of Florida” and it is ranked nationally by GOLF Magazine's "Top 100 in the Country".
-
The "prestigious Florida Golf Magazine" does not RATE golf courses, readers vote:
http://www.floridagolfmagazine.com/FGMwinter2012/FloridasBestGolfCourses2012.html
-
Steve,
Morning Drive/Golf Channel are not journalists. They are in the entertainment business. For what it's worth some of us have challenged him in person and in print on these various claims. If you notice, he gets a lot more air time than any one else, and we live in an age when assertion and confidence go a long way towards determining the truth. Besides, I am sure there are some regional ratings lists somewhere he has in mind that he can use to bolster his claims, even if it's not on the basis of a national list.
Brad,
When he made that statement to me a few years ago I told him that Trump WPB wasn't even in the top 3 in Palm Beach County.
When he asked me which courses were better, I cited Boca Rio which he's played, Seminole and Pine Tree.
Net result ? It didn't matter.
He's a great promoter, one of the greatest of all time, so why let the facts get in the way of consummate promotion.
The guy is fabulous at what he does.
And, he loves golf, so what if he embellishes ? ;D
-
Trump must have paid a lot of people to sit down and vote in Florida Golf Magazine for PBI or comped a lot of people to play there and then vote in this "prestigious" magazine.
-
Gents,
I have been made privy to Gil's drawings for each and every hole at Doral Blue.
Out of respect for copyright and other laws and morals, I will not post them in on a public site. They are exquisite and offer considerable changes (all positive IMO) to all 18 holes. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to IM me.
Cheers,
Steve
-
Steve,
That's great.
Having played Doral since it opened, it will be interesting to see what Gil has in store for the course.
Will Dick Wilson be happy ? ;D
-
Did anyone in the media question Muhammad Ali when he stated that he was the greatest of all time ? ;D
Did anyone question him in person ?
Did it stop him from proclaiming that he was the greatest of all time ?
Love him or hate him, he's got a pretty good track record.
-
Did anyone in the media question Muhammad Ali when he stated that he was the greatest of all time ? ;D
The difference, which is obvious, is that Ali WAS the greatest of all time. Or at the very least was in the conversation. I don't know anyone with an IQ over 70 who would rank Trump's course the best in Florida. It's an asinine statement from a guy who's made a living making asinine statements.
-
Did anyone in the media question Muhammad Ali when he stated that he was the greatest of all time ? ;D
The difference, which is obvious, is that Ali WAS the greatest of all time.
That's debatable
Or at the very least was in the conversation.
I don't know anyone with an IQ over 70 who would rank Trump's course the best in Florida.
I don't think it's got anything to do with IQ. Moreso exposure and experience.
It's an asinine statement from a guy who's made a living making asinine statements.
Dan, for a guy who, according to you, makes assinine statements, he's sure done pretty well for himself, for his many members and golf.
He must be doing more than a few things right
-
I have no problem with Trump putting money into golf, although I've never played a Trump course.
I do hope that his courses are better than his hair...but how can that not be the case?
-
What, if anything, has Mr. Trump done for public golf in the United States?
WW
-
What, if anything, has Mr. Trump done for public golf in the United States?
Wade,
Please reread this thread..
You are aware that Doral is open to the public, aren't you ?
-
Dan, for a guy who, according to you, makes assinine statements, he's sure done pretty well for himself, for his many members and golf.
He must be doing more than a few things right
Not sure what kind of bizarro form of logic you're using to draw that conclusion. Are you saying that because I observed that he makes asinine statements, I would also say that he hasn't done well for himself? Those two things are unrelated. It's not an "If A then B" relationship. Of course he's done well for himself. He's done VERY well for himself, stepping on those beneath him on his way to wealth.
Are YOU saying that he doesn't make asinine statements? Do a quick Google search of "dumb things Donald Trump has said." You'll find websites and Facebook pages dedicated to the diarrhea that spews out of his mouth.
-
What, if anything, has Mr. Trump done for public golf in the United States?
Wade,
Please reread this thread..
You are aware that Doral is open to the public, aren't you ?
Doral costs ~$1400 per foursome.
He's buying and redoing some golf courses and occasionally building others but he isn't growing the game.
WW
-
8) ??? ::)
Do think that Muhammad Ali 's claim to greatness was far more accurate . However we should be inured to Trump's hyperbole by now. Self promotion is his shtick, and we all know it. If you got him alone without the cameras , I would think he might laugh along with you regarding some of his outrageous statements as to the golf courses.
It's pretty hard to argue that he's good for golf anymore. He is! He promotes it constantly, and has saved some wonderful properties from creeping decay. How he is going to profit from it all is another question. Somehow he must have a grand plan, because its not thru the usual consolidation methods of cut, cut ,cut in the quality of product or service . It seems almost unanimous that the golf properties he has touched are top shelf in this regard. In any sales effort , enthusiasm for the product remains a key to success.
-
I hope Gil is putting some slope back in those greens. They're running 13 and Tiger's batting 1.000 inside 10 feet. Of course he's below the hole every time. So much for Shivas' theory...
-
I hope Gil is putting some slope back in those greens.
+1
The greens look somewhat difficult due to variable speed and being baked out and super fast.
Love to see the challenge be due to green undulation and even better some tilt. (so they didn't have to be near dead to create challenge)
-
What, if anything, has Mr. Trump done for public golf in the United States?
Wade,
Please reread this thread..
You are aware that Doral is open to the public, aren't you ?
Doral costs ~$1400 per foursome.
He's buying and redoing some golf courses and occasionally building others but he isn't growing the game.
First of all, That's not his responsibility, but if building new courses isn't growing the game, I don't know what is.
-
Dan, for a guy who, according to you, makes assinine statements, he's sure done pretty well for himself, for his many members and golf.
He must be doing more than a few things right
Not sure what kind of bizarro form of logic you're using to draw that conclusion.
I'm using a form of logic called "net worth" logic.
It's akin to geometric logic
Are you saying that because I observed that he makes asinine statements, I would also say that he hasn't done well for himself?
Just because you deem them asinine statements doesn't mean they're asinine statements to others.
Secondly, he's done incredibly well for himself, in many areas.
Those two things are unrelated. It's not an "If A then B" relationship. Of course he's done well for himself. He's done VERY well for himself, stepping on those beneath him on his way to wealth.
Now that's an asinine statement.
Would you list those he's stepped on ?
Would you also list others of equal net worth who haven't stepped on"those beneath them on their way to wealth" ?
Are YOU saying that he doesn't make asinine statements?
No, he doesn't.
They're all calculated to aid in his promotion of his products.
You may think they're asinine, but they've proven to be highly successful.
So who doesn't get it, you or The Donald ?
Do a quick Google search of "dumb things Donald Trump has said." You'll find websites and Facebook pages dedicated to the diarrhea that spews out of his mouth.
It's obvious that you, and others, don't get it.
Look up the word "shtick"
He's as smart and shrewd as they come.
And, he's got a good sense of humor.
-
Irrespective of Donald's public personality, the Trump portfolio policy of making ALL of his courses and ranges available to local high school golf teams and clubs for practice is most definitely additive to the growth of the game. Please feel free to tell me how I'm wrong, or how such a practice is uniformly followed by all other prominent course owners.
-
Steve:
If Mr. Trump is making his courses available to high school teams, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware of the policy and appreciate you pointing it out.
Does he allow highs schoolers to play and practice at the Bedminster, West Palm Beach, L.A., D.C., Philadelphia, and Miami properties?
WW
-
Trump is a big talker, but unlike most big talkers he also takes big actions. In the current environment investing money in the game is plenty good for golf. So what if his projects aren't to someone-or-other's particular tastes? So what if he likes publicity and adulation? There is great variation in golf courses, golfers and in "golf experiences." If Trump's efforts are not for you, there are lots of other alternatives. The test is whether his projects will be successful over the long term. Seems to me he's off to a good start.
And by the way, what did Bobby Jones do for public golf? It wasn't exactly his main focus either.
-
I heard an interview with Ernie Els today. He said that Donald Trump told him that he would let Els use all of his courses for his autism outing for free. Els estimates that is over a million dollars in savings on site fees. That is a great thing.
-
for the first time in my life I'll say TRUMP is doing more for golf right now than anyone else. Sure Kaiser and Bandon Dunes are great, but that's a pretty select audience of bag carriers, while Trump has projects for all Americans, private and public players. For awhile I worked at a course with a Trump name (Trump International GC at Raffles Resort on Canouan). It definitely is the #1 course in the Grenadines and possibly the southern Caribbean. The course paid an annual licence fee to the Trump, and in return received ....recognition? casino guests? not sure.
DORAL needed TRUMP, he's spending money to save a classic destination golf resort. Hope he can keep the course as good as it can be!
-
Steve:
If Mr. Trump is making his courses available to high school teams, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware of the policy and appreciate you pointing it out.
Does he allow highs schoolers to play and practice at the Bedminster, West Palm Beach, L.A., D.C., Philadelphia, and Miami properties?
WW
Wade,
He does, in fact, allow access at all of those properties you mentioned. Granted, I'm sure they don't get "prime" times, but I know for a fact he permits them play & practice so long as it doesn't conflict with the priority use by his members.
Though any real comparison with many "very exclusive" clubs is fundamentally flawed, I'd at least submit that Trump courses are, on balance, much better neighborhood citizens than such other venues.
-
Steve Lapper,
Why are you using facts to dispel fabrications and myths ?
-
Thanks, Steve, for setting me straight. Good to hear, and I appreciate the illumination.
WW
-
Did anyones opinion of Doral change? Except for maybe Bubba.
-
So how long before the sponsorship fallout buries Trump and his cozy relationships with the governing bodies.
Was only a matter of time.
Hopefully the governing bodies will stop the never ending money grab, come to their senses and do what's good for the game itself-not the organization's pockets.
I'm no fan of PC, but I'm less of a fan of consistent blowhards
-
President Clinton plays at Trump Westchester. Surely he would not were all these things about Mr. Trump true.
-
President Clinton plays at Trump Westchester. Surely he would not were all these things about Mr. Trump true.
I'm reminded, as always, of a favorite Simpsons quote...
Bill Clinton (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0927293/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): I know you don't think you're good enough for me, but believe me, you are. Hell, I done it with pigs. Real, no-foolin' pigs.
--from The Simpsons "Homer to the Max", Season 10, Episode 13
-
President Clinton plays at Trump Westchester. Surely he would not were all these things about Mr. Trump true.
Hilary plays golf?
-
So how long before the sponsorship fallout buries Trump and his cozy relationships with the governing bodies.
Was only a matter of time.
Hopefully the governing bodies will stop the never ending money grab, come to their senses and do what's good for the game itself-not the organization's pockets.
Good related opinion piece by Golf Digest.
http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/07/should-golf-evaluate-its-relat.html (http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/07/should-golf-evaluate-its-relat.html)
A pretty vanilla statement from the golf governing bodies...
"In response to Mr. Trump's comments about the golf industry 'knowing he is right' in regards to his recent statements about Mexican immigrants, we feel compelled to clarify that those remarks do not reflect the views of our organizations. While the LPGA, PGA of America, PGA Tour and USGA do not usually comment on Presidential politics, Mr. Trump's comments are inconsistent with our strong commitment to an inclusive and welcoming environment in the game of golf."
-
I'm not sure why these statements are relevant to this site.
-
I'm not sure why these statements are relevant to this site.
I think a lot of architects who post here, as well as many GCAers ,might be interested in the fate/comments of the governing bodies regarding one of the largest developers in the game.
To say nothing of the effect of immigration (both legal and not) on the maintenance of many/most golf courses in the country.
Now back to the other 6 OT threads ;) [size=78%](and that's considering Golf and skiing on topic)[/size]
-
Jeff,
I hate the OT stuff too. Ran wrote this big thing at the beginning of the year but nothing has changed.
-
So how long before the sponsorship fallout buries Trump and his cozy relationships with the governing bodies.
Was only a matter of time.
Hopefully the governing bodies will stop the never ending money grab, come to their senses and do what's good for the game itself-not the organization's pockets.
I'm no fan of PC, but I'm less of a fan of consistent blowhards
I think the never ending money grab is what drove the joint statements the PGA Tour, USGA and PGA of America put out there.... they can't afford to alienate the companies that support them and their customers... 50 million people of Latino origin in the US, plus all the other minority groups he's thrown under the bus..
Like Jerry Seinfeld and Jeff Warne, I agree the reflexive PC outrage has gone a little too far in this country, but that doesn't cover the things Donald Trump said.. "These people are rapists and murderers.." Not by a long shot.
If you look at all the major things done to weaken this country over the last 30 years, every decision was made by an entitled white douchebag like Donald Trump.. So maybe he's the problem.
If this trade deal Obama just pushed through doesn't work out, I guess we'll have add him to the list..
Meanwhile even Bubba Watson can see which way the wind is blowing:
http://golfdig.st/1HARdv8
-
I seem to recall less fuss made by the tour and others when Allen Stanford's Ponzi scheme cost people $7 billion dollars. "Eagles for St. Jude" went quietly into the night.
If Trump stays in the race its just a matter of time before Cadillac pulls out and the event is moved to another course.
-
Some minor changes in the work at Doral:
http://www.golf.com/players-speak-donald-listens-and-minor-changes-doral (http://www.golf.com/players-speak-donald-listens-and-minor-changes-doral)