Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mark Saltzman on February 23, 2013, 10:41:45 PM
-
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps255921b7.jpg)
I had the great fortune to visit Rivermont County Club last week as the guest of a very generous GCAer. What a wonderful golf course! It is pure fun and shows just what a local private club could be and should be. The bunkering is simple and strategic -- imparting 1/2 shot penalties if found. The greens are varied in shape and size -- the one constant is that every single green is fun. Some have wild internal contours, some rely on tilt, many are angled, and nearly all encourage a running approach.
Some have said that Rivermont is a great local, private club, but not a top-100 type course. Honestly, I say, 'why not'? Every single shot is compelling and thought-provoking. Even after several inches of rain a few days earlier, and sub-freezing temperatures the past few nights, the golf course was in near-perfect condition, allowing for running shots -- the maintenance meld was a perfect fit for the architecture. Aside from Peachtree, I've now played all 'top-100 contenders' in the Atlanta area, and without a second thought I'd return to Rivermont over any of them. So, to those who disagree, why isn't Rivermont a top-100 course? (and I'll spot you the fact that it is a very difficult walk).
It's not surprising that a club owned by a GCAer has attracted so many GCAers as members. Golden Age strategic design is alive and well at Rivermont.
I'm going to post my photo tour 3 holes at a time. Photos will be from the one off the back, white tees (about 6,500 yards). The tips can now stretch to near 7,200 yards.
The opening par-4 is demanding from any set of tees, but is a monster from the back tees (pictured below). From the tee it is clear that this green is best approached from the left, but a stream running down that side of the fairway, combined with the fairway's leftward tilt, make it difficult to play for anywhere but the right side.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsb8931a72.jpg)
Front pins, as pictured, can be approached from anywhere, but accessing the right side of the green is a difficult task.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps34e9bbdb.jpg)
The second is a 530 yard par-5. Is that some reverse-cambre? Why, yes it is! Golfers are asked to play down the left side of the fairway or risk bounding through the fairway on the right. A 3-wood from the tee, especially for those unable to get home in two, is probably the way to play this hole.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps34667e87.jpg)
The right side of the lay-up area is guarded by a bunker that protects the ideal line into the green. Approaches from the left will be blind, blocked-out by bunkers/mounding.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsd7efb962.jpg)
The mound on the left is a very cool feature as it lays 40 yards short of the green. Golfers familiar with the course can use its contours to kick balls onto the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsb6ca3231.jpg)
The contours on the 2nd green are amazing. Depending on the pin and the shot played, the contours can either be used to funnel balls toward the pin, or you will be stuck, frustratingly watching the contours take the ball farther and farther away from the pin.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps03a5f003.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps85b78d6e.jpg)
The 3rd is a mid-length par-4 that, like the 1st and 2nd holes, uses the tilt of the land to add to its strategic interest. Golfers will want to play to the high side of the fairway to leave a preferred angle into an angled green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps0efde3c4.jpg)
A perfectly played tee shot leaves a simple approach to an open green front.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps8a9db2e6.jpg)
As seen from the 4th tee, the contours on the 3rd green are subtler than on the first two greens. The green tilts generally from back-to-front, but a devilish knob on the front left corner and a shelf back-left can make for some difficult recovery shots.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps92950f12.jpg)
-
Spectacular looking, I dig on that brown dormant grass
thank you again, Mark.
cheers
vk
-
That's an impressive looking opener!
-
Rivermont was THE biggest surprise of any course I played in 2012.
It's that good. I want to go back.
-
A Cryptic Haiku
Mark Saltzman, Golfer
A Generous Atlas Guy?
Come On Now, Fess Up!
-
Mark - I've heard the same about Rivermont being a solid local track but no world beater. The many pics I have seen on this and other sites leave me scratching my head at that characterisation - does it just photograph far better than it plays? Because from the pics, one would assume it was top 100 US material - stunning site and really interesting looking holes / shots / greens. Presumably it plays quite firm in the winter too when the grass goes dormant?
To give us a sense for the quality bracket you put it in - can you (or anyone else who has played it) throw out a few course names that you consider are its equal? I keep thinking London Heathland but with wild greens when I see the pics - I'm not sure how many heathland courses you've played but does it have that type of feel?
Can't wait to play it in April!
Hi Brian
Having played Rivermont on several occasions, I can tell you that it plays just as well as it photographs. Having played several healthland courses south of London, yes I would say that many holes on Rivermont have a healthland-like feel.
The redesign of this course is just amazing. It is a track that from the tips and some good rough grow in, would challenge the best. I think the par 3's are among the best this city offers. The first par 3 is as good a redan as you get. But the last par 3 is a really amazing hole. You shoot from the top of a cliff, it is a huge vertical drop. The green looks closer than it is. Everyone always underclubs. Almost everyone I see play that hole is short, including myself, not next time!!
If I lived closer to Rivermont, I would join in a heartbeat. It is a hidden gem and a great deal. Can't wait to go back!
-
It is fun golf, that is for sure!!
-
It is fun golf, that is for sure!!
I haven't played Rivermont, but certainly want to.
The pictures over the years have certainly intrigued me.
Given the architectural wasteland that is Atlanta, it stuns me that it not more well known and appreciated outside this site.
But that's a good thing for prospective members ;) ;D
-
Jeff
I agree that in Atlanta, specifically, it is shocking that this course doesn't get more local love. I think a big part of it is a lack of a connection to Bobby Jones.
-
Mac,
How much of Rivermont flying under the radar can be attributed to people not knowing about the renovation? When I first went to play there, some people that live very close thought that it was not a great course. I had to explain to them that work had been done and it was a different course than they were thinking of. When you play golf in Atlanta, how many people know that Rivermont was greatly improved in the last decade?
-
Mark,
I'm glad you enjoyed the course. We have been pounded with rain lately so I'm glad the course stilled played OK. Here were some summer pics as well from 1-3:
#1 in the summer--similar to Mark's picture:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/1printcopy.jpg)
#1 again:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/1.jpg)
Standing on the back tee on #1. You did hit over practice putting green a bit! Tees are about 445-450 but downhill--hole was designed for a 7-9 iron approach. Tees are 446, 378, 323 and 303 The 378 tee is the one with the trash can/ball washer next to it.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/1Mont.jpg)
Back of #2 Green:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/2Green.jpg)
#3 from the right rough about 80 yards short of the green:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/3shortandright3-2011.jpg)
-
Keith...
I think you are correct.
I also wonder if a lot of golfers don't understand/appreciate strategic design. Rather they are influenced by popular opinion, status quo. For example, would a typical golfer be "wowed" by Seminole if they did go in with prior knowledge of how highly it is regarded. The same can be said for many strategic, but not overly eye-poppingly beautiful golf courses...maybe The Old Course is another example of that concept.
-
It is fun golf, that is for sure!!
I haven't played Rivermont, but certainly want to.
The pictures over the years have certainly intrigued me.
Given the architectural wasteland that is Atlanta, it stuns me that it not more well known and appreciated outside this site.
But that's a good thing for prospective members ;) ;D
Not sure if Atlanta is an architectural wasteland per se, but I will say that as far as knowledge about architecture goes, most golfers here seem to care less.. Many folks here cannot name golf courses outside of their county. Try and conduct a conversation about golf designers or courses around the world, you very quickly loose your audience. If you mention Pine Valley, amazing that over 90% of those I know or have met have no idea about Pine Valley or where it is located. If you bring up "links courses" all you hear is cow pasture. If you bring up Augusta, that they know, that is about it, and that is the measuring stick that many Georgians use in appraising a golf course. Green fairways, fast greens, bring up architiecutre, you might as well be talking about doctorate level calculus. Most could not tell you who Pete Dye or Donald Ross is, or any top name designer and if you mentioned a "Redan" they might think you are talking about some car dealership. My home course is an archtectural gem, many interesting features, don't dare bring it up, they could care less. The nuances and strategic aspects of course design are not even a secondary consideration here, they have no concept. They just want Augusta green and fast putting surfaces.
So it does not surprise me that the word about Rivermont has not spread from an archtiectual standpoint. Very few here are impressed by architecture, t hat is not a chief selling point of golf.. Seldom comes up in the conversation. Those that habitate this group are surely special in that regard, but not an even remote barometer as to what charcterizes the average golfer in this market.
-
flags in the winter, baskets in the summer?
-
Mark - I've heard the same about Rivermont being a solid local track but no world beater. The many pics I have seen on this and other sites leave me scratching my head at that characterisation - does it just photograph far better than it plays? Because from the pics, one would assume it was top 100 US material - stunning site and really interesting looking holes / shots / greens. Presumably it plays quite firm in the winter too when the grass goes dormant?
To give us a sense for the quality bracket you put it in - can you (or anyone else who has played it) throw out a few course names that you consider are its equal? I keep thinking London Heathland but with wild greens when I see the pics - I'm not sure how many heathland courses you've played but does it have that type of feel?
Can't wait to play it in April!
Brian,
I visited Atlanta in what must have been the second worst week of the winter. The week before there was something like 3 inches of rain, and then when I was there I got to play in wind chills that were in the low 30s. Still, the fairways did have some bounce to them. Around the greens running shots were a definite option.
I've played a few heathland courses. The greens at Rivermont are certainly wilder and the terrain more extreme than on the heathland courses I've played.
I'd put Rivermont in the same category as courses like Concession, Black Diamond, and Promontory (Dye).
I just keep trying to figure out where Rivermont falls short of being a top-100 course. Literally shot after shot after shot is interesting. A couple of potential knocks: (1) the back-nine has some long/awkward transitions and the transition from 9-10 is very long, making walking a bit of a challenge; (2) housing around the course, though never narrowing corridors or intruding on lines of play; (3) extreme greens are not for everyone, but imo part of what makes the course so darned fun and interesting; (4) the course does not hit the visual highs that some top-100 courses have, even if the holes are as, if not more, interesting and strategic.
-
.
-
Mark,
Which current top 100 course would you remove to make room for Rivermont?
You have seen the rating criteria for GD and GW, do you think Rivermont would be favored by one of the criteria?
-
Mark,
Which current top 100 course would you remove to make room for Rivermont?
You have seen the rating criteria for GD and GW, do you think Rivermont would be favored by one of the criteria?
Keith,
No need to name names here! Let's just say that I would return to it over 3 courses currently in the top-50 GW modern.
Hmmm I hadn't thought about which magazine criteria would favor Rivermont. But now that I have, Golfweek.
-
Mark and Mac
Does Rivermont make an effort to court raters from any magazine?
Has it had enough raters come through to qualify for rankings?
Now a rant: if a long transition is cause to degrade a course, then the ranking is fraudulent. We're not speaking of miles across land-mined territory (or even Brer' Rabbit's briar patch,) but a bit of a walk up a path. I do understand the other points, although they are a bit frustrating as well.
-
Mark and Mac
Does Rivermont make an effort to court raters from any magazine?
Don't know, I played as the guest of a member.
Has it had enough raters come through to qualify for rankings?
Again, not sure, but I don't think so.
Now a rant: if a long transition is cause to degrade a course, then the ranking is fraudulent. We're not speaking of miles across land-mined territory (or even Brer' Rabbit's briar patch,) but a bit of a walk up a path. I do understand the other points, although they are a bit frustrating as well.
-
Ron,
Have you played Rivermont? Was this another round with Mac?
-
Hey, Keith.
I have not played it. I know that Mac is a member so I directed my inquiry to him as a member and to Mark as a guy I respect (from personal experience) for his ability to "get" a course in one playing.
-
Ron,
I thought you were defending the walk from 9 to 10, so I figured you played it. Mac has been very generous in the past, so I figured that was the connection. I am sure if you make it to Atlanta and play Rivermont, you will love it, it is a great course with an excellent set of greens. Chris knows exactly what is important at a Golf Club.
-
Hey, Keith.
I believe my pal Kevin played it with Mac. I was indeed addressing the walk from 9 to 10, any walk for that matter, as being completely unrelated to the worth of the course. Mark mentioned it (among others) as awkward transitions and potential demerits in a hypothetical ranking. To quote the philosopher Peter Griffin, that really grinds my gears. A walk from green to tee has nothing to do with the golf course.
-
Mark and Mac
Does Rivermont make an effort to court raters from any magazine?
Has it had enough raters come through to qualify for rankings?
Now a rant: if a long transition is cause to degrade a course, then the ranking is fraudulent. We're not speaking of miles across land-mined territory (or even Brer' Rabbit's briar patch,) but a bit of a walk up a path. I do understand the other points, although they are a bit frustrating as well.
Hey Ron,
I'd venture a guess that any courting of raters done by Rivermont is me having friends come play with me, as a lot of my friends are raters. I don't think Kevin is a rater, but he might be (I can't remember)...however it is situations like that (a GCAer friend in town) that most likely yields the bulk\entirety of rater courting that goes on at The 'Mont. Which is probably best...
Have there been enough raters come through? Most likely, no. But that is fine.
Regarding long walks affecting ratings...i'd say it should impact any routing scores, if that is a criteria. Regarding the quality of the individual holes and shots, Rivermont should score very highly on those criteria. It all comes down to what each individual values and enjoys on a course to determine where it would rank.
-
The fourth hole is one of the most changed holes on the course (from what I can tell, based on aerials). Mike Riley and Chris Cupit completely changed the orientation of the green and the bunker scheme to create one of the best functioning redans I've ever played.
Before:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/ScreenShot2013-02-24atSundayFebruary24201393025PM_zpsead276bf.png)
After:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/ScreenShot2013-02-24atSundayFebruary24201393105PM_zps1266cb16.png)
A series of Mike Riley's sketches hang in the clubhouse. They are awesome and anyone with even a mild interest in GCA will love looking through them:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpse0ab7d0e.jpg)
As mentioned, the 180 yard fourth is a well-functioning redan. Shots landing anywhere on the right side of the green will funnel left, while low/drawing shots will catch the full effect of the contours and run all the way down to the back-left portion of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsad245868.jpg)
The front-left bunker is fearsome, but as is the case with most redans, not a terrible miss as recoveries from there play into the slope of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps82bfba81.jpg)
The green as seen from front-right. Hard to capture the tilt of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsefe87867.jpg)
The 5th is another very changed hole, as the green was moved some 100 yards from short-left of the creek to beyond and right of it.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps7c00fd75.jpg)
The 410 yard 5th is really strategic design at its best. A carry bunker sits on the right side of the fairway, and which needs to be challenged to leave a reasonable approach into this angled and tilted green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps71dd68e3.jpg)
My host once told me that he would rather play from the fairway bunker on the right than approach a back pin from the centre of the fairway. Obviously, this statement was questioned and really not understood. Now that I have played the hole, I fully agree. Approaching from the centre of the fairway is a very difficult task as the green runs away from this angle.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsb2cca1f0.jpg)
Approaching from the right side of the fairway is a more manageable task.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps00eaa448.jpg)
Two rolls in the green help to shed approaches from the left away from the putting surface. Another great green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpse4f346fc.jpg)
When I first saw a picture of the 160 yard par-3 6th, it reminded me of the 8th at Sebonack in that the pond did not fit well with the rest of the golf course. Like the 8th at Sebonack, this hole has a WILD green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpseee588db.jpg)
As seen from the front-right corner of the green, shots near the left perimeter of the green will funnel off of the green and a small backboard can be used to access front pin positions.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps5ab630da.jpg)
The real excitement is found past the green's mid-point. A ridge runs across the green's centre, and forms half of a deep half-pipe in the back portion of the green. Back-right is a green hole in one pin position. Too bad I found it when the pin was in the front.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps8315d049.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsad86abcb.jpg)
-
Also, anyone that takes the time to look at Mike Riley's sketch of the 5th, note the comment next to 'mature tree' -- rifw.
I don't know what it stands for, but I'd say 'right in the f***ing way'! And for those that bailout from the tee.. it is!
-
I want to ask, how did those XXX (for mature) trees affect the old green site? I cannot envision where it might have been, relative to their position.
-
I had the pleasure of playing at Rivermont with Mac in early December. It is a delightful course, and it did remind me of some UK courses along the way, although I was thinking more of one of the pine forest courses such as Woburn or perhaps the Edinburgh at Wentworth rather than the real heavy duty heathland courses like Sunningdale or Hankley Common.
-
I want to ask, how did those XXX (for mature) trees affect the old green site? I cannot envision where it might have been, relative to their position.
Ron, I believe the old 5th green was right where that bunker on the left is. It was a short hole -- maybe 360 yards -- and the green was short of the trees.
-
Great to see the discussion about this great "hidden" gem. I can't wait to see the pics of 13 green -- one of my favorite greens (and holes) on the course.
Words can't do justice to the quality of this course and the generosity of the members and Chris.
Rob
-
Next Q: If you play a ball short right of the Redan green, will it bound up and on? It looks like the only feed comes from the green, to my clothed eye.
-
Rivermont is definitely one of the most fun courses I have played. I had the pleasure of playing it with Mac, and again a few days later with Chris Cupit and Mike Riley (and, no, not a rater).
There are just so many things to enjoy about this course. It is a great for hickory, usually playing firm & fast. I love the number of tee shots that demand you consider the rollout, which will also tie into your ideal approach angle. Also a great variety of holes and challenges. I can think of 2 top 50 courses I've played that possessed a homogeneity of tee shots which led the holes to blend together.
The putting surfaces are bold and wonderful, with so many fun "six pack greens." (A 6PG is one you could spend hours on with just a 6 pack and a putter). Several times during my rounds I would finish a hole and say "wait, I want to try something here."
I think what makes Rivermont special is the level of attention it received from Chris Cupit & Mike Riley. It seems like Chris has dedicated himself to perfecting this course like Ross did at Pinehurst. I asked Chris how long he had been scribbling notes for improvements to the course. I think his response was "since I was 14" (may have the exact age wrong). Listening to Mike & Chris argue over who should get credit for the 9th green was great fun ("I told you it wasn't too much.")
I'll add more as the holes get posted, but it is definitely worth a visit if you're in the region (or even a special trip).
-
Chris,
What purpose do the left bunkers serve on the 5th hole. It would seem all they would do is save a poorly executed tee shot from a worse fate.
Why not just let the balls run out and get stymied by the tree?
I have never seen the hole in person but they would seem to be nothing more than framing and/or savior bunkers.
-
This looks really very impressive. I agree generally with an earlier poster as it also kinda reminds me of UK pine-forest courses. Really good photos and the sketches are superb. I very much like the look of the Redan style par-3 4th hole and look forward to viewing some more of the holes. Curious about the use of both flags and wicker baskets. Not very keen on the cart-paths though, but needs-must I guess.
I'm not particularly familiar with grass types in the US other than that some types go dormant and change colour significantly at certain times of the year. Therefore I'd be obliged if someone could please explain what the various grasses are that look so light brown and then such a rich green and at what time of year does this happen and is it universal across the US or just in some areas?
In addition, to what extent do architects use the different glass types/colours to highlight or lessen features on a course by trying to out-fox the player from the strategy/playing approach aspect of a hole (eg hiding dog-legs, us of dead ground etc).
All the best.
-
Thomas,
The greens are bent and the rest bermuda. The one unfortunate feature of this mix (which is common in the southeast) is that the greens are at their best in the late fall and winter (while the bermuda is brown-although it can still play very well if it does not rain too much).
All,
Having played Rivermont dozens of times I can say that there are only a handful of courses that I have ever played that I might choose over Rivermont as a "regular" course. I can see how it may be disappointing as a destination course (i.e. it does not look spectacular or have perfect surrounds). What is amazing is that the drainage is bad and the routing is very restricted due to housing, AND YET the architecture and finish work (especially the greens and bunkers) provide endless interest. I cannot tell you how excited I am every time I return.
The real question is, if such a terrific course can be built and maintained (lots of credit to Mr. Cupit here) on a sub-par site with serious routing restrictions, why isn't the world populated with fun interesting courses?
-
Also, anyone that takes the time to look at Mike Riley's sketch of the 5th, note the comment next to 'mature tree' -- rifw.
I don't know what it stands for, but I'd say 'right in the f***ing way'! And for those that bailout from the tee.. it is!
Yep--pretty good guess. Though in fairness to Mike, that was my idea--he is far too much of a gentleman to think of that himself and would have never put that in without my prodding :D
-
Next Q: If you play a ball short right of the Redan green, will it bound up and on? It looks like the only feed comes from the green, to my clothed eye.
Ron,
Mark was right re: the old green on hole #5. The left fairway bunkers are located where two front greenside bunkers used to be. The old hole was about 350 yards and was a slight dogleg left. Pretty much a nothing hole--drive and pitch to a two tiered green surrounded by four bunkers--two in front and two in back. The trees played absolutely no role in the old hole.
The new hole crosses a creek that was never involved in the old hole and added about 90-100 yards to the hole.
The redan plays well and if a player tries a running shot or drawing shot that lands short it will normally bound up. The drawing shows a small plateau extending about 10-12 yards from the front right and there is a small knob about 3 yards short that i there to screw with you :D
Now when the hole is located on the front right I think it is a tougher shot. Some players may be able to hit a iron like a 7 iron into the green. With a higher trajectory shots landing just short of the green will not bounce up and leave a tricky chip to a green falling away.
-
Chris,
What purpose do the left bunkers serve on the 5th hole. It would seem all they would do is save a poorly executed tee shot from a worse fate.
Why not just let the balls run out and get stymied by the tree?
I have never seen the hole in person but they would seem to be nothing more than framing and/or savior bunkers.
Great question :D
This hole changed the most of any on the course and I think is a great example of width in golf. One thing that can't be seen very well is that the creek that crosses in front of the green continues as a hazard all along the right side of the hole and driving zone. Also, if you carry the right bunker (270) from the tips slightly downhill, and go just a little right you have a series of humps and bumps (existed before the renovation) that can give you a squirley lie. It is a better angle but tougher lie.
The two left fairway bunkers are meant to deceive a golfer. This fairway is some 70 yards wide. I believe that the best way to "trick" a better player is to not frame or define small targets for them. (The 13th hole is another example but that is another story).
By providing a huge fairway I hope to give the regular player plenty of room on a tough hole and I hope to lull the better player to sleep. They see all kinds of room and may just end up "playing safe" to the distant bunkers on the left that look lie a good place to hit it. Both bunklers are about 300 yards from the tee so it is hard to reach them which is another reason a better player may just hit it over there. Anything at those bunkers or left (where there is still more room) is blocked out (a little) by the large hardwood tree (the r.i.t.f.w) one :D A player would have to try and hit it over (very difficult) or play a substantial draw to get around the branches. Also, the green contour has two very large internal mounds on the inside left of the green that make the approach from the left difficult.
This is a 9400 sq. foot green described as a "potato chip" by Mike. First third influenced by the two internal mounds pushing everything right and short. The middle section that carries the humps is pretty level and then the back portion has a back right shelf and a back left area that turns back to the left. A back left hole location can allow a player who carries the ball deep into the green to actually feed a ball back and left to the hole.
I'll post a few pictures that may show some of the roll of the greens even better.
So, the left bunkers are really meant to catch the better players' eye as the last thing he glances at as he subconsciously tries to avoid the hazard and bunker on the more aggressive right side play. Also, by giving such a wide target a (right handed) golfer that overswings on a long hole may pull his shot to the left and again find himself in the worst spot to approach the hole from.
The last thought is that Mike and I really tried to avoid the type of hole where the "correct line" is obvious. We prefer to let the player decide what may be best for them. So on #5 while I may think the ideal line is to play just slightly over the left hand side of the right bunker some players who don't want to risk the bunker or the uneven lie on the right or the right hazard may prefer the safety of the wide bail out left even if it means having to play a great shot over, around or maybe under the tree on the approach shot. Also, the hole location may dictate how much risk one needs to really take off the tee. With a front right hole for example, a three wood safely left may be the play.
Hope this explains a little what we were thinking :D
Oh--I think someone asked about the grasses:
Tees are diamond zoysia, Fairways are 419 Bermuda and Greens are a blend of A-1 and A-4 bent. Broomsedge, Indian grass, little blue fescue, foxtail, spartina, tall fescues, assorted hard and chewing fescues, scotch broom, switch grass, lovegrasses, native azaelas all over the rest of the course.
-
Another view of #4:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/G7LS6354f49.jpg)
From the left side of #5
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/5.jpg)
A couple of pictures from behind #6 green
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/6-1.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole6green.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole6panagreen.jpg)
With the hole front right, here is the shot is you are short/right:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole6Aug2011.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole6BAug2011.jpg)
Short left also has some neat movement:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole6CAug2011.jpg)
-
Chris, thank you for the great commentary, I hope you'll continue to follow along!
-
The 7th is a 500 yard uphill par-5 where the golfer that plays near the creek that runs down the left will gain a significant advantage. Fortunately, the right to left tilt of the land assists those that bailout to the right from the tee.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps88000958.jpg)
A creek runs diagonally across the fairway near the 150 yard marker. Golfers that mis-hit their tee shot will have to negotiate a lay-up, while those that played their tee shots to the right side of the fairway are left with the longer forced carry.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps980aab53.jpg)
The green tlits significantly from back-to-front and this small carve out at the back-left portion of the green makes for a great Sunday pin position. How much tilt is there? Let's just say that both of my playing companions putted it from above the pin to 15 feet off the front of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps8a309eb2.jpg)
The par-4 8th offers split tees. The first picture is from the newly-added 490 yard tee where a cool top-shot bunker gives a line from the tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps4dad7b12.jpg)
From the members tees, the hole plays a more manageable 400 yards. The tee shot is played downhill to a fairway that falls away to the right, before ascending to another wonderful green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsa4cf714a.jpg)
A false-front awaits, ready to catch shots landing on the front portion of the green, and a swale on the right side of the green collects many well struck shots to the green's right perimeter.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsbe09a01e.jpg)
Like the 8th, the 360 yard 9th is a down and up par-4. Golfers must choose whether to lay-back to the width of the fairway short of the fairway bunkers, or play to the narrow, inclined part of the fairway around the 100 yard marker.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsed59cb50.jpg)
The longer the tee shot, the better the view of the green. An alps-like feature anyone?
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps7d81fb18.jpg)
And upon cresting the hill, the golfer gets his first view of the punchbowl green. An alps-punchbowl combo, now where have I seen that before?
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps7bfbb0fd.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsd0b3293a.jpg)
-
The real question is, if such a terrific course can be built and maintained (lots of credit to Mr. Cupit here) on a sub-par site with serious routing restrictions, why isn't the world populated with fun interesting courses?
Never having been there, my immediate question after seeing the photos was how sub-par is the site? The land itself looks real interesting. Rolling topography, a creek that meanders here and there, a cool-looking redan site.
Chris obviously is doing a great job on the course -- and likely could improve many courses in a similar way, given the opportunity. That's probably the answer to your question.
-
Mark,
Did you play the basement tee on #8? At 490 yards, clearly that tee is meant only for the elite, but I honestly can't fathom a more nightmarish tee shot in all of golf. Uphill & blind to a fairway that slopes away from you to a hazard along the entire right side of the hole. In firm conditions, I envision that only a strong draw has any hope of staying in play. Even playing the favorable angle from the upper tees, I saw reasonable drives come dangerously close to the right trouble.
While I generally enjoyed the fairway tilts, I think some were flirting with being too punitive in very firm conditions, especially when they headed toward penalty stroke areas. In particular, the tilts on #8, 12, and 15 significantly narrowed the effective width of those fairways. However, having only played twice, my recollection of those landing areas may be foggy.
Perhaps the intent was to be very demanding off the tee, as this course will significantly reward golfers who can bend their driver both ways into the slopes. That intent probably fits in very well with the general shot-making / thinking theme of the course. However, I could envision someone with a loose driver (especially a slicer) having a long day.
In terms of why Rivermont may not be considered Top-100, I imagine the bold contouring, on both fairways & greens, to be a polarizing factor that may hurt its overall average score.
-
Kevin, I didn't play the 'basement' tee on 8. Mac took me over to take a look at it, and man is that intimidating. It is a very cool angle from down there, and I think the hole may play as an interesting par-5 for a pea-shooter like me from down there... except that I can't reach the fairway over the bunker!! I checked on Google Earth and it is a 250 yard, uphill carry to reach the fairway on a line over the bunker (230 just to clear the bunker).
Yes, you're right the fairway tilts pretty significantly there. From the 'up' tees its not so bad.. you have to play to the left side of the fairway, or hit a draw. But from the lower tees you MUST hit a draw.
There is a lot of reverse-cambre at Rivermont. Holes 2, 3, 8, 12 all have this feature. It does increase the demand from the tee, but it does this subtly.
Below is an overhead image of the 8th. The arrows show the tilt of the fairway and it is clear the from the lower tees, a right to left shot is a must!
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/ScreenShot2013-02-27atWednesdayFebruary27201373025PM_zpsbf1f3ddd.png)
-
Looking back at some of the other Rivermont threads, here is a little bit of Club history from Chris Cupit.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35566.msg720502.html#msg720502 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35566.msg720502.html#msg720502)
Chris,
I know how busy you always are running the club, but it would be fascinating to hear some of your thoughts behind the hole re-designs as Mark goes through them. Looking at the HistoricAerials and Google Earth imagery, the revisions are pretty drastic in a number of cases. I've always been fascinated by course evolutions, and this one would be a great case study.
Mark already pointed out and you discussed the changes on #4 and 5. I was curious about a few others:
- Was the shift of the green on #1 (to the right) driven by a desire to change the approach on #1, or more to accommodate a new left tee on #2 (creating a more challenging drive)?
- The old 7th green was very interesting in shape, with some small pin areas. Was that a love/hate hole among the members?
- Was the old 11th ever driveable? Without that potential, was it simply a lay-up, wedge hole for everyone?
Thanks for your insight.
-
I want to agree with those above who think that Rivermont is a hidden gem. I played it last year with another GCA poster who is a member. Like many Atlanta area courses it is a challenging walk, but it has fine architectural merit. The point about the quality of the Par 3's is right on. The 4th is a fine redan style hole, 14 helps transition the player to higher land and 17 transitions you back down to the stream bottom and returns the player to the club house. The par 4's and 5's are very solid with holes early in each 9 that employ a stream as part of the strategy. Overall the greens have considerable movement. There is a short par 4 on the back, 13 I believe, that plays uphill to green perched on a high shelf. The green has a swale and enormous slope on its back half It's rather square shaped and looks like a throwback to the golden era of architecture. Another, my favorite, is the 5th hole, a long right curving par 4 along the river bottom land that forms the first section of each nine. The drive needs to be fimly struck to access the green which has some turtle back qualities incorporated in its surface. Deception is a factor in the approach because large trees in the vicinity of the green appear to be in play where actually they are more of an aesthetic feature. The stream is a factor on the drive for a long hitter. Visually striking and a good challenge.
If you are in the Atlanta area Rivermont is worth a visit. I am looking forward to playing it again.
-
Looking back at some of the other Rivermont threads, here is a little bit of Club history from Chris Cupit.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35566.msg720502.html#msg720502 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35566.msg720502.html#msg720502)
Chris,
I know how busy you always are running the club, but it would be fascinating to hear some of your thoughts behind the hole re-designs as Mark goes through them. Looking at the HistoricAerials and Google Earth imagery, the revisions are pretty drastic in a number of cases. I've always been fascinated by course evolutions, and this one would be a great case study.
Mark already pointed out and you discussed the changes on #4 and 5. I was curious about a few others:
- Was the shift of the green on #1 (to the right) driven by a desire to change the approach on #1, or more to accommodate a new left tee on #2 (creating a more challenging drive)?
- The old 7th green was very interesting in shape, with some small pin areas. Was that a love/hate hole among the members?
- Was the old 11th ever driveable? Without that potential, was it simply a lay-up, wedge hole for everyone?
Thanks for your insight.
Month end but I will jump in soon--I love talking about the course!! ;D
-
The real question is, if such a terrific course can be built and maintained (lots of credit to Mr. Cupit here) on a sub-par site with serious routing restrictions, why isn't the world populated with fun interesting courses?
Never having been there, my immediate question after seeing the photos was how sub-par is the site? The land itself looks real interesting. Rolling topography, a creek that meanders here and there, a cool-looking redan site.
Chris obviously is doing a great job on the course -- and likely could improve many courses in a similar way, given the opportunity. That's probably the answer to your question.
Jim,
The meandering creek is used very well, but causes significant drainage issues (which is common here with the clay in the soil). Also, the land is rolling, but severe in places (15, 16, 17 and a few other holes clearly presented huge challenges to the architects). Also, tied to all of this is the fact that the housing really restricts the architect (as does the road running along 15 and 16).
I do not mean that it is a terrible site. I jsut mean that there were/are significant cons . . . BUT THE COURSE IS OUTSTANDING!!! I highly recommend visitng if you have any interest.
-
Man, Rivermont looks outstanding! I am so bummed I spent my time and money at one of the famous ATL neighbors rather than here. My wife's family lives in ATL, so next time we're down I know where to look.
Can't wait to see the rest of the tour. Thanks Mark.
-
After a lengthy transition from the 9th green to the clubhouse, the back-nine starts with one of my favorite holes on the course. The 10th hole is is a 500 yard double dogleg (almost triple dogleg) par-5, that first moves right, then left, and then right again at the green. While the tee shot has a constrained feeling with trees on both sides, there is more room than there appears and golfers hoping to reach the green in two shots must challenge a single bunker on the inside of the dogleg.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps79774543.jpg)
The second for most will be a lay-up but it is one that grabs your attention. The golfer must play near a lone left-side fairway bunker or he will face a difficult wedge shot approach over a bunker from the right.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps23ab074e.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps1547a029.jpg)
The 11th is a very tempting short par-4 that plays to just over 270 yards from the members tees. At that yardage (remember, only 255 or so to the front edge) and without the overt water hazards that front so many short par-4s, many golfers will have a go at this green, probably finding one of the short bunkers and walking off with 5.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps844f1f71.jpg)
A lay-up away from the stream/bunker on the right leaves an approach that demands precision as the green lay at an angle from here.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsbc26210e.jpg)
The 11th green as seen from the 12th tee, shows the subtle but present internal contouring. For reference, the old 11th green (I believe) was somewhere amongst the bunkering shown below.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsd0ead01b.jpg)
Another really good par-5 at the 12th. The day I played it, the members tees were up one set, making this a very reachable par-5, but the normal tee shot is back and left of the location pictured and from there it is clear that the reverse-cambre will wreak havoc on those unable to draw their tee shot.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps3d856ca3.jpg)
The second shot as seen from around the 200-yard marker. The Big Bertha bunker on the left reminds me of the similarly named bunker short of the 8th green at The Honors in Tennessee, and the golfer will do everything in his power to avoid it (which includes pushing his second shot well to the right and onto the 10th fairway).
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps769ab45c.jpg)
Pictures of this green are almost a waste of time. The back portion of the green is as severely tilted as anything I've ever seen. I had a 10 foot downhill putt from above the hole, which after the first time hitting it 15 feet by the hole, I then tried putting it backwards and even then it went a couple feet beyond the hole. Equal parts fun and frustrating! Next time I won't be above the hole.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps8d4cd7b1.jpg)
-
Mark,
This post with the splendid photos just get's better and better. Keep them coming.
All the best.
-
Amazing to see the similarity between the 5th hole at Atlanta CC and the 5th hole at Rivermont CC. I know Mike Riley was involved in redesigning the green complexes at ACC, but don't know if he changed anything else. The 5th at ACC was my favorite hole on the course, so maybe he used it as inspiration for Rivermont? The 5th is a mid-length par-4 with bunkering guarding the ideal line of the inside of the dogleg and a bunker through the fairway on the left.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Atlanta%20CC/file_zps9f3988a9.jpg)
Playing away from the carry bunkers on the right leaves a very difficult approach to an angled green with a tree rifw.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Atlanta%20CC/file_zpsa9bf8062.jpg)
-
Mark,
What strikes me about holes 6-13 at Rivermont is the quality of the green complexes. I think they are all tremendous. I also think there is great variety. What are your thoughts on that collection of greens?
And yes, when they are running at top speeds the front of 7 and several putts/chips on 9 and 12 are truly frightening.
-
Just a quick FYI, it is Mike Riley.
-
Just a quick FYI, it is Mike Riley.
Oops. Thanks, Mac!
Don't know why I said Chris. I'll change it.
-
Ask Mike Cupit why you said it...
-
12 is one of the most interesting holes IMO. As Mark has said, the green is very challenging...but due to the interest of the hole tee to green a lot of people overlook/don't remember the green's challenges.
An example of the tee to green interest, is the tee shot. You can see from the picture that the fairway tilts severely left to right. What you don't see is that over the ridge on the right side of the fairway is a hollow that has a small creek running at its bottom. If you go over that ridge, I'd say you've got a 25% of being wet, 25% chance of being fine, and 50% chance of an awkward lie and a punchout/lay up type of shot.
However, here is the kicker. If you can't reach this perched green in two, why are you hitting driver on this hole? I am the only one I've ever seen hit anything less than driver on this hole, but I constantly see people looking for balls over that ridge and or in the trees left. And I can't recall but a handful of players getting to that green in two.
What is cool is that I hit 3 hybrid off that tee up the left side of the fairway. You can see a ridge in the fairway at that point. With the firm and fast turf and with that slope, that ball will roll out to that bunker on the right side of the fairway...which is where most good drives end up. IMO this reduces risk and doesn't cost you very much in terms of par probability.
Of course, this is how i've figured I can best play this hole for my game. Others may want to experiment with other methods. And that is what is fun at Rivermont, options and choices. Mark B., calls the types of decisions and options "equifinality.". I agree and find this type of golf to be the most fun.
-
The 13th is a short par-4. The golfer is asked to challenge the bunker guarding the high side of the fairway. From there the golfer has the best view of the green and his approach will be played from the only flat area on the fairway.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps154ba5c7.jpg)
Probably the largest false-front I have ever seen. A ridge cuts across the green half-way back and anything landing short of this ridge will funnel back off of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps99c8ea49.jpg)
Depending on pin position, this hole may be a breather. But, with a green that has small ledges on the left and back portions of the green, bogey is a real possibility.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsd23ad8d5.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsedc90bdd.jpg)
The 400 yard 15th is a very cool and very demanding golf hole. An intimidating view from the tee, as the drive is blind played over a top-shot bunker that is 150 yards to carry.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps39d1be9d.jpg)
Once in the fairway the golfer is asked to play a running shot from the right, using the ground's contours to bring the ball onto the putting surface.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpse24fa4c8.jpg)
With MacRaynor inspired straight lines and sharp drop-offs, missing left of the greensite is a terrible mistake.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsabeeaf7a.jpg)
The extreme back-left portion of the green is mowed all the way up and into the ridge around the green. Only at Tillinghast's Quaker Ridge have I seen this. The green generally slopes from right-to-left, but there is counterslope on the left portion of the green to protect shots coming from the right from running all the way though the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps50f7de32.jpg)
-
This course improves on an excellent start with each successive trilogy.
-
Just played today.
On 12, all three of my playing partners hit driver. 2 down the hill/gully right, 1 in the fairway. I hit 3 hybrid off the tee. I made par...no one else did. How often do people NOT hit driver off the tee on a par 5? Heck...make that a par 4 as well?
On that point, on the "drivable" par 4 11th...all playing partners hit driver. One just missed the green right. Great drive! He made birdie. The others put their drives in the rough on the left and made bogeys/doubles. I hit 5 iron, wedge, putt, putt...par.
These type of instances have helped cement my thinking that most players will never get strategic architecture as they never think before they hit...therefore, strategy is lost on them. Am I off base?
-
The 16th hole is one of the very best on the golf course and uses the lay of the land and strategic bunkering to maximum effect.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps8bef7e1d.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps23bef7d0.jpg)
Golfers will do well to avoid a single well-placed bunker on the left to leave an approach to a green protected by a steep fall-off left and bunkering to the right.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpse1034670.jpg)
Note the right-to-left tilt of the land, as seen from behind the 16th green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps4937931f.jpg)
A dangerous drop-shot par-3 with a massive green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps19f04524.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps317bc87a.jpg)
The hole played 195 yards on the day I played, and I was warned that long is the only terrible miss!
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpse0bc3d04.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps66cf1e01.jpg)
The 18th tee shot is one of the least dramatic on the golf course, where a tee shot played toward the fairway bunkers will leave a clear look at an open green front. A slope short-right of the green can be used to funnel balls onto the green, but hit its outside and the ball will kick well away to the right of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsdf2bdb53.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zpsa8949eb0.jpg)
-
Grew up in the metro Atlanta area (80's and 90's) not far from Rivermont. Miss the tall pines for sure. Have to say, having played the 'old' Rivermont several times way back when, great to see it in these pics--looks great and lots of fun! (and nothing how I remember it!)
-
Mark,
What strikes me about holes 6-13 at Rivermont is the quality of the green complexes. I think they are all tremendous. I also think there is great variety. What are your thoughts on that collection of greens?
And yes, when they are running at top speeds the front of 7 and several putts/chips on 9 and 12 are truly frightening.
No doubt the green complexes are striking at Rivermont. Again, I attribute that to the passionate hands-on approach by Chris & Mike. Listening to both of them describe what they were thinking on various greens was a privilege. None of these were greens were built on paper - you could sense the thought put into each slope / counterslope. Even on the most benign-looking greens, there was so much going on (17 is on that sticks out to me).
Put 4 different golfers 20 yards short of these greens and you'll probably hear four different strategies on how to get close.
-
Mark,
Well done. Super descriptions and really splendid photos.
All the best.
-
The 16th hole
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rivermont/file_zps23bef7d0.jpg)
16 was my favorite hole on the course. Such a great look to it.
-
Sorry I was so busy and couldn't comment earlier. But, I'm back :D
Hole seven is a tough hole and plays slightly uphill at 570 from the tips and 530 or so from the "regular" men's tees. A creek runs all down the left of the hole and also crosses the fairway at around the 400 yard mark on a bias. If you miss the fairway or miss the drive it is tough to carry this crossing hazard. The drive is tight--maybe the tightest on the course but we have gone and essentlially removed about ten feet of trees along the right side with a little more cutting to go.
The course, while routed among houses, really has very little OB in play. Creeks are the primary hazard (holes 1-14 all have a creek or pond in play at least a little).
#7 green is shaped like a "milk jug" when viewed from overhead and after the first few holes the green looks perfectly flat--until you putt right off the front of it!
Here is #7 from right at the creek crossing:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/7a.jpg)
-
#8 is an absolute ball buster though 98% of all rounds are not played from the tips. The regualr tees and the "player's tees" both use the old forward tee of about 410 yards.
A few years ago two new back tees were put in--we have hosted about 8 Match Play Championships for our state golf association (the last eight actually) as well as about twenty USGA qualifiers and we wanted this hole to play as a long iron or wood apporach for better players--like it does for others. The greenside front bunker was removed encouraging a running shot and the horseshoe shaped green (a sideways horseshoe) may be my favorite on the course.
From the tips the back tee used almostly exclusively in tournament play is 460 yards. The carry in actual yards from the very back of this tee is 219 yards which plays 232 (according to my slope/distance meter). From this tee many competitors actually hit three woods as they can draw the ball easier though a perfectly straight shot is fine as long as it is not pushed right of the fairway bunker.
hybrids to even 6 irons are played from this tee. An aggresive line just inside the bunker or drawing will land either on a downslope gathering more distance or in a fairway that opens up to nearly forty yards accross. At it narrowest--between the right edge of the bunker and the rough/hazard on the right a player has 26 yards. Of course a player can play short of the bunker to a fatter part of the fairway (35 yards or so). It is only REALLY tight if you can't carry the bunker.
From the VERY BACK TEES, the hole is 500 yards and the carry from the back of the tee to the top of the bunker is 242 yards playing 260. The carry over the bunker is not nearly as far as most people think though it is a very intimidating shot. It is simply one of those times in a round where a player just has to suck it up and hit a golf shot!! (Or make a big number). Of course, a player can play conservatively and almost always make a five.
Some pics:
Early clearing:
l(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/IMG_0247.jpg)
The approach:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/IMG_0264.jpg)
Standing just past the fairway bunker--lots of room to play "into" the left hill and the fairway certainly opens up:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/image.jpg)
-
I'll try and find close up pics of #8--it really is a great green :D
#9 is our most controversial green. It is certainly a severe green. The greens are designed to roll no faster than 10 but of course, all the players want speed :( Anyway, even at 11 to 11.5 it is possible to two putt to every hole location from anywhere on the green. Now, I will grant you it may be damn near impossible and you may very well putt off the green and even into a bunker, but the approach shot is designed for no more than a 9-iron and I think there can be a severe penalty for being out of position on a green!!
Here are a bunch of pictures:
Architect Michael Riley (he really does know which end of the rake to use--I think) ;)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/image-4.jpg)
Construction--notice the slope and the bunker in front (my seniors hate me):
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/image-7.jpg)
There is a hole location over that left hump!!!
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/image-6.jpg)
This is a view the golfer really doesn't see unless he has hit it WAY up on the left hillside but it shows the green well:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole93.jpg)
Where did it go????
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole92.jpg)
Showing the left drive zone bunkers: Again from the tips the hole is 380 and plays downhill off the tee and then back up. The hole was designed to play as a fairway wood or hybrid which leaves one short of those fairway bunkers but leaves a 7, 8 or 9 iron shot. Or challenging the bunkers with a three wood or driver would leave less than 120 yards.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/9Rivermont-1.jpg)
-
This is a view the golfer really doesn't see
Uh, yeah...Chris...I've been there a few times. You know, for the views. :)
-
nope
-
Will the grass still be dormant in mid April??
I'd say there's a very good chance of partial dormancy then, depends on temps at night.
-
I'll try and find close up pics of #8--it really is a great green :D
#9 is our most controversial green. It is certainly a severe green. The greens are designed to roll no faster than 10 but of course, all the players want speed :( Anyway, even at 11 to 11.5 it is possible to two putt to every hole location from anywhere on the green. Now, I will grant you it may be damn near impossible and you may very well putt off the green and even into a bunker, but the approach shot is designed for no more than a 9-iron and I think there can be a severe penalty for being out of position on a green!!
I think that Chris is being modest. The number of truly great greens at RIvermont is astounding. 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12 are amazing (and almost all of the others are VERY interesting and fun). All in all probably my favorite set of greens.
I think that at 10.5-11 the greens seem to be quite playable (but they sure make you think long and hard before hitting your approaches at those speeds). For example, if the pin is on the back left of the 8th green at those speeds, even a small miss left is dead.
-
Will the grass still be dormant in mid April??
I'd say there's a very good chance of partial dormancy then, depends on temps at night.
Agreed. It takes a while for the ground to heat up enough to make the bermuda happy.
-
Wade, I think 5 is one of the best greens on the course.
-
Wade, I think 5 is one of the best greens on the course.
Mark,
I really do enjoy all the greens and each has its unique "story". I think 2,4,5,6,8,9,11,13,15 and 18 are really cool.
#5 was the hole most changed on the course and may have been the most natural setting for a green. The knoll across the creek where we located the green already existed and after scraping the dirt off it was everything Mike could do to tell Joey (our shaper) "just leave almost everything you see right there!!".
Mike described the green as a potato chip--the green is 9400 sq. ft. and moves away and right at first, does a little twist in the middle and has a high back right tier and the back left third of the green actually falls away to the left. The surrounds fall away in the back and short and the green plays pretty "small" actually.
I'll try and find some close ups but 5 is fun to play and putt.
-
Chris, I found that both the green contouring and the green shape on 5 serve to enhance the strategy from the tee. Pin location determines how aggressive one has to be on the tee shot. As Mac said earlier, playing to a left/back pin, I'd rather be in the carry bunker than on the left side of the fairway. Excellent golf hole.
-
One last picture of the "hated 9th" green :D
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Hole91.jpg)
Building the back tee on #10. We have removed a considerable number of trees along the left side:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/IMG_0023.jpg)
Several pics of Hole # 11. Driveable (300 from the tips):
A Lay up just past left bunker and about even with deep fairway bunker on the right would leave this approach:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/IMG_0510.jpg)
Left rough looking into the green (before the grasses really began to grow in):
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/G7LS644356.jpg)
Front right greenside bunker on #11:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/11atdawn.jpg)
-
I can't draw--obviously--but here is a sketch from my notebook re: 9th green. The green is pretty close to the version on the right.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/9sketch3.jpg)
I will say this about plans and "original" drawings--I would take them with a grain of salt. Obviously we had detailed plans (required for planning submission to gov't) but I really can't think of a single hole that didn't have significant changes made. If in 100 years someone came and looked at the "original" plans and tried to restore the course to what those depict, they would be making huge mistakes and would be "restoring" something neither Mike nor I would have ever desired.
Please understand I am NOT suggesting my course would be worthy of that one day but I know many people who are into restoring ODG courses seem to rely on "discovered" plans and I am pretty sure they might very well not reflect what was built. Way too much stuff happens in the field and crucial changes happen on every hole.
-
Chris,
Your real life take on the ability to restore courses from drawings, is fascinating, and worth a thread of its own.
And your photos of raking out bunkers with bud light bottles is proof that I should work for you, or at the very least, join your club!
-
Chris,
Your real life take on the ability to restore courses from drawings, is fascinating, and worth a thread of its own.
And your photos of raking out bunkers with bud light bottles is proof that I should work for you, or at the very least, join your club!
;D
Some may claim that the beer explains the contours of the green. It was a blast doing the work--great people to work with and we did have fun too.
-
This is a drawing I posted years ago before re-doing the creek crossing on #7. One idea was to pipe the creek and have a different type of crossing hazard--or none at all. We ended up eliminating the "sludge" ponds and the crossing creek is about a 4' stream.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/Rivermont7.jpg)
-
Wade, I think 5 is one of the best greens on the course.
5 is a tremendous green. But 17 is also spectacular and unique. What is amazing is that all of the greens are at least excellent and yet no two are at all alike. I love how Chris talks about the unique story that each green tells.
-
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/wr.jpg)
Hey Wade,
Hole 13 is one of my favorite "stories":
As you know it is a fairly short (297, 330, 339 and 373) hole that plays slightly downhill off the tee to a fairway that slopes slightly right to left and then the approach shot plays slightly uphill to a large green with absolutely no surrounding bunkers.
Here is a (very) crude before and after sketch:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/13sketch.jpg)
The two left bunkers on the old hole were removed and we placed a bunker on the right side of the fairway. This is really the preferred side as it leaves a flatter shot from slightly higher ground. It is a difficult shot to try and get the ball to end up on the right side as the ground slopes pretty well from right to left. Only a ball landing within yards of the bunker or faded into the hill will stay up on the right.
Instead of leaving the two left bunkers that may grab a ball before going into the rough or trees we removed them and the uneven lies, rough and slightly more uphill approach confront the player on this "safe", left side.
The three small pot bunkers about forty yards short of the green accomplish two main goals: (1) They draw your eye for the tee shot farther left than they should and encourage a "pull" and (2) when you face the second shot from the left, the bunkers well short do deceive you a bit on the yardage making the green appear far closer. For a wedge shot this slight "trick", the uphill nature and people's nature to under club combined with the huge false front can turn this seemingly easy hole into a pretty frustrating double very quickly ;)
The new green is only pinnable on the top tier. The front is a "green hazard"! What I really like overall about this hole is I think it plays much fairer and easier for the higher handicap player than before while being much more difficult for the scratch golfer.
The old green was a small, two tiered and surrounded by pretty deep bunkers. It was a drive and pitch for good players and I have always felt that surrounding a target like before only helped narrow the better player's focus which helped him hit a better shot! Surrounding a wedge shot green with three white bunkers just provided a "bullseye target".
Also, the bunkers required a forced carry onto a small target for everyone else. A poorer player has an impossible time hitting high, soft approaches and if they ended up in one of the bunkers, it was a certain double bogey or worse :(
Now, the size of the pinnable back area is equal to the entire size of the old green. There is nothing but grass around the green and a bail out to the right is flat and a relatively simple chip. A player has numerous options and can certainly run their ball up onto the green.
For the scratch golfer with a wedge hopefully they have played too safe or pulled their shot left and misjudged the approach or spun their ball too much and watched it zoom all the way back down the hill into the fairway. Once they have made that mistake, it can be several rounds playing deep into the green (or even over) leaving very difficult putts on what they deem a birdie hole.
For the average player, finding himself short of the green in two now instead of being in a bunker they have numerous options. Putting is the safest almost ensuring a score no worse than a bogey. A safe putt fifteen to twenty feet past the hole and safely on the top tier should yield a bogey. Getting "cute" and chipping or pitching in an attempt to get the shot very close can lead to numerous "do overs" :D
Again--easier for the average player, trickier for the better player and tons more options for everyone.
The small cluster of three bunkers about forty yards short of the green:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/13-copy.jpg)
Looking from the right at the slope of 13 green:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/13_green06-1.jpg)
-
13 is indeed a very unique and interesting hole. For example, when the flag is far left, anyone content to make a 5 can take a three wood from the tee and then punch a little shot right of the green. A conservative chip will then leave a decent look at par. However, a good player who goes at the flag and misses long, short or left can quickly be starring in a one-man comedy show. I have seen multiple players take 5+ chips from those spots.
-
One of the best fitting holes on the course is #16. Downhill and sweeping left this hole plays far shorter than its 425 yardage--Driver and a 9-rion to wedge for most. This view is from about 130 yards out if you hang a ball up on the right hill (rough). The greenside bunkers are 5-6 yards short of the green--not a good angle at all!
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/16greenhillside.jpg)
A drop shot par three. Actually my least favorite hole on the course but we have to get from 16 to 18! The green is our largest at 10,000 + sq. Ft. though it looks and plays smaller. Great contours :D The hole is 205 from the tips but plays 160 to the middle of the green. A 7 iron unless it is windy and then anything from a 4 iron to an 8 iron :o
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/17tee.jpg)
I actually like the tee shot on 18. The hole is a beast--480 from the tips (very slightly uphill), 410 from the regular tees. The fairway is very wide--40+ yards of fairway but tree line on left to creek on the right is more like 60 yards. Hazard on the left flows into the lake the guards really poor approach shots. David Noll was 1 up in Atlanta Am before dumping it into the lake from the fairway ?! He birdied the 19th hole to win anyway :)
A creek also runs the length of the hole on the right and right of the creek is OB which can come into play. From the tips the two fairway bunkers are about 290-320 away. I have toyed with adding a short left bunker in the fairway--forcing a carry of 245 yards or so to make those wanting to hit up the left side where the fairway is "hotter" and there is a bit of a slingshot effect thanks to a slight hump that gives a favorable forward kick. Still not sure as the hole is difficult enough and most players still have shots from hybrids to five irons--a generous final fairway seems right.
The green is divided almost perfectly into a left and right half by a severe spine--being on the wrong side of the spine will force you to hit a great putt for sure. There is a neat "bowl" on the left side of the green which is fun too!
View from the back tee watching a player tee off from the 410 tees and the first hole on the left.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/1greenand18tee.jpg)
Looking from 18 tee across to 1 green:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/G7LS585313.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/18tee.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/18acrossthelake.jpg)
Back right hole location--you want to be on correct side of the center spine for sure though it is hard to see here :(
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/18lookingback.jpg)