Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jud_T on February 20, 2013, 03:09:02 PM
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OK,
We all want to play great courses, but most of us don't have an unlimited budget. So I took the Unofficial GCA Rankings (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html) and adjusted for the high season unaccompanied weekend green fees if available. It's only the public and semi-public courses off the GCA Top 200 (I cut it off at any course rated 6.5 or higher). It should be noted that this ranking was done before places like Old Mac, Cabot Cliffs and Streamsong opened. I didn't include private courses that may permit occasional unaccompanied play as I don't have all that data, their fees aren't for public consumption and you generally have to be introduced by your club pro (although I'd be happy to discuss this offline or through PM). Obviously one can debate the methodology ad nauseum. Some would rather pay $50 to play a 6 than $150 to play an 8 or visa/versa. For others the green fee is immaterial in their hunt to notch the top 100. One thing's for sure, golf at the high end generally isn't cheap. The striking thing about this list is you're often paying a huge premium to play the #50 course in the world, when the course at #150 is a fraction of the price, but still really good golf (shout out to Sean Arble). I chose 6.5 as the cutoff as at some point it becomes silly and this still represents really good courses (A course rated 3 that was $20 to play would be #1). It's perhaps worth noting what courses you've played relative to this ranking. While I'm probably more well traveled than many golfers, in my own hunt to bedpost notch I've still yet to play 23 of the top 26 on this list! (Notes: Pinehurst #2 is an estimate as it's an all-in rate for resort guests, but probably not far off in terms of the ranking. Mandatory caddies, a la Whistling Straights, or carts are not included. Also anyone who can figure out the green fee at Sea Island shoot me a PM but it would surely be near the bottom of the list).
Course GCA Rank GCA Score Points^2/Dollar
1 Wild Horse Golf Club 124 7.21 1.0713
2 Barnbougle Dunes 24 8.60 0.7251
3 Black Mesa Golf Club 165 6.91 0.7133
4 Rustic Canyon Golf Course 174 6.84 0.7086
5 Carne 180 6.80 0.7006
6 Highlands Links 28 8.44 0.6912
7 Silloth-On-Solway 116 7.27 0.6223
8 Lawsonia Golf Club (Links) 97 7.41 0.6097
9 Pennard 101 7.40 0.6018
10 Macrihanish 83 7.56 0.5766
11 St. Enodoc 45 8.00 0.5565
12 Enniscrone 196 6.70 0.5226
13 Royal Dornoch 10 9.30 0.5144
14 Woking 86 7.53 0.4973
15 Paraparaumu Beach 54 7.85 0.4925
16 North Berwick 38 8.17 0.4874
17 Notts (Hollinwell) 129 7.17 0.4505
18 Cruden Bay 67 7.72 0.4350
19 The Golf Club at Cuscowilla 126 7.19 0.4312
20 Bethpage State Park (Black) 47 7.98 0.4247
21 Royal West Norfolk 96 7.42 0.4231
22 World Woods Golf Club (Pine Barrens) 157 6.96 0.4072
23 Ganton 71 7.68 0.4068
24 Newcastle GC 140 7.08 0.4014
25 Rye 43 8.00 0.4000
26 Saunton (East) 161 6.94 0.3953
27 St. Andrews (Old) 9 9.35 0.3689
28 Pacific Dunes 11 9.28 0.3667
29 Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog) 62 7.77 0.3658
30 Tobacco Road 147 7.00 0.3657
31 Burnham & Berrow 205 6.67 0.3419
32 Chambers Bay 108 7.33 0.3382
33 County Sligo 226 6.51 0.3368
34 Royal County Down 4 9.58 0.3346
35 Lahinch 34 8.30 0.3345
36 Alwoodley 158 6.96 0.3341
37 The Addington 141 7.08 0.3295
38 Royal Portrush 14 8.91 0.3253
39 St. George's Hill 39 8.15 0.3227
40 Worplesdon 218 6.57 0.3152
41 West Sussex 139 7.09 0.3143
42 The Island (Dublin, Ireland) 145 7.04 0.3138
43 Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin) 50 7.92 0.3108
44 Jasper Park 100 7.40 0.3094
45 Western Gailes 75 7.66 0.2947
46 County Louth 190 6.74 0.2853
47 Carnoustie (Championship) 48 7.97 0.2825
48 Ballybunion 17 8.78 0.2806
49 Nairn 204 6.67 0.2784
50 Royal Troon 103 7.39 0.2743
51 Portstewart 183 6.79 0.2741
52 Royal St. George's 30 8.37 0.2695
53 Homestead Resort (Cascades) 121 7.23 0.2678
54 Royal Aberdeen 156 6.97 0.2653
55 Bandon Trails 56 7.82 0.2603
56 Banff Springs 81 7.58 0.2600
57 Royal Melbourne (West) 3 9.65 0.2589
58 Royal Porthcawl 117 7.27 0.2578
59 Prestwick 57 7.81 0.2576
60 Muirfield 19 8.75 0.2569
61 Bandon Dunes 66 7.73 0.2540
62 Pasatiempo Golf Club 49 7.95 0.2531
63 Arcadia Bluffs 211 6.61 0.2424
64 Palmetto 182 6.79 0.2364
65 Walton Heath (Old) 68 7.71 0.2362
66 Royal Adelaide 135 7.13 0.2361
67 Mid Ocean 72 7.68 0.2359
68 Sunningdale (Old) 32 8.32 0.2325
69 Formby 221 6.55 0.2307
70 Royal Cinque Ports 107 7.34 0.2295
71 Turnberry (Ailsa) 33 8.32 0.2278
72 Portmarnock (Old) 60 7.80 0.2276
73 We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro) 134 7.13 0.2260
74 Kingston Heath 20 8.73 0.2249
75 Royal Birkdale 51 7.91 0.2213
76 Gleneagles King's 112 7.29 0.2180
77 Waterville 113 7.29 0.2143
78 Cape Kidnappers, N.Z. 36 8.27 0.2125
79 Pine Needles Country Club 155 6.98 0.2071
80 Royal Liverpool 91 7.49 0.2038
81 Harbour Town Golf Links 127 7.18 0.1953
82 Blackwolf Run Golf Club (River) 154 6.98 0.1947
83 Kingsbarns 80 7.60 0.1943
84 Sunningdale (New) 88 7.52 0.1897
85 Kapalua Golf Club (Plantation) 118 7.25 0.1891
86 The Berkshire (Red) 160 6.95 0.1815
87 Walton Heath (New) 172 6.86 0.1771
88 Ocean Course at Kiawah Island 52 7.91 0.1737
89 San Lorenzo 214 6.60 0.1735
90 The Berkshire (Blue) 186 6.76 0.1720
91 The European Club 199 6.69 0.1641
92 Royal Melbourne (East) 73 7.68 0.1638
93 Whistling Straits (Straits)* 74 7.66 0.1630
94 Pebble Beach Golf Links 18 8.75 0.1547
95 Cabo del Sol (Ocean) 99 7.40 0.1543
96 TPC at Sawgrass (Players Stadium) 64 7.76 0.1523
97 Spyglass Hill Golf Club 111 7.29 0.1478
98 Royal Lytham & St. Annes 85 7.55 0.1461
99 Pinehurst No. 2* 35 8.30 0.1450
100 Valderrama 123 7.21 0.1313
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+1
Jud - great idea, great post, great list: a fitting homage to our wise but crusty guide!
Thanks much
Peter
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I like the idea, too, but I would have played every course on that list by now if travel expenses weren't a bigger issue than the green fee. I doubt I'll ever play Barnbougle, and cost has everything to do with it.
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I like the idea, too, but I would have played every course on that list by now if travel expenses weren't a bigger issue than the green fee. I doubt I'll ever play the #1 course, and cost has everything to do with it.
Its the second cheapest course on the list for me to travel to.
And easily the best value for money golf (rack rate) n the world, IMO.
Peak season day rate of $120 for a course with legitimate claims to be in the best 1/2 dozen in the world.
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Too bad this only looked the top 100. Rustic Canyon was rated dreadfully low at 175 (IMO), but its 6.8 rating would still give it the lead in points/dollar at .1030
Not saying it is the best value, but it's better than half the list.
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Dave,
Agreed 100%. I'd love to visit Bandon, but with the same golf so near and so cheap, and from what I am told with arguably a better atmosphere, I may never get there.
You can't play 'em all, so something has to guide your choices.
Alex,
St Andrews Beach would probably challenge as well.
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Um, very few people live in Bridport. For just about everyone it's an automatic hotel and plane, possibly hire car as well. That said, it's worth every penny.
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Alex, good point. If you can find the link for the full GCA ranking I'll add those courses.
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Something missing, though just as well.
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I love this list.
It's the only list of Best Courses ever devised on which I've played four of the top 15.
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Not surprising that only 2 of the top 20 are US based.
And only 9 of the top 50.
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Mark B:
Um, very few people live in Bridport. For just about everyone it's an automatic hotel and plane, possibly hire car as well. That said, it's worth every penny.
Two days green fees: $260
Flights from Syd/Melb: $180
Two nights' accomm: $100
Qu share of rental car: $50
Two days food&beers: $150
Total for two full days playing the World #41 and World #82 - $740
I'd love to see the comparable costs of a high season visit to Bandon, flying from San Francisco.
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Very cool list
TOC and Pinehurst #2 sure are an even better deal for the locals
Maybe a traveler list and a local list for those considering where to live based on the golf
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Scott, you seem adept at maths. Go crazy! In other news, I played Royal New Kent on Monday for $19.
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Having looked at this and the link given to the earlier work (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html) it is obvious that a great deal of time and effort has gone into work. Well done to all involved.
This referenced link is a 2009/2010 one however and I am sure that many like myself, who have joined in at GCA since then, will not be familiar with the processes involved in putting things together.
If someone 'in the know' would be kind enough to write a few sentences explaining the processes involved it would be greatly appreciated.
In addition, from reviewing the names of the various courses in this thread and the 2009/2010 thread referenced above, I note no mention of either Saunton or Royal Aberdeen. I have used the search engine to double check both threads/posts and still can't find reference to either course. These omissions have come as something of a surprise. I've either played at, or indeed even been a member at, some of the courses on these listings and have long thought both Saunton and Royal Aberdeen to be superior to several others named in the listings.
All the best.
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Lots of quirk near the top of this list - what's that say about how the paying populace value quirk? Or more likely "Championship" courses are over-valued. Interesting in that I've played more from the bottom of the list...but am more emotionally attached to those at the top.
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Three Words: Inland English Courses.
Six Words: Sean's Tier Two Inland English Courses.
Eight Words: On Average, The Best Golf in the World
Four Words: Boo hoo for me
One Word: Hope
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Having looked at this and the link given to the earlier work (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html) it is obvious that a great deal of time and effort has gone into work. Well done to all involved.
This referenced link is a 2009/2010 one however and I am sure that many like myself, who have joined in at GCA since then, will not be familiar with the processes involved in putting things together.
If someone 'in the know' would be kind enough to write a few sentences explaining the processes involved it would be greatly appreciated.
In addition, from reviewing the names of the various courses in this thread and the 2009/2010 thread referenced above, I note no mention of either Saunton or Royal Aberdeen. I have used the search engine to double check both threads/posts and still can't find reference to either course. These omissions have come as something of a surprise. I've either played at, or indeed even been a member at, some of the courses on these listings and have long thought both Saunton and Royal Aberdeen to be superior to several others named in the listings.
All the best.
Jud
Quite interesting. Go to the unadjusted list and make your list go to 100 - that would really be interesting.
Thomas
The eligible list of courses was garnered from mag top 100 rankings. Then additional courses were added to the eligible list from nominated courses by the GCA rabble - all had to be seconded. I think this process added something like 75 courses, but I don't think a single one actually made the final top 100. Finally, a course had to have 10 votes before it was eligible for the final list. I think about 100 courses failed to meet this criteria and maybe half a dozen would have made the top 100 without the 10 vote minimum.
I think final list is quite interesting. While the usual suspects appear somewhere, but not always in the "normal" order. In many ways the list after the top 100 is most interesting.
I tend to lean with Brian on this one. If its a list based on value, money has to count for more than it seemingly is on the Unofficial GCA.com ranking. Mind you, value always starts with quality. Maybe not the very top end of quality, but quite high. Otherwise how can it be of high value to play a fleabag joint just because of a $10 green fee?
My top 25 from the Whip It Out thread is an example of what I am talking about.
Ciao
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Sean,
please forward that list to me as well and I'll try and make the adjustments...
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Jud
Email me, I don't do Outlook. sean.arble@gmail.com
Ciao
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Thanks Sean. I'll do some more search engining! Great thread and lots of work to compile it so well done again to all involved.
My number one for quality of golf and value for £$£$ would be 18-holes made up of a combination of the 9-hole Channel Course at Burnham and Berrow plus the 9-hole St Olaf course at Cruden Bay.
An anyday day ticket on the Channel at B&B is currently £20 (and I'm off there to avail myself of this in a couple of weeks time). The St Olaf at Cruden Bay is £20 for a day ticket in the week and £30 for a day ticket at the weekend. Mind you the Burnham-CB travel costs might distract a wee bit from the value element!
All the best.
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Thomas
B&B's Channel Course is high on my list of favourites as well. Be careful, the club is installing a new water system on the course as we speak. So it will be a bit torn up and it will be wet. The wetness is its biggest drawback and why I tend to only play it in the summer. Its a great deal for visitors to tag onto their Championship round - it only costs a fiver extra.
Ciao
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Sean, thanks for the tip about the work going on at B&B. I'll make some further enquiries before venturing there.
BTW, I see from the standard script on the bottom of your posts that you're hoping to get to Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen this year. Can I recommend that while at CB you take the opportunity to play the St Olaf, it's all good golf but holes 6, 7 and 8 are a wee bit special. Whilst at RA can I recommend you also play the first 7 and last 2 holes on the Silverburn course. If you like B&B's Channel course you should like these. Obviously these recommendations also apply to any other readers of this post visiting either CB and RA.
All the best.
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St Andrews Beach would probably challenge as well.
For the $25 twilight fee I paid there back in 2010 it is by far and away the best value golf I have ever and likely ever will play.
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Updated above to include every course rated 6.5 or better that had greens fees available.
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Excellent concept and good work, Jud. Could you possibly add the green fees (in USD) to your master list? Thanks.
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Rich, I'd rather not post the prices. It's not a difficult math problem to figure it out...
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Jug,
Here's a link to the 2013 green fees for Saunton - http://www.sauntongolf.co.uk/visitors - max £79 per round in summer with various discounts available depending on the time you want to play and if you have membership of another relevant club (referred to as County Card).
All the best
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Jug,
Here's a link to the 2013 green fees for Saunton - http://www.sauntongolf.co.uk/visitors - max £79 per round in summer with various discounts available depending on the time you want to play and if you have membership of another relevant club (referred to as County Card).
All the best
Thanks. Updated...
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Thanks to Jud for taking the time to crunch the numbers. I think the value proposition is very useful.
I have to admit, however, that it looks like a list of all the good public courses in the world listed from lowest price to highest. The range of the quality scores isn't big enough to make much difference against the much bigger pricing numbers.
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Thanks to Jud for taking the time to crunch the numbers. I think the value proposition is very useful.
I have to admit, however, that it looks like a list of all the good public courses in the world listed from lowest price to highest. The range of the quality scores isn't big enough to make much difference against the much bigger pricing numbers.
Everyone's got a different take on value, but I would be curious what squaring the quality score would bring to the table in order to give it a heavier weight. I don't have the spreadsheet, but it wouldn't be hard to do and could offer some interesting results.
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Thanks to Jud for taking the time to crunch the numbers. I think the value proposition is very useful.
I have to admit, however, that it looks like a list of all the good public courses in the world listed from lowest price to highest. The range of the quality scores isn't big enough to make much difference against the much bigger pricing numbers.
Everyone's got a different take on value, but I would be curious what squaring the quality score would bring to the table in order to give it a heavier weight. I don't have the spreadsheet, but it wouldn't be hard to do and could offer some interesting results.
On it. I was wondering how I should shift the weightings about. You'd think my days as a NY State Math geek would still count for something, but the aging process is quickly setting in. You can argue the weights indefinitely however... Stay tuned...
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Done. Updated above. Looks a bit better....
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Hmmm... I guess the question comes down to how does the Doak scale function mathematically? (This is the Doak scale, right?)
Since the number of courses on the scale gets thinner on both ends, what if we raised e to the power of the quality score of the course. This would give quite a bit more weight to the quality since squaring did not do much.
That's the EXP function in excel.
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I am looking at a ton of courses ranked top 300 in the world - all are plenty good enough to satisfy most snobs leaning heavily toward quality and practically everybody else (98% of golfers?) who swings a club. Why exactly does the quality quotient need kicking up? Is there really all that much difference in quality between 50 and 250? How bout between 50 and 25? If anything, there are courses on the list which only the very few of the most elite snobs could say they get value from. These people probably sail as well.
Ciao
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I think it's pretty good as it stands. If you weight the quality too much you just move inexorably back to the original list. Each guy can decide for himself if he'd rather play 1 round at Pebble, 2 rounds at Pac Dunes, 4 rounds at Barnbougle, 7 at Carne or 10 at Wild Horse for the same number of shekels. The point is to throw into relief how much the magazine rankings influence pricing as we all line up like lemmings with our Amex cards out for bragging rights while so many really good to great courses that are just under the radar go begging at a fraction of the price.
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Done. Updated above. Looks a bit better....
I agree. Alex knows a lot more about the math stuff than I do, but I think the squaring at least helps the issue. There's no perfect formula.
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nice to see Dornoch being the only scottish course in the top tier; however, like others have mentioned, the greens fee cost is almost irrelevant considering it can't be played in the same rotation at the southern courses. Often, people overlook Dornoch considering it takes a full half day to get up there (not possible to day trip) and the breadth of courses in the area is not as deep as other high traffic golf areas such as Fife and East Lothian). Hopefully this will change with introduction of Castle Stuart and as always with nice rounds at Brora and a day trip to Nairn.
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Hmmm... I guess the question comes down to how does the Doak scale function mathematically? (This is the Doak scale, right?)
Alex
The Doak scale is supposed to be logartihmic, so some sort of exponential function should be applied to the "Score" column.
Rich
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Jud-
Where, if at all, would you put your newly-beloved Harrison Hills ($30-ish) on this list if you were able to rig the standings?
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Jud-
Where, if at all, would you put your newly-beloved Harrison Hills ($30-ish) on this list if you were able to rig the standings?
Interesting question. I doubt it would make the 6.5 cutoff with this jaded lot. There's only 8 original holes and while Tim Liddy did a fine job with the renovation, it's on less interesting terrain; probably a Doak 5 or 6 for most (6 as the original 9 in the CG). If it were a 6.5 however, it would easily top the list at $28 to walk weekends. Brings up a good point about 9 holers though. Royal Worlington as a Doak 9 for 50 pounds would come in second!
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Hmmm... I guess the question comes down to how does the Doak scale function mathematically? (This is the Doak scale, right?)
Alex
The Doak scale is supposed to be logartihmic, so some sort of exponential function should be applied to the "Score" column.
Rich
Rich,
Thanks, as I suspected. Now all we need to do is figure out how "value" functions in terms of dollars. Easy... ::)
By the way, thanks for doing all this Jud!
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Hmmm... I guess the question comes down to how does the Doak scale function mathematically? (This is the Doak scale, right?)
Alex
The Doak scale is supposed to be logartihmic, so some sort of exponential function should be applied to the "Score" column.
Rich
Rich,
Thanks, as I suspected. Now all we need to do is figure out how "value" functions in terms of dollars. Easy... ::)
By the way, thanks for doing all this Jud!
And factor in exchange rate fluctuations, etc.
What with the pound plummeting to ~$1.51, and Arble et. al. continuing to ferret out great £25/round courses in MittelInglerland, I would suspect that Wild Horse might not be top of the tree for long.....
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Rich,
Best absolute value is probably a different discussion/list. Obviously the best value is a Doak 5 that costs $20 like Spring Valley or one of Sean's off-the-run gems. The genesis of this list is to look at the best courses in the world and then superimpose a value scale upon them.
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Rich,
Best absolute value is probably a different discussion/list. Obviously the best value is a Doak 5 that costs $20 like Spring Valley or one of Sean's off-the-run gems. The genesis of this list is to look at the best courses in the world and then superimpose a value scale upon them.
Agreed, Jud, and as Alex and others have said, in effect, great 1st stab at developing some sort of "value for money" list. Let's try to keep working on it, even though it is always going to be a work in progress, rather than some sort of finished product.
Rich
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Another to represent this would be to chart it:
X-axis = price
Y-axis = quality
Place and label a mark for each course per the x and y values
Favor those in the upper left quadrant
I'd do a mock-up but I'm lazy and on an iPad.... 8)
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Another to represent this would be to chart it:
X-axis = price
Y-axis = quality
Place and label a mark for each course per the x and y values
Favor those in the upper left quadrant
I'd do a mock-up but I'm lazy and on an iPad.... 8)
Actually a pretty good idea. You could essentially develop an efficient frontier of GCA/price. Ideally it would be interactive.... 8)
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Jud,
Excellent work in gathering the prices and assembling the list.
I'm suggesting an adjustment here, but I realize that everything is subject to debate and just want to provide this as a resource for folks rather than generating a ton of conversation about the exact way I scaled it. Everyone's interpretation of golf course rankings and ratings is personal, and everyone's valuation of great golf and ability to pay for it is a little different too.
A while back, I asked myself how much I would be willing to pay to play some of the great courses and also courses of much lower reputation/quality, based on my own interpretation of the Doak scale. I developed a table of values and a formula that I'll get to later.
By dividing value or ranking^2 by price, as Jud did, you are easily able to determine where the best value for golf is and this system can help you to determine where to play. It makes a lot of sense to say that a course you value at $100 but for which you only pay $50 is a better deal than the course you value at $300 that has a green fee of $250, because you can play the cheaper course five times for the price of the more expensive one (and get the $50 surplus value each time).
However, by asking how much a course is undervalued or overvalued (value minus price, instead of value divided by price), you can develop a ranking that works when you're considering spending part of that $250 on things other than golf. That is, when you don't have a dedicated portion of your budget set aside for golf. My ranking system puts the two hypothetical courses in the above example at the same exact ranking, and that's one drawback, especially if you have a lot of time to play golf.
The other advantage of the formula I propose below is that courses of all levels can be compared; you don't have to cut it off at 6.5 and it's impossible for low-quality courses to rise to the top of the chart.
So, here is my own personal formula:
Dollar value=318*(arcsin(GCA points/10))^1.7 [arcsin is ASIN in Excel, for anyone who wants to play around and develop their own formula]
This results in values like:
10 @ $685
9 @ $385
8 @ $280
7 @ $206
6 @ $150
5 @ $100
4 @ $70
3 @ $42
2 @ $21
1 @ $6
I think I might be willing to spend a little more to play Augusta or NGLA, but nobody's searching for a good deal in that corner of the golf course rankings.
So here's my table of good deals among great golf courses, based on the unofficial GCA ranking and the prices Jud found last year. Note that rankings are not too sensitive to changes in the formula, as long as dollar value has the exponential shape with respect to quality.
Unofficial GCA rank Course name GCA points Surplus value
10 Royal Dornoch 9.3 262
24 Barnbougle Dunes 8.6 235
28 Highlands Links 8.44 217
4 Royal County Down 9.58 209
9 St. Andrews (Old) 9.35 202
11 Pacific Dunes 9.28 192
124 Wild Horse Golf Club 7.21 172
45 St. Enodoc 8 165
38 North Berwick 8.17 158
N/A A 6.5 that costs $20 157
83 Macrihanish 7.56 146
97 Lawsonia Golf Club (Links) 7.41 144
101 Pennard 7.4 142
54 Paraparaumu Beach 7.85 142
3 Royal Melbourne (West) 9.65 141
116 Silloth-On-Solway 7.27 139
165 Black Mesa Golf Club 6.91 134
174 Rustic Canyon Golf Course 6.84 130
N/A A 6 that costs $20 130
14 Royal Portrush 8.91 130
86 Woking 7.53 128
47 Bethpage (Black) 7.98 128
180 Carne 6.8 128
67 Cruden Bay 7.72 120
43 Rye 8 120
71 Ganton 7.68 109
96 Royal West Norfolk 7.42 104
129 Notts (Hollinwell) 7.17 103
196 Enniscrone 6.7 102
34 Lahinch 8.3 101
126 Cuscowilla 7.19 99
62 Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog) 7.77 96
39 St. George's Hill 8.15 87
140 Newcastle 7.08 87
N/A A 5 that costs $20 or a 6 that costs $59 86
157 World Woods (Pine Barrens) 6.96 85
17 Ballybunion 8.78 83
161 Saunton (East) 6.94 81
147 Tobacco Road 7 72
50 Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin) 7.92 71
108 Chambers Bay 7.33 69
141 The Addington 7.08 59
158 Alwoodley 6.96 59
205 Burnham & Berrow 6.67 56
19 Muirfield 8.75 56
100 Jasper Park 7.4 56
30 Royal St. George's 8.37 54
75 Western Gailes 7.66 53
48 Carnoustie (Championship) 7.97 52
139 West Sussex 7.09 52
226 County Sligo 6.51 51
145 The Island (Dublin, Ireland) 7.04 51
N/A A 6 @ $100, a 5 @ $54, or a 4 @ $20 50
218 Worplesdon 6.57 44
103 Royal Troon 7.39 33
190 County Louth 6.74 31
56 Bandon Trails 7.82 30
57 Prestwick 7.81 27
204 Nairn 6.67 27
121 Homestead (Cascades) 7.23 26
49 Pasatiempo 7.95 26
81 Banff Springs 7.58 25
183 Portstewart 6.79 25
66 Bandon Dunes 7.73 22
156 Royal Aberdeen 6.97 21
117 Royal Porthcawl 7.27 19
20 Kingston Heath 8.73 13
32 Sunningdale (Old) 8.32 11
33 Turnberry (Ailsa) 8.32 5
68 Walton Heath 7.71 4
72 Mid Ocean 7.68 4
211 Arcadia Bluffs 6.61 3
135 Royal Adelaide 7.13 -1
182 Palmetto 6.79 -2
60 Portmarnock (Old) 7.8 -4
107 Royal Cinque Ports 7.34 -6
221 Formby 6.55 -7
134 We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro) 7.13 -10
51 Royal Birkdale 7.91 -11
36 Cape Kidnappers 8.27 -18
112 Gleneagles (King's) 7.29 -18
113 Waterville 7.29 -23
155 Pine Needles 6.98 -30
91 Royal Liverpool 7.49 -36
154 Blackwolf Run (River) 6.98 -45
127 Harbour Town 7.18 -46
80 Kingsbarns 7.6 -50
118 Kapalua (Plantation) 7.25 -55
88 Sunningdale (New) 7.52 -56
160 The Berkshire (Red) 6.95 -63
172 Walton Heath (New) 6.86 -68
214 San Lorenzo 6.6 -69
186 The Berkshire (Blue) 6.76 -74
199 The European Club 6.69 -85
52 Ocean Course at Kiawah Island 7.91 -88
73 Royal Melbourne (East) 7.68 -106
74 Whistling Straits (Straits) 7.66 -108
99 Cabo del Sol (Ocean) 7.4 -122
64 TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium) 7.76 -135
18 Pebble Beach 8.75 -141
111 Spyglass Hill 7.29 -141
85 Royal Lytham & St. Annes 7.55 -146
35 Pinehurst No. 2 8.3 -168
123 Valderrama 7.21 -176
Some of the truly great courses move up significantly in the value rankings from the (already great) version of the rankings that Jud did. The courses that move up more than 10 spots:
Royal Dornoch
Royal County Down
The Old Course
Pacific Dunes
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Portrush
Ballybunion
Muirfield
Kingston Heath
Lessons I've learned from this activity:
- Traveling for great golf is expensive, as is traveling for very good golf. Especially within the United States.
- Enjoy whatever time I get to spend in remote corners of the world like Dornoch and Barnbougle and Bandon.
JB
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A "good deals" list that has Royal Dornoch at the top and TOC at #5 seems a little bizarre. I think this stems from the fact that a "10" course is deemed to be almost twice as valuable as a "9" course, which I personally find unrealistic. Tom Doak says he splits hairs between great and greater with his scale, for most mere mortals there will not be much of a difference between a 9 and a 10. And even 8 will in most cases be much, much better than 99% of the golf we play day-in, day-out.
Ulrich
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Wildhorse Nebraska
Delaware Springs Texas
Wine Valley Washington
Mid Pines NC
Bayside Nebraska
Common theme here? Proctically speaking, yes.
(Hey!! They're in MY top 100)
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JB,
Interesting conceptually, although I might be tempted to look at savings vs. "estimated value" in % terms. I'm pretty sure most people would value a $50 savings more highly on a course that's 'worth' $100 than on one worth $300. Of course one could easily adjust for whether your personal course rank was higher or lower than the GCA consensus or if it were a 1 time play vs. your everyday club etc.
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These people probably sail as well.
Ciao
Yes, but I sail someone else's boat. ;) That's why I like UK clubs: you own the course, but let me take it for a sail occasionally. ;D
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I understand why this thread exists but to me the highest value I have ever received from playing golf were at the Old course at St Andrews and at Pebble Beach, despite the fact that they are very expensive courses to play. That would also hold true if I ever get to play at ANGC or PV, even if I have to pay several thousand for the round.
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Jud, as I understand it you took the highest greens fee anyone can pay in figuring the scores. But many courses offer much better deals than that at various times. May be a pain to calculate, but I wonder what the scores and ranking come to for low season weekday with specials? Also not the highest or lowest prices possible, but the average greens fee?
Rich G: are you sure Doak's scale is logarithmic? If so, Tom himself did not base it on 10: he gave more than ten courses a score of ten; less than 100 courses a score of 9, way less than 1000 courses a score of 8, etc.
ETA: I hope Jud used the unadjusted quality scores from the GCA rankings. He should have IMO.
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Jud, as I understand it you took the highest greens fee anyone can pay in figuring the scores. But many courses offer much better deals than that at various times. May be a pain to calculate, but I wonder what the scores and ranking come to for low season weekday with specials? Also not the highest or lowest prices possible, but the average greens fee?
Rich G: are you sure Doak's scale is logarithmic? If so, Tom himself did not base it on 10: he gave more than ten courses a score of ten; less than 100 courses a score of 9, way less than 1000 courses a score of 8, etc.
ETA: I hope Jud used the unadjusted quality scores from the GCA rankings. He should have IMO.
Jim
The biggest reason I don't use deal prices is because they tend to be off season, at bad times or only available to certain people. I think its better to compare what it costs to play courses during prime time in high season. That way at least its an apples for apples comparison, just as if someone was getting a quote, the spec doesn't change.
Jud
I generally look at "savings" in terms of what I can buy while on a golfing holiday. For instance, if its a £50 saving, I can have a good meal or a game at a good course. It its a £10 saving it doesn''t mean much - can't even buy a hat. Plus, I think for many, once they have seen the expensive course once or twice, they will often look for cheaper alternatives. So its a matter of saving money, experiencing different courses and past experience.
Wayne - yes, for sure, there are some courses which provide great value despite a high green fee. I am not sure paying thousands of dollars is terribly clever, but to each is own.
Yes, but I sail someone else's boat. You and me both brother. :D
Ciao
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Sean,
I agree. 50 bucks is 50 bucks, but my point was just that all else being equal, 50 bucks off a 500 dollar green fee is still 450 bucks while 50 bucks off a 100 dollar green fee is a deal.
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You might recalculate CDS Ocean which can be played for $165 USD any day of the week (late afternoon) during our high season.
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You might recalculate CDS Ocean which can be played for $165 USD any day of the week (late afternoon) during our high season.
Yeah, but that's around the same time that the wet t-shirt contests start in Cabo. A man has to have his priorities straight... 8)
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You might recalculate CDS Ocean which can be played for $165 USD any day of the week (late afternoon) during our high season.
Yeah, but that's around the same time that the wet t-shirt contests start in Cabo. A man has to have his priorities straight... 8)
Wednesday - play Desert Course early for a reasonable price then enjoy wet T-shirt Wednesday
Thursday - sleep in, play golf later on Ocean Course for a bargain
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Rich G: are you sure Doak's scale is logarithmic? If so, Tom himself did not base it on 10: he gave more than ten courses a score of ten; less than 100 courses a score of 9, way less than 1000 courses a score of 8, etc.
Jim:
Yes, I have described the Doak scale as logarithmic in the past, meaning that I think the leap from a 6 to a 7 to an 8 is more than just a slight difference. But of course it's not a 10x logarithm, because there aren't millions of golf courses in the world ;) . If you think of the distribution of courses as something of a Bell curve, with "3" the average course, and there are 30,000 golf courses in the world, every jump up should have about 1/3 as many courses as the previous step. That would give a distribution something like this:
3 or below: 20,000 courses
4: 8,100
5: 2,700
6: 900 courses
7: 300
8: 100
9: 30
10: 10 courses
Which is not too far off the distribution pattern for courses I've rated, considering I'm only trying to see the best of them. I was probably a bit too stingy with the 9's, based on this view, but I didn't start out with a distribution in mind ... I felt my way to it.
This distribution also means that a rating of 6 puts a course among the top 5% in the world, and a 5 is in the top 15%.
As to the topic of this thread, value for dollar depends on how you value the jumps on the scale, a topic on which reasonable minds with different financial means will certainly disagree. Certainly, by the way I've defined the Doak scale, an 8 should be worth a lot more than twice the green fee a 4 is worth. If every point on the Doak scale doubled the value of the green fee, and a 1 cost $1, then a 10 would be worth $512, so that's too strong, because you can't find many courses for $4 or $8. It seems to work more like a 50% increase for each point:
10 - $450
9 - $300
8 - $200
7 - $135
6 - $90
5 - $60
4 - $40
3 - $27
2 - $18
1 - $12
I have to admit that I'm blown away by the rack rate green fees for nearly all the top courses nowadays ... but I do think Pebble Beach is way closer to being worth $500 than Spyglass Hill is to being worth $350 or $400.
The nature of the modern economy is increasing the multiplier, though, as some economists like Mr. Piketty are starting to figure out. It's long been accepted that 20% of the people would amass 80% of the wealth, but it's only recently that anyone thought that there would be no restraint on compounding that principle, so that 20% of the 20% would own 80% of the 80% [that's 4% owing 64% of the wealth, or 0.8% of the people owning 51.2% of the wealth at the next step]. Economics in this age is quickly evolving to winner-take-all, and the winners can afford any green fee they want.
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10 - $450
9 - $300
8 - $200
7 - $135
6 - $90
5 - $60
4 - $40
3 - $27
2 - $18
1 - $12
Using the above scale you are really saying TOC (£155/$260) is a bargain ;) I would dig a bit deeper and say the Sacred 9 (£70/$118 for ALL DAY GOLF) is a steal at twice the price ;D
Honestly though, the way that scale jumps 8 to 10 is crazy.
Ciao
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Honestly though, the way that scale jumps 8 to 10 is crazy.
Sure it's crazy, for the economic means of 95% of people. But many golfers are in that last 5% and that's who the prices are set for.
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Just wanted to follow up on a few things:
Jud, I definitely agree that considerations of value are different based on whether you're talking about choosing a home course or a one-time play.
There's a lot to be said for circumstances but also for seeing new courses for the sake of variety. Personal valuations also depend heavily on what's in one's backyard, literally or figuratively. That's part of why this thing is "to each his or her own".
Here a new version of the table I made based on what Tom Doak said about valuing courses on his own scale. As I don't own a copy of the Confidential Guide, I really don't know how I'd value courses at the lower end of the scale. (And I've yet to play a course that I personally consider a 9, so all in all, I think this adjusted version may be better than my original one.) However, not much changes in terms of the rankings.
Course name GCA points Doak value ($) Surplus ($) Value rank
Royal Dornoch 9.3 339 171 1
Barnbougle Dunes 8.6 255 153 2
Highlands Links 8.44 239 136 3
St. Andrews (Old) 9.35 346 109 4
Royal County Down 9.58 380 105 5
Pacific Dunes 9.28 336 101 6
Wild Horse Golf Club 7.21 145 97 7
A 6.5 that costs $20 6.5 109 89 8
St. Enodoc 8 200 85 9
North Berwick 8.17 214 77 10
A 6 that costs $20 6 89 69 11
Macrihanish 7.56 167 68 12
Lawsonia Golf Club (Links) 7.41 157 67 13
Pennard 7.4 157 66 14
Silloth-On-Solway 7.27 149 64 15
Paraparaumu Beach 7.85 188 63 16
Black Mesa Golf Club 6.91 129 62 17
Rustic Canyon Golf Course 6.84 125 59 18
Carne 6.8 123 57 19
Woking 7.53 165 51 20
Bethpage (Black) 7.98 198 48 21
Royal Portrush 8.91 289 45 22
Cruden Bay 7.72 179 42 23
Rye 8 200 40 24
A 5 that costs $20 5 59 39 25
Enniscrone 6.7 118 32 26
Royal Melbourne (West) 9.65 390 31 27
Ganton 7.68 176 31 28
Notts (Hollinwell) 7.17 143 29 29
Royal West Norfolk 7.42 158 28 30
Cuscowilla 7.19 144 24 31
A 6 that costs $65 6 89 24 32
Lahinch 8.3 226 20 33
A 4 that costs $20 4 40 20 34
Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog) 7.77 182 17 35
Newcastle 7.08 138 13 36
World Woods (Pine Barrens) 6.96 131 12 37
Saunton (East) 6.94 130 8 38
St. George's Hill 8.15 213 7 39
A 5 that costs $55 5 59 4 40
Ballybunion 8.78 274 0 41
Tobacco Road 7 133 -1 42
Chambers Bay 7.33 152 -6 43
Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin) 7.92 194 -8 44
A 6 that costs $100 6 89 -11 45
Burnham & Berrow 6.67 117 -13 46
Alwoodley 6.96 131 -14 47
The Addington 7.08 138 -14 48
County Sligo 6.51 109 -17 49
Jasper Park 7.4 157 -20 50
West Sussex 7.09 138 -22 51
The Island (Dublin, Ireland) 7.04 136 -22 52
Western Gailes 7.66 174 -25 53
Worplesdon 6.57 112 -25 54
Muirfield 8.75 271 -27 55
Carnoustie (Championship) 7.97 198 -27 56
Royal St. George's 8.37 232 -28 57
County Louth 6.74 120 -39 58
Royal Troon 7.39 156 -43 59
Nairn 6.67 117 -43 60
Portstewart 6.79 122 -46 61
Homestead (Cascades) 7.23 146 -49 62
Bandon Trails 7.82 186 -49 63
Royal Aberdeen 6.97 132 -51 64
Prestwick 7.81 185 -52 65
Banff Springs 7.58 169 -52 66
Pasatiempo 7.95 196 -54 67
Bandon Dunes 7.73 179 -56 68
Royal Porthcawl 7.27 149 -56 69
Arcadia Bluffs 6.61 114 -66 70
Kingston Heath 8.73 269 -70 71
Sunningdale (Old) 8.32 228 -70 72
Palmetto 6.79 122 -73 73
Walton Heath 7.71 178 -74 74
Mid Ocean 7.68 176 -74 75
Royal Adelaide 7.13 141 -75 76
Formby 6.55 111 -75 77
Turnberry (Ailsa) 8.32 228 -76 78
Royal Cinque Ports 7.34 153 -82 79
Portmarnock (Old) 7.8 184 -83 80
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro) 7.13 141 -84 81
Royal Birkdale 7.91 193 -90 82
Gleneagles (King's) 7.29 150 -94 83
Waterville 7.29 150 -98 84
Cape Kidnappers 8.27 223 -99 85
Pine Needles 6.98 132 -103 86
Royal Liverpool 7.49 163 -113 87
Blackwolf Run (River) 6.98 132 -118 88
Harbour Town 7.18 143 -121 89
Kingsbarns 7.6 170 -127 90
Kapalua (Plantation) 7.25 148 -130 91
Sunningdale (New) 7.52 165 -133 92
The Berkshire (Red) 6.95 131 -135 93
San Lorenzo 6.6 113 -138 94
Walton Heath (New) 6.86 126 -140 95
The Berkshire (Blue) 6.76 121 -145 96
The European Club 6.69 118 -155 97
Ocean Course at Kiawah Island 7.91 193 -167 98
Royal Melbourne (East) 7.68 176 -184 99
Whistling Straits (Straits) 7.66 174 -186 100
Cabo del Sol (Ocean) 7.4 157 -198 101
TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium) 7.76 181 -214 102
Royal Lytham & St. Annes 7.55 167 -224 103
Pebble Beach 8.75 271 -224 104
Pinehurst No. 2 8.3 226 -249 105
Valderrama 7.21 145 -251 106
Spyglass Hill 7.29 150 -345 107
The only big mover in the rankings is Royal Melbourne (West). Based on the values Tom gave, the only course in the US worth spending a night in a $100 motel room in peak season is Pac Dunes. Thinking about things this way really casts a negative light on golf travel, huh?
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The point of the exercise is to showcase that there are great 6s, 7s and 8s that can be had for a reasonable price and, depending on one's preferences, are often more enjoyable than some of the big name tournament courses. It puts into relief the silliness of the 'I played the Top 100' crowd. If you can afford to drop $500 every Saturday to play Pebble and that floats your boat then you needn't concern yourself with this list. The point for the broader golfing public is that the quality difference between 60 and 130 in the country is really pretty small and subjective but the price tag differential can be pretty large. Plus there's a certain satisfaction to finding a hidden gem. And one has to decide if you'd rather be the guy sporting a Whistling Straights cap, an Old Head Shirt, a Spyglass belt, a Doonbeg umbrella, a Medinah logo ball and a European Club ball mark or the guy with a rumpled old shirt from the Sacred Nine.
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Honestly though, the way that scale jumps 8 to 10 is crazy.
Sure it's crazy, for the economic means of 95% of people. But many golfers are in that last 5% and that's who the prices are set for.
I was thinking more in terms of the value placed on a so called 10, 9 or 8. These are merely opinions on which many people can and do disagree. I tend to have a cut-off no matter how good the course is. That isn't to say I wouldn't pay above that price point to see some selected courses, but it does mean I won't go back to many expensive places unless they really impress. Looking at the courses, the cut-off seems to be about £125/$200, but I generally think of $100 as the point where I seriously question the bang for buck. And to be honest, the older I get, the more cynical I become about what golf costs. Golf green fees is classic badge engineering, BMW can't do it any better. Thats why Jud's list appeals.
Ciao
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Jud,
How about creating a 201-300 list??? Would that be a Doak 5/6? Hidden Gems are where it's at...
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Hidden Gems are where it's at...
Sure, we all like hidden gems, I get that. But if I'm given those choice of playing Billy Joe Unknown Golf Course or a Chicago Golf Club, a Crystal Downs or a Shinnecock, it's not that tough of a choice for me.
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Hidden Gems are where it's at...
Sure, we all like hidden gems, I get that. But if I'm given those choice of playing Billy Joe Unknown Golf Course or a Chicago Golf Club, a Crystal Downs or a Shinnecock, it's not that tough of a choice for me.
CD and Shinny would be great, dah! Hidden gems are just as much fun IMHO. I want to play Lawsonia and Yale just as much...
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Hidden Gems are where it's at...
Sure, we all like hidden gems, I get that. But if I'm given those choice of playing Billy Joe Unknown Golf Course or a Chicago Golf Club, a Crystal Downs or a Shinnecock, it's not that tough of a choice for me.
CD and Shinny would be great, dah! Hidden gems are just as much fun IMHO. I want to play Lawsonia and Yale just as much...
Not sure they'd be as much fun as the one chance to play something world class.
Now back to the Blue Jackets game...
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Brian,
Obviously once in a lifetime rounds at the best of the best are great. Not exactly earth shattering news. But how great? Would you rather play 1 round at Pebble, 2 at Pac Dunes, 6 at Lawsonia or 12 at Wild Horse? It's a very personal case by case thing but it's an attempt to put some rigor to value instead of just being another belt notcher at any cost.
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Brian,
Obviously once in a lifetime rounds at the best of the best is great. Not exactly earth shattering news. But how great? Would you rather play 1 round at Pebble, 2 at Pac Dunes, 6 at Lawsonia or 12 at Wild Horse? It's a very personal case by case thing but it's an attempt to put some rigor to value instead of just being another belt notcher at any cost.
Fair enough point. I'd rather play more golf than less golf.
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This is a very good thread. I think Mid Pines should be on the list, but the question is since peek rates are $175-225 now, but drop down to $60 in late November do you take that in account? Summer rates might be less too. Still i would think it is a Doak 8-8.5 post restoration.
Southern Pines should def. be on the list imo.
World Woods pine barrens? Would anyone consider it a Doak 6.5?
Any other courses that break into the list?
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BC,
We used the High Season Weekend Unaccompanied rate, so it probably would be somewhere toward the lower end of the list. There are plenty of courses that offer good value for really good golf off-season, i.e. Bandon, but this is about really good golf for the $$'s year-round, not about bargains or special deals, which of course are always worth seeking out.
P.S. World Woods is on the list at #22
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Charlevoix Municipal-Charlevoix, MI
Midland Valley-Graniteville, SC
Great Dunes and Oleander Course-Jekyll Island, GA
Hard Labor Creek-Madison GA
Washington-Wilkes CC-Washington, GA
as a few examples
Affordable and architecturally interesting golf is probably more abundant than you think if you just take the time to visit some courses with an open mind.
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Thanks Jud - very cool list.
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This is a great list. I feel that Diamond Springs belongs on this list. I'd think its equal value as pine barons WW.
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Not sure if its been mentioned, but Wine Valley has gotta be on the list.
Its easily a Doak 7-8 course, and you can play it for $60. I'm not aware of any course so highly rated that you can play for that cheap!!
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Also mid Pines at $225-240 peak season trumps #2 at $500 and needles at $220.
Ocala Golf club is right on cut line. A 6 but for florida it's an 8. For $30 or so it belongs in top 100 and I'll give it 6.5.