Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Carl Nichols on January 09, 2013, 04:21:46 PM
-
Could anyone point me to the definitive list (or something close) of the courses in which Raynor had an important role in the design and/or construction? Not trying to get into a debate about whether a specific course should be included--just trying to see a reasonably accurate list of courses where he played an important role, even if others (e.g., MacDonald) had as or more important roles. Thanks in advance.
-
Paging George Bahto...
-
Carl,
This is the best list that I could find. It's from worldgolf.com. I'm sure there may be a few that this list is missing, I am not one to debate influence or anything either.
Blind Brook Club - Private in Purchase, NY
Blue Mound Golf & Country Club - Private in Wauwatosa, WI
Brookville Country Club - Private in Glen Head, NY
Camargo Club - Private in Cincinnati, OH
Country Club of Charleston - Private in Charleston, SC
Country Club of Fairfield - Private in Fairfield, CT
Creek Club, The - Private in Locust Valley, PA
Dunes at Monterey Peninsula Country Club - Private in Pebble Beach, CA
Eighteen Hole at Sleepy Hollow Country Club - Private in Scarborough, NY
Elkridge Club - Private in Baltimore, MD
Everglades Golf Course - Private in Palm Beach, FL
Fox Chapel Golf Club - Private in Pittsburgh, PA
Greenbrier - Greenbrier Course in White Sulphur Springs, WV
Greenbrier - Old White TPC Course in White Sulphur Springs, VW
Greenwich Country Club - Private in Greenwich, CT
Lookout Mountain Golf Club - Private in Lookout Mountain, GA
Metairie Country Club - Private in Metairie, LA
Mid Ocean Club in Bermuda
Mid-Pacific Country Club in Kailua, HI
Midland Hills Country Club - Private in Saint Paul, MN
Morris County Golf Club - Private in Morristown, NJ
Mountain Lake - Private in Lake Wales, FL
Nine Hole at Sleepy Hollow Country Club - Private in Scarborough, NY
Roselle Golf Club - Private in Roselle, NJ
Shoreacres - Private in Lake Bluff, IL
Somerset Country Club - Private in Mendota Heights, PA
Southampton Golf Club - Private in Southampton, NY
Thousand Islands Country Club - The Lake Course in Wellesley Island, NY
Thousand Islands Country Club - The Old Course in Wellesley Island, NY
Waialae Country Club in Honolulu, HI
Wanumetonomy Golf & Country Club - Private in Middletown, RI
Westhampton Country Club - Private in Westhampton Beach, NY
Yeamans Hall Country Club - Private in Hanahan, SC
-
There are a ton of courses missing from the list above; Raynor probably built between 100 and 150 courses total.
Macdonald only did 12, and Raynor had a had in all but his first efforts at Chicago Golf Club [what is now the Downers Grove muni] and his Macdonald's original layout in Wheaton, though Raynor revised that layout thoroughly with C.B.'s blessing in 1926.
The Macdonald list:
Chicago Golf Club [v.1 and v.2]
National Golf Links of America
Piping Rock Club
The Creek Club
Deepdale Club [original - now part of Lake Success GC]
The Links Golf Club, NY [NLE]
Sleepy Hollow Country Club
Yale University GC
Mid Ocean, Bermuda
The Greenbrier (Old White), WV
Gibson Island, MD
St. Louis Country Club
Sleepy Hollow C.C.
-
Add these to the list
Augusta CC (GA)
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club (FL) - NLE
Bellport GC (NY)
Berwind Porto (PR) - NLE
Chicago GC (IL) - as noted by TD
Cow Neck CC (NY) - original Southampton plan - never built
Crawford County Club (NY) - redesign
Cypress Point Club (CA) - routing
Dedham Country & Polo Club (MA)
Deepdale G&CC (NY)
Essex County CC (East) (NJ)
Essex Fells CC (NJ)
Fishers Island Club (NY)
Gardiner's Bay CC (NY)
Gibson Island GC (MD)
Grand Hotel GC (NY)
Green Park - Norwood GC (NC)
Greenbrier (Lakeside) (WV) - redesign
Hotchkiss School GC (CT)
Kahn Estate (NY)
Knapp Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Knollwood CC (NY)
Lido Club (NY)
Links Club (NY)
Maidstone GC (NY)
Minnesota Valley CC (MN)
Moore Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Nassau CC (NY) - Hole 5 - Eden
North Palm Beach CC (for Paris Singer) (FL)
North Shore CC (NY)
Oakland GC (NY)
Ocean Links (NY)
Olympic Club (Lake) (CA) - hired, drew plans, never built
Piping Rock Club (NY)
Riddles Bay G&CC (Ber)
Rock Spring CC (NJ)
Rumson CC (NJ)
Santa Barbara GC (CA) - plans submitted
Sequoyah CC of Oakland - plans submitted
Shinnecock Hills GC (NY)
St. Louis CC (MO)
Statesville CC (NC)
Stauffer Estate (LA)
Westchester Hills GC (NY) - Raynor drew plans, unknown if he built the course or if his plans were used.
Whitney Estate (NY)
Women's National G&CC (NY) - advisor to Hollins, course built by D. Emmet
Yale University GC (CT)
Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?
-
in the back of Bahtos book, their is a long list of courses attributed to either macdonald, raynor and or banks
-
Augusta CC was Raynor?
-
Sven,
Hackensack was Banks, not Raynor. Did you get your list from Planet golf?
-
Bill:
Bahto has Raynor and Banks.
Sven
-
Augusta CC was Raynor?
At one point there were two courses, one by Raynor (a revision of an Ogilvie layout) and one by Ross. The course that remains is the Ross.
-
Is Camargo the only example of Raynor in Ohio? Did he design, or work on, any other courses in Ohio (perhaps something NLE)?
-
Augusta CC was Raynor?
At one point there were two courses, one by Raynor (a revision of an Ogilvie layout) and one by Ross. The course that remains is the Ross.
Thanks Sven...I was quite confused on that one.
-
Bill:
Bahto has Raynor and Banks.
Sven
Well, he better fix it :) Raynor was dead six months before we acquired the land... It is an old myth perpetuated by a famous local sportswriter, Red Smith. I found our old board minutes, and know for a fact that we interviewed and hired Banks, not Raynor.
-
Speaking of Raynor - George Bahto, any update on the status of the next book (of what I believe was to be a 3 volume set) following the terrific Evangelist of Golf?
-
Bill:
I've deleted it from the list in my post above.
Unfortunately, Hackensack isn't covered in any great detail in the Evangelist of Golf, although George does note the dates 1925-1927. To satisfy my own curiosity, what dates did you come up with in your research for the land purchase/interview (I'm guessing mid-1926)? Not trying to play devil's advocate.
I do know that there are a few courses that were designed and/or started by Raynor that were completed by Banks after his death. Not saying that Hackensack was one of those, but perhaps the existence of that model lent some credence to the idea that Raynor was involved there at all.
Second question, with respect to the original course, did Bendelow do the first nine, the second nine, or both?
Sven
-
Augusta CC was Raynor?
At one point there were two courses, one by Raynor (a revision of an Ogilvie layout) and one by Ross. The course that remains is the Ross.
Thanks Sven...I was quite confused on that one.
Josh:
I should probably clarify that both of the courses (Hill and Lake) were laid out by Ogilvie in 1902. Ross' work on the Hill Course (in 1927) was also a renovation. The Travis Society has record of his creation of a plan for a new green on the 6th hole of the Lake Course a couple of years prior to Raynor's work in 1926. At the time both courses were owned by the Bon-Air Vanderbilt Hotel, a winter retreat reached from the Northeast by train.
Sven
-
Augusta CC was Raynor?
At one point there were two courses, one by Raynor (a revision of an Ogilvie layout) and one by Ross. The course that remains is the Ross.
This is the way I understand it as well, plus I believe Raynor was also involved in converting the greens of the current course to Bermuda. Its on the ACC website, but I cant access it from my Ipad.
-
Is Camargo the only example of Raynor in Ohio? Did he design, or work on, any other courses in Ohio (perhaps something NLE)?
Brian:
Cornish and Whitten list Camargo as Raynor's only Ohio course.
-
Somerset Country Club in Mendota Heights, MN (Suburb of St Paul) is a Raynor too.
-
Is Cold Springs Country Club in NY the old Otto Kahn Estate course Raynor is credited with? The date of establishment for CSCC is after Raynor's death.
-
Is Cold Springs Country Club in NY the old Otto Kahn Estate course Raynor is credited with? The date of establishment for CSCC is after Raynor's death.
Nigel:
I think that is correct.
I believe it was also known as Oheka GC (using the letters from Otto H. Kahn).
Sven
-
George Bahto has not finished his book on Raynor as of yet has he?
-
I assume that the Maidstone GC that Sven listed is The Maidstone Club in Easthampton? I had not heard of Raynor doing anything there before. Anyone know what he did?
-
Sven, I think the Deepdale course is NLE , as they had to relocate the club, and had Dick Wilson design the new one because of a highway or something. I know you keep very good records, just something I noticed on your list.
-
A couple of follow up questions/thoughts for the group:
1. For Dedham, the Ross Society lists his work as a new course replacing the original 1897 Findlay layout. Was the Raynor course a new design (and if so was it on the same land or a new plot) or a renovation of the Ross course?
2. Did Raynor work on the University of Minnesota GC (aka Les Bolstad)?
3. For Green Park - Norwood (aka Blowing Rock CC), the Ross Society has him working there a few years prior to Raynor. Were these different courses, or did they bring Raynor in shortly after Ross added 9 new holes, which seems a little odd?
4. I've seen listings for Bayside CC in Rhode Island attributed to Raynor, does anyone have any additional information on this course?
5. There have been several theories bantered about around here regarding the Mac/Raynor connections to the upper crust of NY Society. The number of private/estate courses on his resume (including Ocean Links in RI, North Palm Beach and a few others) seems to suggest that he was the go to guy for this type of project.
Keith:
Raynor and Vaughn expanded Maidstone in 1916 and Raynor modified the course in 1922. I believe it took on its current form when Willie and John Park revised 11 holes in 1925. I'm curious as to why the club saw the need to redo the course in 1925, only 9 years after Raynor's initial work.
Nigel:
Deepdale is NLE (as are many of the courses noted). The easiest way to track it in this thread is that the World golf list seems to be comprised of courses that still exist).
Sven
-
Would like to annotate some courses like Doak, Nilsen, etc. have done where that can be clearly done.
North Palm Beach CC in Florida is [NLE]
The course was pretty much bull dozed by the village/county and now a Nicklaus signature course is there. A lot of Raynor features were lost before the county decided to move on and build a Nicklaus in 2006 or so.
Oakland GC (NY) is [NLE]
Ocean Links (RI) is [NLE]
Imagine George will soon get a better list up.
-
Would like to annotate some courses like Doak, Nilsen, etc. have done where that can be clearly done.
North Palm Beach CC in Florida is [NLE]
The course was pretty much bull dozed by the village/county and now a Nicklaus signature course is there. A lot of Raynor features were lost before the county decided to move on and build a Nicklaus in 2006 or so.
Oakland GC (NY) is [NLE]
Ocean Links (NY) is [NLE]
Imagine George will soon get a better list up.
Between the Keith's World Golf list, TD's Mac additions and the courses I noted, all of the known courses are there (that being said, I'm always interesting in being proven wrong when it comes to attributions). If someone wants to compile the list into one post, I'd be happy to add in dates and other relevants facts (other archies involved, NLE, etc.).
Of course, if George chimes in, all the better. As he noted in EofG, Raynor did not leave the trail of bread crumbs that many of his contemporaries provided in their records and journals, making his history tough to pin down.
Sven
-
Sven,
Raynor did not work on the University of Minnesota course, now called Les Bolstad. That was designed by Tom Vardon, then the White Bear Yacht Club pro who did a number of courses in this part of the world. Rick Shefchik talks about this in his book on Minnesota golf history.
Raynor did design Midland Hills Country Club, which is basically across the street from the U of M course. The initial membership was composed largely of people with ties to the university. It was also initially called "University of Minnesota Golf Club." The club changed its name to Midland Hills in 1922.
This is where the confusion comes from.
And just to clarify, neither Les Bolstad or Midland Hills is the same as Minnesota Valley. That is also a Raynor course, located in the Minneapolis suburb of Bloomington.
There are three Raynors in Minnesota: Somerset, Midland Hills and Minnesota Valley.
Here's info from the Midland Hills website:
THE TRADITION
“Remember that our club is still in the making and that we want to make it such a club that because of the physical exercise in the open, because of the good friendship and good sportsmanship, you are a better companion, more efficient in your daily life and a greater source of happiness in the family circle.”
- 1920 Annual Meeting Notice
The “Roaring Twenties” had just begun when a group of University of Minnesota professors and local business leaders met to develop plans for a new 18-hole golf course on farm land adjacent to the University’s St. Paul campus. As golf was exploding in popularity across the United States after World War I, members of the recently formed University Club were looking to expand their “playground.”
Consider the era: In St. Paul, Vaudeville acts were still popular at the Orpheum Theater. The St. Paul Saints were in first place ahead of the Minneapolis Millers and F. Scott Fitzgerald published his first novel, This Side of Paradise. Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen were the top golfers in the land and Babe Ruth had just been sold to the New York Yankees for $125,000.
It was during this period that Midland Hills was born!
The Golf Club was initially established almost entirely by a group of faculty members of the University of Minnesota. On July 15, 1915, as a 'voluntary, unincorporated University of Minnesota Golf Club' they leased ground for a golf course from Mr. and Mrs. John G. Barrett.
The lease from the Barretts was only for five years and in 1919 it became advisable to negotiate for a renewal. The group hoped to get a renewal of the lease for a period of twenty years. However, Barrett's attorney thought that there was to be a large industrial development in the region and therefore advised them against a renewal of the lease for any extended period. Therefore the Club failed to obtain the renewal of the the Barrett lease.
In the meantime, they decided to incorporate. The Articles of Incorporation were drawn up in December 1919 and made official in January of 1920.
At that time, the nearby 110 acre Walsh farm was available for a lease and they executed a 20 year lease on this property. Additionally, 40 acres of attractive land adjacent to the Walsh farm was leased from a Mr. Andersen. These two tracts of land were frequently referred to as the West 110 and the East 40.
Coincidentally, an architect named Seth Raynor, a Princeton graduate and Long Island surveyor, was building the Somerset golf course in St. Paul, Minnesota and after viewing the rolling hills of the future Midland Hills, agreed to lay-out the course for $1500. Raynor was also the protege of the great Charles Blair Macdonald, one of the most famous golf architects. A Professor at the University of Minnesota completed the topographical map for $300.
Building of the course was begun July 15, 1920. The Walsh farmhouse was converted into the first Clubhouse in 1921 at a cost of $5,000. A founding member and University mathematics professor, Ralph Barton, supervised the course construction. A crew of local laborers was organized—thirty-three men and three teams of horses. Rocks were removed, often by hand. An old tractor was used to shape tees while the crew dug the bunkers. Greens were raked and covered with topsoil. The club held work festivals so members could pitch in with the project.
Midland’s golf course opened for play on July 23, 1921. It was a hot and humid Saturday afternoon with temperatures in the upper 80s. It was reported that 72 golfers played in the first tournament while reporters from the St. Paul Pioneer Press covered the event.
The increasing interest in golf in the Twin Cities area was so great that the Club encountered relatively little difficulty in filling up its membership from the business and professional community. The preponderance of non-faculty members made the title of "University of Minnesota Golf Club" a misnomer and a less restrictive name seemed desirable. The Board of Governors requested suggestions for a new name from its members. Among those suggested were: Allermiur, Kabekowa, Midland Hills, Midmoreland, Rosetown, and Waveland. The membership voted overwhelmingly in favor of Midland Hills Country Club. The change of name was formally recorded by the Secretary of State on April 21, 1922.
Midland’s golf course is noted for its rolling hills, undulating greens and fine putting surfaces. The course underwent a significant renovation in 2001 and was lengthened in 2005. The course is playable by all levels of golfers. For those who like a challenge, the course now stretches to over 6,800 yards from the back tees. The course has been the site of many competitions, including the 2006 Minnesota State Amateur Championship.
The initial membership fee was set at $50, with annual dues of $25 per year. The initial guest green fees were fifty cents on weekdays and $1.00 on weekends and Holidays. Some items of interest and of trivia which have been excerpted from the Minutes Books of the Board of Governors meetings and members annual meetings from the beginning of the Club to the present time are as follows.
-
Jeff:
Thanks. Differentiating the orig. U. of M. course (l/k/a Midland Hills) from the Les Bolstad course clears up the question.
Was this Barton's first foray into GCA? Seems like the pairing worked out pretty well, as Barton continued to work with Raynor and went on to a fairly nice career in the business.
Sven
-
One other thing after looking at the Les Bolstad website, that course was "established" in 1929, several years after Midland Hills was up and running and after the death of Raynor.
It appears that all three Raynors in Minnesota were built between 1919 and 1924.
-
Bill:
I've deleted it from the list in my post above.
Unfortunately, Hackensack isn't covered in any great detail in the Evangelist of Golf, although George does note the dates 1925-1927. To satisfy my own curiosity, what dates did you come up with in your research for the land purchase/interview (I'm guessing mid-1926)? Not trying to play devil's advocate.
I do know that there are a few courses that were designed and/or started by Raynor that were completed by Banks after his death. Not saying that Hackensack was one of those, but perhaps the existence of that model lent some credence to the idea that Raynor was involved there at all.
Second question, with respect to the original course, did Bendelow do the first nine, the second nine, or both?
Sven
Sven,
This is actually a pretty cool story, if you are a GCA nerd like many of us :)
I first met George Bahto when he visited our course about ten years ago and indicated that he thought Raynor may have routed it, and Banks built the course. That was a fascinating premise, so I went about the process of determining if, in fact, Hackensack should be listed as a Raynor.
I spent a couple of Saturdays in the Hackensack (city) library reading years of old newspapers on microfiche. It was really cool, many of the headines talked about the construction of the New Hudson River Bridge. (Later named George Washington Bridge. It was built with one level, but designned to accept a second level below for the expected growth in train traffic...)
I was looking for any possible reference to Raynor routing the course. I discovered many articles depicting a tax dispute between the City of Hackensack and the Hackensack Golf Club. We finally won an appeal setting the value at about $300,000 and then sold the property to a developer for an amount more than double that, higher than the City thought it should be valued...
It all happened quickly: HGC merged with with Kinderkamack Club on August 6, 1926, (we took in their 70 members and acquired about 400 acres and a rudimetary 9 holes course.) The HGC Board minutes of 11/15/26 indicate Banks was chosen as the architect and sent to Oradell to conduct his survey and draw up plans. (He beat out Tillinghast and Stiles & Van Kleek.) Raynor had died 1/23/26, well before any of this occurred.
Bendelow did all 18 holes of the course in Hackensack city, as far as I can tell.
We sold that property to a developer named McFadden. The newspapers quickly had full page ads for "Garden Suburbs, a highly restricted community." We held the note, and he paid us as properties were sold. All went well for a few years, we built 18 of the 27 holes Banks laid out, and our Wendehack clubhouse, until the stock market crashed and we stopped getting paid... I think we stopped paying the builder and settled with his wife years later...
-
A couple of follow up questions/thoughts for the group:
1. For Dedham, the Ross Society lists his work as a new course replacing the original 1897 Findlay layout. Was the Raynor course a new design (and if so was it on the same land or a new plot) or a renovation of the Ross course?
2. Did Raynor work on the University of Minnesota GC (aka Les Bolstad)?
3. For Green Park - Norwood (aka Blowing Rock CC), the Ross Society has him working there a few years prior to Raynor. Were these different courses, or did they bring Raynor in shortly after Ross added 9 new holes, which seems a little odd?
4. I've seen listings for Bayside CC in Rhode Island attributed to Raynor, does anyone have any additional information on this course?
5. There have been several theories bantered about around here regarding the Mac/Raynor connections to the upper crust of NY Society. The number of private/estate courses on his resume (including Ocean Links in RI, North Palm Beach and a few others) seems to suggest that he was the go to guy for this type of project.
Keith:
Raynor and Vaughn expanded Maidstone in 1916 and Raynor modified the course in 1922. I believe it took on its current form when Willie and John Park revised 11 holes in 1925. I'm curious as to why the club saw the need to redo the course in 1925, only 9 years after Raynor's initial work.
Nigel:
Deepdale is NLE (as are many of the courses noted). The easiest way to track it in this thread is that the World golf list seems to be comprised of courses that still exist).
Sven
Sven,
Tony Pioppi and I looked into "Bayside CC" over the past summer. We found the course in Rhode Island under an apartment complex, however the historical records showed the course wasnt built until the 1940s. We both did some more research and concluded that Whiten/Cornish made a mistake in giving Raynor credit.
-
Bill:
Thanks for the story. Another example of how even the best sources can become outdated as new information comes to light. As for the Bendelow question, I have a 9 hole course originally laid out in 1899 with 9 holes being added some time before 1916. Seeing as the two 9's were built at different times, I wondered if Bendelow was responsible for both.
Also, no need to ask the guy compiling a list of all golf architecture work done before 1940 in the U.S. if he is a GCA nerd. My only issue is that the scope of the project is so broad I need the geeks like you to help fill in some of the details.
Sven
-
Alex:
I think the only reference I've seen to it was in C&W, and that wouldn't be the first mistake or omission from that resource. I always wondered if this was somehow a confused citation to Raynor's work at Oakland GC in Bayside, NY.
Curious as to where it was located in RI, and also how the hell you could find anything beneath an apartment complex. Sounds like some crack research.
Sven
-
Thanks to everyone for the responses.
-
Alex:
I think the only reference I've seen to it was in C&W, and that wouldn't be the first mistake or omission from that resource. I always wondered if this was somehow a confused citation to Raynor's work at Oakland GC in Bayside, NY.
Curious as to where it was located in RI, and also how the hell you could find anything beneath an apartment complex. Sounds like some crack research.
Sven
Sven,
Tony and I did some deep research :)
When I saw it was listed in Rhode Island, I did an aerial research and saw the course was NLE and that an apartment complex was built over the old course. I contacted Tony, who did some digging and contacted some people himself. He discovered that the course called Bayside CC in Rhode Island was built after 1940 and we have an aerial that shows the course around then. While not a Raynor course, it did have a unique island green among a sea of sand.
-
Tony Pioppi and I looked into "Bayside CC" over the past summer. We found the course in Rhode Island under an apartment complex, however the historical records showed the course wasnt built until the 1940s. We both did some more research and concluded that Whiten/Cornish made a mistake in giving Raynor credit.
That's interesting. There is an aerial photo of Bayside dating from 1938.
-
Alex:
I think the only reference I've seen to it was in C&W, and that wouldn't be the first mistake or omission from that resource. I always wondered if this was somehow a confused citation to Raynor's work at Oakland GC in Bayside, NY.
Curious as to where it was located in RI, and also how the hell you could find anything beneath an apartment complex. Sounds like some crack research.
Sven
Sven,
Tony and I did some deep research :)
When I saw it was listed in Rhode Island, I did an aerial research and saw the course was NLE and that an apartment complex was built over the old course. I contacted Tony, who did some digging and contacted some people himself. He discovered that the course called Bayside CC in Rhode Island was built after 1940 and we have an aerial that shows the course around then. While not a Raynor course, it did have a unique island green among a sea of sand.
Warwick? If so, I think I found the spot. You can almost make out the playing corridors even with all the development.
-
Jim,
Maybe it was built in 1930s, I'll have to check what Tony sent me. Regardless, it was after both Raynor and Banks had passed.
-
Not doubting it's post-Raynor or Banks. There are a few interesting greens.
-
Carl Nichols: “a definitive listing of Seth Raynor golf courses”
Oh yeah - I’ve been working on that for about 15 years now and the list goes on and on and on.
I have seen articles/quotes by Macdonald stating how many course SR built - can’t remember the number right now but I’m nowhere near that number.
In an article in the Olympian magazine during the time Raynor was designing the original course (never built) for them, the author was told the a number of Raynor designs - that was 1918 and that too was mind-boggling.
OK, Charlie Macdonald may have been prone to exaggeration but certainly Raynor was not.
I have turned up nearly 30 courses he never was credited for building and they keep popping up.
Even that little Charleston muni down the street from CC of Charleston. They are all over the place and it has been fun turning them up.
Tony Pioppi and I visited Dedfham and lo and behold !! - we all know the North Shore CC story now.
Even the early building of Nassua CC on Long Island by Raynor, later done over by Strong. That was a tough one for me because in that area there are man Raynor-bilts or designs; Creek, Piping Rock, Brookville, North Shore etc ........ I could never figure out why not Raynor at Nassau. The Joe Bausch uncovering all that stuff in the Brooklyn Eagle and there is was, Not kust one hole but the whole course (for a while, anyhow).
About the reference to Bayside, in RI: I think it is referencing the present Wanumetonomy Golf & Country Club - probably listed as Bayside - cause it is at bay side.
That course was paid for by the famous T Suffern Tailer of Ocean Links fame.
An article written quoting CBM at the time they were building Mid Ocean states Riddles Bay, although Dev Emmett is the recognized archie. Dev often acted as a hi-voltage construction foreman of sorts for Macdonald andf Raynor I assume. He was ver close to Macdonald, even helping him accumulate the drawing of the famous holes in Europe before building National.
So there is no “official” list for publication at this point - I’m sure I’ll have more when I’m done. (This has bee real fun for me)
Even at Greenbrier, Raynor built one of the short courses and perhaps two of them.
Aside: I wonder why WorldGolf has Sleepy Hollow a 9 hole Macdonald
Don’t mis understand the list of Macdonald courses in the Evangelist of Golf - that book was to define some of the course built by Macdonald - nothing reflecting Raynor, although there a couple cases in th Macdonald list that were more Raynor than CBM or all Raynor)
Sven asked: “Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?” - how could I do that - he didn’t design anything there
Augusta was Raynor at one time. The Bon Air Vanderbilt’s ads in the day listed the course as such - SR was to have built the second course but that was put off for a long time -
Keith: yes Raynor visited Maidstone twice - first on the original expansion with Vaughn, then again in 1922.
We also have interesting things like: Misquamicut Club - Raynor 5-holes (fm Pioppi reseqrch)
also: Capt. H C Tippett w/ advice fm C B Macdonald 1927
Newport CC paid Raynor $500 for something or another (a visit?)
Of course Shinnecock Macdonald and Raynor 1916 thru 1930-31
Whitney, H P, Private Estate Course NLE 9 holes 1922 (even have a few airplane shots of that course. It was an expanded version of the 3-green practice gcourse he built for his friend Eddie Moore
regards - been busy “working” - hah
George
-
Just keep workiing Bahto!!!!! ;D
-
Whoa...based on this it's going to be an effort in the future to sort my stuff...good luck, don't ask, still in progress :)
-
George,
Looking forward to the Raynor/Banks book coming to fruition.
Best of luck on the rest of your research and book writing/publishing details.
-
Add these to the list
Sven,
I've put a red asterik next to the club's where I have questions about Raynor's involvement.
Maybe George can enlighten me as to the work produced
Augusta CC (GA)
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club (FL) - NLE
Bellport GC (NY)
Berwind Porto (PR) - NLE
Chicago GC (IL) - as noted by TD
Cow Neck CC (NY) - original Southampton plan - never built
Crawford County Club (NY) - redesign
Cypress Point Club (CA) - routing
Dedham Country & Polo Club (MA)
Deepdale G&CC (NY)
Essex County CC (East) (NJ)*
Essex Fells CC (NJ)*
Fishers Island Club (NY)
Gardiner's Bay CC (NY)
Gibson Island GC (MD)
Grand Hotel GC (NY)
Green Park - Norwood GC (NC)
Greenbrier (Lakeside) (WV) - redesign
Hotchkiss School GC (CT)
Kahn Estate (NY)
Knapp Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Knollwood CC (NY)
Lido Club (NY)
Links Club (NY)
Maidstone GC (NY)
Minnesota Valley CC (MN)
Moore Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Nassau CC (NY) - Hole 5 - Eden
North Palm Beach CC (for Paris Singer) (FL)
North Shore CC (NY)
Oakland GC (NY)
Ocean Links (NY)
Olympic Club (Lake) (CA) - hired, drew plans, never built
Piping Rock Club (NY)
Riddles Bay G&CC (Ber)
Rock Spring CC (NJ)
Rumson CC (NJ)*
Santa Barbara GC (CA) - plans submitted
Sequoyah CC of Oakland - plans submitted
Shinnecock Hills GC (NY)
St. Louis CC (MO)
Statesville CC (NC)
Stauffer Estate (LA)
Westchester Hills GC (NY) - Raynor drew plans, unknown if he built the course or if his plans were used.
Whitney Estate (NY)
Women's National G&CC (NY) - advisor to Hollins, course built by D. Emmet
Yale University GC (CT)
Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?
-
Add these to the list
Sven,
I've put a red asterik next to the club's where I have questions about Raynor's involvement.
Maybe George can enlighten me as to the work produced
Augusta CC (GA)
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club (FL) - NLE
Bellport GC (NY)
Berwind Porto (PR) - NLE
Chicago GC (IL) - as noted by TD
Cow Neck CC (NY) - original Southampton plan - never built
Crawford County Club (NY) - redesign
Cypress Point Club (CA) - routing
Dedham Country & Polo Club (MA)
Deepdale G&CC (NY)
Essex County CC (East) (NJ)*
Essex Fells CC (NJ)*
Fishers Island Club (NY)
Gardiner's Bay CC (NY)
Gibson Island GC (MD)
Grand Hotel GC (NY)
Green Park - Norwood GC (NC)
Greenbrier (Lakeside) (WV) - redesign
Hotchkiss School GC (CT)
Kahn Estate (NY)
Knapp Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Knollwood CC (NY)
Lido Club (NY)
Links Club (NY)
Maidstone GC (NY)
Minnesota Valley CC (MN)
Moore Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Nassau CC (NY) - Hole 5 - Eden
North Palm Beach CC (for Paris Singer) (FL)
North Shore CC (NY)
Oakland GC (NY)
Ocean Links (NY)
Olympic Club (Lake) (CA) - hired, drew plans, never built
Piping Rock Club (NY)
Riddles Bay G&CC (Ber)
Rock Spring CC (NJ)
Rumson CC (NJ)*
Santa Barbara GC (CA) - plans submitted
Sequoyah CC of Oakland - plans submitted
Shinnecock Hills GC (NY)
St. Louis CC (MO)
Statesville CC (NC)
Stauffer Estate (LA)
Westchester Hills GC (NY) - Raynor drew plans, unknown if he built the course or if his plans were used.
Whitney Estate (NY)
Women's National G&CC (NY) - advisor to Hollins, course built by D. Emmet
Yale University GC (CT)
Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?
Patrick,
In the ECCC minutes, Raynor is listed as architect and his name is on the plan. Raynor was hired in July 1925, and I saw a letter in our archives informing the club of Raynor's death, as well as Banks assuming Raynor's responsibilities.
For the second course, now the Byrne, only Banks was listed as architect.
-
Alex, my mistake, I got my directions mixed up and was thinking of the West.
-
Waialae claims to have been designed by Raynor. What is the case there? Did the redesign take away most of the Raynor?
-
Waialae was origninally a Raynor, but I think the features have been softened over the years by work done on the course. I believe the nines have flipped. The current 17th was the redan, but at least on tv seems to have little slope at all.
-
Sven asked: “Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?” - how could I do that - he didn’t design anything there
George:
The reason I asked is because you listed Raynor and Banks for a number of Raynor designs where Banks did the construction. I would have thought that Raynor's role at NGLA may have been worthy of note under the same thought process.
Looking forward to seeing the updates of your work, whether in final production form or any additional finds that are noted along the way.
Sven
-
Jeff:
Thanks. Differentiating the orig. U. of M. course (l/k/a Midland Hills) from the Les Bolstad course clears up the question.
Was this Barton's first foray into GCA? Seems like the pairing worked out pretty well, as Barton continued to work with Raynor and went on to a fairly nice career in the business.
Sven
Sven,
To further expand on Jeff's information on Raynor's work in Minnesota, the original U. of M. course was a 9-holer located more or less on the same site as the current 18-hole Les Bolstad course, started in 1915 by faculty and administrators of the University of Minnesota, including math professor Ralph Barton. When they became concerned that their lease would not be renewed, they began negotiating for the farmland across the street in 1919. They initially wanted Ross to design the new course (which would eventually be called Midland Hills), but Ross turned them down the first time and asked for too much money the second time, so they "settled" for Raynor, who was building Somerset CC in in Mendota Heights, just south of St. Paul. Barton was put in charge of organizing the club's volunteer work crews, and in the process began working closely with Raynor as his de facto foreman. Barton learned so much on that job that Raynor asked him to go to work full time for Raynor's architectural firm, leaving his job at the U. of M. to help Raynor build Mid Ocean.
In the meantime, those who didn't join the new private club stayed at the U. of M. course. Bill Clark (Minneapolis Golf Club pro who designed Oak Ridge and several Twin Cities municipal courses) lengthened and redesigned the U. of M. course in the early 1920s (it was briefly renamed Minnepau) before the University officially bought the course and enough additional land in 1927 to expand the course to 18 holes. They hired Vardon for that job. That course, now called Les Bolstad, is essentially the same as it was when Vardon's redesign opened in 1929.
-
Rich:
Thanks for the clarification.
Sven
-
Add these to the list
Sven,
I've put a red asterik next to the club's where I have questions about Raynor's involvement.
Maybe George can enlighten me as to the work produced
Augusta CC (GA)
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club (FL) - NLE
Bellport GC (NY)
Berwind Porto (PR) - NLE
Chicago GC (IL) - as noted by TD
Cow Neck CC (NY) - original Southampton plan - never built
Crawford County Club (NY) - redesign
Cypress Point Club (CA) - routing
Dedham Country & Polo Club (MA)
Deepdale G&CC (NY)
Essex County CC (East) (NJ)*
Essex Fells CC (NJ)*
Fishers Island Club (NY)
Gardiner's Bay CC (NY)
Gibson Island GC (MD)
Grand Hotel GC (NY)
Green Park - Norwood GC (NC)
Greenbrier (Lakeside) (WV) - redesign
Hotchkiss School GC (CT)
Kahn Estate (NY)
Knapp Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Knollwood CC (NY)
Lido Club (NY)
Links Club (NY)
Maidstone GC (NY)
Minnesota Valley CC (MN)
Moore Course (NY) - 3 hole course
Nassau CC (NY) - Hole 5 - Eden
North Palm Beach CC (for Paris Singer) (FL)
North Shore CC (NY)
Oakland GC (NY)
Ocean Links (NY)
Olympic Club (Lake) (CA) - hired, drew plans, never built
Piping Rock Club (NY)
Riddles Bay G&CC (Ber)
Rock Spring CC (NJ)
Rumson CC (NJ)*
Santa Barbara GC (CA) - plans submitted
Sequoyah CC of Oakland - plans submitted
Shinnecock Hills GC (NY)
St. Louis CC (MO)
Statesville CC (NC)
Stauffer Estate (LA)
Westchester Hills GC (NY) - Raynor drew plans, unknown if he built the course or if his plans were used.
Whitney Estate (NY)
Women's National G&CC (NY) - advisor to Hollins, course built by D. Emmet
Yale University GC (CT)
Question as to why Bahto doesn't list Raynor for NGLA?
Pat:
Here's some additional information from EofG on a couple of the courses you noted:
Essex Fells - Raynor drew up plans in 1923, Braid built the course to those plans in 1928.
Rumson - Raynor solo, some time in the 1920's
Rumson is an interesting one to me. There is record of a "Rumsen GC" in "Rumsen" (no yardage or number of holes provided) in the 1900 and 1901 Harper's Reports. Barker's 18 hole layout is given a date of 1910 by other sources. I have no information on whether or not Barker's course was on the same piece of property as the earlier course.
The 1920's renovation would be in line with the updates that were taking places to many similar courses during that time. If you track the yardages in the Annual Guides, it ranges from 6,400 (1916-1920), dropping down to 6,276 in 1921 and then jumping back up to the 6,500 range in the late 20's. Just looking at the yardage reports, one would assume that the work done in the 20's was either very early (with the result being a shorter course) or very late. Of course, it is also possible that the 6,400 number given in the early Annual Guides was simply an estimate, and that the real yardage did not change until the late 1920's. If the work done was later, that would create some doubt in my mind if Raynor was involved, as it would have been after his death. But the history of Banks completing Raynor designs certainly does not rule out the possibility.
Sven
-
So...FIVE Raynors in Monterey !? Cypress Point, Monterey Peninsula and...??
From the 4 January 1926 New York Sun:
(http://psychobunny.smugmug.com/photos/i-cZ2czZp/0/L/i-cZ2czZp-L.png)
-
So...FIVE Raynors in Monterey !? Cypress Point, Monterey Peninsula and...??
From the 4 January 1926 New York Sun:
(http://psychobunny.smugmug.com/photos/i-cZ2czZp/0/L/i-cZ2czZp-L.png)
Other Raynor California Design Onlys:
Olympic Club
Santa Barbara CC
Sequoyah CC
-
I think you need to put a red asterisk next to Minnesota Valley. According to their own club history, there is no evidence that Mr. Raynor designed to course.
And, as Jeff Shelman noted above, your list is still missing
Midland Hills Country Club (Roseville, Minnesota)
Somerset Country Club (Mendota Heights, Minnesota)
Dan
-
Lake Wales CC needs to be added. Also,
I am curious if there is any documentation of any kind that Raynor built Babson Park and if so, please point me in the direction of where I can see it.
-
Westchester Hills is definitely not a Raynor design.
Per their website the course was designed by the first head pro there, Peter Clark, with "influence" from Donald Ross.
-
Westchester Hills is definitely not a Raynor design.
Per their website the course was designed by the first head pro there, Peter Clark, with "influence" from Donald Ross.
As the notation says, Raynor drew up plans for Westchester Hills. Whether parts of those plans were adopted is unknown.
It is one of several courses listed where his work was "Design Only."
-
Found this article in the New York Tribune from September 19, 1920 relating to Raynor designing one hole after winning a contest for a Newport RI course.
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p643/jrbgolfs/a392790e-96de-443e-a8ea-d6c17a0e6140_zps8eee4adf.jpg)
-
I think you need to put a red asterisk next to Minnesota Valley. According to their own club history, there is no evidence that Mr. Raynor designed to course.
Dan:
I'll let you take that one up with Mr. Shefchik and Mr. Shelman.
Sven
-
Lake Wales CC needs to be added. Also,
I am curious if there is any documentation of any kind that Raynor built Babson Park and if so, please point me in the direction of where I can see it.
Rees,
See this thread on Babson Park. The consensus seems to be that the club name was Crooked Lake. The aerial at the bottom looks definitively Raynor-esqe.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=58228
-
Found this article in the New York Tribune from September 19, 1920 relating to Raynor designing one hole after winning a contest for a Newport RI course.
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p643/jrbgolfs/a392790e-96de-443e-a8ea-d6c17a0e6140_zps8eee4adf.jpg)
I am not sure about the accuracy of this article; it's possible the writer did not understand what he was writing about given the limited scope.
My understanding is that "Raynor's Prize Dogleg" was a hole also built at Lido [hole 6] ... and I believe it was an adaptation of one of the runners-up in the famous 1914 Country Life competition that Dr. MacKenzie won. There were a total of three holes from that competition actually used at Lido ... a version of Tom Simpson's entry was also employed, as the 15th hole I believe. The author of the above article might not have understood all that, and concluded that Raynor only "designed" one hole on the course, instead of nine [or zero, depending on how you look at templates!].
-
Lake Wales CC needs to be added. Also,
I am curious if there is any documentation of any kind that Raynor built Babson Park and if so, please point me in the direction of where I can see it.
Rees,
See this thread on Babson Park. The consensus seems to be that the club name was Crooked Lake. The aerial at the bottom looks definitively Raynor-esqe.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=58228
I have posted in that thread and have worked with Scott Edwards (heading up the Florida Historical Golf Trail & probably one of the most knowledgeable people on Florida's golf history) and neither of us have seen any article, drawing, etc that points to Raynor designing Babson Park/Crooked Lake.
-
I think you need to put a red asterisk next to Minnesota Valley. According to their own club history, there is no evidence that Mr. Raynor designed to course.
Dan:
I'll let you take that one up with Mr. Shefchik and Mr. Shelman.
Sven
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/03A91849-21FD-4D68-AF57-6A4073F0989C_zpsyw1vquat.jpg)
I will update this later with the title and date of Minnesota Valley's course history.
It's "Minnesota Valley Country Club: From Farms to Fairways [sound familiar to anyone?] ... A Narrative History, 1923-1991," by Laraine Tracy.
Of course, it's possible that some lost documents have come to light in the past 23 years.
-
Dan, Laraine Tracy is the mother of Mike Tracy, our longtime head pro at Stillwater Country Club. The Tracys were from Bloomington, and Mike's mother and father were members of the club for decades. I read her book while preparing my chapter on Minnesota Golf Club in From Fields to Fairways. It was a start, but as you can tell from the preamble, her historical facts were not always deadly accurate -- she skipped over Interlachen, which opened in 1911, White Bear yacht Club, which started golf in 1912, Glenwood, which opened in 1916, and Somerset, which opened in 1919; in addition, The Golden Valley Golf Club started play in 1917, and Hillcrest in 1921. I'm not nitpicking here -- her book was very informative and helped me greatly in writing the Minnesota Valley history, but historical research was not Laraine Tracy's specialty.
I spoke to head pro Rob Hary and superintendent Mike Brower a few years ago, and they told me they'd consulted with George Bahto, who included it on his list of Raynor courses, though he did not cite specific evidence. Golf Course Architect Ron Forse toured the course and concluded it was a Raynor. It is just as likely that the design was done by Ralph Barton, with his Minnesota connections, or possibly Charles Banks, but the features that remain have a strong Raynor influence. That's all we really know at this point; I think an asterisk is justified, but maybe not a red one.
-
Another Raynor for the list?
St. Louis Post-Dispatch June 14, 1912 -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Forest%20Park%20-%20St.%20Louis%20Post-Dispatch%20June%2014%201912_zps71iuuitr.png)
St. Louis Star and Times June 15, 1912 -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Forest%20Park%20-%20St.%20Louis%20Star%20and%20Times%20June%2015%201912_zpskixcpqda.png)
-
Rumson is not ... Travis and Barker
Shapes on couple of greens may fool you in person, but history was well recorded in NY times.
-
With Forest Park being in 1912, would that make it Raynor's first solo design?
-
I think it does Mike. I believe Westhampton is 1914 or 1915..
-
I think it does Mike. I believe Westhampton is 1914 or 1915..
Mark-I think Westhampton is 1914.
-
A lot to noodle on in these articles.
The plans for Forest Park were supervised by Commissioner Davis with assistance from a golf advisory board made up of representatives of a number of St. Louis clubs, including SLCC. Its not hard to imagine CBM having a role in recommending Raynor for the work and how his name got to Davis.
The articles seem to note a conceived routing, even going so far as to note the locations of certain holes. I have no idea if the course as built followed these plans.
I've been told that Robert Foulis later claimed responsibility for Forest Park, but did he claim responsibility for the design or for the construction work? If the latter, its not hard to imagine how many of the MacRaynor touches (bunker scale, green sizes, etc.) did not make its way onto the ground. It may have been his first design, but it probably wasn't the first Raynor course in the same way a course built under his supervision would have been.
Why, so many years later, did Irwin's team add in some MacRaynor templates when they redid the course?
-
I've been working on a list of history books from golf clubs CB/Raynor designed or worked on. I'd appreciated any feedback from Mr. Bahto or anyone else who might have compiled a similar list.
Mine is in excel spreadsheet form, and I'd be happy to share it with anyone who emails me at michael.wolf.usa@zf.com
Best regards,
Michael
-
A lot to noodle on in these articles.
The plans for Forest Park were supervised by Commissioner Davis with assistance from a golf advisory board made up of representatives of a number of St. Louis clubs, including SLCC. Its not hard to imagine CBM having a role in recommending Raynor for the work and how his name got to Davis.
The articles seem to note a conceived routing, even going so far as to note the locations of certain holes. I have no idea if the course as built followed these plans.
I've been told that Robert Foulis later claimed responsibility for Forest Park, but did he claim responsibility for the design or for the construction work? If the latter, its not hard to imagine how many of the MacRaynor touches (bunker scale, green sizes, etc.) did not make its way onto the ground. It may have been his first design, but it probably wasn't the first Raynor course in the same way a course built under his supervision would have been.
Why, so many years later, did Irwin's team add in some MacRaynor templates when they redid the course?
Sven, great question on why Irwin’s group did the templates. I’ve played forest park a hundred times before and after the renovation and I never remembered any templates before other than a Biarritz green. I assumed they wanted to pay homage to St. Louis cc. Now on one of the nines I can see an alps hole, squared greens, the Biarritz, and a hole matching one at slcc called Blind. Maybe they knew something of the history. In reading the articles description of where it would start and end it matches almost exactly with how the course used to be routed. But no longer. Could be that Foulis used his routing but not his design theories
-
FWIW, Wikipedia has Raynors first course at 1914. Doesn't say which one
-
Forest Park would unequivocally be Raynor's first solo design.
Now, first original design, not renovating and existing layout, is most likely Westhampton CC, but there is a noticeable amount of Macdonald in that design, that is also missing many of Raynor's trademark features, such as a thumbprint or horseshoe in the Short Hole green..
For the research I compiled for the Shoreacres book, I believe the first true Raynor course to open was the first nine holes at Mountain Lake 1-6-16-18 of the current routing, in 1917. Blind Brook was bunkered a year after Raynor left so I don't consider that a true Raynor. I also see a lot of Macdonald in that design. Shoreacres and CC Fairfield opened the same month in 1921. The Raynor routing for Shoreacres dates to 1917, construction delayed by the First World War.
-
CC Fairfield website, and other history in town says Oliver Jennings left Brooklawn in 1914 and hired Raynor that year, but it took 7 years (!) to haul in the fill to build CCF, to 1921. Its been touched a lot by Tillinghast, and RTJ, maybe others. On a GCA thread about Biarritz holes, I posted a picture of the old Biarritz there, that they abandoned, the greensite of which is still intact in the middle of what is now 10th fairway. Bummer.....
-
Add Blind Brook (Purchase/Rye Brook NY - 1917) to the list that the thread/SveN had developed as of Post #53... perhaps the most unique, unstudied, unheralded Raynor out there.
cheers vk
-
Add Blind Brook (Purchase/Rye Brook NY - 1917) to the list that the thread/SveN had developed as of Post #53... perhaps the most unique, unstudied, unheralded Raynor out there.
cheers vk
VK-I met a guy a number of years ago that told me that back in the day(1950,60,70,s) that everyone wanted to be in the caddie ranks at Blind Brook as it was double the rate or noticeably more than the surrounding clubs in Westchester and Fairfield Counties. I wonder if that is accurate or semi-accurate? Although I know you don't go back to the 50's and 60's you have a tremendous amount of insight into the caddie operations at said clubs. Thank you.
-
Add Blind Brook (Purchase/Rye Brook NY - 1917) to the list that the thread/SveN had developed as of Post #53... perhaps the most unique, unstudied, unheralded Raynor out there.
cheers vk
VK -
That list contained in post #53 (which was first posted much earlier in the thread) was a list of courses to be added to the list contained in post #2, which does contain Blind Brook. Between the two you get a fairly comprehensive account.
Sven
-
Blind Brook's caddie fees are not at the top of the Fairfield County group, from what caddies have told me, and I played there about two months ago.
If you were to walk Blind Brook, much like Westhampton, you would recognize certain Raynor features but I doubt you would come off the course thinking it was a pure Raynor design. Unlike, CC Fairfield which just eviscerated portions of the layout including abandoning the Biarritz as Rick pointed out.
Blind Brook appears to only have had minimal alterations over the years. According to the club history, member Findlay Douglas and a pro whose name escapes me at this moment, was in charge of putting in all the fairway bunkers. I suspect he did some greenside ones as well, since they do not appear to be like any Raynor bunkers I have seen.
You can see a 1934 aerial of the course through the state of Connecticut website. There was also a private course that bordered Blind Brook at the time and I've never found any info on it. It does not appear to be a Raynor.
Scroll down for the 1934 button... http://magic.lib.uconn.edu/mash_up/aerial_index.html
AP
-
Wasn't just any pro, the guy was George Low.
If the private course you're talking about is the one below Blind Brook on the aerial, the properties to the south of Blind Brook when the land was purchased belonged to Richard Croker Jr. and Irving Lehmann.
Sven
-
Sven,
Nice find on the Forest Park course!
Here is an article from The Evening Post-January 7, 1916 describing Findlay Douglas, Raynor and Donald Ross examining the land at Blind Brook.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/7A3FBABC-12FA-4794-8C73-8F3D53939236_zpspx7w8jg0.jpg)
Tony,
Regarding the bunkering of the course, wasn't Findlay Douglas a good friend of C.B. Macdonald? Douglas was part of the committee that helped Macdonald when he was building the National Golf Links. Wouldn't he be a perfect person to recommend placement of the bunkers on the course? Wasn't Findlay Douglas also responsible for bunkering Nassau and Greenwich as well? Macdonald mentioned that Lido was never as great as it could have been, because no one was there to watch the course and make recommendations on how to improve the course. To Macdonald, it seems the ideal course could only be attained over time, under a watchful eye.
I don't feel like the placing of bunkers by Findlay really takes away from the architects intent, especially when the person placing them knows the architects intent or philosophy. Of course, that is just my opinion.
Bret
-
Bret:
Douglas did know Macdonald but what does that have to do with bunkering? I knew Geoffrey Cornish and wouldn't bunker a course they way he would.
TO my eye the fairway and some greenside bunkering at Blind Brook is no way indicative of Raynor in placement or style. The fact that Raynor had no input in the placement of the bunkers, the bunkers were located after the course was played for a year or so and members had input where the hazards would be placed means to me it is not a 100 percent Raynor golf course.
Douglas was an original member of NGLA, I believe, but I've never known it that he had an active role in the design. I can't speak to his bunkering of Greenwich but the research the club has seems to indicate that Macdonald, with Raynor on the ground, rebunkered that course and made little or no alterations to greens.
Sven, I'll bite, who are Richard Croker Jr. and Irving Lehmann?
-
No idea, but if you want to start looking into whose private course that was, those are good names to start with.
-
Bret:
Douglas did know Macdonald but what does that have to do with bunkering? I knew Geoffrey Cornish and wouldn't bunker a course they way he would.
TO my eye the fairway and some greenside bunkering at Blind Brook is no way indicative of Raynor in placement or style. The fact that Raynor had no input in the placement of the bunkers, the bunkers were located after the course was played for a year or so and members had input where the hazards would be placed means to me it is not a 100 percent Raynor golf course.
Douglas was an original member of NGLA, I believe, but I've never known it that he had an active role in the design. I can't speak to his bunkering of Greenwich but the research the club has seems to indicate that Macdonald, with Raynor on the ground, rebunkered that course and made little or no alterations to greens.
Sven, I'll bite, who are Richard Croker Jr. and Irving Lehmann?
Tony,
Sometimes I wish Cornish let you bunker a few courses around CT!
I agree that what's on the ground isn't 100% Raynor, if he didn't bunker it, or if it wasn't built with his blessing.
The question it raises for me is whether it was the architects intent to wait a few years to place the bunkers? If it wasn't the architects intent, then why didn't he build the bunkers before they grassed the course?
I understand your point of view about qualifying it as not 100% Raynor. I just get the feeling that when people mention Raynor not bunkering the course in his original plans it's viewed in a negative connotation. Wasn't waiting a few years to bunker part of their philosophy? (At least on some of their courses?).
I realize some courses may have suffered because they were perhaps misled or not led at all, but you and VK have been raving about Blind Brook, so they must have done something right and being not 100% Raynor may be part of it?
I was not trying to say Findlay Douglas was an architect or even helped design NGLA. I was pointing out that he was one of the well respected Amateur Champions who was by Macdonalds side during the formation of his club from start to finish and many years after that!
I guess my point is that I would have felt very comfortable leaving the bunker placement in the hands of Findlay Douglas on a Macdonald or Raynor design in 1916!
Bret
-
I swear I have never bunkered a Cornish layout!
I don't rave about Blind Brook. I think it's worth seeing, but it in no way approaches Raynor's best layouts. It has a really weird Redan that I haven't been able to determine if it was modified or the original.
It was not Raynor's intent to wait a year, but rather the club's, according to their history book. Other than Blind Brook, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a Raynor design that where he waited a year or two to bunker it.
-
Now all we need is someone to take all this great info and sift it all into one definitive list!!
-
I'm close, Jack. Give me a little more time.
T
-
While Anthony's working on his list, here's all of the courses noted in this thread.
Let me know if there are any corrections.
Augusta CC Lake Course aka Bon-Air Vanderbilt Hotel GC (Augusta, GA), 1925
Babson Park Golf & Yacht Club aka Crooked Lake Golf & Yacht Club (Babson Park, FL), 1920
Bellport GC (Bellport, NY), 1915
Berwind Porto (Puerto Rico), ??
Blind Brook Club (Purchase, NY), 1916
Blowing Rock CC aka Green Park-Norwood GC (Blowing Rock, NC), 1923
Blue Mound CC (Milwaukee, WI), 1924
Brookville CC (Glen Head, NY), 1921
Camargo Club (Cincinnati, OH), 1923
Charleston, CC of (Charleston, SC), 1924
Chicago GC (Wheaton, IL), 1921
Coral Keys Club (Englewood, FL), 1923 – Design Only
Cow Neck CC (Southampton, NY), 1922 – Design Only
Cragin Park GC (Palm Beach, FL), 1925 - Design Only
Crawford CC (Crawford, NY), 1923
Creek Club (Locust Valley, NY), 1922
Cypress Point Club (Pebble Beach, CA), 1925 – Design Only
Dedham Country & Polo Club (Dedham, MA), 1923
Deepdale GC (Great Neck, NY), 1925
Edward S. Moore Estate GC (Roslyn, NY), 1924
Elkridge Hunt Club (Baltimore, MD), 1923
Essex County CC East Course (West Orange, NJ), 1925
Essex Fells CC (Essex Fells, NJ), 1923
Everglades Club (Palm Beach, FL), 1919 & 1924
Fairfield, CC of (Fairfield, CT), 1914 & 1921
Fishers Island GC (Fishers Island, NY), 1925
Fishers Island GC Second Course (Fishers Island, NY), 1925 - Design Only
Forest Park GC (St. Louis, MO), 1912
Fox Chapel GC (Pittsburgh, PA), 1923
Gardiner’s Bay CC (Gardiner’s Bay, NY), 1915
Gibson Island GC (Gibson Island, MD), 1921
Gibson Island GC Second Course (Gibson Island, MD), 1921 - Design Only
Grand Hotel GC (??), 1920’s
Greenbrier No. 1 Course (White Sulphur Springs, WV), 1913 & 1922
Greenbrier No. 3 Course (White Sulphur Springs, WV), 1921
Greenwich CC (Greenwich, CT), 1915
Hay Harbor Club (Fishers Island, NY), c. 1918 - Design Only
Hollywood GC (Deal, NJ),??
Hotchkiss School (Lakeville, CT), 1923
J. P. Knapp Estate Course (Southampton, NY), 1920’s
Knollwood CC (Elmswood, NY), 1925
Lake Wales Municipal GC (Lake Wales, FL), 1925
Lido GC (Long Beach, NY), 1914
Links Club (Roslyn, NY), 1918
Lookout Mountain GC (Lookout Mountain, GA), 1925
Maidstone Club (East Hampton, NY), 1916 & 1922
Metairie GC (New Orleans, LA), 1921
Mid Ocean Club (Bermuda)
Mid Pacific CC aka Kailua CC (Honolulu, HI), 1925
Midland Hills CC (St. Paul, MN), 1919
Minnesota Valley CC (Bloomington, MN), 1921
Misquamicut GC (Westerly, RI), 1913
Monterrey Peninsula CC Dunes Course (Pebble Beach, CA), 1924
Monterrey Peninsula CC Shore Course (Pebble Beach, CA), 1924 – Design Only
Morris County GC (Morristown, NJ), 1916
Mountain Lake Club (Lake Wales, FL), 1915 & 1920
Nassau CC (Glen Cove, NY), 1915
North Palm Beach CC aka Palm Beach Winter Club (North Palm Beach, FL), 1925
North Shore CC aka Glenwood CC (Glen Head, NY), 1914 & 1923
Oakland GC (Bayside, NY), 1919
Ocean Links aka T. Suffern Tailer Private Course (Newport, RI), 1919
Oheka GC aka Cold Spring Harbor CC aka Otto Kahn Estate Course (Cold Spring Harbor, NY), 1922
Olympic Club (San Francisco, CA), 1917 – Design Only
Payne Whitney Estate Course aka Greentree Course (Manhasset, NY), 1915
Piping Rock Club (Locust Valley, NY), 1911
Porto Rico CC aka Condado GC (Puerto Rico), 1919
Riddles Bay G&CC (Bermuda), ??
Rock Spring CC (West Orange, NJ), 1925
Roselle GC (Roselle, NJ), 1925
Santa Barbara CC (Santa Barbara, CA), 1917 – Design Only
Sequoyah CC (Oakland, CA), 1917 – Consultation
Shinnecock Hills GC (Southampton, NY), 1915
Shoreacres GC (Lake Bluff, IL), 1916
Sleepy Hollow CC (Scarboro-On-Hudson, NY), 1911
Somerset CC (St. Paul, MN), 1919
Southampton GC (Southampton, NY), 1925
Statesville CC (Statesville, NC), 1926
St. Louis CC (St. Louis, MO), 1912
Suffolk CC (Bellport, NY), 1915 – Consultation
Sunningdale CC (Scarsdale, NY), 1916
Taft School (Watertown, CT), 1923
Thousand Islands Club (Alexandria Bay, NY), 1922
Waialae CC (Honolulu, HI), 1925
Wanumetonomy CC (Middleton, RI), 1921 & 1923
Westhampton CC (Westhampton, NY), 1914
William E. Stauffer Estate GC (New Orleans, LA), 1921
Women’s National G&CC aka Glen Head CC (Glen Head, NY), 1922
Yale University GC (New Haven, CT), 1923
Yale University GC Second Course (New Haven, CT), 1923 – Design Only
Yeamans Hall CC (Charleston, SC), 1925
Yeamans Hall CC Second Course (Charleston, SC), 1925 - Design Only
-
Sven,
Should the Taft School course be on there?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58371.msg1371315.html#msg1371315
-
Sven,
I also seem to remember a second routing for Yeamans Hall hanging at the club?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61040.msg1448535.html#msg1448535
-
Taft School for sure.
Fishers also had a second routing that I think was close to being built. The Olmsted plans have alterations that occurred after Raynor died, which makes me think Banks was involved. My feeling is that Yale was never really intended to be 36 but that Raynor gave the university two routings to choose from, but I could be dead wrong.
I honestly don't know how to post photos anymore since Photobucket won't let me do it, otherwise I would try and put up the Fishers photo.
Oh, and speaking of Fishers, I recently found a July 1897 newspaper article that has Thomas Bendelow visiting Fishers to lay out nine holes. If they were built that means Hay Harbor had golf course earlier than what was previously thought. Raynor also laid out a course for Hay Harbor about seven years before Fishers Island Club began construction, but it was never built.
-
I swear I have never bunkered a Cornish layout!
I don't rave about Blind Brook. I think it's worth seeing, but it in no way approaches Raynor's best layouts. It has a really weird Redan that I haven't been able to determine if it was modified or the original.
It was not Raynor's intent to wait a year, but rather the club's, according to their history book. Other than Blind Brook, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a Raynor design that where he waited a year or two to bunker it.
I do rave about it, because its fun golf... because it is largely untouched...because it's template holes are unique takes on the standards we have come to appreciate...
As to caddies (someone asked)... in my 35 years of experience, it only sees 4000-5000 rounds a year...there's only 12-15 regular caddies (they call up anyone of a dozen nearby courses to fill out for the rare bigger event)... and the clientele/membership is made up of the heaviest hitters you can find, so the money flows nicely for that handful. In the 80s, it was literally caddie by appointment...the caddiemaster (no pro for many years)...you were rang a day or three before.
AP...do you have access to that club history...I'd like to examine it, if there is a way.
cheers vk
-
VK
Email me about the Blind Brook history, AnthonyPioppi@gmail.com
By the way, the club has a golf pro again, first time I think since the 1950s.
AP
-
Do we think Bendelow is responsible for Hay Harbor?
-
Mike:
Not sure. I need to check with Pierce Rafferty at the museum on Fishers Island. He wrote the Hay Harbor Club history. (I can't find my copy). The course that is there now is definitely not Bendelow's and Pierce has established who designed it.
AP
-
Do we think Bendelow is responsible for Hay Harbor?
There was golf on Fishers Island at least as early as 1898.
From all account the Hay Harbor Club wasn't founded until 1902. It is possible the club was founded after the course (most likely associated with a hotel) was built.
Sven
-
There was a course in Puerto Rico designed by Raynor in 1919. The course was called the Porto Rico Country Club when it opened and later called Condado Golf Club. This course was associated with the Condado-Vanderbilt Hotel. The hotel still exists today, but the course is long gone due to heavy development. The advertisements of the day mentioned the course was located near the hotel on land between the ocean and the bay.
As early as 1922, the course was referred to as Condado Golf Club in the golf guides.
The 1922-1929 American Annual Golf Guide lists one course in Puerto Rico at the time and it was Condado Golf Club. Established in 1918, 9 holes, length of 3,210 yards, Par 36 with sand greens, 3 miles from the city. Directly below this listing was an advertisement for the Condado-Vanderbilt Hotel every year.
In the 1930-1931 American Annual Golf Guide there is also only one listing for Puerto Rico, but it is Berwind Country Club. Berwind was established in 1930, had 9 holes, length of 3,035 yards, Par 35, with sand greens, 8 miles from the city. No advertisements for the hotel included this year.
I don't know a lot about the history of these two courses, but they sound like they were two separate entities.
The first article below is from The Buffalo Express-September 6, 1919 mentioning the new Condado-Vanderbilt hotel, with a paragraph on the course and Raynor. The article is in column 6 about half way down the page.
The second clip below is from Golfer's Magazine-September 1920 (page 21) showing the "Beautiful Porto Rico Country Club at San Juan". One of the pictures shows the Condado-Vanderbilt hotel and mentions the course is in connection with the hotel.
https://tinyurl.com/ (https://tinyurl.com/ybwq93ca)
https://tinyurl.com/yakgb3gr (https://tinyurl.com/yakgb3gr)
-
Two more quick clips on Raynors travels to Puerto Rico:
The Port Jefferson Echo-April 5, 1919:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/0C332DE0-34E1-4BDD-AF62-9A8360ABCB89_zps7jpbpgcj.jpg)
The East Hampton Star-April 25, 1919
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/AEABDCA4-0F4D-42FA-A27F-89A7A36E0021_zpsbav5nx3b.jpg)
There was a prior article from March 14, 1919 mentioning Seth J. Raynor had left for Puerto Rico, but it didn't mention a golf course.
-
How about a definitive list of Raynor golf hole designs? Thinking there are about 25.
-
The listing for Harry Payne Whitney's estate in Manhasset is confusing. Harry Payne Whitney owned an estate in Old Westbury called "The Manse". It was his father William C. Whitney's estate before he inherited it.
Harry Payne Whitney's brother William Payne Whitney, was better known as Payne Whitney after he dropped William from his name. Payne Whitney owned "The Greentree Estate" in Manhasset.
In Scotland's Gift Golf, Macdonald states on pages 305:
"When Payne Whitney proposed building an eighteen-hole golf course on his property at Manhasset there was plenty of room, but the land was not adapted to it, and I persuaded him to build a nine-hole course and to build it on some twenty or thirty acres immediately back of his home. I grouped three classic holes in the center of the land which had to be played at different angles. In this way it was perfectly simple to get nine good holes on a small acreage."
If you search "The Greentree Estate" on a modern aerial, you can still make out the greens and bunkers. Some of the greens appear to be very well defined. The estate is located north of Deepdale Country Club.
I don't know if there is information on a separate course for Harry P. Whitney, or if the wrong Whitney was listed for the Manhasset course?
-
Bret:
I think you're spot on with regards to the H. P. and William Payne issue. Bahto has this as H. P., but all other references I've seen are to just Payne Whitney.
Sven
-
Bret:
I think you're spot on with regards to the H. P. and William Payne issue. Bahto has this as H. P., but all other references I've seen are to just Payne Whitney.
A 1951 Golfdom article notes Greentree as being on the estate of John Hay Whitney, who was the son of Payne Whitney, amongst other things.
Sven
-
The Aug. 3, 1923 edition of the East Hampton Star notes Raynor being called to California to work on a course.
This seems early for the MPCC and Cypress work. Anyone have any thoughts as to what course this might have been?
-
Sven,
I don't know the answer to that, but it could have been a few possibilities. Tony posted about Raynor working at Pebble Beach about a year ago, but the article didn't mention specific dates and the article itself was from 1927. One of Raynor's obituaries in 1926 noted that he built a course for California University? George had mentioned a course in Santa Barbara and Sequoyah as possibilities, but I have never seen any information confirming Raynor was there.
There is also an article from 1918 mentioning that Mrs. Raynor was heading to Los Angeles where her husband is laying out a golf course. We know his trip to Olympic fell around that time, but I had never heard of anything in Los Angeles?
It sure would be helpful to have access to some older California newspapers!
Bret
-
The Los Angeles reference was from The East Hampton Star-June 14, 1918:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/F488766D-186D-4E0C-A884-FC868599F9AD_zpssewgbssp.jpg)
-
Sick and Wicked Man - did someone say you had a book out?
-
One of the courses on the list, North Palm Beach CC aka Palm Beach Winter Club, is one I'd like to revisit.
The EoG cites this as a Raynor and notes it as his last design, but if you look at the newspaper accounts from that time credit is given to William Langford.
Philadelphia Inquirer - Jan. 11, 1925
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Palm%20Beach%20Winter%20Club%20-%20Philadelphia%20Inquirer%20Jan.%2011%201925_zpsebhubiuz.png)
Palm Beach Post - March 26, 1925
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Palm%20Beach%20Winter%20Club%20-%20Palm%20Beach%20Post%20March%2026%201925_zpszyjz1u7p.png)
The timing of these articles, early 1925, suggests the course was not the same course noted as the reason for Raynor's early 1926 visit to Palm Beach, and the organizers associated with the club are not Paris Singer.
Instead, it seems more likely that Raynor was visiting Palm Beach in connection with the plans for a different course that was being constructed for Paris Singer, that being the course to be located in the Cragin Park area of Palm Beach.
Palm Beach Post - Dec. 20, 1925
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Cragin%20Park%20-%20Palm%20Beach%20Post%20Dec.%2020%201925_zpsaivmumqk.png)
Evening Post - March 12, 1926
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Charles%20Banks%20-%20Evening%20Post%20March%2012%201926_zpse0ouudxl.png)
The course at Cragin Park was to be built in connection with Singer's plans for his Blue Heron Hotel which would be located just across a new causeway on Singer Island (you can see the Blue Heron Hotel noted on the plan above with the road in question now being named Blue Heron Boulevard). The Blue Heron Hotel project did get underway, but Singer's misfortunes resulted in a cessation of construction, with the bones of the partially constructed building remaining for quite some time.
http://historicpalmbeach.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2010/09/02/test/
So to sum up, Raynor never had anything to do with North Palm Beach aka Palm Beach Winter Club. Instead, he was working on the Cragin Park course, work that was interrupted by his death and later completed (at the least the lay out on the ground) by Banks.
-
To make all of this even more confusing, Scott Edwards of the Florida Historic Golf Trail sent on a map of the course Langford built in Kelsey City (which we know as the Kelsey City Golf Course) which designates that course as the Palm Beach Winter Club.
So strike much of the last post, as both Langford and Raynor may have built courses known as the Winter Club, they were just different courses.
-
Should Watchung Valley Golf Club be added to the list, formerly Twin Brooks Country Club?
https://www.watchungvalleygc.com/history/
Does anyone have any information on the Crawford Country Club in Crawford, NY?
This course is listed in the Cornish & Whitten book, but I can't find any articles on the course or determine where the course was located. Any help would be appreciated.
-
Sven,
I noticed you have a question mark for the date of Riddle's Bay. This article discusses the formal opening of the course in early February 1922.
The New York Herald-February 12, 1922:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/9125833F-EF47-44C3-83AD-22B1E58D6426_zpsnexyczvn.jpg)
Does anyone know the proper spelling of this course? This article mentions Riddle's Bay, but the modern maps call the area Riddell's Bay?
Bret
-
A lot to noodle on in these articles.
The plans for Forest Park were supervised by Commissioner Davis with assistance from a golf advisory board made up of representatives of a number of St. Louis clubs, including SLCC. Its not hard to imagine CBM having a role in recommending Raynor for the work and how his name got to Davis.
The articles seem to note a conceived routing, even going so far as to note the locations of certain holes. I have no idea if the course as built followed these plans.
I've been told that Robert Foulis later claimed responsibility for Forest Park, but did he claim responsibility for the design or for the construction work? If the latter, its not hard to imagine how many of the MacRaynor touches (bunker scale, green sizes, etc.) did not make its way onto the ground. It may have been his first design, but it probably wasn't the first Raynor course in the same way a course built under his supervision would have been.
Why, so many years later, did Irwin's team add in some MacRaynor templates when they redid the course?
So Ryan Hillenbrand and I played there a few weeks ago. A few thoughts that I had.
1. The map of the original routing in a clubhouse magazine closely follows the description in the article.
2. The magazine article states that the city representatives wanted to design the course themselves. They went to NY, Chicago, and Pittsburgh and returned ready to get started. Davis convinced them to “design” the course, but let Robert Foulis construct the course.
3. I can find no contemporary mention of Robert Foulis in conjunction with the course.
4. The current 6th is a par three with a swale in the middle of an elongated green (Biarritz.) This seems to have predated the Irwin Group restoration. The green might be similar on a 1968 aerial as well. Hard to tell
5. The current 9th has a “Long/Hell” bunker complex that existed in 1968
6. The current 12th has and had some “Leven” tendencies.
7. Finally, the recently posted WPA list mentioned Forest Park as having government funds spent on the golf course in 1935. I’d love to know if they had an actual golf course architect
A sporty course and a fun day. Was it a Raynor design? It is certainly within the realm of possibility.
-
This is from the April 5th, 1921 edition of the Miami News;
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4794/40717176612_8a3fa119d9_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2533b3q)
Adams was fascinating character. He was by no means a "hotel man," nor was Raynor. He was an author and an inventor, but he had the golf bug. He once wrote a book about golf, and he played golf at Hastings on the Hudson the day he died later on in 1921. He went to The Bahamas twice before this in 1921. I have no idea what he and Raynor were up to, but its an interesting trip nevertheless.