Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on November 19, 2012, 10:38:59 PM
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if you prefer lush green fairways to firm & fast brownish/yellowish/greenish fairways.
You won't like Seminole if you think hitting marginal shots that land on the green shouldn't be punished.
You won't like Seminole if you don't like playing in strong winds.
You won't like Seminole if you think a course should have deep rough
You won't like Seminole if you prefer narrow fairways.
You won't like Seminole if you don't like greens where you can't get a repair tool into the turf.
You won't like Seminole if you like to play in 4+ hours
You won't like Seminole if you don't like big, expansive greenside bunkers that are fed by the perimeters of the greens.
On the other hand, if you're like me, you'll love the golf course. it has to be one of the greatest member courses in the world.
Some say it's easy.
I'll bet them on shooting their handicap on a typical day (wind) under medal play conditions with just resonably competitive hole locations.
I think the course is 2 to 4 shots harder than your handicap.
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I think the average golfer hasn't even heard of Seminole. The average golfer is more likely to prefer the lush green fairways, so maybe it's best to keep them away until they learn ;)
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Connor,
You've got a point.
Seminole is an educational experience and an acquired taste for some
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Could we please stop accusing the average golfer of being stupid. They all know of Seminole. They would all love to be a member of such a course. They simply can not afford to be a member or don't have the access so many of us enjoy. You guys, including me, aren't that much smarter than your brothers who play the munis.
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I'm guessing you just played Seminole again.
How'd you score?
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Better members course...Seminole or Garden City?
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Could we please stop accusing the average golfer of being stupid. They all know of Seminole. They would all love to be a member of such a course. They simply can not afford to be a member or don't have the access so many of us enjoy. You guys, including me, aren't that much smarter than your brothers who play the munis.
I'm not accusing the average golfer of being stupid. My father, for example, had not heard of the course until I had pointed out that members were on the sheet at TOC. Seminole tries to stay under the radar, so it's not a surprise that the average golfer has not heard of it. Heck, my dad hadn't heard of NGLA until last winter break and the course wasn't in the original Golf Magazine Top 100 list. Neither was Sunningdale, New South Wales, and Royal Portrush.
The average golfer (especially if from the US) is also more likely to play nicer courses that are lush and green. The nicest course he is likely to see on television (Augusta) is the greenest of the bunch, so he's likely to associate that with great courses.
For the record, the only courses I've played that are listed above are TOC and NSW. I have been incredibly lucky to have seen these courses, but I don't come close to having the connections to get onto these more exclusive clubs.
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Pat,
I like greens with internal contour.
I like holes that are designed to be interesting in all types of wind.
I like tempting options.
Would I like Seminole?
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Wow, something we can agree on. Sounds like a course to love.
The attributes you list are very close to the way I'd describe many links courses in the UK, and that is good.
Re the strong wind, how strong is it? From nearby weather stations it seems to be calm about 10 to14% of the time and the average wind speed over the last 10 years is around 9 mph. Maybe 30% of the time the wind is between 10 and 15 mph. I assume that for your bet that you are talking about the 30% of the time that it is 10 to 15 mph.
Re the course being 2 to 4 shots harder than my handicap, what does that mean? Are you suggesting that the course rating and slope are too low, or that my course's rating and slope are too high? Would my handicap index go up by 2 to 4 shots if I was a member there?
Re the bet, I have no basis to say it's easy, but I'd be happy to take you up on the bet if you can arrange access for my trial. Of course, you've stacked the deck in that, if my index is legitimate, then there is likely only a 20% chance of shooting to my handicap in any individual round according to the Pope of Slope. Perhaps you should offer 5 to 1 odds just to make things more interesting. ;D
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The "average" Brit golfer gives a very blank look when you talk about playing Pine Valley or National. They've all heard of Pebble Beach and Augusta and possibly Pinehurst, The Stadium Course and Bethpage Black but not a lot else. Private American golf has very little interest or relevance in "normal" golfing circles. It's easy to forget we have a tiny minority interest here.
Seminole does sound like fun, I know a member so must take up his invite sometime.
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I have been fortunate enough to play Seminole.
I will be back in March next year. I will take the bet.
100US. OK?
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Re the bet, I have no basis to say it's easy, but I'd be happy to take you up on the bet if you can arrange access for my trial. Of course, you've stacked the deck in that, if my index is legitimate, then there is likely only a 20% chance of shooting to my handicap in any individual round according to the Pope of Slope. Perhaps you should offer 5 to 1 odds just to make things more interesting. ;D
Pat usually has a an angle. I too thought he was offering a Las Vegas style bet, but access has to be worth taking a wee bath.
Ciao
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Brian S.
It's not at all hard to get fast and firm in Florida as long as your members don't mind a bit of brown and yellow from time to time (particularly in the winter when the Bermuda dies). The only evergreen courses in Florida are those haunted by and catering to turistas from Europe..... :)
Brian I. et. al.
Vis a vis Pat's bets. I'll take the 5-1 odds that even the great Mucci himself can't break 80 at Seminole under his conditions, as long as he plays strictly by the Rules of Golf and we have credible witnesses. Can I suggest Tom Paul? ;)
Rich
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Some say it's easy.
Not many! And I bet none who have played it more than once.
On a single round you could get softish / slowish greens with not much wind and legitimately wonder what all the fuss is about. In those conditions it's a very good course in a great setting that rewards good shots and deals gently with poor shots.
Then there's the other 98% of the time...
Those three conditions are the primary drivers of the courses defenses: wind strength, green speed and green firmness. If one of those three are "UP", the course is sporty and fun, two of the three and the course is a real challenge that will yield some success but you'll know it's probably better than you and if all three are "UP" (as it sounds like they were for Pat) "you're gonna need a bigger boat!"
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My former head pro played several years in their annual member-club pro event. He said the hardest thing to do when the wind was up and the greens at 12-13 was keeping the ball on the green after a bunker shot. Apparently lots of ping-pong was possible, with balls feeding into another bunker.
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Based on fairly limited personal experience...I'd agree with him.
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Never played Seminole in a really stiff breeze and 17/18 were still tough.
#6 in Dan Jenkins' book from 1967 as one of America's 18 best. I made par four (two good shots, though) so, perhaps, it has slipped a little given my (non) skill level. I was a little surprised that the inward nine Par 5's played rather short although the wind was not so stiff and not directly off the ocean.
Regardless, Seminole, like NGLA, Cypress, Fishers, PV, TOC, Merion, Garden City, Maidstone et all, is a marvelous golf PLACE. I could play it every day.
Some folks say National is also "easy". If there's little/no breeze, you know the course well enough to think correctly and you have a superb short game, you'll probably score better there than at Shinnecock, Merion, PV, etc.
On the other hand, I know all about NOT having a great short game and about playing National in a stiff wind. Counter-intuitively, the Inward Nine is just as challenging DOWN wind because getting the ball to stop near the hole - especially a front hole location - is next to impossible on 6 of the nine greens.
Neither Seminole or National (or Fishers, The Creek) is "easy" if you don't have game.
Because the greens are generally less challenging, Maidstone might be a few shots easier on a calm day. However, calm days are not the norm on an ocean-side course, so.................
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"You won't like Seminole"......try me! Anyone ever need a 4th, just give me 24 hour notice. My clubs are in my trunk. ;D ;D
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My former head pro played several years in their annual member-club pro event. He said the hardest thing to do when the wind was up and the greens at 12-13 was keeping the ball on the green after a bunker shot. Apparently lots of ping-pong was possible, with balls feeding into another bunker.
Count me as one who is 100% sure he's adore Seminole.
That said, I feel like the above concern is one that's aired about courses and holes that are "overbunkered." Does anyone ever level this claim about Seminole?
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Could we please stop accusing the average golfer of being stupid. They all know of Seminole. They would all love to be a member of such a course. They simply can not afford to be a member or don't have the access so many of us enjoy. You guys, including me, aren't that much smarter than your brothers who play the munis.
Hi John.
I'm not sure how you define the "average golfer" but I doubt that the average golfer who to me is a typical muni player who plays some resort courses a few times a year and watches the PGA Tour on TV would know of Seminole. The golfers I play with don't know the course. Unless a major was played on a course they don't know many of the great private layouts. And of course, Seminole does not want to be well known by the masses.
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Played Seminole last week. Loved my day there. Stiff breeze, challenging, great conditions. As Patrick said, it is a wonderful member's course and club.
Interesting and complex routing. Great walk. Varying angles to the wind. Fun.
Bart
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Is Seminole Ross's best work or #2?
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Unless the greens are flat as pancakes 12-13 is too quick on wind exposed greens. The ball would be rolling all over the place if the breeze got above 20mph. There is a reason the R&A aim for 10.5 at the beginning of the Open Championship and our championship greens are relatively flat compared to some I've seen.
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Unless the greens are flat as pancakes 12-13 is too quick on wind exposed greens
Bingo!
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Mike Schott,
I agree with you. Not many typical, average muni golfers have heard of a place like Seminole (or NGLA, Crystal Downs, etc.) Pebble Beach, for sure, but not those highly rated gems that don't show up on television while hosting a tournament.
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Is Seminole Ross's best work or #2?
wannamoisett
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Not many typical, average muni golfers have heard of a place like Seminole (or NGLA, Crystal Downs, etc.) Pebble Beach, for sure, but not those highly rated gems that don't show up on television while hosting a tournament.
There are many of us who are not typical, average muni golfers who have heard of places like Seminole, NGLA, etc. but have not had the opportunity to play those highly rated gems. So I can't honestly say whether or not I would like Seminole. Just saying...
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Is Seminole Ross's best work or #2?
wannamoisett
Mark,
Wannamoisett is a wonderful golf course, but, Seminole is far better.
Superior to # 2 I believe.
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Is Seminole Ross's best work or #2?
I'd go with Seminole.
Especially given the choice of having to play each, every day.
The course, in combination with the wind and conditions is simply superlative.
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Unless the greens are flat as pancakes 12-13 is too quick on wind exposed greens. The ball would be rolling all over the place if the breeze got above 20mph. There is a reason the R&A aim for 10.5 at the beginning of the Open Championship and our championship greens are relatively flat compared to some I've seen.
Mark,
There really aren't any flat greens. # 5 and # 15 probably come closest to being called flat.
As to firm, I couldn't get my metal pronged ball fixer into the turf on the greens to fix slight marks.
Arthur Weber (Webber?) did a study on stimp speeds and slope.
I published/quoted the chart on another thread.
The greens at Seminole, at speed and you can fix speed based upon the caliber of golfer competing that day, are frightening in medal play.
Not that they aren't frightening in match play, but, in match play you can only lose one hole at a time.
The greens are sloped and crowned, effectively reducing their large size to about half, or 1/3 in the case of # 17.
When the PGA Tour Pros play in informal events, par is a good number.
I think the course max's out at about 6,900 from the back tees.
All of the par 5's can be easily hit in two by better players, conditions permitting.
A fellow playing in our group, who's a big hitter, hit drive 6 iron to 8 feet into # 3.
Another fellow in my group hit 9 in two.
We almost hit 14 in two and were just off the green on # 15 in two, but, that was with a wind mostly from the north, which makes holes, 1, 2, 4, 10, 11, 16 very difficult with the cross wind holes being no bargain.
On several occassions, bunker shots, hit just a little to gingerly, ran off the far side.
It's an incredibly benign looking course, until you have to play it in a 2-3 club wind, then, it exposes any weakness in any and every part of your game.
The fairways are very generous, the rough benign, but, enough to create marginal shots, and marginal shots don't fare well at Seminole.
It's simply one of the best, most challenging, most fun golf courses you could play, day in and day out.
And, it's a "golfing" membership
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Pat,
I like greens with internal contour.
I like holes that are designed to be interesting in all types of wind.
I like tempting options.
Would I like Seminole?
NO,
You'd love Seminole.
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Brian S.
It's not at all hard to get fast and firm in Florida as long as your members don't mind a bit of brown and yellow from time to time (particularly in the winter when the Bermuda dies). The only evergreen courses in Florida are those haunted by and catering to turistas from Europe..... :)
Brian,
I think the main impediment to acheiving F&F in Florida in the winter is the culture of the club.
In the summer, it's Mother Nature.
Most golf courses East of the Turnpike enjoy sandy soil and where there's sandy soil, F&F becomes easier.
Brian I. et. al.
Vis a vis Pat's bets. I'll take the 5-1 odds that even the great Mucci himself can't break 80 at Seminole under his conditions, as long as he plays strictly by the Rules of Golf and we have credible witnesses.
It's certainly not a bet that I'd jump on.
Hole locations, tee locations and wind direction and velocity would influence my decision.
What many don't realize is the influence of the wind on putting.
It buffets you as you stand over your putt and on fast greens it influences the roll of the ball, so you have to gauge pace, line and the influence of the wind.
Even a hole as simple as # 1 can be a killer, especially into a north wind.
It's so easy to leave your approach with a long putt, or to hit a marginal approach which finds a bunker or a tightly mown area leaving you a dicey recovery.
# 10 is ridiculously scarey into a north wind, especially with a left or back left hole location.
It's a short hole that extracts more than it's share in doubles, triples and higher.
Got to go, be back later.
Can I suggest Tom Paul? ;)
Rich
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A humorous story re: Seminole...
A friend of mine played Seminole many years ago and was talking to his caddy. It turns out that the caddy works Seminole in the winter and heads north to work Winged Foot in the summer.
He asked the caddy what he thought of the two clubs.
The caddy replied that the largest distinction between the two clubs was at Winged Foot the members "think" that they are rich. At Seminole, well....
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This post may show my ignorance, but so be it, I'll ask anyway.
How does Seminole compare to Timuquana in Jax? I played Timmy twice in March and was blown away. It was totally unlike what I expected for a Florida golf course. To me, it seemed more like a NC Sandhills course (albeit with far less elevation).
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:( :'( ;)
Hey guys , regarding the looper at Seminole, let it go, or better yet remove it . As a former card carrying member , I would hate to see him get in trouble, even if he should have kept his yap shut re: net worth !
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What is not to like about Seminole and this is from someone who hasn't played it. Storied history, top designer, true to original design, tough layout, great location next to ocean, avid golfing membership. Just about every possible thing you could want in a golf club except for access to membership. Would join without having ever set foot on it if the opportunity ever arose without any hesitation.
Dan
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I don't like Seminole....I love it!!!!
Lester
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;D ;D ;D
Thanks Brian , now we just need Malcolm to follow suit.
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I played Seminole a bunch of times. Everything you say is true. I always thought it was more like a $25 muni in some backroad town. But, I like eye candy, Cameron Diaz, Tobacco Road, Pine Valley, The South of France, and Batman Movies.
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Mike Schott,
I agree with you. Not many typical, average muni golfers have heard of a place like Seminole (or NGLA, Crystal Downs, etc.) Pebble Beach, for sure, but not those highly rated gems that don't show up on television while hosting a tournament.
Tim and Mike,
What courses other than Augusta and Pebble has the "typical, average muni golfer" heard of ?
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Mike Schott,
I agree with you. Not many typical, average muni golfers have heard of a place like Seminole (or NGLA, Crystal Downs, etc.) Pebble Beach, for sure, but not those highly rated gems that don't show up on television while hosting a tournament.
Tim and Mike,
What courses other than Augusta and Pebble has the "typical, average muni golfer" heard of ?
Hi Pat.
Good question. Mainly courses that have hosted majors. In addition to what Brian listed, probably TOC, Winged Foot, Medinah, Oakland Hills, maybe Congressional and Muirfield Village.
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This post may show my ignorance, but so be it, I'll ask anyway.
How does Seminole compare to Timuquana in Jax?
Brian,
The terrain, location and effect of the wind are vastly different.
While I liked Timuguana, it's not in the same league with Seminole.
I played Timmy twice in March and was blown away.
Timiquana is really more of a northern Florida course, a bit inland and tree lined.
Seminole is right on the ocean with a few palm trees and a lot of wind.
It was totally unlike what I expected for a Florida golf course. To me, it seemed more like a NC Sandhills course (albeit with far less elevation).
Seminole has some striking elevation changes, whereas Timiquana is relatively flat.
Seminole's greens and green surrounds are simply spectacular and considerably better as is their scale.
Hope that helps
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Mike & Tim,
So the golfer you depict basically gets his info from watching TV, probably not understanding that it takes months of special prep to get a course ready for an event.
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Pat,
You've convinced me. Please put my name in for membership.
Dr. Bailey
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GJ,
It's one of those rare courses that's challenging, but not overly penal, that's fun to play every day irrespective of the direction of the wind.
WIDTH is certainly a huge factor