Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim McCann on November 17, 2012, 08:30:05 AM
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... as it now apparently has 81 holes of golf available at the one location:
http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2012/11/17/rosapenna-acquires-st-patricks-to-become-81-hole-links-mecca.html
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And that's why it's nice to be doing design consulting work at Rosapenna. ;)
Full disclosure: I had heard about the land acquisition a month ago, and we spoke of it years ago, but I haven't talked with the Caseys since it has been finalized. I am hopeful that we will at least have the opportunity to work on a routing for the property and present our ideas. So, I wish Jim had kept quiet about it for a while longer!
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Tom
I actually got the information from a Frank Casey Jnr email so I though it was in order to make the news public on this site - sorry!
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Jim:
No, that's fine ... I'm sure that the Caseys are excited that the deal has come together. I just had my own selfish reasons for wanting it to stay quiet a bit longer. They will be beating off golf architects with a stick in short order, that is why it's nice to make friends well in advance of such developments.
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Tom
To quote Frank Jnr: "It's all over the web as of last night. All closing documents only sorted yesterday and 100% official."
Exciting times indeed for the current custodians of such a wonderful golf complex.
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Am I nuts or does 1mm Euro sound like a steal?
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Am I nuts or does 1mm Euro sound like a steal?
Jud:
It's a pretty good price, since the last owner bought it for 12mm Euro. But that was during a MUCH different economic climate in Ireland. Realistically, there weren't going to be too many buyers for this property ... it was much more practical for the Caseys than for anyone else, because they already HAVE a clubhouse and hotel, and don't need to build any more buildings until the demand tells them to expand. They can add to the golf for only the cost of the golf course ... and that's a much different proposition.
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All I can say is tremendous news.... This option really does make sense....
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This is great news indeed. I walked the Eddie Hackett designed Magheramagorgan course last year and while some of the land to the east isn't great golfing country, if it can be combined with the land occupied by the Trá Mór course, I'm sure a world class course can be built. The Trá Mór course occupied the better land and also bordered the beach. The Nicklaus group began their work on the 7th, 9th, 10th, and 11th holes of the Trá Mór course, and then the money ran out.
That will be a difficult decision to make; go for two very good 18 hole courses or one great and one good. Maybe two equally brilliant courses can be built by splitting the site wisely. The routing will be crucial. One thing is clear, the two (or should I say 1.75) courses as they are at present, do not do justice to the land they sit on.
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Fantastic news! I adore Rosapenna - the golf and hotel are second to none. I haven't walked St. Patrick's but have seen it from the road and from the higher spots on the Sandy Hills course. I am a great fan of Nicklaus the man and Nicklaus the golfer but as an architect, he does not inspire me. With a few judicious tweaks, I'm sure that St. Pat's will be a delight. On such terrain - it would be hard to mess up. Imagine? 81-holes on some of the best links land you'll ever see, incredible.
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I was there last year in October, admittedly a slow month for Irish golf. The hotel was decently occupied with a smattering of Belfast golfers and others from the Continent. I was just there for a couple of days and virtually all the folks were playing the OTM Links. The few folks I chatted with all said that the SH Links was just too tough for their games. I went around the SH links with a camera, but did not play. I was the only soul on the course. Looked pretty difficult for a resort course. I loved the place and am a fan of remote links far from the crowded cities. The cavernous Golf Pavilion was empty, may have been shut down for the season, and felt a little eerie. It was hard to imagine it teaming with golfers and operating at maximum capacity. What’s this place like in the high season?
I do wish them all the success with this wonderful property.
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Can someone explain the 81 holes to an uninformed soul?
There is the Old Tom Morris course, the Sandy Hills course and ....?
Bart
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Can someone explain the 81 holes to an uninformed soul?
There is the Old Tom Morris course, the Sandy Hills course and ....?
Bart
Old Tom Morris: 18
+ Sandy Hills: 18
+ Coastguard: 9
+ Trá Mór: 18*
+ Magheramagorgan: 18*
81
* I'm assuming that these will still be 2 18 hole routings. Tom Doak can probably speak more about this.
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Jim: good news, but when will they build the unie and cathedrals? :D
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Sandy Hills is not easy but it's very playable by high handicappers and ladies. My wife (33-handicap) and I (5-handicap) have played it several times and always enjoyed it.
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Can someone explain the 81 holes to an uninformed soul?
There is the Old Tom Morris course, the Sandy Hills course and ....?
Bart
Old Tom Morris: 18
+ Sandy Hills: 18
+ Coastguard: 9
+ Trá Mór: 18*
+ Magheramagorgan: 18*
81
* I'm assuming that these will still be 2 18 hole routings. Tom Doak can probably speak more about this.
I wouldn't assume that.... If the Caseys decide to develop new holes rather than reinstate then I reckon there could be a few different directions to go in... and developing must surely be the likely scenario...
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Sandy Hills is not easy but it's very playable by high handicappers and ladies. My wife (33-handicap) and I (5-handicap) have played it several times and always enjoyed it.
Most women can play any course as long as there aren't many forced carries, because they keep the ball low and hit it fairly straight.
The average 17-handicap male golfer is another story entirely.
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This is really positive news for links golf in Ireland... and the site has fallen into good hands. I hope that the Caseys look towards creating the best golf and not the "most" golf. Look towards the quality. It is an exceptional site, and total parcel of land, and may be one of the last, if not the last, links development in Ireland in our lifetime.
I wish good luck to the Casey Family, who are great people, and Tom, if and when tasked to give us the golf course(s).
KK
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I've been playing at Sandy Hills every other year for maybe 10-years (almost since it opened.) I've even been brave enough to tackle it with my hickories! The links has gradually become more sympathetic and it isn't over-littered with bunkers. It's only the really, wild player who cannot play this course. Is that such a bad thing? Some of the holes and some of the views are definitely worth crossing an ocean to play and see. For all that, I may actually prefer playing the Old Tom Morris course which is down 'on the flat.' I am getting too old for all of the climbing - Sandy Hills is a well chosen name. Even with 81-holes to choose from I'm sure Sandy Hills will be part of the golfing diet next time I am at Rosapenna.
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I've been playing at Sandy Hills every other year for maybe 10-years (almost since it opened.) I've even been brave enough to tackle it with my hickories! The links has gradually become wider and more sympathetic and it is not over-littered with bunkers either. This was not Pat Ruddy's original intention. He said he wanted to build the 'toughest links in Ireland.' He succeeded at the time but the course is now no where near as penal as it was at the beginning. It's only the really, wild player who cannot play this course now. Is that such a bad thing? Some of the holes and some of the views are definitely worth crossing an ocean to play and see. For all that, I may actually prefer playing the Old Tom Morris course which is down 'on the flat.' I am getting too old for all of the climbing - Sandy Hills is a well chosen name.
I played it in 2008 and just smiled at the endless tough shots posed. Fine once, but presumably a resort relies on people coming back. How differently would the course have been designed if the Architect hadn't sought to build "the toughest links in Ireland"? Just widening the fairways is unlikely to suddenly reveal a masterpiece.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record the links land developed in Ireland over the past 30 years has offered amazing potential, but where are the new Lahinch’s or Ballybunions? These are the courses I will return to , despite their high green fees . The land is there but the new courses have not got the best from them and in many cases the bulldozed fairways limit the potential for true greatness to be developed later. I only hope the Niclaus team didn’t do to much damage at St Patricks before the money ran out.
Fingers crossed that the developers look for someone with talent who will work with the land.
I'm very excited at the thought of a new reason to get back to the amazing Donegal.
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Tony - 2008 is 4-years ago and Sandy Hills has definitely 'mellowed' since then. It's still no pushover but you can get around without too much stress. The views and ambiance are still the same - heavenly!
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This is great news for Rossapenna, I met John Casey last week and he was telling me about the work that Tom did on the strand 9 .I am going to try and make a trip north as I would love to see this land before the lucky Architect gets his hands on it....
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Looking towards St Patricks (with some Niclaus work) form the end of Sandy Hills
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Rossapenna/Img1152.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Rossapenna/Img1153.jpg)
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They may have enough courses to match St Andrews but rival St Andrews? I think they need an ancient city and university, a shed full of Open Championships, etc, etc. give it 600 years.
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Before they think of rivalling St. Andrews I think they should take on an easier opponent, like say Myrtle Beach?
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Don't kick Rosapenna because of some headline writer! I'm sure that the St. Andrew's headline had nothing to do with the Casey's. St. Andrew's is unique but so will Rosapenna-St. Patrick's be, in their separate ways. Rosa has Andy walloped in one area - scenery - it's much better looking.
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Actually, their model should be and possibly is (viz. getting Tom Doak involved) based on Bandon. Both places are in the middle of nowhere, reachable only by multiple planes and serious automobile travel, and with little else to offer in the area other than remoteness and scenic beauty. Both have, or will have, 81+ holes. The real question is, will serious (or even not so serious) golfers who visit Ireland want to plonk themselves down at a destination resort, rather than flitting about to other venues? The only reasons Bandon works as a destination resort is the quality of the golf and the complete isolation of location (at least golf wise). St. Andrews has worked hard for much of the past 20-30 years trying to make it self a destination resort, but I would guess that very few golfing visitors stay there more than 3-4 days. Rosapenna can get quality golf quite easily, even if at a price because the land is so good and great designers are available. Vis a vis remoteness, it is not quite remote enough to avoid having its target market leak away to other relatively local venues, vs. Bandon where once you have got there, in a golfing sense there is no there there (pace Gerturde Stein) for hundred of miles in all directions.
Regardless. good luck to them and hope it works out better than the previous fiasco...
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It's an Irish course, let's have an Irish architect.
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Can someone explain the 81 holes to an uninformed soul?
There is the Old Tom Morris course, the Sandy Hills course and ....?
Bart
Old Tom Morris: 18
+ Sandy Hills: 18
+ Coastguard: 9
+ Trá Mór: 18*
+ Magheramagorgan: 18*
81
* I'm assuming that these will still be 2 18 hole routings. Tom Doak can probably speak more about this.
I know this has been covered before, but can someone please remind me what was done to the Old Tom Morris course? This is the course that Doak and Co. worked on? I didn't play there, but I recall some wonderful land near the beach and the hotel. What is the Coastguard 9?
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Can someone explain the 81 holes to an uninformed soul?
There is the Old Tom Morris course, the Sandy Hills course and ....?
Bart
Old Tom Morris: 18
+ Sandy Hills: 18
+ Coastguard: 9
+ Trá Mór: 18*
+ Magheramagorgan: 18*
81
* I'm assuming that these will still be 2 18 hole routings. Tom Doak can probably speak more about this.
I know this has been covered before, but can someone please remind me what was done to the Old Tom Morris course? This is the course that Doak and Co. worked on? I didn't play there, but I recall some wonderful land near the beach and the hotel. What is the Coastguard 9?
Tim:
There are only nine holes left that Old Tom Morris worked on -- this is called the Strand nine. For years it was paired with the Coastguard nine which crosses the main road and another side road, twice each, but this was deemed too dangerous. So, a few years ago Rosapenna built a fifth nine holes with Pat Ruddy, intending to splice that in with the Strand nine ... but before it opened, they asked us to work on it some more, rebuilding a bunch of the greens and adding a few bunkers. That is now the front nine of the Old Tom Morris course.
Ivan:
No, I'm hardly faultless; nobody would ever compare me to the Pope, even in jest. But I would dearly love to build a links course in Ireland someday, and if you had played a couple of my courses, maybe you would hope that I get the chance. There have been lots of attempts at it in the last 30 years, including a lot by both Irish and American designers [and even an Australian and an Englishman], without many results as good as Ballybunion or Lahinch to show for it.
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As far as I know, the St. Patrick's courses are already laid out by Big Jack. They will only need a little bit of tweaking and some TLC to become playable. Why should it be necessary to go all the way to America to find someone to perform those duties? If you read my GCA interview of a couple of month's ago, you will know that I believe Irish golf to be THE BEST, which begs the question why? I would guess the Eddie Hackett's and Pat Ruddy's of our world must have done a few things right?
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Brian - I hope to play Bandon Dunes next year (if I can afford it.) Then (and only then) will I see if it stacks up to my staple diet of the best links land in the world here in Ireland.
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Tom - Believe it or not, I have played at least a few of your courses. I must check it out how many exactly. Stonewall springs to mind but I can only vaguely remember a few of the holes - is that a bad sign? ;-))))) I'm wary of American architects getting their hands on an Irish links because of the mess (as I see it) that was made of the Cashen Course at Ballybunion. What a glorious opportunity was missed there. As far as I know, the St. Patrick's courses are already laid out by Big Jack, they will only need a little bit of tweaking and some TLC to become playable. It's hardly necessary to go to America to find someone to perform those duties. Anyway, it's none of my business apart from writing and commenting on events as they unfold. I DO wish you well in all of your endeavors wherever they may be. See you over here sometime, did meet you before, y'know?
Ivan:
If you haven't played Bandon or Barnbougle or Ballyneal or Dismal River, maybe you should, before you decide who is the best guy to design a links course. All of them are a bit better than the Cashen.
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Ivan:
If you haven't played Bandon or Barnbougle or Ballyneal or Dismal River, maybe you should, before you decide who is the best guy to design a links course. All of them are a bit better than the Cashen.
Heck, I would conjecture that Chambers Bay is a "bit" better than the Cashen.
;)
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Not all Irish architects are plumbers and not all American architects are geniuses. Believe it or not, an Irishman designed the White House in Washington DC.
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Ivan,
I would use Tom Doak from a marketing point of view would be great as it would attract a few from mainland UK and more from America to play. I am sure Tom would do a great job on one course.
There are many good golf course designers give them a chance like Mike Keiser did with David Mclay Kidd on one course and who knows - if I had the chance I would take it straight away and work alongside Adrian Stiff (under SAS Golf Design). I believe we would create a very good links course as Adrian has recreated links land using landfill for inland course which shows his understanding of how it works.
If the Casey's are looking for an Irish designer - Ally McIntosh would be a good call as his work on the new nine at Carne looks awesome as well as subtle otherwise they will go for dear Pat.
Robin Hiseman is another based on his experience on the Struie course at Dornoch and the Royal Course in Bahrain also there is Mike Clayton who has done great stuff over the last 10 years the list seems endless
It is similar in architecture some are the best at what they do what ever country they come from.
Rosapenna and the Casey's are very fortunate people to get their hands on over 72 holes of pure links golf! I wish it every success and hope to visit it one day
Cheers
Ben
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I enjoy driving around Ireland as much as the next guy, but few things can beat the experience of arriving at a location and setting up shop for 3 or 4 days and enjoying several world class linksy venues, good food, and a few pints every evening with friends and family before waking up the next morning and doing it all over again.
Best of luck to the Casey's and their endeavor - When the next course is completed (hopefully by one of the linksy minimalist architects already mentioned) I'll do my best to make it over the following summer.
Bandon, Barny/Lost Farm, Cabot (especially after the second course is done), Streamsong, etc. are all brilliant golf vacations that can't be beat for the number of rounds you can squeeze in over a short period of time.
When they build it - people will come!
Very exciting news for golf in Ireland, especially at a time when the economy is reeling.
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Tom,
A bit better than the Cashen? When you look up setting the bar low in the dictionary... ;)
Ivan,
I would hope the idea is to do more than just make it playable. They'll have to invest a bit more than that to get tourists to make the trip. And as long as we're being nationalistic, I'd play 10 out of 10 rounds at Pac Dunes, Old Mac or Ballyneal versus the European Club.
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I find saying it will rival St Andrews something Fox News would do. There is little to no chance of that. However it will be great for golf and I hope the new courses are just outstanding. That news is very exciting. I am glad to see Tom so bubbly over the prospects. Rich mentioned Bandon which certainly is a better comparison. East Lothian has an equal or greater consentration of high quality golf. Bandon has been an economic and golf success that any person would take pride in. No matter what, if it works it will be great for golf and Irish golf in particular. The more I think about it the more thrilled I am.
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I'm genuinely thrilled to read that the Casey's have bought St. Patrick's and i'd like to extend my congratulations to them for being seriously patient and finally securing the site for a fraction of its asking price. I was curious enough in the property to get hold of the NAMA property details and believe me, they've knocked a massive chunk off the list price. It's a great fit for Rosapenna and if anyone can make it work, they can.
I've been fascinated with the project since making a trip to Donegal a few years back with the intention of playing St. Pats, only to find that the gate was locked and the courses abandoned. Having shinnied over the gate and wandered about for a good hour or so through the dunes, it was clear that this was a thrilling site for a golf course. The existing routings were a touch rudimentary in parts, but the potential was crystal clear. I drove up to Rosapenna, introduced myself to Frank Casey Jnr and he told me all about the downfall of St. Pats.
Rosapenna is a superb golf destination already and having made the effort to get their once, this development will only hasten my return, with my clubs for sure, but it'd sure be nice to pitch up with a scale rule and work boots instead ;)
For those who are interested, Bing Maps has superb aerial photos of the links courses of Rosapenna and St. Patrick's.
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Can someone explain the 81 holes to an uninformed soul?
There is the Old Tom Morris course, the Sandy Hills course and ....?
Bart
Old Tom Morris: 18
+ Sandy Hills: 18
+ Coastguard: 9
+ Trá Mór: 18*
+ Magheramagorgan: 18*
81
* I'm assuming that these will still be 2 18 hole routings. Tom Doak can probably speak more about this.
I know this has been covered before, but can someone please remind me what was done to the Old Tom Morris course? This is the course that Doak and Co. worked on? I didn't play there, but I recall some wonderful land near the beach and the hotel. What is the Coastguard 9?
Tim:
There are only nine holes left that Old Tom Morris worked on -- this is called the Strand nine. For years it was paired with the Coastguard nine which crosses the main road and another side road, twice each, but this was deemed too dangerous. So, a few years ago Rosapenna built a fifth nine holes with Pat Ruddy, intending to splice that in with the Strand nine ... but before it opened, they asked us to work on it some more, rebuilding a bunch of the greens and adding a few bunkers. That is now the front nine of the Old Tom Morris course.
Tom,
Corect me if I'm wrong.
I've been visiting Rosapenna for nearly 20 years, and every time I go I get a bit more confused.
According to their website, isn't the "Strand" nine, the nine you and Pat Ruddy both worked on (the new front nine on Morris)
Your post implies the Tom Morris remaining holes are called the Strand nine. Did you mean to say Valley nine?
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Brian - you are right I was being unnecessarily harsh on The Cashen Course. I have withdrawn my remarks.
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How very nice to hear of a sudden outbreak of politeness on GCA. Well played Ivan.
Here's a link to a thread I posted about St. Pats a few years back where you'll find a few photos of the course.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41997.0.html
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Jeff:
Yes, I think Tom got confused (maybe he needs to spend more time on site ;D ;D). The Strand nine is the first nine of the OTM course. The valley holes are the second nine.
Ivan:
The Nicklaus course was never built. Jim Lipe (who is a member of this discussion group) was invloved in the first works. They did some clearing (as you can see in the photos Tony Muldoon posted), and then the money ran out. The Eddie Hackett designed Magheragorgan course was untouched by the initial works, and was still being gang mowed by a local farmer employed by NAMA. The Trá Mór course designed by Joanne O'Haire lost about 3-4 holes as a result of the works done by the Nicklaus group.
Tim:
Here's a quick summary:
1913-2009: OTM (Valley and Coastguard nines)
2009-today: OTM (Strand and Vallley nines)
2009-today: Coastguard holes redesigned and shortened; only one crossing of road in this new "Academy" nine.
Or the long (still incomplete) version:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51551.0.html
Rich:
I don't think Rosapenna needs to model itself on Bandon or Myrtle Beach. Rosapenna isn't a golfing retreat like Bandon. Many of the hotel guests don't play golf. In fact, Rosapenna has been holding conferences for over 100 years. In the past there was fishing, tennis, shooting, music recitals, and bathing. Guests walk the beaches, take trips around Fanad and the environs. With 3-4 courses, it'll be a nice place to stop for a few days if on a golfing trip of Donegal. They have a model that is clearly working and is profitable.
So, forget Bandon; forget St. Andrews, and look to ....
NORWAY!!!
(http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz169/doceallaigh/Coastguard/RosapennaHotel_Shrubsole1908.jpg)
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Tom,
Corect me if I'm wrong.
I've been visiting Rosapenna for nearly 20 years, and every time I go I get a bit more confused.
According to their website, isn't the "Strand" nine, the nine you and Pat Ruddy both worked on (the new front nine on Morris)
Your post implies the Tom Morris remaining holes are called the Strand nine. Did you mean to say Valley nine?
Jeff:
Sorry, my mistake. Since "Strand" means "beach" and the OTM holes are along the beach, I never did understand why the more inland holes got that designation. And I haven't been back to play since the new holes came online. Perhaps I will have a chance to rectify that in 2013.
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Just for Clarity:
just as soon as RosethePenny gets:
1. An Ancient University
2. The graves of OTM, YTM and Allan.
3. Hundreds of hot merkin uni students
4. Auchterlonies
5. the Dunvegan
and
6. THE FREAKIN OLD COURSE
Then - and ONLY then
Will it EVER
'Rival'
Saint freakin Andrews.
My final word on the matter... ;)
F.
PS Apart from when did quantity ever trump quality???
PPS See what I did there???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm???
F (again).
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This is all fantastic news.
I doesn't have to rival St Andrews to be great.
And if Tom Doak gets to design it, it's pretty much guaranteed to be great.
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bump
any word on this?
Donegal calling.......again
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I was in Donegal last month and two club officials in different clubhouses told me the people at Rosapenna
had only purchased the adjacent property to stop somebody else buying it and developing a rival enterprise.
Whether anything will come of the acquisition was anybody's guess (in their opinion).
I didn't get the chance to speak to Frank Casey Junior about this as he was out of the country, attending the
Masters tournament at Augusta.
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I don't believe for a second that Rosapenna Hotel bought the St. Patrick's land just so that no one else could build a course there. When I spoke to Frank Jnr a couple of summers back, he thought it was a shame that the land was lying undeveloped. He then said something along the lines of "if only a C&C or Doak could design a course there" . Read into that what you will. ;) Who knows, there could be movements going on in the background as we speak. Wasn't Doak travelling around Mulranny way not so long ago? Maybe he was heading north? ??? The Irish economy is slowly picking up, so a course opening in 2016-17 could be the perfect timing.
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Well, I wasn't in Ireland last month to work on routing a second nine at Mulranny ... although Ken Kearney told me he had done one, and I envy him for that!
I have no idea when something might happen at St. Patrick's, but we've spent a bit of time on the land and it deserves to have a great course on it.