Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mike McGuire on August 15, 2012, 06:07:33 PM
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Played in a Father Son event at Lawsonia yesterday.
Happy to report it continues to improve. They continue to actively manage vegetation.
Notably tree removal behind and around the par 3 14th. Shot is even scarier than before.
Also behind 18 green the tree removal makes the green pop a little more.
All the green pads have bent out to the edges.
Greens were stimping around 8-9 and fun to play. They would come alive at 10 but this was doable.
Its been dry so course is firm and fescue is wispy. No balls were lost in it in our alternate shot 3some.
Super Mike Berwick clearly "gets it". Nicely done.
Sorry no images. Too much fun grinding.
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I was informed last year that a different Super was brought in by new management co. So, I'm not sure about the gentleman you named.
I'm in a back injury mode, but as soon as I can, I want to get down there and see that tree removal. I heard mixed reviews, but the naysayer aren't tuned into GCA much and probably don't get the principle behind a clean backdrop there. They are the ones that love the Woodlands course and wonder why I like Lawsonia so much... ::) ;D
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Thanks for the update Mike. I've found the rumors of lousy conditioning and slow greens at Lawsonia to be greatly exaggerated. I haven't made it back there yet this year, but might need to make a trip sometime this fall.
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the Links were in great condition at the end of May...greens were probably an 11
love the course
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Anyone who gets up there please post a photo of the 14th. Should be a nice improvement to an already wonderful course.
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Andy wanted me to post this...I think its the 14th, not sure.
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/lawsonia141.jpg)
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Andy wanted me to post this...I think its the 14th, not sure.
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/lawsonia141.jpg)
Looks great!
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Mike:
Good to hear about the tree removal at the 14th. Have they done anything about some of the obtrusive branches near the tee of the 14th?
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Are we to understand that this photograph was taken AFTER significant tree removal?
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From a few years ago.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Lawsonia/14aIMG_3420.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Lawsonia/14cenhanced.jpg)
Many years ago.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Lawsonia/Lawsoniaspauldingarticle14thgree-1.jpg)
And even longer ago and what they should strive for.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Lawsonia/Lawsonia14th.jpg)
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Am I the only one who's not a huge fan of that last picture of 14? To me, it's such a unique and quiet enclave in that course and a really nice respite after that amazing crescendo of the round at 13. I just think there's something nice about playing into the woods on 13, spending one short hole within them, and then hitting out of them on the tee at 15.
I like the recent clearing for the benefits to turf and think the hole had gotten a touch overcrowded with them, but I just don't get this idea that the shot is more visually imposing without the trees behind than it is with them there.
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That front bunker looks really deep in some of the earlier photos.
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Those spruce trees are an abomination. Every single one should be felled. If you look at the old photograph, there are only hardwood trees and they are well off in the distance. At some point in between, somebody planted all of those "framing" conifers. Yuck.
I agree with Dan Moore that the earliest photo represents what they should be striving to get back to.
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Ron Forse told me the 14th green had been rebuilt at some point in time hence the slightly less deep bunker.
As you can see in the earliest photo, the 1930 aerial of the course hanging in the clubhouse shows the 14th hole routed through a grove of trees that also framed the 13th green. Other than the now defunct fairway tree on 13 there were virtually no trees anywhere else on the course. Hopefully they will continue to widen the corridor on 14 back to what it was-I think it will still give a feeling of isolation Jason likes without the unsightly spruce trees.
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I played 54 holes (36 Links, 18 Woodlands) at Lawsonia on July 14th. The lack of rain clearly had an effect on the Links course. We were getting more run on shots in landing in the rough than the fairway which seemed to amplify the effect of the severe and exciting slopes. It was my first time paying there and was truly unlike any other golf course I’ve seen.
The 14th didn’t feel claustrophobic at all and like Jason T. mentioned, it’s a nice respite after 13.
The greens were very firm – don’t know what they were stimping but it was plenty fast. Considering the drought conditions we’ve had in the Midwest, the course was in amazing shape.
I’ve never had so much fun on a golf course as I did playing the Links. I’m already planning to go back in the fall.
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Too bad it's only a Doak 6. ;D
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I played 54 holes (36 Links, 18 Woodlands) at Lawsonia on July 14th. The lack of rain clearly had an effect on the Links course. We were getting more run on shots in landing in the rough than the fairway which seemed to amplify the effect of the severe and exciting slopes. It was my first time paying there and was truly unlike any other golf course I’ve seen.
The 14th didn’t feel claustrophobic at all and like Jason T. mentioned, it’s a nice respite after 13.
The greens were very firm – don’t know what they were stimping but it was plenty fast. Considering the drought conditions we’ve had in the Midwest, the course was in amazing shape.
I’ve never had so much fun on a golf course as I did playing the Links. I’m already planning to go back in the fall.
I was there sometime in mid July and I would echo would Michael said. The course was firm and fast. I will say the trees being gone on 14 didn't really seem to bother me as far as depth perception, although I did have a front pin (low point of the green). Maybe a back pin might have caused a little more doubt to creep in my mind for fear of going over... which is death :(
By the end of my round the wind had picked up some and started to dry out the greens. In fact, I had a 20 foot birdie putt on 16 to a front right pin that I barely hit- it rolled right off of the green. On 17, there is a ridge bisecting the green into a right and left section. I was on the wrong side of the ridge after my approach, and I almost putted off the green again! Those two greens are probably the highest on the course without much in terms of trees around. But it was only like 3:00 in the afternoon. Let's just say I hope they watered those greens later in the day.
The Links is one of my favorite courses to play. It's just fun, so I definetly enjoyed my round.
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Ron Forse told me the 14th green had been rebuilt at some point in time hence the slightly less deep bunker.
As you can see in the earliest photo, the 1930 aerial of the course hanging in the clubhouse shows the 14th hole routed through a grove of trees that also framed the 13th green. Other than the now defunct fairway tree on 13 there were virtually no trees anywhere else on the course. Hopefully they will continue to widen the corridor on 14 back to what it was-I think it will still give a feeling of isolation Jason likes without the unsightly spruce trees.
That's interesting Dan, I had not heard that before. The green does seem a little less elegant, for lack of a better word, than the rest. Why would it have been rebuilt?
The trees around 13-14 are white pines. Still a conifer but 10x better than spruce and native to the area, unlike spruce.
Edit: the tree behind the green to the left looked like a black locust.
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Kalen,
Thanks for posting the photo of #14. It was sent to me by a friend that works with Lawsonia--I sadly haven't seen this newer version! It does look better than I remember with those trees in the back gone, although it looks like even more of the trees on the sides of the hole could come down too. I like having some trees in that part of the property for a change of pace, but a little goes a long way with something like that. Great place!
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Kalen,
Thanks for posting the photo of #14. It was sent to me by a friend that works with Lawsonia--I sadly haven't seen this newer version! It does look better than I remember with those trees in the back gone, although it looks like even more of the trees on the sides of the hole could come down too. I like having some trees in that part of the property for a change of pace, but a little goes a long way with something like that. Great place!
That's really what I'm getting at. With too many trees cleared, 14 could turn into the worst hole on the course by far. With the trees around, it's just a completely unique vibe back in that corner of the course that I think helps pace the routing and give the course routing a beautiful otherworldly moment. I think some trees should be cut for the sake of turf quality, but I just think it turns into a nothing hole if you open it up as much as we see in that last picture posted above.
I mean, it's not like the trees adversely affect playability on a 155 yard hole.
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The thinning out of trees also helps the turf on the 15th tee. I've often wondered it they took out all the trees that frame the green on 14, and the only backdrop are the trees seen far in the distance behind, past the 15th tee and the spill way from the pond to the right side of tee, I wonder if there is a way to site the tee box just 15 yards further back towards the Woodlands boundary. One reason, is safety from someone overclubbing the 14 tee shot, flying the green and bonking someone on the 15tee. I'll make and effort to get over there soon, and take a few more photos. I like the recent above one now, but I think they can go further, including a couple more up the right side completely opening up the tee box at extreme right side. I think opening that right side only adds to the vagueness of the distance and flight path of the ball, including giving even more emphasis to the steepness of the right side of the green up from the bunker.
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RJ:
Sadist! You want to make the 15th harder?! :-\
I get where you are coming from, but if they go that route, the folks there simply have to cut down that dang tree fronting the fairway bunker on 15. Maybe the single most egregious tree out there. (Or maybe they have already? 8) )
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Well Phil, I generally come down against touching a masterpiece of an Old Dead Guy. But, I confess I have often thought if it were possible to build a back tee to back right corner of existing tee, 15 yards longer, making the shot a bit more acute angle towards the tree into the upslope or top of the hill above the bunker. That tee would have to be perched and contained in a brick or RR ties platform to work above the spillway. If the tree goes, one more grass gull wing bunker in L&M style winged off and tapered to the right rear behind the first sand one en eschlon, with ideal LZ over the fat of the first bunker, and a penalty into the second grass bunker for the slice or inablility to carry up the bee line straight towards the hole, up right side. Similar to #6, or 11s right sides.
If the tree dies natural death as 13th died, could you see that architectural adjustment?
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I played LL on Friday afternoon and they were easily stimping 10. They were as fast as the Straits course I played in the morning. Played firm and fast. What a great course (other than the expletives running around in my head when I missed the 7th green ;D). How Pinehurst #8 is on that Golf Week Top 100 you can play ahead of this course I don't understand. ???
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Nigel, which round was more fun, morning at the Straights or afternoon at Lawsonia?
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Jud, Lawsonia was more fun because I drove it much better. I knew I would love LL, but it exceeded my expectations. Having said that I also had my expectations exceeded by Straits. It was terrific. I thought it was very fair, interesting, and playable. Drove it awful, but played the same ball the whole round. I was fortunate enough to play Olympia Fields, and I would rank that a very close second to the Straits course. Just a great old course with a ton of interesting holes. I was also very pleasantly surprised by Erin Hills. I was not sure what to expect from it, but I just thought it was great. Conditioning wise it seems to be a very difficult property to care for, and the elevated tees nearly killed my buddy, but very interesting and fun. I would rank all four of those courses neck and neck for fun and quality. The fifth course I played was Blackwolf Run which I was not as impressed with. I thought the 13th was pretty ridiculous. We got a slow play warning from the Marshall on 10, but it was just very difficult to find balls. BTW they were not my balls we were looking for, but in trying to play faster myself I just fell apart. Obviously the fun factor was missing for me there. :'(. Wisconsin golf is very high quality, and I had a great Chicago experience too!
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Nigel, that sounds like an excellent trip.
It says a lot for the value of Lawsonia that it stands up to the other courses you mentioned. Some of us might quibble about where it falls among the five you played, and I'm sure different people on this forum would rank it anywhere between #1 and #5, but the bottom line is it belongs in that class and that says a ton for its quality.
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Jason, I would rank it anyway from 1 to 4. They were all so good and the greens so perfect. I was just thrilled with my course selection. Even though I had a bad experience at Blackwolf I am blessed to have had the chance to play it. Sunset at Erin Hills and Lawsonia back to back days was amazing too. 90 holes in three days was heaven for me, but maybe a bit much for my friend.
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Anyone play Lawsonia Links lately?
How was the conditioning?
Post pics if possible.
Thanks.
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I was out there about a month ago. The conditioning was good but not as fast/firm as usual and the junk was a lot thicker making balls harder to find. Greens were good, but not as fast as usual as well (something of a relief out there). It's been wet up there, so I'm sure that's the reason as opposed to a change in maintenance philosophy. The continued tree removal on 14 is really nice as well.
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I played Lawsonia last weekend. Found the course in great shape, firm and fast. A few greens have small bare spots--apparently where last year's drought has a lasting impact. But these did not affect play.
Two of us teed off early on a Saturday and played in less than four hours. We played on an all-day (Internet-only I believe) rate of $145 per player, and went out again at 12:30, and again played at a good pace.
Facilities-wise, Lawsonia has in the last year completely revamped the clubhouse and has a nice bar and grill now where there used to be just a dull sitting room. Beer and liquor :o are served where once none could be had.
The only bad news was to told, upon asking for a pin sheet: "Use the laser gun" that is attached to each cart. Not helpful for walkers, which we were on the first go-round.
If you're planning a trip, check on green maintenance at this time of year--they punch at the end of August.
I think the changes to 14 are great.
View from 11 toward 14 below--those who recall the former forest over there will remember you couldn't see the 14th green until you were on the tee.
(http://home.comcast.net/~et1016/Lawsonia 14 from 11.jpg)
View of 14 green:
(http://home.comcast.net/~et1016/lawsonia 14 green.jpg)
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Eric:
Thanks for the update -- 14 now has a vague skyline look to it and much less "cozier" that its previous incarnation. Work obligations are keeping me from making an invited trip up there this coming week, but I hope to go sometime this fall.
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Losing those 3 trees inside the cartpath would make a world of difference.
MM
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Losing those 3 trees inside the cartpath would make a world of difference.
MM
Mark:
Sure, get rid of those trees -- but I'm not sure it's going to make a "world" of difference. The key work has been done -- exposing that green to the elements (wind, notably, but also sun which I assume will help with turf quality), and eliminating trees behind to give the golfer on the tee pause, esp. to a back pin. Those three trees inside the cart path don't have much impact in how the hole plays.
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Disagree Phil. You will bring back a line of sight to the teebox as well of the hillside. A pretty big improvement IMO.
Not trying to bash the hole either, it looks like a great improvement already.
MM
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I agree that those 3 are out of place. I think they'd make "a difference," but the work so far looks like it's already made a "world of difference." 14 is a completely different hole now than it was in Ran's review.
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I wouldn't miss those trees, and they may impact play to a back right pin, especially from the the back tees. But where the pin was on the day we played, those trees did not figure into my calculations.
The great thing about the design of the slopes around the green is that you can land it left and short of the green and that front right pin and watch it roll towards the hole. Precision is required to get it close though, as it should be on a relatively short hole. I watched one ball that hit short run well past the pin and another almost fall right down the hill into the bunker.
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I can imagine that the remaining trees on the left may at their very most inside line affect a pronounced-exaggerated fade/slicing sort of shot attempt. But, that might be a very rare striker of such a shot. I like the tree removal very much. I think I wrote about it twice since it has been done. I only played there once this year, and did not really see the issue of remaining trees, and only felt a wee bit of trepidation on the exposure of folks to long shots coming in from 14 to 15 tees. The improvement is excellent IMHO, and worth the slight higher risk if some dumb ass hits two clubs too much and sails one over onto 15 tee, and the folks on 15 are too dumb to maintain a watch on the obvious, and the errant golfer too dumb to yell 'fore on 15'. ;D 8)
Yes, purists would say more trees there could be taken. But, imagine all the anxt already absorbed by the tree huggers, and them gradually getting over the previous years of de-treeing. I think it is all pretty good as is, and should remain so for a very long time. Mother nature may thin those very high trees a little more as the coming years expose them to storms. It is all good as is... IMO.
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Eric,
How long is the hole from the normal and back tees?
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Off the top of my head... 138-140ish whites, and 150-55 blues.
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Looks like a huge improvement to what I remember.
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Eric,
How long is the hole from the normal and back tees?
Mark:
183 blues
162 whites
145 golds/reds
although I seem to recall as RJ does that the whites are set shorter than what's listed on the card, often @ 150 yds or so.
Plays somewhat downhill, although not a club's worth, and east/northeast, so if anything you're likely to encounter a helping breeze of sorts, particularly in the summer.
Eric -- that's a really good point about landing it short on 14 -- a feature hidden somewhat by the terrain. The green has that "catcher's mitt" look to it that Ran M. here somewhat disdains, but there are some interesting ways to get the ball close to pins on that hole.
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Wow, thats a demanding shot from 183!
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Wow, thats a demanding shot from 183!
Mark:
It's a pretty deep green.
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Phil, not so much... ;D
http://photos.bluegolf.com/71/78/1a/e7/9b6d49eaa9666172ecd93a94_l.jpg (http://photos.bluegolf.com/71/78/1a/e7/9b6d49eaa9666172ecd93a94_l.jpg)
You had me thinking I was going crazy there for a minute. 139W - 154B. 183 would put it in elite of elite pro skill territory.
edit, I see what you did now, you got it mixed up with 12, for which the yardage there is 183 blue, and a tough shot at that!
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RJ:
You're correct as always sir -- I was looking at 12 on my scorecard sted of 14. ???
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Regardless, anyone who plays the back 9 par threes at even par, is doing damn good! ;D
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Eric, thanks for the report. #14 has been hugely improved by the removal of those trees behind the green. I wonder if they are planning on removing the remaining trees behind #13 for the full effect?
I need to make a trip down there this fall. It's been too long since I've been to Lawsonia.
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How long is the hole from the normal and back tees?
RJ has the card yardage right. In 6 or 7 trips to Lawsonia I can't recall seeing the pin up that far. I had my new GPS Dick Tracy watch that reads out front, center and back yardages (much better tool than a laser imo). It read 115 front from where the white tees were placed, and it's all downhill, so it was a neat little chip shot on that day. From the back tees it probably would have been +20 or 25
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Having played there yesterday (in the fine company of RJ Daley and Pete Pittock), I can report that the trees on the right side of this hole (14) have little bearing on how it plays, and can stay or go -- doesn't really matter. But additional tree clearance is badly needed on the left side of the hole, from tee to green. With tees set on the left side of the teeing ground, I was inspired to play that nifty little shot short that bounces onto the green (the pin was up that day, and with the tilt of the green, I didn't want another downhill put on those fast-running greens.) Alas, I caught a tree branch that ricocheted my ball into the gunch right on my way to an ignobling 6.
Despite that one encounter, the round at Lawsonia was a golfing highlight -- as fast and firm as I've encountered the course (and I've been going up there for two decades; Mayor Daley confirmed my view -- he's been going up there since the pre-Cambrian era ;D). Fast-running, firm greens and a near-ideal maintenance meld. Fall might be the best time to experience Lawsonia as Langford envisioned it; well worth a round.
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Despite that one encounter, the round at Lawsonia was a golfing highlight -- as fast and firm as I've encountered the course (and I've been going up there for two decades; Mayor Daley confirmed my view -- he's been going up there since the pre-Cambrian era ;D). Fast-running, firm greens and a near-ideal maintenance meld. Fall might be the best time to experience Lawsonia as Langford envisioned it; well worth a round.
That's great to hear, Phil. I'm thinking of taking a trip down in October for a night, assuming the weather holds. Thanks for the report.
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Despite that one encounter, the round at Lawsonia was a golfing highlight -- as fast and firm as I've encountered the course (and I've been going up there for two decades; Mayor Daley confirmed my view -- he's been going up there since the pre-Cambrian era ;D). Fast-running, firm greens and a near-ideal maintenance meld. Fall might be the best time to experience Lawsonia as Langford envisioned it; well worth a round.
That's great to hear, Phil. I'm thinking of taking a trip down in October for a night, assuming the weather holds. Thanks for the report.
Pat:
What was really neat were the green speeds; others in the past here on GCA have complained in years previous to slow green speeds there, and there was a great deal of truth in that. But the greens yesterday was pretty darn quick -- and they'd been punched once already (although several weeks ago). Alot of firmness to them, as well, which made me think twice on several approaches.
Pete can weigh in as well, but he's making the rounds of Upper Midwestern courses, and had played the day before at a certain well-known, high-profile course here in Wisconsin (on somewhat holy ground ;)), and reported Lawsonia is running faster and firmer than its better-known brethren.
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Yes, I will say this may be/probably is the fasted-firmest I've ever experienced the greens at Lawsonia. I don't think a single ball mark was made, and I don't remember having to repair one that someone else made. But, they were not over the top speeds for the slopes and completely fair match of speed to slopes. Also, the FWs were running great, with lots of ball bound and runnout. The peak color is about 2 weeks away. I'd say any golf played in the next month at Lawsonia Links Classic would be special by anyone's standards.
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More than impressed on my only visit. 14 does not set up for a left to right ball flight, but the other 17 holes do. The best way to play Boxcar leaving boxcars out of the equation is to hit a weak fade short right, 58 degree wedge onto the green and go from there.
If raters saw it in Wednesday conditions (F&F) it would climb up. I remember us having a lot of shots finish at the back of the greens or beyond. Conditionwise it seemed at least equal to Erin Hills except for a couple of weak spots on 13, probably from lack of sunlight. Correcting that might help Phil on 14.
I'm glad I didn't review it via photo tour before I played.
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Was Pete Dye influenced by Lawsonia when he built the 16th hole's San Andreas bunker's grass wall at PGA West Stadium
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I spent the last couple of days in Green Lake and got in 4 rounds on the Links Course. It was my first visit since the Mashie ~2.5 years ago and quite a few things surprised me:
1) The golf course is extremely firm & fast. The fairways were running as quick as I had ever seen them. I know it's generally been a dry summer in the Midwest, but it seemed like they've been aggressive topdressing the fairways? There was stray sand everywhere and I noticed that even the "seed mix" in the carts consisted of mostly sand. Yesterday afternoon they were topdressing the greens. I don't know if this is part of a larger effort to keep the course playing fast via "Sand-capping" the course or just general fall maintenance.
2) Those that have complain that the greens are too slow at Lawsonia should of played the course this weekend. They were easily the fastest/smoothest I had ever seen them and they were borderline too fast. We saw some putts roll off greens and approach shots/pitches/chips roll back down false fronts. I would guess that the greens were running at 10 or so. With that some of the larger slopes made for very difficult putts and quite a few three putts when a lag putt had to navigate a significant internal contour.
3) The new tee box(es) on #18 are very well done and make the hole far, far better. Thankfully they tore down that eyesore of a building next to the back tee (that looked like it had sustained fire/water damage the last time I was there). From the new back tee the hole plays ~580 yards and brings both the cross bunkers on the right into play off the tee and a cross bunker on the right in play on the second shot. This is a significant improvement and makes the hole more interesting/tougher for better players.
4) I thought the tree removal behind the 14th green looked good. The hole looks pretty similar from the tee due to the trees in the background along the perimeter, but a lot better when you're standing closer to the green. I thought the green slopes were more notable.
5) I was surprised how many trees they had taken down around the perimeter of the course. You can now see Green Lake from the 14th green/15th tee and you can now see a lot more of the Woodlands Course from the Links Course.
6) They could stand to take out a few more of the trees, in particular the 4 awful trees behind #4 green (very out of place), a few near the landing area on #5, all of the ugly pines near #13 green, and the tree near the fairway bunker on #15.
7) The complex was busier than I had ever seen it. Sunday afternoon there were three groups on every hole on the Links Course. For the first time it seemed that the Links is getting more play than the Woodlands? Changing tastes? Recognition of rankings? The new bar is nice and generally it seems like it's becoming a little more commercialized and geared toward vacation groups of golfers.
The golf course is fantastic (as always), and in as good of condition as I've seen it in ~6 visits and over 20-25 plays. If we get another couple nice days I would recommend driving over for a play.
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Just how bad is the woodlands course?
I think I have our (very diverse) group convinced to give Lawsonia a shot next year, and a few are concerned about not having "enough" courses. I've been working the group to say one great course is better than five poor to average ones (Gull Lake View).
I know they'll want to play the woodlands some, but I assume it should be limited. We generally play two days of foursomes and one day of singles for our "team competition" and then have a fun 9 on the first day, and a scramble on the second day where drinks are common. Ideally, would the Woodlands work as just a scramble course?
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Andrew,
I took a group of guys up to Lawsonia a few years ago for a similar type deal. Before the trip one of my buddies thought we should schedule a round on the Woodlands to "mix it up." After the fact everyone admitted that playing the Woodlands was a mistake and another round on the Links would of been better. The Woodlands is just ok, but compared to the Links it stinks. It would be like assuming Butler & Oak Brook were the same complex, and turning down a round at Butler to go "mix it up" at Oak Brook.
Just my two cents. If the one condition your buddies have to a trip to Lawsonia is a round on the Woodlands...go for it.
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Semi-OT question here.
What is Lawsonia's alcohol policy these days?
I know that they serve beer/wine in the clubhouse now, but do they have a cart girl with beverages as well? Can one fill a bag of beers in the clubhouse and bring them onto the course?
I am heading up there next weekend with a group of 16 for a 3 day/5 round Stay and Play.
I don't drink, but the rest of the group imbibes...heavily.
Any knowledge/advice is appreciated.
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Semi-OT question here.
What is Lawsonia's alcohol policy these days?
I know that they serve beer/wine in the clubhouse now, but do they have a cart girl with beverages as well? Can one fill a bag of beers in the clubhouse and bring them onto the course?
I am heading up there next weekend with a group of 16 for a 3 day/5 round Stay and Play.
I don't drink, but the rest of the group imbibes...heavily.
Any knowledge/advice is appreciated.
Your buddies will have no problem getting Gordon Bombay'd, don't worry.
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Thank you, sir.
P.S. LOVE that reference.
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This conversation ended in 2013 apparently but I just saw it and felt compelled to respond. I totally disagree that playing the Woodlands is a "mistake". Its a beautiful and challenging golf course well worth playing. It is NOTHING like playing Oak Brook.
I just came back from Lawsonia last weekend and although the Links is unquestionably the superior track, I think the Woodlands is definitely worth playing on every visit. Its what makes Lawsonia such a tremendous destination having two completely distinct and unique tracks on the same property.
Just my two cents for anyone who decides to go up to Lawsonia for a weekend getaway.
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Mike, I've got to be honest: I've never heard of anyone else having remotely the same take after a visit to Lawsonia. Could you discuss the architectural reasons that a person should consider a round on the Woodlands when Langford's best and best-preserved course, a top 100 contender with a $105 peak season all-day rate is nextdoor? I understand that it's scenic and challenging. So is Argue-ment, and just as I would split 10 rounds in Green County at 10-0 in favor of New Glarus over Argue-ment, I would also split 10 rounds in Green Lake at 10-0 in favor of the Links.
Personally, I can't think of a 36-hole complex with a bigger disparity between its courses. The gap between the Straits and the Irish isn't half as big in my book.
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Thank you both for the input.
We are splitting our rounds 3 (Links) and 2 (Woodlands).
I'll report back on course condition/how to the split went over with the crew after I return.
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The Woodlands course is beyond awful and not worth playing at all with the Links also on property.
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Thinking about 18/36 at Lawsonia on August 3rd. Anyone interested?
Bogey
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Love Lawsonia. One of my favorite courses. Whenever I visit my daughter in Madison always make time to get up to Green Lake.
I will be in Wisconsin after Labor Day. Only time for one round and giving some consideration to playing Sentry world. I understand SW is not in Lawsonia's league. It is also more expensive and a bit further.
That being said it is always enjoyable to experience a new course if it is worthwhile. Should I consider giving Sentry a shot and for this year forego Lawsonia?
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Played 36 this past Tuesday at Lawsonia, all 36 on the Links. Course was great, my first time and absolutely in love with it. Looking at the old photos of 14 makes me appreciate the holes so much more now. Not a single tree around it except on right side of path to the green. Trees were cleared all around 10 green as well. Very cool playing 13 and you see the greens complexes cascade down the hill from 10 to 13 to 14. Plenty of alcohol available for those who want some. Greens were running smooth and fair for their undulations. Will make this trip again.
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Love Lawsonia. One of my favorite courses. Whenever I visit my daughter in Madison always make time to get up to Green Lake.
I will be in Wisconsin after Labor Day. Only time for one round and giving some consideration to playing Sentry world. I understand SW is not in Lawsonia's league. It is also more expensive and a bit further.
That being said it is always enjoyable to experience a new course if it is worthwhile. Should I consider giving Sentry a shot and for this year forego Lawsonia?
Cliff: While I am loathe to recommend anyone skipping a round at Lawsonia Links, I've heard very good reports about the renovation work at SentryWorld -- with the caveat I've yet to play it. Others here on the board have, however, and have reported a really solid round of golf at a course redone and overseen by (I believe) Jay Blasi of Chambers Bay fame.
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Thanks, Phil. If I had never played Lawsonia it would be a no-brainer. I am leaning toward SentryWorld and hoping that those who have played it will chime in.
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Lawsonia Links is one of my favorites and think that playing the other course would be a disservice to your time.
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Jason,
There is no question that the links is the better track and if you have one round or two rounds you should stick to the links. However, if you are taking a golf trip and not just going there to seek out history I think the woodlands provides great variety and is still a great course despite not bringing anything architecturally significant. if you are going up there for a trip and have some high handicappers I would not be surprised if they enjoy the woodlands more. In our group of 10 at least two of them think the woodlands is the Better course. Obviously I completely disagree but I have always found the disdain for the woodlands on gca severely exaggerated. It's in great shape, is beautiful with a few holes around the lake and is a great contrast to the links.
It does however have one terrible hole in the par 5 18th but other than that I think it's a nice course. Not in the same league as the links from an architectural standpoint but it's beautiful and provides a nice challenge and change of pace.
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Those that are judging (or even calling) the woodlands a golf course, must not be aware of any of it's history.
The "Woodlands" course, is a compilation of two different nine hole projects. It's merely a collection of 18 holes with little or no soul as a whole.
The "south nine", as it was called, is the front nine on the woodlands and has some rather unique holes. I can recall feeling it was a lot like a Dick Wilson course, which should be no surprise since I think it's a Joe Lee. Is that correct?
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The "south nine", as it was called, is the front nine on the woodlands and has some rather unique holes. I can recall feeling it was a lot like a Dick Wilson course, which should be no surprise since I think it's a Joe Lee. Is that correct?
Adam:
Cornish and Whitten lists the Woodlands as a "Joe Lee, Rocky Roquemore" design. My sense is that Lee did the original 9 of the Woodlands, and Roquemore did the second nine and made some revisions to the original nine there.
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I can't imagine missing 1 round on the Links for the Woodlands, SentryWorld, or for that matter the American Club or Erin Hills. It's that good (and suits my mediocre game and budget better than those overhyped and overpriced tournament tracks). As one GCA member said when we had the Midwest Mashie there and was shocked at what he saw, "If this course were private and on Long Island, everyone would be falling all over themselves to get out." Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...
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I can't imagine missing 1 round on the Links for the Woodlands, SentryWorld, or for that matter the American Club or Erin Hills. It's that good (and suits my mediocre game and budget better than those overhyped and overpriced tournament tracks). As one GCA member said when we had the Midwest Mashie there and was shocked at what he saw, "If this course were private and on Long Island, everyone would be falling all over themselves to get out." Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...
This is high praise indeed. I'm doing a Wisconsin weekend in August. Currently planning to do a full day at Lawsonia Links and then a round at Erin Hills the following day. Is it really worth it to skip EH to play a third round at Lawsonia?
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Cornish and Whitten lists the Woodlands as a "Joe Lee, Rocky Roquemore" design. My sense is that Lee did the original 9 of the Woodlands, and Roquemore did the second nine and made some revisions to the original nine there.
Phil, I seem to remember that Bob Lohmann did the new 9 sometime around1989-90 I might be wrong.
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Brian,
I would play Erin Hills if you never have and are getting 36 in at the Links, then make up your own mind. I've already made mine up.
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Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...
That is an interesting thought, Jud. It would be premature to try and evaluate Sand Valley for comparison purposes of course. But as to quality AND value... well you would have to go a long way to find a quality to value ratio as attractive to Lawsonia. Wild Horse of course... ;) ;D
But, given Oliphant is involved with Kaiser in cahoots with Coore and Crenshaw to bring the first course in at Sand Valley, and given the land quality at Sand Valley, it is almost inconceivable to me that Sand Valley won't be a world beater in quality. Value, or as I like consider, affordability, may be another matter. We'll just have to wait and see.
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I don't get the Value thing. Seems like the price has doubled since I played back when Erin Hills opened.
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I don't get the Value thing. Seems like the price has doubled since I played back when Erin Hills opened.
If it was really cheap before and they double the price so it is only sorta cheap, it is still a good value for the quality of the course. Looks like as little as $35 during the shoulder seasons, and even during high season weekend rates it is only $90 including cart, or $145 for all day play. Not many courses that calibre with such attractive rates - try getting an all day play deal from Pebble and see what they'd charge if they offered it! Well, I guess you actually can, but only because it takes all day to play a single 18 hole round there... ::)
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I can't imagine missing 1 round on the Links for the Woodlands, SentryWorld, or for that matter the American Club or Erin Hills. It's that good (and suits my mediocre game and budget better than those overhyped and overpriced tournament tracks). As one GCA member said when we had the Midwest Mashie there and was shocked at what he saw, "If this course were private and on Long Island, everyone would be falling all over themselves to get out." Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...
This is high praise indeed. I'm doing a Wisconsin weekend in August. Currently planning to do a full day at Lawsonia Links and then a round at Erin Hills the following day. Is it really worth it to skip EH to play a third round at Lawsonia?
If you've never played Erin Hills (I don't think you have?) and you're already in the area I would say 36 (or more) on the Links, then 18 at EH would be a good combo.
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I can't imagine missing 1 round on the Links for the Woodlands, SentryWorld, or for that matter the American Club or Erin Hills. It's that good (and suits my mediocre game and budget better than those overhyped and overpriced tournament tracks). As one GCA member said when we had the Midwest Mashie there and was shocked at what he saw, "If this course were private and on Long Island, everyone would be falling all over themselves to get out." Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...
This is high praise indeed. I'm doing a Wisconsin weekend in August. Currently planning to do a full day at Lawsonia Links and then a round at Erin Hills the following day. Is it really worth it to skip EH to play a third round at Lawsonia?
If you've never played Erin Hills (I don't think you have?) and you're already in the area I would say 36 (or more) on the Links, then 18 at EH would be a good combo.
That's currently the plan! I'm looking forward to it.
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Brian:
I'd agree with Pat on the 36/18 plan -- there aren't too many public-access U.S. Open sites in the world, and EHills is one of the few. It's a pretty polarizing course -- perhaps one reason it's worth a round. There is some really good golf at EHills, but I also think it has some odd quirks and features.
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Hoover, I love Lawsonia. Truthfully, the "big 4" in Wisconsin (Erin Hills, Lawsonia, Straits, and Blackwolf Run River) are all excellent and it's hard for me to pick a favorite of the group.
Lawsonia's overall value is what really separates it from the others, as I can't see justifying ever spending the cash on peak-season rates in Kohler when I can play all day at Lawsonia for four days and buy $20 worth of beer for the same cost as a single round at the Straits. But Erin Hills, to me, is a treat that's well worth checking out at their current rates, especially considering that the cost will likely skyrocket once the last putt in the 2017 US Open drops. It's probably my favorite public course in Wisconsin, although my answer may change tomorrow.
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Jason, thanks for the comment. The reason I want to play Erin Hills is that it's a relatively easy drive from where I now live, and I already was planning to be at Lawsonia the day before. I also will admit that I liked what I saw of EH during the US Am a few years back, and it will be easier to play there this year than next year and after the 2017 Open.
I'm looking forward to playing both Lawsonia (because I missed the Mashie there) and EH.
I also agree about not wanting to pay regular season rates at Kohler (although I do want to get out there at some point). And then with the opening of Sand Valley, that's another reason to visit Wisconsin (not to mention the water park capital of the world--Wisconsin Dells when my son is a bit older).
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I just played Lawsonia today for the first time.
WOW!!!
What else could you ever possibly need in a golf course?
I went through several of the old threads and it is hard to even recognize the course from five to seven years ago to what I played today. So many more of the trees have come down in the time the last photos were posted on this site.
Recent weather in Green Lake has been quite rainy so the the course was somewhat soft. And, the temperature today barely got to 40 with a good 15-25 mph wind per weather.com. So, from the tips the course played quite long. For example, into a strong headwind with a slight left to right angle, I hit a really good drive and six iron on #1 and still came up short.
A great set of greens that were true and fast (made even faster by the wind). I repeatedly got to a green and just chuckled about how awesome it was and how much I was having (I was one of two groups on the course. The other was a twosome and I only saw them one time. Oh...and I played for $45).
The par 3s were fantastic...and hard.
A really interesting set of par 5s as well.
Lots of blind tee shots. I was not prepared for that. Or the overall undulation of the property. Just great land movement and several of the par 5s made great use of that land movement.
The only negative would be the abundance of dogleg rights. But, I just got done playing Sand Valley which had an abundance of dogleg lefts.
Definitely need to come back to Lawsonia and play in some F&F conditions.
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Steve,
The place is the real deal, isn’t it?
I’ve only played it once, and keep feeling like I need a return trip.
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The golf world would be a much better place with more Lawsonia type courses, wouldn’t it!
I ask again... why did this style fall out of favor? I’d give anything to have a course like Lawsonia near me in SC.
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The golf world would be a much better place with more Lawsonia type courses, wouldn’t it!
I ask again... why did this style fall out of favor? I’d give anything to have a course like Lawsonia near me in SC.
Michael, your question implies that those architects that this site believes are bringing about a "New Golden Age" could build a Lawsonia in their sleep if they chose to do so.
Or perhaps, there's no money in it.
Either way, that's how we wind up with a Mammoth Dunes and the masses who will flock there.
Bogey
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Bogey - your reply to my question makes no sense to me. My question didn’t imply anything. I have asked many times in multiple threads on this site why the design style of Lawsonia (and similar courses) was abandoned after the passing of Langford & Moreau, Raynor, Macdonald, Banks, etc. Their courses are so popular one would think the style would have been continued... or resurrected by some enterprising archie looking for a unique niche. I think an architect would have to be really committed to the style to make it would. There have been a few efforts... ie Silva's Black Creek in Chattanooga... but, the TOTAL commitment to the style never seems to be there and “something” is missing. I’d like to see if the new course at Arcadia Bluffs really fits the bill.
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And, what the heck has Mammoth Dunes got to do with the style of Lawsonia? You lost me there as well.
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Michael W.,
It’s a good question and one that begs another question (which certainly has been discussed in thousands of GCA posts), what are the definitive hallmarks of the style?
Do you think that much of Pete Dye’s work is at least derivative of the style? I think there are some visual similarities in shaping. I don’t think his greens en masse have quite the same singularity as the greens of these particular ODGs.
[size=78%]Even if Dye’s work can bring them to mind, he is but one example and his style is unique in the design world which supports, rather than refutes your point.[/size]
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Lawsonia Links is as good as it gets and one of my all time favorite courses to play. The fun meter is just through the roof.
You must come back and play it in August or so when the conditions are fast and firm.
As for new courses not being built this way... I did actually see a lot of Lawsonia Links in the new Arcadia Bluffs South course. Hopefully more will follow.
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As probably noted many times before about the question of why the design style abandoned the great earthworks of the L&M or MacRaynor, I think lies in the embrace of easier mowing efficiency as a general design directive by developers and maintenance minded supers as years progressed. The teens through 30s didn't care as much about the cost of labor. They could have large crews doing a great deal of hand work to maintain the long mounds and steep sided green platforms, etc. Just my thoughts...
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Do you think that much of Pete Dye’s work is at least derivative of the style?
It is well documented that Alice Dye grew up on a Langford and Moreau golf course, and that she and Pete were both huge fans of that style. There's no doubt it was an influence on their work. However, Pete generally built his greens at grade, instead of on fill pads as Langford did. This was especially necessary when he was working in the southeast on flattish sites, where it was harder to make fill pads tie into the landscape. A Langford course with development lots on both sides of the fairway would look pretty silly.
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Do you think that much of Pete Dye’s work is at least derivative of the style?
It is well documented that Alice Dye grew up on a Langford and Moreau golf course, and that she and Pete were both huge fans of that style. There's no doubt it was an influence on their work. However, Pete generally built his greens at grade, instead of on fill pads as Langford did. This was especially necessary when he was working in the southeast on flattish sites, where it was harder to make fill pads tie into the landscape. A Langford course with development lots on both sides of the fairway would look pretty silly.
yet Dye's best layout for many may have been early in his career, the Golf Club, and thereafter maybe Harbour Town, yet further down the line his faux design work at Sawgrass is one of my favorites, yet further faux Straits is an abomination
thanks Tom, but Lawsonia is very appealing and is not all all fill pads as you infer derogatorily despite the location on the globe
not sure what your point here is Tom as you did not reference Lawsonia Links
sure glad Alice grew up on a golf course, but which one?
good luck with Sedge :)
http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/mark-chalfant-the-architecture-of-william-b-langford/
cheers