Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on July 31, 2012, 04:32:14 AM
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Sevenoaks, a smart London bedroom community in Kent, is probably most famous for six of its specially planted seven oaks being uprooted during the Great Storm of 1987. The six were replaced amid a media storm of its own shortly afterwards! Though, for most of us, it is hard to see what all the fuss is about as there are countless oaks scattered about Knole Park's 1000 acres. Yes, the course is situated within Knole Park, but one doesn't have any sense as to what may be encountered during the round. Climbing from the valley bisecting the 6th, the magnificent Knole House gradually reveals itself. Made of traditional Kentish ragstone, the immensity of the structure is difficult to fathom. Seat to the Barons Sackville, Knole House is now open to the public, however, most of its 356 rooms are privately owned. As would be expected for such an iconic building, many bits and bobs of films and tv programs have been filmed around the grounds of the house; including The Beatles' Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields Forever vidoes.
The original routing is mainly intact with the biggest alteration being the 4th hole. It now plays awkwardly as a dogleg left where previously the hole was about the same length, but bent a bit right. The plan reveals a much more interesting bunker scheme than exists today....I do wonder if that was influenced by Simpson? The sketch in the lower right corner looks to be by the hand of Simpson.
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Opened in 1924 by the 3rd Lord Sackville, Knole Park GC was designed by South African born J Abercomby (see map?) with design help from Fowler as a par 72 with six 5s, six 4s and six 3s (its now a par 69 from the daily tees). James Braid also submitted a plan and it is unclear if any of his design was utilized. Later alterations were carried out by Simpson, but it isn't known what they were, although Simpson claims the 6th. Roger Wethered's caddie for the opening exhibition match in 1929 was one young Sam King, Knole Park's most famous son. Long time professional to the club, Mr King was born the son of a Knole Park Estate tenant farmer. He finished in the top 10 nine times while playing in every Open held between 1932 and 1962. Finishing four shots behind winner Dick Burton in 1939, this was the last Open played until 1946. WWII cut short the careers of several fine players who may well have made a bigger mark in the game. 1939 also saw the cancellation of the Ryder Cup, the second of which Mr King was selected as a competitor. In all, Sam King played in three Ryder Cups (1937, 1947 & 1949) and recorded the only point earned for Great Britain & Ireland during the 1947 matches in Portland. Demonstrating that at one time the distinction between professional and amateur was not always clean cut, partnering Wonda Morgan (one of the premier British ladies amateurs in the early 1930s and won the British Ladies in 1935), the pair won the Sunningdale Foursomes in 1948.
The course starts as if shot from a canon for the opening six holes covering some testing terrain are terrific. Folks generally don't speak highly of opening par 3s, but Knole Park's is a keeper.
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The second continues the climb to a green benched into the hillside.
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The third is on view while walking up the second, but it isn't until after hitting the drive and walking forward some 100 yards that the hole is properly unveiled.
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After climbing to a pulpit tee, we now drive straight over the third fairway. One has to be long and accurate to gain a view of the green.
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Another uphill shot for the par three 5th.
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An old photo of the 5th taken from the 16th tee overlooking 15 green.
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Tom Simpson claims ownership of what is arguably Knole Park's best hole as he was called in to perform some work sometime just before the start of WWII. Climbing to higher ground, #6 is a perplexing sight from the tee. There is fairway way out left, yet the hole turns right. Great advantage can be had by successfully challenging the centreline bunker. One can layup or play right and still get home, but only if he doesn't mind a blind approach and greenside bunkers cutting off that line. I didn't know what to do with the three distinct choices and that has to be the mark of a good hole.
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One gains a better insight for this remarkable hole from the 16th tee. The course is littered with thousands of small mounds as seen in the left rough; I am told these are ant hills. I suspect the hills had to be levelled to create fairways, it would be interesting to know how the club keeps the fairways ant-free.
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Standing on #7 tee it is difficult to focus on the tee shot for Knole House looms to the right.
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More to folllow.
Ciao
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Sean,
One of my fellow England Deaf Golf Team member is an assistant greenkeeper at Knole Park. I have been meaning go to there sometime.
I have been told by another team mate that Michael a England Deaf Team player is seen cutting the surrounds on the third hole in the pics.
Cheers
Ben
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I played it once and I have good memories of it. It's a great course up with the best in and around London. I am suprised it does not make more 'lists'. Plenty of deer roam around and dont seem too bothered by men with sticks.
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Wow ... I have heard little about this course, but those opening holes are pretty exciting. Perhaps it doesn't get more love because it's a bit of a tough walk?
I have played very very few Abercromby courses -- he didn't leave enough for us -- but it's noteworthy that The Addington also starts with an uphill par-3. I had always assumed that might have resulted from a routing change or something, but here is another opening par-3. Did he ever comment on why he liked to start a course that way? He might be the only golf architect ever who did it deliberately on multiple occasions.
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Sean
The course looks fantastic. I've read a few articles on the opening Knole Park, and none of them mention Braid. Where did you get that information?
Darwin was also involved in that opening day, he partnered with Roger Wethered in a match against two gents I've never heard of before (Peploe and Peacock). Darwin made the comment that Abercromby was very fond of par-3s and always tried to maximize them in his layouts - five seemed to be a good number for him.
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Sean
Long had a curiousity to play Knole Park and your photos are certainly brinigng it to the fore of my mind again. The first 6 do indeed look great and i'm looking forward to seeing the rest.
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Tom - In this case from my memory (think I played it early 80s) the 1st and 18th are in their own pocket of land, so it's probably a bit restrictive. The 1st is probably one of the least good holes. Manor House @ Moretonhampstead is another Abercromby, I think you mention it CG...Knole Park is better in my opinion... perhaps a good solid 5 on your strict scale.
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I wonder if the flattish greens keep the course from being more highly considered. I agree with Sean that the course does have less interesting holes after #8 but some are just as good as the early ones - the par 3 12th especially. But on a fine day, the walk around the course is hard to beat.
As most have noted, the 1st hole is a weak one. The location of the 2nd green and the practice area led me to think that originally the 1st hole might have been a strong par 5, replaced at some point by the short 1st and a new par 4 playing to the original 1st green. The lengths look about right and there are many spots on the course where another hole could have been located. If not, Aber could have done better with the start.
Several years ago I posted some photos taken on a sunnier day than we had.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24547.0.html
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Tom
To the best of my knowledge, Addington was originally meant to start on the current 5th with the house on the hill. Thinking on where #18 is located, it makes sense for viewing play from the house. I don't know why the original plan wasn't carried out.
Tommy Mac
The club website claims Braid was involved with the design.
I wonder if Sam King didn't caddie for Bernardo?
Craig D
The first AND second are fine holes. Using the land for a par 5 would be a slog of over 500 yards uphill - not good.
KNOLE PARK TOUR CONTINUED
The 7th legs around the estate, not a bad par 5, but I think it would make a better par 4. The 8th is an attractive par 3 with a very small green and water tucked down the left.
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The ho-hum golf continues for 9, 10 & 11. Although the 10th recently had a bunker renovation which is meant to match the original design.
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The 11th is very odd for its short turning angle - it somehow doesn't fit with the rest of the course. Luckily, Knole Park hits another purple patch starting on the cracking 12th. Indeed, the three hole stretch starting here is probably the best of the course. Playing all of its 200ish yards, #12 is a very attractive hole with a remarkable ridge cutting unevenly through the green.
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A drivable par 4, 13 offers three distinct choices off the tee, but none are particularly enticing - just the sort of thing a great short 4 needs to be.
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The killer stretch continues with a monster par 4 bending strongly to the right along the oob line. The magnificence of the property is easily appreciated from this fairway.
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The course has been tidied up since my last visit. There used to be a track just shy of the green which needed to be carried and is now grassed over.
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#15, a crazy par 5 rising to a green seemingly miles above the floor of the fairway, exposes the site for its severity. This sort of hole is great for flat bellies. Although, the hole is much better now without rough on the severe upslope.
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Before & after.
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There is a bit of a plateau 40 yards short of the putting surface which will catch out many a golfer because I think this is the location of the original green.
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A look back down the fairway. Around the turn and on parts of the back nine Knole Park's terrain is very reminscent of Cleeve Cloud, but with trees. The turf suggests Knole Park is heathland, but there is a definite downland feel to the site despite the trees.
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The final par 3 rounds off a good set even if it is a take on the front nine's uphill one-shotters, but then I am a big fan of uphill par 3s.
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The course is certainly fizzling out at this point, but the 17th is a good if unspectacular par 5. The one spectacular aspect of the hole is a large slit in the middle of the fairway which I believe is meant to be a bunker. The home hole puts water dead in play.
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Thus ends Knole Park, a very fine course meandering over an outstanding site. It is said the estate lost 70% of trees during the Great Storm. Perhaps this tragedy uncovered outstanding vistas to be had throughout the park. I would like to see photos of the course/park just prior to the storm. I must say the course wasn't firing on all cylinders, but it is easy to see how much more difficult some of the sloping greens would be if the course were keen. Despite some prosaic holes, there are enough lovely examples wonderfully dispersed to keep the golfer engaged for most of the round. One other positive aspect is Knole Park is of its place. One cannot imagine this course would exist anywhere but England. However, I can't help thinking the club would do well to restore something close to the original bunker scheme as the current configuration doesn't add much to the design. As it is, the course is still worth a good detour especially if one can take in Knole House as well.
A special thank you to Craig for introducing me to Knole Park and indulging my fancy with a game. Also, Chappers deserves a pat on the back for keeping Knole Park at the forefront of my thoughts when an opportunity to travel to the southeast arose. 2018
Ciao
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Sean - there was something missing in your photo tour but you pulled it out of the bag in the end the deer - they are part of the charm of Knole Park. I did notice a couple in the picture of the first on a quick review!
I agree with Sean that 1 is a fine opener and the land actually lends itself to a pretty boring par 5 to the second green.
Knole is on a little sandy ridge so the turf is fine and it stays pretty dry in the winter. For those Brits with a county card it's a course not to be missed they'll only charge you £30 a round or £40 for the day, now that's value.
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Thanks, Sean. (Btw, I think you're actually getting better at these sorts of profiles -- and you were no slouch before!). I spotted another of our rare disagreements - the 15th looks to me to be a very fine hole, and (like the 8th at Crystal Downs) one of the few par 5s I really like/like the looks of. (It must be the up-hillness of it). Even though I'm not one of them, I think the flat bellies should get a real advantage once in a while, and leave the rest of us with awkward but not onerous or too challenging 3rd shot approaches - just like here.
Peter
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Thanks for the great reminder Sean, but are you holding something back?
Doesn't the 12th green feature a spine running along the length of it on the LHS?
I remember thinking I'd never seen anything like it.
It was at least 7' high (come on put me right here).
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Littlestone%20GC/Knole%20Park%20GC/022.jpg?t=1343647385)
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Spangles
Yes, the 12th is one of the more interesting greens with its groovy spine. I don't know how high it is, so I will go with your 7 inches.
The next green is pretty good too. Its the old knob green with a front to back surface trick - just my kind of thing - it doesn't look like much but it packs a punch.
Ciao
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It would be very uncomfortable to enjoy venison from the carvery after a round, especially with a crowd of observers like that on the 18th.
Thanks, Sean, for adding yet another course to my wish list. That third green site alone looks worth the trip.
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Craig,
I trust you are well? This thread reminds me that you are/have been in the country at this time and we had loosely discussed meeting up. Alas, I've been unable to get myself to the south east coast this summer, but I'm actually quite glad, as having seen this thread, I really quite fancy a round at Knole Park which I shall now add to the itinerary when I do!
Thanks Sean, some wonderful golfing country out there!
Cheers,
James
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James we've been holding you a room all summer!!
I'm a big fan of Knole Park especially as I've spent most of my life living barely 5 miles from the course. Now I'm living in links land through and through. Sadly had to turn down a round at Royal St George's today with my friends from Pine Valley but meeting them for lunch before heading to the Olympic stadium for the athletics tonight.
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James we've been holding you a room all summer!!
I'm a big fan of Knole Park especially as I've spent most of my life living barely 5 miles from the course. Now I'm living in links land through and through. Sadly had to turn down a round at Royal St George's today with my friends from Pine Valley but meeting them for lunch before heading to the Olympic stadium for the athletics tonight.
Its a tough life! ::)
Cheers,
James
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James - a very enjoyable day it was too!
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Sean, we seem to have played the same two courses over the past week (Littlestone being the other)! I have played Knole park last week, after moving to Sevenoaks. I agree the first is a good hole, with the club watching you, getting immediate knowledge of your start. I thought the course has some great half pars and in the case of the 13th and 14th, play in succession as a 3.5 and 4.5 pars. The course is certainly different and I don't know if this is a strength or a weakness - there are 6 par 3's and 4 par 5's. Is it too short or is there just alot of half par holes?
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Sean, we seem to have played the same two courses over the past week (Littlestone being the other)! I have played Knole park last week, after moving to Sevenoaks. I agree the first is a good hole, with the club watching you, getting immediate knowledge of your start. I thought the course has some great half pars and in the case of the 13th and 14th, play in succession as a 3.5 and 4.5 pars. The course is certainly different and I don't know if this is a strength or a weakness - there are 6 par 3's and 4 par 5's. Is it too short or is there just alot of half par holes?
Ben
I didn't even realize that Knole Park had six par 3 - just like Addington! I spose on severe sites par 3s are easy ways to handle transitions. The par 5s for me are a bit of a let down. I would rather see #7 and #15 as par 4s. I suspect that the tee for #15 is stuffed away from #14 green because of a footpath or some such issue. If the hole could play from somewhere near the 14th green it may make for something better.
Ciao
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Sean, all... I've just been searching for some Tom Simpson quotes for Niall on the camouflage thread and found a lovely essay entitled "Mad Masterpieces - Knole Park Golf Course No.6" in which he describes that although Aber designed the original course, he was called in 15 years later to make alterations, of which the entire 6th hole is one (i.e. his)... He provides a great plan sketch and he relishes in the what he calls the usual outcry from members of "where have you ever seen such a hole?!"... I've never played the course and this is the first time I've seen pictures - looks highly inviting...
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Tom
To the best of my knowledge, Addington was originally meant to start on the current 2nd with house house on the hill. Thinking on where #18 is located, it makes sense for viewing play from the house. I don't know why the original plan wasn't carried out.
Recently played with a guy who's looking into the Addington's history for a Centenary pamphlet next year. He's looking on here at old threads for pictures etc.
However they believe the story that the Clubhouse was to have been railway carriages at the top of the hill but they couldn't get them up there , to be correct. But they were to be sited behind todays 4th green with the fifth originally slated to be the first. So Abercrombie in this case accepted a Par 3 Opening hole, but it wasn't his original intent. Can't help wondering if 5 played a little shorter and was a typical Colt opener, easing you into the round.
I've thought about the original routing and it makes for a very exciting and mixed finish - from today’s 16th, Par runs 5,3,4,3,5,3,4. Also if you look at the aerial it surprisingly central with a no of short loops running from there.
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Sean, all... I've just been searching for some Tom Simpson quotes for Niall on the camouflage thread and found a lovely essay entitled "Mad Masterpieces - Knole Park Golf Course No.6" in which he describes that although Aber designed the original course, he was called in 15 years later to make alterations, of which the entire 6th hole is one (i.e. his)... He provides a great plan sketch and he relishes in the what he calls the usual outcry from members of "where have you ever seen such a hole?!"... I've never played the course and this is the first time I've seen pictures - looks highly inviting...
Ally
So when are you going to post the article and plan sketch?
Ciao
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Sean, all... I've just been searching for some Tom Simpson quotes for Niall on the camouflage thread and found a lovely essay entitled "Mad Masterpieces - Knole Park Golf Course No.6" in which he describes that although Aber designed the original course, he was called in 15 years later to make alterations, of which the entire 6th hole is one (i.e. his)... He provides a great plan sketch and he relishes in the what he calls the usual outcry from members of "where have you ever seen such a hole?!"... I've never played the course and this is the first time I've seen pictures - looks highly inviting...
Ally
So when are you going to post the article and plan sketch?
Ciao
When I get anywhere near a scanner Mr.Arble... Probably next week...
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Sean, all... I've just been searching for some Tom Simpson quotes for Niall on the camouflage thread and found a lovely essay entitled "Mad Masterpieces - Knole Park Golf Course No.6" in which he describes that although Aber designed the original course, he was called in 15 years later to make alterations, of which the entire 6th hole is one (i.e. his)... He provides a great plan sketch and he relishes in the what he calls the usual outcry from members of "where have you ever seen such a hole?!"... I've never played the course and this is the first time I've seen pictures - looks highly inviting...
Ally
So when are you going to post the article and plan sketch?
Ciao
When I get anywhere near a scanner Mr.Arble... Probably next week...
Its the longest week on record! Come on my good man, the 6th is a very intriguing hole!
Ciao
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Bump
Sheehy and I will be playing a match there in 7 days time. I thnk we should be told. ;)
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A return visit for a 36 hole match yesterday prompts a few thoughts.
1
Fine club with welcoming member’s. Sean’s report is great but doesn’t really do the beauty of the place justice. Some very fine views there in an area looks to have a suburban feel.
2
Having just played the Addington again, the comparisons are striking. Anyone but Abercromby might well have avoided some of those climbs, but the result is he certainly produced his fair share of memorable holes. If you love the Addingotn (who doesn’t?) I feel you will also love a game here.
3
Sean is a little harsh on holes 9. 10 and 11. The first is a par 5 here the interest comes from the bunkering – a little unusual for Abercormby – with two to challenge your drive and one in the fairway right where a second shot might land.
4
I am a fan of his 90 degree dogleg 10th at The Addington and he has two of them here. The 4th is distinguished by it’s landform with a tee up high and then playing through a natural valley. It plays R-L. The 11th offers the reverse challenge. Mybe not a really great hole but you have to place your drive well and being able to hit a fade L-R helps too. Are there sharp doglegs to be found on his other courses?
5
The greens were just fast enough to cause nervousness. The 13th being particularly hard to read, but overall they are a pretty subtle an interesting lot.
6
…and another thing.
The 13th has a very cool thing going on. Off the green tees it’s certainly not drivable. So as you stand looking up at for your second shot, what appears to be the front of the green is actually 25 yards short. The ground dips slightly from there before rising to the green again. Subtle visual deception at it’s finest.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Littlestone%20GC/Knole%20Park%20GC/023.jpg?t=1343647393)
6
After 36 holes I was pleased to retire to my bed! I will return every chance I get.
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Spangles
I bet you were tired after walking 36 round Knole Park!
You like the 11th? Even as one who can often hit a sharp slice on demand - I didn't care for the hole. It really stands out as something different from the other holes. 10 too is very odd.
Ciao
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Sean, all... I've just been searching for some Tom Simpson quotes for Niall on the camouflage thread and found a lovely essay entitled "Mad Masterpieces - Knole Park Golf Course No.6" in which he describes that although Aber designed the original course, he was called in 15 years later to make alterations, of which the entire 6th hole is one (i.e. his)... He provides a great plan sketch and he relishes in the what he calls the usual outcry from members of "where have you ever seen such a hole?!"... I've never played the course and this is the first time I've seen pictures - looks highly inviting...
Bumping this thread to the top as having played the course at the weekend in the Jim Goaby Memorial Quaich, it has left a lasting impression. I've put some additional pictures of the course on that thread, which can be found here...(Reply 271)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64000.0.html
I was especially taken with the 6th hole, which Ally describes above. I've added my photo of the hole below (taken from in front of the tees) and an aerial to demonstrate the strategy. For its time it must indeed have been a 'mad masterpiece.' Now, we look at it and applaud the brilliant, lie of the land strategy. Everything good about golf design encapsulated in one hole. Nice work, J.F!
We'd still like to see the original sketch Ally!
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/Knole%20Park/DSCN4268_zpsk4oqzqai.jpg)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/Knole%20Park/Knole%20Park%206%20aerial_zpsqxhe0dzr.jpg)
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Hi Robin,
I can't even remember where I saw that essay but will search it out... I think I was saying that it was Tom Simpson himself who designed the 6th hole, not Aber.
Still haven't seen the course. Still want to.
Ally
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That can be arranged Ally.
The 1940 aerial below shows that the club has added back tees which change the line of tee shot markedly. I can't recall which one we played from. Also, lots of fairway bunkers back then which have been grassed in and evidence of several fresh bomb craters.
Considering that Hitler planned to use Knole House as his UK headquarters you would think he'd have asked the Luftwaffe to be a bit more careful about bombing his garden!
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/Knole%20Park/Knole%206%201940_zps4cor5kab.jpg)
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Jeepers...what a looker. The club does a great job of showcasing the nature of the property with cool interior views and plenty of vegetation on display. One really gets a sense of the land when playing Knole Park.
Ciao
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Bump
another great tour Sean!
Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?
Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.
All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.
Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
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I don't have the diagram handy [and would not know how to post it anyway], but that phalanx of bunkers and the split fairway calls to mind the drawing that Simpson submitted for the Lido competition, that Macdonald et al. used as the basis for the 15th hole at Lido. It's been a while since I looked at the drawing so I can't remember whether the bunkering on the approach was similar or different, but the tee shot is quite similar.
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Bump
another great tour Sean!
Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?
Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.
All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.
Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.
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Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.
I second Mike's recommendation.
Just inside the entry to the men's locker room is the original drawing for the course over the signature block of Fowler, Croome, Simpson and Abercromby. The Secretary told me that Lord Sackville and the members received two plans - one from the Fowler team, the other from James Braid. The members favored the Braid plan but were overruled partly because Braid's plan required more tree removal - an important factor to Sackville. The Braid plan was generally counterclockwise around the property - the reverse of the Fowler/Aber team's. If anyone visits the club, please try to take a photo of the drawing. I'd planned to do that before I left the UK but ran out of time.
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Bump
another great tour Sean!
Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?
Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.
All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.
Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.
Agreed but the Addington takes it a notch higher still.
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Bump
another great tour Sean!
Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?
Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.
All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.
Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.
Agreed but the Addington takes it a notch higher still.
Thanks for all the great advice.
Multiple rounds at Deal may preclude a round or two.
After a round and lunch at RSG, an afternoon round at Walmer and Kingsdown or Northforeland?
Staying in Deal.
Leaning towards W&K based slightly on location..looks like my kind've place as well
Doesn't have to be architectural genius, just a fun afternoon round
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Bump
another great tour Sean!
Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?
Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.
All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.
Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
I would avoid Canterbury. Addington is the best of the 4, but you may head into traffic crap going that way. I think you would prefer RAF over MP.
Ciao
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Jeff when are you in town? Maybe we can have a beer or dinner.
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Knole Park has invested in many new back and forward tees throughout and new bunkering on the 10th. Perhaps more importantly, I really like the cleared rough on the upslope of 15. Anyway, I came away a bit more impressed than on my previous visit...though I am still unclear as to the best way to play #6 8) See the updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53010.0.html
Ciao
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Sean
I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.
They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.
Ants
[/size]The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.[/color]
[/size]The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.[/color]
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Sean
I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.
They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.
Ants
The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.
The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.
good gracious
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Sean
I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.
They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.
Ants
The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.
The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.
Doc
Thats quite interesting. Presumably the club had to clear ant hills when the fairways were prepared. Do you think some fairways or parts of were routed to avoid anthills?
Ciao
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Sean
I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.
They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.
Ants
The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.
The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.
Doc
Thats quite interesting. Presumably the club had to clear ant hills when the fairways were prepared. Do you think some fairways or parts of were routed to avoid anthills?
Ciao
How could you possibly tell at this distance?
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Personally, I doubt it. I didn't sense any unnatural diversions.
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Personally, I doubt it. I didn't sense any unnatural diversions.
Do you know what prompted the 4th being changed into the awkward hole it is? This is the one hole which doesn't make sense to me in terms of the routing or how it plays.
Ciao
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I was briefly a member at Knole Park when I lived in Kent and have a copy of "The Story of Knole Park" which was written in 1989 by a former captain, David Boe. It answers a few of the questions raised in this thread, although not for everything. From what I can glean:
James Braid was asked to prepare a preliminary survey before the members broke away from Wildernesse. It was in September 1923 that Lord Sackville, who owned Knole Park agreed to allow a golf course to be built. In a Special General Meeting held in October 1923, where they agreed to break away, it was mentioned that Braid had consulted on the feasibility of a course on the land. Abercromby was consulted for a second opinion a month or so later. Of the two plans, the owner of property, Lord Sackville, favoured Braid’s because it called for the felling of fewer trees (not the other way round). It is not clear why Abercromby’s was chosen.
here is no mention of the clubhouse being by proposed as being near the 5th tee. Abercromby’s routing started from the present 1st and was provided to the club in December 1923. There is an inference that the other routing (Braid’s) is reported to have started in the same spot and was the reverse of the Abercromby version. It was always part of the plan for Lord Sackville to build the clubhouse and rent it to the club.
Regarding the opening match, George Peacock was the first professional at the club and Andrew Peacock, also a professional, who played in the first match was his brother. Dan Peploe was a scratch golfer and head of the greens committee when the course was built.
The 4th tee was originally on the ledge below the 3rd green (on the left). The drive for the 4th was over the hillside called Spion Kop and was a very long carry over bracken. Instead, many, especially the ladies, ended up playing back down the 3rd fairway first, before turning the corner so they decided to build the new tee where it is today.
Although Abercromby laid it out as a Par 72 (6 of each), in the early years it was wet and so the 3rd, 18th, 6th and 14th were, briefly, par 5s as the course played so long. This was changed back to a Par 72 over time and remained that way until 1965. Contrary to Abercromby’s routing, the original 18th tee was almost as far back as the 2nd green with stray balls being hit directly over the 17th green. This was when it was a Par 5 but it was shortened soon after opening, and reverted to a Par 4, for safety reasons.
The 15th green was originally on the ledge below the current green before being moved back in 1965 by 30 yards to its present, blind, location. This was in order to add length in order to make it a Par 70 as the English Golf Union rated it a 69 under their new rules at the time. New tees were also added at 7, 10, 13 and 16 for the same reason.
There is no mention of any changes to 6th or of Tom Simpson. However, around the time of the war, and c15 years after the club opened, G Simpson was secretary at the club.
I hope that helps fill in some blanks.
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Adam
Thanks for your post. It is especially enlightening about the 15th. The hole does look "wrong" now and I bet tons of people play to the old green either by mistake or necessity.
Its also interesting that Aber laid out the course as 6/6/6!
Ciao
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Wonderful stuff Sean. I think I must have been asleep when this thread was top of the charts previously as I can't recall seeing it. A couple of belated comments;
I note the plan at the top of the thread has a sketch of a green that looks very much like it was Simpsons handiwork. Does that maybe mean that the layout as shown was Simpsons revised course ?
Secondly with regards the wonderful looking 6th hole, (I imagine) you almost need to see it on plan or in an aerial to make sense of it. Presumably the photos were taken from the raised tees on higher ground ?
With reference to the proposed Embo development I was going to comment on the Embo thread about the shape of some of the proposed holes with their split fairways offset from each other, and say that is something you don't really see on classic layouts but perhaps this hole proves the lie to that assertion.
Niall
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Wonderful stuff Sean. I think I must have been asleep when this thread was top of the charts previously as I can't recall seeing it. A couple of belated comments;
I note the plan at the top of the thread has a sketch of a green that looks very much like it was Simpsons handiwork. Does that maybe mean that the layout as shown was Simpsons revised course ?
Secondly with regards the wonderful looking 6th hole, (I imagine) you almost need to see it on plan or in an aerial to make sense of it. Presumably the photos were taken from the raised tees on higher ground ?
With reference to the proposed Embo development I was going to comment on the Embo thread about the shape of some of the proposed holes with their split fairways offset from each other, and say that is something you don't really see on classic layouts but perhaps this hole proves the lie to that assertion.
Niall
Niall
So far as I am aware, the map posted is the original. I don't think Simpson got involved as a solo artist until shortly before WWII. The 2nd photo of #6 is from the 16th tee. The hole is quite disorientating from the tee because its hard to know what the carry is on the left as that is the best line into the green.
Ciao
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Sean
That's an interesting comment about the 6th. I do wonder how easy it is to pull off those kind of holes, especially for visitor play and especially of there is a degree of blindness.
Niall
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Sean
That's an interesting comment about the 6th. I do wonder how easy it is to pull off those kind of holes, especially for visitor play and especially of there is a degree of blindness.
Niall
Niall
In a way you are getting at the heart of architecture. Back in Simpson's day I strongly suspect there were fewer social constraints on design. Archies were already systematically eliminating the more Victorian aspects of design by choice. Having the odd hole which is, well visually odd, must not have seemed a big deal for many, especially if the setting is at all special. Today, archies fret over the smallest detail and how it will be received by the customers and dealt with by maintenance practices. In other words, the pay-off is extremely important these days. Its no wonder archies don't go far out on a limb and what a shame that is. I think if given a completely free hand, the archies of ths recent renaissance would have produced more varied and interesting designs.
Ciao
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Sean
You may be right about not having to stick to any convention but I also tend to think that the gca's of that period, in the UK at least, "benefitted" from not having the same earth moving equipment they have now and perhaps therefore had to show a bit more ingenuity to deal with the lay of the land.
Not saying that was what happened here as it looks as though from the photo that a more conventional fairway design would have been possible. Either way, it makes for interesting golf.
Niall