Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tom_Doak on July 11, 2012, 02:43:45 PM
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After my trip to the Dakotas last week, I have reviews of courses in 43 states for the next edition of The Confidential Guide. Before publication -- two years away at the earliest -- I'm determined to include at least one course worth reviewing in every state, except Alaska, unless someone convinces me there is a course there that deserves a special trip.
The other states I am missing are New Hampshire, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Wyoming, and Utah.
If I am going to review just one or two courses in those states, which would be of most interest to readers? The only one I've got a good list for is Utah -- courtesy of Matt Ward! -- where I hope to see Red Ledges, Promontory, Glenwild, and/or Sand Hollow.
I will ask for similar help for overseas destinations another day. For now, please keep your recommendations to the six states I've listed. Thanks for your help.
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How about The (Salt Lake City) Country Club? As one of the oldest clubs west of the Mississippi that would seem to be interesting. Willie Watson was involved in original design/layout (according to their website) w/ recent work done by Harbottle.
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The Balsams in NH?
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Bald Peak (Ross) in NH. Make it a family vacation.
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Arkansas
Alotian Club
Louisiana
Metairie (Raynor)
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I agree with Bill on Bald Peak Colony in NH. In addition, I have heard (haven't seen it yet post-reno) that Brian Silva's restoration of Ross's design of the Bretton Woods (Mount Washington) course is great. Both places are also incredibly nice places to take a family vacation.
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Arkansas
Alotian Club
I've heard that The Alotian Club asks visitors to sign something saying they will not rate the golf course. If so, that would kind of defeat the purpose of a visit ... but they will definitely get a "mention" in The Confidential Guide if that's really their policy.
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probably Fallen Oak in MS Tom
I also just played the course at the Omni Resort in NH , a Ross worked on by Silva...greens were VERY/TOO slow, however...and Carl is right, the hotel there is fabulous
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Texarkana CC in Arkansas, a Langford/Moreau where Byron Nelson once served as the head pro. Has had some renovation work done, and not sure how much of Langford/Moreau's style remains, but I believe the original routing is still intact.
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Bald Peak (Ross) in NH. Make it a family vacation.
That sounds nice, but my next two family vacations are likely to be at Rock Creek (Montana) and Banff. Plus we live in Traverse City.
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Rochelle Ranch in Wyoming.
There were a few threads awhile back that looked compelling. Architect's name rings a bell...
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Bald Peak (Ross) in NH. Make it a family vacation.
That sounds nice, but my next two family vacations are likely to be at Rock Creek (Montana) and Banff. Plus we live in Traverse City.
So if it's just you, fly into Boston or Manchester, NH; drive up to Bald Peak (on Lake Winnipesaukee); drive to Bretton Woods/Mount Washington; then back to Manchester/Boston.
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Arkansas
Alotian Club
I've heard that The Alotian Club asks visitors to sign something saying they will not rate the golf course. If so, that would kind of defeat the purpose of a visit ... but they will definitely get a "mention" in The Confidential Guide if that's really their policy.
Interesting. Then there are at least 45 offenders and/or members that helped the club secure its #14 ranking in Golf Digest.
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Squier Creek CC is the course in Louisiana. If you'd like more info or an introduction send me a PM.
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How about Hanover CC (the Dartmouth course)? Sounds like a distinctive one, inspiring divided views.
From the Website (http://golf.dartmouth.edu/course/map/index.html (http://golf.dartmouth.edu/course/map/index.html):
Hanover Country Club is an 18 hole championship course that underwent a major renovation in 2001. The course was lengthened to 6500 yards, four new holes were added, and all 18 greens were reconstructed with distinctive Donald Ross style features under the design and direction of golf architect, Ron Prichard. It is the home of the Men's and Women's Dartmouth golf teams and the Hanover High School State Champion team. We are a semi-private club and welcome public play.
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If you are looking for a course in New Hampshire, I recommend The Balsam Resort - Panorama Course. Donald Ross course circa 1912 - 1915. Although, the resort is closed until 2013 for renovations - not sure if the golf course is open or not?
Chris
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Tom, I'm curious which courses you saw/played in the Dakotas during your trip last week.
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Tom, in UT please don't miss The Country Club in Salt Lake. I'd also be interested in seeing a rating of Victory Ranch (especially if you would make a comment about how well or not Rees Jones used the property).
In Wyoming be sure to visit Shooting Star. Of the 40ish Tom Fazio designs I've seen I think it may be his best. Certainly among his top-5. If in the Jackson area already to see SS, it would make sense to see Huntsman Springs (just over the mountain in Idaho), 3 Creek Ranch, and Teton Pines.
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How about Hanover CC (the Dartmouth course)? Sounds like a distinctive one, inspiring divided views.
Have played it many times, both before and after a substantial renovation that added several new holes. It's a better course now, but the old version had a lot more quirk (it still certainly has some). I wouldn't go out of my way to play it.
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Squier Creek CC is the course in Louisiana. If you'd like more info or an introduction send me a PM.
Kyle,
Is that better than The Bluffs on Thompson Creek - if it is still open? - I saw it in 2000
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Also in Mississippi--Old Waverley and the 2 courses in Philadelphia (Pearl River Casino).
In Arkansas,Michael Wharton-Palmer would be the guy to ask.
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Kingswood in Moultonboro, NH is a Ross worth seeing if you're in the area. Very old school with some surprising elevation changes used to good effect. Probably not the one course to see in the state (Bald Peak, the Balsams?), but I was pleasantly surprised when I played it a couple years ago.
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How about Hanover CC (the Dartmouth course)? Sounds like a distinctive one, inspiring divided views.
Have played it many times, both before and after a substantial renovation that added several new holes. It's a better course now, but the old version had a lot more quirk (it still certainly has some). I wouldn't go out of my way to play it.
Thanks. But isn't that exactly the sort of guidance one wants from The Confidential Guide?
(Besides, if you're in New Hampshire, you don't have to go out of your way! [Emoticon omitted.])
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Squier Creek CC is the course in Louisiana. If you'd like more info or an introduction send me a PM.
Kyle,
Is that better than The Bluffs on Thompson Creek - if it is still open? - I saw it in 2000
I've only played The Bluffs once, but that was enough to absolutely favor Squier Creek.
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From my home state of Oregon, I'd be curious for Tom's input on a lot of the newer Central Oregon courses.
He may very well have checked some of them out during construction of the now defunct Wicked Pony.
But I'm curious for his take on both Pronghorns, Tetherow, Juniper, Aspen Lakes, and Brasada.
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Tom, I'm curious which courses you saw/played in the Dakotas during your trip last week.
Jim:
I played the Golf Club at Red Rock in Rapid City, SD -- designed by my old friend, Ron Farris, who posts here on occasion [and who is the project manager for my project in China right now]. After that, a friend and I went up and played the North Dakota Golf Challenge -- Bully Pulpit, The Links of North Dakota, and Hawktree.
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Tom,
How was the conditioning at Links of ND & Bully Pulpit? The latter experienced quite a bit of flood damage last year.
TK
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Tom,
I'll second Old Waverly. It is a very fun course and more than a bit challenging. They are very friendly to military types from nearby Columbus AFB and offer a tremendous deal for membership during transient 3 yr tours there. I can arrange a member for you, and you might even get to add to your "coin" collection.
Also, Dancing Rabbit is worthy of a mention in Mississippi.
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Tom,
I'm not sure how much Promontory is worth a look. I've got the courses rated at a 6 and 5 on your scale.
I haven't played SLCC, but I've seen it up close several times and hard to see it being much more than a 5 as well.
Sand Hollow could very well be the best Utah has to offer....
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Tom,
How was the conditioning at Links of ND & Bully Pulpit? The latter experienced quite a bit of flood damage last year.
TK
The conditioning at all three N.D. courses was reasonably good. I was told about the flood damage at Bully Pulpit, but I really wouldn't have known from playing it ... except if they had more grass in the native rough areas. The Links of N.D. was probably in the roughest shape of the three, but just fine for a $60 public golf course. I wasn't expecting Augusta.
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Tom,
I'm not sure how much Promontory is worth a look. I've got the courses rated at a 6 and 5 on your scale.
I haven't played SLCC, but I've seen it up close several times and hard to see it being much more than a 5 as well.
Sand Hollow could very well be the best Utah has to offer....
Kalen:
If there are any courses in any of these states that rate higher than a 6 on the Doak scale, I will be pleasantly surprised ... if not mildly shocked. A 6 is pretty good stuff.
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Tom,
I'll second Old Waverly. It is a very fun course and more than a bit challenging. They are very friendly to military types from nearby Columbus AFB and offer a tremendous deal for membership during transient 3 yr tours there. I can arrange a member for you, and you might even get to add to your "coin" collection.
Also, Dancing Rabbit is worthy of a mention in Mississippi.
TD,
Stop and play Beau Pre in Natchez Miss....I built it for a good number and on pure sand...I don't know how good of shape it is but I would put it with some of the others mentioned if in good condition...
Ben, go play it...neat town also....
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Tom,
I am very excited to see what you think of the Utah courses. My parents retired to St. George and I have played Sand Hollow many times and I have really enjoyed it every time. It has an especially fun and beautiful back nine. I have it as a 6 on my list and is the best course I have played in Utah. If you are in the area to play Sand Hollow, you may want to play Entrada. It is not as good as Sand Hollow, but definitely worth the play if you are in the area as it has some dramatic holes that are cut through black lava rock.
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If there are any courses in any of these states that rate higher than a 6 on the Doak scale, I will be pleasantly surprised ... if not mildly shocked.
I suspect you're right in this regard; any course that might be found in the upper tier(s) of your criteria probably wouldn't have gone under your radar during the past 30 years. That said, if you're only expecting middle of the road golf courses, the TPC of Louisiana would be worth a look.
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest. Or maybe I'm just the only person who can't read Tom's mind.
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Tom:
It would help me if I know how you approached the first Confidential Guide.
If you can send me a hardcover copy of the first Confidential Guide, I am sure that I can provide some insightful ideas for courses in these states ;D.
I really have to get that library copy back ... it has been several years overdue now (just kidding JK!).
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Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest.
Doak 8.
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George,
I have to expect that you are referring to my previous statement that Sand Hollow was a 6 on my list. Notice that I did not state that it was a Doak 6. I don't think anybody is trying to read Tom's mind (at least I am not). I don't think Tom Doak invented the 0-10 rating system, but he has given a good explanation of his own system. If many of us choose to adapt aspects we like about his system and apply our own take on it, then that is our prerogative. I can guarantee that my system is more lenient than Tom's because the repertoire of great courses I have played pails in comparison to his.
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George,
I have to expect that you are referring to my previous statement that Sand Hollow was a 6 on my list. Notice that I did not state that it was a Doak 6. I don't think anybody is trying to read Tom's mind (at least I am not). I don't think Tom Doak invented the 0-10 rating system, but he has given a good explanation of his own system. If many of us choose to adapt aspects we like about his system and apply our own take on it, then that is our prerogative. I can guarantee that my system is more lenient than Tom's because the repertoire of great courses I have played pails in comparison to his.
You might have to believe that, but you would be wrong. :) Actually, my post was mostly the result of my good friend Kalen declaring Doak #s for the Utah courses, coupled with my 12 years on here, reading #s others post, then seeing what Tom has to say.
There's just something weird to me about someone throwing out a number that they believe someone else would give, when they do not have the same experiences of that person.
Having said that, Dan's post is hilarious, to me at least, which is not at all surprising.
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Arkansas
Alotian Club
I've heard that The Alotian Club asks visitors to sign something saying they will not rate the golf course. If so, that would kind of defeat the purpose of a visit ... but they will definitely get a "mention" in The Confidential Guide if that's really their policy.
I didn't sign one.
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Will the updated Guide include commentary on your designs as well?
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
George, yes it certainly is unusual that others post Doak ratings (not that I don't do it). At the end of the day, the Doak scale gives a definition of a score from 0-10. That actual words Tom used to define the ratings means less to me than the courses that were assigned each number.
Using only courses I've seen from The Confidential Guide...
10 - Shinnecock; Crystal Downs; Muirfield = top-25 world
9 - Prairie Dunes; The Golf Club; Sand Hills = top-25 US / top-50 world
8 - Southern Hills; St George's; Lahinch = top 50 US / top-100 world
7 - Hamilton; Pasatiempo; World Woods; Franklin Hills = top 100 US
6 - Canterbury; Oak Tree National; Crag Burn = Top 100 Modern or Classic / Candidates for top 100 US
5 - Spanish Bay / East Lake / Royal Aberdeen = Top 200 Modern or Classic
Anything 4 or below would likely only be found on a best-in-state list (US courses only).
I am sure this is not how Tom sees his rankings, but it's basically how I convert Doak scores.
On that note, Shooting Star is top-25 modern, and for me is comfortably among the best 100 courses in the United States = 7
I think Promontory (Dye) is Top 100 modern = 6
Salt Lake CC is currently Top 200 Classic = 5
Glenwild is Top 200 modern = 5
I think Victory Ranch could be Top 200 Modern = 5
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George,
I have to expect that you are referring to my previous statement that Sand Hollow was a 6 on my list. Notice that I did not state that it was a Doak 6. I don't think anybody is trying to read Tom's mind (at least I am not). I don't think Tom Doak invented the 0-10 rating system, but he has given a good explanation of his own system. If many of us choose to adapt aspects we like about his system and apply our own take on it, then that is our prerogative. I can guarantee that my system is more lenient than Tom's because the repertoire of great courses I have played pails in comparison to his.
You might have to believe that, but you would be wrong. :) Actually, my post was mostly the result of my good friend Kalen declaring Doak #s for the Utah courses, coupled with my 12 years on here, reading #s others post, then seeing what Tom has to say.
There's just something weird to me about someone throwing out a number that they believe someone else would give, when they do not have the same experiences of that person.
Having said that, Dan's post is hilarious, to me at least, which is not at all surprising.
George,
Thanks for the clarification and I agree that Dan's post was well timed and well delivered! I agree that it is very hard to determine what someone else would score a course, especially someone who has played most of the great courses in the world.
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George,
I'm not sure why others' proclamations make you blush. ;)
I've explained several times, just like others have, that the numbers we give them are based on the descriptions as found on the Doak Scale itself:
http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/the-doak-scale/
Whether Tom, you, or anyone else on this site agrees or disagree with my assessments doesn't matter. Its how I personally align them based on where I think it fits best. It is interesting to note that of all the Doak courses Tom has rated, and that I've personally played, my ranking never deviates more than 1 point away.
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In NH, the interesting courses that would be at the top of my list are Hanover CC (cool history, some neat terrain, very fun) and Mt. Washington, which is one of my favorite courses in NH. If you visit Hanover, Lake Sunapee is nearby and might be worth checking out. I was also pleasantly surprised by Baker Hill, which was unlike any other Rees Jones course I have played.
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest. Or maybe I'm just the only person who can't read Tom's mind.
George, those "Doak'' ratings by anyone other than Tom Doak should really be called "Dork" ratings.
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Arkansas
Alotian Club
I've heard that The Alotian Club asks visitors to sign something saying they will not rate the golf course. If so, that would kind of defeat the purpose of a visit ... but they will definitely get a "mention" in The Confidential Guide if that's really their policy.
Interesting. Then there are at least 45 offenders and/or members that helped the club secure its #14 ranking in Golf Digest.
Howard, maybe they took that stance after they got the rating they were looking for. Best golf course built since Sand Hills is not a bad title to have! Should be good to go for 8 years.
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest. Or maybe I'm just the only person who can't read Tom's mind.
George:
I think your formula is about right. I don't mind people trying to use my scale, but it's hard for them to do so without it sounding like it's my rating and not theirs ... and that's the part that's sometimes bothersome. In fact, one reason to update the book is to provide my own ratings for some more courses, so that others will stop posting inflated ratings.
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In NH, check out Lake Winnipesaukee Golf Club near Wolfeboro. Clive Clark design I believe...
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I was also pleasantly surprised by Baker Hill, which was unlike any other Rees Jones course I have played.
Dan:
That quote deserves a bit more explanation.
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest. Or maybe I'm just the only person who can't read Tom's mind.
George:
I think your formula is about right. I don't mind people trying to use my scale, but it's hard for them to do so without it sounding like it's my rating and not theirs ... and that's the part that's sometimes bothersome. In fact, one reason to update the book is to provide my own ratings for some more courses, so that others will stop posting inflated ratings.
Funny, I find that it depends on the type. Championship courses tend to be Doak Score minus 1 or 2. 2nd/3rd tier courses tend to be Doak Score plus 1 or 2.
Ciao
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
George, yes it certainly is unusual that others post Doak ratings (not that I don't do it). At the end of the day, the Doak scale gives a definition of a score from 0-10. That actual words Tom used to define the ratings means less to me than the courses that were assigned each number.
Using only courses I've seen from The Confidential Guide...
10 - Shinnecock; Crystal Downs; Muirfield = top-25 world
9 - Prairie Dunes; The Golf Club; Sand Hills = top-25 US / top-50 world
8 - Southern Hills; St George's; Lahinch = top 50 US / top-100 world
7 - Hamilton; Pasatiempo; World Woods; Franklin Hills = top 100 US
6 - Canterbury; Oak Tree National; Crag Burn = Top 100 Modern or Classic / Candidates for top 100 US
5 - Spanish Bay / East Lake / Royal Aberdeen = Top 200 Modern or Classic
Anything 4 or below would likely only be found on a best-in-state list (US courses only).
I am sure this is not how Tom sees his rankings, but it's basically how I convert Doak scores.
On that note, Shooting Star is top-25 modern, and for me is comfortably among the best 100 courses in the United States = 7
I think Promontory (Dye) is Top 100 modern = 6
Salt Lake CC is currently Top 200 Classic = 5
Glenwild is Top 200 modern = 5
I think Victory Ranch could be Top 200 Modern = 5
Hmm no response. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
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If you're on the fence about Hanover CC, I'll vouch for its quirk. There used to be a ski jump in the middle of the back nine; I don't recall whether they took it down during the Prichard renovation, but the fact that it was there is a pretty good indication of how severe the terrain is on a number of holes. Not much Ron could do about that.
There is an interesting side note on the course's history: Ralph Barton was a Dartmouth grad and learned the game on the Hanover Country Club course. He was hired as a math professor at the University of Minnesota, and he helped start both the University of Minnesota course and Midland Hills Country Club. He was instrumental in hiring Seth Raynor to design Midland Hills, and became his on-site foreman while the course was being built. Barton learned so much from Raynor -- and carried out his instructions so well -- that Raynor hired him away from the University of Minnesota to work for him fulltime. Barton eventually went into golf course design on his own, and one of the courses he worked on was -- Hanover Country Club. He designed nine new holes at Hanover CC, but I believe they fell into disuse by the '60s, except for a couple that were located on the east side of Lyme Road and were used as practice holes when I was there in the '70s.
I doubt that any of that makes Hanover CC a must-see course, however.
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
George, yes it certainly is unusual that others post Doak ratings (not that I don't do it). At the end of the day, the Doak scale gives a definition of a score from 0-10. That actual words Tom used to define the ratings means less to me than the courses that were assigned each number.
Using only courses I've seen from The Confidential Guide...
10 - Shinnecock; Crystal Downs; Muirfield = top-25 world
9 - Prairie Dunes; The Golf Club; Sand Hills = top-25 US / top-50 world
8 - Southern Hills; St George's; Lahinch = top 50 US / top-100 world
7 - Hamilton; Pasatiempo; World Woods; Franklin Hills = top 100 US
6 - Canterbury; Oak Tree National; Crag Burn = Top 100 Modern or Classic / Candidates for top 100 US
5 - Spanish Bay / East Lake / Royal Aberdeen = Top 200 Modern or Classic
Anything 4 or below would likely only be found on a best-in-state list (US courses only).
I am sure this is not how Tom sees his rankings, but it's basically how I convert Doak scores.
On that note, Shooting Star is top-25 modern, and for me is comfortably among the best 100 courses in the United States = 7
I think Promontory (Dye) is Top 100 modern = 6
Salt Lake CC is currently Top 200 Classic = 5
Glenwild is Top 200 modern = 5
I think Victory Ranch could be Top 200 Modern = 5
Hmm no response. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Was there a question? Kalen said the same thing you did without noting the courses he's played.
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Sven, I can't find a post by Kalen where he says the same thing I did. There was no question. I said that the definitions Doak used for his scores are not how I determine the ratings I give, but rather think of each number as corresponding to a ranking (as I laid out above). The courses I listed are used as benchmarks for me. I was curious if others think of the scores in a similar way or simply use Tom's definitions.
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Tom, I'm curious which courses you saw/played in the Dakotas during your trip last week.
Jim:
I played the Golf Club at Red Rock in Rapid City, SD -- designed by my old friend, Ron Farris, who posts here on occasion [and who is the project manager for my project in China right now]. After that, a friend and I went up and played the North Dakota Golf Challenge -- Bully Pulpit, The Links of North Dakota, and Hawktree.
My wife and I enjoyed Red Rock last summer. And we've played the Challenge several times.
Very curious as to your thoughts on the Links of ND. We last played it 2 or 3 years ago; they were just about to re-seed their fairways with a different type of bentgrass, which surprised me, thought they might switch to kentucky blues, less headaches I would think.
Sorry, don't mean to thread-jack.
Jim
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If you're on the fence about Hanover CC, I'll vouch for its quirk. There used to be a ski jump in the middle of the back nine; I don't recall whether they took it down during the Prichard renovation, but the fact that it was there is a pretty good indication of how severe the terrain is on a number of holes. Not much Ron could do about that.
There is an interesting side note on the course's history: Ralph Barton was a Dartmouth grad and learned the game on the Hanover Country Club course. He was hired as a math professor at the University of Minnesota, and he helped start both the University of Minnesota course and Midland Hills Country Club. He was instrumental in hiring Seth Raynor to design Midland Hills, and became his on-site foreman while the course was being built. Barton learned so much from Raynor -- and carried out his instructions so well -- that Raynor hired him away from the University of Minnesota to work for him fulltime. Barton eventually went into golf course design on his own, and one of the courses he worked on was -- Hanover Country Club. He designed nine new holes at Hanover CC, but I believe they fell into disuse by the '60s, except for a couple that were located on the east side of Lyme Road and were used as practice holes when I was there in the '70s.
I doubt that any of that makes Hanover CC a must-see course, however.
Rick:
I think they took the ski jump down before the Prichard renovation -- there were safety concerns that prompted its removal (plus it wasn't getting used . . . at least officially).
I agree with what many on here have said about Hanover CC. But I don't think any of it makes it the first course I would recommend Tom visit in NH.
PS: I think the practice holes across Lyme road may still be there, but now that there's almost a full hole practice area on the course's side of the road, I'm not sure they get much use.
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After my trip to the Dakotas last week, I have reviews of courses in 43 states for the next edition of The Confidential Guide. Before publication -- two years away at the earliest -- I'm determined to include at least one course worth reviewing in every state, except Alaska, unless someone convinces me there is a course there that deserves a special trip.
The other states I am missing are New Hampshire, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Wyoming, and Utah.
If I am going to review just one or two courses in those states, which would be of most interest to readers? The only one I've got a good list for is Utah -- courtesy of Matt Ward! -- where I hope to see Red Ledges, Promontory, Glenwild, and/or Sand Hollow.
I will ask for similar help for overseas destinations another day. For now, please keep your recommendations to the six states I've listed. Thanks for your help.
Tom,
For those of us who are in the not-completely-initiated category, would you have time for a little background? I took a look at an early edition of the guide in a bookstore in the Village of Pinehurst five or six years ago, but did not want to spring for the book at the $$$$ they were asking. Here are some of the thngs I'd like to know (maybe just answer by reference to other threads on this site).
A brief history of the guide? What is the scope of the revision? Are you just adding new courses? Are you going to include peviously-rated courses and ratings on an updated, or not, basis? In general, how do you decide what courses to include? For example, why not the "best in Alaska"? Granted, it would be an expensive and time-consuming trip (I know, because I'm going there in several weeks, though not for golf), but what the heck. For the folks there, those courses are all they've got. What are the ratings criteria? (I've seen those, but don't recall where.) Anything else by way of background?
Thanks, Carl
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Tom - along the lines of Carl's post (sorry, just saw it):
aside from the changes that have occurred in/with you over three decades, what would you say is the single biggest/most important change in the 'rating environment' since you first published CG? And, if you can pin point that, do you think that this change has/will in turn affected how you are approaching/writing this new version?
Peter
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Tom,
For those of us who are in the not-completely-initiated category, would you have time for a little background? I took a look at an early edition of the guide in a bookstore in the Village of Pinehurst five or six years ago, but did not want to spring for the book at the $$$$ they were asking. Here are some of the thngs I'd like to know (maybe just answer by reference to other threads on this site).
A brief history of the guide? What is the scope of the revision? Are you just adding new courses? Are you going to include peviously-rated courses and ratings on an updated, or not, basis? In general, how do you decide what courses to include? For example, why not the "best in Alaska"? Granted, it would be an expensive and time-consuming trip (I know, because I'm going there in several weeks, though not for golf), but what the heck. For the folks there, those courses are all they've got. What are the ratings criteria? (I've seen those, but don't recall where.) Anything else by way of background?
Thanks, Carl
Carl:
Just as well you did not spring for the $$$, since a new edition will make the collectors' value of the previous editions go down considerably.
The original edition of The Confidential Guide was given to 40 of the people who had helped me the most in completing my travels around the golf world from 1980-87. The intent was to repay them by sharing what I'd learned about which courses were worth the effort to visit. It also allowed me to muse on my thoughts about good and bad golf architecture, through the prism of course reviews.
I had never considered publishing the book, but once the word was out about it in the golf business, I'd get calls from people who had pirate copies, and all sorts of feedback about it and requests for it ... and all that before the internet existed! Anyway, I was encouraged by several people to get it out to a wider audience, and when times got slow for my fledgling design business in the mid-90's, I put it out there -- first in a limited edition of 1000 copies [with no pictures], and later in a "real" published version which sold 12,000 copies.
I have not revisited the book since 1996, because I agreed with several friends' advice that it would be unwise to play both designer and critic at the same time. But I've missed getting out to see others' work (old and new), and I've missed writing about golf courses. But with the boom in building new courses about over, I've got the time to think about a thorough revision. And my status in the business is secure enough now that I don't think I'll be criticized as writing the book to advance my design career.
The original book included reviews of EVERY course I had ever seen -- one of the most controversial parts of it was that it had merciless reviews of some courses that were never intended to be anything more than a place to hit it around. The new version will have many more courses to draw from, and there won't be room for them all, so the focus will shift to courses I would recommend for you to play. The old reviews will be thoroughly edited if I've seen the course again, and maybe even if I haven't. The book will still be critical -- it wouldn't be true to the original if it wasn't dead honest and no-holds-barred -- but it probably won't rankle as many people this way. [Or maybe it will, since other designers aren't busy, either, and will have plenty of time to complain.]
I would like to include as many places around the world as I can -- some people will be surprised at the scope of it -- because golf is more of a worldwide game than it was 20 years ago, and there is a whole new audience for the book IF it includes enough courses that potential readers have played. But I'm thinking that Alaska is one place few people would ever think of traveling with their clubs, so unless someone tells me of a great course in Alaska that's flying under the radar, I'll probably skip going there, and go review somewhere more interesting, like, say the Himalayan Golf Club in Nepal. [Google it, and let me know if you see anything similar in Alaska.]
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Tom - along the lines of Carl's post (sorry, just saw it):
aside from the changes that have occurred in/with you over three decades, what would you say is the single biggest/most important change in the 'rating environment' since you first published CG? And, if you can pin point that, do you think that this change has/will in turn affected how you are approaching/writing this new version?
Peter
Peter:
When I first wrote The Confidential Guide, I included a lot of "hidden gem" courses that were really completely unknown to most readers -- UK readers may have known of Pennard or Woodhall Spa, but Americans certainly did not; and American readers may have heard of Crystal Downs, but knew nothing about it. And hardly any of them had ever been to Kingston Heath or Cape Breton Highlands. Today, of course, there are so many more "rankings" out there with so many courses named on one list or another, but without any real information about them, and there are plenty of photos of many of them on Golf Club Atlas, but often without a simple and clear recommendation of whether they are worth the effort or not. I think all of that will drive the demand for reviews.
Also, as I said to Carl, the game has much more of a foothold in Asia and Europe today, and I think it's important to start educating those golfers on the difference between expensive courses and really good ones. But, I've got to have enough examples of golf courses in China and South Korea and Europe to make it work. People decide to buy the book by reading my reviews of courses they've played, so there's got to be enough common ground between their world and mine to draw them in.
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Tom,
If you are doing a great circle route to Asia Anchorage is on the way. Three of the top 5 courses are comfortably within an hour of the Anchorage airport (Eagleglen, Moose Run and Anchorage). I haven't played any of those but I did play Settlers Bay in Wasilla, probably in mid 1970s, with an extra set of clubs my relatives had. Back then I thought it was a notch below any of the second rung of Oregon courses of that era but way better than the Lake Vancouver course.
Tiger Bernhardt could give you the best rundown on Louisiana.
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Mark:
Don't mind me, I'm just cranky today.
Tom:
This statement from your last post raised my eyebrows:
"I think it's important to start educating those golfers on the difference between expensive courses and really good ones."
1. Begs the question if inexpensive good courses can be found in Asia (I'm assuming there are a few in Europe), or if you were discussing recommendation for travelers from those areas when they are abroad.
2. I'd love to see a list of U.S. courses that are expensive but not really good. I've got a couple I'd recommend, but I'd prefer not to pick on the general Orlando area in that way.
3. How much does this equation come into play: High cost to play = big maintenance budget = being rated highly by those who value conditioning more than other factors?
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Tom:
This statement from your last post raised my eyebrows:
"I think it's important to start educating those golfers on the difference between expensive courses and really good ones."
1. Begs the question if inexpensive good courses can be found in Asia (I'm assuming there are a few in Europe), or if you were discussing recommendation for travelers from those areas when they are abroad.
2. I'd love to see a list of U.S. courses that are expensive but not really good. I've got a couple I'd recommend, but I'd prefer not to pick on the general Orlando area in that way.
3. How much does this equation come into play: High cost to play = big maintenance budget = being rated highly by those who value conditioning more than other factors?
Sven:
Really, I just meant I was going to focus on quality architecture, as a counterpoint to the magazines (and the courses' own PR) which tend to promote how perfect the conditions are, and stress photographs over substance.
Unfortunately, as you touch on in your last point, there are lots of golfers who haven't thought about architecture very much, who just assume quality is about conditioning, and choose what course to play on vacation on the assumption that the highest-priced course must be the best one. [When I lived in Myrtle Beach, this was literally true -- the courses that RAISED their prices, wound up being the most heavily booked.]
I am not sure if inexpensive good courses can be found in Asia [or if any inexpensive courses can be found there]. I just want to highlight what I think are the best courses, and why. If that draws them in a little, then maybe they'll start to wonder why those ragged links in the UK got even higher ratings in my book, or be spurred to take a trip to Australia to find out what a 9 or a 10 on the Doak scale looks like.
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So there's more than one 9 or 10 in Australia? Interesting, makes me look forward to the new edition even more.
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Tom-
Although it will not help you with your next edition, any idea what happened (other than closed) to Pine Island near Biloxi, MS? It was a Pete Dye course I played with my father 25+ years ago.
I really enjoyed the course. Built among the marshlands on seemingly seperate islands, it seemed unique to the area. The google machine has nothing to offer.
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I'm selling mine to the high bidder...any bids
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Tom,
How about a two or three quick paragraphs about best military courses?
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the courses that RAISED their prices, wound up being the most heavily booked.]
a Giffen good, if I recall correctly from my 6 economic classes
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Tom:
When visiting Sand Hollow I would also visit Kokopelli. Conditioning is a bit rough but I found it the most interesting of the other options around St. George and the setting is very unique.
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If you're on the fence about Hanover CC, I'll vouch for its quirk. There used to be a ski jump in the middle of the back nine; I don't recall whether they took it down during the Prichard renovation, but the fact that it was there is a pretty good indication of how severe the terrain is on a number of holes. Not much Ron could do about that.
There is an interesting side note on the course's history: Ralph Barton was a Dartmouth grad and learned the game on the Hanover Country Club course. He was hired as a math professor at the University of Minnesota, and he helped start both the University of Minnesota course and Midland Hills Country Club. He was instrumental in hiring Seth Raynor to design Midland Hills, and became his on-site foreman while the course was being built. Barton learned so much from Raynor -- and carried out his instructions so well -- that Raynor hired him away from the University of Minnesota to work for him fulltime. Barton eventually went into golf course design on his own, and one of the courses he worked on was -- Hanover Country Club. He designed nine new holes at Hanover CC, but I believe they fell into disuse by the '60s, except for a couple that were located on the east side of Lyme Road and were used as practice holes when I was there in the '70s.
I doubt that any of that makes Hanover CC a must-see course, however.
Whatever it makes it...great story! In 8 years of living in both Burlington and Bath, ME, sadly I never made it down.
Cheers
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Tom:
When visiting Sand Hollow I would also visit Kokopelli. Conditioning is a bit rough but I found it the most interesting of the other options around St. George and the setting is very unique.
Jason,
Internet shows it closed June 1st. Someone wrote that it is closed for good, and they heard it was over water rights.
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Tom:
When visiting Sand Hollow I would also visit Kokopelli. Conditioning is a bit rough but I found it the most interesting of the other options around St. George and the setting is very unique.
Jason,
Internet shows it closed June 1st. Someone wrote that it is closed for good, and they heard it was over water rights.
That is too bad. It was a decent course that needed more time to grow in, but had a nice design. It was also refreshing as it was about 10 degrees cooler up there than at the other courses nearby.
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I'm determined to include at least one course worth reviewing in every state, except Alaska, unless someone convinces me there is a course there that deserves a special trip.
This sounds an awful lot like MLB including an "All Star" from every team and at the same time having home feild advantage at stake for the World Series to try to make the game "meaningful". If you have to go looking so hard for a worthy course in those states it seems to me you are probably just watering down the overall quality of the book. That's not to say that the clubs listed so far couldn't be any good (I don't think I've been to any of them).. just that the idea of listing a course just because its in an unrepresnted state seems silly to me.
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Tom:
When visiting Sand Hollow I would also visit Kokopelli. Conditioning is a bit rough but I found it the most interesting of the other options around St. George and the setting is very unique.
Jason,
Internet shows it closed June 1st. Someone wrote that it is closed for good, and they heard it was over water rights.
That is too bad. It was a decent course that needed more time to grow in, but had a nice design. It was also refreshing as it was about 10 degrees cooler up there than at the other courses nearby.
I wondered about that. I tried to link the website but could not find it.
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
George, yes it certainly is unusual that others post Doak ratings (not that I don't do it). At the end of the day, the Doak scale gives a definition of a score from 0-10. That actual words Tom used to define the ratings means less to me than the courses that were assigned each number.
Using only courses I've seen from The Confidential Guide...
10 - Shinnecock; Crystal Downs; Muirfield = top-25 world
9 - Prairie Dunes; The Golf Club; Sand Hills = top-25 US / top-50 world
8 - Southern Hills; St George's; Lahinch = top 50 US / top-100 world
7 - Hamilton; Pasatiempo; World Woods; Franklin Hills = top 100 US
6 - Canterbury; Oak Tree National; Crag Burn = Top 100 Modern or Classic / Candidates for top 100 US
5 - Spanish Bay / East Lake / Royal Aberdeen = Top 200 Modern or Classic
Anything 4 or below would likely only be found on a best-in-state list (US courses only).
I am sure this is not how Tom sees his rankings, but it's basically how I convert Doak scores.
On that note, Shooting Star is top-25 modern, and for me is comfortably among the best 100 courses in the United States = 7
I think Promontory (Dye) is Top 100 modern = 6
Salt Lake CC is currently Top 200 Classic = 5
Glenwild is Top 200 modern = 5
I think Victory Ranch could be Top 200 Modern = 5
Hmm no response. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Actually, I think most people do this - I played such and such, it was a (true :)) Doak 5, and this course is better, so it must be a 6, or whatever.
Regardless of whether one uses your method or follows Tom's words, it's just a bit odd to me the way people throw around "Doak" ratings. Perhaps it just me, I will admit to a certain preference for being exact in expressing such things, but certainly everyone would admit that there is a gigantic difference between someone who has played a handful of top 25 or whatever courses and someone who has played most (and even designed and built a few!), when one is making the claim that such and such a course is "worth driving 100 miles to play".
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Tom,
For those of us who are in the not-completely-initiated category, would you have time for a little background? . . . .
Thanks, Carl
Carl:
Just as well you did not spring for the $$$, since a new edition will make the collectors' value of the previous editions go down considerably.
The original edition of The Confidential Guide . . . .
Thanks for the response. You've clarified a lot for me. Carl
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Hi Tom,
I can echo what most have said about NH, with a couple additions...
Hanover CC holds a special place in my heart, as I went to golf camp there at age 15, my wife went to Tuck, and I now count Dartmouth as a work client, so I have played it many times pre and post renovation. The history is neat, but the current course is not noteworthy on anything more than a regional level. The old Barton (possibly) holes across the street now used as practice holes are pretty neat if you know where you are going. There are about 5-6 greens still there, but navigating the multiple corridors and blind hillsides is a bit tough for a first timer...I wouldn't be surprised if a newbie missed one.
Lake Sunapee and Manchester CC are great old Ross courses, and MCC is the perennial #1 course in the state by GD's metrics. The Balsams is a great Ross layout too, and is hidden merely by the fact that it is almost in Canada, and located at the top of a mountain. All are worth a look if time is on your side, probably ranked Balsams, MCC, LS for uniqueness. Bald Peak also gets great reviews (partly because of its Myopia/Chicago Golf-type exclusivity?) but I have yet to play there.
Lake Winnepesaukee, GC of New England, Montcalm, and Baker Hill are the new courses on the block, but I have only played the first two. LW is a treat, but thoroughly modern. Some beautiful wooded landscapes and rock outcroppings throughout, although with blinding white sand... GC of NE is also a good layout from the Palmer group, and wouldn't be out of place in the Western US.
Portsmouth CC is a neat early-mid career RTJ course with several holes along Great Bay, the inland salt water waterway. They hosted the New England Amateur a few years back.
Other courses to research are North Conway CC, Keene CC, Nashua CC, and Wentworth (Rye Beach), probably in that order. None of those will make any "best of" lists outside of NH, but all have some history...NCCC goes back to about 1900, Wentworth is a Ross/Silva, and the other two have Wayne Stiles roots.
Has Attitash mentioned golf again lately?
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
George, yes it certainly is unusual that others post Doak ratings (not that I don't do it). At the end of the day, the Doak scale gives a definition of a score from 0-10. That actual words Tom used to define the ratings means less to me than the courses that were assigned each number.
Using only courses I've seen from The Confidential Guide...
10 - Shinnecock; Crystal Downs; Muirfield = top-25 world
9 - Prairie Dunes; The Golf Club; Sand Hills = top-25 US / top-50 world
8 - Southern Hills; St George's; Lahinch = top 50 US / top-100 world
7 - Hamilton; Pasatiempo; World Woods; Franklin Hills = top 100 US
6 - Canterbury; Oak Tree National; Crag Burn = Top 100 Modern or Classic / Candidates for top 100 US
5 - Spanish Bay / East Lake / Royal Aberdeen = Top 200 Modern or Classic
Anything 4 or below would likely only be found on a best-in-state list (US courses only).
I am sure this is not how Tom sees his rankings, but it's basically how I convert Doak scores.
On that note, Shooting Star is top-25 modern, and for me is comfortably among the best 100 courses in the United States = 7
I think Promontory (Dye) is Top 100 modern = 6
Salt Lake CC is currently Top 200 Classic = 5
Glenwild is Top 200 modern = 5
I think Victory Ranch could be Top 200 Modern = 5
Hmm no response. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Mark,
I think this way, but in a backhanded manner. If every course that guys on here gave a 7 or an 8 to were to fit, the top 100 would have 300 courses in it. It's amazing the amount of grade inflation that's thrown around as everyone here wants to put an exclamation point on courses they like. So I suppose I look at the criteria, mentally assign a course, for instance, a 7, then knock it down a peg when I realize that it really belongs outside the top 100. It's gotten to the point on here that a 5 or a 6 is seen as a slight, when in fact a 6 should be a very interesting course that's just a hair below the very best and may in fact be a personal favorite depending on one's predilections.
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Tom - I think you said you want to be inclusive to most possible geographies in order to reach a greater audience. But in so doing, do you imagine you won't have time or ability to see and rank all the "best" courses in the world? For instance, take whatever Top 200/300/400 US and/or World ranking - do you intend to have ratings for them all, or will there some left out? Seems a shame at some level to err towards quantity vs. quality, but maybe the masses care (and will pay) for quantity while only 1500 GCAers would appreciate the granularity within the top tiers.
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Matt,
I'm not sure. Seems to me it's the granularity and particularly the writeups beyond the numbers that one can really learn from. It's the singularity of Tom's point of view and in relief how one's own biases stack up that are interesting. What I'm looking to find is that off-the-run quirky Doak 6 that I might love that I've never seen or even heard of rather than how Tom's rating of Augusta and Pebble compares to the other rags, or what number he assigns an otherwise highly rated championship track that I have no interest in playing, regardless of exclusivity or prestige. (OK, I am interested in what number he assigns Rich Harvest, Butler and Medinah.. :))
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Doak rating rule of thumb:
True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)
George, yes it certainly is unusual that others post Doak ratings (not that I don't do it). At the end of the day, the Doak scale gives a definition of a score from 0-10. That actual words Tom used to define the ratings means less to me than the courses that were assigned each number.
Using only courses I've seen from The Confidential Guide...
10 - Shinnecock; Crystal Downs; Muirfield = top-25 world
9 - Prairie Dunes; The Golf Club; Sand Hills = top-25 US / top-50 world
8 - Southern Hills; St George's; Lahinch = top 50 US / top-100 world
7 - Hamilton; Pasatiempo; World Woods; Franklin Hills = top 100 US
6 - Canterbury; Oak Tree National; Crag Burn = Top 100 Modern or Classic / Candidates for top 100 US
5 - Spanish Bay / East Lake / Royal Aberdeen = Top 200 Modern or Classic
Anything 4 or below would likely only be found on a best-in-state list (US courses only).
I am sure this is not how Tom sees his rankings, but it's basically how I convert Doak scores.
On that note, Shooting Star is top-25 modern, and for me is comfortably among the best 100 courses in the United States = 7
I think Promontory (Dye) is Top 100 modern = 6
Salt Lake CC is currently Top 200 Classic = 5
Glenwild is Top 200 modern = 5
I think Victory Ranch could be Top 200 Modern = 5
Hmm no response. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Actually, I think most people do this - I played such and such, it was a (true :)) Doak 5, and this course is better, so it must be a 6, or whatever.
Regardless of whether one uses your method or follows Tom's words, it's just a bit odd to me the way people throw around "Doak" ratings. Perhaps it just me, I will admit to a certain preference for being exact in expressing such things, but certainly everyone would admit that there is a gigantic difference between someone who has played a handful of top 25 or whatever courses and someone who has played most (and even designed and built a few!), when one is making the claim that such and such a course is "worth driving 100 miles to play".
George
I am not so certain this is the case. As it happens, I think the Doak Scale is probably better than any other rankings I have seen (the exception being perhaps the Unofficial GCA.com rankings). That is as much down to his essentially grouping courses rather than trying to list them 1 to infinity as it is his opinions on the quality of the courses. Tom is clever in that he makes room for some unusual courses which pull at the heart strings rather than deliver top notch holes one after the other. In the end, rankings are like anything people get interested in. One finds guys he trusts for advice and then hits the road. Vast experience in the field is nothing close to a guarantee of good recommendations.
Ciao
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Did he say if he was including his own designs in this new version of the guide?
RCCC has to be a 10.
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Jim,
Yes. It would be kind of silly not to, especially since they are among the best built since the last edition.
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Did he say if he was including his own designs in this new version of the guide?
RCCC has to be a 10.
Yes.
As Tom wrote in another recent thread when he revealed the updated version...
Tom,
I only have 3 9s on my list of courses played (that i consider to be 9s)....and they all belong to you.
50 years from now, which one do you think will be the best candidate for a 10? PD, RCCC, or BN?
Or perhaps you feel one of them should already be considered as such?
Kalen
Kalen:
Rating one's own courses is pretty difficult, and one of the reasons I've hesitated to update my book. My clients will be bummed if I don't give them all 10's. I won't give away anything for now about how I am going to handle that, but I think I've got a solution that won't be seen as a cop-out.
As for fifty years from now, recent experience has told me that the first order of business is to be sure that the golf course will still BE there in fifty years. I hope that all three you mentioned will thrive, but if you consider the quality of all three to be nearly equal, you'd have to make Pacific Dunes the favorite in that horse race.
I respectfully submit that Tom work on a device to not leave his own work out of the next "Guide". Might it be via a respected "guest writer" colleague applying the "Scale" and description to Tom's best courses. How could Ballyneal and Old MacDonald (and others I have not played) not be recognized for their quality.
IMHO.
John Crowley
John:
Rest assured that I do not plan to write and self-publish a book about all the great courses I have ever seen, only to leave all of my own work out of the book because someone might think my opinions are "biased".
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52604.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52604.0.html)
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Tom, I would be interested to know which courses in California you will be reviewing.
Also, I have heard that Belle Terre(Dye) near Baton Rouge is pretty good.
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Hi Tom,
I can echo what most have said about NH, with a couple additions...
Hanover CC holds a special place in my heart, as I went to golf camp there at age 15, my wife went to Tuck, and I now count Dartmouth as a work client, so I have played it many times pre and post renovation. The history is neat, but the current course is not noteworthy on anything more than a regional level. The old Barton (possibly) holes across the street now used as practice holes are pretty neat if you know where you are going. There are about 5-6 greens still there, but navigating the multiple corridors and blind hillsides is a bit tough for a first timer...I wouldn't be surprised if a newbie missed one.
Lake Sunapee and Manchester CC are great old Ross courses, and MCC is the perennial #1 course in the state by GD's metrics. The Balsams is a great Ross layout too, and is hidden merely by the fact that it is almost in Canada, and located at the top of a mountain. All are worth a look if time is on your side, probably ranked Balsams, MCC, LS for uniqueness. Bald Peak also gets great reviews (partly because of its Myopia/Chicago Golf-type exclusivity?) but I have yet to play there.
Lake Winnepesaukee, GC of New England, Montcalm, and Baker Hill are the new courses on the block, but I have only played the first two. LW is a treat, but thoroughly modern. Some beautiful wooded landscapes and rock outcroppings throughout, although with blinding white sand... GC of NE is also a good layout from the Palmer group, and wouldn't be out of place in the Western US.
Portsmouth CC is a neat early-mid career RTJ course with several holes along Great Bay, the inland salt water waterway. They hosted the New England Amateur a few years back.
Other courses to research are North Conway CC, Keene CC, Nashua CC, and Wentworth (Rye Beach), probably in that order. None of those will make any "best of" lists outside of NH, but all have some history...NCCC goes back to about 1900, Wentworth is a Ross/Silva, and the other two have Wayne Stiles roots.
Has Attitash mentioned golf again lately?
Brad:
Have you played the restored Bretton Woods course?
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Haven't played it although I was planning a poker trip there a couple years back, but if you're looking for a course in Mississippi, I suppose Fallen Oak would be one to check out. #48 Modern list in Golfweek:
http://www.fallenoak.com/layout9.asp?id=25&page=2552
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Crap....forgot to add that one to the category of The Balsams, Lake Sunapee, and MCC.
I played it once with the old routing, and apart from the really neat old first hole that used to literally start from the hotel veranda, it was pretty boring.
Not so anymore. Silva's renovation has definately brought the course back into the equation when it comes to the best of NH golf. It has somewhat of a heathland (without the heath) character now, and looks closer to the original idea 100 years ago. There is a new par three on the back nine that is really cool, with Mt. Washington and the Presidentials down the left side.
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Tom,
From Louisiana, I would pick one of the following (in no specific order):
- The Bluffs - Palmer/Sealy - St. Francisville - best public course
- The Country Club of Louisiana - Nicklaus - Baton Rouge - Private
- Oakbourne - Dick Wilson - Lafayette - Private (mine and Tigers home course)
- Money Hill - Ron Garl - Abita Springs - Private
- Metairie CC - Raynor (not much left, but still good) - Metairie - Private
- Squire Creek - Tom Fazio - Choudrant - Private (best condition)
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Tom, Actually Metairie was redone and now is a pretty average but real Raynor. I agree with Paul's picks but would drop Money Hill and add Bayou Desaird Cc an old Maxwell course in Monroe which was restored 2 years ago. It is hard to come here and not look at the Jacks course in New Orleans where they played the tour stop for years. I personally like CC of La a little better though. The Bluffs when in good condition is one of the better Palmers I have played anywhere. There is a good Art Hills course in Shreveport which escapes me a the moment but it would be at the bottom of this list. I might add Baton Rouge Cc but I have not played but 5 or 6 holes since Rees redid it. It was a good classic course before Rees messed it up with David Toms holding the membership in a spell while he did his Reesjob on it.
Squire Creek 1 an average to better than average top line Fazio, built during the Dallas National period.
Oakbourse cc solid 2 in state
Bayou Desaird Cc 3rd, great match play course and like Oakbourne and Squire Creek a regular on the state am rotation and usga qualifyers
Bluffs 4rd
CC LA 5th
Metairie is lower because it is not a hard course but is interesting. Good fun Raynor that they are still trying to maintain correctly. If they ever get the greens right it will be the most fun course on the gulf coast to play.
Squire and the others are rater friendly. I know the owners or Club Pres in most of the other cases if you have a problem just PM me.
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Mississippi has a few new courses(3) along the gulf coast which should be seen. And Laurel Cc is a incredible unknown great course. It uses its land feature as well as Seminole works magic on one sand ridge. I have not played the Fazio casino course(Dancing Rabbit) in northern Mississippi to note how good it really is. Old Waverly is good and worthy. There are one or two courses in Jackson to be seen as well. I have such a distain for all things Mississippi as an LSU man that it pains me to say anything nice or even mention the places in the state by name. But there is a good bit of decent golf which is unknown to people who marry outside the family. Mike Young designed a real good course named Beau Pre in Natchez.
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Tiger--
The course that you're thinking of in Shreveport is Southern Trace. It's a nice course but I don't think it would crack your top 5.
It's funny that you think that Metairie isn't very hard. The last time I played there was in a tournament where it was so cold and windy that the scores were really high. What are your thoughts on New Orleans CC? I've enjoyed my rounds there even though the course is on flat ground.
Baton Rouge CC follows the same routing as before and it's still tight, but the greens are totally different and in the Rees Jones mold.
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The only ones in arkanasas that i know of are are Chenel CC and whatever that Fazio is A------, texarkana Cc is reportedly ok.
Adam I agree on Southern Trace. I have not played there since I was state am worthy.
I think you caught Metairie on a rare day. It is my favorite course in NOLA by far. It can be tough when the wind is blowing and the small greens get hard to hit. I have only played New Orleans Cc post renovation a few times. I have mixed feelings and frankly feel Bobby Weed did a good job. It is not really good enough to be in this discussion. Both it and Metairie have the same problem of being squeezed in on small flat poorly drained below sea level tracts. Metairie has a huge design edge to me. New Orleans Cc is the proper home course for the New Orleans gentlemen set. Yet as you know golf is not the way to pass time of choice for those men. Well except Tommy Brennan and a few others who take the game seriously. It is good to see you on here. I hope all is well with you.
Tim Belle Terre is an ok play but not worth you or Toms time. There are better options in that part of the state much less the New Orleans metro area.
Tom the more I think of it, there is a good chance we can get you in and out of La and Miss with zero jail time. We may have to rename you Lester and work on the accent a bit for North la and Miss. There is a different name like Andre and a french accent for South La and New Orleans. It would be a shame for you to miss the best food and music in the usa and have a huge hole in your book. I am happy to facilitate in this part of the world to help wherever you find the need. I have lots of time on my hands these days when not in California or Houston.
Mike Young a friend of mine played the Island last week and had nothing but great things to say about it. I just smiled.
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Tiger:
Thanks for all of your recommendations. I will definitely be in touch when I have an idea of a schedule to come down that way again; we likely have a few months to figure that out. I did go to New Orleans a few years back with my wife and my in-laws ... a great trip for food and relaxation, even though I never thought of going to look at a golf course.
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Tom I look forward to it. Good luck on the current and new projects.
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Tiger--
Hope your health is starting to cooperate and you're getting to play.
I agree that NOCC is on a tight piece of property, but I do think it makes pretty good use of it. Those first three holes are really tough when there's any wind and there's plenty of fun golf throughout. NOCC has several really good players, including Tommy Brennan and Gary Brewster but it's more of a society club.
Metairie is a cool little golf course that keeps getting better with the subtle improvements they keep making to it.
As far as New Hampshire goes, I really like Bald Peak Colony Club, a cool Ross effort.
In Arkansas, it's Alotian and it's not a close contest.
In Mississippi, there are a coupule of area options. There are several courses near Jackson: Annandale and Reunion are very close to each other and are nice tracks and I really enjoyed the Country Club of Jackson which was recently renovated by John Fought. In the south closer to New Orleans, Fallen Oak is a excellentTom Fazio effort.
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The problem I see with this is that unless he is going to visit each and every course again, the book will be incredibly misleading. All of the old reviews are fine when everyone knows the book is 20 years old. The old reviews are not fine when they are a part of a new book and people will think they are current.
Each course that hasn't been reviewed since the last edition should be noted as such with notations to the fact that the course could have changed because nature changes or because there has been architectural changes.
So, a new confidential guide would be great but it seems to me that in order to be accurate and not misleading, it is probably going to be pretty short compared to the last one.
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Tiger/Paul,
Squire Creek is a nice golf course. It's nothing we haven't seen out of Fazio before. I'd take Oakbourne over it every day of the week.
Cheers,
Wyatt
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The problem I see with this is that unless he is going to visit each and every course again, the book will be incredibly misleading. All of the old reviews are fine when everyone knows the book is 20 years old. The old reviews are not fine when they are a part of a new book and people will think they are current.
Each course that hasn't been reviewed since the last edition should be noted as such with notations to the fact that the course could have changed because nature changes or because there has been architectural changes.
So, a new confidential guide would be great but it seems to me that in order to be accurate and not misleading, it is probably going to be pretty short compared to the last one.
JC:
The date of the last time I saw each course was in the old book, and will be in the new one as well.
I guess I just don't agree with your premise that these courses change drastically over the years. [For example, check out my 20-year-old review of Phoenixville CC in the Guide, vs. Joe Bausch's current GCA thread on the course.] Sure, there have been a lot of restorations over the past few years, but most of my reviews gave courses the benefit of the doubt on such stuff in the first place.
You are right that it would be hard for anyone to publish something as current as the original edition of The Confidential Guide was. But, I've got a few tricks up my sleeve so that it will be more current than you expect.
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Tom,
Do you cover any nine hole courses? Are there nine-holers that would make it above a 4? Is there a max you would rate a nine-holer?
Dave
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Tom,
Do you cover any nine hole courses? Are there nine-holers that would make it above a 4? Is there a max you would rate a nine-holer?
Dave
David:
I haven't seen a lot of nine-hole courses -- somewhere between ten and twenty -- but all that I had seen made the original edition. The maximum I would rate a nine-holer is 9 -- and the wonderful Royal Worlington & Newmarket course in England got a 9.
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Texarkana Country Club would be the most interesting Arkansas review.The Jackson CC redo certainly has possibilities.I have been to both clubhouses for functions but not played them.
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Another recommendation for:
Louisiana.....Squire Creek
Mississippi....Fallen Oak
Arkansas......Texarkana (if you don't do Alotian)
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Wyatt, you are s correct about Squire Creek. However I tried to use words that say the same thing. An average Fazio of his top tier courses. By that I mean big budget and big effort on decent to good land. However it is considered top notch in the state because it was a high budget Fazio. I will take Oakbourne or Bayou Desaird any day over it for a State Am or just for me to be a member of. As Paul noted Oakbourse is our home club. BDCC was my childhood course which I loved during the Maxwell period and liked during the Joe Lee period. Now that it is back to Maxwell I am thrilled. When i see those shaved areas on one side of a green without rhyme or reason other than the USGA promotes them, it makes me think of BDCC and all the other classic small green complexes which were well trapped and surrounded by deep bermuda rough. You either hit the green or you developed a short game fast unless you wanted to lose your shirt and the contents of your wallet. That was how golf was played on classic designs across maxwell country as well as most of the deep south. YOu had better be smart of the tee and stay in play. You could not hold a green from the rough and it took a magic act to get up and down. BDCC was one special place to play 36 a day as a child. Sometimes we played 18 at BDCC in the morning 18 at Monroe muni after lunch(TOC in louisiana, lots of hard pan to learn to play tight lie and trick shot golf from) and then 1 or 2 baseball games each evening. It is a great life. As an aside an old LSU player I caddied for a few times named Tom Evans just moved to lafayette and comes to a prayer group for us cancer types each Monday. He taught me some grreat short game shots including the ball off pine straw where you hit the ball hard and it never leaves a foot off the ground and checks with one hop to dead stop. The first time he did it was on 18 in a match over a 15 yard wide bunker to a pin 15 feet from edge of the green and left the egg 1 foot from the hole to win the match 1 up.
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I know that Bill Coore rebuilt one of the courses at Hot Springs Resort in Arkansas a few years ago, but no one seems to have mentioned it at all. Then again, I can't remember the last time I heard Bill mention it.
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The problem I see with this is that unless he is going to visit each and every course again, the book will be incredibly misleading. All of the old reviews are fine when everyone knows the book is 20 years old. The old reviews are not fine when they are a part of a new book and people will think they are current.
Each course that hasn't been reviewed since the last edition should be noted as such with notations to the fact that the course could have changed because nature changes or because there has been architectural changes.
So, a new confidential guide would be great but it seems to me that in order to be accurate and not misleading, it is probably going to be pretty short compared to the last one.
JC:
The date of the last time I saw each course was in the old book, and will be in the new one as well.
I guess I just don't agree with your premise that these courses change drastically over the years. [For example, check out my 20-year-old review of Phoenixville CC in the Guide, vs. Joe Bausch's current GCA thread on the course.] Sure, there have been a lot of restorations over the past few years, but most of my reviews gave courses the benefit of the doubt on such stuff in the first place. And I've got some other tricks up my sleeve, as well.
You are right that it would be hard for anyone to publish something as current as the original edition of The Confidential Guide was. But, I've got a few tricks up my sleeve so that it will be more current than you expect.
Sounds good, Tom. I'll look forward to it.
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Re: above: Note to self: One of the tricks up my sleeve should be to find a good editor! :)
At least it won't be in print as soon as I hit "Post".
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You are right that it would be hard for anyone to publish something as current as the original edition of The Confidential Guide was. But, I've got a few tricks up my sleeve so that it will be more current than you expect.
Tom,
You probably have an order of magnitude more well known friends in the golf world now than you did when The Confidential Guide first published. Is one of your "tricks" to have some of your course updates done by people's opinion you trust?
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Tom Deomonte or something like that is or was the easily the best of the Hot Springs Resort courses. It was a great deal of up and down the hills though and frankly after 3 rounds I had enough of it. Madison Pope is the head pro there if you are curious which one is which. I think I saw another course there hosted a pretty good tourney up there this year. So Bill may have improved another course enough to take top billing away.
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I know that Bill Coore rebuilt one of the courses at Hot Springs Resort in Arkansas a few years ago, but no one seems to have mentioned it at all. Then again, I can't remember the last time I heard Bill mention it.
Diamante?
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Wyatt, you are s correct about Squire Creek. However I tried to use words that say the same thing. An average Fazio of his top tier courses. By that I mean big budget and big effort on decent to good land. However it is considered top notch in the state because it was a high budget Fazio. I will take Oakbourne or Bayou Desaird any day over it for a State Am or just for me to be a member of. As Paul noted Oakbourse is our home club. BDCC was my childhood course which I loved during the Maxwell period and liked during the Joe Lee period. Now that it is back to Maxwell I am thrilled. When i see those shaved areas on one side of a green without rhyme or reason other than the USGA promotes them, it makes me think of BDCC and all the other classic small green complexes which were well trapped and surrounded by deep bermuda rough. You either hit the green or you developed a short game fast unless you wanted to lose your shirt and the contents of your wallet. That was how golf was played on classic designs across maxwell country as well as most of the deep south. YOu had better be smart of the tee and stay in play. You could not hold a green from the rough and it took a magic act to get up and down. BDCC was one special place to play 36 a day as a child. Sometimes we played 18 at BDCC in the morning 18 at Monroe muni after lunch(TOC in louisiana, lots of hard pan to learn to play tight lie and trick shot golf from) and then 1 or 2 baseball games each evening. It is a great life. As an aside an old LSU player I caddied for a few times named Tom Evans just moved to lafayette and comes to a prayer group for us cancer types each Monday. He taught me some grreat short game shots including the ball off pine straw where you hit the ball hard and it never leaves a foot off the ground and checks with one hop to dead stop. The first time he did it was on 18 in a match over a 15 yard wide bunker to a pin 15 feet from edge of the green and left the egg 1 foot from the hole to win the match 1 up.
Tiger,
I have never played Bayor Desaird. When you get back into town, lets make a road trip.
Paul
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You are right that it would be hard for anyone to publish something as current as the original edition of The Confidential Guide was. But, I've got a few tricks up my sleeve so that it will be more current than you expect.
Tom,
You probably have an order of magnitude more well known friends in the golf world now than you did when The Confidential Guide first published. Is one of your "tricks" to have some of your course updates done by people's opinion you trust?
Shirley Knot
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The maximum I would rate a nine-holer is 9 -- and the wonderful Royal Worlington & Newmarket course in England got a 9.
Why does the 9 hole course have a ceiling of 9?
Would anything less than 18 holes have the same ceiling?
Cheers
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I don't know about Tom, but my justification for having a ceiling for less than 18 hole courses is that there is a ceiling for variety on these courses. The same amount of golf played over them will be more repetetive compared to an 18 hole course of the same quality.
Ulrich
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Re: above: Note to self: One of the tricks up my sleeve should be to find a good editor! :)
At least it won't be in print as soon as I hit "Post".
Volunteering.
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The maximum I would rate a nine-holer is 9 -- and the wonderful Royal Worlington & Newmarket course in England got a 9.
Why does the 9 hole course have a ceiling of 9?
Would anything less than 18 holes have the same ceiling?
Cheers
Mike:
See Ulrich's answer. If you think about it, there are probably a few more courses that would be a "10" if you could throw out their weakest holes by only using one nine or the other, so I think you've got to take at least one point off for not comparing apples to apples. But I think that's all. The front nine at Crystal Downs, on its own, would and should get a higher score from me than any of the courses I rated an 8.
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P.S. I looked up the courses at Hot Springs -- the course that Bill and Ben re-worked is the Arlington course at Hot Springs C.C. And, for what it's worth, I was amazed at how many different courses there are in Hot Springs.
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Wyatt, you are s correct about Squire Creek. However I tried to use words that say the same thing. An average Fazio of his top tier courses. By that I mean big budget and big effort on decent to good land. However it is considered top notch in the state because it was a high budget Fazio. I will take Oakbourne or Bayou Desaird any day over it for a State Am or just for me to be a member of. As Paul noted Oakbourse is our home club. BDCC was my childhood course which I loved during the Maxwell period and liked during the Joe Lee period. Now that it is back to Maxwell I am thrilled. When i see those shaved areas on one side of a green without rhyme or reason other than the USGA promotes them, it makes me think of BDCC and all the other classic small green complexes which were well trapped and surrounded by deep bermuda rough. You either hit the green or you developed a short game fast unless you wanted to lose your shirt and the contents of your wallet. That was how golf was played on classic designs across maxwell country as well as most of the deep south. YOu had better be smart of the tee and stay in play. You could not hold a green from the rough and it took a magic act to get up and down. BDCC was one special place to play 36 a day as a child. Sometimes we played 18 at BDCC in the morning 18 at Monroe muni after lunch(TOC in louisiana, lots of hard pan to learn to play tight lie and trick shot golf from) and then 1 or 2 baseball games each evening. It is a great life. As an aside an old LSU player I caddied for a few times named Tom Evans just moved to lafayette and comes to a prayer group for us cancer types each Monday. He taught me some grreat short game shots including the ball off pine straw where you hit the ball hard and it never leaves a foot off the ground and checks with one hop to dead stop. The first time he did it was on 18 in a match over a 15 yard wide bunker to a pin 15 feet from edge of the green and left the egg 1 foot from the hole to win the match 1 up.
Tiger,
I have never played Bayor Desaird. When you get back into town, lets make a road trip.
Paul
How far is that from Pensacola? Might meet you dudes there.
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How far is that from Pensacola? Might meet you dudes there.
Bill:
Speaking of that, I remember years ago reading about an Air Force Base golf course in Florida that was touted to be very good ... almost like another Bethpage Black, back in the days when the Black course was not well maintained. Do you have any idea which course that was, and what has happened to it?
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Tom,
Having seen few quality courses, and not having the Guide, could you share your rating of any of these courses to help me calibrate?
St. George's (NY)
Wykagyl
Yale
CommonGrounds
Presidio
Fossil Trace
Thanks, Dave
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Yale was / is an 8.
Don't remember if I had been to St. George's when the book came out. It would be a 5 or a 6. Same for Common Ground.
I haven't seen the others.
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Thank you. Funny thing, and I don't disagree with how you rate these, St. George's is the one I most want to play again. Yale, I loved playing, and I know that I've learned more from that course in my education on golf architecture than any other course. I look forward to the next time I play it. But St. George's was enchanting, or should I say enchanted me. She may not be the prettiest girl in class, but she literally made me laugh.
Thanks again, Dave.
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Wyatt, you are s correct about Squire Creek. However I tried to use words that say the same thing. An average Fazio of his top tier courses. By that I mean big budget and big effort on decent to good land. However it is considered top notch in the state because it was a high budget Fazio. I will take Oakbourne or Bayou Desaird any day over it for a State Am or just for me to be a member of. As Paul noted Oakbourse is our home club. BDCC was my childhood course which I loved during the Maxwell period and liked during the Joe Lee period. Now that it is back to Maxwell I am thrilled. When i see those shaved areas on one side of a green without rhyme or reason other than the USGA promotes them, it makes me think of BDCC and all the other classic small green complexes which were well trapped and surrounded by deep bermuda rough. You either hit the green or you developed a short game fast unless you wanted to lose your shirt and the contents of your wallet. That was how golf was played on classic designs across maxwell country as well as most of the deep south. YOu had better be smart of the tee and stay in play. You could not hold a green from the rough and it took a magic act to get up and down. BDCC was one special place to play 36 a day as a child. Sometimes we played 18 at BDCC in the morning 18 at Monroe muni after lunch(TOC in louisiana, lots of hard pan to learn to play tight lie and trick shot golf from) and then 1 or 2 baseball games each evening. It is a great life. As an aside an old LSU player I caddied for a few times named Tom Evans just moved to lafayette and comes to a prayer group for us cancer types each Monday. He taught me some grreat short game shots including the ball off pine straw where you hit the ball hard and it never leaves a foot off the ground and checks with one hop to dead stop. The first time he did it was on 18 in a match over a 15 yard wide bunker to a pin 15 feet from edge of the green and left the egg 1 foot from the hole to win the match 1 up.
Tiger,
I have never played Bayor Desaird. When you get back into town, lets make a road trip.
Paul
How far is that from Pensacola? Might meet you dudes there.
>:(
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Thank you. Funny thing, and I don't disagree with how you rate these, St. George's is the one I most want to play again. Yale, I loved playing, and I know that I've learned more from that course in my education on golf architecture than any other course. I look forward to the next time I play it. But St. George's was enchanting, or should I say enchanted me. She may not be the prettiest girl in class, but she literally made me laugh.
Thanks again, Dave.
David:
Have you ever seen Huntington Country Club? If you like St. George's, you would probably like it, too ... although it is even wilder, and possibly too wild for some people's tastes.
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Tom,
I think you are wrong about Common Ground. Your assessment is too low, especially when you think about the concept of the place and the nearby bar scene in Cherry Creek.
CG is definitely with a special visit!
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Wyatt, you are s correct about Squire Creek. However I tried to use words that say the same thing. An average Fazio of his top tier courses. By that I mean big budget and big effort on decent to good land. However it is considered top notch in the state because it was a high budget Fazio. I will take Oakbourne or Bayou Desaird any day over it for a State Am or just for me to be a member of. As Paul noted Oakbourse is our home club. BDCC was my childhood course which I loved during the Maxwell period and liked during the Joe Lee period. Now that it is back to Maxwell I am thrilled. When i see those shaved areas on one side of a green without rhyme or reason other than the USGA promotes them, it makes me think of BDCC and all the other classic small green complexes which were well trapped and surrounded by deep bermuda rough. You either hit the green or you developed a short game fast unless you wanted to lose your shirt and the contents of your wallet. That was how golf was played on classic designs across maxwell country as well as most of the deep south. YOu had better be smart of the tee and stay in play. You could not hold a green from the rough and it took a magic act to get up and down. BDCC was one special place to play 36 a day as a child. Sometimes we played 18 at BDCC in the morning 18 at Monroe muni after lunch(TOC in louisiana, lots of hard pan to learn to play tight lie and trick shot golf from) and then 1 or 2 baseball games each evening. It is a great life. As an aside an old LSU player I caddied for a few times named Tom Evans just moved to lafayette and comes to a prayer group for us cancer types each Monday. He taught me some grreat short game shots including the ball off pine straw where you hit the ball hard and it never leaves a foot off the ground and checks with one hop to dead stop. The first time he did it was on 18 in a match over a 15 yard wide bunker to a pin 15 feet from edge of the green and left the egg 1 foot from the hole to win the match 1 up.
Tiger,
I have never played Bayor Desaird. When you get back into town, lets make a road trip.
Paul
How far is that from Pensacola? Might meet you dudes there.
>:(
You can be the 4th!
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How far is that from Pensacola? Might meet you dudes there.
Bill:
Speaking of that, I remember years ago reading about an Air Force Base golf course in Florida that was touted to be very good ... almost like another Bethpage Black, back in the days when the Black course was not well maintained. Do you have any idea which course that was, and what has happened to it?
Might be Eglin AFB, which has a modern Palmer and an antique which is rumored to be a Tilly. That's in Ft Walton Beach, 45 minutes east of Pensacola.
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How far is that from Pensacola? Might meet you dudes there.
Bill:
Speaking of that, I remember years ago reading about an Air Force Base golf course in Florida that was touted to be very good ... almost like another Bethpage Black, back in the days when the Black course was not well maintained. Do you have any idea which course that was, and what has happened to it?
Tom,
I believe you are thinking of Langford Moreau's Eglin AFB base course in Niceville a bit east of Pensacola. I have some good things about it but have never seen it.
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1954may35.pdf
Texarkana in Arkansas mentioned above is also a Langford/Moreau. As far as 9 holers go you should check out Langford Moreau's West Bend CC in Wisconsin about which Pete Dye is reported to have said, according to Ron Whitten, that he found an amazing Seth Raynor course. Of course WBCC is 18 holes with 9 holes added quite some time after the original 9 was built. And if you need an entry for best $20 course in the world check out L/M's Spring Valley GC in Salem Wisconsin where conditioning aside there are 5-6 simply terrific holes. Mom and pop course at its best.
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Tom D.,
Forgive me if this a repeat question but I don't have the patience to wade though the last five pages of posts.
I will be in NH next week. Can I call the pro shop and tell them I am a "rater" for the upcoming Tom Doak "Confidential Guide" encyclopedia of golf course architecture?
There is a nice little Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in North Walpole I would like to report on but is Private.
Please advise,
Malcolm
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Tom D.,
Forgive me if this a repeat question but I don't have the patience to wade though the last five pages of posts.
I will be in NH next week. Can I call the pro shop and tell them I am a "rater" for the upcoming Tom Doak "Confidential Guide" encyclopedia of golf course architecture?
There is a nice little Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in North Walpole I would like to report on but is Private.
Please advise,
Malcolm
You know someone is going to read this and think you're serious. :D
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Tom D.,
Forgive me if this a repeat question but I don't have the patience to wade though the last five pages of posts.
I will be in NH next week. Can I call the pro shop and tell them I am a "rater" for the upcoming Tom Doak "Confidential Guide" encyclopedia of golf course architecture?
There is a nice little Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in North Walpole I would like to report on but is Private.
Please advise,
Malcolm
Malcolm:
Don't spoil it for all the young men and women out there right now who are trying to gain access to courses by telling people they work for me! ;)
Then again, most of them are trying to get on Sand Hills and Prairie Dunes and Shinnecock, not some little nine-holer in North Walpole, so you're probably safe.
-
How far is that from Pensacola? Might meet you dudes there.
Bill:
Speaking of that, I remember years ago reading about an Air Force Base golf course in Florida that was touted to be very good ... almost like another Bethpage Black, back in the days when the Black course was not well maintained. Do you have any idea which course that was, and what has happened to it?
Tom,
I believe you are thinking of Langford Moreau's Eglin AFB base course in Niceville a bit east of Pensacola. I have some good things about it but have never seen it.
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1954may35.pdf
Texarkana in Arkansas mentioned above is also a Langford/Moreau. As far as 9 holers go you should check out Langford Moreau's West Bend CC in Wisconsin about which Pete Dye is reported to have said, according to Ron Whitten, that he found an amazing Seth Raynor course. Of course WBCC is 18 holes with 9 holes added quite some time after the original 9 was built. And if you need an entry for best $20 course in the world check out L/M's Spring Valley GC in Salem Wisconsin where conditioning aside there are 5-6 simply terrific holes. Mom and pop course at its best.
You're probably correct, nothing much about the Eagle course at Eglin shouted "Tilly!" to me. The greens were angled, narrow, usually with a sharp, steep fall off on the short side. There's been a remodel I haven't seen.
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Tom,
I think you are wrong about Common Ground. Your assessment is too low, especially when you think about the concept of the place and the nearby bar scene in Cherry Creek.
CG is definitely with a special visit!
Courses deserve a higher Doak ranking because of the nearby bar scene? I guess I missed it when Tom explained that as part of the criteria ;)
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In New Hampshire, you should check out Montcalm Golf Club in Enfield. I played it once a few years back when it was still rather new but to me it was ahead of anything else I've seen or played in NH. A mountain course, but well routed so that the terrain changes aren't as intrusive as most.
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Then again, most of them are trying to get on Sand Hills and Prairie Dunes and Shinnecock, not some little nine-holer in North Walpole, so you're probably safe.
Tom,
www.thedoakscale.com is still available if you need a manager !!
We could smoke those guys from The Outpost Club. :D
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Was perusing my copy of the CG last night and noted Tom mentioned Eisenhower GC in the "Gossip" section for Colorado, but said his understanding was it was mostly flat.
Such is not the case! The Blue is the better of the two Eisenhower (Air Force Academy) courses. Silver is more on the hill, but the Blue is by no means flat. It's very much an RTJ course and while I liked playing there I couldn't see it as more than perhaps a 5, but 5s are generally worthwhile if you have the chance.
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New Hampshire: Bald Peak is supposed to be a blast. I also got a kick out of Canterbury Woods, which has several hundred feet of elevation change and a bunch of cool half-par holes.
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Was perusing my copy of the CG last night and noted Tom mentioned Eisenhower GC in the "Gossip" section for Colorado, but said his understanding was it was mostly flat.
Such is not the case! The Blue is the better of the two Eisenhower (Air Force Academy) courses. Silver is more on the hill, but the Blue is by no means flat. It's very much an RTJ course and while I liked playing there I couldn't see it as more than perhaps a 5, but 5s are generally worthwhile if you have the chance.
Matthew,
Eisenhower Blue may be the single best Robert Trent Jones (Sr.) course I've ever seen. It gets far less press than it should and some recent reno work has really improved playability. In its current state, I honestly think it ranks in the top 10 in Colorado, and is better than any of the courses in the high country I have played. Definitely not flat by the way. And a beautiful setting. I think its a 6 on his scale, though that may be stretching it in some folks' eyes.
Tom would do well to include it and two or three other military courses worth seeing in the revision.
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Bill, Monroe is a long ways from Pensacola like 6 to 6.5 hours. but I would love to be back on the home track with you.
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Tom D.!
I'm here in Keene, NH trying to get a bite.
Started the day in Osterville, MA., went over to Oyster Harbors Club and spent some time in the shade pitching around in the new practice area you built for them. Not bad. Actually, pretty fine. My member friend said that they just happened to have an extra $100K in the pot so, what the heck, let's build a practice area.
Later decided to test drive Brian Silva's creation in Jaffrey, NH. the Shattuck Golf Club Wow, this is a practicably an unplayable course.
Perhaps the worst golf course I have ever played. Sorry, Brian Silva, but this is a disaster. Should never have been built. El stinko land punctuated by dead lakes full of ravenous insects. The only saving grace is the views of Mount Monadnock. The rest is the most ridiculously penal golf course I have ever seen in my life.
Tomorrow, I will get to the Stiles and Van Kleek in North Walpole.
I'm still awaiting my official "Tom Doak Ranging Rater" button and also my official card to flash at the pro shop. Lots more "confidential guide" work to do here.
Man, those golf doors are gonna open wide when I say "TOM DOAK DEMANDS THAT I REVIEW YOUR GOLF COURSE".
Later,
Malcolm
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Was perusing my copy of the CG last night and noted Tom mentioned Eisenhower GC in the "Gossip" section for Colorado, but said his understanding was it was mostly flat.
Such is not the case! The Blue is the better of the two Eisenhower (Air Force Academy) courses. Silver is more on the hill, but the Blue is by no means flat. It's very much an RTJ course and while I liked playing there I couldn't see it as more than perhaps a 5, but 5s are generally worthwhile if you have the chance.
Matthew,
Eisenhower Blue may be the single best Robert Trent Jones (Sr.) course I've ever seen. It gets far less press than it should and some recent reno work has really improved playability. In its current state, I honestly think it ranks in the top 10 in Colorado, and is better than any of the courses in the high country I have played. Definitely not flat by the way. And a beautiful setting. I think its a 6 on his scale, though that may be stretching it in some folks' eyes.
Tom would do well to include it and two or three other military courses worth seeing in the revision.
I would certainly love to see it since renovations. I spent time there in the mid-90s, when the AFA held sports camps in the summer (they may still do so, I don't know). The golf one was a pretty great deal. You lived in the dorms for a week and spent all day down at the courses, then in the evening you'd go back up to the academy and get into all sorts of mischief with the other "campers." They had some weeks where the focus was on teaching and one that was billed as more competitive. During that one you still spent a lot of time on the range and putting green and short game area, but there was also a weeklong points competition--you compiled points via skills tests and daily playing competitions (various match formats, stableford, etc.). It was great fun.
Blue was a wonderful course even then. I haven't seen too many RTJ courses but I like most of them. AFA Blue is no Spyglass Hill, but it does have some similar qualities to the forest holes at SH--holes play throughout the pine forest and there's lots of elevation change but it's used well and nothing feels arduous.
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Tom,
The Hooper Golf Club in New Hampshire is a blast!
This is the Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in Walpole, not North Walpole as I earlier reported, NH. It is now semi-private ie: open to the public after 10:30 AM. The greens fee is a knee wobbling $18. I had a member of the board who overheard me chatting with the pro offer (outside of my earshot ) to pay for my cart. I had to break the bad/good news to him that I am a walker. The Pro, Ron Rosko, cut his teeth at another classic down the road called Taconic.
Must, must , must include in the upcoming "Confidential Guide".
I took a bunch of pictures and in a few days will start a new thread here describing the golf course if everything works out and I have the time.
Cheers,
Malcolm
Ps: you can pm me as to where to send my check for my residual of the sales of the book. Also still awaiting my credential Kit as a Doak "rating ranger".
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You've got to update Oklahoma City G&CC - it's terrific.
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In Wyoming, Powder Horn in Sheridan is probably the place to visit, though I have not played Shooting Star in Jackson and have heard some good things about it. The downside to Powder Horn is that it's a "golf community" and some of the homes on the course are so large they could be mistaken for a clubhouse......
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Tom, I'm probably repeating a number of courses mentioned in this thread:
NH - Lake Sunapee, Lake Winnipesaukee, Bald Peak Colony
WY- Shooting Star, 3 Creek Ranch, Teton Pines
UT - Glenwild
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I'd like to request an update of the review for Cane Patch GC in Myrtle Beach, SC. Kidding of course, but I still get a big kick out of that review. Passed that spot a million times on vacation. Mat tees - hahahaha.
I've enjoyed the TCG a lot. Best wishes on the new edition!
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I am heading to Maine and New Hampshire next week to try and see a few of these courses for Volume 3. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, they have been a huge help!
P.S. I said three years ago that I had no plans to go to Alaska, and I still don't, but I'm wavering ... did everyone see Dom Furore's photos of Alaskan courses in the September GOLF DIGEST? The photo of Valley of the Eagles Golf Links is absolutely stunning. I would love to see that, but it's a pretty long detour, and it's getting pretty late in the year already!