Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Joe Bausch on July 11, 2012, 01:40:41 PM
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Recently I was fortunate to play Phoenixville CC (Phoenixville, PA). I was joined by
Dan Hermann Mike Cirba. ;)
A big shout out must go to the head pro at PCC, Matt Dever, and his assistant Tim Feroe. We were treated like long time members.
Much is known about the early history of P'ville, a club that organized in 1915 (the Phoenixville Golf Club the forerunner at a nearby site):
http://www.phoenixvillecc.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=292779&ssid=173495&vnf=1 (http://www.phoenixvillecc.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=292779&ssid=173495&vnf=1)
Many feel Hugh Wilson is the architect, and that very well could be true. I've been looking for concrete evidence of this claim, but am still looking... but I hope to have more soon on this aspect so I ask all that reply to this thread to 'stay in your lane' and keep this discussion about the course and what you see in the photos and not take this thread down some well traveled, very bumpy, road. :)
The course finally got all 9 holes open for play in 1920 (aside: President Harding played P'ville in 1921 on a visit to Senator Knox in nearby Valley Forge; Warren shot a 53, for those keeping score at home).
Together with Mark McKeever (a former member at the club) and Mike Cirba, we've been trying to piece together the original routing. We say this b/c I have an article from 1921 that describes a big 4 ball match there and with the info provided by Frank McCracken of the Public Ledger, the course then is not quite the same as it is currently. More on that later.
Here is the current routing of the course from an October, 2011 Google Earth aerial (pink are par 4's, green par 5's, and yellow par 3's):
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/phoenixville/phoenixville_routing.jpg)
There are plenty of challenges at P'ville, the biggest being navigating the greens. If you play the back tees, it tops out at 2832 yards. From the white tees at 2740. On the card you play the white the front, the blues the back (frequently the blue tees are slightly different angles too) for a total of 5572 yards with par of 70. You might be surprised to know it rates at 69.4/129.
#1. You tee off right in front of the pro shop across a water filled ravine on a slight dogleg right par 4 (350 yards) that plays much more uphill that it appears.
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/1a.jpg)
A good drive leaves a short iron in to a wonderful greensite:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/1b.jpg)
The approach shot plays much more uphill than we thought and we both came up short.
In this pic from short and right of the green, note how you see only about the top half of some very mature trees over the green. It is pretty steep back there and hence great care is needed on distance control for the approach.
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/1c.jpg)
This from short and left of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/1d.jpg)
I should have taken a pic from the 2nd tee back to the first green to show that over the green is dead.
#2. Drop-shot par 3 (146 yards). Some might say this looks familiar!
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/2a.jpg)
I don't know the elevation change, but it is significant (guessing maybe 80 feet).
From short and right of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/2b.jpg)
From long and left:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/2c.jpg)
From long and right:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/2d.jpg)
That green is very much sloped from right to left and that pin in particular was devilish. Mike was on the front of the green and his putt probably broke at least 10'.
#3. Dogleg left par 4 (342 yards), where the drive is blind to a fw that cants to the right.
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/3a.jpg)
It must be very hard to keep a ball in this fw, unless you hit a right to left shot into the slope.
If you don't hit your drive far enough, say still 150y in, you can't see the flag but you do have a directional flag:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/3b.jpg)
From a bit closer in you can begin to see the flagstick:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/3c.jpg)
You can pretty easily bounce one onto the green as it runs downhill pretty good, but does slope heavily to the right:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/3d.jpg)
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/3e.jpg)
In those two pics above you can see the tee for the dogleg left par 4 just behind the green to the left.
A view from the back edge of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/3f.jpg)
Three more holes tomorrow. 8)
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Thanks for starting the thread on Phoenixville Joe, its a neat little golf course and I enjoyed my time being a member there. (Work relocation to Houston forced me to drop it after graduating from Villanova)
The first hole is a wonderful starter and you really need to be feeling good early on to fire at that back flag. I have hit a bunch of shots maybe a yard or two long that end up leaving a full lob wedge up the hill from really shaggy rough. Also note that there is a pretty good amount of slop in the front of the green making putts from above the hole scary. Most people miss short and just chip/putt to the hole, and move on to hole 2.
Hole 2 is interesting because its much easier to get up and down from the valley/bunkers to the right than the left fringe. The slope is so severe its impossible to hold the green if you miss left.
Hole 3 is a difficult tee shot but if navigated correctly is a pretty straight forward hole. You definitely need to hit a draw off the tee or else you are forced to lay back a little bit. I like this green a lot, but wonder if it was much bigger in the earlier years. There used to be a very intimidating dog in the property to the right of the green. Made for some nervous chips with him barking right behind you.
Mark
PS, how is the original routing picture coming? I think we have it correct..
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Joe, et al.,
Did the 8th tee box once service the 4th green?
Good hunting.
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The first time I played Phoenixville #2, I thought I was at Merion West. That hole is a doppelganger for Merion West #5!
By the way, when I played, they had an antique ball washer - it was really cool - had a bucket of water with something (I think) to make a sand tee. IIRC, it was on the 5th tee.
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Joe, et al.,
Did the 8th tee box once service the 4th green?
Good hunting.
Very good Jim... that is exactly what we think!
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Joe, et al.,
Did the 8th tee box once service the 4th green?
Good hunting.
Ding Ding Ding! When I played out there, I would always think how it would be cool to play from 8 tee to 4 green. Looking at the old aerials, we can see that used to be the case!
Mark
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If you look directly above the two bunkers to the left of 3 green you can see an old tee that was used as a back tee of hole 4 while I was out there. I dont know if they still mow it....looks like they dont.
(this could be the original 8 tee) :)
Mark
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Joe,
The area looks to be well kept up. Short game area today?
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Its a short driving range. You can't hit it more than 150 yards or so without hitting into 8 tee. If the hole were in play as number 1 today, it would be drivable I think...especially with the last 70 yards of so being downhill.
Mark
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Looks really cool. I'm interested to see PCC, as well as Merchantville CC... another Golden Age 9-holer in the GAP district. If anyone has played the two, how do they compare?
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Looks like a fun place.
Not sure how I feel about the large flagstick/aiming point on #3. When you have trees back there that can serve as a similar aiming point, the tall flag seems kind of unnecessary, and it's sure not as elegant as something like an aiming rock or the bell tower at NGLA.
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Looks like a long walk from 1st green to 2nd tee. Is it?
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Looks like a long walk from 1st green to 2nd tee. Is it?
Little bit of a hike, maybe a touch over 100 yards.
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If I was guessing at an old routing/configuration for this course it would be:
present day 8th tee to 4th- old #1
5- " #2
6- " #3
7- " #4
8- " #5
2- " #6
3- " #7 - w/a green about 135 yds. ahead of the one in the photo, making it a 450 yd. par 5
1- " #8
9- " #9
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Looks really cool. I'm interested to see PCC, as well as Merchantville CC... another Golden Age 9-holer in the GAP district. If anyone has played the two, how do they compare?
Both are a blast Wayne. PCC perhaps gets the edge on more interesting terrain. MCC with more yardage. Both could use a chainsaw, maybe MCC you might wear out that saw sooner. MCC has a few holes with multiple greens making the place feel like 18 holes. Both in great condition.
Edit: and PCC has consecutive par 3's at 6 and 7, while MCC starts with back to back par 5's!
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The natives are getting restless Joe...Lets see more!
Mark
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Ding Ding Ding! When I played out there, I would always think how it would be cool to play from 8 tee to 4 green. Looking at the old aerials, we can see that used to be the case!
Mark
Any chance someone will post the old aerials?
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#4. Hard dogleg-right par 4 (305 yards). This is a rather indifferent hole for me.
You must hit through a narrow shoot of trees, needing about 200 yards max, preferably a little cut shot:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/4a.jpg)
From the tee the fw appears narrow, but it really isn't:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/4b.jpg)
You cross the chasm on a foot bridge, the same one used for the first hole (in the pic to the right):
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/4c.jpg)
If you don't hit your tee shot far enough, you'll have some trees to contend with on the inside of the dogleg:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/4d.jpg)
A real good tee shot leaves a short shot in:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/4e.jpg)
The only up-close green pic I have is from just short and left:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/4f.jpg)
Now on to my favorite hole on the course, the 5th.
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5a.jpg)
The 'road' here being the entrance to the club, which you cannot see from the tee b/c of a little rise:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5b.jpg)
This grouping of bunkers left are easily reached, where my tee ball landed and I had little choice but to layup with a short iron. A good drive just to the right of these bunkers can cross the road leaving 200ish in:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5c.jpg)
Because of challenging lighting, I don't have a good picture of a view after a good drive, which Mike had. This pic is from behind the right fw bunker across the road, giving the general idea of the preciseness required for the shot into the two-tiered green, which is pretty tiny with deep bunkers right and left:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5d.jpg)
From 50 yards out:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5e.jpg)
From just short and right of the green (I tried to get some real good pics of this green, but the lighting and my point-and-shoot camera could not overcome the shadowing):
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5f.jpg)
From just left of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5g.jpg)
And two views from behind the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5h.jpg)
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/5i.jpg)
#6. Par 3 (184 yards).
An early aerial suggests this might have had some Redan quality.
Tee view:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/6a.jpg)
Two views from short of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/6b.jpg)
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/6c.jpg)
From over the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville//6d.jpg)
We don't have conclusive proof yet, but we think this hole may originally had the green way farther back and playing as a par 4.
The last three holes tomorrow. :)
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If I was guessing at an old routing/configuration for this course it would be:
present day 8th tee to 4th- old #1
5- " #2
6- " #3
7- " #4
8- " #5
2- " #6
3- " #7 - w/a green about 135 yds. ahead of the one in the photo, making it a 450 yd. par 5
1- " #8
9- " #9
This is very much what we are thinking Jim. Except in a newspaper article from 1920 the 7th hole is described as a par 4. So, we think the green for the original 7th is the current 3rd green, and the tee for the old 8th being near the current 4th tee playing to the current 1st green.
I'll post a stick routing of what we think was the original routing later.
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Ding Ding Ding! When I played out there, I would always think how it would be cool to play from 8 tee to 4 green. Looking at the old aerials, we can see that used to be the case!
Mark
Any chance someone will post the old aerials?
Here is a 1937 aerial (courtesy of Penn Pilot):
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/1937PennPilot.jpg)
Here is a 1957 aerial:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/1957PennPilot.jpg)
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Here is my first pass at the routing originally at Phoenixville:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/phoenixville_routing_orig.jpg)
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Thanks for posting the old aerials.
I am curious as to why you think the the course went outside the existing property on your old third and fourth holes?
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Thanks for posting the old aerials.
I am curious as to why you think the the course went outside the existing property on your old third and fourth holes?
I have an article from 1920 that describes a prominent 4 ball match where the 6th and 7th holes are stated as being par 4's. I have no other information from the article to add to that, but it is clear they were par 4's. Could they have been calling these holes 2-shotters when one played a bit under 200 and the other a bit over 200? I'm thinking not, so I'm trying to find a way to make the data work. I'm not entirely confident in my original routing as that 1937 aerial shows what appears to be some fairly mature trees near where I think the original 3rd green and 4th tee would be located. But some trees do grow pretty quickly.
Or maybe I have the original hole sequences messed up! This 1920 article has the sequence of holes and pars as follows, with a little bit of other info for a couple of the holes:
1. Par 4
2. Par 5 (415 yards)
3. Par 4
4. Par 4
5. Par 5
6. Par 3 (described as being 'short')
7. Par 4
8. Par 4
9. Par 4 (has a brook in play, assuming it is near the green as two players in the foursome hit into it).
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I'll be surprised if the original course extended off the current property as you suggest. Some trees do grow fast, but not generally in a big bunch across what used to be two fairways. But you never know I guess.
The article mentions the 2nd hole was only 415 yards, so my guess is that it ended about where you have the fairway bending, only possibly closer to the road. That would give the third hole more room to stretch to around 260, and maybe give the 4th green a bit more room as well. For what it is worth.
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I played PCC in a GAP match a few years ago. Really great membership - very friendly and proud.
We got to talking after the round, and they said that the club was founded with 18 holes in mind, but they didn't have the money. Unfortunately, the land became desirable and PCC became landlocked with no room to grow - so she stayed at 9 holes.
For those of you outside Philly, Phoenixville is a town (borough, actually) that lives up to its name. I moved here in 1993, and Phoenixville was a typical ex-steel town with the abandoned mill and a downtown full of empty storefronts. Today, Phoenixville is THE place to be in these parts - lots of very cool dining, music, shops, and a really cool vibe. I'm very proud of Phoenixville.
The golf club is a couple of miles outside town, kind of between Phoenixville and Valley Forge.
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Really is a great revival story, now is the place to go. Did you see what they did with the steel mill? Google " the foundry phoenixville" great spot, cool little course too.
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Truly is an amazing story. I grew up in Audubon and there was nothing in Phoenixville. Fast forward years later, back home visiting the folks and some friends picked Phoenixville to meet, thought they had lost their minds. Boy was I wrong.
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Not to stray off topic, but it really is neat to see the town becoming "cool" again. I think it will be good for the club as well.
Mark
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#7. Uphill par 3 (214 yards).
The bunker left is greenside, the one right many yards short.
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/7a.jpg)
From short and right of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/7b.jpg)
The green is fairly big but has false sides:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/7c.jpg)
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/7d.jpg)
#8. Par 5 (446 yards).
Tee view, where a good drive carries the hill and really makes it a par 4.
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/8a.jpg)
A view back to the tees from where a typical drive to the bottom of the hill sits:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/8b.jpg)
Approach shot view:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/8c.jpg)
From just short of the nicely bunkered green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/8d.jpg)
From over the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/8e.jpg)
#9. Par 4 (371 yards).
A blind tee shot here but the line is fairly easy to guess.
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/9a.jpg)
From the beginning of the reasonable generous fairway, but the green is sitting way down below, not in view:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/9b.jpg)
A tee shot of say 225 yards leaves a partial view of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/9c.jpg)
My best drive of the day went to the very edge, leaving a sw in with a clear view:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/9d.jpg)
From just short of the green:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/9e.jpg)
A view from up on the hill near the clubhouse:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/9f.jpg)
That's all folks.
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Thanks, Joe!
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Great tour Joe! PCC is a neat place and I would probably still be a member there if I was in the area. As you can see from the pictures, your short game naturally gets sharp when you play here all the time.
Mark
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Thanks for the photos Joe. Looking at the uphill nature of the current 7th (original 4th) makes it a bit easier to see why they might have briefly called it a par 3, but still it seems a stretch. The old aerials suggest a backstop around at least part of the 7th green. Is there any sign of that still?
Here is an earlier aerial circa 1928 . . . As you can see the original 2nd looks a bit shorter and straight, and the original 3rd looks to have been a bit longer but to the same green site. While the green surrounds may have changed the original fourth was is about the same place.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Phoenixville-1928.jpg)
I've read the bit on the club website, and while I see they call it a Hugh Wilson design, the website also indicates, "Layout of the course was accomplished by the Golf Committee with some help from members of the Plymouth Golf Club."
Can you explain a bit about why the course is considered by some to be a Hugh Wilson course? Is it the similarity of the sixth hole to the short hole at Merion West, or is there something more? (I recall reading some mention of Hugh Wilson involvement somewhere but I cannot remember if this was from in a contemporaneous account or some secondary source like Shackelford or something.)
Thanks.
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David, thanks for that 1928 aerial. Very helpful. Is that available on some website?
Your aerial sure makes my hypothesis of the original 3rd and 4th holes being longer (with the 3rd green moved) very unlikely. Where do you think the original 3rd tee was located? About where the current 5th green is now, so playing along the property line as a pretty straight but fairly short par 4? Or could the tee have been off to the left of the current 7th green, so the hole would still be a short par 4 and maybe bending a little to the left?
I know that the Confidential Guide lists it as being a Wilson, but I think TD obtained that info from Bill Kittleman, the long time pro at Merion. I think Kittleman may have been the consulting architect for PCC in the recent past. I've not talked to Bill about this attribution, but someone I know is reaching out to him. And I've heard that a long time member at PCC, apparently quite a good player in his day, has evidence that it is a Wilson. I also am trying to track down this info.
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David,
Good find on the aerial! This makes sense now that 3 and 4 were shortish par 4's back in the day. There is an older gentleman by the name of J. Fred Christman who supposedly has proof of Wilson's involvement. While I was a member there I didnt really care about architecture a whole lot unfortunately so I never really picked his brain on it. He was a heck of a player and has won the majority of the club championships since it opened. When we played together, he mentioned that he had eagled every hole there more than once. Pretty wild.
I am going to try to get in touch with him and will relay the findings.
Cheers,
Mark
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Joe,
Judging from the fairway lines and what might have be a path I'd guess the third tee was very close to the original 2nd green so as to maximize what limited length they could get out of the hole. In other words not right next to the right property line. You speculated that the hole might have had redanish qualities, but looking at the photos and the old aerial I am wondering if it perhaps was supposed to play something like the 7th at Merion strategy-wise or perhaps even cape-ish where one had to hug the property line to leave the best angle for a short running shot. Of course the rest of the terrain doesn't match the 7th at Merion at all but I am envisioning the tee location as requiring tee shot slightly toward the OB.
I wonder if they might have tried to slip around the corner for the 4th tee, thus encroaching on on the 5th fairway but perhaps buying a few yards? Is there any sign of rear backstop mounding behind the 4th green? (This might have been a bit of habit for Wilson on short uphill par fours.)
As for the Doak reference, that might have been what I was recalling but I am not sure. I'll let you know if I remember where else I might have seen it.
As for the aerial here it is . . .
http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/PTS1928.PhilaMetroAerials.035
Lots of good stuff on that website, some of which I am sure you have seen elsewhere but some of which might be new to you. For example, ever heard of the now defunct Frankford Country Club?
http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/HSF%2ED2E15
http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/HSF%2ED2E16
Pretty cool renderings of what look to have been two very simple courses.
Anyway the website is definitely worth exploring as it contains a 1930 aerial Philadelphia survey (Dallin) and the 1928 aerial survey of the larger area, neither as sharp as some of the other Dallin stuff, but helpful nonetheless. There are also some neat topo maps including a 1910 topo of Fairmont Park, and some plans for some of the public courses (Terminal Island and Walnut Creek, I think). Also, you probably have seen it but here is a link to part of a 1938 topo of Cobbs Creek showing a number of tees, green sites, etc.
Sorry, forgot the link: http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/AS-15
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Very good info - Thanks :)
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Thanks Joe....as usual you've done a great job with photos and research.
Regarding Fred Christman; Fred retired around 2000 from GAP and moved to NC to be around relatives. I don't have an email address but his phone # is 252-482-1433. I'm sure he would be happy to pass on some history abot PCC as he holds more records there than probably anybody at any other golf club.
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I know a little bit about Frankford, mostly from Finegan's book. Those are very nice drawings that somebody saved after all these years!
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This being the 100th Anniversary of Phoenixville Country Club, a few of us were spurred to dig deeper into understanding the history, architectural and otherwise, of the club. As such, we reached out to the club, to the local historical society, to old newspapers, and to a specific older member.
While we do not yet have the evidence in hand, I'm really pleased to state that we're virtually certain that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of the nine hole Phoenixville course.
A bit of history first...
Phoenixville Country Club was the outgrowth of Phoenixville Golf Club, which was founded in 1900 by members of the Phoenixville Bridge Co, and the first President was Samuel Whitaker, a prominent state politician who lived in town. There were about 40 members and they played on farmland leased from A.W. Kley, a well-known baker who had a shop on Bridge Street, the former course having been on land which is today the site of the Schuylkill Elementary School.
In early April 1915 it was reported that Kley wanted the club to vacate as he wished to utilize the land for real estate but it was also reported that "A Committee of the Club have therefore been looking for available location for some time and this morning they decided to purchase the farm of Samuel Britton..." who had given them an option on 56 acres.
Moving swiftly, it was determined to hold a meeting to generate interest (and membership) in solidifying this purchase as well as proposing the establishment of a "Country Club" because "Almost every town the size of Phoenixville supports a country club and in a very short time it becomes an indispensable feature of the social life of the community." ..."A well managed country club with its attendant golf links and tennis courts, means not only healthy enjoyment to the many who play, but it would raise the tone of what is sometimes considered by those who do not know us, a dull manufacturing town."
At that final meeting of the "Phoenixville Golf Club" on 5/2/1915, it was announced that a committee composed of Federal Judge J. Whitaker Thompson and Samuel A. Whitaker had prepared a charter for the new Country Club which was read and accepted. A Capitalization plan was presented and a Board structure were announced and it was determined that the club would be a dry one.
The "Golf Club" then adjourned and proceeded with the organization of the "Country Club". Hon. J. Whitaker Thompson was unanimously elected President and the following men were elected directors: - Samuel J. Reeves (who headed the Green Committee), Norman R. McLure, Joseph Byrne, Malcolm Farmer, Sumner Gowen, Clyde McCormack, Frank L. Moister, J. Clarence Parsons and Judge Thompson.
The article reporting on the meeting continues; "It was decided by the Club to take up the option on the Brittain farm, obtained by the committee from the Golf Club, and to complete the purchase. The course has already been laid out by a professional, and it is expected that it will be in fair condition to play on by next spring. All of those present last evening signed the charter for the Phoenixville Country Club, thereby becoming charter members of the new organization."
I would not read too much into the mention of a "professional" as discrediting Hugh Wilson because the newspaper reports were in the general news section on the front page and it certainly could simply be understood as someone who was expert in that field like Wilson. Furthermore, these guys were extremely frugal (re: cheap) and in reading the accounts it's difficult to imagine them paying someone for that service, especially in a town with a history of amateur architects. It was also several years before the club hired either a club pro or a superintendent.
The following year it was reported on 6/9/16 that "Brittain Farm becomes Golf Links" and states as follows; "The Greens Committee, with Samuel J. Reeves as chairman, have had all the interior fences removed, have cleared a large part of the farm of bushes, have cut down and blown out many trees and have sowed the fields with rye and grass seed. Hundreds of tons of stone have been picked, many members of the Club spending their Saturday afternoons at this work. Trees (sp) and greens have been graded out and sowed in grass."
A picnic was organized that month for the purposed of showing the members the progress. On 6/27/16 it was reported that the picnic was held and "During the afternoon the members and guests wandered over the course which, at some points, affords a marvelous view up and down the Schuylkill Valley. The Handicap Committee arranged a tournament for the golf-playing members and while the course is not yet in good condition, the match was much enjoyed by about thirty entrants."
More to follow...
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Here is more up-to-date photo album of Phoenixville:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Phoenixville_2019/index.html (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Phoenixville_2019/index.html)
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Joe,
I'd be remiss not to mention that this latest flurry of research has involved the collaborative work of you, Mark McKeever, Jeff Silverman, a lurker or two, and my obsessive/compulsive disorder. The nice part is that this has been a case study on one researcher ' s work building on another's which is really how this all should work at its best.
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A totally subjective comment here, so please take it at that level. But as I was playing Phoenixville (and getting whipped during GAP matches by two great guys), I felt like I was at Merion West. That par 3 drop shot sure seems similar to Merion West's sweet baby par 3 on the front 9.
The place has a Wilsonian feel to me.
Did Flynn make an appearance too? (I need to get to my other PC to read the Morrison/Lurker book and see what it says on the subject) :)
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Looks like a really fun place to play. Nice photos, Joe. Can't believe I've never been - now plan on fixing that this year.
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I have been a member of Phoenixville the last few years and it's a course I never tire of playing. It certainly reminds me of other Wilson courses I have played in a few ways; the use of rolling terrain, simple yet effective bunkering and the value of repeat play. The greens at the Fifth and Eighth are especially intriguing. There are lots of challenging, visually intimidating and blind shots, which keeps things quite varied throughout the round. And with all the hills, it's certainly a work out walking the course.
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The first time I saw the mention of Hugh Wilson being associated with Phoenixville was from Tom Doak's "Confidential Guide" and it was a bit surprising. At the time, I had never seen or played the course and wasn't aware of the supposed provenance.
One day a few years back I sent an email to Tom asking the source of that information. He wrote back and if memory serves, told me the information came from former long-time Merion pro Bill Kittleman, who did some work on the course. I never asked Kittleman directly but heard that his information came from a long-time Phoenixville member and mulitiple time club champion there.
A few years ago Joe Bausch, Mark McKeever and I were graciously greeted at the club for some golf and allowed to view the historical materials available in the clubhouse. Not knowing much of the timing of the events I recounted in yesterday's post, we simply pretty much knew the club opened in 1915 and lo and behold, they provided us with Minutes of the Country Club that began in May 1915. We opened excited only to be later disappointed when we saw not a mention of Hugh Wilson, nor any other course architect. There was a mention of Alex Findlay coming by and making some recommendations in the early 20s, but alas, no word on the original course.
Joe digitized these minutes for the club and they were thrilled to have them for long-term archival purposes. At that point we were probably more confused than ever. We sort of understood that there had been some type of organization at Phoenixville prior to the Country Club but didn't know the direct timeline or understand that the course had already been laid out prior to the first entry in the "Country Club" Minutes.
One thing we did know is that the course was well routed on a tight acreage (56) which had a deep ravine and existing outbuilding and had needs for tennis and other functions associated with the Country Club purposes. An early description read; The property chosen is endowed with more natural beauty than would be found at any of the finest and most expensive clubs in this part of the country. The farm is on the crest of a knoll or plateau which spreads out just below the steep rise of the Valley Hills. A ravine, like a sunken garden, divides this plateau, and through this runs a stream bordered by meadowland and orchard. From the high level ground on which are located the buildings are is an unbroken view to the west as far as the Reading hills...To the east stretches the Schuylkill Valley to Norristown, with beautiful glimpses of the river in the foreground...The house is the typical old Colonial farmhouse of grey, since plastered, and with open fireplaces. It is full of possibilities and the level shaded lawn in front also suggests the atmosphere and environment of a charming country home, which is indeed the final touch that is lacking in so many country club houses."
More to follow...
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I sent this thread one of my friends Gregg Gipp, who,played for years at Phoenixville before moving to,the Jersey shore (south ) . He loved reading all your work .
Having a little knowledge of Phoenixville , I surmise you met up with Don Weiland , a legendary figure in Philadelphia Amateur Golf , who was a fixture at the club. I don't think it was Freddy Christman , another famous Phoenixville golfer and a long time supporter and integral member of the GAP (Golf Association of Philadelphia hierarchy . They still run a tournament named in his honor for junior golfers, the Christman Cup.
Nice job again guys. Phoenixville may have been the greatest "homer " course in Philly. Almost no one could beat the locals at home in inter club matches for years . Quirky and crazy all at once . Really interesting .
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Glad you're enjoying this thread Archie, and Gregg as well!
I'll try to get to the "rest of the story" later today as time permits. Thanks!
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I apologize for the fragmented telling of this story but it's been a busy time.
Just to recapsulate, we learned over the past few weeks that the golf course at Phoenixville had been designed prior to the actual formation of the "Phoenixville Country Club" in May of 1915, on 56 acres of land that had been optioned from Samuel Britton the month prior. At the time, the group of golfers were known as the "Phoenixville Golf Club" (circa 1900) and were being vacated from leased land and looking to form a full-fledged Country Club.
The last meeting of the Phoenixville Golf Club took place on May 2nd, 1915, at which time that organization was disbanded with each of the members being named Charter members in the newly formed Country Club, whose formalization took place later in that meeting.
For some time we have been in possession of the Club Minutes of the "Phoenixville Country Club" which begin later in May 1915 but there is maddeningly no mention of Hugh Wilson or any other original architect. Having recently learned the timeline described above, we began to suspect that the entry would have likely found in the Minutes of the "Phoenixville Golf Club", which we've been unable to locate to date.
Armed with this new information, we recalled that the source of Bill Kittleman's information was a long-time former member of Phoenixville named J. Fred Christman who had left the area a few years back. We decided to see if this gentleman was able to recall anything related to the minutes.
Mr Christman joined Phoenixville Country Club in 1946 and was club champion at least 18 times. He was also Club Secretary for a number of years and served as an officer in the Golf Association of Philadelphia. He is presently 82 years old and moved to North Carolina a few years back to be near family members. Our own Mark McKeever used to be a member at Phoenixville and was very friendly with Mr. Christman although hadn't spoken to him in a number of years.
Last week Mark reached out to Mr. Christman (who chastised Mark yet again for calling him "MR" Christman as he did in the days Mark was a member). Mark happily learned that Mr. Christman was alive, well, and still had a great recollection of events.
Here from Mark is some of what Mr. Chrstman recounted during the phone call;
-Schuylkill Elementary School, down by the Phoenixville YMCA was the site of the Phoenixville Golf Club before they relocated to Valley Forge (which we independently verified)
-When he was secretary and read the early minutes Phoenixville Golf Club Minutes that mentioned Hugh Wilson, they were in "a very old three ring binder". Fred was definitely surprised and unhappy to hear that the earliest minutes were not there...he even remembers they were upstairs.
-Doug Moister was the club Champion in 1914, Christman played him early on in his career, said he was a wonderful player. (we've independently confirmed he was a founding member
-Don Weiland, who died last summer was the son of a Founding member of PCC. His wife is still alive and may be able to help us. More on Mr. Weiland at these links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRAytfrsGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziioPVTIC4
-He also asked if we have been in touch with "The Merion boys" about the connection
His conclusion is that the minutes should have all been together and that someone must have taken them at some point and forgot to return them. It was not him though, and he said the minutes all used to be together. He suggested talking to Mr. Weiland's wife and seeing if Don may have stashed them away somewhere at their house. Other than that, he says that basically anyone from that era has died except for him and he hopes we can find the missing piece of the puzzle. He said not to give up, its out there somewhere.
He was happy to hear that 1915 minutes onward have been scanned in electronically and thanked Joe for those efforts.
As mentioned, at this point we feel very confident that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of Phoenixville based solely on the sharp recollections and sterling reputation of this beloved long-time standout in Philadelphia area golf, his role as Secretary of the Club, and his present mental acuity. We will continue to search for the earliest minutes but at this point, only for their archival historical purposes, not to prove the case.
We feel that's already been done, perhaps not to the satisfaction of some, but that's more than ok.
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Archie's mention of Gregg Gipp in relation to J. Fred Christman led me to this article. Archie, probably not one of Gregg's fondest memories but a pretty good indication of what a terrific player Mr. Christman was. http://articles.philly.com/1986-10-14/sports/26059954_1_club-titles-christman-mike-hausman
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I sent this thread one of my friends Gregg Gipp, who,played for years at Phoenixville before moving to,the Jersey shore (south ) . He loved reading all your work .
Having a little knowledge of Phoenixville , I surmise you met up with Don Weiland , a legendary figure in Philadelphia Amateur Golf , who was a fixture at the club. I don't think it was Freddy Christman , another famous Phoenixville golfer and a long time supporter and integral member of the GAP (Golf Association of Philadelphia hierarchy . They still run a tournament named in his honor for junior golfers, the Christman Cup.
Nice job again guys. Phoenixville may have been the greatest "homer " course in Philly. Almost no one could beat the locals at home in inter club matches for years . Quirky and crazy all at once . Really interesting .
Mike:
I just want to echo Archie here and say it's really neat to see such an in-depth look at an under-appreciated side of golf architecture (9-hole courses) and particularly glad to see you back here posting. Keep up the good work!
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Thanks, Phil...I really appreciate it. I love digging through history, especially in a collegial, collaborative effort such as this one and am gratified that others here enjoy our findings.
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I apologize for the re-post of this somewhat fragmented telling of this story but I did want interested folks to have an opportunity to see our conclusions on the current thread page.
Just to recapsulate, we learned over the past few weeks that the golf course at Phoenixville had been designed prior to the actual formation of the "Phoenixville Country Club" in May of 1915, on 56 acres of land that had been optioned from Samuel Britton the month prior. At the time, the group of golfers were known as the "Phoenixville Golf Club" (circa 1900) and were being vacated from leased land and looking to form a full-fledged Country Club.
The last meeting of the Phoenixville Golf Club took place on May 2nd, 1915, at which time that organization was disbanded with each of the members being named Charter members in the newly formed Country Club, whose formalization took place later in that meeting.
For some time we have been in possession of the Club Minutes of the "Phoenixville Country Club" which begin later in May 1915 but there is maddeningly no mention of Hugh Wilson or any other original architect. Having recently learned the timeline described above, we began to suspect that the entry would have likely found in the Minutes of the "Phoenixville Golf Club", which we've been unable to locate to date.
Armed with this new information, we recalled that the source of Bill Kittleman's information was a long-time former member of Phoenixville named J. Fred Christman who had left the area a few years back. We decided to see if this gentleman was able to recall anything related to the minutes.
Mr Christman joined Phoenixville Country Club in 1946 and was club champion at least 18 times. He was also Club Secretary for a number of years and served as an officer in the Golf Association of Philadelphia. He is presently 82 years old and moved to North Carolina a few years back to be near family members. Our own Mark McKeever used to be a member at Phoenixville and was very friendly with Mr. Christman although hadn't spoken to him in a number of years.
Last week Mark reached out to Mr. Christman (who chastised Mark yet again for calling him "MR" Christman as he did in the days Mark was a member). Mark happily learned that Mr. Christman was alive, well, and still had a great recollection of events.
Here from Mark is some of what Mr. Chrstman recounted during the phone call;
-Schuylkill Elementary School, down by the Phoenixville YMCA was the site of the Phoenixville Golf Club before they relocated to Valley Forge (which we independently verified)
-When he was secretary and read the early minutes Phoenixville Golf Club Minutes that mentioned Hugh Wilson, they were in "a very old three ring binder". Fred was definitely surprised and unhappy to hear that the earliest minutes were not there...he even remembers they were upstairs.
-Doug Moister was the club Champion in 1914, Christman played him early on in his career, said he was a wonderful player. (we've independently confirmed he was a founding member
-Don Weiland, who died last summer was the son of a Founding member of PCC. His wife is still alive and may be able to help us. More on Mr. Weiland at these links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRAytfrsGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziioPVTIC4
-He also asked if we have been in touch with "The Merion boys" about the connection
His conclusion is that the minutes should have all been together and that someone must have taken them at some point and forgot to return them. It was not him though, and he said the minutes all used to be together. He suggested talking to Mr. Weiland's wife and seeing if Don may have stashed them away somewhere at their house. Other than that, he says that basically anyone from that era has died except for him and he hopes we can find the missing piece of the puzzle. He said not to give up, its out there somewhere.
He was happy to hear that 1915 minutes onward have been scanned in electronically and thanked Joe for those efforts.
As mentioned, at this point we feel very confident that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of Phoenixville based solely on the sharp recollections and sterling reputation of this beloved long-time standout in Philadelphia area golf, his role as Secretary of the Club, and his present mental acuity. We will continue to search for the earliest minutes but at this point, only for their archival historical purposes, not to prove the case.
We feel that's already been done, perhaps not to the satisfaction of some, but that's more than ok.
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Joe, As a follow up on our previous conversation about the current 6th and 7th holes, is there any evidence of an old green beyond the current seventh green? Eyeballing it, I can't tell if the current 7th matches up with the greensite of the old 4th, or if it was closer to the current 5th fairway.
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As for the additions to the thread of the past few days, I have to say I am a bit confused about how, based on what has been added to the thread, that anyone could be "virtually certain that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of the nine hole Phoenixville course." But perhaps I've missed something crucial? Here is what I have gleaned.
1. There is a contemporaneous newspaper article which stated that as of May 1915, "The course has already been laid out by a professional."
Mike would have us ignore the reference to a professional because the article appeared on the front page of the paper (as opposed to the sports section, I guess.) I am not so inclined, especially if the report is a detailed account of the goings-on at the club/meeting. (Anyone care to post the actual article?) Mike also suggests the club members would have been too cheap to hire a professional to lay out the course. This, at best, is grasping at straws. Hiring a professional to quickly stake out a course would not necessarily be cost-prohibitive, even for the cheapest of club members.
2. While Mr. Christman has some recollection that old club minutes "mentioned Hugh Wilson," the whereabouts of these minutes are presently unknown. Surely this is not the basis for concluding that Wilson was the architect, is it? Surely there must be more. What sort of mention? What did the minutes say about Wilson's involvement? Do the minutes say Wilson was the actual designer? Do the minutes mention the professional? What exactly does Mr. Christman remember about these minutes? And how long has it been since he read them? Did he ever write down what the minutes said?
3. Mike claims the "proof" is based on "based solely on the sharp recollections and sterling reputation of this beloved long-time standout in Philadelphia area golf, his role as Secretary of the Club, and his present mental acuity." With regard to Mr. Christman, I am not doubting any of these things. But Mr. Christman is only 82 years old, so he wasn't there in 1915. Not even close. He is going off of something he remembers reading in the minutes when he was secretary of the clubs. Thus far, no one has said exactly what he remembers, other than that the minutes "mention" Hugh Wilson. Surely this does not answer the question, does it? Earlier in this thread there were a number of suggestions that Mr. Christman had proof that Wilson was the designer. So what is the proof?
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Just to be clear, I think it possible that Wilson was involved in the creation of the Phoenixville course. But this idea that he has been "proven" to be architect and that no further efforts to "prove the case" are necessary? Well . . . there must be something that has been left out of the proof, because so far it just doesn't follow.
Here is an alternate hypothesis, and one that may or may not be true, but is actually consistent with all of the information that has thus far been brought forward. Maybe Phoenixville had a professional quickly stake out (or lay out) a rough golf course on their new land, as reported. Maybe then the club consulted with Hugh Wilson regarding the layout, and about how to construct the course, grow grass, etc, and that was mentioned in the minutes, as Mr. Christman recalls.
Not saying this is what happened, but at least this is consistent with all that has been brought forward thus far. At least it doesn't require us to ignore the contemporaneous record or to exaggerate the case.
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Perhaps one thing I haven't made clear in my brief summation of events is that Mr. Christman had been telling folks locally for decades that the old Minutes of the club indicated that Hugh Wilson was the original architect of Phoenixville. We had previously assumed that perhaps he had reviewed those minutes first-hand in his role as Club Secretary but didn't know for sure. We simply knew that he was the primary source of information relied upon by Bill Kittleman and others and later recounted in Tom Doak's book.
Once we learned that he was the source, and armed with more contemporaneous information regarding the evolution of Golf Club to Country Club and the timing of the planning of the new golf course it confirmed our suspicions that the new course was already designed before the formation of the Country Club, (whose minutes we were in possession of) we located Mr. Christman and asked him for any memories of the original Golf Club minutes which he was happy to share with us. All of Mr. Christman's other contentions are borne out by facts we can independently verify.
I doubt he'd ever thought he'd have to explain himself further and we won't do so. If anyone wants to help us locate the "Very old 3-ring binder" that used to "be upstairs" and "should have all been together" that held the original minutes please let us know as we'd be happy for others to join us.
There are other avenues being explored such as the fact that first President J. Whitaker Thompson was also a member of Merion Cricket Club by the early 20s (we're uncertain the year he joined), but as mentioned, at this stage we're quite confident that we both understand the source of the rumored Wilson provenance as well as the facts and contentions that support it.
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Would someone please post the 1915 article indicating that a professional had already laid out the course? Seems too important just to gloss over.
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Joe, As a follow up on our previous conversation about the current 6th and 7th holes, is there any evidence of an old green beyond the current seventh green? Eyeballing it, I can't tell if the current 7th matches up with the greensite of the old 4th, or if it was closer to the current 5th fairway.
The location of the current 7th green is pretty much at a high point. It falls off decently until you are down in the 5th fairway.
I've never really looked to see if there could be any evidence of a green beyond the 7th, but will on my next visit.
And to be clear on my current position, I want some sort of written record of Wilson's involvement. Am I confident he was involved in the design? Yes.
Am I certain at this time? No, I'm not.
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No way there was a green long of current 7. He must be thinking of 6.
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Thanks Joe. I see what you mean in the photos. It looked to me in the old aerials that the old green sat very close to the adjacent fairway so I was thinking it may have been further along, but I haven't actually done an overlay to check it out. No matter.
As for the rest, your take on the matter seems more reasonable.
Any chance you, Mike, or anyone will post the 1915 article indicating that a professional had already laid out the course?
Thanks Again.
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My good friend Joe is a scientist and therefore has a much higher standard of proof than I do. ;)
On the other hand, there are others who I'm certain even if we find the original Minutes that will insist on carbon dating and handwriting analysis. :)
I do have to wonder however; have we now set a new standard for golf course architectural credit where only the discovery and display of original club minutes is satisfactory? I do recall certain folks warning about the frailties of contemporaneous news articles as well as the incompleteness and bias of internal Club Minutes depending on which argument best suited their purposes.
All of that said, my first post on this thread stated that we were now "virtually certain" about the Wilson lineage. Perhaps that could be also described as "confident".
Later I mentioned that our ongoing search for the original Minutes was not meant to prove the case but to preserve them for historical purposes.
Myself, I no longer have doubts about what Mr Christman saw as to the original course architect being Hugh Wilson based on his sterling reputation, his lengthy stint as Club Secretary, his attention to detail, passion for the game, his club, and its history, and his sharp memory. However, any one of one hundred former or current members or more may have walked with those archives so I'm dubious whether they'll be found. I'm no longer dubious about their contents.
I also took a day off work and spent it in the Phoenixville historical archives two weeks ago going through microfiche of old newspapers. My payments to copy articles were not onerous but I'm thinking that I'll just donate them to the club for anyone who wants to come and view their historical records. Phoenixville is a lovely town to visit and the course is certainly worth seeing for anyone with a true historical interest.
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Mike, if you want to pretend you've proven that Wilson was the architect, knock yourself out.
As for your refusal to post the article indicating otherwise, I can't say I'm surprised. I guess "corroborative effort" only applies to those who accept your position.
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A bit more on the frugal nature of the club as relates to the possibility of hiring a "professional" to design the course...
I've previously quoted articles that mentioned that the members themselves did most of the work of clearing and construction during their free time. When the club was first formed, a "sum not to exceed $100" was authorized for "putting into shape the proposed fair greens and putting greens on the Brittain farm."
In actuality, the princely sum of $136.93 was spent for course construction and grow-in, but the board authorized the "excess expenditure".
As mentioned, there was no money for a ground crew to build or maintain the course so members volunteered to pick up stones, remove stumps, and do other maintenance work.
What would have been the going rate at that time (1915) to hire an architect like Alex Findlay (who practiced pretty extensively locally at that time) for a nine hole course?
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I also took a day off work and spent it in the Phoenixville historical archives two weeks ago going through microfiche of old newspapers. My payments to copy articles were not onerous but I'm thinking that I'll just donate them to the club for anyone who wants to come and view their historical records. Phoenixville is a lovely town to visit and the course is certainly worth seeing for anyone with a true historical interest.
I'll send you a 15 ball pack of Nitro golf balls if you post the articles. ;D
What harm could come from posting what you dug up?
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Jim...you big spender you! :) Are you sure you weren't an original member of Phoenixville? ;)
Since you asked so nicely I'll see what I can do. Right now I just have them on paper printouts from microfiche.
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Here's an interesting paragraph from the Nov 1916 minutes:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/Nov_1916_minutes_blurb.jpg)
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And according to this article from golf writer Frank McCracken of the Public Ledger, the course wasn't completed until spring of 1920:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville/Apr25_1920_Ledger.jpg)
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Joe,
The mention of Morris Talman, pro at Plymouth, is a great find. He grew up caddying at Aronimink and was best friends with John McDermott. He left Plymouth in 1918 for Whitemarsh Valley where he served for over 40 years.
The fact that you found it in the Minutes of the Phoenixville Country Club which started in May 1915 could also be the source of the mention that they got help from several members of the Plymouth Country Club who had experience in this line of work that's mentioned in the club's 75th anniversary booklet and quoted on their website.
I wonder if the work actually was done or if the Minutes indicate anything further in this regard? Mr. McLure would be Norman R. McLure, one of the club's directors. At the time, Samuel J. Reeves was head of the Green Committee so it may have been an offer, or suggestion, than any actual work, especially paid work. It does sound a bit like Talman was trying to drum up business in this regard.
The mention of the course opening in 1920 is a curious one, and I suspect it closed for some period during WWI. From the same 75th anniversary booklet it mentions that the course opened in late spring 1916 with a match against Plymouth CC, and I have an article that has the members playing the rough-hewn course in late June 1916. It also mentions that by 1917 the club had 105 members and the course and tennis courts were pronounced "in good condition", assumiingly quoting the Minutes.
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What's the time frame for any Wilson contribution, after Talman, before?
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Jim,
It would have been prior is our understanding. The course was already routed prior to May 1915 when the Country Club was formalized. That is why we are so eager to find the "very old three ring binder" containing the "Golf Club" minutes that Mr. Christman referred to where he saw the Hugh Wilson attribution.
Last night I sent Joe the related articles I found that you recently requested and I'm hoping he'll get a chance to post them here later today.
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Last night I sent Joe the related articles I found that you recently requested and I'm hoping he'll get a chance to post them here later today.
Curiously, I'm going to be back out at Phoenixville today for some golf and looking around.
Here are those articles from Mike, and later today I'll get them all dated:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville_articles/ (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville_articles/)
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Dig deep Joe. Maybe that binder is up in that second floor somewhere......
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I just spent my morning reading the Phoenixville "Country Club" minutes that begin on May 3, 1915 (thru early 1923) that begin;
"The organization of the Phoenixville Country Club followed the adjournment of a meeting of the Phoenixville Golf Club held in St. Peter's Parish Home."
"At an informal meeting of 13 members of the Golf Club held at the home of Sumner Gowen on April 4th, 1915, it had been decided to take an option on the Brittain Farm near Valley Forge and sufficient funds were contributed for this purchase by those present."
"At a special meeting of the Golf Club held at the Phoenix Club rooms on April 7th it was decided to take over (sp?) this option and to organize a country club known as the Phoenixville Country Club. The meeting of the Golf Club held this evening at the Parish House was for the purpose of learning of the report of the Finance Commitee and the committee appointed to draw up a charter. These reports being favorably received, the Golf Club meeting adjourned and the organization of the Country Club followed."
From an architectural standpoint, it seems uncertain whether the club ever took Morris Talman's (pro at Plymouth) offer of assistance that Joe mentioned earlier. Certainly there was no formal authorization, which would have been required if he was to have been paid.
However, it is clear that "Mr Finlay" (later spelled Findlay, most assuredly Alex) of John Wanamakers Store met with the club in the spring of 1921 and "outlined his opinion as to how the present links could be changed so as to make a longer and more pleasurable course". Estimate of the work was $5,500. The club agreed to sell bonds to finance this work as well as construction work in the clubhouse.
Part of the recommendation included an irrigation system to tees and greens. Other changes proposed by Findlay that were approved included, "complete 5th green, enlarge 7th green, begin work on 9th fairway and green, do the rough work on new 7th green across the ravine and new 8th tee, put in bunkers and fill at 8th green." The next month the Greens Committee was authorized to "enlarge #1 green, build and trap a new #4 green, and build a new 9th tee."
Findlay came back to inspect the work on May 21st. Unfortunately, due to a hot summer the grass on the new greens didn't take and by late fall it was determined that nothing could be funded further.
In 1922 it was reported that re-grassing of several greens had taken place, and later that year that the new 7th green (assuming it was across the ravine) had opened, but no such green still exists today (which is today's #3 hole).
In early 1923 the club was seriously considering the question of whether to hire a full-time Superintendent..
It seems rather unlikely based on this reporting and the formal manner that Findlay is introduced in the minutes of 1921 that he was actually the original architect from back in spring of 1915.
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Dig deep Joe. Maybe that binder is up in that second floor somewhere......
No sign of that binder on the 2nd floor.
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The plot thickens...
As mentioned, Joe Bausch went to Phoenixville yesterday to play and to search for the "very old 3-ring binder". Alas, no luck there sadly.
Further, in discussions with the club he learned that they had contacted the wife of Mr. Weiland who passed last year and she didn't have it either. We may have reached a dead end and will likely never know the whole story without finding the binder, or at least be able to prove the whole story to everyone's satisfaction.
I also mentioned yesterday that I spent the morning going through the Minutes we do have for Phoenixville Country Club, which begin on May 2nd, 1915 at the dissolution of the "Golf Club" and creation of the new "Country Club". Also, as mentioned prior, the course had already been routed prior to that date on 56 acres of land the club had optioned.
One thing I learned over the past few days is that the actual growing in of the course was a multi-year process, interrupted by World War I. That war in itself has been problematic for golf course researchers, and we've seen in various cases where a course was routed by an architect prior only to open after the war, in some cases with the architect no longer involved. We've seen that in the case of Schuylkill and Ashbourne with Willie Park, for instance, where those courses were routed by Park in 1916 but didn't open until 1921 or so. In the case of Phoenixville, although the course was open to members for play at least some of the year (in seemingly pretty rough condition from the sounds of it) from probably 1917 on, it wasn't until 1920 when the club actually had their "coming out" party, so to speak, and invited two local pros to play an exhibition match against two top local amateurs, which I've covered in the articles Joe Bausch linked to above. Even then, the club still didn't have an irrigation system, a pro, or a superintendent.
However, in going through the minutes again later yesterday, I spied something that may be relevant to the creation story. As mentioned, the local papers on May 3, 1915 mentioned that the course had "already been laid out by a professional." Given that the writing was more attune to a local community paper than any sports writer who understood golf nuance, I didn't take it at face value, especially given Mr. Christman's recollection of the Hugh Wilson attribution in the old "Golf Club" minutes which he just reconfirmed for us last week. Here's the article;
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Phoenixville_articles/mediafiles/l4.jpg)
Still, as I viewed the minutes the name sounded very familiar when I noted the last payment entry from the meeting of May 8th, 1915, as seen following;
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8694/16402079213_0dc4b5af0f_z.jpg)
Sure enough, some further digging confirmed my instincts and I reached out to Philadelphia PGA historian Pete Trenham to see what he knew about one James B. Hackney, one of four golf professional brothers who learned the game caddying at Carnoustie.
Here's what I was able to determine;
James (Jimmy) Hackney was first employed at the original Philadelphia Country Club course as an Assistant Pro from about 1909-11, then moved to Bala Golf Club from 1911-13 (his brother William took over for him at Bala in March 1915), then to Aronimink from 1914-17, to North Hills from 1918-20, then Green Valley from 21-22 and finally Merchantville (NJ) 23-24, all serving as Head Professional.
It should be noted that J. Whitaker Thompson, a federal judge and first President of Phoenixville Country Club was also a member of Bala Golf Club in 1912, so he almost certainly would have known Hackney. Thompson also later became a member of Merion Cricket Club, if only to confuse future researchers. ;) Seriously we're trying to establish the date he joined but know he was a member by 1922.
So, could the "Professional Services" that Hackney provided related to routing the golf course? We don't know, but it seems possible giving the timing. We have no record of Hackney ever involved with any design activities in the Philadelphia area, but that doesn't necessarily rule him out.
I've also started a thread here related to typical fees for golf pros designing courses at that time, trying to determine if the seemingly paltry amount of $17.80 was somewhat standard fare. Evidently that amount translates to about $414 in 2015 terms, which might be a decent day's pay depending on what he did. Even so, it seems more likely that a day's work routing a course might be some flat fee...what's with the .80 cents?
Or, could this have been for services provided to the former Phoenixville Golf Club during some of 1914? Might he have provided the golfers at that club lessons, or equipment, balls, and such? Perhaps this amount was simply to settle up any debt to him for services from the previous year? Again, finding the binder of the Phoenixville Golf Club would be invaluable in determining the full story.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7618/17021358511_99afe30acd_z.jpg)
Could it be that both stories are possible? Might these very well-connected rich guys have had a few folks up to view the proposed new property for its suitability as their future home? Certainly second opinions would be valuable, I'd think...perhaps even a few proposed routings to consider from different individuals might be prudent. It seems natural to consider.
I suspect that like most things around Philadelphia at that time, some degree of collaborative effort was involved, with a number of cooks over the broth, and it would seem to me that's the most likely scenario as I feel very confident that Mr. Christman's detailed recollections of Hugh Wilson's involvement are accurate, yet it's also clear that Wilson wasn't directly involved in the construction and grow-in phases, or at least the Minutes don't reflect his involvement.
In any case, it's a fascinating if somewhat frustrating story. We're hopeful that old binder will show up somewhere, someday.
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A bit more of Mr. Hackney...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8690/17021927361_345ff22b84_z.jpg)
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Mike,
Lot of cooks in the Phoenixville kitchen, hope you find the 3-ring binder and the magic ingredient you're looking for. ;)
p.s. if you see the initials C.B.M. in the notebook please keep it to yourself. ;D
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Jim,
Thanks, it really is perplexing without that very old binder that Mr. Christman referenced.
I'd really like to know what Hackney was paid for. It would help solidify things in my mind if he had any prior design experience but I can't find a mention of him in that regard. He also had no other design attributions I'm aware of after Phoenixville was built despite quite a bit of golf course construction taking place near Philadelphia right after WWI.
Further, the routing at Phoenixville is a quite good routing across a property that has some challenges. Either he was a bit of a first time's the charm kind of guy or perhaps his "Professional Services" were for something else like equipment or lessons.
On the other hand, if Hugh Wilson had been more involved one wonders if the club would have had their early agronomic struggles that are documented in the minutes. Every couple of months they were exceeding budget and needing more manure, or more mushroom stuff, or more fertilizer, etc. and needing to go to the board for authorization. That being said, it's not like they cultivated and planted the entire property prior and having been used to playing on leased farmland prior, probably thought they could do it on the cheap, without irrigation and without a full time knowledgeable superintendent. It pretty much was a case of pay me now or pay me later.
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Mike, If this case has been "perplexing" and "frustrating" for you it is perhaps because you have had a desired conclusion in mind from the beginning, and so you are trying to twist and rationalize away the historical record in order to keep propping up your desired result.
Take, for example, the 1915 article which stated, "The course has already been laid out by a professional." You don't want this to be true, so you make up attenuated (and, frankly, laughable) reasons to ignore this article. You don't take it at face value because it was on the front page of the newspaper as opposed to the sports page. You don't take it at face value because in your mind the writing was "more attuned to a local community paper," whatever that is supposed to mean.
Look at the article. It is full of detailed information which could only have come directly from sources within the club itself. Yet you insist on ignoring it because you don't like the content. And you are taking a somewhat similar approach with the other two references to professionals who may have been involved with the creation of the course. You have no contemporaneous record of Hugh Wison having even been involved, yet you insist you have proven he is the architect. You've got three references to professionals potentially having been involved, yet you rationalize away each one.
It is quite obvious from the beginning that your really want Hugh Wilson to have been the architect, and that you will dismiss, ignore, or rationalize away anything which leads to any other conclusions.
This is not how sound analysis is supposed to work. Wishful thinking isn't enough.
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David,
You are a funny guy. I am the one who brought all of the evidence about "a professional" to public light on this thread, through researching the old newspapers and the Country Club minutes. I'm the one who made the connection to James B. Hackney that had previously gone unnoticed so your accusations of my having a foregone conclusion are simply absurd on the face of them.
The fact is that there was a "Phoenixville Golf Club" that preceeded the "Phoenixville Country Club" by 15 years and a long-time member and former Club Secretary who is quite remarkably well at 82 years and who has a sterling reputation clearly recalls the Minutes from this organization being in the clubhouse, upstairs, in a very old three ring binder. He also has stated that these Minutes indicate that Hugh Wilson was the course architect. He certainly has no reason to lie, he's been saying this for decades before anyone cared about this stuff, and I'm not sure why you or anyone else would be inclined to not believe him.
Not being able to find that binder is indeed frustrating when one is seeking to know the entire story, no matter who the architect. Why wouldn't it be? I've never said that I "proved" anything here but I do think we're a lot further down the road of understanding the timelines and much of the early history of the golf course.
If you're now satisfied that the club hired a teaching pro with no architectural experience in 1915 to lay out their golf course for $17.80 and that's what "Professional Services" meant, then you're free to move on.
If instead you simply feel the need to troll my every post you're welcome, but it really isn't very becoming or attractive and everyone here sees that, I must tell you.
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Mike, I haven't accused you of unethically hiding or suppressing relevant information, so I am not sure what you are on about. My comments have nothing to do with the factual information you have brought forward and everything to do with your shoddy analysis and over the top pronouncements, such as when you claim you have proven that Wilson was the architect, or when you dismiss the other facts for no valid reason. While I appreciate the information you have brought forward, I wouldn't think you would feel that you deserve some special commendation for so doing.
For example, While I appreciate that you you did bring forward the mention of the professional having laid out the course, you immediately dismissed it for no good reason, and when I asked you post the article you first refused. Fortunately you soon thought better of such a petty and evasive move. Unfortunately, you are still aren't giving the contents its due. The second part is the problem.
As for me supposedly trolling your thread, you and others may want to take a look at the first few pages. This thread was started while you were away, and it functioned quite well with my contributions. Am I no longer allowed to post about Phoenixville now that you are back? If anything has upset the balance it is that you seem to think that your analysis is beyond challenge.
As I said earlier, go ahead and keep ignoring the factual record and pretending that you have proven that Wilson is the architect.
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I generally find when someone has to misrepresent you to make their point that it's not worth responding to.
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Misrepresented you? I've misrepresented nothing. You stated you were "virtually certain" that Wilson was "the Architect" at Phoenixville, and so far as you were concerned, the facts were in and you had proven your case, and any additional information would only be sought for "archival" purposes:
"We will continue to search for the earliest minutes but at this point, only for their archival historical purposes, not to prove the case.
We feel that's already been done."
I understand why you'd not want to stand by such a ridiculous assertion, but it is bush league for you to pretend like I misrepresented you. I did no such thing.
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David,
The Phoenixville Country Club is celebrating their 100th year anniversary and are excited to learn more about their history and a number of members and staff have been following this thread in that regard. As such, please refrain from further dumping of your personal vendetta on Joe Bausch's thread here as they deserve a little respect and decorum and don't deserve having this thread turn into another public pissing contest. I'm sure everyone, myself included, are appreciative of the 1928 aerial you found online that you provided here a few years ago as proof of your interest. Thank you. Now please stop embarrassing yourself and I'll happily go back to ignoring you.
On a happier note, a friend sent along some scorecards of Phoenixville he found at the USGA. Unfortunately, all of them are after the course changed hole sequencing but they are still a nice addition here.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8788/17054662025_b571f19612_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7690/16432227264_277613545b_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7618/17053851221_8ca32987b4_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7659/17028671656_49e99931ff_z.jpg)
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Mike, speaking of pissing contests, how many more times are you going to respond to me to tell me you aren't responding to me?
As for my participation, please don't try to tell me where and when I can post. And keep in mind that, had I not challenged you, some might have mistakenly believed that you had actually found proof indicating that Wilson was the architect. And it was after my cajoling that you produced the newspaper article so that others could consider for themselves the importance of a detailed contemporaneous account indicating that a professional had laid out the course. And without my challenge you and Joe might not have found the other two references to early professionals potentially having been involved.
In short, rather than insulting me perhaps you should be thanking me for refusing to accept your blanket pronouncement that Hugh Wilson was "almost certainly the Architect."
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An interesting parallel might be what happened at Lancaster Country Club, site of this year's US Women's Open and located in the rural county next to Chester County, home of Phoenixville.
Like Phoenixville, Lancaster began golf in 1900 on a nine-hole course on leased farmland. John Reid, a pro from the Philadelphia area was hired to lay out nine holes on that farmland and was paid $28 for his efforts at that time.
Around 1913, the club determined that it needed bigger digs and a property (Wirth Farm) of 150 acres became available. Five (5) members purchased the property and then sold whatever the club needed for their new home at no profit.
Sixty acres were originally purchased and a nine-hole course was laid out by a unnamed professional who was paid $100 for his work.
The new location opened in late 1913. To date, we've still never been able to determine who laid out the first nine holes at Lancaster, or how much of those holes were retained by William Flynn later that decade when the club went to 18 holes.
By comparison, if the $17.80 Phoenixville paid to James B. Hackney was indeed for golf course design services they got themselves a real steal of a deal considering local comparative rates.
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I know a little bit about Frankford, mostly from Finegan's book. Those are very nice drawings that somebody saved after all these years!
Joe, Do you know who designed the original Frankford course, and what year the club was founded? Did Tillinghast have any involvement at Frankford? Thanks.
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The fact is that there was a "Phoenixville Golf Club" that preceded the "Phoenixville Country Club" by 15 years and a long-time member and former Club Secretary who is quite remarkably well at 82 years and who has a sterling reputation clearly recalls the Minutes from this organization being in the clubhouse, upstairs, in a very old three ring binder. He also has stated that these Minutes indicate that Hugh Wilson was the course architect. He certainly has no reason to lie, he's been saying this for decades before anyone cared about this stuff...
Joe Bausch and I had the opportunity to learn more about the origins of Phoenixville and the Hugh Wilson lineage while having the honor of giving a tour of the Cobb's Creek property to a 91-year old gentlemen who used to play Skins games with Charlie Sifford and Howard Wheeler in the 1950s while attending Penn Law School that long-time Philadelphia PGA Historian Pete Trenham (with son Mike) introduced us to.
This gentleman was sharp as a tack and also had been a long time member of Phoenixville. He conveyed to us that the McAvoy family (father Tom Bell McAvoy, Sr was a Charter member of Phoenixville and prominent local businessman) and son Tom Jr. were the source of the information on Hugh Wilson that other long-time members like Fred Chrisman (who sadly passed since I last posted on this thread) and our new friend as well as others like Bill Kittleman anecdotally passed along over the years.
This second-hand account gave significant new credence to the Wilson story, at least from mine and Joe's perspective. We'd still love to locate the three-ring binder with the club minutes of the preceding entity (Phoenixville Golf Club), but I no longer have much doubt that the story is true. Others can decide for themselves.
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Also, this seems as good a place as any to put this item I was able to photograph in the Merion Clubhouse this past autumn. It's a letter from Hugh Wilson's daughter Louise to writer Charles Price after reading his article in Golf Digest for the 1981 US Open. Louise was born in 1906 so would have been just a young girl during these events but seems quite sure of her knowledge of what transpired.
Price's article contained two inaccurate statements; that Wilson was born in Scotland and that he never designed any courses besides Merion, both of which she sought to clarify and correct.
Will transcribe letter later
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:P
When I first read this I felt like I had traveled back in time. Indeed I did given the thread started in 2015. Anybody new to the site would have no idea how many "spirited" discussions like this occurred in the early days. As much as Moriarity comes across badly at times. he brought plenty of life to the party. TEP and Moriarity had some of the best tete a tete's re: Merion that ever graced the pages here. Throw Pat Mucci into the mix and you had quite a donnybrook, 8) 8) 8)
Must say today's crowd shows more mutual respect but some fun reading in the day !