Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Garland Bayley on June 15, 2012, 01:04:20 PM
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Is there no photo tour of this course? I thought there was so didn't take pictures.
Gold Mountain Olympic just got booted down my favorites list by this course.
But then, if you know me you know I enjoy walking hilly golf, and you can understand my enthusiasm for Fircrest.
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Another solid Macan.
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Garland, how about that whacky second hole? Love the approach to a semi-punchbowl created by the knob in front of the green. The 17th is another favorite. Brad Klein likes to use a photograph of that green to show the effect of forestation - without the trees behind the green, Mt. Ranier was previously visible. I also liked the 18th green quite a bit. I need to re-visit.
Regardless of the architecture, Pacific Northwest golf is hard to be from a walk-in-the-park perspective.
Bogey
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2 and 17 were real cool. Many of the holes were just plain beautiful, not to mention solid golf holes to boot.
The movement of the land in almost all the fairways was extensive and impressive. I had used Google Earth elevation tool to see how much elevation change there was before I went. I was surprised by what I found with it, but when I got there I knew what to expect.
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Fircrest... with a couple little tweaks, top-100 in the U.S. - easy - IMHO.
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Jeff, I don't see that but value your opinion. Please elaborate.
Thanks.
Mike
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Jeff,
With the caveat that I haven't see Eugene CC, I came away wondering how it could be better than Fircrest.
Pac Dunes gets some of its cred from having all that dunal movement in the fairways. Fircrest has similar movement without being built on dunes.
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Jeff, I don't see that but value your opinion. Please elaborate.
Thanks.
Mike
Sorry for the delayed response, Mike.
In brief, the bones are there at Fircrest - nice property, fine routing, some really cool greens. I've also seen some historic materials that suggest some of the original bunker schemes/looks were much more interesting/attractive than what you see out there today. Restoring bunkers, tweaking some grass lines, a bit of tree work, etc. would go along way at Fircrest, where the essential elements are already in place.
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Fir has a crest?
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Paging Jeff Mingay to update us on his bunker work at Fircrest.
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Looks like he started earlier this week.
You can view some photos on his Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mingay-Golf-Course-Design/179821862051489
Jeff recommended a friend and I play here on our way back from Bandon but we got rained out. I'll have to hit it up in the summer.
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Jordan,
I saw that FB post earlier in the week. I was hoping that Jeff could give us some background and maybe another picture or two of his work at Fircrest. The more I learn, the more of an AV Macan fan I am becoming.
Please send a message when you return in the summer.
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Jordan,
I saw that FB post earlier in the week. I was hoping that Jeff could give us some background and maybe another picture or two of his work at Fircrest. The more I learn, the more of an AV Macan fan I am becoming.
Please send a message when you return in the summer.
I'm sure Jeff has some more pics.
Do you play at Fircrest Ben?
I'm finally self employed and can't wait to do more trips this year because I have more than two weeks holidays! The most efficient one would be Washington State. Would love to play Fircrest, Tacoma, Broadmoor, Overlake and Inglewood. Maybe even try and see if Gamble Sands and Wine Valley could be tied in.
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Isn't there another Macan in Tacoma? Spanaway or something like that?
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I was looking at Jeff's photos from Jordan's link...all I have to say is WOW:
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/1486648_712344792132524_603813581_n.jpg)
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Isn't there another Macan in Tacoma? Spanaway or something like that?
Lake Spanaway was built from Mac's plans after his death.
Mac operated more like a building architect, who drew up the plans, and then providing some supervision of a construction company in the building.
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Isn't there another Macan in Tacoma? Spanaway or something like that?
Lake Spanaway was built from Mac's plans after his death.
Mac operated more like a building architect, who drew up the plans, and then providing some supervision of a construction company in the building.
With a few exceptions like Tom Doak and his crew, and Mike Young, that has always been the model. Rod Whitman is another contractor who can build, he was on a D-4 or m-6 when we saw him at Cabot.
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Isn't there another Macan in Tacoma? Spanaway or something like that?
Lake Spanaway was built from Mac's plans after his death.
Mac operated more like a building architect, who drew up the plans, and then providing some supervision of a construction company in the building.
With a few exceptions like Tom Doak and his crew, and Mike Young, that has always been the model. Rod Whitman is another contractor who can build, he was on a D-4 or m-6 when we saw him at Cabot.
To be more clear. Mac used different local construction personnel or company for most every job in my understanding.
My distinction was to differentiate from MacDonald with Raynor on every job, and from as you indicate Pete Dye, Gil Hanse, David Kidd, Tom Doak, Mike Young, and probably many others that I don't know the modus operandi of.
I believe Art Hills works more like Mac, as I believe he hires out the construction of his courses from his plans instead of having his own personnel to do it. The advantage that Art has is the availability of a large golf course construction company that can be hired for many jobs in many locals, so that he can deal with the same company over and over again.
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Jordan,
I don't get to play there as much as I'd like. Maybe more soon.
Josh,
That's a very telling photograph. For all intents and purposes, AV Macan has been ignored for too long. Recently (last decade or so) Jeff Mingay has held the torch for memberships and the general public alike on Macan re-education. There's a nice video on Victoria Golf Club's website with Jeff in it taking about Mac.
Jim Urbina has told me a time or two "just let me take you to (insert Macan course) and it'll blow your mind."
Here's a couple of quotes attributed to Macan that should be the happy place for all GCA.com folks.
Golf was not conceived as a mechanical operation but rather full of fun and adventure. Many things could happen to the ball after it pitched on the green. The ill-happenings were not regarded as ill-fortune or ill-luck, but part of the adventure, and the more skilled found methods to overcome the risks of ill-fortune.
Speaking of Fircrest...
My idea was to design a golf course that while being a fine test of the game and calling for all the skill of the Hagen’s and Sarazen’s and the Barnes’ would at the same time provide a satisfactory test and full measure of enjoyment for the less skilled… yes, even for the dubs.
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Isn't there another Macan in Tacoma? Spanaway or something like that?
Lake Spanaway was built from Mac's plans after his death.
Mac operated more like a building architect, who drew up the plans, and then providing some supervision of a construction company in the building.
With a few exceptions like Tom Doak and his crew, and Mike Young, that has always been the model. Rod Whitman is another contractor who can build, he was on a D-4 or m-6 when we saw him at Cabot.
To be more clear. Mac used different local construction personnel or company for most every job in my understanding.
My distinction was to differentiate from MacDonald with Raynor on every job, and from as you indicate Pete Dye, Gil Hanse, David Kidd, Tom Doak, Mike Young, and probably many others that I don't know the modus operandi of.
I believe Art Hills works more like Mac, as I believe he hires out the construction of his courses from his plans instead of having his own personnel to do it. The advantage that Art has is the availability of a large golf course construction company that can be hired for many jobs in many locals, so that he can deal with the same company over and over again.
Garland, watch my lips. You single out Art Hills but that model is how 90% or more of golf courses are built. There are but a handful of design-build golf architects.
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Isn't there another Macan in Tacoma? Spanaway or something like that?
Lake Spanaway was built from Mac's plans after his death.
Mac operated more like a building architect, who drew up the plans, and then providing some supervision of a construction company in the building.
With a few exceptions like Tom Doak and his crew, and Mike Young, that has always been the model. Rod Whitman is another contractor who can build, he was on a D-4 or m-6 when we saw him at Cabot.
To be more clear. Mac used different local construction personnel or company for most every job in my understanding.
My distinction was to differentiate from MacDonald with Raynor on every job, and from as you indicate Pete Dye, Gil Hanse, David Kidd, Tom Doak, Mike Young, and probably many others that I don't know the modus operandi of.
I believe Art Hills works more like Mac, as I believe he hires out the construction of his courses from his plans instead of having his own personnel to do it. The advantage that Art has is the availability of a large golf course construction company that can be hired for many jobs in many locals, so that he can deal with the same company over and over again.
Garland, watch my lips. You single out Art Hills but that model is how 90% or more of golf courses are built. There are but a handful of design-build golf architects.
I guess that is why 90% or more of the golf courses don't reach the top of the rankings ;) like Fircrest should.
I can't imagine what possessed the Golfweek raters to drop it out of the top 200 this year.
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I can't imagine what possessed the Golfweek raters to drop it out of the top 200 this year.
I guess it means that it's just not very good. ::)
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I can't imagine what possessed the Golfweek raters to drop it out of the top 200 this year.
I guess it means that it's just not very good. ::)
Yes, I know they had to make room for all those strategic, cart path hidden, Fazio courses. ;D
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I can't imagine what possessed the Golfweek raters to drop it out of the top 200 this year.
I guess it means that it's just not very good. ::)
Yes, I know they had to make room for all those strategic, cart path hidden, Fazio courses. ;D
I would say you are changing the subject, but why bother?
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Sorry … I've been traveling a lot the past two weeks and missed Ben bringing this thread up.
We're just in the early, early stages of working on Fircrest. So there's nothing much to report. We did some subtle, experimental bunker work on the 13th hole (not the most exciting stuff out there, yet), removed sand build-up on the perimeter of that green and expanded the putting surface. The pattern of the fairway's also been adjusted, at 13. That's it, as far as physical work, for now.
However, I am in the process of starting a restorative-based Master Plan for the club. So, more soon … thanks for your interest. Again, Fircrest has some great potential that I'm very much looking forward to tapping …
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I can't imagine what possessed the Golfweek raters to drop it out of the top 200 this year.
I guess it means that it's just not very good. ::)
Yes, I know they had to make room for all those strategic, cart path hidden, Fazio courses. ;D
Lots of those Fazios on the GW Classic 200 lists.
I really hope they let Jeff do his thing. Fircrest could be something unbelievable if they do.
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Today I was fortunate to have a game at Fircrest, and like many of you I was greatly impressed. Macan is definitely underrated. Of his many NW courses I enjoyed Fircrest the most. The routing is strong - the green complexes exceptional. The turf is the best on which I have played in Washington. My host pointed our many areas where trees were removed. Unusual for a NW course, Fircrest is not over-treed. They are strategic on some holes. There is a nice open feel, along with forested and native areas. One member of our group was a tiger - routinely having flip wedges into par 4s. Even he barely broke 80. There is plenty of challenge. I highly recommend a game if the opportunity presents itself.
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Fircrest is a treat. Glad you enjoyed it, Brent.
As you probably noticed, we've restored bunkers at a handful of holes. We'll be back this fall/winter, too, doing the same .. slowly but surely it's a privilege to be lightly polishing what I believe is Mr. Macan's best golf course.
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Fircrest is a treat. Glad you enjoyed it, Brent.
As you probably noticed, we've restored bunkers at a handful of holes. We'll be back this fall/winter, too, doing the same .. slowly but surely it's a privilege to be lightly polishing what I believe is Mr. Macan's best golf course.
Jeff - well done. The bunkering is very nice. Please keep us updated.
Here is a picture of the 17th - the Volcano! Really fun.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/472/20233120715_9c07c467df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/wPW2ST)Fircrest #17 (https://flic.kr/p/wPW2ST) by Carlsson10 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/9464759@N08/), on Flickr
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Neat photo, thanks for posting!
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Jeff,
Do you think Fircrest is superior to Inglewood in terms of Macan's work? If so, why?
Steve
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Steve,
Fircrest and Inglewood are both really excellent pieces of golf architecture; specifically the routings. At Inglewood, Macan's routing makes remarkable use of a pretty severe property. Fircrest is also an excellent routing .. over a better property for golf, which I think makes it a slightly better course.
For me, it's all about the inherent site characteristics in this comparison.
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Jeff, where do you rank Columbia Edgewater in Macan's work?
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Bill,
Good question. It's been too long since I've visited Columbia-Edgewater, I need to get back there. As I understand though, Mr. Macan's original design's not very well preserved there. I think a lot of work has been done at Columbia-Edgewater since Macan's days, especially when compared to Fircrest, which is almost entirely intact. There are a number of original bunkers missing at Fircrest, but we're in the process of putting (most of) them back. Only two original greens (7 and 12) have been redone there, and my Master Plan has them being restored as well; hopefully sooner than later.
The original routing at Inglewood is intact, too. But at least 9 greens have been rebuilt by others over the years. And, of course, many of the original bunkers are gone too. We're working on that plan, and its approval currently, with work having recently been completed on holes 3 and 4.
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Jeff,
Your work at Holes 3 and 4 at Inglewood is exceptional, especially the fairway bunker on the left of #3 that encroaches into the line of play. A couple of other questions about Inglewood:
Is the routing original in the areas of holes 7, 8, and 9 where some groovy 60's-70's real estate encroaches very closely (especially the 7th)? I could envision an original routing without condos/townhomes having a larger practice ground, and the 9th hole along the Sammamish River/Slough. Is there any evidence of that?
You guess that maybe 1/2 of the greens have been altered at Inglewood - which do you think are original and which do you think have been altered?
Thanks,
Steve
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Steve,
Thanks for your complaint on our work at Inglewood. I'm very happy with the results as well; especially at #3. That's a neat little par 4 that I think we've made much more strategic with our recent work .. especially the green surface restoration/expansion, which has brought back a few neat fringe pins that really ask for tee shots to be played along the margins of that fairway.
The entire routing at Inglewood is original Macan (1919), with some assistance from Seattle Golf Club's head pro at the time, Bob Johnstone. The 9th hole was originally the eighteenth (the nines were reversed in the 1930s, I think it was .. a long time ago anyway). The Army Corp. of Engineers lowered the level of Lake Washington, back in the 1920s (or before), too. So the lake water used to be up much closer to the 9th fairway and green, at Inglewood. The development you mention, along the left side of the 9th hole these days, is built on some reclaimed land.
Imagine the ninth as the 18th hole ~ a lakeside hole, playing up to that beautiful clubhouse, as Inglewood's finish today? Gives me the chills, but unfortunately impossible to restore!
As for the greens: 1, 2, 13-16 and 18 have definitely been altered. I'm also suspicious of 9 and 10, though I'm not exactly sure what was done to those original greens over time, if anything. So 3-8 (I think) are original, along with 11, 12 and 17.