Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tim Nugent on April 10, 2012, 09:17:48 AM
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Reviewing a recent Photo Thread of a nice course, I was struck that it seemed that bunkers behind the greens were evident on more than half the holes (I didn't actually count).
What are your thoughts on these?
Do they effect the way you play a hole?
Are they just Eye Candy?
When was the last time you were in one or how often?
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Tim,
As a mid-handicapper I'm never in a rear bunker on an approach. Unless I skull my third that was left short of the green on my second.
I don't think they affect how people play the hole. I think they help all levels of players by providing some depth perception.
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I always liked deep rear bunkers because in my early years I hit a lot of pulled draws and they kept me from hitting it out of bounds. I don't like the visiable rear bunkers too much
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The rear bunkers that stick out in my memory seem to fall into 3 categories
1: Eye candy/Framing - generally useless but can be pretty
2: The "thank you Mr. Architect" bunker - as they save bad shots from becoming much worse
3: The "Norman miss" bunker - in that that's the place that you just can't miss as there is no up and down unless you hit the stick type of miss - usually a sucker type of shot as you chase a back pin - this is my favorite type as a lot of my strategic thinking involves figuring out where the areas are that I can't recover from
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Tim,
I started at least two threads on rear bunkers some time ago.
I think they're a really neat feature, probably more in vogue when fast and firm paved the way for the ground game.
# 16 at The Creek is one of my favorites in conjunction with the configuration of the putting surface.
Preakness Hills in NJ has an abundance of rear bunkers on at least 6 holes.
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I think a rear bunker with a back pin placement gets in my head more than a fronting bunker that I need to clear. I normally know how far I will fly a club so clearing a front bunker isn't a mental challenge. When a rear hole location is in front of a bunker I start to wonder how the ball will react on the green--will it stop or bounce twice and into the bunker. I find myself normally quite short of the pin in those situations. I like them.
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Rear bunkers are a ‘Get Out of Jail Card Free’ for the wayward player catching his ball when I would love to see it run and run. Their deployment behind a Green excuses skill allowing for less caution in the general approach shot, which I not what I believe golf is all about.
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The best rear bunker I have seen is the one behind the 5th(?) at Musselburgh Old. Small green with tiny back shelf atop a steep highish step.
The worst rear bunker is bhind the 18th at Kingsbarnes. Poor, out of character green rounded off with 'out of place' from which it is very difficult to hold the green.
Jon
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Interesting you attribute fast and firm to greater usage of rear bunkers.
Seems like I see far more usage on Fazio and particularly Norman courses versus say Tom Doak.
I actually like Doak's use of areas 20+ yards over the green as playable area and in some cases the place to miss. I want to say #5 at Bay of Dreams is a good example of this... short approach is punished while the golfer is invited to hiti it a bit long with a more than reasonable recovery opportunity.
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The last one I was in was on Canterbury's 8th hole. The hole location was back...I flew it a bit to far for the firm conditions...it took one big hop and found the bunker. D-E-A-D. A great penalty for not playing smart and staying below the hole.
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Rear bunkers are a ‘Get Out of Jail Card Free’ for the wayward player catching his ball when I would love to see it run and run.
Their deployment behind a Green excuses skill allowing for less caution in the general approach shot, which I not what I believe golf is all about.
Melvyn,
You've got it all wrong.
Rear bunkers, especially deep rear bunkers, on greens that slope from high back to low front, are anything but a "get out of jail free card"
When holes are cut to the back of the green, it's almost impossible to get the recovery anywhere near the hole.
I referenced # 16 at The Creek because that green has an upper plateau in the back, and when the hole is cut on that plateau, and you go long, you won't up and down it for par, since you'll be in a very deep bunker with the green running away from you.
The beauty of that configuration is that it puts tremendous pressure on getting the approach close to the hole without going over.
If you go over, you're dead and if you play it too safe, short, you have a very long two putt for your par.
It's a superior mental and physical feature.
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A thread on 'floating' back bunkers:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49134.html
Another past back bunker thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23196.html
Bunkers at the rear:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,985.html
MHM's view of protecting the back of a green with a bunker:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47554.html
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Reviewing a recent Photo Thread of a nice course, I was struck that it seemed that bunkers behind the greens were evident on more than half the holes (I didn't actually count).
What are your thoughts on these?
Do they effect the way you play a hole?
Are they just Eye Candy?
When was the last time you were in one or how often?
I think they can be used very well.
If I have 4 iron or more I worry about bunkers long. As mentioned in the threads referenced by Mark this usually occurs on shorter par 5's but also on longer par 3's and 4's (courses w/ firm greens change the 4 iron to an 8 iron).
I think most of the "floating bunkers" behind greens are eye candy. I do think some of these eye candy bunkers improve the aesthetics dramatically.
The last time I can remember being in a back bunker was 2 weeks ago at Pasatiempo. I was trying to decide between driver and 3-wood. I ended up going w/ 3-wood and left it short. I re-teed w/ driver (I was playing on my own with no one behind me and a 4-some a few holes in front of me) and ended up in the bunker left/long. I was much happier short than I would have been with the shot out of the bunker. I also ended up just right of the rear bunker on #10 to a back pin position (the bunker made my chip really difficult and I would have been much happier in the bunker).
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After going in the rear bunker at Garden City's fourth, I have a new found love for them. It is so deep and just where you don't wanna be. I loved the challenge of getting out of it. I also remember several at National that were deadly. And, as with Mr. Mucci, I don't think they are get out of jail free cards necessarily. Certainly not at Garden City's fourth!
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I am not overly enthusiastic about rear bunkers because archies should be using bunkers sparingly, but a couple on a course can be quite thought provoking. They work well with front to back greens and for small greens on reachable par 5s or short par 3s. Of course, sometimes they are good for safety if oob with the club or house in the line of fire. I will accept the odd bit of framing because archies just don't seem able to restrain themselves, but I don't care for it. The floating bunkers are the worst offenders of waste of space design though. Its very rare to see these done in any way which cause consternation. Usually, they look a like somebody dropped a load of sand by accident.
Ciao
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I'm not a fan of "floating" bunkers, at least the ones that I've seen. They rarely fit in and just look ineffective and out of place. If rear bunkers are close to the green, they can work well. Here's an example of one at the par three 9th at Dunfanaghy. It certainly makes its presence felt, as the safe shot here is to play just short and a bit right.
(http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz169/doceallaigh/Dunfanaghy/IMGP2647.jpg)
I think its a feature that should be used more, but not to the point of being overused.
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??? >:( ;)
Like anything else some back bunkers are quite good , others not so .
Most low handicap players wold rather be in a bunker than chipping , often downhill from behind greens. While more difficult than chipping for most higher handicaps, they can save a skulled ball from finding less verdant resting places (think OB , deep woods). So they are a mixed blessing for the less skilled player.
While its true that bunkers can "frame " a green visually, back bunkers flush to a green would not necessarily create this effect. They aren't always easy . Just think of the nasty pits behind #'s 10 & 17 at Pine Valley. Not only do they protect a tee or green , they protect par quite well also !
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Jim Urbina and our Super Brian just built a fantastic rear bunker on the 7th hole at Paramount. The green slopes severly from back to front so if the pin is cut back, it is almost impossible to get a shot close from that back bunker. The other interesting thing about the hole is it now plays just over 300 yards. So even for a shortest hitter it is a drive and a pitch. All the more reason to feel like you want to get the ball close and flirt with the back edge where the pin is often located. If you were approaching this hole with a longer shot, one might feel more content to play for the middle / lower portion of the green.
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As discussed elsewhere the back bunker on #2 at Kingsley is the preferred place to miss the deadly short par 3 as both right and particularly left are very difficult up and downs (personally I think it's the hardest hole on the course).
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I think they're a really neat feature, probably more in vogue when fast and firm paved the way for the ground game.
# 16 at The Creek is one of my favorites in conjunction with the configuration of the putting surface.
Here is a photo of The Creek #16 (with their Short in the background.) If you don't hit a very long drive off the tee, you can leave a very long approach, one that may roll out. Hit it too far, and you will be in the bunker hitting to a green that runs away, and then a STEEP slope fairway if you hit the bunker shot too long. This combo, IMO, is where back bunkers works the best, especially since this will effect your thought process while preparing for the second shot to the green.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/The%20Creek/DSCN0275-Copy.jpg)
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Mid Ocean in Bermuda has lots of small rear and side bunkers, which I always attributed to the course being built on a tight piece of land. The bunkers were eminently fair as they kept wayward shots from going totally out of play.
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Figured I would add pictures of the holes I referenced as holes I found myself in a rear bunker recently.
Pasatiempo, 3rd hole, par 3, 235 yards:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UldDl8m763I/T3o8NsERv4I/AAAAAAAABVk/U1zp_9dVDfc/s800/3b%2520just%2520off%2520tee.jpg)
Pasatiempo, 10th hole, par 4, 440 yards:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-99FZ_Re5VBo/T3o-ZsHwAcI/AAAAAAAABZU/nkIXguRW7VU/s800/10b%2520approach.jpg)
Also realized from the same trip I was in the rear bunker on the Half Moon Bay Ocean course, 18th hole, par 5, 533 yards. I don't have a picture showing the bunker as it's not visible when going for the green in 2. Here's the photo of the hole I do have.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yQPjkpBV4rU/T4XWbvRqpXI/AAAAAAAABuQ/XdXAMrGrkHs/s800/IMAG0905.jpg)
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I love rear bunkers although probably best to limit its use ... its a neat feature on the right hole. Its a nice change of pace from a nicely mown chipping area or just rough directly behind a putting surface.
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I think it really depends on the hole and green type.
On a typical classic courses in the north (that I typically play) with severely slopped back to front greens, anything back is dead anyway, so a back bunker really doesn't change the way an approach is framed.
However, on a modern course, with flatter, smaller greens, back bunker can be an effective tool to demand greater precision on an approach.
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I am a big fan of the rear bunker on number 6 at Old Mac. That little bunker has turned a few easy birdies on down wind days into pars.
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Thanks for the input. What I struggle with is the difficulty for the higher handicappers. It seems the ones most apt to find a rear bunker are also the ones that would find getting out of them the hardest. Granted the shape of the green, long vs wide has some bearing as well as shot in - low handicapper going for it in 2 vs a mandatory 3. I've found that I tend to perfer a grassy bunker or a depressed chipping area in most instances as I generally have moved away from containment mounding that my father prefered. Besides, CM seems to present it's own problems to high handicappers with a downhill lie to a green sloping away.
I guess I will reconsider a few Rear Bunkers just to provide interest and variety but the situation will have to be really call for it.
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Tim,
With containment mounding, there are also some issues of chems draining onto greens in bermuda surrounds/bent greens. My use of them is altered by that alone, plus as you say, getting tired of downhill lie chips from behind the green. Stopping a chip on a green falling away to the front is hard enough w/o having a downhill lie. Better a small swale and then a mound, if need be.
That said, one notable pro critiqued one of my back bunkers as too severe a downhill lie, saying it was a difficult shot for him. By that standard, the back bunkers would have to also be uphill shots, below the green, and thus blind on the approach, which I am generally loathe to do. Just seems like with the cost of bunkers, they ought to be seen!
Net, net, back bunkers for me are usually as cosmetic as anything, a relic of the old make it look harder than it plays by putting the same amount of bunkers in places unlikely to be found with golf shots, i.e., back left of the green.
So, what defines a "situation that really calls for it?"
I have a number of long par 4's with bunkers in back (and sides) of an across the LOP green, figuring, as you say, they test the long iron of the good player, who can still stop the long iron shot, but the handicap guy should have similar accuracy with third shot a wedge. I usually do these on prevailing up or downwind holes, not cross.
If the challenge is to make sure you take enough club (say uphill, into the wind) and the green front is open, then I feel the back bunkers create a little doubt about adding the extra club. Similar doubts might creep in downhill and downwind, too, encouraging the golfer to club to the front of the green, just to be sure they stay out of the bunker. Knowing that would leave a longer, but typically uphill put makes the "bail out" decision a bit tempting. In a prevailing crosswind, I don't see back bunkers having any similar effect.
At the same time, low handicappers, if you listen to Pelz, etc. have more distance control problems on short irons, so perhaps back bunkers make more sense for them on really, really short approaches, maybe the driveable par 4 or usually non reachable par 5?
For mid length holes, your scenario would kick in - good players always shooting at the flag with shorter clubs than the average guy, and probably being affected less.
Just my theoretical take. Of course, you start looking at what the land gives, the balance of the course, etc.
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The rear bunkers that stick out in my memory seem to fall into 3 categories
1: Eye candy/Framing - generally useless but can be pretty
2: The "thank you Mr. Architect" bunker - as they save bad shots from becoming much worse
3: The "Norman miss" bunker - in that that's the place that you just can't miss as there is no up and down unless you hit the stick type of miss - usually a sucker type of shot as you chase a back pin - this is my favorite type as a lot of my strategic thinking involves figuring out where the areas are that I can't recover from
Rear bunkers I like (Option #3 above):
#2 at Olympic-Lake
# 12 at Seminole
Both are basically "hidden" i.e. not really so prominent to be seen as one approaches the green. I guess at Olympic, the bunker on the rear left is somewhat visible, but doesn't "frame" the hole, but the one of the rear right seems to get more action.
The rear bunker at Seminole #12 certainly comes into play when the pin is in the back of the green and the wind is off the ocean into your face. Just try to get your shot back to that pin... i dare you.
Rear bunker I don't like (Option #1 above):
#8 at Olympic-Lake
Like much about this new hole, my feeling is this bunker is just out of place. It's completely visible from the multiple elevated tees and really has become the only rear bunker on the entire course (save part of the right-rear one on #2) that frames the green so much. Not that that's necessarily bad... it just doesn't mesh with the rest of the holes on the course.