Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mac Plumart on March 19, 2012, 08:54:46 PM
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My friend says they are over-rated. I like'em.
Discuss.
Anthony
:)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/WexfordX.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Baltusrol13IV.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/heavenshalfacreII.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Musselburgh4-1.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/TOC14Hell.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/dr2.png)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/RockCreek1.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Pinehurst49ii.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/ShadowCreek2.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/AikenMarkslie.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Aiken6.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/TobaccoRoad11.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/HarbourTown13II.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/mehittingabunkershotatcheschessee.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/pinebarrens15II.jpg)
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Most bunkers are too well-manicured and shallow and thus provide a respite from a potential bad lie in rough. They are too easy for the skilled player.
Other bunkers are too deep and penal and the average golfer cannot get out of it and simply results in the player picking up.
Ergo, bunkers, all bunkers, are bad. ;D
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People may speculate that they've been neutered by expected maintenance practices but they still dictate planning when you encounter one...that said, throw away the rakes, expect people to smooth their footprints some and get after it...
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I think they make great decoration. Great discussion.
Anthony
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Were meant to be hazards but TV has contaminated Average member Joe´s brain and therefore he bitches like hell if he doesn´t have a perfect TV lie and perfect consistent - dry sand throughout his golfing experience. Heavens to forbid, if Joe gets a fried egg from local sand. Club will increase dues and import sand from 300 miles to correct that problem. We need to get back to the basics, use whatever sand is readily avaiable and a greenchairmen with the balls to answer to the crying membership, "It´s a freaking hazard, what did you expect"? Amen!
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I won't complain as long as there is at least a little sand in the bunker. Last summer while at Bandon my friend and I were both in the bunker left of the green on the 13th at Trails. There wasn't a grain of sand around our balls; it was bare hard pan. A tough shot with sand became impossible.
Just my .02
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Bunkers are great in both creating visual interest and playing options/demands. But, bunkering is far over-used at the cost of many other cool features which do the same thing, At best this approach is misguided, at worst it is lazy architecture. Archies should be looking for ways to place one or two knockout bunkers instead of seas of sand. Its more efficient design and often times more thought provoking. I can live in hope.
Mac - proper bunkers. Unlike the 100 a course style, this bunker cannot be ignored.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/WOKING/29Dec2008171.jpg?t=1240995991)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/NEW%20ZEALAND/31May2011011.jpg?t=1306742907)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/NEW%20ZEALAND/100_4353.jpg?t=1242467399)
Bunkers can also tandem well with what was given to the archie. Its simple, elegant and above all thinking man's golf.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/WOKING/29Dec2008174.jpg?t=1242047782)
Ciao
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Bunkers are great in both creating visual interest and playing options/demands.
But, bunkering is far over-used at the cost of many other cool features which do the same thing,
Sean,
Completely agree with your first sentence, it is not just about what is in the bunker, as that should not be any golfers aim( apart from the ridiculous situation of a PGA Tour Player yelling "get in the bunker"), to hit their shot into a bunker. For me, a bunker first and foremost prerequisite is on the tee or fairway, preparing to hit your shot, to make the golfer question himself, his shot choice, and provide some doubt and some challenge in getting himself into the best possible position to make his next shot. The condition, look and style, should always be secondary to the initial function asked on the tee, or on the approach, etc
To your second sentence, I am sure that many courses are over bunkered, and over water hazard-ed for that matter, add over watered as well! :) - what I would like like to see you expand on is the "many other cool features which do the same thing" - can you give some examples of this Sean, in particular, cool features that are clear and obvious from the tee or approach shot, can assume you are not referring to hidden fairway wee burns and the like.
Cheers
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Mac, I love them.
I understand the notion of minimal bunkers, but I really do like a well positioned, well shaped bunker, it will always have beautiful scale, and jus took as though it was meant to be there.
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For what it's worth, here are a couple of antiquarian takes on the subject:
"Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored" - John Low Concerning Golf - 1903
Tillinghast was good enough to give us his viewpoint in his essay "Sans Sand Pits".
"An inspection of the ground, rolling country dotted with bunches of mesquite and ouisache scrub growth, revealed the fact that judicious use of natural contours of terrain and encroachments of native growths could produce a truly interesting course."
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1933/ag364o.pdf (http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1933/ag364o.pdf)
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Bunkers are great in both creating visual interest and playing options/demands.
But, bunkering is far over-used at the cost of many other cool features which do the same thing,
Sean,
Completely agree with your first sentence, it is not just about what is in the bunker, as that should not be any golfers aim( apart from the ridiculous situation of a PGA Tour Player yelling "get in the bunker"), to hit their shot into a bunker. For me, a bunker first and foremost prerequisite is on the tee or fairway, preparing to hit your shot, to make the golfer question himself, his shot choice, and provide some doubt and some challenge in getting himself into the best possible position to make his next shot. The condition, look and style, should always be secondary to the initial function asked on the tee, or on the approach, etc
To your second sentence, I am sure that many courses are over bunkered, and over water hazard-ed for that matter, add over watered as well! :) - what I would like like to see you expand on is the "many other cool features which do the same thing" - can you give some examples of this Sean, in particular, cool features that are clear and obvious from the tee or approach shot, can assume you are not referring to hidden fairway wee burns and the like.
Cheers
Brent
A ditch running the length of the fairway and in the fairway - very unusual.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Saunton/P8150407.jpg)
A small hill cutting off the low cut tee shot - quite a cool way to require a shot type.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Saunton/P8150433.jpg)
Set the tee at an awkward angle to the fairway - very simple oh so rare.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20PORTRUSH%20DUNLUCE/23June2009098.jpg?t=1245759909)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20PORTRUSH%20DUNLUCE/23June2009109.jpg?t=1245761198)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PORTSTEWART/23June2009198.jpg?t=1245918817)
Dead ground - classic tactic! But I admit it requires a less than full view of the field ahead. But then, I never said a cool feature couldn't be blind.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20PORTRUSH%20DUNLUCE/23June2009104.jpg?t=1245760749)
Just squeeze the landing zone with a less than ideal lie/angle.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PORTSTEWART/23June2009183.jpg?t=1245916962)
Squeeze the area ahead of the landing zone to make the golfer gain the correct side of the fairway to take advantage of wind.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PORTSTEWART/23June2009190.jpg?t=1245917596)
A ditch - good stuff.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROSSES%20POINT/100_3862.jpg?t=1242725888)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SUTTON%20COLDFIELD%20GC/040.jpg)
Slide the green around a corner making the outside of the leg the place to be - of course rough or whatever can guard that side.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ENNISCRONE/100_3946.jpg?t=1242653031)
How bout mounding?
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SAUNTON%20GC%20East%20Course/024.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HUNTERCOMBE/16August2009226.jpg?t=1267319134)
Natural vegetation.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SAUNTON%20GC%20East%20Course/038.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SUTTON%20COLDFIELD%20GC/002.jpg)
Just end the fairway.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Berkhampsted%20GC/002.jpg?t=1323333986)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Berkhampsted%20GC/029.jpg?t=1323334211)
Use the natural terrain well.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Cleeve%20Hill%20GC/015.jpg?t=1317403549)
How bout hollows?
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HUNTERCOMBE/003-1.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HUNTERCOMBE/007-1.jpg)
I don't know what this is called.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HUNTERCOMBE/21September2009199.jpg?t=1267318627)
I think you get the idea.
Ciao
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Indeed, I get the idea. Great stuff!!
Thanks for starting this thread Anthony.
;)
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this is a bunker:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/o9o414.jpg)
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Sean, a superb collection of pics, thanks for posting them.
When you referred to over us of a bunker, that seems to mostly occur on crap land, sometimes devoid of decent natural features. I had no idea you were going to put up all that spectacular ground, I did think you might put up those drainage trenches from Swinley Forest....?
My favourite from those would be the scratchy, rough ground that squeezes the fairway, looks like it is 'mowed' by the local sheep or goats, find you ball, half shot penalty from rough ground, interesting and always unique and by their by nature must fit the ground and ties in beautifully.
Thanks.
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Indeed, I get the idea. Great stuff!!
Thanks for starting this thread Anthony.
;)
Thanks Mac. I think its some of my best work. I'm working on a new fish bar thread that will go at least 3 pages. my goal is 4 new threads a week until the 5th major. I hope Kentucky wins the NCAA.
Anthony
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Great tour de force, Sean. I know there are some very good courses in that bunch Mac posted to start this thread, but the use of limited but very high impact bunkers and all the other hazards at New Zealand and Huntercombe really make me want to revisit those fine courses. And I'd really like to see Berkhamstead some day!
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How deep is too deep?
Should this be a new thread?
Mac
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(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/393054_370215353008952_194273623936460_1215938_1442942025_n.jpg)
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Anthony
How deep is too deep?
Simple too deep is when you get an echo otherwise no problem don't worry. Or The Road Hole Bunker is shallowish and should not defined as deep, ditto Hell Bunker.
Melvyn
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(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/393054_370215353008952_194273623936460_1215938_1442942025_n.jpg)
I've always wondered if any of that sand was natural.
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What a wasted opportunity to come up something very cool. The second pic is practically the very definition of archie overkill - what a shame.
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/393054_370215353008952_194273623936460_1215938_1442942025_n.jpg)
Ace
When you are coming over you know I am your man for reasonably priced golf on out of the box courses. Give me a shout.
Ciao
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this is a bunker:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/o9o414.jpg)
Is this Old Mac?
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yup. #10.
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What a wasted opportunity to come up something very cool. The second pic is practically the very definition of archie overkill - what a shame.
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/393054_370215353008952_194273623936460_1215938_1442942025_n.jpg)
Ace
When you are coming over you know I am your man for reasonably priced golf on out of the box courses. Give me a shout.
Ciao
Without a doubt!
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Sean,
What a fantastic post that was for #10.
I take back everything I said in the Bandon vs UK thread....where do I sign up to come over and play that kind of awesome stuff!! :)
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Sean
Absolutely fantastic collection of photos - it reminds me why so often simple is so pleasing on the eye.
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I think bunkers make great eye candy.
Anthony
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Sean,
I think you should start a new thread called "Great Cool Features I (you) have seen"
For me, these features are what distinguishes a great property from an average one, and in the hands of the right person(s) a great course from an average one or also ran.
This is the land's natural quirk and uniqueness.
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For me, these features are what distinguishes a great property from an average one, and in the hands of the right person(s) a great course from an average one or also ran.
This is the land's natural quirk and uniqueness.
Yes, sir!
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Sean,
What a fantastic post that was for #10.
I take back everything I said in the Bandon vs UK thread....where do I sign up to come over and play that kind of awesome stuff!! :)
Kalen,
With Sean,
you could play 50 courses your friends had never heard of, and 20 you've never heard of, and the thought "second tier" would never enter your mind. (until you paid the greens fee ;D)
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Sean,
I think you should start a new thread called "Great Cool Features I (you) have seen"
For me, these features are what distinguishes a great property from an average one, and in the hands of the right person(s) a great course from an average one or also ran.
This is the land's natural quirk and uniqueness.
Brett
And I resisted using pics of Pennard and Perranporth!
The thing is, if the land doesn't afford cool features, why shouldn't the archie build them? He is willing to build bunkers, why not diversify and be a bit creative? This is where Strantz had it well over his competitors - bravery! The Streamsong project has me very excited because it is my understanding Doak and C&C didn't mess too much with the unnatural shapes and features of an old quarry of some sort. I know I have said many times I would like to see an archie dynamite the hell out of a flatish site then lay a course on it - well this seems like the next best thing.
Kalen
Cool golf is all over the place. Did you see that thread on St Georges (NY?) - very cool stuff.
Ciao
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Sean,
I think many GCA's would have trouble replicating the hollows and some of those wild bumps AND make them look as though they were always there. I would guess it is 'easier' to build a bunker, than to build a craggy old hollow on the corner of a dogleg or to squeeze up a bottleneck.
Are we getting off Topice here Mac ?
If not - then I want to see more of Sean's pics - they remind of all the things right in this world of golf.
Bunkers are a hazard, water is a hazard, are these 'cool' features above actually hazards?
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Brett
Some of what I showed is totally man-made. Sure, in nearly all cases time had a way of melding the features to the landscape, but I don't think it takes much time to do this. In any case, I am not so bothered about features which blend with the terrain. I am far more concerned with diverse features influencing play. I used to be into naturalism and I still am, but that is now very much a secondary issue for me. I can look at Raynor holes and see a completely constructed (and imo with little care to fitting into the landscape) set-up, but what I am looking for first is varied and compelling golf. There is no question Raynor was able to deliver the goods even if he wasn't terribly artistic or daring. He at least was smart enough to know that he didn't have to re-invent the wheel everytime out and to stick to what works. I know, I am arguing for a guy who didn't really think outside the box (and I want archies to do just that), it is just a chance of history that his courses visually stand out compared to his contemporaries and even archies decades after his death. The point is, his manufactured look has a beauty of its own for those interested in hitting shots. I think the same holds true for using other forms of "hazards" instead of bunkers. So to answer your question, by the rules, my suggestions are not hazards, but in the spirit and history of the game for sure my suggestions are very much hazards.
Some features have been downplayed so long by archies that for many golfers they are now considered unfair. Examples would include reverse camber doglegs, blind shots and retreating greens. These are very basic tools of the trade which when not employed cause archies to seek out other ways to create interest and so often all they can come up with is sand or water. As I said earlier, only Strantz really attacked the issue head on with any semblance of a nod to naturalism and his work is very polarizing. So I am not suggesting that thinking outside the box is easy pickins for archies, but at the same time I expect at least some leading archies to lead the field of gca rather than build by conducting polls.
Here is a cool set-up for the approach - stolen from another thread. Imagine this hole with only the tree closets to the fairway - combined with the sloping green and hollows protecting the right - this is very interesting indeed.
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n576/a_rytter/IMG_2166.jpg)
Ciao
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Are we getting off Topice here Mac ?
NO!!
I said in the opening post my friend thought bunkers were over-rated. Now I see why.
:)
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At long last, a Treedan!
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n576/a_rytter/IMG_2166.jpg)
Mike
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At long last, a Treedan!
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n576/a_rytter/IMG_2166.jpg)
Mike
Now that is FUNNY!!
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Sean,
What a fantastic post that was for #10.
I take back everything I said in the Bandon vs UK thread....where do I sign up to come over and play that kind of awesome stuff!! :)
Kalen,
With Sean,
you could play 50 courses your friends had never heard of, and 20 you've never heard of, and the thought "second tier" would never enter your mind. (until you paid the greens fee ;D)
Jeff,
After seeing those, I happily stick my tail between my legs and wimper off.
I've seen what I would consider quirk here in the states...but it doesn't seem to be the same kind of quirk you find on those UK courses. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it just seems different....in a very good way!
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this is a bunker:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/o9o414.jpg)
Funny, looks like GUR to me.
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this is a bunker:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/o9o414.jpg)
Funny, looks like GUR to me.
Yes, definite rabbit scrape I'd say ;D