Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mark Saltzman on March 13, 2012, 02:46:48 PM
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http://www.golfvacationinsider.com/mexico-golf-vacations/tiger-woods-golf-course-cabo-mexico-7968
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Wonder if this one will actually get finished.
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I had been told when I was on site last year that Phil Mickelson was going to do the second course on the east part of the property. .....Paging Greg Tallman, we need verification on this!
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I don't recall how much more oceanfront land the development owns, but it will be interesting to see if Tiger (assuming this report is accurate) gets any oceanfront real estate and if so, how much. The picture with the red arrow is quite a ways from the ocean I believe (that is the first hole at the original course).
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Heard he is doing it so he can get his steroids on the cheap....
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Golf Magazine is saying this is a false report. I'll agree with them until further notified.
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I had been told when I was on site last year that Phil Mickelson was going to do the second course on the east part of the property. .....Paging Greg Tallman, we need verification on this!
Mickelson is out. The second course at Diamante is not the course Phil was originally supposed to do anyway. With the success of their timeshare/fractional product tied to the Dunes Course the developer had an opportunity to move forward with another product that in most previous materials was labled "future development".
The first leaks were that Paul Cowley would get the course under his own name and be a big part of the entire "Resort at Diamante" offering that will have a spearate entrance from the "community" entrance and only a handful of timeshare owners (i.e. those that bought early into the "resort") will have access to the Dunes Course. Then came word from a third party that perhaps a bigger splash, in the form of a "marketing name", was being sought
I can assure you that the source for the linked article is in the timeshare sales part of the equation and has absolutely no authority to release such information. Played Diamante with their top marketing guy on Saturday and mum's the word on who will do the second course though it will start sometime this year more than likely. Look for an official and far more credible announcement in about 14 to 28 days.
Not saying the announcement will contain different information...
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Golf Magazine is saying this is a false report. I'll agree with them until further notified.
Ever watch Lee Corso on College Gameday on ESPN?
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I don't recall how much more oceanfront land the development owns, but it will be interesting to see if Tiger (assuming this report is accurate) gets any oceanfront real estate and if so, how much. The picture with the red arrow is quite a ways from the ocean I believe (that is the first hole at the original course).
None of the land is oceanfront. The look and feel of the course, regardless of architect, will be as though it was in a different world from the Dunes Course which is not all bad.
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Carts or Limping Only?
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Golf Magazine is saying this is a false report. I'll agree with them until further notified.
Ever watch Lee Corso on College Gameday on ESPN?
You mean this guy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M35SPhRD0Iw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M35SPhRD0Iw)
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Carts or Limping Only?
Despite our differences Terry, very funny ;D ;D ;D
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Is there a Perkins at the turn?
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Heard he is doing it so he can get his steroids on the cheap....
And lap dances?
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I heard you'll get a free HGH injection with each green fee!!
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Tough crowd and for the record from one of the principals...
We are not sure how that got out, be we don’t have an agreement with a designer for the second course at this time
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Without official word from the developer... Tiger will in fact be doing the second course at Diamante and perhaps more. He was in town today and his business guys are in for the rest of the week.
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Maybe they'll name the holes after mistresses
Hole 8 - Joslyn James - hit it between the mounds...
Hole 12 - Mindy Lawton - flat as a pancake...waitress...
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Undoubtedly a cheap pick up for the developer. Probably less than phil at this point?
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Undoubtedly a cheap pick up for the developer. Probably less than phil at this point?
::)
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Aside from Tiger, this affects a pretty cool cat that I met at the GIS. Beau Welling is(?) Tiger's lead designer and is also an avid curler. In fact, he is the president of the Palmetto Curling Club (yes, a curling club in South Carolina). I think Beau has worked with Fazio in years past. He was one of the nicest people I met at the show, and was genuine in his invite to come up and "skip a few rocks."
I hope they get the work.
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Tough crowd and for the record from one of the principals...
We are not sure how that got out, be we don’t have an agreement with a designer for the second course at this time
Golf Odyssey (David Baum) first broke this story a few months back.
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This is going to be interesting to see what they do, particularly as it's the first course under his name and they have to try to hold their own against a celebrated layout on a less dramatic piece of property. On a side note, Palmetto and Curling are a combo that sounds pretty damn good good to me, Like Great Lake Pizza and a boutique Syrah...
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Undoubtedly a cheap pick up for the developer. Probably less than phil at this point?
That asumption would be WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY off the mark. I highly doubt exact terms are made public but the deal has many levels of participation for Tiger and his team.
When you think about the reality as Jud touches on I really think Tiger was just about the only name that could generate any real buzz with this new course. It is not a piece of land that the "it" guys, Doak, C&C, Hanse would even consider and what other name could create excitement for what might well be a rather pedestrian resort course?
I do not mean to say the land is terrible, it is not, but it does not compare to that which Paul and Davis had to work with in the dunes or the land Jack and even Weskopf had at Cabo del Sol.
I am sure Tiger (Beau Welling) will create a very attractive and well received course that will continue the amazing succes story that is Diamante. One has to commend that team for battling through and beating some pretty long odds in simply getting the first course done and then having any measure of success in their real estate/timeshare product in this market.
If it's good for Cabo it's good for all of us... perhaps a site tour during the Tequila Cup????
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Maybe they'll name the holes after mistresses
Hole 8 - Joslyn James - hit it between the mounds...
Hole 12 - Mindy Lawton - flat as a pancake...waitress...
My favorite line from the scandal: While in Australia, Tiger Woods reportedly explored the Uchitel Peninsula.
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I don´t get it! Why would the developer switch architects after having so much success with the first development. I would like to hear what Paul has to say about this. I can understand spending extra money to create excitement for a new development and being tempted to go the signature route. But the snowball is formed and rolling downhill for this development and has an established International marketing name, which Paul and Davis were factors by creating a great course and at a reasonable price, I would imagine a good price, anyways. Tiger´s past design fee´s have not been lower then fifteen million and has no proven record. I imagine he had to lower these fee´s with his current market perception but even he lowered to something still ridiculous as two million (which I am sure the actual price is somewhat higher) for a developments second course that already is a destination. Sorry, but I cannot label this as, Good for Golf! I would be more inclined to label it as, "more of the same crap that factors largely into the current world wide golf crisis equation".
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I don´t get it! Why would the developer switch architects after having so much success with the first development. I would like to hear what Paul has to say about this. I can understand spending extra money to create excitement for a new development and being tempted to go the signature route. But the snowball is formed and rolling downhill for this development and has an established International marketing name, which Paul and Davis were factors by creating a great course and at a reasonable price, I would imagine a good price, anyways. Tiger´s past design fee´s have not been lower then fifteen million and has no proven record. I imagine he had to lower these fee´s with his current market perception but even he lowered to something still ridiculous as two million (which I am sure the actual price is somewhat higher) for a developments second course that already is a destination. Sorry, but I cannot label this as, Good for Golf! I would be more inclined to label it as, "more of the same crap that factors largely into the current world wide golf crisis equation".
Randy,
The Dunes Course is "private"... off limits to all but those purchasing real estate from here forward save a few fractional home interests still available. Any future course and surrounding lodging/timeshare product must stand on its own.
I have little doubt Paul Cowley would have produced the best product for the money, sorry make that no doubt. In this market the sad fact is you need something to get the attention of the masses and "come see our great course you cannot play" does not work. Given the land in question I do not see any other name that even remotely "moves the needle".
Do those of us who understand the contributions of the Paul Cowleys, Kurt Bowmans and Jim Lipes of the world like to see someone lose out on a chance to make a bit of a name for themselves outside our geekish little circle? Of course not but looking at the business and the times within which we live I certainly understand the decision.
And I am not sure how clsoe you are on Tiger's "fee"... I would bet the vast majority of his take is "on the come" which says even more about the times.
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Greg,
You make some good valid points and if the new development is stand alone, then the scenario it a little more logical. However, I feel you weigh a little too much on the sites weakness or short comings. More reason to have an experienced and proven team. The olympic site is weak but I have no doubt GH will turn it into a piece of art and a great golfing experience. I would want that first and farmost for my golf course and then I would look for an experienced professional marketing team to attract and secure my targeted market. Instead, they have choosen the marketing gimmick road and with a signature professional that has a damaged market perception, just look at some of the replies on here. I think a lot will boil down to how experienced and qualified the person team Tiger puts on site throughout the construction phase. I would hate to have all my money riding on team Tiger moving the needle without an exceptional final product that maximizies the properties potential.
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Randy,
You certainly make a good point and I feel for Paul in this situation, particularly as they produced an excellent course on site, nevertheless a couple of points:
1. DL III was never associated with the other course as far as I know. Mickelson was being marketed as the guy to potential time-share clients. If anyone should be pissed it's Phil's team.
2. If Tiger's management team uses their heads for something other than hat racks they surely realize that they need to produce a great product and build his design brand on more than simply his name, as Jack did. They also should know that if this ends up being the first course built under his name the scrutiny will be quite high so they better deliver the goods.
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Jud,
As you can probably tell I am just a little-Anti Signature, I put Phil in the same boat as Tiger. It just drives up cost and less money could be spent with an experienced marketing team and potentially have the same results. Its a big risk from my point of view, a signature with so many perception problems at the moment and an unproven team. Do you think Tiger is hungry and really needs to create a sucessful design business. I think he wants to dabble and give it a shot but he is also accustomed to earning," easy money". To me, it is much easier wearing a shirt or a logo cap and earn ten million dollars. If he finds it is more trouble than it is worth, he will look for other adventures that produce more and require less.
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Randy,
You certainly make a good point and I feel for Paul in this situation, particularly as they produced an excellent course on site, nevertheless a couple of points:
1. DL III was never associated with the other course as far as I know. Mickelson was being marketed as the guy to potential time-share clients. If anyone should be pissed it's Phil's team.
2. If Tiger's management team uses their heads for something other than hat racks they surely realize that they need to produce a great product and build his design brand on more than simply his name, as Jack did. They also should know that if this ends up being the first course built under his name the scrutiny will be quite high so they better deliver the goods.
As previously noted this is NOT the course Mickelson was on baord to design. They still have plans for their "Shadow Creek" design in the back corner of the property. The course being fast tracked was only listed as "future development" on all previous plans and as things evolved with their timeshare success the resort within a resort concept was born (and financed). That said it is all but certain that Mickelson will not do the other private course either.
What would Bandon be if Kiser fell in love with Kidd and let him do what is now Pacific Dunes?
Should be interesting to watch as I am sure the purse strings are not as loose as Tiger and his team would like and thus they will have to do more with less... not that easy unless you are very talented. All in all for a development still trying to climb out from under a mountain of debt it makes sense. Agree that it sucks for paul and the product will likely be lesser for the decision but the bottom line healthier given the business model and clientele.
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Greg,
You make some good valid points and if the new development is stand alone, then the scenario it a little more logical. However, I feel you weigh a little too much on the sites weakness or short comings. More reason to have an experienced and proven team. The olympic site is weak but I have no doubt GH will turn it into a piece of art and a great golfing experience. I would want that first and farmost for my golf course and then I would look for an experienced professional marketing team to attract and secure my targeted market. Instead, they have choosen the marketing gimmick road and with a signature professional that has a damaged market perception, just look at some of the replies on here. I think a lot will boil down to how experienced and qualified the person team Tiger puts on site throughout the construction phase. I would hate to have all my money riding on team Tiger moving the needle without an exceptional final product that maximizies the properties potential.
Randy, Nobody moves the golf needle like Tiger Woods. Nobody. Getting his first course in the ground and open is a coup. Can we pick him apart as a person and "designer"? Of course, pretty low hanging fruit there but the timeshare crowd to whom they will be marketing will eat it up like a cheap taco from the vendor outside Cabo Wabo at 2:00am.
I would also highly doubt Tom, C&C or Hanse would have taken the gig. Why put such a reputation on the line when there is no chance to create something as good as the course already in the ground? Wonderful thing about being at the top of your profession... you get the pick of the litter and can turn down what many would kill to have.
Maybe a miracle will occur and Paul will be asked to be the on site guy for Tiger. Win, win, win.
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What would Bandon be if Kiser´s second course he hired a new X Signature architect at X millions of dollars instead of hiring non signature architect with proven records that devote time on site instead of delegating to less experieinced personnel, as is the normal scenario with these signature designs??
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OK I'm an idiot, but that's not news to anyone here. If I had to guess, and that's all we can do in this instance, I'd guess that Tiger's competitiveness is such that he has ambitions of chasing Jack in the signature business as well as in Majors. I agree with you in principal Randy but as Greg alluded to this is a pretty pricey high-end real estate property in a difficult time that will pull out all the stops to pay the piper.
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Jud,
Your not an idiot, we are having a healthy discussion. I respect your opinion. So basically, Tiger competiveness nature and big Ego will be at the base of creating a successful design firm. Might work, who knows,,,we will just have to sit back and watch. One thing is clear, I have been out spoken over the years and I have been wrong more times than I have been right.
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I meant in regards to my contention that Mickelson was designing the course, not your comments.
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What would Bandon be if Kiser´s second course he hired a new X Signature architect at X millions of dollars instead of hiring non signature architect with proven records that devote time on site instead of delegating to less experieinced personnel, as is the normal scenario with these signature designs??
I was commenting on your assertion that staying with the proven entity was the best route.
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I meant in regards to my contention that Mickelson was designing the course, not your comments.
Uff..now I feel like one too! The good thing is I doubt were alone, could be a good new topic, how many idiots are there on this site out of 1300 members!
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Randy,
I wouldn't say that Tiger's team is unproven. Beau Welling (if indeed he is Tiger's lead man on this course) is far from that.
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Randy,
I wouldn't say that Tiger's team is unproven. Beau Welling (if indeed he is Tiger's lead man on this course) is far from that.
Ben, What are Beau's design credentials? It is my understanding he was more in the business side that the design side for Fazio.
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Interesting website:
http://www.beauwellingdesign.com/
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Interesting website:
http://www.beauwellingdesign.com/
Pretty interesting, well educated team.
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Update from Eamon Lynch:
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/tiger-woods-building-golf-course-cabo-san-lucas-mexico-diamante
Can we get Tiger a GCA log-in?
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"I want to make it an enjoyable and memorable experience for all players, regardless of skill level," Woods wrote. "I've played in enough pro-ams to know that not every golfer is a scratch player. Creating wide landing areas and avoiding forced carries whenever possible allow all golfers, even beginners, to keep the ball in play and have more fun."
I can think of worse mantras for first time GCA's, and for some veteran ones for that matter...
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http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/tiger-woods-new-golf-course-cabo-san-lucas-mexico-routing#
Here is the routing.
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Jud, I can't think of anything Tiger's ever said that makes me think he would be a poor course designer. Obviously that doesn't guarantee that he'll be good either, but there's no reason to think he'd be bad. I mean, The Old Course is his favorite track and The Open is his favorite tournament, which puts him relatively in alignment with about 60% of the architecture buffs on this forum according to a survey I made up for purposes of this post.
Then again, the philosophy you quoted him on is essentially the same philosophy Fuzzy Zoeller has claimed to follow, so there's that...
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It looks like Tiger likes the angle/distance trade-off.
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Beau and their crew will do a good job.
This has very little to do with the golf.
The site is constrained.
The holes are fine.
It won't be as good as Cowley's course.
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the routing looks surprisingly good. how that translates to the dirt will be the question.
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Appears the first tee is part of the practice range. Warm-up, walk over and off you go. Or will that be a distraciton?
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It won't be as good as Cowley's course.
Mike,
That's a pretty high bar for any course. Diamante is currently ranked #58 in the World according to Golf Magazine and has the premier site on the ocean among huge dunes. If it turns out to be a good course that is a nice complement to Paul's course, gets a lot of member play and isn't seen as an afterthought that will be a success IMO. Gotta think Tiger has a lot riding on it, at least as far as his rep in the GCA world is concerned, so I'd assume they won't be cutting any corners on this project.
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Worst routing ever. First hole par 5 second par 3 followed by a driveable par 4 may be the slow play king of all sequences. Reminds me of the disaster at Cuscowilla.
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One person saying the routing looks good, one saying it's the worst ever...
Personally I don't like that 6-8 and 10-14 track back and forward but that isn't enough for me to say it's a bad routing... Neither is the 2nd as par-3...
Amazing that people decide to call good vs bad off a masterplan... It's hard enough when you know the built course really well without knowing the restraints / brief...
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Worst routing ever.
Pretty strong comment by just looking at a piece of paper.
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Worst routing ever.
Pretty strong comment by just looking at a piece of paper.
Stu,
If you know of a worse choice for a start of a course than short par 5, long par 3 please let me know. If that is not bad enough they choose a water logged driveable par 4 as the third. Worst routing of all time.
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Worst routing ever.
Pretty strong comment by just looking at a piece of paper.
Stu,
If you know of a worse choice for a start of a course than short par 5, long par 3 please let me know. If that is not bad enough they choose a water logged driveable par 4 as the third. Worst routing of all time.
Certainly makes sense, but will there be enough traffic on the golf course to make this a huge problem?
I played in a qualifier at Treyburn CC in Durham, N.C., whose second hole is a 245 yard par 3 that the setup gurus shortened to about 170 for the reason of pace of play. When I arrived on the tee, there were still three other groups there.
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For whatever reason a par 5 before a par 3 accentuates the problem. As it is, Cuscowilla has this situation on the 2nd and 3rd holes. I've never waited as long in my life as on the third tee at Cusc.
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John,
Won't this be a fairly private members course? If that's the case, I can't imagine it will be receiving as much play as Cuscowilla which should help alleviate some of those problems.
The back and forth nature does seem a little repetitive but for an overall concept there is certainly a lot to like.
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How does one judge the quality of a routing by looking at a 2D graphic?
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What's to like? I've never seen anything like the walk from 17 green to 18 tee. Who wants to be putting on 10 and have to listen to clicking irons as people walk past the green. I would guess carts would be rerouted. It almost looks as if the 10th and 17th greens were transposed.
All I am judging is the sequence of the holes in the routing.
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I agree that the 17th green to 18th tee is a bit of a headscratcher, but it's hard to really say without seeing it on the ground.
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What's to like? I've never seen anything like the walk from 17 green to 18 tee. Who wants to be putting on 10 and have to listen to clicking irons as people walk past the green. I would guess carts would be rerouted. It almost looks as if the 10th and 17th greens were transposed.
All I am judging is the sequence of the holes in the routing.
I do agree with John, it seems like the 10th hole should play to the 17th green and vice versa.
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I will go on record saying that this is a bogus drawing being used to sell rube investors on the project. No way a course this obtuse gets built. Some apprentice, with poor drafting skills no less, misinterpreted Tiger's field notes. No harm really.
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I will go on record saying that this is a bogus drawing being used to sell rube investors on the project. No way a course this obtuse gets built. Some apprentice, with poor drafting skills no less, misinterpreted Tiger's field notes. No harm really.
I think you are close...
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Looks like the arroyos are the primary feature of the site and this maximizes its use. If you use it in its most stategic sense, I'd be wiling to overlook the walks from 10 to 11 and 17 to 18.
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What's to like? I've never seen anything like the walk from 17 green to 18 tee. Who wants to be putting on 10 and have to listen to clicking irons as people walk past the green. I would guess carts would be rerouted. It almost looks as if the 10th and 17th greens were transposed.
All I am judging is the sequence of the holes in the routing.
I do agree with John, it seems like the 10th hole should play to the 17th green and vice versa.
Says a group of guys in another country with zero knowledge of the topography. Seriously nobody can see why the green sites would be on the respective holes? So a couple of pedestrian approaches with death long on the back nine is preferrable tp a perhaps 70 yard walk from green to tee
?
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We should not be judging the merits of the entirety of the golf course. What we can do is make some observations. i don't think it's ridiculous for us to make comments about the routing from thousands of miles away so long as we acknowledge that we do not know about the topography and acknowledge that what we don't know if the proposed decisions were feasible.
That being said, from what I can see I like the look of the individual holes, but the "Future Development" zones are suspect, and I wonder if the best land for the golf course is really being used. For example, the walk from 9 to 10 has a "Future Development" zone right in between. It's not much of a walk around the building, but if their first priority was the golf course, would they really put homes in this location? Why not put a path that bypasses the clubhouse and utilizes the natural aspects of the landscape?
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Connor,
It's a real estate development in one of the few areas in this hemisphere where real estate is still doing ok. The idea is to sell high end property, and frankly it's fairly tempting. Don't know if you realize this, but homes that have a golf course or an ocean view demand a premium. As for prime property going to real estate, on my one drive through the property on my way to Diamante, it seemed like decent land for the purpose with plenty of interesting bits and plenty of room for development. The really bold features have already been utilized for the Diamante Course, so they clearly aren't afraid to use prime property for golf. It's one of the main selling points of the place, so to give it short shrift would be shooting yourself in the foot. While there are a few properties on this course, it doesn't look all that intrusive compared to many real estate developments where houses line each hole corridor and the course is unwalkable. Remember, this is the SECOND course next to it's big brother. Diamante is the trophy property, this course just needs to be a nice alternative for member/homeowners. I was pretty impressed with what I saw in the first phase of development so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see the next phase. And if Kavanaugh made his way down there, there's no way he'd come home without a member's bag tag and a place near the beach... 8)
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Jud...that is the truth Re Kav..
I went and played Diamante without ANY interest in EVER becoming a part of a "time share" property...and well, I am in!!!
Christmas at Diamante this year :D
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New photos of Tiger's course, which Golf.com says the 7,401-yard course is expected to open this fall.
http://www.golf.com/photos/tiger-woods-el-cardonal-nears-completion/tiger-woods-diamante?xid=trips020514_headline (http://www.golf.com/photos/tiger-woods-el-cardonal-nears-completion/tiger-woods-diamante?xid=trips020514_headline)
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From Tiger's Instagram account today, looks like he's making another visit down there. I guess he left his back brace out of this picture.
From a GCA standpoint, seems like the course would be close to opening.
(http://scontent-b.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-frc/t51.2885-15/10349724_609510619145809_1954336149_n.jpg)
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That hole an alps/punchbowl?
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Anyone who isn't interested in how this course turns out is lying to themselves. He's the most well known golf figure in the world right now. He's obviously not the one running the dozer or putting the finishing touches on greens, but at the end of the day it's his "Team" and he has final say on everything.
I would be interested to know how much he has had an impact on styling and the aesthetics of the course. He's never built a bunker in his life but he's seen a million of them. I think for him, placement of a bunker is easier than making the hole visually appealing or tying it all together.
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Anyone who isn't interested in how this course turns out is lying to themselves. .
Mike,
there are billions of people on the planet who could not give a t*%s about this project though of the people on this site I dare say the vast majority are interested to see how it pans out.
Jon
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I'm honestly not interested in whatever project Jack Nicklaus puts his name to next so why would it be different with Tiger?
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Paul,
Do you care about what Ben Crenshaw does next? The hope is that he's doing more than just marketing his name and he and his team can actually make a real contribution in GCA terms. A bit of a long shot I grant you, but hope spring eternal.
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Whatever his overall contribution is the golf course will be solid at worst. With Paul acting as project manager on behalf of the developer and on site/equipment on a daily basis details will be looked after, subtle tweaks/improvements made and a good course will result.
Going with Tiger was a no brainer for the developer. As much as some on here want to ignore the marketing side of things it is all that matters at the end of the day when your investment/livelihood is on the line.
They could have hired Hanse to do a very good course and would be light years behind in sales at this stage.
It is what it is and with Paul's involvement I would say a win/win/win for the owner, bankers and golfers.
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Thanks Greg - Tiger has put together a very strong design team in Beau Welling and Shane Robichard, and the El Cardonal course is excellent and a great compliment to the Dunes course. I don't want to preview more in advance of its late fall opening except to say Tiger's first course will be well worth the wait!
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Jud,
To put it simply, no. That said, Crenshaw's long standing interest in quality architecture puts him a long way ahead of Colin Montgomerie, Nick Faldo or the majority of other pros that slap their name on a product.
I spent last year playing what was supposedly a Peter Alliss course. Being "the voice of golf" didn't make the course any better.
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Going with Tiger was a no brainer for the developer. As much as some on here want to ignore the marketing side of things it is all that matters at the end of the day when your investment/livelihood is on the line.
They could have hired Hanse to do a very good course and would be light year's behind in sales at this stage.
Greg
I believe that if they added Tiger's fee to their existing PR and advertising budgets, in the right targeted markets, they would be just as well off, if not better.
IMO Owners buy a property for the following not Tiger:
Gated security, an ocean, private beach, golf, clubhouse, crystal lagoon, spa, fitness center, equestrian center, concierge, high speed internet, tennis, family center, five star service...
How can you prove me wrong?
Cheers
Mike
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"How can you prove me wrong?"
Sales. Developers who can do these deals aren't stupid. Very few if any would hire Woods or Nicklaus just to rub shoulders. Buyers at this level are far more familiar with Tiger Woods than Gil Hanse, and I suspect that the best player's name also has much greater cache with their friends and associates. That the developer would bring in someone like Paul demonstrates that he is covering all bases. Of course, I could be wrong.
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How can you prove me wrong?
Cheers
Mike
By talking with and listening to thousands of golfers that have traveled to this area and will return, at least in part, to play Tiger's first course. Of course I could wheel out all of the free advertising they have received via tiger's name but that will only grow exponentially over the coming months.
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"How can you prove me wrong?"
Sales. Developers who can do these deals aren't stupid. Very few if any would hire Woods or Nicklaus just to rub shoulders. Buyers at this level are far more familiar with Tiger Woods than Gil Hanse, and I suspect that the best player's name also has much greater cache with their friends and associates. That the developer would bring in someone like Paul demonstrates that he is covering all bases. Of course, I could be wrong.
Lou, you are not. The decision was between THE name and, with all due respect (he knows I mean that), a no name. The fact is the course would never rival the one already in the ground and the only way to generate buzz was by opening the first Tiger Woods course on planet earth. Quite frankly easy decision with the future of the project in the balance.
Your comment about shoulder rubbing might be a little naïve though... generally speaking.
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Greg,
I wasn't referring to myself as a competitor but as a golfer and home owner.
It is not free advertising.
It is paid in the form of a fee to Tiger and the existing PR and advertising budgets.
Lou,
What were the sales of El Ruwaya, Punta Brava, The Cliffs or Carlton Woods?
It is my belief that a future home owner cares more about a gated entrance or high speed internet than who designed the golf course.
I am asking for proof that if I developed a real estate golf course and spent $5-20MM on PR and advertising about having the best internet access in the world, the best gated security + all the other amenities, that I wouldn't sell just as much real estate.
Cheers
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Your comment about shoulder rubbing might be a little naïve though... generally speaking.
Greg,
Your comments are appreciated. I only wish that Cabo was not so far away. We have a family friend that has offered us their house in Cabo and it is just too far at this stage of life. I went back to your old interview:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewtallman/
What does the future hold for the greater region around Cabo San Lucas from a golf perspective?
The future of golf in the region is very bright. As mentioned before the finest architects in the business are being given some great parcels of land on which to design their courses. In the next 10 years we should see upwards of 20 new courses open in the Los Cabos area. The development of the pacific side (Los Cabos is actually on The Gulf of California or Sea of Cortéz) along the the area beyond San José del Cabo known as the East Cape is moving full steam ahead with some exciting new projects in the works that will certainly add to the lure of Cabo as a must see golf destination.It is not only the immediate are of Cabo that is growing either. Some day in the future you will see golf junkies planning extended vacations to Los Cabos only to take a few days out of the trip to visit Todos Santos, approximately one hour north in the Pacific Ocean and La Paz, the state capital that is about 2 and one half hours north on the Sea Of Cortéz as the golf is beginning to develop in these areas as well. Baja is a special place ¦ among the best on earth.
Considering this was done in 2008, it seems you were pretty close in your predictions.
As the resort moves forward, it will be interesting to see/understand how much the Tiger brand/name brings in.
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Greg,
I wasn't referring to myself as a competitor but as a golfer and home owner.
It is not free advertising.
It is paid in the form of a fee to Tiger and the existing PR and advertising budgets.
Lou,
What were the sales of El Ruwaya, Punta Brava, The Cliffs or Carlton Woods?
It is my belief that a future home owner cares more about a gated entrance or high speed internet than who designed the golf course.
I am asking for proof that if I developed a real estate golf course and spent $5-20MM on PR and advertising about having the best internet access in the world, the best gated security + all the other amenities, that I wouldn't sell just as much real estate.
Cheers
Mike, my no name reference was to the person actually under consideration for the course when they flipped to Tiger.
That project, specifically the portion around the Tiger course, is predominantly timeshare rather than real estate and thus Tiger's name has has had a huge impact on the sales process and success. Also being able to point out Tiger's home on site plays on the vanity of even the most successful executive types.
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Greg,
I wasn't referring to myself as a competitor but as a golfer and home owner.
It is not free advertising.
It is paid in the form of a fee to Tiger and the existing PR and advertising budgets.
Lou,
What were the sales of El Ruwaya, Punta Brava, The Cliffs or Carlton Woods?
It is my belief that a future home owner cares more about a gated entrance or high speed internet than who designed the golf course.
I am asking for proof that if I developed a real estate golf course and spent $5-20MM on PR and advertising about having the best internet access in the world, the best gated security + all the other amenities, that I wouldn't sell just as much real estate.
Cheers
Mike, my no name reference was to the person actually under consideration for the course when they flipped to Tiger.
That project, specifically the portion around the Tiger course, is predominantly timeshare rather than real estate and thus Tiger's name has has had a huge impact on the sales process and success. Also being able to point out Tiger's home on site plays on the vanity of even the most successful executive types.
Being a member at Diamante myself and seeing the course last December on a tour with Paul, I will agree with his comments.
A good compliment to the Dunes course, a good variety of golf holes and what looks like being a very good finishing stretch.
As for the use og TIGER WOODS for sales, it has been a windstorm of success.
From the moment his name was associated with the development the sales have been flourishing, perhaps we on here underestimate the power of the man in making sales?
Having seen the sales figures since his involvement, it is beyond statistical significance to be just a result of improving economies ;)
As good as the Dunes course is, I promise you Tiger moves the sales needle better than a top 50 golf course in the world on the same property does.
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Your comment about shoulder rubbing might be a little naïve though... generally speaking.
Greg,
Your comments are appreciated. I only wish that Cabo was not so far away. We have a family friend that has offered us their house in Cabo and it is just too far at this stage of life. I went back to your old interview:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewtallman/
What does the future hold for the greater region around Cabo San Lucas from a golf perspective?
The future of golf in the region is very bright. As mentioned before the finest architects in the business are being given some great parcels of land on which to design their courses. In the next 10 years we should see upwards of 20 new courses open in the Los Cabos area. The development of the pacific side (Los Cabos is actually on The Gulf of California or Sea of Cortéz) along the the area beyond San José del Cabo known as the East Cape is moving full steam ahead with some exciting new projects in the works that will certainly add to the lure of Cabo as a must see golf destination.It is not only the immediate are of Cabo that is growing either. Some day in the future you will see golf junkies planning extended vacations to Los Cabos only to take a few days out of the trip to visit Todos Santos, approximately one hour north in the Pacific Ocean and La Paz, the state capital that is about 2 and one half hours north on the Sea Of Cortéz as the golf is beginning to develop in these areas as well. Baja is a special place ¦ among the best on earth.
Considering this was done in 2008, it seems you were pretty close in your predictions.
As the resort moves forward, it will be interesting to see/understand how much the Tiger brand/name brings in.
1. Too far from where?
2. While the crash that occurred a few months after that interview brought Cabo to a screeching halt for a few years it does appear things are back on track. Through the collapse of the world economy Ken & team at Diamante not only weathered the storm but opened a terrific golf course and got enough traction development wise to come out the other end and will open the Tiger course this fall; Chileno Bay managed to find money to keep things alive to the point that a golf course that was practically finished in 2009 should open in earnest this fall or winter and Quivira kept things alive and will now open their first course this summer. Not many locations/destinations can say they will introduce three new courses at roughly the same time these days. In fact I would say perhaps Cabo would stand alone in that regard.
Some of the projects on the drawing board back in 2008 are either in a permanent holding pattern or have been scrapped all together. That said there are a few others, beyond those mentioned above, that are either in construction or should start soon.
-Greg Norman's team will get started on a course a little north (not adjacent) of Diamante on the Pacific sometime this year.
-Rees Jones is doing a course just south of Loreto about 5-6 hours north of Cabo
-Nicklaus likely to get started on a project just northeast of San José del Cabo - same project Bill Coore had worked on routing plans for the previous developer
If a million, perhaps several million, things fall into place we could see a C&C involvement on the Pacific. It is a bit of a long shot at this stage but one can hope.
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and the Mountain course????????
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and the Mountain course????????
Some day... let's chat soon about some ideas (yeah, apologies in advance). And you know darn well we'll have grass on the ground before I put anything concrete about that on GCA.
Road trip to Morgantown in early December?
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1. Too far from where?
We are in NYC. Yes I know there are direct flights now to Cabo, but I am married to a Disneyfile and I will just have to live with Doak and C&C courses 45 minutes from Mickey and Walt at Disneyworld.
Yes, I understand the power of Tiger's Brand. I/we/my wife bought a Mickey Mouse time share surrounded by Doak 4's on over watered lake filled courses in Orlando :) I am one of the few in Florida who bought 10 years ago and has not lost his shirt ;D Mickey and Tiger have pull same as jobs and schools in traditional markets.
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Update and photos...
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/10/21/first-look-tigers-el-cardonal-course-in-cabo.html (http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/10/21/first-look-tigers-el-cardonal-course-in-cabo.html)
http://m.golf.com/1198301/exclusive-see-tigers-new-course/ (http://m.golf.com/1198301/exclusive-see-tigers-new-course/)
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MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!
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MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!
In the meantime:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2014/12/16/tiger-woods-golf-design-cabo-san-lucas-diamante/20489787/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2014/12/16/tiger-woods-golf-design-cabo-san-lucas-diamante/20489787/)
http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/12038811/tiger-woods-long-awaited-first-designed-course-opens (http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/12038811/tiger-woods-long-awaited-first-designed-course-opens)
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/tiger-woods-open-his-first-design-diamantes-el-cardonal (http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/tiger-woods-open-his-first-design-diamantes-el-cardonal)
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/woods-officially-opens-first-course-design-mexico/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/woods-officially-opens-first-course-design-mexico/)
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/dec/17/tiger-woods-designed-el-cardonal-opens-mexico/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2014/dec/17/tiger-woods-designed-el-cardonal-opens-mexico/)
http://www.globalgolfpost.com/blog/inside-tigers-new-course/ (http://www.globalgolfpost.com/blog/inside-tigers-new-course/)
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/12/16/tigers-still-battling-flu-symptoms-as-he-opens-first-design.html (http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/12/16/tigers-still-battling-flu-symptoms-as-he-opens-first-design.html)
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MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!
I heard he shot 87 and now chips/pitches as poorly as Tiger. He used to have some game back in the day,but now he can't play dead ;D.
That's what happens when you live in Arkansas.
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MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!
I heard he shot 87 and now chips/pitches as poorly as Tiger. He used to have some game back in the day,but now he can't play dead ;D.
That's what happens when you live in Arkansas.
That is welcome news as he and I have a tee time in about an hour at Chileno Bay Club. I may only lose 3&2. ;)
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I hadn't seen this thread before, but just saw the photos from opening day. Two thoughts came to mind: 1) I wonder if Paul C was involved, and 2) it looks a lot like a C&C course. Thumbs up on both counts!
Peter
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MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!
I heard he shot 87 and now chips/pitches as poorly as Tiger. He used to have some game back in the day,but now he can't play dead ;D.
That's what happens when you live in Arkansas.
That is welcome news as he and I have a tee time in about an hour at Chileno Bay Club. I may only lose 3&2. ;)
No such luck. MWP must play a mean guitar in his spare time as he is quite the "picker" and covered the flag on any number of approaches.
Entertaining to play with a guy who points out swing faults and talks himself into a bad swing more often than I! Good thing we were a twosome as had we been paired with the other 2 players on the course they would have assumed we were completely nuts and quite defeatist... correctly I am afraid.
The course is coming along nicely and they are starting to finish off the bunker complex surrounds that will make a huge difference. Once they complete that and get the turf thinned out a bit the course will be a head turner. Perhaps Fazio's best, certainly among his most natural. Only the finishing hole is a bit of "old Fazio" with a massive green with broad sweeping slopes at the end of a 510 yard par 4... I'll let MWP take a shot at that as this was among a quite brief list of critiques on a very good golf course.
Enjoyed chatting about the new Tiger course as well but when MWP shows with the Swoosh from head to orange and yellow toe one must wonder a bit.
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Greg oh Greg.....
Only he could possibly write like that, tell the truth and make me laugh histerically that is the definition of a true friend....awesome.
Just a quickie and hopefully when I get back to the mainland and have time to put a more detailed few sentences together, a more detailed description.
El Cardonal ,or Tigers course, a good adjunct to the superb dunes course.
More player friendly for certain which was the primary mission statement, nothing like a C AND C course, pictures must be misleading but not said in a negative way.
Very Fazio'ish which makes perfect sense considering co designers are Fazio disciples.
Greens are very playable have some marvelous contours without going overboard and making the time on the green excessive and frustrating.
Good use of the terrain and hole shaping to match said terrain, bunkering looks very nice, finishing on the bunkers came out superbly, perhaps too many at times but thus the Fazio influence one feels.
MARVELOUS variety of tee placements which serves to fulfill the primate goal of making a go,f course all can play.
I would imagine that all at Tiger Woods design are happy with the finished product as are the vast majority of members that I have talked to since, and bottom line is that if the owner and members are happy, job accomplished.
Big challenge in my mind is to see how the next course over very similar terrain is designed to differ and provide the membership with something different.
CHILEBO BAY.
Many in here know that my general comments on FAzio courses are"never played a bad one, but never played one that makes me excited" that I believe would probably fit into what a lot of think about the good mans work.
Incredibly consistent, always of good quality but often lacking panache and being a little samey with the odd few green complexes that leave you starching your head.
CHILENO IS NOT one of those.
I have not played Wade Hampton but this is my favorite Fazio layout so far.
Yes it is unfinished around the bunkers, some without mush sand, but considering a massive Hurricane not long ago and multiple owner shake ups along the way, this is one damn good golf course.
Great greens that resemble the eb and flow of the Ocean, nice gentle rolls perhaps increasing to the odd swell here and there, tremendous run off and collection areas, wonderful vistas and deceiving carries, option to playing holes abound, the course plays more like a C&C or Doak in terms of strategy , great variety of hole types especially if one mixes and matches the tee boxes, which is what GReg and I did.
Wonderful golf course and in my mind in the top three in the area even in it's current state of unfinishing.
BUT as a downer number 18 needs work
As for Greg!!!!!!!!
The ultimate host,tour guide,officianado ofgolf tourism business and just simply great guy.
His passion for Cabo golf is palpable,the area is back and running and bang for your buck as good as ANYWHERE I know or have travelled.
One of my favorite places anywhere and to be able to share a round of golf here with one who has become a friend over the years, one to put into the bucket list of things to do again😄and again.
Coffee time over, last day here, time to go up to the range convince myself that my swing fault can indeed be corrected even after 30 odd years of old school abuse and when I get than downhill hanging lie remember Gregs good words and don't convince myself I CANT HIT the shot before I start😱
As for the NIke head to toe...yes I love the swoosh and they are very good to me, but this is golf course architecture and that is serious stuff, gloves off😉
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Interesting tidbit that tee times on the Dunes course were easy to come by this week while people lined up for the far lesser El Cardonal. Anyone wondering about the value of Tiger's name need look no further than that. As with everything else thus far the Diamante team hit a home run with this one.
Best summation of the golf course... Kinda like marrying into the Rockefeller family; "what does she look like?"... "Who cares, she's a Rockefeller"
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;D
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;D
Looks like your smile whilst observing the 18th green at Chileno!
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Yep it took an entire 18 holes to get Fazioed....that is a record though.
It baffles me that somebody couldn't see the glaring difference between 17 other green complexes and the final one and simply say, this may not fit?
Is the boss that scary,or us it that nobody is prepared to stand up and say something like,No we won't have a bunker in front of number 5 and stick to their guns😉
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Yep it took an entire 18 holes to get Fazioed....that is a record though.
It baffles me that somebody couldn't see the glaring difference between 17 other green complexes and the final one and simply say, this may not fit?
Is the boss that scary,or us it that nobody is prepared to stand up and say something like,No we won't have a bunker in front of number 5 and stick to their guns😉
LOL, yeah I might have questioned that green... ONCE!
It is not even a case of "one of these things is not like the other" but more like 17 beauties and one horrible beast. At least the hole is consistent from tee to green!