Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mike Hendren on February 19, 2012, 07:07:01 PM
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Are the short trees / bushes left of the green its primary defense against the long hitter?
Bogey
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Green tilt is what makes this hole. Brilliant use of slope to confound the great players.
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Would have loved to have seen Haas lay up after the first two hit.
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Agree with Ben. Watching this second playoff hole is the most fun I've ever had watching golf!
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Guess he didn't need to.
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I have to agree this playoff is fun. I, too, thought Haas should have laid up. Then again, he made the putt and won the tourney.
I was going to start a separate thread, but related to it's brilliance, I'm wondering how the hole is for the average club player, with an index of 5 - 15? Early in the broadcast Faldo was using the telestrator to show all the places you CAN'T hit the ball to score on this hole. Basically, with the pin in today's position he said the only "good miss" is essential short and left, along the axis of the green.
So, for the amateur, if they try to drive the green and miss (most likely outcome) they're left with a nearly impossible up and down and a very difficult par. However, even if the handicap player lays up, his odds of hitting and holding that small green in regulation can't be too great. So, is this hole too hard for the mid-handicapper? I know it was among the easiest (by score avg.) for the pros, but what about for us mortals?
PS. I love short par 4's, and my favorite hole at my club is the short 14th hole.
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I was stuck with familly commitments, but saw last 10 minutes. Was that Tommy N., sitting greenside on 18th in a grey tee shirt? Wow, what a classic end on a classic hole!!!
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A terrific hole, impervious to technology and if they need a bush or two to bedevil the pros on a 300 yard hole, I'll plant the damn bush. What a fun, gca-geek end to a tournament!
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I started tearing up while I was watching the end. Really. The 10th is one of my favorite designs, and this finish completely validated Thomas' ideas and the principles of the Golden Age architects.
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Would have loved to have seen Haas lay up after the first two hit.
+1
but with that hole location ???
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I started tearing up while I was watching the end. Really. The 10th is one of my favorite designs, and this finish completely validated Thomas' ideas and the principles of the Golden Age architects.
Should we worry about you, Matthew? ;D
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Would have loved to have seen Haas lay up after the first two hit.
+1
but with that hole location ???
Short and left, probably a five iron shot for him. Would have left a pitch right down the axis of the green.
The genius move was not attacking the pin on his second. He left a makeable (albeit long) putt. Both Phil and Keegan went after the back section on their second shots and paid the price.
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A terrific hole, impervious to technology and if they need a bush or two to bedevil the pros on a 300 yard hole, I'll plant the damn bush. What a fun, gca-geek end to a tournament!
This. Very well said, I completely agree. Great hole!
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so you miss the five-iron, then what?
not really a small bush guy, LOL
definitely a great match play hole! (like most short par 4s)
end of story
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I started tearing up while I was watching the end. Really. The 10th is one of my favorite designs, and this finish completely validated Thomas' ideas and the principles of the Golden Age architects.
Should we worry about you, Matthew? ;D
Yes, but there are plenty of other reasons to do so!
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I started tearing up while I was watching the end. Really. The 10th is one of my favorite designs, and this finish completely validated Thomas' ideas and the principles of the Golden Age architects.
Should we worry about you, Matthew? ;D
Yes, but there are plenty of other reasons to do so!
That's always the case with good guys...
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You have to give Fazio credit for having the genius to not muck up the tenth. The green reminds me of the original 14th at Bandon Trails, RIP.
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We've done several threads in the past on both "Great Short Par 4's" and "#10 at Riviera".
If I knew how to pull up the links, I would do it.
They're in the archives, though.
Any volunteers?
The hole is like #14 @ PB or #15 @ PV. The purest of golf architecture right there on the ground. No ocean, no Stupid Trees, no "windmills and clown's noses" green that is too fast for its contours - just great angles and bunkering.
The essence of a great short par 4 - total precision required.
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Compare ten at Riv to 14 at Pebble? Sistine Chapel vs The Love Shack.
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Here's one of them:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.0.html
This thread touches on Terry's point above:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18505.0.html
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We've done several threads in the past on both "Great Short Par 4's" and "#10 at Riviera".
If I knew how to pull up the links, I would do it.
They're in the archives, though.
Any volunteers?
The hole is like #14 @ PB or #15 @ PV. The purest of golf architecture right there on the ground. No ocean, no Stupid Trees, no "windmills and clown's noses" green that is too fast for its contours - just great angles and bunkering.
The essence of a great short par 4 - total precision required.
At your service. A few to start with...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18505.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18505.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1057.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1057.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1940.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1940.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38674.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38674.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27642.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27642.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,8877.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,8877.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24133.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24133.0.html)
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A terrific hole, impervious to technology and if they need a bush or two to bedevil the pros on a 300 yard hole, I'll plant the damn bush. What a fun, gca-geek end to a tournament!
Perfect comment. You've got my vote, your Honor!!
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You have to give Fazio credit for having the genius to not muck up the tenth. The green reminds me of the original 14th at Bandon Trails, RIP.
Don't be so sure. Geoff had a player come up to him yesterday and ask if was true that "Fazio" was going to rework the 10th. Genius?
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You have to give Fazio credit for having the genius to not muck up the tenth. The green reminds me of the original 14th at Bandon Trails, RIP.
Don't be so sure. Geoff had a player come up to him yesterday and ask if was true that "Fazio" was going to rework the 10th. Genius?
Temptation is an evil mistress. I know that if I have any failure as a man it is my lack of restraint when faced by opportunity. If Fazio eventually gives in and leaves his mark on the tenth I will not judge him for such, nor should any of us. Instead I will continue to celebrate what remains great rather than pine for what is lost or the potential of what could have been. After all, a course, is a course, is a course and it was a great course we witnessed today.
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With that pin and their ability to stick an 85-yard wedge, I'm really surprised nobody ALL DAY hit a 220-yard shot left of the fairway bunkers. Phil and Keegan both proved a green side tee shot to the right doesn't work. Haas played a very smart shot.
The birdies on 18 were the best moment I've seen on tour in a long time!
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You should really give this Fazio garbage a rest, John. Every year it is the same crap, yet when it comes to any actual substantive discussion about the merits of the changes, you slink away with nothing relevant to say. From what I can tell, the course is great despite Fazio, not because of him. Even you must realize this.
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With that pin and their ability to stick an 85-yard wedge, I'm really surprised nobody ALL DAY hit a 220-yard shot left of the fairway bunkers. Phil and Keegan both proved a green side tee shot to the right doesn't work. Haas played a very smart shot.
The birdies on 18 were the best moment I've seen on tour in a long time!
I don't know about "nobody all day". Earlier in the week they mentioned that 55% of the golfers laid up. That is down from 69% in 2004, but still it is a substantial percentage.
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With that pin and their ability to stick an 85-yard wedge, I'm really surprised nobody ALL DAY hit a 220-yard shot left of the fairway bunkers. Phil and Keegan both proved a green side tee shot to the right doesn't work. Haas played a very smart shot.
The birdies on 18 were the best moment I've seen on tour in a long time!
I don't know about "nobody all day". Earlier in the week they mentioned that 55% of the golfers laid up. That is down from 69% in 2004, but still it is a substantial percentage.
I was referring o today, Sunday, when I think I heard nobody laid up.
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I recall Mike Weir laying up in a playoff and winning - I think he beat Howell, who went for it.
Bill, I think it is still a pretty treacherous wedge shot, even for these guys. I do agree that it seems like more should try it though.
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Is it possible to lay-up and then play a wedge out short left 15 feet and leave yourself a putt at it? I guess because I'm a short hitter the hole plays easier for me, I know I'm not getting close.
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You should really give this Fazio garbage a rest, John. Every year it is the same crap, yet when it comes to any actual substantive discussion about the merits of the changes, you slink away with nothing relevant to say. From what I can tell, the course is great despite Fazio, not because of him. Even you must realize this.
Yes David, it is great in spite of him and the current ownership. It isn't always as easy as it looks to be given the world and not screw it up. The only thing he could have done better was to do nothing at all. We get it.
Btw. I drove the tenth green.
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Laying up is a horrendous strategy with the firmness of the green and hole location today.
That's why these guys are PGA Tour Pros winning millions and you're monday morning quarterbacks making comments after the outcome.
It's a terrific hole, but then again, are there many bad holes with diagonal greens that are well protected by bunkers ?
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I found it great strategy to drive the 11th tee. Made birdie...
It's a great hole.
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David,
JakaB doesn't understand the inherent difference between medal and match play and the respective strategies involved.
Bad or inaccurate drives were the problem.
I suspect all three were trying to hit their tee shots into the bunker.
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I was referring o today, Sunday, when I think I heard nobody laid up.
I don't have the total numbers but definitely a number of golfers laid up. For example, I just checked a few groups and I see that Luke Donald laid up and birdied, and YE Yang and Adam Scott laid up and parred. Kevin Na laid up and took a seven -- 2nd into front bunker, 3rd over back right, 4th on, three putts. (This might have had something to do with the slightly higher scoring average for this who laid up.)
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Patrick, Depending on the golfer, I am not so sure I agree with you about the layup being "horrendous strategy."
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John. Nice posturing, but as bereft of substance as your pro-Fazio cheerleading. Let me ask you again the same question you skirted on the other thread: Do the changes honor the aesthetics and playing characteristics of the original design?
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David, I do not honor or dismiss the past, I play my ball where it lies.
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No you don't. If you did you'd not annually regale us with your mindless cheerleading.
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Can you really call one-sided analysis playing it where it lies?
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Keegan was quoted on the hole being somewhat unfair (not completely unfair, mind you.) That, in my mind, gives it greatness potential.
Is there a better playoff sequence on the PGA Tour than 18-10 at Riviera? Could you have two more diverse holes that call for similar (up the left) placement? Two better holes, anywhere, that are regularly used as such?
Patrick, define the layup...since these guys can pretty much zipper anything outside of 30 yards, couldn't they get a ball within 100 yards of the green, in the fairway, and hit it to where Haas did or closer?
Was there any difference in firmness between front, middle and back sections of the putting surface?
Bruce Campbell's quote about spies being "bitchy little girls" in the opening to Burn Notice has nothing on this thread.
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Kevin Na laid up and took a seven -- 2nd into front bunker, 3rd over back right, 4th on, three putts.
I can relate to this. That bunker shot to a back right pin is undelievably difficult. The difficulty is not apparent to you until you get to the ball, and look at the pin and the green falling away from you. If you can't land your sandshot onto the front fringe, you are in the back bunker.
Perhaps some astute golfers will play away from the pin towards the front left - also steeply downhill.
Honestly, the second last place you want to be on 10 to a back right pin is in the sand just in front of the pin (the last place would be perhaps 5 yards short of that bunker).
James B
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Are the short trees / bushes left of the green its primary defense against the long hitter?
Bogey
Bogey
I thimk its more than that - the combination of the type of grass, green narrowness, and angles will continually pose questions for both the long and short hitters. I love the hole.
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You should really give this Fazio garbage a rest, John. Every year it is the same crap, yet when it comes to any actual substantive discussion about the merits of the changes, you slink away with nothing relevant to say. From what I can tell, the course is great despite Fazio, not because of him. Even you must realize this.
Yes David, it is great in spite of him and the current ownership. It isn't always as easy as it looks to be given the world and not screw it up. The only thing he could have done better was to do nothing at all. We get it.
Btw. I drove the tenth green.
Idiot. You should have laid up.
;D
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Laying up is a horrendous strategy with the firmness of the green and hole location today.
That's why these guys are PGA Tour Pros winning millions and you're monday morning quarterbacks making comments after the outcome.
It's a terrific hole, but then again, are there many bad holes with diagonal greens that are well protected by bunkers ?
Granted the green was very firm. However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position. Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?
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...However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position. Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?
Lynn, there is a not-well-known book that follows DLIII day by day through this tourney - I think it's called Through The Green or something like that - and in it, Davis describes the 10th as having a barranca, and indeed there was a rules question as to whether or not he grounded his club in it. Where is this area he described? Have they change the maintenance practices so that it's gone?
Just curious, thought you might know.
[This is the book ==> http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20), for those interested. Please don't buy all the copies, I got mine from the library and plan on buying one! :)]
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George, pretty sure Davis lost in a playoff to Couples back in the early 90s, on #10 IIRC.
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Laying up is a horrendous strategy with the firmness of the green and hole location today.
That's why these guys are PGA Tour Pros winning millions and you're monday morning quarterbacks making comments after the outcome.
It's a terrific hole, but then again, are there many bad holes with diagonal greens that are well protected by bunkers ?
Granted the green was very firm. However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position. Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?
Laying up couldn't have been worse than Phil's tee shot.
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...However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position. Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?
Lynn, there is a not-well-known book that follows DLIII day by day through this tourney - I think it's called Through The Green or something like that - and in it, Davis describes the 10th as having a barranca, and indeed there was a rules question as to whether or not he grounded his club in it. Where is this area he described? Have they change the maintenance practices so that it's gone?
Just curious, thought you might know.
It was the 12th hole. As far as I know it is still a hazard. Love made a 7 and I think it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.
[This is the book ==> http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20), for those interested. Please don't buy all the copies, I got mine from the library and plan on buying one! :)]
It was the 12th hole. As far as I know it is still a hazard. I believe he made 7 and it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.
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...However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position. Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?
Lynn, there is a not-well-known book that follows DLIII day by day through this tourney - I think it's called Through The Green or something like that - and in it, Davis describes the 10th as having a barranca, and indeed there was a rules question as to whether or not he grounded his club in it. Where is this area he described? Have they change the maintenance practices so that it's gone?
Just curious, thought you might know.
It was the 12th hole. As far as I know it is still a hazard. Love made a 7 and I think it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.
[This is the book ==> http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20), for those interested. Please don't buy all the copies, I got mine from the library and plan on buying one! :)]
It was the 12th hole. As far as I know it is still a hazard. I believe he made 7 and it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.
Thanks, Lynn, I thought you would know.
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I too find a hole with so many options, so short yet so able to get scores from eagle to double bogie so easy remarkable in its design. It is even better for we mere mortals who have that first set of traps to figure into our plan.
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Would have loved to have seen Haas lay up after the first two hit.
Sven - he did, on his approach.
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Lynn, et. al.,
How much different would play be IF THE BUNKERS WEREN'T RAKED ?
Does meticulous grooming add to the options ?
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Lynn, et. al.,
How much different would play be IF THE BUNKERS WEREN'T RAKED ?
Does meticulous grooming add to the options ?
I don't think the bunkers, raked, unraked have any thought impact on the tour pro's thinking. In fact I am not even sure they think. They just let it fly. I would much rather have a 100 yard shot for a second shot than any of the 3 had in the playoff.
Actually I would just as soon see the greenside bunkers removed, as it was in the beginning, and let the pros chip from a 2 inch kikuyu rough.
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Granted the green was very firm. However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position. Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?
Yesterday they showed a clip of Faldo making birdie in the final to that same pin in 1996. He laid up to about 90 yards and knocked it to within 10 feet and made the putt. Was it a significantly harder shot this year from the layup this year?
On Sunday it about 84% went for the green from the tee. Of these, about 36% missed the green on their second shot. Of the 12 who laid up on Sunday, half missed the green on their second shot.
For rough comparison's sake, in 2004, for the week, only 31% of the field went for the green, and the scoring average for the week was 3.78. For what it is worth, this year the scoring average for the week was about 3.99.
I don't think the bunkers, raked, unraked have any thought impact on the tour pro's thinking. In fact I am not even sure they think. They just let it fly. I would much rather have a 100 yard shot for a second shot than any of the 3 had in the playoff.
Actually I would just as soon see the greenside bunkers removed, as it was in the beginning, and let the pros chip from a 2 inch kikuyu rough.
Now that would be awesome.
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My take on what happened yesterday
I must say, I was hoping really hard that yesterday's playoff kept going to get to the 10th hole on the Riviera golf course. This hole is one of the best short par 4's in golf and the playoff perfectly showed the design idea of George C.Thomas.
The no 1 element to look at is the narrow and angled green (red lines). Because of the angle, if a player conservatively uses an iron of the tee, he must send the ball to a very precise space (blue circle). To do so, he must play over the point of the big bunker, and not run across the fairway. A hard shot for a safe play.
http://binettegolfarchitecture.blogspot.com/2012/02/genial-en-prolongation-playoff-genius.html
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After Thursday/Friday's round, Phil M discussed his par at the 10th (from the front bunker to the back bunker and out and down). And he said something interesting: "If I wanted to par the hole I'd rather try it from there [front bunker] than from the fairway".
Peter
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After Thursday/Friday's round, Phil M discussed his par at the 10th (from the front bunker to the back bunker and out and down). And he said something interesting: "If I wanted to par the hole I'd rather try it from there [front bunker] than from the fairway".
Peter
I think this is indicative of most pros thinking these days. The days of laying up to a preferred distance are long gone for most. Now, the strategy is almost always, get it as close as possible and rely on your short game. It may have removed or altered one element of the game, but it makes sense to me - the pros accuracy from a set wedge distance is not nearly as good as most seem to think, and their ability to get up and down from anywhere is really quite amazing, the most impressive part of their games, imho.
Not sure what implications that has for design in the future...
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After Thursday/Friday's round, Phil M discussed his par at the 10th (from the front bunker to the back bunker and out and down). And he said something interesting: "If I wanted to par the hole I'd rather try it from there [front bunker] than from the fairway".
Peter
I think this is indicative of most pros thinking these days. The days of laying up to a preferred distance are long gone for most. Now, the strategy is almost always, get it as close as possible and rely on your short game. It may have removed or altered one element of the game, but it makes sense to me - the pros accuracy from a set wedge distance is not nearly as good as most seem to think, and their ability to get up and down from anywhere is really quite amazing, the most impressive part of their games, imho.
Not sure what implications that has for design in the future...
Very interesting point. If I were setting up a design for pros, I would have few bunkers and make the slopes penal, they would become more defensive from the fairway. Of course the average dub may never finish the round, but in general bunkers today help contain a shot and don't bring fear to most golfers. Bunkers for pros are in their comfort level.
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Very interesting point. If I were setting up a design for pros, I would have few bunkers and make the slopes penal, they would become more defensive from the fairway. Of course the average dub may never finish the round, but in general bunkers today help contain a shot and don't bring fear to most golfers. Bunkers for pros are in their comfort level.
I think if you went a step further,you'd help the dub while toughening the shot for good players--mow your penal slopes to fairway height.Short grass is the only thing that comes close to the perfect set up--the dubs can always putt and good players have to think too much for their own good.
Bunkers are just the opposite--havens for good players and terror for the bad.
Signed--Pat Mucci
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If I may ask of the treehouse.......first of all, let me say, I love the 10th hole at Rivirera......so that there is no misunderstanding on my question....here goes.
If the 10th was just a golf hole on a higly ranked course, but the course was not a regular, highly regarded tour stop, and therefore most golfers were not able to see the hole played on TV by the best players in the world and you didn't hear all the adulation from the announcers about how great the hole is.......and average golfers just played the hole with out all that knowledge, what would be reaction and feeling about the hole from players that might only play the hole once or twice and had to formulate their opinion based solely on their play.
What I am poorly asking is....are the slopes, green size, etc, toooooo difficult for the average or even good amateur player and could it be that they might not have as highly regarded an opinion of the hole after making and watching playing companions make bogeys and double bogeys and higher on the hole. I am wondering what the average player thinks about the playability of the hole just based on what they see when they play the hole without all the acclaim and positive commentary. Based on other holes that I know of that have similar playing characteristics but without TV and commentary, my suspicion is that it might not be so highly regarded....but that is why I am asking such a long a drawn out question. :)
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There is a reason why there is an alternate green on that hole..
if it was not on TV... members would have complained that the green is too small and cannot be maintained in proper conditions...
would they have built another green or expand the existing one ???
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JWL,
It does not seem like a hole that would lead to lost balls or having to pick up. That's the fun-killer for most "dubs" I know. The fact that a 300-yard hole can hang a 6 or 7 on your card might be off-putting to the most hard-core of the card and pencil set but I think its desirability has more to do with mental outlook and expectations than with skill level.
I suspect there are a lot of better-than-scratch players who would find it more of a grind than fun if they played it a couple times a week and I think there are bogey golfers who would find it the most fun hole on the course (6's and 7's not withstanding).
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I was out there during the week and FWIW all the greens seemed much firmer than in past years, including 10. The whole course played more firm than usual which I attribute to the fact that we have had very little rain this winter.
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If I may ask of the treehouse.......first of all, let me say, I love the 10th hole at Rivirera......so that there is no misunderstanding on my question....here goes.
If the 10th was just a golf hole on a higly ranked course, but the course was not a regular, highly regarded tour stop, and therefore most golfers were not able to see the hole played on TV by the best players in the world and you didn't hear all the adulation from the announcers about how great the hole is.......and average golfers just played the hole with out all that knowledge, what would be reaction and feeling about the hole from players that might only play the hole once or twice and had to formulate their opinion based solely on their play.
What I am poorly asking is....are the slopes, green size, etc, toooooo difficult for the average or even good amateur player and could it be that they might not have as highly regarded an opinion of the hole after making and watching playing companions make bogeys and double bogeys and higher on the hole. I am wondering what the average player thinks about the playability of the hole just based on what they see when they play the hole without all the acclaim and positive commentary. Based on other holes that I know of that have similar playing characteristics but without TV and commentary, my suspicion is that it might not be so highly regarded....but that is why I am asking such a long a drawn out question. :)
I'm suspecting it might be as controversial, love/hate, as #14 Bandon Trails. It has about the same degree of difficulty on the approach shot.
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If I may ask of the treehouse.......first of all, let me say, I love the 10th hole at Rivirera......so that there is no misunderstanding on my question....here goes.
If the 10th was just a golf hole on a higly ranked course, but the course was not a regular, highly regarded tour stop, and therefore most golfers were not able to see the hole played on TV by the best players in the world and you didn't hear all the adulation from the announcers about how great the hole is.......and average golfers just played the hole with out all that knowledge, what would be reaction and feeling about the hole from players that might only play the hole once or twice and had to formulate their opinion based solely on their play.
What I am poorly asking is....are the slopes, green size, etc, toooooo difficult for the average or even good amateur player and could it be that they might not have as highly regarded an opinion of the hole after making and watching playing companions make bogeys and double bogeys and higher on the hole. I am wondering what the average player thinks about the playability of the hole just based on what they see when they play the hole without all the acclaim and positive commentary. Based on other holes that I know of that have similar playing characteristics but without TV and commentary, my suspicion is that it might not be so highly regarded....but that is why I am asking such a long a drawn out question. :)
Mr. Lipe, the only hole with similar playing characteristics of 10Riv, that I know from experience, that is not played by the best tour pros and almost exclusively played by either GCA fanatics or sodbusters and local sticks, is 15 Wild Horse, Gothenburg NE. I am not familiar with anyone who says it isn't a fabulous golf hole design for a short - drivable par 4. I think as Brent observes, the hard core pen and card competitive people may look at it as a round killer, and pan the design. But I think those players that seek the essence of golf design, options, challenge mentally and playing skill set, embrace this sort of opportunity, that has both a chance for the layup artist with that skill set, the riverboat gambler, and the brave fellow reaching beyond his normal expectations, in hope of beating overwhelming odds he can't pull it off. It is matchplay at its best, IMHO, and golf design fanatics catnip. Add the artistic presentation of the array of bunkering, and the setting, and I think if you are struck negatively by the hole, you might be player whose ability to appreciate the best aspects of being alive and player of the game of golf is jaded by too much competition, not enough fun.
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Bill, McB, Ron Whitten tweeted about the 14th at Bandon Trails and the 10th at Riv.
I don't see the connection. Because, the Riv hole is on much flatter terrain.
Mr. Lipe, I don't see the average hack making double here too often (In my mind) I played the hole once and almost made my par, but that was after two horrendous shots. The only other aspect of your comment I would question is; Why would anyone want to listen to someone who only played the hole twice, and, based their analysis on their own play?
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Like say this hole JWL? Similar but less penal.
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/mexmanbgn/3-1.jpg)
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I would imagine that of the GCA crowd Lyn Shackelford and I have played it the most number of times. In my years as a member I never saw a club member on the green in one and most of us played out to the left off the tee. Played sensibly it was not a difficult par, bashing it as close to the green as possible was an option seldom used.
Bob
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Dave, didn't CBS show a statistic on Sunday as the leaders got to the hole showing that the players who laid up averaged over par (4.08 or whatever) and that the players who went for it were well under par (3.89 or whatever)?
They showed something like that. I don't remember what the difference was though, but I recall it being fairly thin. My guess is that the numbers would change with the the conditions, the pins, and the field.
I seem to recall seeing that. Now, it's possible I'm mistaken, but assuming I wasn't hallucinating on Sunday, how in the world can you arguing that the layup is the better strategy? Oh yeah, it just dawned on me... how silly of me....visions of the scintillating layup to #16 at CPC are now dancing through my head...OK, gotcha...
The "better" strategy? Where did I argue it was the "better" strategy. I argued it is a viable strategy. The great thing about strategy -- something you apparently don't understand -- is that it is about the particular skill set of the player, the conditions, the tee, the pin, the match or score, etc.
Honest question: ever met a layup you didn't like?
Never mind me . . . Bob and Lynn both provide valuable insight after hundreds of plays. But then what does Lynn know? He laid up at Cypress right before I did.
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Ok gotcha?
Ha, he gotchoo! Gesundheit!!! ;D
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My reply No. 67, has been corrected; instead of two, read one.
Bob
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Are the short trees / bushes left of the green its primary defense against the long hitter?
Bogey
I recall 27-years ago that the area where the bushes are was a form of hard, sandy, dirt scrabble; and you really didn't want to end up there. I have memories of Jim Colbert finding that spot and not being too happy. How he got there I'll never know, as Davis Love III and Joey Sindelar (using Accuform woods & irons) were the only guys I recall going for the green and both ended up near the front.
Old time Riviera experts might correct me and claim I got too much sun that day, but my recollection is it was barren, and wasn't a place that was easy to recover from.
Lynn?
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It is a brilliant hole and Riviera is at the very top of courses I'd like to see. Just to stir the pot...
Has the extreme right hand side of the green always sloped downward from front to back or has the front edge been built up by splashed sand over the years? That doesn't appear to be the case since that side of the green is visible in the old photograph posted by Geoff Shackleford.
Perhaps the hole morphs from strategic to penal with Sunday's extreme back right hole location? I ask because unless one lays up from the tee within a few feet of the left-hand rough, the wedged approach still must cross the corner of the fronting bunker, only to land on a down/side slope. From aerials it appears that the ideal line for such an approach would be to place the tee ball on or left of the cart path but for the rough.
Is an extremely shallow green that slopes downward good architecture? I'm surprised George C. Thomas Jr. didn't employ his concept of maintaining fairway behind a green, resulting in one of Tom Paul's much sought after "pitch-back" holes. That's essentially how Haas played it, whether intentionally or not. Had he had a fairway lie he likely would have pitched the ball directly at the hole, hoping to be rewarded for the risk taken.
Bogey
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Sure looks like the entire green sloped away before the inclusion of greenside bunkers:
(http://www.geoffshackelford.com/storage/Riveira10th1927.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1329285098689)
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I love that photo.
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Sure looks like the entire green sloped away before the inclusion of greenside bunkers:
(http://www.geoffshackelford.com/storage/Riveira10th1927.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1329285098689)
Wow, when I see this photo it reminds me a LOAD of Little Aston's 14th. Take away the trees and set the right greenside bunker back off the green and presto - bobs yer uncle. Many consider this the best hole on the course, but I don't think it has any particular fame other than Patric Dickinson praising the hole in his outsanding book, A Round Of Golf Courses.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/LITTLE%20ASTON/20-3-11028.jpg?t=1300656487)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/LITTLE%20ASTON/5March2010260.jpg?t=1267832779)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/LITTLE%20ASTON/20-3-11029.jpg?t=1300656664)
Ciao
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If I may ask of the treehouse.......first of all, let me say, I love the 10th hole at Rivirera......so that there is no misunderstanding on my question....here goes.
If the 10th was just a golf hole on a higly ranked course, but the course was not a regular, highly regarded tour stop, and therefore most golfers were not able to see the hole played on TV by the best players in the world and you didn't hear all the adulation from the announcers about how great the hole is.......and average golfers just played the hole with out all that knowledge, what would be reaction and feeling about the hole from players that might only play the hole once or twice and had to formulate their opinion based solely on their play.
What I am poorly asking is....are the slopes, green size, etc, toooooo difficult for the average or even good amateur player and could it be that they might not have as highly regarded an opinion of the hole after making and watching playing companions make bogeys and double bogeys and higher on the hole. I am wondering what the average player thinks about the playability of the hole just based on what they see when they play the hole without all the acclaim and positive commentary. Based on other holes that I know of that have similar playing characteristics but without TV and commentary, my suspicion is that it might not be so highly regarded....but that is why I am asking such a long a drawn out question. :)
There was a discussion on a similar topic a few years ago, but about Pinehurst No.2:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12219.msg205776.html#msg205776
In Poland I built a version of the 10th at Riviera but in reverse. There is water left but doesn't come into play unless you take the direct line and snap hook it badly; it's so far left it doesn't make it in the photo below. There are no greenside bunkers, the green is wider than at Riviera but with more contour, and the front of the green is a radicalized version of the Road Hole with a spine running through its center. The surrounds of the green are cut close, and it's all fescue, so you can play it low from anywhere. From the member tees it plays to 270-yards. The hole gets its share of bitching because of the green, and it doesn't help that the hole comes late in the round (16th) and suspect it won't get any accolades from those visiting the course as being a hole that stands out from the pack.
http://sandvalleygolf.blogspot.com/2009/07/progression-of-16-in-photos.html (http://sandvalleygolf.blogspot.com/2009/07/progression-of-16-in-photos.html)
Shot from a dune to the right of the tees.
(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h135/agolfarchitect/DSC_023316FNX_1053x700.jpg)
Green as viewed from the front left. The bowl at the front right (difficult to discern) is actually pinnable.
(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h135/agolfarchitect/DSC_0312G16Crop.jpg)
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In looking at the old picture you can see that the trees on the left just beyond the proper landing area have always been there. Soon after this picture I think palm trees were added. I don't remember a barren spot, probaby was just a poorly maintained dirt road which leads to the maintenance area. As for the green I think it probably always was level or sloping away from the tee. No doubt the bunker sand has added to that slope some.
For you superintendent types, today's green 2,800 sq. ft.
Lastly, note that the original had a large inviting opening on the right front that you would see from the tee. Temptation!
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(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Riv10.JPG)
Here is a photo, presumably by the look, taken not very long after the one Pete supplied, showing the greenside bunkers w/sand added. Interesting how the large fan bunker isn't as prevalent or noticable as it lay from the view behind. It actually is hard to tell how the hole is situated in relation to the 9th and back to the tee. It seems there are many small sappling trees there from one photo to the other, but not where you would think they should be.
It is also disorienting from Pete's photo how high above the mansions look in that era before tree growth, and the modern era. It almost looks from this photo like the mansions on the hill were taken down and the hill was cut down 50ft.
(http://theitinerantgolfer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Riviera-Country-Club-Hole-10-1-copy.jpg)
I've only seen the Riv once, but comparison photos of the same hole (the 10th) over the years has me disoriented.
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Whose idea was it to plant all those trees at Riviera ?
(http://www.geoffshackelford.com/storage/Riveira10th1927.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1329285098689)
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Thanks Tony, that is a great looking hole. I must confess I would not have caught them being cousins if you had not said so. you did make a lot of changes.