Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on January 04, 2012, 11:18:15 AM
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Using a basis of 10,000 rounds per year with overnight stay income that offsets the loss on food service.
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I don't know about should, but it could be...
maintenance expense
golf capital budget
facility capital
lodging and club expenses
service salaries
a little profit
$150
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I don't know about should, but it could be...
maintenance expense
golf capital budget
facility capital
lodging and club expenses
service salaries
a little profit
$150
Mike,
Why can't it be done for less than "One Million Dollars"? I chose Ballyneal, not only because it is topical, but because it is the model of simple excellence.
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.
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Why does food and beverage have to be a loser? Plenty of people make a living in the f&b business. The best idea I ever saw was a club that leased its restaurant space to a local restauranteur. The club had a guaranteed income, and none of the hassels of running the joint. The food was great and reasonably priced. I would suppose the restauranteur made money, they operated there for years.
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The amount that maintains that 10,000 rounds, if that is their goal.
When Kemper Lakes 1st opened, they were formualting the greens fee. They figured x number of rounds at $20 would achieve their goals. My father thought that would be too much wear and tear on the new course and suggested the steep price of $25/round. His logic was they wouldn't lose 20% of X players and they could spread out the tee times from 8 to 10 minutes. It worked and they actually made more money that 1st year AND had a bigger reserve for maintenance/repairs.
John, I think it is hard to come up with a number if you don't know more aspects of current expenses and the owners goals.
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Why do you assume there is no debt? They bought the note from the bank (eliminating bank debt) but there still is the debt.
I'm told there is a meeting with the 100+ members this month to outline how the club will move forward. I'm anxious to hear the strategy.
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John
I believe 10,000 rounds is way too high for B'neal. Not enough beds/too short a season. Guessing its high by a factor of 2x-2.5x. Dismal has 2x the beds as B'neal.
Both F&B and lodging are a profit centers. F&B mrginally so, primarily due to the captive audience and higher costs of supply due to remoteness.
Your cost per round is near the ball park, probably within $100 either way depending how dues are factored. Since we charge for all day play, we don't pay as much attention to rounds. 54 holes is the same for us as 18. Better measure for us (and probably Bandon) is lodging nights. Butts in beds is the key.
I don't mind sharing this - it is what it is. Be careful of the sacred cows.
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Why do you assume there is no debt? They bought the note from the bank (eliminating bank debt) but there still is the debt.
I'm told there is a meeting with the 100+ members this month to outline how the club will move forward. I'm anxious to hear the strategy.
Is Ballyneal out of foreclosure? That would be great news.
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How much would a Limited Partnership set you back in this new venture?
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Don't forget to allow for absorption of rater comps ;D
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If you play as many rounds as Colton, about $0.50/hole...
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Mike,
Why can't it be done for less than "One Million Dollars"? I chose Ballyneal, not only because it is topical, but because it is the model of simple excellence.
I bet Don could run the whole place for $500k or similar
How many square feet of buildings - not golf maintenance
I don't know how much it costs to maintain the other stuff
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I don't mind sharing this - it is what it is. Be careful of the sacred cows.
What does your last comment mean?
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Perhaps he meant this?
(http://www.flixya.com/files-photo/n/u/b/nubelly2316711.jpg)
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Mike,
Why can't it be done for less than "One Million Dollars"? I chose Ballyneal, not only because it is topical, but because it is the model of simple excellence.
I bet Don could run the whole place for $500k or similar
How many square feet of buildings - not golf maintenance
I don't know how much it costs to maintain the other stuff
Mike - Fully agree Don is both terrific and efficient. With both resortlike lodging and F&B, the base costs are much higher.
I would guess the debt alone (interest or amortized) could cost somewhere between $50-$100 per round played. In this environment, debt.
Kalen - I love that photo!
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I was curious what it would cost to maintain a perfect walking only course in a remote location. I can't imagine that I'm the only one who thought about buying Ballyneal for the right price and owning one of the great golf courses in the world. Lucky for me, I quickly threw up in my mouth, and came to my senses. I just know that it can't be done for as little as I hoped, I was looking for some reasons why.
I think the reality of the situation is that 99% of us are having our golf subsidized by others and don't even realize it.
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Mike,
Why can't it be done for less than "One Million Dollars"? I chose Ballyneal, not only because it is topical, but because it is the model of simple excellence.
I bet Don could run the whole place for $500k or similar
How many square feet of buildings - not golf maintenance
I don't know how much it costs to maintain the other stuff
Mike - Fully agree Don is both terrific and efficient. With both resortlike lodging and F&B, the base costs are much higher.
I would guess the debt alone (interest or amortized) could cost somewhere between $50-$100 per round played. In this environment, debt.
Kalen - I love that photo!
Chris,
I'm a bit puzzled.
In an earlier post, you stated both lodging and Food and beverage were profit centers. (which I find shocking, but I digress)
If they're profit centers, how do they contribute to higher "base costs" (by which I assume you mean higher operating costs) on a net basis.
Did you mean they were "revenue centers"?
I also realise that you can't seperate the two as one cannot exist without the other in a remote location.
Thanks,
Jeff
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Jeff - You are correct. They are indeed profit centers. Both also consume alot of seasonal capital as bioth have their own fixed costs, including staffing and energy. Kind of like buying for the pro shop. Money upfront to reap later. I was referring to only the cost side needed to produce the revenue.
Hope it helps.
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Jeff - You are correct. They are indeed profit centers. Both also consume alot of seasonal capital as bioth have their own fixed costs, including staffing and energy. Kind of like buying for the pro shop. Money upfront to reap later. I was referring to only the cost side needed to produce the revenue.
Hope it helps.
Well I don't think I can be right because i doubted they were profit centers ;D
but, if I'm understanding you right, and F &B and lodging are profit centers, (let's say small) then the only expense left is the golf operation and golf course(and grounds) maintenance.---no?
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Nope. We don't allocate overhead (taxes, Insurance, energy, etc) over F&B and lodging so there is more than just the course left.
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Nope. We don't allocate overhead (taxes, Insurance, energy, etc) over F&B and lodging so there is more than just the course left.
That being the case, I'm going to go with my original thesis.
F&B and lodging are revenue centers, not profit centers ;D ;D
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Thesis away, my friend. Thesis away.
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Nope. We don't allocate overhead (taxes, Insurance, energy, etc) over F&B and lodging so there is more than just the course left.
That being the case, I'm going to go with my original thesis.
F&B and lodging are revenue centers, not profit centers ;D ;D
Jeff,
Go with me sometime to Dismal and I can show you how Food and Beverage becomes a profit center. Now I consider this a good thing, but somebody ain't gonna make it home one of these days. I thought we lost my Amish buddy earlier this year.
note: When you are over 50 and on a buddy trip if there isn't a shot a dying you may as well stay home.
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That being the case, I'm going to go with my original thesis.
F&B and lodging are revenue centers, not profit centers ;D ;D
In my experience, all the people who think private club F&B is a profit center fail to include significant portions of the fixed cost in their calculations.
At my club there are a 10-12 people who have been involved with management or the board who firmly believe that, "Food and beverage subsidizes the golf course." As a consequence, the place was taken by the bank and now belongs to a new owner.
Their calculations of F&B profits never included any of these costs: The cost of owning and maintaining dining room and kitchen; Insurance; Real estate taxes; utilities, etc., etc.
I would imagine that any restaurant owner who was given a free building with no utility bill would find his bottom line enhanced considerably.
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Nope. We don't allocate overhead (taxes, Insurance, energy, etc) over F&B and lodging so there is more than just the course left.
That being the case, I'm going to go with my original thesis.
F&B and lodging are revenue centers, not profit centers ;D ;D
Jeff,
Go with me sometime to Dismal and I can show you how Food and Beverage becomes a profit center. Now I consider this a good thing, but somebody ain't gonna make it home one of these days. I thought we lost my Amish buddy earlier this year.
note: When you are over 50 and on a buddy trip if there isn't a shot a dying you may as well stay home.
Can you see all the wives pulling out the life insurance policies making sure that the premiums are paid before their husbands get on the "Highway to Hell" bus to take them on the golf trip of a lifetime. The Last Straw With Kavanaugh buddy trip would of course have a betting line in Vegas with odds varying from how many return to how did they meet their maker. Kav-please send me the itinerary because I`m in my fifties and I`m sick of playing it safe.
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Simply brilliant Tim!
"Can you see all the wives pulling out the life insurance policies making sure that the premiums are paid before their husbands get on the "Highway to Hell" bus to take them on the golf trip of a lifetime. The Last Straw With Kavanaugh buddy trip would of course have a betting line in Vegas with odds varying from how many return to how did they meet their maker. Kav-please send me the itinerary because I`m in my fifties and I`m sick of playing it safe."
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Nope. We don't allocate overhead (taxes, Insurance, energy, etc) over F&B and lodging so there is more than just the course left.
That being the case, I'm going to go with my original thesis.
F&B and lodging are revenue centers, not profit centers ;D ;D
Jeff,
Go with me sometime to Dismal and I can show you how Food and Beverage becomes a profit center. Now I consider this a good thing, but somebody ain't gonna make it home one of these days. I thought we lost my Amish buddy earlier this year.
note: When you are over 50 and on a buddy trip if there isn't a shot a dying you may as well stay home.
John,
That indeed is a scary thought....
But if the bar opens at 8 am,you're on.
Typically I come close to death on buddy trips, but usually closest about my third day home.....
but then I'm not quite "over" 50 yet.
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Nope. We don't allocate overhead (taxes, Insurance, energy, etc) over F&B and lodging so there is more than just the course left.
That being the case, I'm going to go with my original thesis.
F&B and lodging are revenue centers, not profit centers ;D ;D
Jeff,
Go with me sometime to Dismal and I can show you how Food and Beverage becomes a profit center. Now I consider this a good thing, but somebody ain't gonna make it home one of these days. I thought we lost my Amish buddy earlier this year.
note: When you are over 50 and on a buddy trip if there isn't a shot a dying you may as well stay home.
John,
That indeed is a scary thought....
But if the bar opens at 8 am,you're on.
Typically I come close to death on buddy trips, but usually closest about my third day home.....
but then I'm not quite "over" 50 yet.
Jeff-It is tough to finesse when you get home. If you gush too much about what a great time you had you get dirty looks. If you grumble about things like weather, a bad flight connection or shaggy greens you not only get dirty looks but also "then why did you go?". I like to use the what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas approach hoping only having to disclose that "it was fun". If you think getting your spouse a gift in the airport as a down card is gonna stand up it won`t-they know. You will know all this shit when you turn 50. ;)
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Tim,
I wasn't referring to my wife.
Anyone who's met her would agree that I overachieved on that one and that she's got the patience of a saint.
Besides, these are "business" trips ;).
Day three home is just when all the "business" catches up to me physically.
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That being the case, I'm going to go with my original thesis.
F&B and lodging are revenue centers, not profit centers ;D ;D
In my experience, all the people who think private club F&B is a profit center fail to include significant portions of the fixed cost in their calculations.
At my club there are a 10-12 people who have been involved with management or the board who firmly believe that, "Food and beverage subsidizes the golf course." As a consequence, the place was taken by the bank and now belongs to a new owner.
Their calculations of F&B profits never included any of these costs: The cost of owning and maintaining dining room and kitchen; Insurance; Real estate taxes; utilities, etc., etc.
I would imagine that any restaurant owner who was given a free building with no utility bill would find his bottom line enhanced considerably.
Lots of clubs also don't include some full time staff - catering manager, receptionist, etc. Anything to disguise the true cost (and losses!).
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Using a basis of 10,000 rounds per year with overnight stay income that offsets the loss on food service.
I find it hard to believe the accommodation income combined with the F&B could break even with so few rounds. I haven't seen the place but my understanding is its a first class operation. Seems to me at 10,000 rounds it's pretty empty most of the time?
Is it open year round or seasonal, I would think that part of Colorado could be year round.
Not counting any return on capital and the assumption of no debt payments, I would find it hard to believe yet could operate the club operations,, maintain the accommodations, operate the F&B as well as operate the accommodations, maintain the golf course in top condition, provide capital for maintanence and upkeep of the entire place for less than 1.5 million?
While I am not familiar with the regional differences to i do have an idea of the cost to operate a run of e mill club in upstate NY not counting debt and return on capital some of the costs I could guess for Ballyneal would be: these are educated guesses but without having seen it personally I may be off.
Property taxes $30,000. I certainly imagine Colorado is a fraction of that
Property and operational insurances $60,0000
Heat, AC and electric $80,0000
Greens budget including staff. $500,000 not sure what the course type and regional differences are but that wasn't enough at my club doesn't include any capital improvements, new equipment ect.
Pro staff high quality Pro, at two assistants and bag help, range pickets ect. $180000
F&B, maintenance staff, house keeping, admin GM $300,000
Walking club so no cart revenue or ownership costs.
Any caddy costs carried by the club?
I am over a million already and haven't accounted for many other things like what seems to me as likely hospitality losses.
I certainly am not an expert and would be very interested in hearing from other opinions but I can't fathom the break even round cost being less than $150 / round and that is with no debt service or return on capital or profit.
The place had to cost 5 million to build? Maybe much higher?
Dan
I certainly want to pay the place a visit if it stays alive.
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Using a basis of 10,000 rounds per year with overnight stay income that offsets the loss on food service.
I find it hard to believe the accommodation income combined with the F&B could break even with so few rounds. I haven't seen the place but my understanding is its a first class operation. Seems to me at 10,000 rounds it's pretty empty most of the time?
Is it open year round or seasonal, I would think that part of Colorado could be year round.
Not counting any return on capital and the assumption of no debt payments, I would find it hard to believe yet could operate the club operations,, maintain the accommodations, operate the F&B as well as operate the accommodations, maintain the golf course in top condition, provide capital for maintanence and upkeep of the entire place for less than 1.5 million?
While I am not familiar with the regional differences to i do have an idea of the cost to operate a run of e mill club in upstate NY not counting debt and return on capital some of the costs I could guess for Ballyneal would be: these are educated guesses but without having seen it personally I may be off.
Property taxes $30,000. I certainly imagine Colorado is a fraction of that
Property and operational insurances $60,0000
Heat, AC and electric $80,0000
Greens budget including staff. $500,000 not sure what the course type and regional differences are but that wasn't enough at my club doesn't include any capital improvements, new equipment ect.
Pro staff high quality Pro, at two assistants and bag help, range pickets ect. $180000
F&B, maintenance staff, house keeping, admin GM $300,000
Walking club so no cart revenue or ownership costs.
Any caddy costs carried by the club?
I am over a million already and haven't accounted for many other things like what seems to me as likely hospitality losses.
I certainly am not an expert and would be very interested in hearing from other opinions but I can't fathom the break even round cost being less than $150 / round and that is with no debt service or return on capital or profit.
The place had to cost 5 million to build? Maybe much higher?
Dan
I certainly want to pay the place a visit if it stays alive.
Dan,
Thank you for the amazing post. Just one correction. You will play when it stays alive.
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I hope that is the case with all the positive things people around here have to say about it I can't imagine a new business plan or financial restructuring doesn't occur but I don't know enough about the details to say. I wish them the best and as a u of Colorado grad I might consider a national type of membership for myself.
While farmland has been rising significantly in value I can't imagine with all the money already sunk in that anything but a golf course makes sense?
I look forward to hearing about its resurrection.
Dan
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Dan,
Food, Beverage and Lodging are a necessary evil in such a remote locale, although I agree the chances of it being a profit center are slim to none. I'd take the over at 5mm and give odds...It all comes down to what they paid for the bank note...
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;,;
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Dan,
Food, Beverage and Lodging are a necessary evil in such a remote locale, although I agree the chances of it being a profit center are slim to none. I'd take the over at 5mm and give odds...It all comes down to what they paid for the bank note...
I assume based on location the members who are not local encamp there on visits and spend, just seems based on 10,000 rounds there just is not enough of them on a day to day basis to generate enough revenue. 10,000 rounds is only 27 people 365 days a year. Not going to be able to sustain a upscale lodging or any significant F&B on that amount of trafic. Out of the 10,000 rounds how much is day triping locals or within 2 hour members?
If the lodging was always filled to capacity that would change things quite a bit. Of course on the the over 5 million there isn't much chance for the place to provide any return IMHO.
I know it has been viewed in bad taste to discuss the particulars as I am guessing some of the GCA brethren are involved with the place beyond members? I just always find the knowledge interesting and potentially educational.
So I don't know enough about the building of the place nor original business plan but as you mention it's now all about what the asset/note is now costs after the restructuring. That provides a new opportunity to keep the same business plan with much less debt or devise a new business plan.
I had discussed in other threads that there is only so much potential customers for such a remote golf course membership and several were already established before this one was built and to the best of my knowledge remain strong but as a later arrival and in a difficult economic environment even though it's a wonderful place by all accounts makes it tough to make it. I wonder if they could have the large number of national members type of thing at a reasonable dues level as opposed to a high initiation and high dues limited membership business plan.
I hope they make it and have a great future. I look forward to hearing the new plan!
Dan
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Dan:
I have never seen the balance sheet, but I do not think that Ballyneal or Dismal River has ever received 10,000 rounds of play in a year to date. I'm not even sure that Sand Hills has. There are days out there where you can play in nearly every month of the year, but I believe that Sand Hills Golf Club is only open from late May through early October -- five months max. The rest of the year, it costs more to staff it every day than you'd generate in revenue on average.
All of these clubs can only exist because there are a group of people passionate enough about the golf to want to subsidize their existence. It is a somewhat hardscrabble existence ... but such is life in the sand hills. And that's a beautiful thing.
Thank God for the people who have supported these clubs. They're all special places, and I'm confident that they will all somehow continue to exist. But it wouldn't hurt for a few more passionate people to go ahead and join them!
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Is Ballyneal open for play?
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.
Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
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Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
Jay: It's completely egalitarian. Everyone has to pay a lot. If there are not enough people who value the experience and can afford it, then there will be problems.
But, let's think for a minute. How much did you pay just to arrive at the door of Dismal River? Did you fly from NY, and rent a car in Denver? What did that all cost? Considering those costs, the per-round rate is actually higher ... but the more rounds you play, the more sense it makes.
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As Tom states, these sand/chop hill courses are about passion on the part of golfers, builders and owners. While money is always important it is a secondary consideration in these cases as I expect folks are just looking to get by. I think the model is a bit unusual in that getting by is usually associated with modest courses of which few are of any interest to the sort of folks we are talking about in Nebraska and Colorado. Its a roll of the dice model in the hopes that world class golf will be enough to sustain clubs which on the surface have no business ever being built. I find this sort of model immensely appealing, unfortunately, even if I were in a position to geographically take advantage, I highly doubt would. I fear that like me, too many folks would look at the set-up from a realist (what the heck is the golf costing me per game and is this where I want to spend all my golf holidays?) PoV rather than from a passionate PoV, but then the folks involved in these organizations knew from the start that over-coming this attitude was the key to success.
On a flip note, it is interesting to try and compare some of the remote UK courses (Machrie & Askernish) which may not be of the same quality in terms of golf, lodging and services as the Neb/Col clubs, but are very special places and in a true sense trying to get by - with mixed results. These are far cheaper options to buy into and I suspect far cheaper to actually get to for most in the UK compared to most of this in the US trying to get to Neb/Col. Yet, we see them struggling. Is there a happy medium between the two models which would be more attractive for more golfers?
Ciao
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.
Jay,
Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
Jay,
Of course no one actually pays $500 per round. Chris subsidizes the member, the members subsidize their guests. Put on your big boy pants and do some math. You've been to Dismal, figure what you think it costs to keep that place open for a year and divide it by the number of rounds you feel are played. That is the cost per round I was looking for.
Now it is my understanding that after you overpaid at Dismal you went over to Sand Hills and asked to play there. They did not have room that day but still allowed you to go take in a view from Ben's porch. I doubt if they charged you for that privilege and ate the costs of providing you the infrastructure you took advantage of that day. Even though you didn't play you were subsidized by the members of Sand Hills during your visit.
One more thing,
I'm going to go to Dismal three or four times this year for lets say a total of ten playing days. Would anyone really expect my dues, lodging, food and beverage to be less than $5000 for the year? Now you guys may be shocked but who wouldn't pay $5000 a year to be a member of Sand Hills if that included golf, food and beverage and lodging? It's actually not that bad of a deal.
For a guy like Jay, who I understand doesn't own a car, I think it is like paying $2.50 per mile to take a cab. Everyone knows that $2.50 a mile it is to much for transport by car but it is there when you need it and fills an important void in your life.
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.
Jay,
Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
For a guy like Jay, who I understand doesn't own a car, I think it is like paying $2.50 per mile to take a cab. Everyone knows that $2.50 a mile it is to much for transport by car but it is there when you need it and fills an important void in your life.
Very good analogy John.
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These threads should be banned. Calculating cost per round at any club (especially national memberships) is a great way to ruin someone's fiscally responsible day. The good news is, there is no better feeling than the drive into your destination club after a long absence.
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I'm guessing Colton isn't paying $500/round. It all comes down to your own utility function. There are guys who will happily pay $5000/year just to say they belong and might get out once a year for a couple rounds and there are guys who live far away who get 50+ rounds/year in. It takes a village. Funny how $400 per round at a local upscale club is no big deal but somehow it's an abomination when you only get a dozen rounds a year in on a couple visits to a National Club.
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Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
Jay: It's completely egalitarian. Everyone has to pay a lot.
Now Tom, that's a backwards argument. Just because something is expensive to everyone doesn't mean we have to accept it. If we took that argument to a further extent, there's be a lot less people playing golf than now because it's to expensive.
As for that trip, it was a week of golf in CO/Neb w/ friends so costs were somewhat amortized, but excepting one course out of the 9 we played, the next most expensive round that trip was something like $65-$75...and Dismal isn't 5x better than most other other courses I've played anywhere, let alone on that trip. Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.
Jay,
Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
Jay,
Of course no one actually pays $500 per round. Chris subsidizes the member, the members subsidize their guests. Put on your big boy pants and do some math. You've been to Dismal, figure what you think it costs to keep that place open for a year and divide it by the number of rounds you feel are played. That is the cost per round I was looking for.
Now it is my understanding that after you overpaid at Dismal you went over to Sand Hills and asked to play there. They did not have room that day but still allowed you to go take in a view from Ben's porch. I doubt if they charged you for that privilege and ate the costs of providing you the infrastructure you took advantage of that day. Even though you didn't play you were subsidized by the members of Sand Hills during your visit.
One more thing,
I'm going to go to Dismal three or four times this year for lets say a total of ten playing days. Would anyone really expect my dues, lodging, food and beverage to be less than $5000 for the year? Now you guys may be shocked but who wouldn't pay $5000 a year to be a member of Sand Hills if that included golf, food and beverage and lodging? It's actually not that bad of a deal.
For a guy like Jay, who I understand doesn't own a car, I think it is like paying $2.50 per mile to take a cab. Everyone knows that $2.50 a mile it is to much for transport by car but it is there when you need it and fills an important void in your life.
John Kavanaugh, I MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT ask to play Sand Hills. We finished at Dismal and Adam drove me over so we could have soda on Ben's porch and that's it. And of course I own a car. Where do you get these ridiculous lies? (Let alone believe them). As you can see everyone, the gossip going around is nothing more than BS. If you believe half the crap these trolls say about me, then you probably believe 4x the amount that's actually true. There's no low they won't stoop to in order to try to suppress my participation on this BB. John, Please do not spread rumors that are flat-out not true. In this case, you should be more ashamed of yourself than usual, but knowing you I won't expect it. I'll tolerate your being a rakehell , but I won't tolerate your lying about me. It sure must be nice never having to grow up.
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I'm guessing Colton isn't paying $500/round. It all comes down to your own utility function. There are guys who will happily pay $5000/year just to say they belong and might get out once a year for a couple rounds and there are guys who live far away who get 50+ rounds/year in. It takes a village. Funny how $400 per round at a local upscale club is no big deal but somehow it's an abomination when you only get a dozen rounds a year in on a couple visits to a National Club.
Throw in my sunk costs and I'm probably close to twice that. Maybe (probably) I'm just a fool, but I'd still say it was worth every penny. Plus I have Tom D's respect. At least I got that going for me.
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.
Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
When you start putting a dollar figure on it, you've missed the point.
::) ::)
It may've been a $350 day for you, but I'd bet most members of high end destination clubs would settle for their rounds to average out to $350 per round they play.
I'm reminded of when one of our members asked our unaccomapanied fee because his buddies wanted him to sponsor a group.
When I told him he balked.
"That's too much to ask my buddies to pay"
I then asked him how many rounds he played last year.
He said about 30
I explained that his buddies were playing for about 30 % of what his per round average cost was (not including him usually picking up guest and caddie fees)
"When you put it like that, those assholes are getting a bargain" was his reply
If you really want to put a dollar figure on it, add in the airfare, lodging, meals etc. etc.
For that matter a round overseas in the UK could run $200-$1000 per round, depending on #of rounds played,airfare, Hotel ,ground transport, caddie etc.
I'm amazed when Americans complain that Uk fees are too high for certain PRIVATE clubs.
No one is putting a gun to your head and there are PLENTY of better value options, but remember no matter where you play overseas, you're already in it for a certain $$$ figure due to the price of getting and staying there.
there are always cheaper options on both sides of the pond, fortunately for those who enjoy destination clubs, there are members who support them.
I don't think Dismal was conceived to "promote golf to the masses" or "egalitarion" (whatever that means)
::)
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Now Tom, that's a backwards argument. Just because something is expensive to everyone doesn't mean we have to accept it. If we took that argument to a further extent, there's be a lot less people playing golf than now because it's to expensive.
As for that trip, it was a week of golf in CO/Neb w/ friends to costs were somewhat amortized, but the next most expensive round that trip was something like $65...and Dismal isn't 5x better than most other other courses I've played anywhere, let alone on that trip. Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.
Who said a private club in the middle of nowhere Nebraska has to promote the game to the masses? Shouldn't it just have to provide a valued experience to its members and their guests? As long as there are enough guys willing to support it and make it viable, that should be enough.
The thing about Ballyneal is it doesn't have to be all things to all people. As long as there are 150 or so guys who "get it", it'll be just fine.
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Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.
The price point was too high only in the sense that the market would no longer support it. There's a place for decent fun courses that are a great value and open to anyone with a wifebeater, a pair of ripped jeans, a garbage bag full of malt liquor and $20 bucks in rolled up quarters. Fortunately there's also a place for places like Ballyneal. (Wait for it....)
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When you factor in dues, travel, F & B, caddies, and lodging, $675-$700 per round played had been historically pretty accurate for me in the past at Ballyneal (I'm guessing 15 rounds per year on average). I still think it's the greatest place on earth (next to Disney World). Like Colton said, worth every penny. Some people would certainly have a lower average cost, and some would certainly be much higher.
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It would be really helpful if you could provide the per round cost at Dismal River. Nice to have more than one data point.
Not sure what the proper emoticon is for sarcasm. The topic of destination course operational costs may be interesting discussion, but targeting a specific private club as an example does not seem appropriate.
I would guess the cost per round at Dismal to be around $500.
Isn't $500 just too much? Is a round at Dismal really worth that? I thought it was overpriced when I played it. It was a $350 day for me. That's not egalitarian... >:(
When you start putting a dollar figure on it, you've missed the point.
::) ::)
It may've been a $350 day for you, but I'd bet most members of high end destination clubs would settle for their rounds to average out to $350 per round they play.
I'm reminded of when one of our members asked our unaccomapanied fee because his buddies wanted him to sponsor a group.
When I told him he balked.
"That's too much to ask my buddies to pay"
I then asked him how many rounds he played last year.
He said about 30
I explained that his buddies were playing for about 30 % of what his per round average cost was (not including him usually picking up guest and caddie fees)
"When you put it like that, those assholes are getting a bargain" was his reply
If you really want to put a dollar figure on it, add in the airfare, lodging, meals etc. etc.
For that matter a round overseas in the UK could run $200-$1000 per round, depending on #of rounds played,airfare, Hotel ,ground transport, caddie etc.
I'm amazed when Americans complain that Uk fees are too high for certain PRIVATE clubs.
No one is putting a gun to your head and there are PLENTY of better value options, but remember no matter where you play overseas, you're already in it for a certain $$$ figure due to the price of getting and staying there.
there are always cheaper options on both sides of the pond, fortunately for those who enjoy destination clubs, there are members who support them.
I
Jeff really encapsulates a great post in his last sentence. I really don`t see how you attempt to attach a dollar amount to the experience provided by a destination club like Dismal or Ballyneal. There are some things in life that you just can`t or should not put a price on.
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Jay,
So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then? What guest fee did you pay? And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Who said this a zero-sum game? I can and will support both groups.
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Jay,
So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then? What guest fee did you pay? And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?
Jud, don't miss my point. I think that $350/round is too much for anywhere, public or private. Others may or may not agree. But so what? It's probably an issue with a different answer to every individual.
How much do YOU think is too much?
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I agree that $350 will price quite a few people out of the equation. I'd venture that that's what most guys are paying on average at the nicer private clubs in your neck of the woods, however, if not more. It simply comes down to what's important to you and your disposable income. Personally, I put together a spreadsheet of clubs. I included my ratings and those of all the mags, GCA, Doak, etc... I also included the likely number of rounds and my average cost/round including amortized downstroke. Then I put together a weighted formula to value quality vs. price, distance, and a few other variables. Ballyneal's pretty high on the list (and with a bullet apparently), but that's because I weigh quality at least as highly as quantity.
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Jay,
So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then? What guest fee did you pay? And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?
Jud, don't miss my point. I think that $350/round is too much for anywhere, public or private. Others may or may not agree. But so what? It's probably an issue with a different answer to every individual.
How much do YOU think is too much?
So, which is it? Merely your individual price point or the picture of golf armageddon you painted in your previous post? I'm confused.
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Jay,
What did the $350 include? Lodging? I can't speak to what the fees were back when you were there, but I'm pretty sure the unaccompanied guest fees at Dismal these days are $165 during the week, $195 w/e.
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Jay,
So out of principal you've never played at an exclusive private club then? What guest fee did you pay? And how do you think that related to the average fee/round your host was paying?
Jud, don't miss my point. I think that $350/round is too much for anywhere, public or private. Others may or may not agree. But so what? It's probably an issue with a different answer to every individual.
How much do YOU think is too much?
So should no hotel cost $350, no first class airfare, no large diamonds, no Broadway Show, no Super Bowl?
If no round can cost $350, how would Friar's head, Sebonack, the Bridge, east hampton ever be built where FARMLAND is $200,000/acre?
Should they not be built because it exceeds your $350 #?
The family'down the street" can play the muni/public "down the street"
I don't understand what that has to do with Dismal or Ballyneal.
I just got my invoice for Sag Harbor GC (as muni as it gets).
there's room for both kinds of places, and I'm sure Ballyneal and Dismal do their own philanthropy without including a plan for affordable golf for the masses, which would be highly impractical as there are no masses there.
Should they not have been built either?
If I set up my buddies at Palmetto(or worse yet they arranged it through the pro) and they reported back on a public forum that it was not worth it, they certainly would be off my list for Augusta (or Sand Hills ) invites.
If all these courses built in remote or expensive areas exceed your idea of what golf should cost and they don't get built, please don't send them all to Sag Harbor GC ;) ;)
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Jud
It would be interesting to see your course analysis. A lot more interesting than reading about someones views on what too much per a roynd of golf is and how irresponsible high priced clubs are :P
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As discussed per round cost is not a good measure for a destination course. My thoughts are clubs like this are about one to several trips annually. Maybe with a friends for a member guest, a several day long trip with a bunch of friends, like 2-3 foursomes. Perhaps a solo vist. For a member event, a trip where members coordinate to be there.
What does the club do to encourage a membership experience for someone like me who doesn't personally know any members or GCA folks but is intrigued with being the idea of such a membership.
While I can join and coordinate a trip with a bunch of my friends. To get me there more often (spending money) their needs to be a way to get me meeting the membership. Member guest tournaments are great for this.
In the end to me a place like this needs to pay the bills on dues, if lodging, F&B can turn a profit all the better.
So I think a better question as opposed to cost per round how many members do they need to operationally break even? Seems to me your looking at 200 at 10k annually to make it work, or some iteration of that.
While their are certainly 200 people with the means, some of the potential population already has membership at other similar economic cost destination clubs that are already financially stable?
It's a tough thing because while it's desirable it's expensive and because it's a passion business model the risk of financial trouble is higher which causes caution regarding significant initiation fees.
I haven't played either Sand Hills, Dismal nor Ballyneal nor too familiar with thier respective differences but would people rather be a member at SandHills if it was offered to them or one of other clubs? Just seems they have already reached financial stability?
Dan
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I am not trying to be rude as I know Ballyneal is a touchy subject but is the problem that the building costs were not able to be amortized or is it even the operational costs weren't supported by the membership level? Or both?
I know much of this discussion is what is fair or acceptable prices, private clubs rarely meet any level of such value, destination clubs even less so. It about a quality place to go to get away and enjoy a phenomenal golf experience, hopefully meet new friends and enjoy our passion in a different form.
I mostly am interested as I hope to see the place thrive once it's reorganized as well as learn more about the business of operating a club.
If its purely a can't handle the debt problem that very different than whether they have or can attract a membership in order to cover operational costs.
Dan
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If I set up my buddies at Palmetto(or worse yet they arranged it through the pro) and they reported back on a public forum that it was not worth it, they certainly would be off my list for Augusta (or Sand Hills ) invites.
If all these courses built in remote or expensive areas exceed your idea of what golf should cost and they don't get built, please don't send them all to Sag Harbor GC ;) ;)
Go ahead and add my name when they fall off the list ;D.
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Jay- One thing I know is that regardless of your version of how the game should be and what is too much to pay for a round of golf it has absolutely nothing to do with the intrinsic value that one places on the experience at Dismal or Ballyneal. Are there a lot of family`s down the street from Dismal that have been excluded? Come on man.
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IF you have to look at the cost, then it costs too much for you. It is only a love of the golf out there that is relavant.
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All:
This is a very good thread. Looks like the questions are centered around value, and each of us sees that differently.
Places Ballyneal and Dismal River don't "cost" $350 or $500. We charge less than $175 for the day - and you can play as much as you wish. To us, that is value. The other costs are for lodging, food, purchases and fun. Like Bandon (which ain't cheap) you go there to play golf, thats most all that you do. Our lowest cost guest lodging unit is less than $110 per person. If you want to eat cheap, you can. If you want the pork chop or a dry aged steak, those cost more - just like home. We go out of our way to deliver on the experience - that is the value we provide. We begin the year with a "nut" approaching $2 million and that is without much debt. It ain't no $500k.
Many of these destination clubs are a darned good bargain - we sure don't charge much at all to join those who do also have dues that are reasonable - that is our model. They are trying to meet a market need. For me, there is nothing better than returning "home", alone or with friends, for a few days of doing what you like. There is nothing better for me than a buddy trip, playing someplace special. If that isn't what you enjoy, that's ok.
There is a difference between affordability and accessibility. There is a huge difference between dancing in the sprinkler in the backyard and going to Disney World.
The guys (and gals) who love Ballyneal, Dismal River, and Bandon Dunes have a sense of "place" and that is imprtant to them. So do the folks who commit to clubs everywhere. That is a good thing. Having to pay $400 for a driver that costs $45 to make irks me, but I buy them. I pay $2.50 for a golf ball that costs a dime. I have an iPhone and really can't justify the cost. Same with my car, my home, and even my wife - I can't cost justify any of them.
No matter the place, each must have usage, or yield. If they were cheap, they wouldn't exist. I assume that is true for Disney, Apple, or a destination Ski resort.
Ballyneal is a great place - one of the very best. Its just hard to pay the bills if it has to be affordable. Tom D is right, we don't sniff 10,000 rounds and we have 2x the lodging space which is great when busy. I have a feeling Ballyneal will be fine if the debt gets resolved - they have people who love the place and that is the key. When they do, go out for a visit - it will be well worth the cost and effort if you like special places. If you really like, take the plunge, and join. LIke Jim, I bet you won't regret it.
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As for that trip, it was a week of golf in CO/Neb w/ friends so costs were somewhat amortized, but excepting one course out of the 9 we played, the next most expensive round that trip was something like $65-$75...and Dismal isn't 5x better than most other other courses I've played anywhere, let alone on that trip. Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.
So let me break this down. You're a GUEST of a club and you're using their GUEST fee to argue against the pricing structure of a given club? It's a private club. Their pricing structure for guests likely doesn't equate to a cost per round analysis for MEMBERSHIP costs. By the way, your guest fee at Ballyneal was certainly not $65-75, unless I'm missing something.
I hope Jim Colton would quickly dismiss me as a friend if I came on this website and publicly complained about my cost per round at Ballyneal during the events he allows me to be a part of. I hope whoever sponsored you at Dismal River does the same.
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The price point was too high only in the sense that the market would no longer support it. There's a place for decent fun courses that are a great value and open to anyone with a wifebeater, a pair of ripped jeans, a garbage bag full of malt liquor and $20 bucks in rolled up quarters. Fortunately there's also a place for places like Ballyneal. (Wait for it....)
On one hand, I resent the notion that this is the dichotomy that exists in golf, that there are those who can afford private club golf, and there are a bunch of guys in wifebeaters, jeans, etc.
On the other, though, it's clear that there are plenty of golf options available, and a course like Ballyneal shouldn't have to have some sort of egalitarian ideal in mind when they set their prices. They want to prosper, they want to attract a quality membership, and as a business they have to make the price-point decisions that they feel are best for their club.
Maybe I can't afford to join a private golf club (while at the same time not wearing a wifebeater, drinking malt liquor, etc). But I can't afford an Audi R8, either. Life does continue. But I'll say this - I've had a few opportunities to play some private club courses and for the life of me I can't remember how much I payed at any of them. It's the experience I remember.
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Well according to Twitter, it looks like Jay is planning a return trip to the region in 2012. I'm looking forward to his fresh take.
@JayGolfUSA
Jay Flemma
1st two stops of the JayGolfUSA tour this coming year - Chambers Bay/Gold Mtn and then Southern Utah with @TheGolfSpace Tony K!
18 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/JayGolfUSA/status/148595731098378241
@TheGolfSpace
Tony Korologos
@JayGolfUSA Need to do Chambers Bay!
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/TheGolfSpace/status/148777694048423937
@JayGolfUSA
Jay Flemma
@TheGolfSpace Let's do Utah first - then Colorado/Nebraska!
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/JayGolfUSA/status/148791420474503169
@JayGolfUSA
Jay Flemma
@TheGolfSpace @ballyneal Well how about Sand Hills?
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/JayGolfUSA/status/148851218972811264
@TheGolfSpace
Tony Korologos
@JayGolfUSA Wouldn't suck to stop by @ballyneal again.
19 Dec via web
https://twitter.com/#!/TheGolfSpace/status/148800545866530816
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As for that trip, it was a week of golf in CO/Neb w/ friends so costs were somewhat amortized, but excepting one course out of the 9 we played, the next most expensive round that trip was something like $65-$75...and Dismal isn't 5x better than most other other courses I've played anywhere, let alone on that trip. Is it a good place, of course, but that price point is too high to be egalitarian and promote the game to the masses.
So let me break this down. You're a GUEST of a club and you're using their GUEST fee to argue against the pricing structure of a given club? It's a private club. Their pricing structure for guests likely doesn't equate to a cost per round analysis for MEMBERSHIP costs. By the way, your guest fee at Ballyneal was certainly not $65-75, unless I'm missing something.
I hope Jim Colton would quickly dismiss me as a friend if I came on this website and publicly complained about my cost per round at Ballyneal during the events he allows me to be a part of. I hope whoever sponsored you at Dismal River does the same.
You did not break it down correctly. I was sent out there for work by one of my employers, and it was my job to express my honest opinion, which I did. Do you ban Tom Doak b/c of something he said in the Confidential Guide? Or Ron Whitten if he says a course wasn't all that great? Plus, I said Dismal was a good effort. Go read the article.
http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/the_best_new_private_course_battles_a_study_in_golf_dichotomy
As usual, gossip spreads it's own evil...
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I was sent out there for work by one of my employers.
Jay,
So it wasn't a member that sponsored you, it was the CLUB. And you still imply--on a public forum--that their fee structure is bad for golf? For the good of your employer, I hope your future access to review golf courses isn't affected by your views on private club fee structuring and its impact on the good of the game. Maybe you should just stick with opining about the courses themselves.
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They didn't SPONSOR me, I had to pay $350 total for the round and the caddie.
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I'm guessing Colton isn't paying $500/round. It all comes down to your own utility function. There are guys who will happily pay $5000/year just to say they belong and might get out once a year for a couple rounds and there are guys who live far away who get 50+ rounds/year in. It takes a village. Funny how $400 per round at a local upscale club is no big deal but somehow it's an abomination when you only get a dozen rounds a year in on a couple visits to a National Club.
Throw in my sunk costs and I'm probably close to twice that. Maybe (probably) I'm just a fool, but I'd still say it was worth every penny. Plus I have Tom D's respect. At least I got that going for me.
Think of how much it would be if you didnt play 8 rounds in a day...
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They didn't SPONSOR me, I had to pay $350 total for the round and the caddie.
Jay,
Dismal River is public access? Ballyneal too? Before lambasting how "good for the game" these PRIVATE destination clubs are, you might want to consider that they are under no obligation to allow access to you or your employer.
I am sure they would be more than happy to read an honest and justified opinion on the quality of their course and facilities. But it appears you are looking a gift horse in the mouth by writing on a public forum that you think the pricing structures are bad for golf. I'm sure you would agree that they are also under no real obligation to provide value to their subsidized GUESTS on a cost/round basis.
Jay, come on man.
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I can't read this whole thread and forgive me if I'm on the wrong page BUT. 5 years ago Jay and I paid $157.50 to play DR plus 50 for the caddie. We went to SH to look not play. I don't know what Jay paid at BN but the rate at that time was $100 plus caddie. $85 max.
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So Ben, the way GCA.com works in your mind (and others, apparently), is if someone doing the job they are being paid to do gives their honest opinion and you don't like it, you make ad hominem attacks on them (some of which are lies) and then insinuate that maybe they or their emplyer shouldn't be allowed back...even going so far as to post their future itinerary and make sinister oblique references...
That is not promoting frank discussion of architecture...in fact, it sounds suspiciously like suppressing it...
And Adam, I paid $250 + 100, not 157.50...maybe you got a better rate than I did...
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They didn't SPONSOR me, I had to pay $350 total for the round and the caddie.
Dang, Jay. How much did you pay the caddie? $350 for both sounds a bit high and I'm glad to see AC clear the numbers up. Caddies are an option at Dismal and the club doesn't set the rates. The $157.50 + $50 sounds more like it, at least today.
Ben - Like everyone else out here except Prairie Club, we are aren't public access, but do attempt to selectively accommodate limited non member sponsored play if we can. We do ask these folks to pay for the experience. This just seems a right thing on so many fronts, and is a cousin to the Scottish model. Jay is welcome back although I thought he missed it on the lack of availability of ground game options at Dismal.
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So Ben, the way GCA.com works in your mind (and others, apparently), is if someone doing the job they are being paid to do gives their honest opinion and you don't like it, you make ad hominem attacks on them (some of which are lies) and then insinuate that maybe they or their emplyer shouldn't be allowed back...even going so far as to post their future itinerary and make sinister oblique references...
That is not promoting frank discussion of architecture...in fact, it sounds suspiciously like suppressing it...
And Adam, I paid $250 + 100, not 157.50...maybe you got a better rate than I did...
Jay,
If you'll carefully read both my last post and my response to your PM to me, you'll clearly see that I have no issue with your honest assessment of a golf course or its facilities. I think there are people that actually like your take on courses and their architecture/conditioning.
But to imply--rather overtly I might add--that the pricing structure of a private destination club is bad for golf and its members don't care about the future of golf is RTJ II-ish at best. You don't see a difference in the two?
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That is not promoting frank discussion of architecture...in fact, it sounds suspiciously like suppressing it...
Pretty much none of this discussion has been about architecture at all.
Jay, the only way a place like Ballyneal or Dismal River will be built is if somebody is willing to put up the money to play them. If they charged $100 a round or less, like you want them to, there is no way they'd survive. So are you saying they shouldn't be built? Or are you just complaining about the reality of golf course development?
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*edit*
Sorry Jay. The only number I got wrong was how many years ago it was. It was in '06 and that was 6 years ago. Numbers are my life and I remember It perfectly. They told us both it was $150 plus a 5% service fee.
That included the caddie fee, but we were responsible for the tip.
Their phone lines were down, so we payed after the round with plastic. We discussed how weird it was to charge a 5% service fee.
I remember it so well, because it was the first time since I was 12, that I left the house without cash.
The caddie was a Scot, and believed me when I told him I would mail the $50 check, the following day. Which I did. Do I need to produce the old check, for you to believe me?
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Jay,
Take a step back and don't just argue because you're a lawyer. Why would a group of guys including Jim Colton and Tom Doak be arguing you so vehemently? Is it because you've touched a nerve or--more likely--that you've ran aground of the consequences of a ridiculous assertion?
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Thank you Chris, I appreciate it deeply. I can't wait to see the changes made and to tour the new site. I also am glad that we can agree to disagree on opinions on architecture without people savaging the person expressing an honest opinion.
I never said Dismal wasn't good. I never said not to go play it. All I said was I felt that with regard to what I paid - 250 + 50 caddie fee and a $50 tip = $350, that I've seen much better value in golf - that's all.
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That is not promoting frank discussion of architecture...in fact, it sounds suspiciously like suppressing it...
Pretty much none of this discussion has been about architecture at all.
Jay, the only way a place like Ballyneal or Dismal River will be built is if somebody is willing to put up the money to play them. If they charged $100 a round or less, like you want them to, there is no way they'd survive. So are you saying they shouldn't be built? Or are you just complaining about the reality of golf course development?
No Tom I'm not saying that at all!!! All I am saying is $350 is a lot to shell out for 5 hrs. Nothing more nothing less. I have an answer to your question, but I have no inclination to share it here because every word I am saying is being twisted by others and I have other urgent priorities with regard to my writing gig. We can talk about it off list. For those of you that wanted to chase me off the discussion, congrats, you did it...now go get your congratulations from the rest of the "we hate Jay also" crowd...
Ben, I disagree with your position.
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Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Who said this a zero-sum game? I can and will support both groups.
Ben, getting back to the topic, I'm still waiting for an answer to this one.
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Jay - I love the diversity of opinion here and have absolutely no problem with yours. btw, the windmill on #4 was there long before the course. Jack probably used it rather than planting a tree which would have really been a bad fit...since we have no trees at all. And, #10 is one of the most member loved and favorite holes, but it certainly is a unique approach to a 150 yard hole. Maybe its an acquired taste.
For the record, Jay does make a very valid point. I have no doubt he was charged what he recalls as he played here years ago - it was a very different time and the price was above what I believe was proper. I would have been unimpressed too and given the value equation a D-. He is also correct that rates like that very much set back Dismal River, just like the high cost to join hurt Ballyneal in this economy.
Tom, as usual, is correct. Or, at least I agree with him. This thread certainly does relate to architecture as, in order for quality architecture to flourish, the underlying business must succeed. This may be the crux of any thread on the future. In a short 5 month season, the economics are not easy. Thats why the experience must be top notch and that is why this thread has value.
Kudos to Mr. Kavanaugh for beginning this one.
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Jay,
Of course you disagree with my position. You have to justify your existence, right? My point is simply that you failed to take into account many individuals when you say "...if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, its bad for the game."
For example, Brad Klein has been known to write some pointed pieces on certain golf courses out there. But he writes on golf architecture. Writing publicly that a private destination club's pricing structure is bad for the game is crossing a line and makes you--as the writer of a piece that gives press to said club--somewhat suspect in credibility. How can you go on a trip to play the golf course, give it a spot in your mag or blog with a photograph or two, and then say its bad for the game because it prices out certain demographics? Of course it prices out a demographic, its a private club!
Sand Hills, Ballyneal, and Dismal River's pricing structures are a blip on the radar screen of golf in terms of efficiency, affordability, and the ambiguous term of "family golf." However, I bet their respective memberships have done more for a bright future for public "Joe Blow"golf than every golf blog combined.
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The price point was too high only in the sense that the market would no longer support it. There's a place for decent fun courses that are a great value and open to anyone with a wifebeater, a pair of ripped jeans, a garbage bag full of malt liquor and $20 bucks in rolled up quarters. Fortunately there's also a place for places like Ballyneal. (Wait for it....)
On one hand, I resent the notion that this is the dichotomy that exists in golf, that there are those who can afford private club golf, and there are a bunch of guys in wifebeaters, jeans, etc.
On the other, though, it's clear that there are plenty of golf options available, and a course like Ballyneal shouldn't have to have some sort of egalitarian ideal in mind when they set their prices. They want to prosper, they want to attract a quality membership, and as a business they have to make the price-point decisions that they feel are best for their club.
Maybe I can't afford to join a private golf club (while at the same time not wearing a wifebeater, drinking malt liquor, etc). But I can't afford an Audi R8, either. Life does continue. But I'll say this - I've had a few opportunities to play some private club courses and for the life of me I can't remember how much I payed at any of them. It's the experience I remember.
Kirk,
Couple of points:
1. Most likely you can afford to join a private golf club, it's just a question of which one. There are some that are cheaper than dirt, although they may not be around the corner or make golf dorks have to run out and buy a fresh pair of boxers.
2. It's best not to get one's panties in a bunch over comments from a jaded middle aged internet hack with flashbacks and a warped sense of humor.
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Jay,
Of course you disagree with my position. You have to justify your existence, right? My point is simply that you failed to take into account many individuals when you say "...if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, its bad for the game."
For example, Brad Klein has been known to write some pointed pieces on certain golf courses out there. But he writes on golf architecture. Writing publicly that a private destination club's pricing structure is bad for the game is crossing a line and makes you--as the writer of a piece that gives press to said club--somewhat suspect in credibility. How can you go on a trip to play the golf course, give it a spot in your mag or blog with a photograph or two, and then say its bad for the game because it prices out certain demographics? Of course it prices out a demographic, its a private club!
Sand Hills, Ballyneal, and Dismal River's pricing structures are a blip on the radar screen of golf in terms of efficiency, affordability, and the ambiguous term of "family golf." However, I bet their respective memberships have done more for a bright future for public "Joe Blow"golf than every golf blog combined.
Ben, with great respect, after the things that were done and said on this thread, I won't discuss it again. Sorry, but you guys went way overboard for me to see any reason to engage in conversation with you about it.
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This thread is a joke. Complete with Ballyneal rumor mongering, Jay Flemma "journalism," sales pitches for Dismal River, and a Ben Sims "internet ass kicking."
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Jud, no worries. No bunching on my part. Just wanted to defend the great unwashed.
And I think that in many parts of the country there are golf clubs that would be "join-able" for me and my family. Just none within decent driving distance !
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I am not sure why a journalist can't express his opinion about the pricing structure of private club and how it may relate to the future of golf. While I don't follow Jay its far more interesting get a direct opinion than just another white wash piece which really is covering as a an ad. Its widely believed that golf costs too much and at least some people think for golf to grow again (if one cares about this sort of thing - which all in the business have a vested interest in) than clubs and courses and courses need to deliver high value services at rates that are cheaper than the go go times. What is the issue with an using a real example to hammer home a point? This is what journalists should do.
Ciao
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Jay, Here in your own words is what you paid.
Tommy, I didn't use a lawyer's service, there's something new now, you can call information and ask for someone's phone number...they gave me the naccarato two towns over. I notice you're still four months late on that phone chat we were supposed to have.
While we're at it, its rude to put personal, offlist things on the list. What business is that of the list...except you trying anything you can to discredit me in front of my peers.
And no Kevin, I paid full boat for my round at DR. $237.50...and its none of the lists business for whom I write. While we're at it, anybody looking from Ben's porch can easily see the difference between sand hills and dismal river. Go out there some time and lok for yourself.
Kevin, this is the third thread where you've attacked me and my credibility out of the blue for no reason. With your track record, I know I must be doing something right. You sure were wrong in your supposition I got comped now, weren't you? Get your facts straight.
In fact...its a similar refrain on every thread of mine...Jason, Kevin and Tommy hating on me...yawn...old news.
The thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25469.50.html
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I am not sure why a journalist can't express his opinion about the pricing structure of private club and how it may relate to the future of golf. While I don't follow Jay its far more interesting get a direct opinion than just another white wash piece which really is covering as a an ad. Its widely believed that golf costs too much and at least some people think for golf to grow again (if one cares about this sort of thing - which all in the business have a vested interest in) than clubs and courses and courses need to deliver high value services at rates that are cheaper than the go go times. What is the issue with an using a real example to hammer home a point? This is what journalists should do.
Ciao
You mean an exaggerated example?
His premise is off, when he says it was 350. That may have been the published rate, but it was not what we payed. Journalism should be factually accurate. Do you agree?
The real question is why isn't it worse, when public courses charge $300+. Supply and demand.
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Is there a market for a Fabrege Egg? Sure.
Is there a market for 15 carat Tiffany diamond? Sure
Vintage Bugatti anyone??
I can appreciate and vicariously enjoy a lot of things I can never have or experience. Yes they SHOULD exist ... just not for me.
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I am not sure why a journalist can't express his opinion about the pricing structure of private club and how it may relate to the future of golf. While I don't follow Jay its far more interesting get a direct opinion than just another white wash piece which really is covering as a an ad. Its widely believed that golf costs too much and at least some people think for golf to grow again (if one cares about this sort of thing - which all in the business have a vested interest in) than clubs and courses and courses need to deliver high value services at rates that are cheaper than the go go times. What is the issue with an using a real example to hammer home a point? This is what journalists should do.
Ciao
Comparing the price structure of a high end destination club and the future of golf is no different than comparing the price of a Ferrari and the future of motoring. The pricing structure of golf in the sand hills or Ballyneal has absolutely nothing to do with making golf affordable for beginners or for people who can't afford the luxury of a destination club. I'd assume spa services in Vail are pricey too, but let's not compare it to escalating health care costs.
If there is one thing I've learned through my profession, it's that one shouldn't ever pass judgment on another's spending habits. If driving down the road throwing twenty dollar bills out of your window makes your day.....have at it. If it makes you happy and your wife doesn't kick you out, it's a value.
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I am not sure why a journalist can't express his opinion about the pricing structure of private club and how it may relate to the future of golf. While I don't follow Jay its far more interesting get a direct opinion than just another white wash piece which really is covering as a an ad. Its widely believed that golf costs too much and at least some people think for golf to grow again (if one cares about this sort of thing - which all in the business have a vested interest in) than clubs and courses and courses need to deliver high value services at rates that are cheaper than the go go times. What is the issue with an using a real example to hammer home a point? This is what journalists should do.
Ciao
You mean an exaggerated example?
His premise is off, when he says it was 350. That may have been the published rate, but it was not what we payed. Journalism should be factually accurate. Do you agree?
The real question is why isn't it worse, when public courses charge $300+. Supply and demand.
Adam
Yes, the correct numbers should be included in any journalistic piece and I shall not begin to take sides on what the true amount was. However, this is a very much a side issue. What Jay is questioning is value for money. Whatever he did pay, he didn't believe it represented good value nor a good fee structure for golf to follow. That seems a very valid opinion to me - especially given golf's history of excess and the bad PR that generates.
The distinction between publics or privates charging large fees doesn't matter to me as it means the same thing once I open the wallet. Either way, I have the option not to pay - I can't ask for anymore than that.
Clint
You have your opinion and Jay has his. Life is good.
Ciao
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Above I offered proof of what Jay actually spent. To quote the movie Contagion..Dr. Ian Sussman: Blogging isn't writing. It's graffiti with punctuation. Let's all agree that bloggers are not journalists and not hold them to the same standards or ethics.
Fact: Jay paid $237.50 not $350.00.
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Comparing the price structure of a high end destination club and the future of golf is no different than comparing the price of a Ferrari and the future of motoring. The pricing structure of golf in the sand hills or Ballyneal has absolutely nothing to do with making golf affordable for beginners or for people who can't afford the luxury of a destination club. I'd assume spa services in Vail are pricey too, but let's not compare it to escalating health care costs.
Here here!!
I care deeply about the future of golf and golf architecture. The basis for many of my arguments on this website are based on a more efficient and less expensive reality for golf to be acceptable for the majority of golfers in this nation. I am dedicating a lot of time and effort into a year long thesis project of maintenance efficiencies and maybe even site preservation.
Though I am firm in the convictions above, I want to be clear in my point. Ballyneal, Sand Hills, and Dismal River are important to the future of golf architecture because of what lies on their property. But their business models represent 0.001% of golf. They exist on the merit of their owner and operators, not on the preferences of the median American golfer. Arguing otherwise is pointless and hollow. It serves only as a press release for the poster to say that these clubs are bad for the future of golf.
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They didn't SPONSOR me, I had to pay $350 total for the round and the caddie.
Jay,
Sponsor = access point.
If I sponsor you at Palmetto, you pay the green fee, but you are granted access via my introduction as a member.
If the Club or pro sponsors you, YOU pay the geen fee.
As opposed to a comp.
As far as value in golf, you are of course entitled to your opinion.
Just don't complain that destination courses are not affordable for the masses.
Neither are many other luxury items, nor are they intended to be.
Sounds like a hell of a value to me(especially at the current UG rate), but then I know what the costs are to run a club, spread over a limited # of members (in our case a finite,limited number)
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Sean,
Journalism should absolutely do all the things you argue.
But Jay's blogging is not journalism, or perhaps at the very best it is shoddy journalism.
Jay has a history of not letting facts get in the way of his story, and of reacting poorly and refusing to correct when his glaring errors are pointed out to him, so I am not at all surprised to learn that Jay paid more than $100 less than he claims for his round at Dismal River.
It has been pointed out in this thread that destination golf clubs run on thin margins and need both good management and a little good fortune to prosper. If there's one thing any business in that situation can do without it's Jay Flemma passing ham-fisted judgement based on bogus "facts" in a public forum.
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Scott
As I stated earlier, I don't follow Jay, however, I don't follow guys who want to shut people up because they disagree/don't like/don't respect them. Live and let live. I know guys will say Jay's comments could have a negative economic impact on said club, but that is the nature of criticism. Perhaps if journalists were more willing to stick their necks with their opinions the golf business wouldn't have hit the skids in the first place. I can't see why guys get so worked about Jay - honestly - its bewildering to watch unfold time and again - not unlike the Merion crap.
Ciao
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This thread is interesting to me. There have been a lot of posters over the years on here griping about rising costs of golf and how its bad for the game. Many of these discussions have been about expensive public courses and private clubs with big clubhouses that cost significant $ to build. Now that the discussion is about courses that are architecturally significant to folks, the tune seems to be a bit different, even if the results perhaps are not. The reasons for the costs are different, which can be argued is a legitimate difference.
Personally, I think its up to the builder/financer to determine what to build/where to build it/how to build it, and then its up to the market to determine the going rate and the financial success of the project. What's good for golf as a whole is rather irrelavant other than for discussion purposes. I have no problem with places charging what they need to be financially viable and being exclusively the domain of those wealthy/interested enough to make the trip. I happen to think that current market has been overbuilt, but that's another issue entirely.
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Scott
As I stated earlier, I don't follow Jay, however, I don't follow guys who want to shut people up because they disagree/don't like/don't respect them. Live and let live. I know guys will say Jay's comments could have a negative economic impact on said club, but that is the nature of criticism. Perhaps if journalists were more willing to stick their necks with their opinions the golf business wouldn't have hit the skids in the first place. I can't see why guys get so worked about Jay - honestly - its bewildering to watch unfold time and again - not unlike the Merion crap.
Ciao
Sean- Journalists could have prevented the downturn in the golf business? Who knew?
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Clint
You have your opinion and Jay has his. Life is good.
Ciao
Sure is. But here is the problem. I can discuss what is good golf architecture with the poorest or wealthiest golfer in the world. But I can't discuss value with them. There is no way to ever quantify just how spending $350+ ( or whatever you spend) on a round of golf to another because it's not coming out of the same wallet.
Two people can walk off the same golf course and have equal feelings about it architecturally.....with one wondering how he'll ever pay the credit card bill and the other thinking it's just one more billable hour. That is why someone's opinion of value should have little to no bearing in the discussion here.
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Sean,
I know guys will say Jay's comments could have a negative economic impact on said club, but that is the nature of criticism.
And when that criticism is based on truth and fact, I have no qualms with it. Unfortunately, Jay routinely elects to abandon fact and truth in his writing -- in this case claiming to have paid 50% more than he actually did.
If I were a businessman reading someone lie publicly that they paid 150% the actual price for my good or service, I'd be filthy.
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8) All I can add to this thread is that looking back to Sept09, after finding the place, a little bocce ball, dinner for two with that weekend's Colton Gang, drinks with JimUrbina thrown in, playing some guitar in the bar, barely sleeping (in the comfy bed Jim gave up for us) and a morning match play game with ms sheila over Ballyneal's chop hills in the fierce wind that day... priceless.
didn't want to leave, but had to get to Boulder.
yes, I thought it pricey at checkout, but not unlike our stay at Banff or Bandon for that matter...
So, I have to ask one of my favorite questions ... "So what?"
.. the steak was more expensive at BN than the fried chicken at the N. Platte Airport, both were filling.oth unique in theor own right
Live and let live?
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I never had a problem with Jay issuing his opinion on how DR's high unaccompanied rate was bad for the game, but he shouldn't view folks challenging this opinion as a personal attack. I thought his opinion was ludicrous, and I and others have tried to challenge him to back it up. But we haven't gotten a clear answer yet. I think it is worthwhile for digging into this issue if he's still up for going there without fear of being drawn and quartered.
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John...plus 100 for the caddie.
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John...plus 100 for the caddie.
Bravo Sierra.
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This thread has its good points and its bad points. Focusing on the good...
It has opened my eyes as to why I love the Sand Hills of Nebraska so much...and less specifically, why I travel many miles to play specific golf courses. And that reason is, they are off the charts amazing!!!
I invited some clients friends from Georgia to play golf with me in Nebraska a little over a year ago and they laughed at me and said, "Why would I travel to Nebraska to play golf? We've got good golf right here in Georgia." But I finally got them out to the Sand Hills a few months ago. Their lives have been changed because of it. They talk about it all the time and they can't wait to go back. They've never seen anything like it...and I've never seen them have as much fun on a golf course.
That is why people pay initiation fees and dues for a place they go to a handful of times per year. Oh yeah, airline tickets, rental car fees, etc. Frankly, I've never calculated the cost per round for my enjoyment of Dismal, or Rivermont, or St. Ives for that matter. I don't care. I love it there and I want to be a member and play golf there. That is why I am a member.
Similar things can be said for why I'll travel back to Scotland and why I want to see some other courses in other parts of the country and the world. To see again, and experience for the first time, unique, interesting, and well designed golf courses in different landscapes. Good golf in The South is different from golf in the Sand Hills which is different from golf on the linksland of Scotland. And, in my mind, golfers and golf course architectural enthusiasts need to see these types of places and experience how good golf can be in different locals.
To heck with the price per round. Just like the sales person at Pinehurst told me, "True lovers of golf course architecture don't consider the prices of places they play." :)
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One of the big difference between Ballyneal any of the Neb courses is that there are many more options within a decent(though not short) drive. Nonetheless, it creates some economies of scale for people looking to go on a golf vacation since the plane ticket could be amortized over more rounds.
(this is also why i think we will see more Nebraska development in the not so long term future)
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I think it is fair to say that the living expenses of an average golfer with a home and children is very near to $100,000 per year. That is $275 per day. If you think paying what it costs for you to get out of bed in the morning for a round of golf in the Sand Hills is not egalitarian then you don't understand the meaning of the word.
I don't much care for what I said above but I remember being a kid and thinking $100,000/year was one hell of a nut. When did it become only $275 per day. Damn, and that is before taxes. Is it a wonder why everyone is broke?
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One of the big difference between Ballyneal any of the Neb courses is that there are many more options within a decent(though not short) drive. Nonetheless, it creates some economies of scale for people looking to go on a golf vacation since the plane ticket could be amortized over more rounds.
(this is also why i think we will see more Nebraska development in the not so long term future)
Really? Ballyneal is essentially on the way to the SH courses from Denver and many folks play it or look to play it on the way out. If I were to add a Nebraska jaunt to my next Ballyneal visit, it would require the same amount of windshield time as going straight to Nebraska and playing there.
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Jim,
I took it that Mark was saying that one of the great things about Ballyneal is that there is so much great golf is in the area. Not that it is what you want but I can promise you that if Ballyneal would get carts it would be full, full, full with guys flying into Denver and traveling out to the courses of the Sand Hills. My little group would be good for $5000 of revenue per year. If we had access that is.
It's just is too difficult to drive 3 hours to an airport, fly 2 hours, drive 2 more hours and then walk 18 holes. Hell, I could be at Ballyneal in time for 36 holes on travel day if they had carts.
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John,
I think Mark was isolating Ballyneal from the others because the others are relatively close to each other. Seems he just forgot an "and" in his first sentence.
Maybe if Rupert's plan of a second course allowing carts comes to fruition, you and Mark will get your wishes.
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Scott
I don't know (and don't really care) the definitive cost of Jay's round so I won't question his integrity, much less so in public. Much of what folks get on Jay's case for is a matter of opinion rather than fact. I won't go into past bruhahs because I don't necessarily agree with Jay, but I do think most of the flack is simply a difference of opinion gone a overboard.
Clint
Of course I disagree with you. We already know what the best courses in the world are as there are plenty of rankings to tell us this - including an unofficial GCA.com ranking when looked at closely isn't really all that much different from others if one accepts the top 100 is really about the top 250 when differences of opinion are considered. The architecture of many of the best courses have been discussed widely and thoroughly. I can't see as how writing to value is a no-no subject, especially if the article (and I don't know that it did) already discussed the architecture/ambience/beauty etc.
Ciao
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By the way how much should a round at Ballyneal cost...and Jim any news on the situation of the club at present that is publishable on here?
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By the way how much should a round at Ballyneal cost...and Jim any news on the situation of the club at present that is publishable on here?
Here is a link to what The Prairie Club charges:
http://www.theprairieclub.com/4a318fb9cf_sites/www.theprairieclub.com/files/TCP_Fee_Schedule_2011withCabins.pdf
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Looks like Prairie is a bit more expensive than us, but they do encourage outside play. The extra $50 for all day is in addition to already higher rates. I think they also offer "special" packages for multi-night outside play.
I think the comparison is to other destinations, be it public or private. Lots of places including Pebble and Bandon charge in the same arena, if not more.
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Chris- how is the pheasant hunting around DR? Sorry if this has been asked and answered, but when will the Doak course open?
Adam- how is the pheasant hunting at Ballyneal? I heard from someone not on this site that the second course there is still in the planning stages. Is this true in light of the pending ownership change?
Re: the CPR, I am assuming that the question is asked with the hopes of obtaining honest, personal responses. As such, getting hit on the side of the head with a 2 X 4 for declaring one's limit is not likely to meet the objective. I have been whacked a few times, more than a couple deservedly perhaps, so, sticks and stones .......
My personal limit for a round of golf outside my backyard is between $100-$200, depending on the architecture. There are only a couple courses I would consider paying more to play, and these are not in Nebraska or Colorado. I am also less likely to do so more than occasionally at any one course. Being cost concious can be a terrible buzz killer, but it does help when it comes to putting food on the table during difficult times, and retaining the traditional value (and self-respect) of not expecting others to pay for things that we want or need.
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Still waiting for someone to explain how the guest fee at a private destination club has any bearing on what the cost per round should be for a member at Ballyneal.
Still waiting to hear how the cost per round (whether the guest fee or the calculated per round fee for membership) at a private destination club can be bad for the future of golf.
Unless you are speaking in terms associated with membership to a private club, your personal feelings of what you'll pay to play as a guest have very little do with the actual question posed. This is a finance question posed by John to spark debate about the lengths people wiould be willing to go to be a part of something like BN.
I am surprised by the gall some have displayed on this thread to impose their idea of value onto a PRIVATE LUXURY ITEM! There is no mutual exclusivity here. I can appreciate a well prepared meal at a local establishment while also going nuts for my one trip to the French Laundry.
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Ben,
In defense of Jay I don't think what he said was gallish. He simply became confused on what he paid at Dismal and thought it was a poor value. Given that he played sometime in 2006 before the course was adjusted from opening day mistakes the $237.50 probably was in the universe of poor value.
The truth of the matter is, is that I am grateful for the mistakes made by Dismal in its opening days. I am also grateful to all the critics who rushed to judgement possibly stifling play and membership sales. It was a perfect storm that resulted in me first becoming a member in a manner I found affordable and then Chris purchasing the course where he felt comfortable as an investment.
All I can hope is someday when I am but a humble visitor I hear Jay out by the fire recounting glorious stories of bumping the ball to within inches of 13 at the new Doak.
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Ben,
While I'm not interested in getting into the middle of this specific debate....as it pertains to your 1st question....
...its my understanding that the UK model relies Very Heavily on outside/visitor/public access play to keep fees down for the actual club members. So with significantly lower fees, I can only extrapolate that member cost per round is much lower than it would be otherwise.
The reason, I can guess, why US clubs haven't adopted this model is because most clubs aren't willing to make the change which would no doubt piss off their current members who paid a massive premium to get in. Additionally, I think there are some tax implications that would make it more difficult to switch.
But overall, it seems kinda like Social Security in my mind....sooner or later some big changes will be needed or the entire thing is going to blow up.
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John...
Were you the first GCA.com member to become a member at Dismal? To my knowledge you are...so, I'll call you the Godfather of Dismal (think Old School)...
and due to our trip out west I became a member, so in the vein of your post...I am just glad that Eric Smith got the two of us together and we collectively scratched our heads at why people hated the course so much.
Oh well, it all works out in the wash!!
And as far as Ballyneal goes...a course that good will survive...no question about it!!
And Ben...
I doubt your questions will be answered directly, but alas we all know the answers.
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John...
Were you the first GCA.com member to become a member at Dismal? To my knowledge you are...so, I'll call you the Godfather of Dismal (think Old School)...
One of the original owners of Dismal who I believe is still a member did come on the site and attempt to defend Nicklaus and the design. I really liked the guy and hope to meet him someday. I do not know if he ever still comes here or still has an account. He was beat up pretty badly by the minimalist army. Which reminds me of the old joke..Do you know how you defeat a minimalist army? Flush twice.
I do think I may be the first person to be a member of GCA before he was a member of Dismal.
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So, I'm sticking with The Godfather.
8)
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Unless you are speaking in terms associated with membership to a private club, your personal feelings of what you'll pay to play as a guest have very little do with the actual question posed. This is a finance question posed by John to spark debate about the lengths people wiould be willing to go to be a part of something like BN.
Really. You know Kavanaugh's mind, do you? Before midnight or after? You might tell John so he knows as well. I can tumble the numbers with most of you here and there's absolutely no way I could do justice to the alleged subject matter if, indeed, that was what Barney was trying to accomplish. Actually, from an economics and finance perspective, what potential guests are willing to pay is of great consequence here. Both clubs appear to welcome outside play, and, I suspect, even when they reach their membership objectives, they will continue to do so.
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Mac,
Isnt the new course at Prairie Club going to be called Old School? Godfather of the Old School?
Perhaps Godfather of Dismal River Concrete Boots?
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My gracious, if i tried to look at the cost per game I spend to attend my WVU games in the same manner some are laying forth here I would probably require a new pair of shorts rather quickly. A new accountant for certain.
People will pay for that which they love and hold dear.
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Unless you are speaking in terms associated with membership to a private club, your personal feelings of what you'll pay to play as a guest have very little do with the actual question posed. This is a finance question posed by John to spark debate about the lengths people wiould be willing to go to be a part of something like BN.
Really. You know Kavanaugh's mind, do you? Before midnight or after? You might tell John so he knows as well. I can tumble the numbers with most of you here and there's absolutely no way I could do justice to the alleged subject matter if, indeed, that was what Barney was trying to accomplish. Actually, from an economics and finance perspective, what potential guests are willing to pay is of great consequence here. Both clubs appear to welcome outside play, and, I suspect, even when they reach their membership objectives, they will continue to do so.
Lou,
The purpose of this thread was to openly discuss the costs associated with buying one of the finest clubs in the world out of foreclosure. I knew I didn't want to do it but now I know better why. For years members of this site have discussed owning a club. Ballyneal may be that club given its current perils. I just don't believe I am the only one whose mind it crossed.
My initial question, perhaps poorly phased cloaked in perceived sarcasm, was what is the cost per round that an owner would need to break even. I stupidly thought it to be $150. Today I think much more.
Just this week I was trying to explain to a fellow member of Victoria that at even $600 per month we are being subsidized. It's just hard to swallow how much it costs to run a golf course that is presented in an acceptable manner. Acceptable manner being defined as that which people like Flemma think is a good value.
One more thing, if you don't think it is worth over $200 to play Sand Hills you need to question your own opinions of self worth
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John,
So now what do you think the number is now after these pages of posts and info.
Chris said that he starts with a $2m "nut" each year (I am assuming he means by this, that the $2m is the cost to open the doors and first tee and service members and guests in the appropriate manner) and hopefully by the end, he has it covered and a little left over.
I am not sure I can completely grasp how you can assign a number of rounds to to costs, as surely that depends on a vast numb of factors.
Would it be fair to say, that if the starting cost for a 12 mth trading period(irrelevant of how many months the course is open for play) can be established at around the $2m mark, then forecast the number of members and guests required to fund a break even position and then, hopefully sell some additional memberships to cover the acquisition cost - do you, or did you think there would be enough interested parties on this board to be a potential purchaser?
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Brett,
In the most simple terms, if the nut is $2M and you do 5K rounds the CPR = 400$/R.
I personally think being one of 1500 partners in anything legal is a horrible idea. This board as a collective can not/should not and will never not not own a course.
Hey, I think Chris is doing great out at Dismal with his investment, he does winter at Jackson Hole after all.
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John, Are you saying you have no interest inbeing a part of Pine Valley and its 1200 plus members? Seems to work well for them so far. If the product is good enough people will travel for it. Quite a few of PVs members are also International guys as you well know. As an aside, how about coming to Chicago on2/22 for the gca dinner?
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John, Are you saying you have no interest inbeing a part of Pine Valley and its 1200 plus members? Seems to work well for them so far. If the product is good enough people will travel for it. Quite a few of PVs members are also International guys as you well know. As an aside, how about coming to Chicago on2/22 for the gca dinner?
Jack,
I would be a member of Pine Valley but I would not want to be one of 1200 partners owning it at fair market value. I would guess Pine Valley worth north of $100 million.
I'm sorry but I must decline your generous offer to be a speaker at the Chicago dinner. I have to say that I do love these winter time events that do not include golf. They bring out the true lovers of the game.
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The purpose of this thread was to openly discuss the costs associated with buying one of the finest clubs in the world out of foreclosure.
One more thing, if you don't think it is worth over $200 to play Sand Hills you need to question your own opinions of self worth
Now now, John, after 60 years on this earth and a fairly good grasp of how things work, I don't feel pressed to re-examine what value I place on things and experiences. Perhaps my posture vis-a-vis Sand Hills might be more upscale if I ran a family business that thrived in these difficult economic times. Alas, I must sit back and admire the guys who have multiple memberships and play the best courses. I am thankful when I am invited occasionally to join them at a cost that's most always within the price per round range I noted. Perhaps they are subsidizing my enjoyment of the game; I prefer to think that I am also contributing well beyond the marginal cost of my round to support their clubs, not to say anything of the fine companionship I provide. ;)
Regarding "buying" Ballyneal, the first thing might be learning what the current noteholder needs to release his lien. This will go a long ways in determening what CPR will be required, and assessing which business model might make this possible. The "members" of GCA.com will not be the eventual owner, I don't think.
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Lou,
At least when we are paired together our cost per hour is low.
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Being a member at a Destination club I can tell you the cost per round is high but what's it worth to be on golf course with a group of guys where you realize on a June Saturday afternoon you're the only people on the course. I may be the least likely person to ever join a club like this but it has never crossed my mind that it was a bad idea. It means I haven't been to Bandon but that doesn't bother me at all either. My course allows quite a bit of unescorted play at what is a relatively high fee but the accompanied fee is a bargain ( less than half the unaccompanied) which makes it a real bargain for friends of members but there's nothing wrong with that.
Hopefully we get enough unaccompanied members to move out of the double wide but that doesn't bother me either.
I'm reminded of Kavs prophetic statement that you pay dues to keep people off your club so its available when you want to play ( something like that).
Buck
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Lou and Brett.
We are mixing peas and carrots here. The total all-in "nut" is close to $2M but golf fees are but a part of the revenue stream. Actually there are 3 to 3-1/2: golf, lodging, F&B, and proshop. At $150 per round alone, we couldn't make it. On a very rough basis, we average around $450-$500 per guest/day as follows:
Rough per day estimates:
Golf: $150 avg. (Members don't pay golf fees as they do pay dues)
Lodging: $140 avg.
F&B: $115 avg.
Shop: $50 avg.
Roughly, breakeven is then $2M/$450 = 4,400 guest nights.
Roughly, we need to average 32 guests per day to breakeven on a 135 day season, late May to early October.
Roughly, the average is 8 foursomes per day, or 4 eightsomes.
Roughly, with 78 beds, we need to average 41% yield for the year.
Roughly, a member brings 6.5 guests per visit.
This is where the lodging and F&B are meaningful to the organization. The average for golf is for all-day play and, I believe, quite reasonable.
Non member or member sponsored (outside) play is less than 1% of our total yield.
We believe Tom's new course will increase yield.
These numbers are probably close to Bandon and Ballyneal sans debt. Only difference is I believe Ballyneal has less rooms and a third party owns some or all of the lodging so there may be an additional cost line here.
Like Bandon and Ballyneal, we go out of our way to ensure everyopne has a great time when here. That is the only reason people join a club or come out.
Those are the basics on a yield basis. With a yield orientation, we choose not to charge much to join and keep dues reasonable. And to preeempt the criticsm this isn't promoting anything, its just the model better explained. People should know what they are joining.
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On a related note, the hits-per-topic counts that JK, Shivas, and Tom Doak manage to generate each time they deign to start a thread rival in comparative terms not only Ballyneal and Sand Hills but Shadow Creek too. I think this is an interesting fact, i.e. it seems to suggest something, but I can't figure out exactly what.
Peter
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Posted on: Today at 14:30:20 Posted by: John Kavanaugh
Insert Quote
Brett,
In the most simple terms, if the nut is $2M and you do 5K rounds the CPR = 400$/R.
EDIT: posted this while Chris made his.!
John,
Why do you find it easier or most simple to apply the cost per round model, as it seems to me only relevant post results, i.e. at the end of the financial period being reviewed.
What happens if you get half way thru the period and you are only at 50%of forecast rounds, then the CPR goes up to $600-800 (?) or other such rise, then making the target number and break-even not only difficult but require a change to the business model for the remainder of the period.
Instead of say, (I dont know the numbers, these are just hypotheticals) we have 200 members at an annual sub of $5,000(including a huge house levy to encourage frequent use - say $3,000 sub and $2,000 house levy), we expect all guests, either accompanied or not, to spend $500 over a two night stay as an average, so we need 2,000 guest visits - if they play 72 holes per visit, and then add F&B revenue on top of that, for purchases and casual staff not allowed for in the $2m nut.
That will give you your $2m revenue, plus additional F&B from both members (over their $2k house levy) and guests, say another 750-$1m plus some new member joining fees.
You still got to find upgrades, replacements, build a second course(?), build additional Acc if required, etc but they of course can funded over a much longer period.
Does that work?
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Still waiting for someone to explain how the guest fee at a private destination club has any bearing on what the cost per round should be for a member at Ballyneal.
Still waiting to hear how the cost per round (whether the guest fee or the calculated per round fee for membership) at a private destination club can be bad for the future of golf.
Unless you are speaking in terms associated with membership to a private club, your personal feelings of what you'll pay to play as a guest have very little do with the actual question posed. This is a finance question posed by John to spark debate about the lengths people wiould be willing to go to be a part of something like BN.
I am surprised by the gall some have displayed on this thread to impose their idea of value onto a PRIVATE LUXURY ITEM! There is no mutual exclusivity here. I can appreciate a well prepared meal at a local establishment while also going nuts for my one trip to the French Laundry.
Ben, you're not gong to get an answer. You suggested to the board that I be black-listed because I had the courage to say I thought the price was too high. :o That's contrary to the mission of GCA.com to promote honest discussion - and that discussion includes price. It's also not what Ran and Ben envisioned when they started this site. :(
People can disagree that a course may be worth "x" without suggesting interfering with someone's profession as a writer or reputation as a person.
We'll have to talk some other time on some other thread, but you've used all your chits with me on this one after that. I think you owe a few people an apology. That was some of the worst form I've seen on GCA.com.
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Lou and Brett.
We are mixing peas and carrots here. The total all-in "nut" is close to $2M but golf fees are but a part of the revenue stream. Actually there are 3 to 3-1/2: golf, lodging, F&B, and proshop. At $150 per round alone, we couldn't make it. On a very rough basis, we average around $450-$500 per guest/day as follows:
Rough per day estimates:
Golf: $150 avg. (Members don't pay golf fees as they do pay dues)
Lodging: $140 avg.
F&B: $115 avg.
Shop: $50 avg.
Roughly, breakeven is then $2M/$450 = 4,400 guest nights.
Roughly, we need to average 32 guests per day to breakeven on a 135 day season, late May to early October.
Roughly, the average is 8 foursomes per day, or 4 eightsomes.
Roughly, with 78 beds, we need to average 41% yield for the year.
Roughly, a member brings 6.5 guests per visit.
This is where the lodging and F&B are meaningful to the organization. The average for golf is for all-day play and, I believe, quite reasonable.
Non member or member sponsored (outside) play is less than 1% of our total yield.
We believe Tom's new course will increase yield.
These numbers are probably close to Bandon and Ballyneal sans debt. Only difference is I believe Ballyneal has less rooms and a third party owns some or all of the lodging so there may be an additional cost line here.
Like Bandon and Ballyneal, we go out of our way to ensure everyopne has a great time when here. That is the only reason people join a club or come out.
Those are the basics on a yield basis. With a yield orientation, we choose not to charge much to join and keep dues reasonable. And to preeempt the criticsm this isn't promoting anything, its just the model better explained. People should know what they are joining.
As good as it gets.
Thanks Chris.
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Ben, you're not gong to get an answer. You suggested to the board that I be black-listed because I had the courage to say I thought the price was too high. :o That's contrary to the mission of GCA.com to promote honest discussion - and that discussion includes price. It's also not what Ran and Ben envisioned when they started this site. :(
People can disagree that a course may be worth "x" without suggesting interfering with someone's profession as a writer or reputation as a person.
We'll have to talk some other time on some other thread, but you've used all your chits with me on this one after that. I think you owe a few people an apology. That was some of the worst form I've seen on GCA.com.
I never said anyone should be blacklisted. I said it wouldn't surprise me if they were less than hospitable after you question their business model while a guest at their club. It's up to their members what is an acceptable cost, not their guests.
Maybe Chris Johnston, Matt Payne, Jagger Mandrell and Dave Hensley would like to hear how their hard work is bad for the future of golf. I for one would love to hear how Ballyneal and Dismal River are in any way related to the brand of golf that Joe Six-pack plays.
I gather you won't be writing about how bad for golf the per round price at Augusta is when you're down there this spring?
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Lou and Brett.
We are mixing peas and carrots here. The total all-in "nut" is close to $2M but golf fees are but a part of the revenue stream. Actually there are 3 to 3-1/2: golf, lodging, F&B, and proshop. At $150 per round alone, we couldn't make it. On a very rough basis, we average around $450-$500 per guest/day as follows:
Rough per day estimates:
Golf: $150 avg. (Members don't pay golf fees as they do pay dues)
Lodging: $140 avg.
F&B: $115 avg.
Shop: $50 avg.
Roughly, breakeven is then $2M/$450 = 4,400 guest nights.
Roughly, we need to average 32 guests per day to breakeven on a 135 day season, late May to early October.
Roughly, the average is 8 foursomes per day, or 4 eightsomes.
Roughly, with 78 beds, we need to average 41% yield for the year.
Roughly, a member brings 6.5 guests per visit.
This is where the lodging and F&B are meaningful to the organization. The average for golf is for all-day play and, I believe, quite reasonable.
Non member or member sponsored (outside) play is less than 1% of our total yield.
We believe Tom's new course will increase yield.
These numbers are probably close to Bandon and Ballyneal sans debt. Only difference is I believe Ballyneal has less rooms and a third party owns some or all of the lodging so there may be an additional cost line here.
Like Bandon and Ballyneal, we go out of our way to ensure everyopne has a great time when here. That is the only reason people join a club or come out.
Those are the basics on a yield basis. With a yield orientation, we choose not to charge much to join and keep dues reasonable. And to preeempt the criticsm this isn't promoting anything, its just the model better explained. People should know what they are joining.
As good as it gets.
Thanks Chris.
BOOM!!!
As good as its gets.
Thanks Chris. Keep up the good work.
FYI...I'm trying to keep this thread on a value-added track and away from the internet food fight it was and appears to be headed towards again. I hope it isn't too obvious. 8)
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Ben, I'll be writing about the Masters tournament because that's the assignment.
Chris Johnston spoke his opinion on my thoughts on this thread with remarkable clarity...and he respected them politely and had a great exchange of ideas with me. I look forward to meeting him when I return to COL/NEB. His positions on what I said are clearly laid out in this thread...and he had no problem with what I said. He even agreed with it. I'll go in with open eyes and an open mind as to what's changed. I only ask you treat me with the same open mindedness.
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Lou and Brett.
We are mixing peas and carrots here. The total all-in "nut" is close to $2M but golf fees are but a part of the revenue stream. Actually there are 3 to 3-1/2: golf, lodging, F&B, and proshop. At $150 per round alone, we couldn't make it. On a very rough basis, we average around $450-$500 per guest/day as follows:
Rough per day estimates:
Golf: $150 avg. (Members don't pay golf fees as they do pay dues)
Lodging: $140 avg.
F&B: $115 avg.
Shop: $50 avg.
Roughly, breakeven is then $2M/$450 = 4,400 guest nights.
Roughly, we need to average 32 guests per day to breakeven on a 135 day season, late May to early October.
Roughly, the average is 8 foursomes per day, or 4 eightsomes.
Roughly, with 78 beds, we need to average 41% yield for the year.
Roughly, a member brings 6.5 guests per visit.
This is where the lodging and F&B are meaningful to the organization. The average for golf is for all-day play and, I believe, quite reasonable.
Non member or member sponsored (outside) play is less than 1% of our total yield.
We believe Tom's new course will increase yield.
These numbers are probably close to Bandon and Ballyneal sans debt. Only difference is I believe Ballyneal has less rooms and a third party owns some or all of the lodging so there may be an additional cost line here.
Like Bandon and Ballyneal, we go out of our way to ensure everyopne has a great time when here. That is the only reason people join a club or come out.
Those are the basics on a yield basis. With a yield orientation, we choose not to charge much to join and keep dues reasonable. And to preeempt the criticsm this isn't promoting anything, its just the model better explained. People should know what they are joining.
I do not have a dog in the fight.
But when pricing your golf....rather it be per round or an all day rate...why would you include F&B?
When you include this there is a cost of goods you have not factored in.
Having owned a recreational business....all F&B is a separate profit center....
And it has nothing to do with the price of our main attraction
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"A member brings an average 6.5 guests per visit."
That's the most interesting thing I have read on this thread. That is a surprisingly high average to me.
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I'll go in with open eyes and an open mind as to what's changed. I only ask you treat me with the same open mindedness.
Fair enough Jay. Here's a post by you with a response by Jim Colton. Please elaborate. I am honestly wondering how BN and DR are bad for the future of golf. If you would be so kind as to expound on that thought and please don't link your blog. I'm being concilatory here. I really want to know.
Jeff, Tim I do not agree. Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game. To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.
Who said this a zero-sum game? I can and will support both groups.
??
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Jerry,
Going to Dismal without consideration of food and beverage would be like taking a fishing pole on a cruise ship.
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Jerry,
I think the difference here, as indicated in my post, is that the kind of golf we are talking about here, is experience based, that is, members and guests visit these places, not for car park golf, arrive, shoes on, play, get back in the car and leave.
For the model that we were discussing above, IMO, was in regard to a overnight stay, great golf, great friends, hospitality and experience, what you eat and drink at this kind of place can have a major impact on the level of enjoyment of the experience and most importantly, if and how often you wish to return.
Barnbougle Dunes is a superb example of this working.
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I understand if you have a captive audience ...the golfers must buy your product.
And I have been at places where you want to dine there.
You guys answered my question.
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Jerry,
Going to Dismal without consideration of food and beverage would be like taking a fishing pole on a cruise ship.
I was not a fan of analogies --- I am now converted.
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Jerry:
Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here. That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country. We really do take the experience we provide quite seriously. There are no other alternatives within an hour drive and those are more in the Red Lobster grade. I guess you don't have to eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, or have a beverage. But, if you do, here is where you get it. We don't have people come for the day then go home and there are no alternatives. Hooker County, Nebraska has less than 1,000 residents. We aren't a Country Club in the traditional sense. We are a "destination" golf club, and I would even add "very remote" to the term. If people leave to have dinner, they are on their way to Sand Hills, Prairie, Ballyneal, or an airport to return home. I think that's why the guys who love these place love them. There is a real comraderie and real sense of place at all of these clubs. Bandon does it in a public model.
Sands Hills has a magnificent golf course but few would argue the experience isn't even better. Most would say the same for Dismal River and Ballyneal. I've had some of the best meals ever at Sand Hills and Dismal River - Tom and Don have to bring a bigger pair of pants if they stay a few weeks. Special is special, even if it may not be special to everyone.
Again, I assume it is the same at Bandon and Ballyneal.
It isn't promotion, its just very special.
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Jerry,
Going to Dismal without consideration of food and beverage would be like taking a fishing pole on a cruise ship.
I was not a fan of analogies --- I am now converted.
Mike
Its runner up to Mike Young's "couldn't sell snatch on a troop train" for me.
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Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here. That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country.
I don't know why you would even bother with golf if you serve up breakfast like this:
(http://www.dismalriver.com/img/modulePhotos/clubhouse/breakfast.jpg)
French toast with caramelised banana?
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Value......what is value???
Always a very difficult if not impossible question to answer with so many different inputs and modes of justification.
I can see what Jay was trying to say, as I can equally understand those who objected to his stance but in essence the difference in opinions between the two sides answeres the question itself.....
How much would I pay to go and see my beloved Manchester United play.....
well a return airfare to the UK...hotel for two nights...the price of a ticket..etc.......that is what it is worth to me once per year.
How much is it worth to play at Sand Hills, about the same all in...but again if the opportunity arises again..I would do it.
I can say the same about Ballyneal because anytrip in that direction would include both courses and the trip down the road to Dismal River.
So the "worth" factor will certainly vary from person to person and Joe Six Pack may view the numbers that I would have to generate to take such a trip as obscene.
I would view similar numbers to attend a NASCAR race in the same manner, as obscene, but I have done it once.
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Any club with top notch food is a value added IMO as it's pretty rare in my experience. This can just as easily be a great burger and a cold local microbrew as fine dining. I guess the point is if you're gonna serve food and drink, why not make it really good? I really can't understand the full service clubs that serve pricey mediocre food. I guess they feel they have a captive audience, at least for the time being...
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How much is it worth to play at Sand Hills, about the same all in...but again if the opportunity arises again..I would do it.
I can say the same about Ballyneal because anytrip in that direction would include both courses and the trip down the road to Dismal River.
One thing I think Jim Colton would agree with me on is that just because Sand Hills, Dismal and Ballyneal are in the same region there is absolutely no reason to make the trip feeling like you need to play all three. I have played Sand Hills once, and I am very grateful for that once, but don't have a need to ever play it again. I would be, and have been, very happy to make the journey with the intention of only playing one of the three.
Now with Kemper Sports taking over management of The Prairie Club time/travel management have gotten even more confusing. I am afraid I am just going to have to flip a coin on even what should be the simplest choice of flying into Denver or Omaha. It is like if you are going to relax and enjoy your excursion you need to pick one girl to take to the dance. It sure worked for the members of Sand Hills for many years.
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Any club with top notch food is a value added IMO as it's pretty rare in my experience. This can just as easily be a great burger and a cold local microbrew as fine dining. I guess the point is if you're gonna serve food and drink, why not make it really good? I really can't understand the full service clubs that serve pricey mediocre food. I guess they feel they have a captive audience, at least for the time being...
Not only that, what is so difficult about providing some space to breathe and a bit of room to push back your chair.
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Jerry:
Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here. That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country. We really do take the experience we provide quite seriously. There are no other alternatives within an hour drive and those are more in the Red Lobster grade. I guess you don't have to eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, or have a beverage. But, if you do, here is where you get it. We don't have people come for the day then go home and there are no alternatives. Hooker County, Nebraska has less than 1,000 residents. We aren't a Country Club in the traditional sense. We are a "destination" golf club, and I would even add "very remote" to the term. If people leave to have dinner, they are on their way to Sand Hills, Prairie, Ballyneal, or an airport to return home. I think that's why the guys who love these place love them. There is a real comraderie and real sense of place at all of these clubs. Bandon does it in a public model.
Sands Hills has a magnificent golf course but few would argue the experience isn't even better. Most would say the same for Dismal River and Ballyneal. I've had some of the best meals ever at Sand Hills and Dismal River - Tom and Don have to bring a bigger pair of pants if they stay a few weeks. Special is special, even if it may not be special to everyone.
Again, I assume it is the same at Bandon and Ballyneal.
It isn't promotion, its just very special.
This quintessentially describes the level of service that is required for this sort of destination golf experience. I've been to Bandon five times and have never left the property. The execution of the food and beverage service, combined with the comfortable gathering areas ensures that I won't have any pressing need to exit the premises in search of same. My experience at Sand Hills was the same. I went with a couple golf writer buddies and we had a spectacular time, especially after the sun went down. Everybody who played that day (probably six dozen players) went directly to the bar and then the dining room where we washed down the steaks with great cabernet while Old Mother Hubbard regaled us with a bunch of funny stories. You aren't going to get that at the Red Lobster. I'm heartened, but not surprised, to learn that the demand for excellence is the same at Dismal River. I'm bringing my crew out a couple times this summer and will give full reports!
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JK,
No problem with what you say at all...any iof the three venues would be justification for a trip in their own right, I can agree with that..
Again it is what ever is value to you...to me if I am going to pay the airfare to Denver, or even North Platte I will play them all.
BUT...If one of my buddies with his own jet comes along...I may choose just one ;)
but I am greedy, spoiled and a total good course junkie!!!
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Terry the quality of food and gathering areas at Dismal will certainly not dissappoint!!!!
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JK,
No problem with what you say at all...any iof the three venues would be justification for a trip in their own right, I can agree with that..
Again it is what ever is value to you...to me if I am going to pay the airfare to Denver, or even North Platte I will play them all.
BUT...If one of my buddies with his own jet comes along...I may choose just one ;)
but I am greedy, spoiled and a total good course junkie!!!
You must also be connected. Airfare to Denver is $120 bucks each way, Omaha $90. Airfare is a non issue.
What is odd about this entire discussion is that Sand Hills was more enjoyable when it was the only choice. All these distractions actually dilute the experience. I believe the new Doak course will eliminate many of the distractions associated with at trip to Dismal. Get there, play, get home sounds so simply exotic.
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Lou and Brett.
We are mixing peas and carrots here.
Chris- I didn't address the viability (or justification) of the DR model. To do so with any level of confidence, I would need much more detailed information on the capital structure, operations (P & L), condition of the property, and long term objectives. While I've "known" JohnK for nearly 10 years, I typically don't have a clue where he is coming from, so, I should have answered the question in the manner that it could be given the two conditions (no debt, housing gains offsetting F & B losses) and single metric (CPR based on 10,000 per annum). That would have been a relatively easy exercise- assume maintenance and total operating expenses at $1 Million, the CPR = $100; $2 Million + $200; etc. That's way too simple for such a complicated man who estimates road projects in the multi-millions, so, instead, I thought that maybe he was trying to develop a feel for what posters on this site might be willing to pay on a CPR basis. That's what I answered, knowing the likelihood that he would find some way to minimize me as being a cheapskate.
I dont need to tell you that the ultra-high quality service- low volume model you seem to be executing translates to disproportionally high costs. There are quite a few in Texas that are trying to do similar things (like JKs Victoria National example, I recently played with the HP of one such club with over 300 members, mid-five figure initiation fee, around $12k in annual dues, and no debt that somehow has to be subsidized to the tune of $2 Million by the developer owner). It is a testament to the economic strength of this country that there appears to be enough people who can belong to such places. I can bet that the members of these clubs dont think in terms of cost per round (or in a community property state, their wives are kept in the dark). I am very thankful that such clubs exist and wish the members continued success. Golf being a big world, we are all better off having a wide range of choices; from Pinion Hills to the Sand Hills; from Akin GC to Augusta National; from old Tenison East to Dallas National.
Chris, if you could, please answer my two earlier questions: how is the pheasant hunting in your area and when do you expect the Doak course to open. I do look forward to playing DR someday.
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Whatever became of Sutton Bay?
Does it now occupy the cesspool of the sandhills that Dismal once did?
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I believe the new Doak course will eliminate many of the distractions associated with at trip to Dismal.
Not to mention bringing out the balance of us GCA buttboys... ;)
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Whatever became of Sutton Bay?
Does it now occupy the cesspool of the sandhills that Dismal once did?
It literally slipped into the lake. They are rebuilding a new course at no cost to the members.
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Lou
No worries - I enjoy your comments! I shared the basics so you can judge for yourself. Sorry about forgetting your other questions - I was thinking about food!
There is bird hunting in the area and we are happy to put folks who wish to avail in touch with more knowldgeable locals. Fishing too. We don't get alot of this but it is around. Mullen has a pretty cool annual event called the "Sharptail Shootout" in the Fall. People come from all over the country to partake.
Tom's course will be finished this spring/summer and, with grow in, open probably July/August of 2013. Members may be able to "sneak on it" this fall if weather is helpful but that will be limited and I won't be looking.
I believe Sutton Bay had some challenges with the land but it too is a very special place and the club is doing all the right things to address the issues. Well worth the visit and a great place.
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I believe the new Doak course will eliminate many of the distractions associated with at trip to Dismal.
Not to mention bringing out the balance of us GCA buttboys... ;)
Jud,
It's not often that I compliment the members of this board, but I must say how pleased I am at the number of people who have traveled to Dismal before they could play the new Doak. The success of the 5th major is a testament to the true love of the game. I will never forget those who showed kindness to her before the birth of the chosen one.
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I have played Sand Hills once, and I am very grateful for that once, but don't have a need to ever play it again. I would be, and have been, very happy to make the journey with the intention of only playing one of the three.
Thanks for this sentiment Barney. I was beginning to forget the reason I like you. It hasn't crossed my mind to solicit access to either Sand Hills or Ballyneal while at this year's 5th Major. Personally, to desire a second bite of the Fruit of the Tree of Architectural Greatness undermines the tremendous privilege it is to be offered the first bite, which invariably satisfies me. I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.
As for value, last year I spent approximatyely $500 and two days to drive and play 18 holes at a course I wanted to see at the invitation of a member whose fellowship I enjoy immensely. It wasn't a question of "value." I can't justify anything based on "value." With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."
See you at Dismal.
Bogey
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Whatever became of Sutton Bay?
Does it now occupy the cesspool of the sandhills that Dismal once did?
It literally slipped into the lake. They are rebuilding a new course at no cost to the members.
Wow. I missed that news. I looked at their website the other day when this question popped into my brain, and saw no mention of a problem.
I just looked up a thread from August and it's a mess. I wish them luck.
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I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.
I can't justify anything based on "value." With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."
Bogey
Well, Bogey, I am very disppointed that you didn't assign your invitation to CPC to someone you know who has a score to settle there.
Regarding "value", hear, hear! Nothing underscores this more than a tragic auto accident this last week that took the life of a distant acquaintance, Ron Eddins, at the young age of 41. He was the best golfer at a club known for its deep bench, an accomplished lawyer I am told, and an extremely considerate, enjoyable young man the few times I played golf with him. Enjoy what you can responsibly. One never knows.
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I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.
I can't justify anything based on "value." With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."
Bogey
Well, Bogey, I am very disppointed that you didn't assign your invitation to CPC to someone you know who has a score to settle there.
Lou, who's to say I didn't?
Bogey
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Bogey,
Now I am really depressed and envious. Time to logout.
Cheers!
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Lou and Brett.
We are mixing peas and carrots here. The total all-in "nut" is close to $2M but golf fees are but a part of the revenue stream. Actually there are 3 to 3-1/2: golf, lodging, F&B, and proshop. At $150 per round alone, we couldn't make it. On a very rough basis, we average around $450-$500 per guest/day as follows:
Rough per day estimates:
Golf: $150 avg. (Members don't pay golf fees as they do pay dues)
Lodging: $140 avg.
F&B: $115 avg.
Shop: $50 avg.
Roughly, breakeven is then $2M/$450 = 4,400 guest nights.
Roughly, we need to average 32 guests per day to breakeven on a 135 day season, late May to early October.
Roughly, the average is 8 foursomes per day, or 4 eightsomes.
Roughly, with 78 beds, we need to average 41% yield for the year.
Roughly, a member brings 6.5 guests per visit.
I dont mean to be a cat amongst the pigeons here but i have some issues with the math. To get to the breakeven, you need to look at variable profit, not revenue. For guest fees and lodging, it all drops to the bottom line since the staff that support it are pretty much fixed feeds, but it doesn't in the shop or F&B.
If you assume 40% margin on the shop and 60% for F&B, your new profit per round is $370 which moves the breakeven close to 5400 rounds, moving the yield significantly higher. Not undoable but a significant amount more than the first estimates.
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For simplicity, the $2 million nut is fully loaded with all costs included and accounted for. I will grant you that we would see higher varianble expenses if we did, say, 7,000 rounds.
I put the number in for simplicity of discussion, not GAAP or an in-debth analysis or exercise.
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Please no mention of GAAP on this website. I come here to get away from financial statement analysis. :)
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I have played Sand Hills once, and I am very grateful for that once, but don't have a need to ever play it again. I would be, and have been, very happy to make the journey with the intention of only playing one of the three.
Thanks for this sentiment Barney. I was beginning to forget the reason I like you. It hasn't crossed my mind to solicit access to either Sand Hills or Ballyneal while at this year's 5th Major. Personally, to desire a second bite of the Fruit of the Tree of Architectural Greatness undermines the tremendous privilege it is to be offered the first bite, which invariably satisfies me. I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.
As for value, last year I spent approximatyely $500 and two days to drive and play 18 holes at a course I wanted to see at the invitation of a member whose fellowship I enjoy immensely. It wasn't a question of "value." I can't justify anything based on "value." With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."
See you at Dismal.
Bogey
Bogey
Life is short, but long on choices. We all make some decisions based on value whether it is admitted or not. That in no way implies a $500 round can't be good value or that a $20 round is good value. Value is precious, but necessarily includes compromises either in what we are getting or what we are paying. We know when we have experienced good value and doubtless that experience brings a smile to one's face - who doesn't enjoy a good deal? We also know when we have been had and that tends to leave a sour note lingering.
Ciao
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Chris J:
Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here. That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country.
I think it is comments like this that lead some people to ponder -- as they have on this website from time to time -- whether "Marketing: GCA.com - $0" appears in the balance sheets of DRGC.
In any case, better than 99% is a hell of a call. The food and accommodations must be REALLY good!
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Might be time to give the tired schtick some pine.
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Golly, Scott, I was responding to the contributors to the thread wrt food and beverage and why makes sense out here and is different from a typical club. Feel free not to read them but I don't want to rude to the good people whoi are interested. It isn't marketing - I didn't pose the question. To contribute, I have tried to be very transparent with, and share, the basic numbers so that thiose interested know the basics of how these things work in one of these monsters. You call that marketing, I call it contributing.
If you ask anyone who has been here, the food really is that good. 30 day dry aged "Sterling Silver" steaks and a double cut pork chop as big as your fist have gained a lot of fans. Pulled Pork shipped in from the Montgomery Inn in Cincinnati, or a Certified Angus Beef burger for lunch. Very little of what we serve comes from a can, box, or bag. Our Executive Chef has earned many awards and was (arguably of course) the best chef in Wyoming, including Jackson Hole. He is also a great friend, a very good shortstop, and I've known and worked with him on and off for 17 years. Old 201 ain't bad either.
If informing or clarifying the model is marketing to you, so be it. I know alot of people who like the negative and love to find fault. Don't count me among them. I like the positive and love golf in most all forms. I am a supporter of all courses and those who run, work at, and bust their butts to maintain them. I'm one of them. You will never see me take a swipe at anyone and contribute facts over opinion.
To clear up an error...marketing is an income statement item, it's not on the balance sheet.
Feels free to come on out and see the place for yourself.
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CJ
For what it's worth. I look forward to enjoying one of your dry age steaks within the next 18 months. You can hand me the menu without the prices if you want
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John:
I may join you for one if you have space at the table for a tired old warhorse with dumb stories to share!
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8) Chris J.
If you ship in pulled pork from the Montgomery Inn in Cinti... could you also have some Skyline Chilli and Graeter's Ice Cream also brought in as a special order for a U.C. alum?
Steve
U.C. 1975 & 1977
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A well travelled friend said to me at dinner last summer, "THIS is NOT a grocery store steak!" ;D
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8) Chris J.
If you ship in pulled pork from the Montgomery Inn in Cinti... could you also have some Skyline Chilli and Graeter's Ice Cream also brought in as a special order for a U.C. alum?
Steve
U.C. 1975 & 1977
Steve
I always have Black Raspberry Chocolate Chip in my "private" stash. I love Skyline and thought about having it available for lunch. Problem is, the stains on shirts. Inverted 5 way, side of cheese and chili cheese sandwich was my go to order. Montgomery Road and 275 was my primary spot back in the day. Ruined a ton of ties too. Precinct was a darned good steakhouse too! Montgomery Inn is the best and we have Saratoga Chips on site most days.
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8) Chris,
Good man! Customer satisfaction.. I'm interested. Next time I visit area I'd like to rate your kitchen, oh and check out the golf too!
Skyline is an aquired taste, best after 1 AM.. better not put it on the menu.. shirts and all.. I was a Clifton-Ludlow guy.
Cheers
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Oh hell, I wasn't going to say anything on here and chalk it up to another one of those threads that seem to be thrown out in something of a provocative manner to get a rise out of folks. Sure JK has a very active mind and probably was contemplating buying the joint at BallyNeal and was wondering what the price point of value was, yada yada. That is JK, and he can stir it up in the most uniquely confounding of ways. Sorry to see the pile-on of Jay, but you are all big boys, including Jay, and he can handle himself just fine. As a reader, I really got nothing out of the back and forth that ensued.
I do want to say this, however, from my one time meet-up and short non-golf day with Chris touring DR, along with reading his contributions on GCA.com for the last year and a half or so. IMHO, he is the real deal when it comes to just being a sincere golf goof, person who loves the game and the arena that is perfect for what he does out there at DR. I venture to say there are not a handful of men in this country/world that could pull it off and be as dedicated to what he has invested of himself in personal effort, and personal $. To me it is irrelevant how much the $ entails, because he has so much of himself and his soul invested there. And, I can't think of another golf entrepreneur owner, developer, manager, or principle that has been more forthcoming of personal business details to advance the understanding of what it takes. To that end, there are more people that read what he has to say that can be far more educated on these matters than taking wild guesses at things they otherwise wouldn't know. There are (and I have met a few of the others who are dedicated to these sand hills and region golf enclaves) who have contributed to these discussions and been very welcoming of some of us real fanatics on GCA.com. But, none moreso than Chris, with his positive cheerleading for ALL of the sand hill operations, and extraordinary sharing of otherwise private information.
On JKs point, FWIW, value of rounds in my mind is a fleeting notion - after knowing folks that shouldn't even spend what they do on golf, because they can't afford it, to others that have no second thoughts to any known extreme cost of membership or rounds at end-of-the-world destinations because they are so wealthy. It can't be quantified and placed in a tidy tight box. Like someone said above, if you spend more than a few bucks and you have buyers regret, you should be more careful. If you spend enough to make you uncomfortable, yet you loved it and it was part of special times in life, and you didn't take away from your family responsibilities, then good on you for enjoying your one and only trip through this life. L'chiam!
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Trying to define value is not easy.
What is the value of a father and son attending the first NFL playoff game in team history.
The tickets are not cheap, parking, four hours of cooking, eating and enjoying refreshments prior as the crowd gets fired up...it all adds up if you get your pencil out.
Then total bedlam when this happens (since we're talking about cinci)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-MLd1iCY8c
Color it worth it. Back to work on Monday.
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Chris J:
Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here. That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country.
I think it is comments like this that lead some people to ponder -- as they have on this website from time to time -- whether "Marketing: GCA.com - $0" appears in the balance sheets of DRGC.
In any case, better than 99% is a hell of a call. The food and accommodations must be REALLY good!
Scott,
He might not be that far off. If you assume that DR is 201 modern, call it the 500th best course in the country, 400th best private course. How many private clubs do we have in the US? From all accounts, food and lodging is very good at DR, so it has to move it up the ranks. Of course, many clubs don't have accommodations and many have simple food options.
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Golly, Scott, I was responding to the contributors to the thread wrt food and beverage and why makes sense out here and is different from a typical club. Feel free not to read them but I don't want to rude to the good people whoi are interested. It isn't marketing - I didn't pose the question. To contribute, I have tried to be very transparent with, and share, the basic numbers so that thiose interested know the basics of how these things work in one of these monsters. You call that marketing, I call it contributing.
If you ask anyone who has been here, the food really is that good. 30 day dry aged "Sterling Silver" steaks and a double cut pork chop as big as your fist have gained a lot of fans. Pulled Pork shipped in from the Montgomery Inn in Cincinnati, or a Certified Angus Beef burger for lunch. Very little of what we serve comes from a can, box, or bag. Our Executive Chef has earned many awards and was (arguably of course) the best chef in Wyoming, including Jackson Hole. He is also a great friend, a very good shortstop, and I've known and worked with him on and off for 17 years. Old 201 ain't bad either.
If informing or clarifying the model is marketing to you, so be it. I know alot of people who like the negative and love to find fault. Don't count me among them. I like the positive and love golf in most all forms. I am a supporter of all courses and those who run, work at, and bust their butts to maintain them. I'm one of them. You will never see me take a swipe at anyone and contribute facts over opinion.
To clear up an error...marketing is an income statement item, it's not on the balance sheet.
Feels free to come on out and see the place for yourself.
Chris,
Thank you for adding to this discussion. As someone who is increasingly interested in the economics of golf, I find your posts very helpful. It sounds like there is a very special sense of place at Dismal beyond the golf, and I very much look forward to experiencing it this coming June! Many thanks.
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Scott
First, I'm not in trial here nor am I here for you to pick apart every word I say. You have now become offensive and that, sir, is uncalled for. My comments contribute, yours have not. I happliy share information about a business model and why we do what we do. You have gone out of your way to find flaws and faults and to assess motive where, simply, none exists. Our low cost to join isn't me selling, it is stating a fact. Our food being very good isn't selling, its simply the truth.
You obviously haven't noticed but I am very much a Ballyneal supporter and am a supporter of all things golf. I love the game and both the people who work in it and enjoy it. What is really disingenuous is your making accusations towards a person you don't know. I'm not selling memberships here, I contributing firsthand knowledge and experience and am happy to answer questions others may have, or to clarify the unclear. For that, you take offense and accuse, and that is really is silly.
Scott, let me ask YOU a simple question...What have your last two posts contributed to the thread or the site? If you want to one up me or match wits, I surrender.
If you don't like my contributions here, I'm ok with that. Each of the quotes you took time to post here describe our business and our model, within the world of golf, are were made in context to the topic or previous posts. They show what works for us, at a point in an industry where what works matters very much.
You can put the guns down, my friend. I come in peace and am not guilty of your now silly and rude accusations. Its an old trick, if you can't argue the facts, attack the messenger. Are YOU protecting or sensitive about something? Sure seems like it for you spent a ton of time researching my contributions and posting them absent any context. See how easy accusations are? Silly, huh?
While you probably don't deserve a response for ungentlemanly behaviour, Jay explained he played Dismal River (dang, there I go selling again?) before the club even opened, many years ago, before I ever saw the place. He may well have been charged a high amount and I never begin by doubting honest men. I took no exception, others did, I invited him to come back. Probably just like Ballyneal, mistakes were made here. Maybe we should open that up for a full vetting but I don't believe that would be the right thing. Maybe it could help other good people from making them. I'll wait for you to start that thread.
Dick, many thanks for the nice post. I very much enjoyed spending time with you as well, and hope to see you again very soon. I hope to hear more about Santa Claus and your recent January golf in Green Bay! Sorry you had to read through the crap to see something nice.
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Scott,
Wow, more silly accusations. How nice. Lets lance that boil, shall we? I talk to a ton of people about joining Dismal River - do it all the time. We have several Sand Hills members at Dismal, all were here before we acquired the club. We have Prairie Club members and may well have a Ballynealer or two as well. That is none of my business and, despite your questions, nor is it any of yours. If a Dismal member asked me about Ballyneal, I would heartily encourage them to inquire. You see, we don't say bad things about other clubs...it serves no purpose.
Here are the facts - I invited Jim Colton to join Dismal, but did so before I knew anything about Ballyneal or any rough waters. Unlike you, I don't live and breathe what goes on there but any conversations I may have are between that person and me, and certainly none of your affair. Even if I did, so what? Many people are members of multiple clubs out this way and it is quite common. Rather, I did it because I admire Jim a great deal and though he would be a good member. Still do. I last saw Jim at Tom Doak's Renaissance Cup at Bandon and extended the invite soon after returning home. Was he somehow off limits? I believe he played with a good and mutual mutual friend, Ben Sims, who speaks very highly of Jim, as did Tom Doak. Here's the clincher: I also...wait for it...wait....wait...asked Jim, should he accept the invitation, to remain a member at Ballyneal if he joined Dismal River. So much for poaching, huh? You may confirm that yourself with him if you wish, he probably still has the invitation. Fact is, we are looking for good people, he is good people, and good people make great clubs. I won't wait for an apology for I expect the silly innuendo to continue for you seem to really be tied in knots in it. As far as dark motives or great conspiracies, they don't exist. Thanks a bunch for trying to slander me and question my character yet again in a public forum with silly and completely baseless accusations. Any other questions?
Other than Adam Clayman, who has become a very good friend, I don't believe I know any other members of Ballyneal aside from John Kirk, making it 3 of what, a total 75? You may ask Adam yourself, he and I have never discussed who at Ballyneal we should approach. That's not what friends do. Thus, I can't recall offering any the opportunity to join Dismal River. I don't have thier membership list nor do I want it. You see Scott, we want people who want to be a member of Dismal River. If they belong somewhere else, we don't much care, we don't have the weird obsession with such things that you seem to. It is quite possible some have (horrors!) approached us, but I wouldn't expect them to disclose they are affiliated with Ballyneal or Bellybutton Hills. You are right about one thing, Scott, we do offer good people invitations, and respond (kindly and professionally) to inquiries, most every day. After all, that is the business we are in. As Ely Callaway once said..."we sell fun", and are busy trying to build a great club.
Is the interrogation now over? Might I suggest you visit Rans recent post about participation here and I hope he is reading your posts. I have never crossed you but you have crossed the line this evening, and that is a shame. Challenging a persons character serves no purpose, other than revealing your own faults for everyone here to see. You've done a fine job at that tonight.
I would ask a favor of you. The next time you wish to make an accusation, please have facts, not innuendo, to back them up. If you don't, you look silly and I hate seeing that. Honestly, it makes me sick.
Pax
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Chris,
You obviously haven't noticed but I am very much a Ballyneal supporter and am a supporter of all things golf.
Did you or did you not approach Ballyneal members with invitations to join Dismal River at a special low price late last year, at the very time that Ballyneal was in rough water and was trying to sort out its future?
Harsh! I am not sure where you are going with this, but I am certain it can't end well.
Ciao
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Chris,
We obviously see things quite differently given you can't comprehend how quotes such as the seven I included in reply #194 could possibly constitute a sales pitch.
That's fine, it takes all types, but if you read those quotes -- and they are just a selection -- and don't see a sales pitch, well, we're obviously very different people. Like I said, I don't really care if people want to advertise for members here, but let's just call it what it is.
The Dismal River members seem to love the place and good on them for that. I've never suggested there's anything wrong with the course or club, despite your suggestions otherwise.
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Chris:
I don't think you have done anything wrong by providing information about your business model, or expressing your personal opinion about the quality experience you offer. You obviously run a good operation there at DR, and you're proud of it. Good luck to you, I say!
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Chris,
We obviously see things quite differently given you can't comprehend how quotes such as the seven I included in reply #194 could possibly constitute a sales pitch.
Scott,
If one was being bitchy they would be curious as to why a professional journalist with a link to his personal blog in the signature of every single post he has made on this website is so concerned with someone using this site to advertise. :)
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Dave,
If you can think of a way for me to make 10 cents out of the blog, I'll give you five cents. ;D If I'd started that blog to make money then, three years later, I think I'd have to class it as an abject failure. Nope, that's just some fun. When you spend your days writing about politics, murder and war, it's nice to have something on the side that you enjoy writing about.
And, to repeat myself once more, I have no issue with Chris using GCA.com to advertise his business, I just struggle to understand why he continues to deny that's what he is doing.
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So this is Scott and his "not creating drama where there is no reason for any"?
Does anyone else find it a bit scary and stalker-esque that Scott can find all of those quotes going back to the time Chris joined the site and post them so quickly? Or, has he been waiting for this moment all the while, feverishly reading all of Chris's posts, saving them and looking for the chance to go after Chris like he did Pat Ruddy? God knows how many other databases of quotes he has stored up, ready to "take down" the next victim.
Ran asked that people think about whether their posts contributed anything to this site before they hit the button. What contribution can possibly be made by Scott and his little attempts at investigative journalism? I wonder if Ran has the same affinity for the English tabloid rags that he does the golf architecture...
And Scott, if you didn't have a problem with the perceived sales pitch, you probably wouldn't have 18 months worth of quotes saved on your computer. Thanks for sharing your baseless inferences and the purported inferences of un-named "others."
Like I said, you've showed countless times what you agenda is, time to give it up and go back to blogging about all the courses you've played.
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Unbelievable. Rock bottom stuff here.
Chris,
Never change.
Scott,
Read JC Jones' posts and think about them, don't dismiss them.
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Eric,
I count myself among the ranks of many who long ago stopped thinking about Jason's posts.
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So...how about that cost per round at Ballyneal? Do I hear 500? 500?
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A food fight was mentioned earlier, I think this might be more appropriate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvR6d08L3nc
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ)
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"And, to repeat myself once more, I have no issue with Chris using GCA.com to advertise his business, I just struggle to understand why he continues to deny that's what he is doing."
There you go again, Scott. You seem to spend a tremendous amount of time "struggling to understand" what you obviously can't, don't, and probably shouldn't spend much time trying to. I don't know who may have wronged you to make you so angry, but it certainly wasn't me. As we wake up, one must wonder what really is your agenda? Is it the purity of GCA? Is it hatred of Dismal River? Do you object when all people share their experience here? Highlighting my posts, absent any context, is creepy and has no place here.
Have you provided any basis for your accusation of last evening? Nope. Have you apologized for false claims that have no support in facts? Nope. Or, was the task to smear me regardless the facts? Seem so. That is sad.
Jason is right on here. Have any of your posts contributed to GCA? Did you share anything? Did you add value to the site or the topic? Funny that word, value.
I post here about Dismal and our model in the first person, freely and openly sharing experience and explaining why we do what we do with friends and for the benefit of those who may be interested. If you aren't interested, feel free to pass over my contributions. Disagree with what I may say but please don't question my integrity with innuendo. That really is silly.
Smearing people is gross. Baseless innuendo is wrong in all forms. Stalking people is creepy. Attempting to otherwise define good people is just plain wrong. None has a place here.
Enjoy the day! Each one is a gift and you never get it back. Make a difference. Be kind. Add value.
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This entire thread is gross.
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This entire thread is gross.
Actually, I think when both John Belushi and Joan Baez are posted, it is just beginning to get fun. ;D Made me laugh in the morning. Thanks guys. Speaking of laughing, JK started this thread and has pretty much disappeared. My guess is he is laughing too. Start a thread on Ballyneal and see that it takes less than a page for Dismal to pop up. Always priceless.
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For what it is worth, there is a lot of selling that goes on in every day life. Much of it on this site is not for commercial purposes, but it is selling all the same.
Nothing that Chris has posted raised the hairs on the back of my neck, and, for many years, I've been as cynical as they come. My hope is that the candor of those who know and are willing to share with the rest of us is not tempered by replies such as Scott's (I gather that some have been deleted). I have no idea what burr poked through, but having reacted badly on an occasion or two myself, I trust that this is but a temporary, one-time irriitation.
I greatly admire the 1%- I wish I was one of them and want to encourage them to do even better. I have zero doubt that the DR experience is worthy of this status and I hope to be there for a taste when Sarge is cutting his steak.
SeanA,
Interesting thoughts on value. Perhaps it is in my GNA (you know, the old yarn about Seve- "you can take the boy out of the caddie shack, but you can never take the caddie shack out of the boy" attributed to him by his then father-in-law), but seldom do the $500 rounds achieve the expectations, whereas the $50 rounds often do. Walton Heath- Old at nearly $200 was nice, but the experience was hardly more satisfying that at Liphook for well less than half the price.
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This entire thread is gross.
Actually, I think when both John Belushi and Joan Baez are posted, it is just beginning to get fun. ;D Made me laugh in the morning. Thanks guys. Speaking of laughing, JK started this thread and has pretty much disappeared. My guess is he is laughing too. Start a thread on Ballyneal and see that it takes less than a page for Dismal to pop up. Always priceless.
Jim,
Most of this happened last night while I was sleeping. A hater's got to hate but some of us still need to sleep. Here is the thread where Scott Warren unsuccessfully tried to destroy Pat Ruddy using the same techniques.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44032.50.html
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FYI...it appears that some of Scott's comments have been deleted. Thank goodness.
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Thank goodness.
Mac, you are so pure in spirit ;D
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Gee whiz, what a donnybrook.
Who's our next victim? I nominate MikeVegis@Kiawah! Just kidding, of course, I still have Kumbaya in my head from the 2012 manifesto...
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This entire thread is gross.
Actually, I think when both John Belushi and Joan Baez are posted, it is just beginning to get fun. ;D Made me laugh in the morning. Thanks guys. Speaking of laughing, JK started this thread and has pretty much disappeared. My guess is he is laughing too. Start a thread on Ballyneal and see that it takes less than a page for Dismal to pop up. Always priceless.
Jim,
Most of this happened last night while I was sleeping. A hater's got to hate but some of us still need to sleep. Here is the thread where Scott Warren unsuccessfully tried to destroy Pat Ruddy using the same techniques.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44032.50.html
JakaB
Have you actually read the posts linked? While it is true I have a lot of time for Scott, it seems quite plainly obvious that no line was crossed in this discussion with Pat R. If anything, Pat R lost it a bit. Nothing worse happens on this site than the implied smear campaign. You oughta be a politician because you seem to have this thing down to an art.
Ciao
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Sean,
Woodward and Bernstein tried to destroy Nixon, they made a mountain out of a mole hill and almost took down the country. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
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Sean,
Woodward and Bernstein tried to destroy Nixon, they made a mountain out of a mole hill and almost destroyed the country. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
Hhhmm, W&B didn't destroy Nixon, Nixon was already a long-time cretin who had sold his soul. I don't think I can say the same of a blind squirrel.
Ciao
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Sean,
Woodward and Bernstein tried to destroy Nixon, they made a mountain out of a mole hill and almost destroyed the country. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
Hhhmm, W&B didn't destroy Nixon, Nixon was already a long-time cretin who had sold his soul. I don't think I can say the same of a blind squirrel.
Ciao
I was 14 when Nixon resigned, 16 when the movie All the President's Men was released and 48 when I viewed the movie Frost/Nixon. I love Nixon now and throw up in my mouth every time I see Carl Bernstein on MSNBC wearing a bad sweater trying to digest his latest double helping of biscuits and gravy. Sad to say that I put more value in motivation and technique than the facts.
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Sean,
Woodward and Bernstein tried to destroy Nixon, they made a mountain out of a mole hill and almost destroyed the country. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
Hhhmm, W&B didn't destroy Nixon, Nixon was already a long-time cretin who had sold his soul. I don't think I can say the same of a blind squirrel.
Ciao
I was 14 when Nixon resigned, 16 when the movie All the President's Men was released and 48 when I viewed the movie Frost/Nixon. I love Nixon now and throw up in my mouth every time I see Carl Bernstein on MSNBC wearing a bad sweater trying to digest his latest double helping of biscuits and gravy. Sad to say that I put more value in motivation and technique than the facts.
"Motivation" may be the word of the day.
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Hey, I thought civility was the word of the day!
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Hey, I thought civility was the word of the day!
If we all remember to only write that which we would say to someone face to face over the dinner table, it can be! ;D
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Sean,
Woodward and Bernstein tried to destroy Nixon, they made a mountain out of a mole hill and almost destroyed the country. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
Hhhmm, W&B didn't destroy Nixon, Nixon was already a long-time cretin who had sold his soul. I don't think I can say the same of a blind squirrel.
Ciao
I was 14 when Nixon resigned, 16 when the movie All the President's Men was released and 48 when I viewed the movie Frost/Nixon. I love Nixon now and throw up in my mouth every time I see Carl Bernstein on MSNBC wearing a bad sweater trying to digest his latest double helping of biscuits and gravy. Sad to say that I put more value in motivation and technique than the facts.
JakaB
It is a peculiar condition of the American public that can condemn a man like Tiger for his transgressions yet honour a man like Nixon despite his multiple abuses of power. Okay, you are not alone in steadfast support of a schmuck. Check that, Clinton was a schmuck, Nixon was a criminal (what was it, 40 something guys involved in Watergate gound guilty?) saved from prison time by that sniveling fellow Ford in some shady back-room dealings to trade power for freedom. BUT, what does any of this talk of blind allegiance to a criminal shown not to be fit for office have to do with Scott? Read the link you provided and make an argument man. You may actually learn something about yourself.
Ciao