Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: JNC Lyon on December 29, 2011, 09:04:37 PM
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I know this topic has been revisited a few times on this site, but I wanted to bring it back. I've been thinking about it a little bit today. I'm missing golf in the Northeast, as I always begin to do in the early part of winter, and the first holes I always return are the zany ones. These are the holes that are the norm--they get me jacked up to play golf, they make me daydream about golf architecture when I'm doing other things, and they generally inspire me.
So, naturally, I wanted to explore my fascination with quirk in the best way possible: a list! The first obvious choice was the classic eclectic 18 list. But how conventional would that be for a list meant to celebrate unconventional architecture. So, I cut it down to 12 holes, both in the spirit of the holidays and as a nod to one of my favorite quirky courses, Prestwick.
So c'mon! Give me your 12 favorite holes! I don't want 11, 3, 13, 18, or 36 holes. 12 will do it. Also, another constraint: don't pick a quirky hole that is generally thought of as a great golf hole. Exhibit A: The Pit at North Berwick. We all know this hole is great and quirky, but at this point it's generally accepted as a great hole, almost devoid of controversy. Gents, let's dig a little deeper than that.
My 12 holes:
10 at Yale Sure, Yale is almost universally loved on this site, but it is almost universally hated by the college golfers that compete there every year, along with any other prototypical modern golfer. 10 might actually be one of the tamer holes on the golf course, but it is outrageous compared to most run-of-the-mill medium-range fours. The tee shot across the entrance road and over a small cliff sets the tone, but it does nothing to prepare for the second shot. Straight up a mountain, over a fearsome Raynor bunker, to a green that, despite its incredible size, seems impossible to hit in regulation. The fun only starts at the green, which one of the wildest on a course filled with extreme greens. A true classic. I'll argue that Raynor's most interesting holes are his great non-templates, and the two choices from Yale on my list provide some of my best evidence for that argument.
5 at The Country Club This course gets no discussion on the site, which, frankly, sucks. However, I know a few GCAers played it recently (Big E? That Tennessee Tech game over yet? ;D), and I love to see a little more discussion. Like Yale, you could pick a few from this layout, but I choose the 5th. This medium-length four is one that gets no attention from anyone. I'll never forget how blown away I was when I got to that tee shot: the 3rd fairway directly to left, and nothing but a giant rock outcropping in front of you. Of course, after a few plays, you'd figure out the line off the tee that gives the best angle into the green. The green itself is maybe the steepest on the course, and it sits below some funky-lookin' apartments on the other side of a barbed-wire fence. Urban!
7 at Byrncliff Picked this course as one of my biggest surprises of the year. It combines killer terrain (it's the only Upstate New York course I know that plays to both sides of a narrow north-south valley, the kind that are so prevalent in this region) with some flair around the greens. 7 at Byrncliff gets the best of both worlds, with some craters-of-the-moon centerline bunkers as a bonus. I would love to play it with the pin cut on the tiny back shelf--I'm guessing the stroke average would go up a shot or two.
18 at Brora Brora is quirky in its fauna (sheep roam the golf course) and its locale (the northernmost great course in the world?), but the layout itself is actually fairly straightforward. Yet, when you turn the corner after an all-Scotland par four at 17, you reach one of the strangest, and arguably one of the most fearsome, finishers you will see. It's a 190-yard par three with a giant chasm taking a chomp out of the front of the green. Any shot that does not get several paces onto the green will be regurgitated some 30 yards back into the bottomless pit that is the fairway. 3 is, uh, 3 is a good score here.
Four descriptions down, more to come...
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The 2nd at Galen Hall: 500 or so yards reachable in two if you hit 4iron off the tee on the correct line and then launch a rocket down the hill... with the same club... or.... blast driver on the aggressive line and have a wedge into the green. Do neither correctly and the real fun begins...
The 11th at Reading Country Club: A half hour or so from Galen Hall, the 11th here is a stellar alps-like hole over a rock formation to a skinny little green. Not much earth moved on this one and worth the drive out from Philadelphia.
The 6th at Merion West: Another drop shot hole, but in this case achievable with a half-wedge shot.
(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/86/261655493_12cd52aabd_b.jpg)
The 18th at Bethpage Green: Bethpage's quirky golf course finishes with this neat little two shotters to one of the best green sites on the property.
(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/223344208_1e3b6ab037_b.jpg)
Okay John... you're next four please!
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These are not in any order other than the order they came to mind...
9 at Rivermont...short par 4, plays down hill then uphill to a punchbowl green...but the front of the punchbowl has a chip in it and you can see the green...kind of. That chip is protected by a nasty little bunker. The green is also not your standard punchbowl. It has a whopty-do and a stage on the right side of it. Unique and interesting. All the golf architecture fanatics I take to The 'mont love this hole and the green, but the regular members hate it. Always the sign of a good hole to me.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont9approach.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Rivermont9frontbunker.jpg)
6 at Dismal River...again a short-ish par 4. Plays over a ravine/gorge to a smallish landing area, then uphill to a punchbowl/saddle green. If I am treking half way across the country, I want some unique golf. Dismal gives it to me...as does this hole.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DismalRiver6.jpg)
3 at Dormie...short par 4 (see any trends here?) that plays uphill to the best Coore and Crenshaw green I've ever seen. Great undulations that make for cool putts and wonderful chips.
8 at Renaissance...that green is out of this world and the wall next to it is really cool. Oh yeah, it is a short par 4.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Renaissance8IV.jpg)
15 at Canterbury...yeah, yeah, yeah...short par 4....green is way up hill on the approach shot with a sloping green.
17 at Pete Dye Golf Club...truly amazing green. Guess the par on the hole.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/PDGC17greenIV.jpg)
5 at Cuscowilla...options off the tee, carry the bunker or swing around it. Crazy domed green. (short par 4)
12 at Askernish...PAR 5!!!...dual fairways...one hidden off the tee, one visible. Take the visible one and you've got a bllind approach...take the blind one and you've got a visible approach...green slants away from the approach shot...cows probably will be a fronting hazard to the green.
6 at Olde Stone...looks like a mundane short-ish par 4, but a hidden bunker lies in wait right smack dab in the middle of the fairway. Really cool!!
10 at Arrowheard Pointe...par 5 that snakes around left then right then left...creak bisects the fairway near the green...I suppose it is a bit like 13 at Augusta...but nevertheless it is pretty cool.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/ArrowheadP10approach.jpg)
9 at Longshadow...(again) short par 4 that cuts 90 degree right then plays down hill and over a creek to a neat and smallish green.
11 (?) at Southshore...par 3 that plays from one mountain peak/hill top to another. Neat shot!!
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5 at The Country Club This course gets no discussion on the site, which, frankly, sucks. However, I know a few GCAers played it recently (Big E? That Tennessee Tech game over yet? ;D), and I love to see a little more discussion. Like Yale, you could pick a few from this layout, but I choose the 5th. This medium-length four is one that gets no attention from anyone. I'll never forget how blown away I was when I got to that tee shot: the 3rd fairway directly to left, and nothing but a giant rock outcropping in front of you. Of course, after a few plays, you'd figure out the line off the tee that gives the best angle into the green. The green itself is maybe the steepest on the course, and it sits below some funky-lookin' apartments on the other side of a barbed-wire fence. Urban!
;D The Golden Eagles (Women's team) nearly pulled it out against Marshall (who were the better team), but came up a bit short on the last few buckets. A great effort though.
Ah, # 5 at Brookline...I've played it just the one time, but I suppose I 'figured out' :-* the preferred line of play is a pushed drive into the trees down the right hand side, leaving but one option: play a ground-hugging 4 iron that ends up rolling (and rolling) all the way to the edge of the green and then miraculously make the 15 footer for birdie. Nothing to this game! As for the quirk...hmm. Pretty much like you said; the big rock and the disco days apartments up top are pretty funk-y!
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Last time I played #5 at TCC was in the round of 32 in the Mass. Am. three years ago and they actually placed the tee on the mound usually containing the ladies tee. It played 305 straightway from there, and both my opponent and I hit our tee shots into the front bunker. The pin was just over it, and neither of us could get up and down. It was a fun hole from there!
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Damnit! Everyone is stealing my choices. First Kyle swipes the 2nd at Galen Hall (admittedly a reserve choice, but still, high on the list), and then Mac goes and takes 6 at Dismal River! Time to recharge the batteries, shut down the engines, get back to neutral, and give my next four choices!
6 at Dismal River Yes, this one has to stay on the list. I ran through every one of the holes at Dismal River, and while there is plenty of quirk out there, 6 best fits my list. The huge fairway on the far side of the chasm, the strange bunkering, the elevated punchbowl green--it's all weird and awesome. As a side note, I think this is one reason why Dismal River still gets mixed reviews from its esteemed critics. Nobody expects quirk from a Nicklaus course, but they get in spades. While a place like Ballyneal (just, you know, a random example) errs on the side of safety except for a few spots (3, 7, 13), Dismal River pulls out all the stops. It might not come off completely in a couple places, but the course is brash and bold and all the better for it.
1 at North Berwick Every list of quirky courses needs a short par four from North Berwick, but obviously I couldn't pick 13 after my initial post. This is the second strangest start I've ever had to a round of golf: 5-iron off the tee, pulled about 30 yards, then a punch 8-iron to two feet for a birdie. The tee shot is very cool, with the walking path in play, and the clifftop green is a thrill. You know the place is different when you see this hole. Some may hate the hole, but I love it, and, of course, that's what this list is all about.
7 at Merion (West) K-Harris, I'll see your 6th at Merion West and raise you the 7th. After much deliberation and gnashing of teeth, I've come to the conclusion that the 7th is the quirkiest of the three holes in quirk corner (8 could take the crown, but the greensite is to conventional for this list. The tee shot is no more than a 5-iron, but a lot can go wrong with a pond, stream, and roadway lurking. The green looks no bigger than your living room, and a hundred-yard flip suddenly becomes the most intimidating shot of the day. This is the closest thing to backyard golf I've seen on a regulation course (or even an executive course).
11 at Morgan Hill Man, there are some funky holes at Morgan Hill, and there are definitely better ones than the 11th. However, the 11th is so stupidly fun that it has to be on here. A roped drive here could find it's way onto the green, or it could wind up in a Weber grill. The iron out to the left is also a legitimate play, but it could spell trouble if not properly executed. Of course, all the fun is the last 100 yards, which is all fairway and straight down the mountain to a benched greensite. Whether running or flying, the golfer better have his best feel for the approach, or his ball could wind up in any number of places. Transition hole? Maybe. A blast to play? You bet your ass.
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John,
Do you have a job yet?
I would like to submit a few Myopia Hunt Club holes for your quirky poll.
The quirkiest to my eye are the 1st, 13th, and 16th.
For the readers who have not had the privilege...
Hole no. 1.
Uphill and very short par 4. Almost a blind whack up the hill with a 210 yard club leaves a chip to a very small green with enough right to left slope to make a three put quite possible.
Hole no. 13
Straight par 4 but the second shot is severely uphill over a crap weed field. Perhaps a 3 club upgrade for the hill. Green area is so severely sloped as to send balls back into the hillside weed field or, if you are lucky, on bunker to the short left,
Hole no. 16
Downhill par 3 about 150 yard carry to a green that slopes away from front to back. Green will not hold an approach except in a few areas to the back sides. Shots to the center will often proceed into the backside bunker.
Sorry, no pictures.
Malcolm
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Actually, here is another quirky hole from Myopia.
Number 9, a short par three with a very long narrow green which plays to around 150 yards from the blues.
Green is about 9 yards wide, 30 yards long and is surrounded by bunkers at least 6 to 7 feet deep.
I do have a picture from the tee..
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6598890113_1eb68d1597_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/59563474@N04/6598890113/)
IMG_0043.JPG (http://www.flickr.com/photos/59563474@N04/6598890113/) by gacmalc (http://www.flickr.com/people/59563474@N04/), on Flickr
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I am having a hard time coming up with really good quirky holes. Usually, the slightly off colour holes are either just good, bad or indifferent architecture - not really quirky. I keep coming back to holes with walls or holes which use "outside" agents such as tracks very well. There are a few holes which are unusual enough to be considered funky and that I like a load: #11 Temple & #9 Seascale come to mind. #16 N Berwick hits over a wall, but the real funk is the crazy green.
In addition to the above three, so far I have
#4 St Enodoc
#13 N Berwick
#16 Aberdovey
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ABERDOVEY%20GC/13March2010269.jpg?t=1268653999)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ABERDOVEY%20GC/13March2010270.jpg?t=1268654025)
#17 TOC
Edit: add Lahinch's Dell to the list
Ciao
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What's quirky about 4 at St Enodoc, Sean?
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The Klondyke, Dell, and 13 at Dooks belong on any quirky list.
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What's quirky about 4 at St Enodoc, Sean?
For those that don't know St Enodoc, the green in the foreground is #3. The players behind the 3rd green are on the 4th tee, a sub 300 yard par 4 with the green right of the bunkers top left.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ST%20ENODOC/30March2009057.jpg?t=1242157445)
From the tee everything is visible, but the landscape is still confusing.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ST%20ENODOC/30March2009059.jpg?t=1242157606)
Just having the boundary wall 15 feet from the flag is pretty funky to me. Now chuck in the circumstances of the rest of the hole and this definitely qualifies as funky. Better yet, this hole is one of the supreme examples of great architecture being created by a seemingly hopeless piece of land. Not many archies would have the balls to create this hole.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ST%20ENODOC/30March2009060.jpg?t=1242157671)
Ciao
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What's quirky about 4 at St Enodoc, Sean?
For those that don't know St Enodoc, the green in the foreground is #3. The players behind the 3rd green are on the 4th tee, a sub 300 yard par 4 with the green right of the bunkers top left.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ST%20ENODOC/30March2009057.jpg?t=1242157445)
From the tee everything is visible, but the landscape is still confusing.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ST%20ENODOC/30March2009059.jpg?t=1242157606)
Just having the boundary wall 15 feet from the flag is pretty funky to me. Now chuck in the circumstances of the rest of the hole and this definitely qualifies as funky. Better yet, this hole is one of the supreme examples of great architecture being created by a seemingly hopeless piece of land. Not many archies would have the balls to create this hole.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ST%20ENODOC/30March2009060.jpg?t=1242157671)
Ciao
Sean
4th at St Enodoc is a very good hole it asks a lot of questions should I risk it or not. I wouldnt say that it is quirky - the 10th is the most quirkiest hole on the Church course.
Cheers
Ben
Quirky holes that I can think of at present
5th at Painswick
12th at Burnham + Berrow
7th at Pennard
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Ben
Its most interesting how different folks view quirk! Yes, #10 at St Enodoc is quirky, but I don't think it would make my list of favourites. I admire the hole for its controversial/difficult nature.
I wouldn't consider Burnham's 12th as in the least quirky. Talk to me. Same for #7 (this is just great architecture pure and simple). Yes, Painswick's 5th (among a ton of holes) is a bit funky, but it wouldn't make a list of my favourites. #10 is probably more funky with the tiny green, but its not a favourite.
Ciao
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Are quirky holes found on courses created by name architects, or are they more commonly known as "accidents at birth," as found on rural, homespun, mom/pop layouts where someone simply asked "why can't we put it here and the other it there?"
I'll leave the Coudersport holes to Mr. Lynch.
Does Quirk subside after a number of playings? Is Quirk like Blind, only thus once or twice?
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First four that come to mind from recent play:
Pac Dunes #6:
Might be my favorite short 4 ever. Hard to match the pucker factor of the approach or the up and down if you miss. Simply a wonderful green. As with many good quirk holes you can make birdie or X.
Old Mac #7:
The Ocean hole. Essentially you are forced to play some type of creative second (or 3rd!) shot here. The size of the hill, the blind runoff on the other side and the ever present wind make this a new classic template. Kind of a litmus test for quirk in my mind as many will dismiss it as a gimmick hole to get up to the ocean view and the halfway house, but I think it's great and very subtly conceived.
Tamarack #11:
Punchbowl. Longish par 4 with a subtle dogleg, strategic bunkering and a blind second that drops down 20 (?) feet to a fantastic green. One has to take the hill into account to get the proper bounce onto the green and not run all the way to the back.
Kingsley #9:
Another quirk litmus test hole. Anything from a 1 to an X is possible. Nothing better than using the slopes to either stick it tight or make a seemingly impossible up and down. I've seen a single digit hdcp blow up to a 13 by being stubborn and my 12 year old want nothing more than to keep hitting balls at dusk to try and hole one. I prefer #13 (another solid candidate), but this is the quirkiest with the most local knowledge needed.
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Isn't #6 Pacific Dunes the negative image of #14 Bandon Trails?
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Ron,
Not really. They both play downhill off the tee to an elevated green, although the scale is dramatically different. Besides, BT 14 is a pushover since they took the teeth out of the green. ;)
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I think I have a fairly high definition of quirk so find this a very difficult question to answer without resorting to the stereotypical options like 13 NB or 17 TOC.
Below I have three photographs of a hole at The Machrie (6 or 7?). Normally I would not consider blindness in itself to be quirky, but here I can't resist.
On this par four of approximately 380 yards, the tee shot plays over these huge sand dunes.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc483/mpgoldstein/IMG_0410.jpg)
Then the landing area greets you as follows: (good luck or a high soft shot will see your ball kick softly and not straight right into the hay)
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc483/mpgoldstein/IMG_0411.jpg)
Finally, the green is entirely blind in a steep bowl.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc483/mpgoldstein/IMG_0412.jpg)
I've included a couple of other holes that came to mind in response to JC's question. They are definitely not my favourite twelve holes but do satisfy my 'quirk threshold'.
13 Morfontaine
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc483/mpgoldstein/DSC08364.jpg)
Hole ? at Bondi - note the lighthouse directly in play when the wind is even softly coming off the right. It bounced two balls in my group back at least 50 yards.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc483/mpgoldstein/DSC02936.jpg)
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JNC,
The 5th at TCC Brookline is an underrated hole, but do you really think it's that quirky? I can think of a few others (#2, #3 (!), #4, #7, #11 (!)) that might be even quirkier.
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What's quirky about 4 at St Enodoc, Sean?
Scott
I don't know that hole but I've been asking myself the same question on some of the Scottish holes already listed, for instance NB has a couple of quirky holes (IMO) but the first isn't one of them. Likewise, while Brora provides some nice golf, I can't think of any really quirky holes including the 18th.
Perhaps I just have a higher tolerance of quirk than JNC.
Niall
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quirk, perhaps the toughest definition in golf. Everyone probably has a slightly different take on it. To me, it's something that jumps off the page. Not expecting to see what is there. Prestwick was my Intro to Quirk 101, Although it is probably the poster child and therefore fails in the original posts criteria (I can think of almost a half dozen off the top of my head), I submit that run of 15-17 as the best stretch of quirk I have encountered.
Some other holes that haven't been mentioned:
#4 Spyglass. Never encountered a green like it before
#7 & #8 Crystal Downs (7's green and 8's fairway)
#13 Shore Acres - hitting up and out of a ravine only to have to cross it again on the approach
#4 Royal St Georges, those sleepered fairway bunkers.
#14 Cog Hill #3
For the most part, it strikes me that most of holes with quirk end up being rather short par 4's. So, I think it is used deliberately as a primary defense to counter the lack of yardage.
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Niall...JNC isn't very opinionated...
Michael, don't you get a re-do when you hit the lighthouse?
Are "quirk" and "stupid" mutually exclusive? Perhaps one man's "q" is another man's "s."
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14 at Blackstone
7 and 12 at Ballyneal
3 at Yale
16 at Ravisloe
4 at Barnbougle Dunes
3 at Lost Farm
8 at RMW
17 at Kingsley
5 and 7 at Greywalls
17 at Bayside
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Sven...great call on #3 at Yale...I thought it went left, so I aimed at the left side of the fairway...yup.
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Michael, don't you get a re-do when you hit the lighthouse?
Don't you get a re-do when you hit it in the trees?
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Nope, but when we hit power lines over here in the colonies, we get a re-do and a really cool zipping sound. Trees bow to no one.
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Trees bow to no one.
Nor do lighthouses.
I think the use of buildings as hazards is under-rated. People rave about stone walls (13 NBWL, 6 at Muirfield, 8 at Renaissance, 17 TOC) so why not buildings? There are some (1 at Balcomie, 7 at Pennard) but they don't tend to be as well known.
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Hah, good story here...When we played Mike Strantz's Stonehouse in Williamsburg, VA a few years back, we were under the impression that the actual stone house was on the course somewhere, in play. You can imagine how cantankerous we were as we trundled up 18.
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What's quirky about 4 at St Enodoc, Sean?
Scott
I don't know that hole but I've been asking myself the same question on some of the Scottish holes already listed, for instance NB has a couple of quirky holes (IMO) but the first isn't one of them. Likewise, while Brora provides some nice golf, I can't think of any really quirky holes including the 18th.
Perhaps I just have a higher tolerance of quirk than JNC.
Niall
I like to think of myself as having a pretty high tolerance for quirk, but, of course, I'm an American golfer, so that could dilute my quirk threshold a bit. Even so, I'd argue that 18 at Brora and 1 at North Berwick. Bear in mind, I did point out that Brora is not a particularly quirky golf course (aside from the sheep fences), but I think that 18th hole is very wild. I've never seen a par three quite like it, let alone a finishing hole. The ball can hit 5-10 yards onto the front of the green and be rejected some 30 yards back down into a pit. If there is another finishing hole like it, I'd love to see it.
1 at North Berwick? That's plenty quirky as well. The fairway is enormous, close to 100 yards wide I'm guessing, and the green runs away from the player while setting 30 feet above the player on the edge of the Firth of Forth. Again, I've never seen a starting hole like this one (although maybe a couple stranger, like Prestwick's opener, but I didn't include that because it is so well-known and well-regarded already).
I think the main component of quirky holes is two-fold: 1) they have a feature or two that most holes do not have. 2) they have an illogical quality about them. I think both of those holes at North Berwick and Brora have those two things. All of that said, I'll try to dig a little deeper. Not as easy as I thought it would be!
And Ron's correct, I'm not very opinionated.
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JNC,
The 5th at TCC Brookline is an underrated hole, but do you really think it's that quirky? I can think of a few others (#2, #3 (!), #4, #7, #11 (!)) that might be even quirkier.
All of those are quirky (although you missed 10, which maybe quirkiest of all), but 5 is right up there too. The huge rock pile in front of the tee is something I still haven't seen to this day. The tee jutting into the 3rd fairway is all pretty wild. Combine that with a green that would be too steep for Merion and some neighboring Americana, you get a pretty unusual, quirky, and dare I say great, golf hole.
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John
Thanks for responding.
Imagine if you will, the dip in front of the 18th at Brora filled up with water such that it was a pond, or maybe even scrub, would that make it more conventional and less quirky ? Perhaps what is quirky for you here is the use of a run off as a "hazard" where perhaps with more fast and firm conditions over here that type of idea isn't as novel. Granted you perhaps don't get as many big swales or depressions as the one fronting the 18th Brora but the idea isn't unique, its basically a plateau green like many you see at Dornoch (various), Silloth (13th and 16th), Muirfield (13th ?), Renaissance (par 4 uphill 12th ?) etc.
Now the 1st at NB has perhaps two qualities that you touch upon that might be worth discussing as being quirky. The first is the width of the fairway, or to be more exact the width of the 1st and 18th fairways together. While not common this is not unique with TOC being the obvious example and if you ignore the bit of scruffy rough between the the two fairways you effectively have a double fairway at the 1st/18th at NB's other course, The Glen.
The second point you make is the truncated nature of the drive, which as you say is similar to Prestwick. I've never played with you but I saw you play a few shots at Dornoch and you've clearly got a very good swing, a very nice striker of the ball and someone no doubt used to playing from the middle of the fairway. Personally I prefer, or rather am required, to guddle my way round the course and am not adverse to playing from the rough which sometimes is the better option not only for the line in but because the ball sometimes sits up better in the rough. Having played NB about half a dozen times I've come to the conclusion I'm better off hitting long at that hole and playing my second from the gulley or side of the bank (or even the beach) rather than 50 yards further back down the fairway. In that sense, I simply don't see the hole the way you do. I'd be interested to hear from Simon as to how the members commonly play this hole. I suspect the better players probably play it the way you do while us mere mortals go the other way.
Niall
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A lot of the posts so far have been about holes at Yale and Merion and North Berwick and The Country Club and other great courses. And I agree that that a lot of those holes are great and quirky. But my really favorite quirky holes are at low-key courses that you'd never got out of your way to play. (Several of them apparently were too quirky for the average clientele, too detrimental to pace of play, or deemed too dangerous, and no longer exist in their quirk-filled glory.)
10th at Juniper Hills Riverside, Northborough, MA, 450 yards, Par 5: The fairway goes out straight in front of you for about 180 yards down the left side and 200 yards down the right. Then it ends in a pond, and you can't see any of the rest of the hole from the tee. So the smart play -- which I never made, not even once -- is to hit a mid-iron and play the hole as a three shotter.
After the pond, the hole turns left about 45 degrees. The nearest point of fairway on the other side is about a 225 yard carry, but for every yard the shot is off line in either direction the carry gets a yard or two longer. To the right, the carry is over the pond. To the left, the carry is over a public road that's out of bounds. Oh, and the shortest-carry line requires you to hit it directly over a bend in the road -- the aiming point is a telephone pole on the far side of the bend - and a bunch of big shrubs separating the course from the road.
Perhaps unsurpisingly, the hole no longer exists in this form. It's now a straightaway 400 yard par 4 with a mandatory 180 yard carry off the tee, and probably the worst hole on the course.
2nd at Stowaway, Stow, MA, 270 yards, Par 4: Stowaway is a nine-hole family-built affair with greens that are considerably shaggier than the fairways at most of the courses dicussed on the board. Five of the holes are pretty dull; the other four are all candidates for this list, but the second took the cake (again, until it was changed to remove the key element of quirk).
From the first green, you look to the left and see a stretch of fairway heading back in the direction from which you had just played. But that is not where you go to tee off. Instead, you walk forward from the green through about 50 yards of forest and up a bit of a hill. The first time you do it -- heck, the first few times you do it! -- you have no idea how you will possibly get to a point that can be used for playing golf, because the trees are thick and uninterrputed on all sides. Finally, you come to a tiny lledge with grass on it - and you still have no idea how it could possibly be a tee. Only when you stand on that tiny patch of grass and face about 135 degrees left from the direction in which you came do you see any sign of a golf hole.
What you see is the crest of a hill about 220 yards away, and the top of a flagstick down below on the other side of the hillcrest. Before that, all you see is trees in front of you - but the slope into the valley in front of the tee is steep enough thaty you're level with the tops of the trees. The goal is to make the 220-yard carry across the valley to hill crest, and to hit it straight enough that the ball with then bound down onto the shelf of green rather than the deep swales on either side of it (from which you could easily ping-pong the ball back and forth if you get a bad lie).
Again, this hole no longer exists in relevant form. They cut down all the trees in front of the tee, so now it's just a guardian variety down-then-up-then-down short par 4 without drama. I never went back to the course after the round where I first saw the hole denuded.
I'll edit this post to add a few more shortly.
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Stow Away...http://www.pasturegolf.com/courses/stowaway.htm
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My last four holes:
12 at Addington This is probably the most lauded of the holes on my list, though it is far from conventional. The blind tee shot, the weird manmade plateau at 210 from the green, the ring of heather in the middle of the fairway, the patch of heather in the middle of the ideal layup area, and the funky green set into the hillside all conspire to make this a wild ride. It is a true battle of man vs. nature. I remember cranking a drive on this hole the first time I played it, but I never saw it again. After two more plays, I absolutely love this par five, and it remains one of my holes I've seen. Addington needed a hole on this list, and the 12th certainly has enough quirk to be up there.
5 at Tumblebrook Very few GCAers have seen this one, but Redanboy and I ventured out there last spring. It's very bare bones, but it does have a couple of neat holes, and the 5th really stands out. It's a short par four playing along a hillside. There is out of bounds hard right, and a very steep drop to the left. Left of the green appears to be absolute death from the tee. However, the green is very steep from right to left, meaning a shot hit 20 yards left (where I hit it) has a better chance of a three than one missed to the right (where Mark hit it). Weird hole, weird little course, but a ton of fun.
18 at Hanover These New England courses seem to yield quirk in spades. A few of the moderns have it for sure, with some of it good (Canterbury Woods, Kettle Brook), some of it bad (Cyprian Keyes). Of course, they can't compete with the old-timers, and the Dartmouth golf course might take the cake. Back to back par threes, back to back par fives, a double fairway, back to back short fours, abandoned ski jumps, and a cross in the routing make this a zany one. 18 combines two of those features (the cross and the back-to-back fives) with a killer diagonal tee shot across a canyon and a ridgeline approach to a wild green. Love it or hate it, Hanover sure is different.
18 at Yale We'll go back to where we started, with a pretty obvious choice. Rock cliffs on the tee shot, an Alps option and ski jump on the second, and a giant green make this one an adventurous and phenomenal finish to a great golf course, as well as my quirky 12.
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Road hole on the Old Course
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How about some Strantz quirk-
1, 5 & 13 at Tobacco Road
3, 5, 12 & 14 at Royal New Kent
14 at Stonehouse (many have used other adjectives)
Haven't yet playedTot Hill but I think there's some serious quirk there.
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Chris:
Tot Hill is the quirkiest of them all.
WW
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I nominate about half the holes at Glen Mills.
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How about 17 at Crystal Downs? Where it looks like there is little room to miss the fairway, but it's an optical illusion. The wide rolls in the fairway are hidden. (16 at Black Mesa uses the same illusion to great effect...)
Chris, is 5 at Tobacco Road really that quirky? Maybe 1 at RNK instead?
How about a few holes at Ballyneal like 1, 3, 4 and 15?
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Ronald, you don't get to hit again if you hit the lighthouse at Bondi (unlike the rules on many courses in NZ when you hit power lines).
JNC, here is one of my favourite quirky holes. I'm shocked it hasn't yet been mentioned on this thread. One of many quirky holes at Cruden Bay.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc483/mpgoldstein/DSC06408.jpg)
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This thread shows to me that it's a thin line between quirk and bad architecture and that old often gets a pass as quirky.
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Quirky to me means unusual. So I have looked at holes that have adapted from unusual land forms or situations.
My 12 though they only come from 8 courses.
13th @ North Berwick, 16th @ North Berwick, the wall at 13 is just perfect and the green at 16 defies law.
17th @ TOC, I think 1, 11,12 and 18 could be considered for their unusual charms also.
1st @ Painswick, 5th @ Painswick 6th, 7th, 10th and 16th came close too!
13th @ Prestwick, 17th @ Prestwick. 15 was considered though I think the green is 'too far gone'
8th @ Troon a unique ledge guarded by those traps and a sliver of a green.
5th @ Saunton East the toughest 110 yarder you might find
6th @ Hunstanton the raised green creates a frightening hazard from 100 yards out.
18th @ Ilfracoombe blind green in a quarry, 4th @ Ifracoombe at just 88 yards over a quarry to a shelf.
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Quirky is neither good nor bad. But it is a fine line between a hole being quirky and needed to be bulldozed or rerouted.
I have played many holes that require a 4 iron and a 4 iron. Or even one that was a 9 iron of the tee followed by a 7 iron, for example, no. 9 at Steward Creek in Canmore, Alberta, CA. These would be poor quirky holes.
Some of my favorite quirky holes:
No. 12 at Rustic Canyon (it seems so straight forward but the green is unlike any other)
No. 2 at La Purisima (a blind tee shot from up on a hill, with water right and left)
No. 6 at Pacific Dunes (a hole that is just as easy to make a double bogey as it is to birdie)
No. 16 at Bandon Trails (one of the strangest fairways I have ever played followed by a wild green)
No. 8 at Royal New Kent (one of the few holes with a blind approach to the green from the fairway)
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Old MacDonald #3, #16. (Can't believe these were not mentioned before, and that #7 would be mentioned before them.)
Astoria Country Club #3, #10, #14, #15, #16, might even sneak in #2 as more quirky than a lot mentioned here.
Chambers Bay #12
Sagebrush #2, #16
Hideout #13 (UT) Forrest says he originally routed as a standard length, rather average par 4. Used typical heuristic of shortening to make better.
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5 at Tumblebrook Very few GCAers have seen this one, but Redanboy and I ventured out there last spring. It's very bare bones, but it does have a couple of neat holes, and the 5th really stands out. It's a short par four playing along a hillside. There is out of bounds hard right, and a very steep drop to the left. Left of the green appears to be absolute death from the tee. However, the green is very steep from right to left, meaning a shot hit 20 yards left (where I hit it) has a better chance of a three than one missed to the right (where Mark hit it). Weird hole, weird little course, but a ton of fun.
Great one John! I was actually out there yesterday and hounded the place with my camera.
Mark
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13 and 16 at North Berwick (West)
9 Rivermont
14 Lane Creek
7 The Machrie
1 Aiken
1 NGLA
Lahinch 4,5,6
RCD 7
TOC 17
9 and 13 at Kingsley
Mac explained 9 at Rivermont, and most of the others are get a lot of press, but I will explain 1 at Aiken and 14 at Lance Creek.
Both are short par 4s with wild greens. 1 at Aiken also has a fall off into the railroad tracks as OB all the way along the left side so the smart play is to lay way out to the right with an iron, but then comes a 140 yard shot into a fantasticly contoured green.
14 at Lane Creek (credit to Mike Young) may be the best example of how bold contours can make average paced greens incredibly fun and versitile. The hole is only 300 yards down hill with a wide fairway, but the green falls 5-6 feet from left to right. The top left shelf is essentially bisected by a ridge running in from the left and there is a small shelf in the back middle of the green. Two weeks ago I hit a putt from the top left of this green to the bottom right and made it. It was about a 60 foot putt that took over ten seconds to go in. My playing companions thought that my ball had stopped twice on different ledges and kept telling me that I needed to hit it a little harder. My response each time was "wait for it". Options, strategy, and lots of FUN. Well done, MIke, for creating a versitile and strategic drivable short hole that produces way more bogeys than birdies without water hazards and even when stimped at 8.
I will have to post some pictures (when I get around to taking some).
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5 at Tumblebrook Very few GCAers have seen this one, but Redanboy and I ventured out there last spring. It's very bare bones, but it does have a couple of neat holes, and the 5th really stands out. It's a short par four playing along a hillside. There is out of bounds hard right, and a very steep drop to the left. Left of the green appears to be absolute death from the tee. However, the green is very steep from right to left, meaning a shot hit 20 yards left (where I hit it) has a better chance of a three than one missed to the right (where Mark hit it). Weird hole, weird little course, but a ton of fun.
Great one John! I was actually out there yesterday and hounded the place with my camera.
Mark
I think someone has to be a serious GCA geek (which, of course, I am) to see a lot in Tumblebrook. Even so, that Volcano green at 4 and the shelf green at 5 are freakin' cool.
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Quirky is very much a personal perspective. Growing up in Derbyshire, there are plenty of blind shots over hills, or shots over dry stone walls, or approaches to tiny greens. Then travelling further afield, to some of the UK’s older courses, there are again many features that someone used to modern “by the numbers” architecture, would certainly consider quirky, that for me are just great use of the existing features of the site, often forcing you to hit a shot differently than you would otherwise do so, or take more unusual strategic decisions.
JNC and Niall’s discussion of the 18th at Brora is a good example. A great finishing hole, and for someone like JNC who seems to love the quirky nature of UK courses, it certainly fits the bill, however to Niall or myself, its probably less quirky as we will have come across similar examples more often?
Anyway, I’d say 1 and 13 at North Berwick certainly fit the bill, but have been mentioned plenty (I’m with JNC in thinking the 1st at NB is a great start to the round), then there is the cops out of bounds on the 1st at Royal Liverpool. But below is my list of a dozen quirky holes, some are great architecture, some or bordering on the insane, but all are quirky to one degree or other…
3 at St Enodoc
The 420 odd yards on the card don’t give any clue to what you will actually encounter. A blind downhill drive. At the far end of the landing area is a track and also a ditch with a copse before the hole doglegs to the left slightly.
13 at Burnham & Berrow
Never really managed to get my head around this hole but I still like it. The old tee was better with its tricky semi blind shot, but the drive is still probably best as a fairway wood as a sandy track to the beach crosses the hole and theres no relief from it. Then a slight dogleg left, terrain gets interesting and narrow for the semi blind layup, then the green itself is almost 50 yards long and very narrow with a wicked hollow off to the right.
17 at Painswick
Certainly the quirkiest hole on the course. Anywhere else and I’d think it was nuts, but it just about works at Painswick? A blind drive to a narrow landing area with a crossroads and out of bounds to the left!
17 at Pennard
Never managed to get my head around this one at Buda, in fact I cant remember even finishing the hole!
9 at Royal West Norfolk
This is actually a very good hole but what makes it quirky for me is the approach over a tidal marsh. Not your standard links feature, and pics when its flooded, with the railway sleepers across the front of the green, look great, but not your typical links.
17 at Alwoodley
A drive over a public road to a pretty flat fairway, but then the blind approach is to a green set at the bottom of a slope. The aggressive line must take on the gorse bushes at the top of the slope.
4 at Lindrick
A short par 5 that doglegs to the right with the fairway running away from you a little. However the approach is to a totally blind green sitting down at the bottom of a slope, with a stream running around the back.
2 at Blairgowrie Wee
The approach to this shortish par 4 must get past 2 large pine trees standing guard at the front of the green. Probably too high to get a shot over them, the best bet is an aggressive drive cutting the corner to get down the slope close to the green, which will just leave a short bump and run beneath their branches.
3 at Gleneagles Kings
The uphill drive is to a pretty undulating fairway, but the approach is over a rather large hill, with the green on the far side.
15 at Boat of Garten
Only a short par 4, but a drive would end up at the bottom of a deep and narrow hollow, with heather al around. Best bet is to play it as something like two 7 irons, but you will not realise that from the tee as its semi blind and the hollow cant be seen.
16 at Askernish
Probably one of the maddest greens I’ve ever seen, but I loved it! It’s a very narrow front upper tier, that sits high up above the fairway, then a drop off behind.
8 at Chevin, Derbyshire
I decided to add one from my home county of Derbyshire, and there were plenty to choose from. “Tribulation” at Chevin is just under 400 yards but the drive is over a drystone wall, uphill to a hogsback fairway with a drystone wall left, out of bounds over, and a steep drop off right. The approach is then steeply uphill also. Many locals play a short iron to the start of the fairway to avoid a drive which if slightly off line will kick off the fairway either left or right into trouble. Pretty crazy, but its been there for 118 years, and is as much fun to play now as it was when I was a kid!
http://www.chevingolf.co.uk/pages.php/course_hole.html/054d3b28-67e8-11df-808c-001ec9b331b2/8.html
Cheers,
James
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This thread shows to me that it's a thin line between quirk and bad architecture and that old often gets a pass as quirky.
Bill,
At times yes, quirky can be bad architecture, but for me it can also be very good architecture, and some of the holes I've listed above are very good indeed.
As for "old often getting a pass" I'd say its for two reasons. Firstly, whatever the quirky nature of the hole is, its been like that for years and so as so many people have played it, they've got used to it. Secondly, a course laid out lets say 80 to 120 years ago, wouldn't have had the numbers of players on the course, and certainly not that many unaccompanied visitors or societies that will be playing it today, so any potential safety issues that would stop an architect creating such holes today, wouldn't have been an issue back then.
Cheers,
James
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I think the other reason that quirk is so well liked in some corners is that many of us are simply starved for something different than all the cookie cutter "modern" courses we've played. The ODG had to work with what they were given and couldn't easily bulldoze odd land forms. They also weren't constrained by those pesky environmental and safety issues. It may have taken us the better part of a century to figure out that this wasn't always a bad thing.
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Doesn't the presence of a bell insinuate quirk? I recall the bell on the back nine at Pete Dye GC and cannot remember if it was necessary to ring it for practical reasons or spiritual ones.
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Doesn't the presence of a bell insinuate quirk? I recall the bell on the back nine at Pete Dye GC and cannot remember if it was necessary to ring it for practical reasons or spiritual ones.
Practical with spiritual implications. (How about that one, huh?!?!)
It comes at the end of the blind short par 4. You can drive the green from the tee, but you can't see the green. Ring the bell when you are clear...so the next group can have a "go" at it.
Another great Dye course/hole.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/PDGC12bell.jpg)
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How about 12 SUCCESSIVE quirky holes?
Look no further than the old-fashioned 12 hole Shiskine course on the Isle of Arran...
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Thanks, Mac. We rang that bell joyfully. Terrific hole, green just around the bend, right? Immediately preceding the par three?
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Thanks, Mac. We rang that bell joyfully. Terrific hole, green just around the bend, right? Immediately preceding the par three?
Yep...you got it.
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John
Thanks for responding.
Imagine if you will, the dip in front of the 18th at Brora filled up with water such that it was a pond, or maybe even scrub, would that make it more conventional and less quirky ? Perhaps what is quirky for you here is the use of a run off as a "hazard" where perhaps with more fast and firm conditions over here that type of idea isn't as novel. Granted you perhaps don't get as many big swales or depressions as the one fronting the 18th Brora but the idea isn't unique, its basically a plateau green like many you see at Dornoch (various), Silloth (13th and 16th), Muirfield (13th ?), Renaissance (par 4 uphill 12th ?) etc.
Now the 1st at NB has perhaps two qualities that you touch upon that might be worth discussing as being quirky. The first is the width of the fairway, or to be more exact the width of the 1st and 18th fairways together. While not common this is not unique with TOC being the obvious example and if you ignore the bit of scruffy rough between the the two fairways you effectively have a double fairway at the 1st/18th at NB's other course, The Glen.
The second point you make is the truncated nature of the drive, which as you say is similar to Prestwick. I've never played with you but I saw you play a few shots at Dornoch and you've clearly got a very good swing, a very nice striker of the ball and someone no doubt used to playing from the middle of the fairway. Personally I prefer, or rather am required, to guddle my way round the course and am not adverse to playing from the rough which sometimes is the better option not only for the line in but because the ball sometimes sits up better in the rough. Having played NB about half a dozen times I've come to the conclusion I'm better off hitting long at that hole and playing my second from the gulley or side of the bank (or even the beach) rather than 50 yards further back down the fairway. In that sense, I simply don't see the hole the way you do. I'd be interested to hear from Simon as to how the members commonly play this hole. I suspect the better players probably play it the way you do while us mere mortals go the other way.
Niall
Hi Niall and John, and happy NY to everyone.
Into the wind we will always lay up of the path which is around a 180 shot from the medal tee. Downwind I would now probably always have a pop with the driver. 95% of locals would still always lay up- in something serious like the club championship or the like I would never hit driver.
Growing up absolutely no one went for the green as the area beyond the path was poorly maintained, very sandy and you never caught a good lie. Now that area is really nice to hit off so as long as you are not in the rock outcrop on the hill or on the beach it is not too tough a pitch onto the green, just very hard to judge.
What I will say is that the number of birdies on 1 is far less than you would imagine for a 314 yarder. I reckon I have played easily over 1000 rounds and probably birdied it less than Redan. No one thinks of it as a weak hole.
The green is only just behind Redan as the most difficult to putt on at the upper section. Everyone talks about 16 but it is getting on that green that is the trouble, not putting once on it.
I would probably class the environment as quirky rather than the hole but I know where John is coming from.....and he did have a nice bird.
S
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The Klondyke, Dell, and 13 at Dooks belong on any quirky list.
Agree with these three and the mention of #15 at Boat of Garten. I'd also nominate #14 at The Island (narrowest fairway anywhere) and a couple Engh holes: #14 at Redlands Mesa and #12 at Fossil Trace (with stone pillers blocking the path to the green). There are also a few Dell-type holes at Engh's Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO.
I'm surprised with some of the holes included in this thread. For example, I never thought of #6 at Pacific Dunes as quirky; #9 and the greensite at #8 are moreso IMO.