Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Scott Warren on November 24, 2011, 06:33:47 AM
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One of the downsides of the "family" of template holes Macdonald and Raynor built -- particularly their quartet of par threes -- is the ease with which those like holes are compared.
As a result, the discussion of some fantastic holes will be framed negatively because of a direct comparison to the Redan at National, Short at Fishers Island or Biarritz at Yale, whereas the same hole were it not a template would be discussed only in terms of its own merits.
An example of that is an analysis of Yale's par threes such as this from Darius Oliver's fantastic "Planet Golf USA" book:
"Interestingly, the par threes here are the same foursome found at the nearby Fishers Island Club, and again they show the limits of imitation versus creation. Although the Short, Redan and Eden holes are quite good, they are not among Raynor’s best and these replicas do get less interesting the more of them you see."
Were the Short 5th, Redan 13th and Eden 15th three unnamed holes by another architect, they would be discussed for their many strengths instead of compared to some of the best holes in golf.
When talk turns to underrated and underappreciated golf courses, Yale deserves to be the first topic of conversation.
The course is filled with unique and memorable holes and features.
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/441/img0366tw.jpg)
(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/9114/img0368c.jpg)
The 1st hole is a fairly sedate par four (410/383 yards) until you reach the bold green that sets the stage for the rest of the putting surfaces that follow. It's a fantastic way to start the round.
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/1493/img0369d.jpg)
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3594/img0371g.jpg)
The 2nd is shorter (374/344), but ratchets up the drama at the green, with the left-hand bunkers sitting a good 15-20ft below the surface. With a pin toward the back, it seems the chance of dunking the ball into purgatory becomes greater.
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8905/img0372u.jpg)
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/314/img0373lo.jpg)
I'm informed that only two greens on the course have been altered from what Raynor designed -- this at the 3rd (411/379) and the 16th. What used to be a double punchbowl that was partially visible if you drove close to the water is now a pancake that's blind whether you thread it down the right or heave one weakly to the left.
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9313/img0375an.jpg)
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6748/img0378oq.jpg)
The 4th (437/426) asks you to drive long into a narrow neck between water and forest, before a slightly uphill mid-iron to a deceptively steep green. This might be an example of holes being named for the sake of it, because there's not much similarity here to the original Road Hole or to other MacRaynor templates I've played, but still a very good hole.
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7025/img0379sb.jpg)
Only one (fairly poor) photo of the Short hole, the 5th (147/138). It looks better from the tee, but this still shows what a great, tiny target is presented, with the green here sloping more than it appears, like at the 5th.
(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/254/img0381ex.jpg)
The 6th (421/349) seems to me to set up far better from the back tee than the forward tee. From back there, it is almost 260 yards to the corner of the dogleg (guarded inside by a snaking creek), where from the forward tee it's just 180 yards and it's too easy to club a drive to within wedge range of a fairly flat green. Not among the best holes on the course, but we're about to enter one of the finest stretches in golf.
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2190/img0382ki.jpg)
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9679/img0384p.jpg)
Remarkable that all of this 7th hole (377/359) and the next are completely manufactured, raised up above what was originally a swampy wetland. More remarkable still that such dramatic construction was carried out in the mid-1920s. This is a fantastic hole, largely for the demanding approach and slick green. Even after Irene and Lee had passed through within a few weeks of my round here, a 10ft putt from above the green was fairly nerve-wracking.
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3939/img0387jx.jpg)
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6648/img0389xl.jpg)
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4857/img0390py.jpg)
Here's a hole they just don't build anymore at the 8th (406/383). The drive gets less attention than the approach and recoveries because of how bold and fun the green is, but the tee shot still has a lot in it, with the chance to cut the corner and shorten the approach or play further right and hope to end up in "Raynor's Notch" -- a channel cut from the hill that allows a precious view of the green. The kickpad on the right of the gren is another great feature that is more useful from the left than from the right. Finally, the bunkers are even more savage than those flanking the 2nd green. In all, this us just one of those great holes you could play from sunup to sundown with a smile on your face.
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3927/img0393qj.jpg)
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/396/img0394lzn.jpg)
We finally made it to the 9th (213/196)! When I was about 13 years old and had just fallen for the game of golf in a big way my grandad had a book called "How To Play Par Threes". It featured about 10 of the world's best one-shotters and the author played them with the club pro, who detailed the smart way to play the hole for different levels of player. I immediately noticed there was something cool about this hole and -- 10,000 miles away in country Australia -- lamented the fact I would never play it. But then this wonderful thing called GCA.com happened and lo and behold I was standing on the tee here with a club in hand and butterflies in my stomach. There's not much to say that hasn't already been said, but I will say there is no way a photo can do this setting or the green justice. It's a marvellous hole.
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3838/img0397jl.jpg)
(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4417/img0398ni.jpg)
Golf doesn't come more dramatic than the 10th (396/360). A drive over a ridge to a blind landing area, an approach 40ft or so uphill, a green with a steep slope between tiers. One I'd have described as "a love/hate hole" if I had ever met a single person who doesn't love it!
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7738/img0400rh.jpg)
At Yale, I highly recommend playing the Tom Dunne Composite Course. On that course you opt for the front tee at the 11th (379/340), from which this is a great short par four that brings the bunkers 50 yards short of the green into play from the tee, and look how brilliantly that left-hand trap blends into the exposed rockface. The right-hand line can be a great option to sneak up on the green from the tee, but if you're shorter off the tee than you expected it can present an awkward second shot.
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3863/img0401ck.jpg)
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7047/img0402o.jpg)
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/5335/img0406l.jpg)
Regrettable as the inevitable comparison of sibling holes is, Darius was not wrong when he wrote that the Short, Redan and Eden at Yale aren't the holes that their siblings in Long and Fishers islands are. But he also failed to make mention of the Alps 12th (400/350), which for my money is deserving of discussion alongside National's version of the template. The green is among the best on the course, two tiers positioned side-by-side, making for a tough two-putt if you find yourself on the wrong level of the green, which is completely blind from the driving zone. Even with a wedge in hand it's a tough shot, so I can't imagine the difficulty with pre-WW2 equipment.
(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1366/img0409be.jpg)
I'll concede the the 13th (212/196) doesn't look much like a Redan from the tee, but the green has all you could ask for, including a false front (?!) that may detract from its Redan-esque qualities (Redanishness? Redanocity?), but gives the hole another talking point. Perhaps despite not being among the best Redans in the family, his is an example of the fact that -- like the 4th at Riviera -- a hole doesn't need to look faithfully like the 4th at National or the 15th at North Berwick to share some of what is great about playing those holes.
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/204/img0413oa.jpg)
At 365/343 yards, the 14th (Knoll) is the perfect length (pic your tee) for the challenge presented by the drive, which asks you to try to drive as far around the dogleg and you can -- aided by the steep slope down the left to try to end up with as flat a lie as possible for the approach. This isn't a green you want to be playing a mid iron to. Right? Bad. Left? Bad. Short? Bad. Long? Yep, bad and wet. To add to the difficulty, there's every chance your second shot will be played from a lie that slopes both downhill and to the right. Just another example of distance being only one way to built difficulty and far from the best way to generate interest.
(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9024/img0415xq.jpg)
15th hole (190/165) is a great little Eden hole that does a good job of replicating a few of the features of the original in as different a setting as you could get. As with several of the earlier holes, the green is far slicker than it appears, putting an even greater premium on ensuring you stay below the hole.
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9638/img0416rg.jpg)
Unfortunately, owing to my decision to duck into the clubhouse to grab a sandwich before we set off, the three of us got stuck behind a ridiculously slow fourball and as a result, we were caught by the most glacial golfer I have ever come across (no surprise he was playing alone...) by the 8th. We asked him to play through, he said he'd prefer to join us, and that is how we got to spend a little time with Lee. Well, as a result of that we had only made it to the 16th (553/474) by the time the rain grew tired of holding offand dumped on us. If we'd gone off before that fourball, we'd have been done by then, no doubt. We percivered through the 16th, but it had become impossible to swing the club, so we walked the last two holes and didn't play them. My memories of the 16th are probably sullied by the weather (and the realisation it was my fault we were copping it), but it seemed to offer less than the rest of the course and brought an end to the scintilating run from 7 to 15.
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2575/img0417re.jpg)
The uphill drive over a dam at the 17th (437/395) is fairly severe and scary, but at the length this hole plays, the Principal's Nose bunker complex 40-70 yards short of the Double Plateau green is perfectly placed and I was gutted I didn't get a chance to pit myself against it.
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7700/img0419je.jpg)
The 18th (621/542) is another unique hole that defies description. Twice blind, plenty of elevation change, alternate routes... damn that sandwich to hell! It sure was fun to walk, even in Biblical rain.
Yale deserves more than it receives in terms of discussion and rankings. It's as unique and fun as any course I have played, packed with variety and a must-play for any visitor to the north-east of the US.
Lee was last seen grinding over a 20-footer for double bogey on the 16th as the green flooded around him. Seriously.
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Looks like a pretty wild ride, Scott.
That step in the 10th green looks taller than whomever is walking towards the flag!
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Scott,
I've not played the other renowned template courses, but what I knew from GCA and my one round at Fox Chapel hardly prepared me for Yale. The drives on 1 and 17 are beastly tough from the back tees. Remember that the course only plays about 6700 yards from the tips, so the tips are within the hitting capacity of more golfers.
The first green, site of a three-putt from a ball that just hung on the edge of the cliff (the pin was back left) did two things...made me smile at my 6 and opened my mind to what was ahead of me.
Yale is oversized, and never in a bad way. Like many courses, having a prior walk around makes all the difference for me. Despite admonitions on the part of my partners, I still thought #3 went left, not right, and put myself in some trouble (still made 5, I believe.)
We had a group hot on our heals, or we would have had time to putt around on #9. That was OK, because playing #10 and finding my ball on the same (back) tier as the flag was worth the missed practice time.
In a world that values impeccable conditioning, Yale will lose points. In my world, it never will.
http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/yalegc/aerial.htm
and
http://thecourseatyale.org/yardage_book.htm
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Ronald,
The conditioning point is a great one. I am sure that has a great effect on some folks' view of the course.
In reality, it's as good as it needs to be.
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Interesting thoughts concerning the conditioning. In this, Yale rather reminds me of Cavendish in that I really wonder if the course was properly dried out and firm if it wouldn't effectively be too narrow. I can see a lot of trouble out there after the ball lands if there is nothing to hold it up.
Scott - thanks for the pix. Yale is quite high on my list of courses to see and your tour only reinforces why.
Ciao
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I'd like to disagree with what you said Scott, but pretty much all the facts are on your side!
Yale is a blast.
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Agree that conditioning holds it back. Maybe more damning is that its not an exclusive private club or a resort destination. In the US ratings those are the courses that tend to rate high particularly at the very top of these lists.
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Brian,
There wasn't much run to be had, but considering the course is on heavy soil and the previous month had brought a hurricane and a tropical storm, as well as rainfall in their wakes, I guess that's neither a surprise nor a damning indictment.
I absolutely must go back to Yale the next time I am within 300 miles. It's as simple as that.
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Thanks for the tour, Scott. Really sorry that you didn't get to play 18. I'm not sure it's a great hole, but it is an adventure.
Yale was the first great course I ever played, and as much as anywhere inspired my interest in golf course architecture. Other than the biarritz, I don't even think of any of the other holes in terms of templates - they are just golf holes that are bold, fun, & challenging.
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Scott,
Thanks for posting. Only played the course once in the mid 90's and definitely need to get back. If this club were private, faithfully restored and maintained at the highest level, it's hard to believe it wouldn't give some of the upper tier a run for their money.
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I think you're right Jud, especially in the "fully restored" aspect.
The 3rd and 16th are definite flat spots on the course that -- crucially, IMO -- reduce the quality off the opening and closing stretches. First and last impressions are hard to look past for many people.
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It's bloody brilliant. When I played there they'd just held the NCAA Eastern Division Finals (or something) and the greens were absurdly fast (I had 24 putts on the front 9 and chips on most too, before getting the hang of them) but it was great fun. Shame you didn't get to play 18, it's a blast.
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It's bloody brilliant. When I played there they'd just held the NCAA Eastern Division Finals (or something) and the greens were absurdly fast (I had 24 putts on the front 9 and chips on most too, before getting the hang of them) but it was great fun. Shame you didn't get to play 18, it's a blast.
Mark-I think you caught the course at it`s absolute best as I played the week after the NCAA as well. I don`t recall the greens being that fast and had the same struggles as you. I remember having a birdie putt on the 14 Knoll to a front left pin where I was pin high right and I ended up at the bottom of the hill off the green. The birdie try could not have been more than 15 feet. A good ball striking round can get turned into a nightmare on those greens as I think they were stimping out around 12 which is certainly at the limit. That didn`t stop a young freshman from the University of Texas named Cody Gribble from shooting 63 in the first round-ouch!
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Ronald,
The conditioning point is a great one. I am sure that has a great effect on some folks' view of the course.
In reality, it's as good as it needs to be.
Scott-Fantastic photo tour and analysis. You really did your due diligence as the reference on #8 to Raynor`s Notch implies. I need fast and firm conditions to find that spot with the drive and it is a glorious vantage point to one of my favorite approaches on the course. As to the conditioning, people that played this year have to remember that Yale took on more rain than anyone can ever recall. Scott Ramsay is diligently addressing drainage issues as he goes forward but was certainly outmatched by mother nature this year. As far as 3 and 16 green go I too would like to see them restored back to their original positions and dimensions. That said they are still pretty solid holes, especially # 3. The greens are back to their original dimensions requiring a large number of heads that are now visibly on the putting surfaces to be removed. The transformation since Scott Ramsay has come on board in 2003 has been remarkable and will only get better if the master plan continues to be carried out.
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Tim,
Thanks for the kind words.
From talking to a few folks who knew the course going back 10-15 years, it seems you members are fortunate to have the Super you have doing the work he is doing. I'm sure it will continue to improve even further.
If I am not mistaken, wasn't it GCA's own Noel "Tuco" Freeman who coined the term "Raynor's Notch"?
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Tim,
Thanks for the kind words.
From talking to a few folks who knew the course going back 10-15 years, it seems you members are fortunate to have the Super you have doing the work he is doing. I'm sure it will continue to improve even further.
If I am not mistaken, wasn't it GCA's own Noel "Tuco" Freeman who coined the term "Raynor's Notch"?
Scott- The hope is that Scott Ramsay stays forever but because of the work he has done at Yale his star is certainly on the rise. As far as Raynor`s Notch I believe that the term goes back much farther than Noel as I am pretty sure that it was referenced in the book Golf at Yale that came out a few years year`s ago which I have and will try to find the reference.
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Yale operates on a scale that few courses can match. The site was difficult, the build must have been brutal and yet in my opinion the course really embraces the massive undulation of the property. The scale of bunkers, width of holes and undulations in the green fit the setting. I’m in awe of how massive a swing for the fences this course was.
Why doesn’t it get love?
I think it struggles more from holes like the 10th, 12th and 18th where many players just can’t wrap their head around the concepts. They hate the blindness and complain about the complexity of the shots. You need a sense of adventure to embrace those holes, anyone who loves to shoot a score usually lacks the sense of humor required for the back nine.
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That's a fair point re: the blindness, Ian. Thanks for contributing.
I agree the scale is remarkable, as is the way in which the built features -- to steal a phrase from your post -- "embrace the massive undulation".
Smaller, shallower, flatter on that land would have looked insipid.
It really is a bold statement.
And I really can't fathom how hard it must have been to blast the rock and move so much dirt in the 1920s!
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Scott,
Yale's 9th hole has the potential to wreck any round and playing it successfully is one of the great joys in golf.
Concerning the NCAA Regional that was played at Yale... how would you like to have the course record in hand with only the 9th hole remaining to play? It could be a glorious way to finish off a dream round... or, it could turn into a nightmare disaster:
http://www.golfweek.com/comments/cr/91/12602/
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ouch!
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Scott and Ian have seized on something that I felt during my first visit (thanks to the kind hospitality of Tim Martin). The scale of the place is remarkable and any course that failed to reflect that scale would have been a missed opportunity. I'm not sure if my experience is unique but I found that the scale, coupled with some good width and, for the most part greens that fit the scale of the property may have lulled me into a false sense of security. I felt free to swing for the fences with driver and by and large kept the ball in play without too much difficulty but to really have shot a good score, I needed to be much more precise on approach shots. Hitting greens wasn't the issue as much as failing to concentrate on how precise the shot needed to be to get close enough to ensure a reasonable birdie putt. With their massive scale, one can be hitting lots of greens but still have miles and miles to go.
What also struck me about the scale of the course was that despite its massive feel, I did not feel much distance pressure. Part of that was because the course was playing firm but other than 4 (depending on how you chose to play the hole) and 9 depending on he hole location, I think the course is very playable for short hitters as well as long.
I have never heard criticism of the course from anyone and that includes conditioning. I think many people understand that it is a university course and do not expect conditions like those you would find at a private club with a similar pedigree. With that said, my sense is that the people that seek Yale out are going because they expect to find something special. Perhaps there is a universe of golfers that play the course and don't appreciate it but I can't imagine anyone with a broad range of experience not coming away impressed.
As far as rankings, perhaps the course would be ranked higher with more refined maintenance (he maintenance is not bad) but I think that would actually rob the place of some of its charm. It is certainly one of he top 20 courses I have ever played (maybe higher) and I know many who feel the same way.
One of the more entertaining formats I have ever seen is employed by GCA'ers Will Smith and Colin Sheehan during the 27 hole alternate shot event they host each fall at Yale. At the end of the day, ever group in the competition assembles on the 9th tee. It is the only hole in the competition where both partners hit a tee shot. The entire field plays to a back flag before moving en masse to the green. I have never seen a larger variety of shots employed to get to that back pin. From big cut drivers landing on the back shelf to low running irons that hit the front and run through the swale to the back ad everything in between.
Perhaps the biggest compliment that I can pay to Yale is that both times I have played it, I started smiling and laughing on the first tee and continued to do so through the 18th green. There are few courses that I enjoy more.
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I was fortunate enough to make it to Yale this October with a few GCA members. From my experience, more than anything your irons have to be spot on. It was so easy to miss an iron by 10 yards and have either, a.) a really difficult chip or b.) an incredibly intimidating chip or putt. And if you're off that day, you'd better have some idea where you are going to miss because its definitely better to hit a good shot that misses in the right spot than to hit a bad shot and miss in the wrong spot.
For example, I missed 2 in the right bunker from the middle of the fairway and was hitting the recovery to a green sloping away right towards 15 foot deep bunkers. I have probably never felt more intimidated on a single shot than I did on that one, and naturally lost my shot over the green into one of the pits on the other side. That was one of many such shots. It was amazing how much pressure a 6,100 yard course could put on a golfer.
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Scott,
A possible reason is that the course was in poor condition for many years and it wasn't until recently that some reclamation work was done.
The geat Geoff Childs, tried for years to get the University to polish/restore the gem it had, but, his pleas fell on deaf ears for a long, long while.
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Great write-up Scott. For a piece of property that feels like you're in a forest, the trees really aren't ever an issue. Seems like Yale is one example of fantastic maintenance of the playing corridors.
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yaah, understand that when I mentioned conditioning, I was reaching for a "it's not Augusta flawless, so I'll dock it points" perspective. Yale gave me the opportunity to head to #17 tee at +4 for the day, make 6 there (tough green to putt, forget about the Principal's Nose) and then to 18, where a soaring and crushed 3-metal from the left side was only "good enough" to get grabbed by the native grasses on top of the mountain. Literally, two inches higher and I believe I would have been down the hill, in front of the green. Instead, I was playing from the fescue, on my way to another double and a score of 80 or some such. I can empathize with Wes Bryan, as the course rewarded, then revealed, me.
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Scott - thanks much, as always an excellent and insightful tour. (You guys, with John M and Sean A and RDM and a few others I'm missing are really really good at what you do. Have you ever considered pooling your resources and experience and combining all the excellent photos and commentary in one place? The neat thing is that each of you brings a different perspective but all of you have very sound and perceptive perspectives). You had me from your first line, which I think states so clearly something that is, in retrospect, so obvious and yet not often enough given its due, i.e. that the 'baggage' that comes with templates is the ease with which they are compared. (Said comparisons are, btw, the bane of my existence - since the very act of making them ignores another obvious fact, i.e. that we actually play and experience golf one golf hole at a time, one golf course at a time, and on one very different piece of land at a time. We who say we love the art-craft of gca should be, I'd think, the last people who'd want to cherry-pick the 'best of', seemingly independent of time, place and circumstance -- and yet we more than most do exactly that all the time. There's a 'hungry ghost' quality to that approach that isn't very appealing)
Thanks again
Peter
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I find it very interesting there is a virtual lack of fairway bunkers - I count only a few. I don't know the history of Yale, but I find it also interesting that there is a mishmash of bunkering near the greens. My only Raynor visit has been Yeamans and the bunkering there strikes me as 1) much more demanding and 2) the greens shaped to make the bunkers more in play. I see there are still Yeaman-like bunkers at Yale, was the bunker style more like Yeamans at one point and if so is there any talk of a restoration?
Ciao
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I'm not sure I agree with the caption that it's overlooked. Both Golf Magaine and GolfWeek have it rated in it's top 100. Golf Digest does not. I've tried for years to get panelists to go yet it doesn't seem to fit the mold for a GD top 100 course.
There are a variety of reasons for this, but most of it boils down to things already discussed, conditioning and quirk. Add in that it's a difficult walk for some GD panelists and that the staff at Yale doesn't show any love for panelists it kind of ends up way outside the top 100.
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I absolutely love the routing at Yale. For me, one of the best.
wrt conditioning, the last time I played it was very wet. Don't know if it was too much irrigation or something normal for the site. With less water, it would be in my top 20.
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Joel:
Both Golf Magaine and GolfWeek have it rated in it's top 100. Golf Digest does not. I've tried for years to get panelists to go yet it doesn't seem to fit the mold for a GD top 100 course.
I know Golf Mag has it near the back end of its Top 100 US list. I'm thinking it should perhaps be a candidate for the Top 100 World list!
Add in that it's a difficult walk for some GD panelists and that the staff at Yale doesn't show any love for panelists it kind of ends up way outside the top 100.
Do GD panelists have greater difficulty walking than the rest of us? ;D
It's sad that being "shown love" -- or not -- by a facility affects a panelist's views.
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Do GD panelists have greater difficulty walking than the rest of us? ;D
It's sad that being "shown love" -- or not -- by a facility affects a panelist's views.
Scott
Nice review.
My last round at Yale was with a 60 year old woman who carried her own bag. Besides being a unique course, it is also a unique membership. For a bunch of non-golf reasons, she is now a friend for life. I appreciate that Yale lets me be a member as a non-alumnus.
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I played Yale for the first time about 25 years ago and it had quite a few issues when it came to conditioning. The last time I played it (about my 25th time) was about two weeks ago in a fundraiser for junior golf in Ct., and I'd say that Scott Ramsay has flipped it around quite well.
I agree that the #1 reason it got overlooked in the past was conditioning.
#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
#3 - The greens - The course has 8 of them that contain the type of undulations that a putter like Walter Travis would have loved, but many modern players do not.
#4 - Terrain - Wild in places, and living on the edge of the fairways is not a good way to play Yale.
#5 - Tough recoveries and nasty bunkers (even though they are 'tame' in comparison to what was originally there).
The reasons it shouldn't be overlooked:
#1 - Scott Ramsay
#'s 2,3,4 and 5 - See 2, 3, 4 and 5 above
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Geez Mike I know I hacked it around but a "60 year old woman"? Thats low!
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Geez Mike I know I hacked it around but a "60 year old woman"? Thats low!
Dave-That zig zag putt on 10 will put fear into the bravest of the brave, no?
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Scott,
Great write up and pictures. I like the look of Yale a lot, and some of it for some reasons reminds me of Notts, can't quite put my finger on it, maybe the movement of the land?
I like your story regarding the 9th and the book "How To Play Par Threes". I'm pretty sure I had that as a kid, though I checked my library last night and couldn't see it. I remember it, because I'm sure I had previously heard of all the courses but not Yale, and the idea of this par 3 over water, to a green that had a massive valley through the middle just seemed nuts!
Cheers,
James
ps Sean, I can't comment on Yale regarding firming up and width, but I can agree with you on Cavendish! When I was younger, I used to play Cavendish a lot in the summer and it was always much firmer and faster than these past few years, which certainly made it a much tougher proposition!
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James,
In a strange way, it is quite an English golf course. Maybe like the offspring of Addington and Huntercombe? Maybe that's a slightly abstract comparison, but I do think anyone who is fond of olde worlde English inland courses couldn't fail to LOVE Yale.
The belt-notchers might not make it a priority, but for me it is as much a must play as anything else I've seen in the NE United States.
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Mark-I think you caught the course at it`s absolute best as I played the week after the NCAA as well. I don`t recall the greens being that fast and had the same struggles as you. I remember having a birdie putt on the 14 Knoll to a front left pin where I was pin high right and I ended up at the bottom of the hill off the green. The birdie try could not have been more than 15 feet. A good ball striking round can get turned into a nightmare on those greens as I think they were stimping out around 12 which is certainly at the limit. That didn`t stop a young freshman from the University of Texas named Cody Gribble from shooting 63 in the first round-ouch!
Remember that we very rarely see greens as fast as 10 in the UK, so 12, in May probably does qualify as absurdly fast. It always takes me a round or so to get used to the speed of greens in the US. On 7 there was a front right pin when I played. My approach came back off the false front. My first chip was short and came back to where I was. My second was past the flag. My putt was off the green. I got up and down for a seven! A 63 round there takes some short game, I imagine!
In many ways the course that most reminds me of Yale is Lawsonia. Both are big brawny golf courses with an obviously artificial element to their construction which works very well (in the same way that the obviously man made hazards at Huntercombe and Kington also work). Both also feature greens with vry sharp, steep and deep drop offs. Its a style of golf I'm very keen to see more of.
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Mark,
I'm interested in the classification of Yale as "big, brawny..." The course tops out at 67.5 hundred yards (http://www.oobgolf.com/courses/scorecard.php?id=2068) but does seem to play that way, perhaps because of the drive requirements (from the Long tees, mind you) of holes 1, 4, 8, 9 (yes, the par 3!), 10 (must pass that rise!) 17 and 18. The second shot on 18 is the most demanding shot of the day; no one wants to hit a skipper off the hill that rises in front of you.
Yale is a perfect example of driving wins the day. There is much trouble off the tee if you are hitting it on the edges of the club face. Give me 10 of 14 center-cut drives and I will take my chances with my unreliable irons and uncertain putting stroke. I have to believe that one who plays Yale consistently and attentively, becomes a marvelous positioner of the golf ball off the tee.
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#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
I've got to open my eyes more on my next round at Yale. . . I don't remember a dozen.
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#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
I've got to open my eyes more on my next round at Yale. . . I don't remember a dozen.
Come on Professor ;D
3-Drive and approach
8-Drive and approach
10-Drive and approach
11-Drive
12-Drive and approach
17-Drive
18-Drive and 2nd and possibly 3rd
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The above referenced Golf at Yale was published in 2009 and was written by a retired physician, John Godley, who has
played the course for over 50 years. I was fortunate to meet and talk with him on my last trip there and he is a
delightful person. Lots of great stories needless to say. I looked at the description of the 8th hole and couldn't find any
reference to Raynor's notch. All the description of the holes in the book are by Banks.
I just love Yale. It has every challenge imaginable and in addition to the all world 4th and 9th, just a bunch of great, great
holes. I agree that the par 3's may not be the equal of other top 50 courses, but they are a solid group nonetheless.
It is just a joy to play and is getting better all the time. I think it didn't get the appreciation because it was in such bad
condition for so many years. Being a college course is no excuse. It's a first class place with a caring membership and loads
of wealthy alumni. If they could raise 12 mil for a new boat house one would think they can keep the golf course in great
shape. Kudos for the work that has been done.
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The above referenced Golf at Yale was published in 2009 and was written by a retired physician, John Godley, who has
played the course for over 50 years. I was fortunate to meet and talk with him on my last trip there and he is a
delightful person. Lots of great stories needless to say. I looked at the description of the 8th hole and couldn't find any
reference to Raynor's notch. All the description of the holes in the book are by Banks.
I just love Yale. It has every challenge imaginable and in addition to the all world 4th and 9th, just a bunch of great, great
holes. I agree that the par 3's may not be the equal of other top 50 courses, but they are a solid group nonetheless.
It is just a joy to play and is getting better all the time. I think it didn't get the appreciation because it was in such bad
condition for so many years. Being a college course is no excuse. It's a first class place with a caring membership and loads
of wealthy alumni. If they could raise 12 mil for a new boat house one would think they can keep the golf course in great
shape. Kudos for the work that has been done.
Scott-I believe you are correct in that the moniker Raynor`s Notch is from former GCA member,Dr. Geoff Childs. I like Wayne could not find the reference in the book.
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Joe,
Tim's list, with modifications.
3-Drive and approach
6 - Approach, especially after a 'safe' tee shot
7 - Approach, the surface of the green is blind
8-Drive and approach
10-Drive and approach
11-Drive
12-Drive and approach
17-Drive
18-Drive and 2nd and possibly 3rd
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Shame you didn't get to play 18, it's a blast.
Don't feel too sorry for Scott. I suspect he will be back there before either of us are.
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I measure Yale's greatness in the fact that I always play pretty well there. Great courses inspire.
I would love to see two things happen at Yale to make it even better:
1. Restoration of the right half of the 3rd green.
2. Strengthening of the contours of the 5th green.
I friggin' love Yale.
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Mayhugh: I'll make the most of my lot in life until a) a mortgage and/or b) a baby enter(s) the equation.
But yes, I'm hoping to be back at Yale before my age starts with the number three.
Tim and Jim: Is the blind drive at #11 dependent on the tee you use? We played the 340-ish tee there and I don't recall the fairway being blind.
"Blind" is a personal term, too, I guess. For me, if I can see the fairway but the landing spot is hidden (3rd, 8th) or if I can see the flag but the surface of the green is hidden (10th), that to me isn't a blind shot, but I know there are many others who would disagree.
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Thanks for the photos. I had heard good things about Yale but rarely seen so many photos to get a real feel for the course. Looks fantastic.
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Scott,
Yes on the tee at #11.
I call it semi-blind if a fwy. or green is visible but the landing area is hidden. A hole like # 10 would be two semi-blind shots (hopefully ;D ) and a hole like #12 would be semi-blind tee shot, then a blind approach.
p.s. #10 wasn't a blind shot for me the first few times I played it. I would hit a wooden-headed steel-shafted 5-wood and keep it on the upper fairway, then hit the same club to the green. Times and equipment have changed. ;)
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The above referenced Golf at Yale was published in 2009 and was written by a retired physician, John Godley, who has
played the course for over 50 years. I was fortunate to meet and talk with him on my last trip there and he is a
delightful person. Lots of great stories needless to say. I looked at the description of the 8th hole and couldn't find any
reference to Raynor's notch. All the description of the holes in the book are by Banks.
I just love Yale. It has every challenge imaginable and in addition to the all world 4th and 9th, just a bunch of great, great
holes. I agree that the par 3's may not be the equal of other top 50 courses, but they are a solid group nonetheless.
It is just a joy to play and is getting better all the time. I think it didn't get the appreciation because it was in such bad
condition for so many years. Being a college course is no excuse. It's a first class place with a caring membership and loads
of wealthy alumni. If they could raise 12 mil for a new boat house one would think they can keep the golf course in great
shape. Kudos for the work that has been done.
Scott-I believe you are correct in that the moniker Raynor`s Notch is from former GCA member,Dr. Geoff Childs. I like Wayne could not find the reference in the book.
The term Raynor's Notch came out of a round Dr. Childs and I played with Tom Dunne one day after I hit a drive right into the perfect spot to see the flag. The notch is approximately 145-150 yards out from the center of the green (about 120ish to front edge downhill of course).
Geoffrey and I batted around a few names, Raynor's Ledge, Plateau and finally Notch.. I take 50pct credit, Geoff has the rest.
After 6 years of being a member at Yale, 8 is by far my favorite hole and considering I love all of Yale that is saying a lot.. Both drive and approach have enormous interest for me and for some reason the green is very hard to read in the back half. Most of the birdies I have on the hole come when it is pinned in the front 3rd where you can utilize the redan like slope. The back right is a nasty bugger to 2 putt and back left is no holiday either. Thus the elasticity of the green creates a nuance which leads to some difficulties in problem solving despite its short nature at just over 400 yards.
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I'm not sure I agree with the caption that it's overlooked. Both Golf Magaine and GolfWeek have it rated in it's top 100. Golf Digest does not. I've tried for years to get panelists to go yet it doesn't seem to fit the mold for a GD top 100 course.
There are a variety of reasons for this, but most of it boils down to things already discussed, conditioning and quirk. Add in that it's a difficult walk for some GD panelists and that the staff at Yale doesn't show any love for panelists it kind of ends up way outside the top 100.
i agree w Joel, it is not overlooked....well, maybe by the GD guys
I got to play there in September and really enjoyed it..a truly unique course
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So Paul (and Joel):
Do you believe Yale is celebrated and discussed sufficiently for its quality?
Do you think #71 in the USA (Golf Mag) and #41 Classic (Golf Week) are a correct representation of Yale's quality compared to the rest of those samples?
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Although membership mentions 16 as something of a weak hole (in comparison to the others), I found it to be a strong par 4.5. Are there any weak holes or weak shots at Yale, once you get past the nature of the course? I couldn't even begin to compare it to Fox Chapel, even though similar holes abound. The ones at FC are intimate in nature, whereas Yale's template holes seem to stretch to infinity (perhaps that's the "brawny" reference from an earlier post.) Is that unique for a template course? How do green sizes at Yale compare with those at NGLA and other template tours?
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Although membership mentions 16 as something of a weak hole (in comparison to the others), I found it to be a strong par 4.5. Are there any weak holes or weak shots at Yale, once you get past the nature of the course? I couldn't even begin to compare it to Fox Chapel, even though similar holes abound. The ones at FC are intimate in nature, whereas Yale's template holes seem to stretch to infinity (perhaps that's the "brawny" reference from an earlier post.) Is that unique for a template course? How do green sizes at Yale compare with those at NGLA and other template tours?
Ron- 16 is a half par hole from the members tees but when played back it is 553 on the card and the tee will be set back by 5 tee. It is rarely back there for member play just like 18 is rarely set up from the 621 top tee. As far as the scale of the golf course it would be grande in your parlance. ;D
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Is it blind if you know exactly where to hit it? Seems to me what you're saying for the most part is that you don't see the ball land.
There were no places at Yale where I didn't know where to hit the ball, unlike, say Prestwick or Lahinch overseas, where you're not entirely sure what direction to hit it on occasion. On the 10th at Yale, the tee shot is clear and the approach is simply so uphill that you don't see the ball land. But you know exactly where you need to hit it. I'd say the same at almost all the holes you have listed.
Interestingly, I haven't weighed into this discussion, but after having played the course with a well-traveled golf architect and Tom Dunne, we had a long discussion of the quality of Yale. The architect and I both thought it well within the Top 50 in the world, and better than much of what was there.
I don't understand the conditioning issue. It wasn't of the quality say of Winged Foot, but it was certainly fine and not a distraction to the design. I'd say Yale was one of the best I've ever played (and I've had the good fortune to see a great number -- 50 or so of the Toip 100). It is one of the courses I most want to return to play.
#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
I've got to open my eyes more on my next round at Yale. . . I don't remember a dozen.
Come on Professor ;D
3-Drive and approach
8-Drive and approach
10-Drive and approach
11-Drive
12-Drive and approach
17-Drive
18-Drive and 2nd and possibly 3rd
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Is it blind if you know exactly where to hit it? Seems to me what you're saying for the most part is that you don't see the ball land.
There were no places at Yale where I didn't know where to hit the ball, unlike, say Prestwick or Lahinch overseas, where you're not entirely sure what direction to hit it on occasion. On the 10th at Yale, the tee shot is clear and the approach is simply so uphill that you don't see the ball land. But you know exactly where you need to hit it. I'd say the same at almost all the holes you have listed.
Interestingly, I haven't weighed into this discussion, but after having played the course with a well-traveled golf architect and Tom Dunne, we had a long discussion of the quality of Yale. The architect and I both thought it well within the Top 50 in the world, and better than much of what was there.
I don't understand the conditioning issue. It wasn't of the quality say of Winged Foot, but it was certainly fine and not a distraction to the design. I'd say Yale was one of the best I've ever played (and I've had the good fortune to see a great number -- 50 or so of the Toip 100). It is one of the courses I most want to return to play.
#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
I've got to open my eyes more on my next round at Yale. . . I don't remember a dozen.
Come on Professor ;D
3-Drive and approach
8-Drive and approach
10-Drive and approach
11-Drive
12-Drive and approach
17-Drive
18-Drive and 2nd and possibly 3rd
Robert-I don`t know when you played but the knock on conditioning goes back a while. Since Scott Ramsay has come on board and especially in the last 5 years the conditions are very good and continue to get even better.
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The conditioning was absolutely fine when I played there last year.
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I played there last year and met Scott when we were out on the course.
Conditions that day were solid.
Is it blind if you know exactly where to hit it? Seems to me what you're saying for the most part is that you don't see the ball land.
There were no places at Yale where I didn't know where to hit the ball, unlike, say Prestwick or Lahinch overseas, where you're not entirely sure what direction to hit it on occasion. On the 10th at Yale, the tee shot is clear and the approach is simply so uphill that you don't see the ball land. But you know exactly where you need to hit it. I'd say the same at almost all the holes you have listed.
Interestingly, I haven't weighed into this discussion, but after having played the course with a well-traveled golf architect and Tom Dunne, we had a long discussion of the quality of Yale. The architect and I both thought it well within the Top 50 in the world, and better than much of what was there.
I don't understand the conditioning issue. It wasn't of the quality say of Winged Foot, but it was certainly fine and not a distraction to the design. I'd say Yale was one of the best I've ever played (and I've had the good fortune to see a great number -- 50 or so of the Toip 100). It is one of the courses I most want to return to play.
#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
I've got to open my eyes more on my next round at Yale. . . I don't remember a dozen.
Come on Professor ;D
3-Drive and approach
8-Drive and approach
10-Drive and approach
11-Drive
12-Drive and approach
17-Drive
18-Drive and 2nd and possibly 3rd
Robert-I don`t know when you played but the knock on conditioning goes back a while. Since Scott Ramsay has come on board and especially in the last 5 years the conditions are very good and continue to get even better.
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Scott/Yale is 5 years away from the finish line:
http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci1111-course-maintenance-drainage.aspx
"We get an occasional complaint," he says of his golfers, but nothing too bad. "Mostly we have informed everyone ahead of time so they understand. It is a huge difference once the drainage is completed."
Last summer when the course bounced from the NCAA's where the course had fantastic/best ever conditioning in May to record drought conditions in the summer with the State of Connecticut threatening the water supply, Scott stayed in front of the issues.
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So Paul (and Joel):
Do you believe Yale is celebrated and discussed sufficiently for its quality?
Do you think #71 in the USA (Golf Mag) and #41 Classic (Golf Week) are a correct representation of Yale's quality compared to the rest of those samples?
it could be a little higher imho Scott
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I think the answer is still conditioning. That's not a knock on Scott Ramsey; he does fine work under difficult operating conditions, and the course played just fine for my visit -- in fact, the golf was a blast. But I know some raters who would vote harshly on a course with bare patches in the fairways and greens at 8 on the Stimpmeter. I'm not saying they are right, but I think that's why the course is underrated.
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Tom Doak,
Interestingly or coincidently, two fellows who invited me to play their course, began apologizing for it's condition a week before my scheduled round.
When I eventually played there, I saw the "condition", but, that in no way detracted from the quality of the course/architecture.
However, many, to most golfers, especially members of clubs, seem transfixed on conditions, with conditions being at their optimal level, during the entire golfing season.
While I believe that nearly everyone applauds Scott's efforts, conditioning at Yale has been an issue for decades.
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Patrick:
I don't think conditioning should be overlooked when judging a golf course. The important thing was, as I described earlier, I thought the golf course played just fine, in spite of a lot of rough spots.
I just think it's a shame when people judge conditioning, INDEPENDENT OF HOW THE COURSE ACTUALLY PLAYS. We're not out there to award blue ribbons for beautiful grass. We're out there to play the game.
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I don't think conditioning should be overlooked when judging a golf course. The important thing was, as I described earlier, I thought the golf course played just fine, in spite of a lot of rough spots.
I just think it's a shame when people judge conditioning, INDEPENDENT OF HOW THE COURSE ACTUALLY PLAYS. We're not out there to award blue ribbons for beautiful grass. We're out there to play the game.
One of my favourite posts in all my years on this site. Thanks, Tom.
Morfontaine summed this up for me a couple of weeks ago when I was there. Much of it was yellow and brown, rough was rough (like you see in Australia, which for me is how rough should be), but the course was firm, the greens were smooth and a sensible speed and it was set up perfectly for playing golf.
Conditioning matters - and more courses should be conditioned the way the likes of Yale and Morfy are.
Yale is a golf course I reminisce about regularly. I am sure I have begun to forget (22 months since I played it) how overwhelming the scale is, but I still vividly remember being overwhelmed from the 1st tee to the 18th green, and how many times during the round I saw something I'd never seen before - and haven't seen since.