Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mark Saltzman on November 03, 2011, 08:32:05 PM
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In another thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48133.0.html) Matt Ward extolled the virtues of the 14th and 15th holes at Dormie Club in Pinehurst, NC. It seems that almost everyone agreed, but for a single dissenting opinion. I am the second to disagree. N.B. I loved the golf course as a whole.
I am not saying the holes are bad, just that something seems off with them. They are holes that should provide many strategic options/decisions, but I believe for any given player, there will be only a single way to play the hole and this is because of an unbalanced risk/reward equation. On 14 there is too little reward to justify any risk, and on 15 there is too significant a risk to justify the reward.
Let's begin with the 14th. A nice respite after the 500+ yard, into the wind, par 4 13th, no doubt. But, in my mind, it is a very mediocre short par-4.
At 307 yards, uphill, there are only a handful of players who can reach the green from the tee. For this select group, the hole is probably very interesting. I'm not part of this group and could care less how the hole plays for them.
Much like the 14th at Bandon Trails, the ideal tee shot will hug the left side of this fairway, which cants severely from left-to-right. Aside from a steep run-off on the right side of the green, that seems to be where the similarity ends. There will be no debate about whether or not this hole is fair. There is zero reason not to make 4 (or 3). The green is protected by a solitary bunker at the front-right portion of the green (up-and-down from here is not a problem).
Ostensibly (and perhaps in practice) the ideal approach is from the left, where one has a choice between a lofted approach and a ground -game option (though, let's be honest, how many even in this group will opt for anything but the LW from 75 yards). The approach from the right is visually intimidating because of the bunker, but simple in practice. The green slopes somewhat severely from back-left to front-right, making approaches from the right side of the fairway very easy to control once they land on the green (ie they will stop quickly).
A somewhat bad spot (though certainly recoverable - my playing partner made 3 from there) is just short of the bunker leaving a delicate chip.
The only really bad spot off the tee is missing in the left woods.
So here's my question: with woods left and trouble right, it being impossible to reach the green for most players, and an approach from short-right being one of the toughest spots, does this hole not become a bore with the prudent player always hitting hybrid(ish) to the centre/right part of the fairway, and SW into the slope of the green? I understand that in matchplay, things change, but there is no way a thinking player will ever hit driver here. Just so little reward for the added risk.
From the Tee
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/P1140744.jpg)
Approach from the Left
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/P1140745.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/DormieClub-14approach.jpg)
Approach from the Right
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/P1140806.jpg)
Onto hole 15...
A tee shot we've all seen many times before, a forced carry over a diagonal hazard. After the tee shot, however, this is no ordinary hole. An interesting aspect discussed by Ed Oden here (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46385.0.html) is that the green is in view from the tee but is blind from the fairway.
From the tees I played, it is a 215 yard carry over the hazard at the left side of the fairway bunkers. Given the severe angle of the crossing hazard, the carry gets much longer on more aggressive lines. The fairway bunkers (which are a terrible spot to approach from) mean that even for bombers, there is no option to just 'kill it and find it.' The green is probably 340 yards on a straight line and I suppose is reachable for a select few, but again, I don't worry about them.
Off the tee, anything missed just a bit right, to quote Mr. Ward, is "reload city." There is no way anyone will purposely challenge the right side. Given the long carry off the tee, most players will not hit anything but driver. Longer players could challenge the right side by tying to be more precise with hybrid (or similar), but our caddies said that "no one ever, ever tries that. If you can carry with hybrid, great. Hit hybrid just left of the bunkers." So much for options.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/DormieClub-15tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/DormieClub-15teeback.jpg)
Now the hole gets interesting. This picture is taken from the centre of the fairway and on a line that very few players would ever be purposely right of. Clearly, the approach is completely blind, hitting over the hill. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture, but from the right 1/3 of the fairway, one has a clear view of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/P1140750.jpg)
Over the hill is a very unique green, playing at almost a 45 degree angle to the left side of the fairway. There is a signficant downslope short of the green and a huge back ridge the helps stop balls from going over the green (both are very flattened by the camera). The problem is that the target is so narrow that almost no one can aim for it. Our caddies said you just hit the ball up on the hill short of the green and hope it rolls onto the green. Usually it does, but sometimes it doesn't, and then you're screwed. OK, fine, rub of the green and all that, but when approaching from the right you don't have this issue. You have a clearer look up the throat of the green with sideboards. A great opportunity for 3.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/DormieClub-15green.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/DormieClub-15green2.jpg)
And a look at the severe penalty for missing long/right
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/P1140810.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/DormieClub-15behind.jpg)
So here's my problem: This is such a cool approach, but I feel for almost all who play it, too much of it will come down to luck. There is definitely a benefit to being on the right side of the fairway, a big one, but not one big enough to justify a stroke and distance penalty. I think C&C just barely missed the mark here. If the hole was shorter (and the forced carry shorter), it would be exceptional. If the angle of the hazard were not quite as severe, it could be exceptional. As is, it is lay-up tee shot, luck approach, but it could be so much more.
Well, what does the Treehouse think of these holes?
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When I played there last month, I went for it both times. On 14 I made the green. On 15 I visited "reload city"...
#14 offers little challenge if you anything less than driver. #15 is a great hole in my opinion although you are correct in stating that it is a little too severe on the right side. I wonder if C&C made #15 so tough because of the relative ease on #14.
Great course, I really enjoyed it and is a MUST PLAY if you are in the Pinehurst area.
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So here's my question: with woods left and trouble right, it being impossible to reach the green for most players, and an approach from short-right being one of the toughest spots, does this hole not become a bore with the prudent player always hitting hybrid(ish) to the centre/right part of the fairway, and SW into the slope of the green? I understand that in matchplay, things change, but there is no way a thinking player will ever hit driver here. Just so little reward for the added risk.
Mark,
I have caddied at Dormie since the beginning of this year. I can tell you from my experience that 90% of all players hit driver on 14. In my loops at Dormie I have actually seen almost as many birdies on 14 from the left woods as I have from people hitting wedge over the bunker. My explanation for this is that people in the woods concentrate more on hitting a low bump and run and end up with a better result than they expected. People hitting wedge over the bunker struggle with the pin point accuracy that is required to give them a good birdie opportunity. 14 is my favorite hole on the golf course. I love how one bunker and a well-designed green can provide so much interest architecturally.
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Cory,
Thanks for the response.
I am not surprised that most players hit driver. A wise man once said, "the public golfer always hits driver." I am more interested in repeat plays. No doubt you know better than I, but it seems to me that the play is still to bail out right rather than run the risk of challenging the left. I see little or no benefit being on the left because of the shape of the green.
Could this hole be a response to Trails 14? That hole can only be approached from one place. It seems that this hole can be approached from anywhere. The fact that people can make birdie from the left, where I think is the most difficult place to approach the green from, convinces me that I am right.
Perhaps making the hole shorter would make it more interesting?
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Thanks for the thoughtful thread Mark. I would love to see more of these
I have never played the holes but the acid test for me is "does it tempt?". (not an original thought i know). From your pictures and descriptions it appears to me that the 14th would tempt me to hit driver but the 15th would not tempt me to try for the right side of the fairway.
Cory
I thought all of the holes on this course turned left? :)
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No doubt you know better than I, but it seems to me that the play is still to bail out right rather than run the risk of challenging the left. I see little or no benefit being on the left because of the shape of the green.
IMO the best angle is from the left. You have a clear view of the green and the pin, you can hit a bump and run, which I often encourage, and you can use the contours of the green to your advantage. Obviously the low handicapper has more control of their wedge game, but the average player is so concerned about getting over the bunker they struggle to hold the green from the right. What I find fascinating about 14 is the farther you hit it down the right side, the more severe your angle becomes for your second shot. If you hit it far enough, you no longer have to hit it over the bunker, but now the target area is smaller and you are faced with a severe drop off in front of your target. Psychologically, it's a brilliant hole
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I think Cory's analysis of #14 is spot on. I hit driver and would do so again.
As for #15, I don't have the game to challenge the right side. But I'll bet good golfers do all the time. There is a huge reward since it not only shortens the hole, it also provides a clean view and the best angle of approach. Remember, you don't really have to hit the extreme right side to cash your ticket. The cant of the fairway will get you there if you can land just a shade right of center.
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Mark,
What's wrong with a driveable par 4 that most/you can't drive?
307 uphill is a mighty blast, yet certainly doable by some/many these days, particularly given the open approach.
Too many modern par 4's are designed so many/most can have a go, which to me takes away the excitement of doing it
(Do you really want to brag about driving a green everyone can reach?)
Occasionally it's nice to have to blast one to do it
Sure it's less choices, but I'd hit driver as I like to be as close as possible(even though I couldn't reach ;))
I love the simplicity of the hole-and I'd think it was cool if it was 330 -340 yards as well (a really unpopular distance)
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I agree that this is a thoughtful thread and wish more were like it. But I also disagree with the premise. I think 15 offers the best players a large reward for a fairly large risk. Just because my game dictates that I should hit a three wood to the left side means the hole IS strategic. It offers me an option for a safer tee shot, but one that comes with a significant disadvantage: a much more difficult approach. Given the way modern balls/clubs allow good players to hit their drives, their must occassionally be a significant penalty to get their attention (the possible reload) and make them consider the options.
Bart
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Great thread! I think you are being a little severe in your assessments of options on these holes Mark. While most of us can't drive the green on that that short four, don't assume that every player will automatically hit what gets him/her closet for the next shot. Certain days, depending on wind or firmness, many players will hit much less off the tee so they can flight in something different than the stock lob or sand shot.
I've walked the course and seen both of those holes twice, but I'm finally going to tee it up there this weekend and I'm totally juiced to play what I think is a superb golf course. With the proper refinements, the presentation when mature there, in a couple of years, will compare with some of C&C's best from my view. In fact, DC has a good chance of becoming as good an inland course as has been built in the last 10 years if the principles give it the love it deserves.
Take elements of PV, Merion and Pinehurst #2, toss them in a dice shaker and spill them out on that undulating ground...it's pretty damn special!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Great thread, I always enjoy Mark's pictures and we are lucky to have an expert on Dormie like Cory. I have to echo Jason's statement though, I'd been told that all the holes at Dormie went left? :o
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Great thread, I always enjoy Mark's pictures and we are lucky to have an expert on Dormie like Cory. I have to echo Jason's statement though, I'd been told that all the holes at Dormie went left? :o
Did you see the photo of 15? Somebody told you wrong!
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No doubt you know better than I, but it seems to me that the play is still to bail out right rather than run the risk of challenging the left. I see little or no benefit being on the left because of the shape of the green.
IMO the best angle is from the left. You have a clear view of the green and the pin, you can hit a bump and run, which I often encourage, and you can use the contours of the green to your advantage.
Cory,
I'm just going from memory from two plays, so I could be off. The left side of the fairway is ideal - agreed. But what about missing left of the fairway. I recall there being some trees and pine needles over there. And from there does the green not slope directly away from you (because it slopes generally from left to right)? I, fortunately, did not hit one over there, but I think getting the ball on the green from there would be next to impossible.
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As for #15, I don't have the game to challenge the right side. But I'll bet good golfers do all the time.
Ed, I call bullsh*t. You're better than 97.4% of golfers who play Dormie. If you're not going for it, then I don't care about the small percentage of golfers who would. And, I would argue that even they wouldn't as they could hit their approaches high/soft enough from the fairway to land the ball on the green from the blind spot in the fairway.
Agreed about the cant of the fairway. Still, in the 6 or so tee shots that I saw hit the fairway, none caromed enough to find a clear view of the green.
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Mark,
What's wrong with a driveable par 4 that most/you can't drive?
307 uphill is a mighty blast, yet certainly doable by some/many these days, particularly given the open approach.
Too many modern par 4's are designed so many/most can have a go, which to me takes away the excitement of doing it
(Do you really want to brag about driving a green everyone can reach?)
Occasionally it's nice to have to blast one to do it
Sure it's less choices, but I'd hit driver as I like to be as close as possible(even though I couldn't reach ;))
I love the simplicity of the hole-and I'd think it was cool if it was 330 -340 yards as well (a really unpopular distance)
Jeff,
there ain't nothing wrong with it. I haven't found many 'driveable' par-4s that I can drive. I hit it short, hit my wedges well, and make a lot of putts.
But, this one is boring to me. I'll hit 3W, LW every time I play it. I have 60 yards of fairway to hit that 3W and no real care as to what part of the fairway I find. Add a bunker in the centre of the fairway 80 yards short of the green and I have something to think about, but as is... it's a bit dull for me.
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I agree that this is a thoughtful thread and wish more were like it. But I also disagree with the premise. I think 15 offers the best players a large reward for a fairly large risk. Just because my game dictates that I should hit a three wood to the left side means the hole IS strategic. It offers me an option for a safer tee shot, but one that comes with a significant disadvantage: a much more difficult approach. Given the way modern balls/clubs allow good players to hit their drives, their must occassionally be a significant penalty to get their attention (the possible reload) and make them consider the options.
Bart
Bart,
very good points, can't say I disagree. There is a big advantage to being on the right side of the fairway. A very big one, no doubt. It is a completely different hole from there. I just don't think you'll every see a player purposely hit it over there. You sound like a good golfer, Ed's a good golfer, I'm a good golfer, and not one of us would consider trying this shot.
Perhaps if the brush was cleared a bit (they're actually trying to do this now) to the right of the fairway, meaning there would be a chance of finding/hitting the ball from a miss right, the hole gets much better.
I just feel that it is a fantastic design that is just slightly off.
N.B. Playing from the forward tees it is a really fun short par-4. And it's even driveable for me ;D
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Great thread! I think you are being a little severe in your assessments of options on these holes Mark. While most of us can't drive the green on that that short four, don't assume that every player will automatically hit what gets him/her closet for the next shot. Certain days, depending on wind or firmness, many players will hit much less off the tee so they can flight in something different than the stock lob or sand shot.
I've walked the course and seen both of those holes twice, but I'm finally going to tee it up there this weekend and I'm totally juiced to play what I think is a superb golf course. With the proper refinements, the presentation when mature there, in a couple of years, will compare with some of C&C's best from my view. In fact, DC has a good chance of becoming as good an inland course as has been built in the last 10 years if the principles give it the love it deserves.
Take elements of PV, Merion and Pinehurst #2, toss them in a dice shaker and spill them out on that undulating ground...it's pretty damn special!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
Kris,
I may be severe. The holes are good - I'm not saying "Blow up and start over" or whatever the BT quote was. 15 in particular I think could be really special, but I see it as just missing the mark. 14 is fine, but a bit dull. Maybe it gets better on repeat plays, but I'm not seeing it.
You'll love DC, I did. I like to nitpick. I already complained about the Redan at Shinny ???
I haven't done it, but in a hole-by-hole comparison with #2, I'm not sure who wins. DC certainly wins on the 'fun factor'.
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Great thread, I always enjoy Mark's pictures and we are lucky to have an expert on Dormie like Cory. I have to echo Jason's statement though, I'd been told that all the holes at Dormie went left? :o
Sam,
the following holes go left: 2, 4, 8, 10, 17 (and 1 and 18 very gently).
the following holes go right: 15 (and 11 gently)
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Mark, thanks for the photos! I wonder if you have any of the waste/scrub area on the inside of #10, the par 5 (i think)?
Also, how is the overall conditioning and the speed of the greens?
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Mark, thanks for the photos! I wonder if you have any of the waste/scrub area on the inside of #10, the par 5 (i think)?
Also, how is the overall conditioning and the speed of the greens?
Conditioning was close to ideal. Green speeds were perfect given their undulating nature. Course played firm, but not quite as firm as I'd hoped. Short irons stuck (ie didn't bounce) and often spun.
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But what about missing left of the fairway. I recall there being some trees and pine needles over there. And from there does the green not slope directly away from you (because it slopes generally from left to right)? I, fortunately, did not hit one over there, but I think getting the ball on the green from there would be next to impossible.
Not at all. The green does slope left to right but if you have a clear shot from the woods, which obviously is not always the case, then you are able to land it short of the green and run it on, even when the pin is back right, your angle and margin for error are much bigger than from the right side. I watched a guy today punch a 9 iron out of the trees to 6 feet. There is less pressure on you when hitting a simple punch or bump and run. That is what really makes the hole so good IMO. No matter where the pin is, a bold shot down the left side will reward you with an easier birdie opportunity. Miss a little left and you are in the woods, but you still have a chance if you execute properly.
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I missed way left on #14 and found a hole in the trees to hit a lofted shot to the green. Should have made birdie too. I would hit driver again too.
#15 is cool too. I have the distance to challenge the right side but pulled my drive straight and had a horrendous lie between the bunkers. Next time there, I would challenge the right a little more.
I had a great caddie there too.
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As for #15, I don't have the game to challenge the right side. But I'll bet good golfers do all the time.
Ed, I call bullsh*t. You're better than 97.4% of golfers who play Dormie. If you're not going for it, then I don't care about the small percentage of golfers who would.
Isn't it necessary to have occasional holes that only tempt one "class" of golfer? Surely all holes can't be all things to all golfers.
Interesting thread regardless.
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As for #15, I don't have the game to challenge the right side. But I'll bet good golfers do all the time.
Ed, I call bullsh*t. You're better than 97.4% of golfers who play Dormie. If you're not going for it, then I don't care about the small percentage of golfers who would.
Isn't it necessary to have occasional holes that only tempt one "class" of golfer? Surely all holes can't be all things to all golfers.
Interesting thread regardless.
You are probably right. I was questioning whether the risk/reward ratios were off on these two holes, hence the "?" at the end of my thread title.
For me, the ratios are off. I'm fairly certain that both holes would be a lay-up tee shot every time I play them.
I wanted to know if others felt the same way. It seems they don't feel the same, even though most (all except Mr. Franklin) didn't/couldn't challenge the right on 15.
14 is now really confusing me. I guess I'll have to see it again, hopefully sooner rather than later. The picture of the hole I have in my mind is not syncing with how Cory is describing it.
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Mark,
Thanks for the photos....
When I played #14 @ Dormie, it did remind of 14 @ Trails except the hole at Dormie is much tamer and maybe not as drivable... Simple driver, pitch, putt... a birdie hole
15 is the most photographed hole and much talked about...definitely all about the 2nd shot after you reach the fairway...and being a blind 2nd, it is uncomfortable for everyone
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Mark,
I wasn't trying to bust your stones. ;D You point out that brush clearing tweak as a wise move that could really enrich the option of that right side finish of the tee-shot on #15. That is EXACTLY the type of refinement I'm talking about. Every course, even the greatest, come in for some adjustments as the track evolves and play, involving the travails of ALL abilities, reveals where even better golf potential can be teased out of the presentation.
I'll say it again, and after my first actual play of the ground this weekend, will have better reflections on the subject...DC is special!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Mark:
You still have to complete the hole to finish the course and post a score. If you're bored with the hole - guess what... it's in your head and has served it's purpose.
It's not the golf architect's job to provide every shot you intend to hit with inspiration. Try new shots, find the way to make it interesting for you.
Risk/reward ratio? What does that even mean?
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I too am playing Dormie this weekend, and looking forward to these holes.
How long does 15 play?
Does 15 remind anyone else of the 10th at Cuscowilla? Tee shot over a diagonal cross hazard where challenging the right side gives a shorter shot and better angle, while the safer play leaves a longer second but the hill short left of the green allows the option foot land it short and run it onto the green. The shot from the right is not blind at Cuscowilla, and the green is not as severely sloped. At Cuscowilla the miss is short which is better than left which leaves a shot from well below the level of the green or In the bunker left.
J
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15 is an attractive enough hole, but the risk/reward ratio really is terrible. Why risk a 2-shot penalty for what's at best a 1/2 shot reward? Drive left, slop it up over the hill, and 50/50 or better it gets onto the green. And if it doesn't, you still have both a chip or a putt to make your par. It's not as if you are going to make a lot of birdies or even a guaranteed par if you hit the right side of the fairway.
As for dogleg balance, clearly this hole can't offset the six or so holes that swing sharply the other way.
A pretty good course in excellent condition with lots of very good holes. I just don't know that I'd want this set of 18 holes put together in the way they were on this one course.
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I have played Dormie twice and love both holes.
On 14, even if you can't reach the green with a driver, the question off the tee is how close can I get and still be in the fairway. Therefore, club selection is still critical off the tee as you want to be up the left side but don't want to be in the woods. You want to be as close as possible to that green as it is quite small and falls off hard on the right and back-right.
I don't see the problem with 15. Risk/reward is good golf. It is your call on how much risk you want to take. If that was all water short and right of the fairway would we even be discussing this? I mean how is it any different than your standard cape hole. If you hit in the water, it is a reload. If you hit in the scrub it is a reload. If feel like if that was all water down the right side everyone would be praising the hole for its risk/reward options. It is much better to be long and on the right side of the fairway than on the left side behind the hill, especially if the pin is left.
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How long does 15 play?
Jason,
About 400 yards from the back tees. The middle tees were moved up to the tee box with forward set at about 270 (fun hole from here).
15 is an attractive enough hole, but the risk/reward ratio really is terrible. Why risk a 2-shot penalty for what's at best a 1/2 shot reward? Drive left, slop it up over the hill, and 50/50 or better it gets onto the green. And if it doesn't, you still have both a chip or a putt to make your par. It's not as if you are going to make a lot of birdies or even a guaranteed par if you hit the right side of the fairway.
David,
Glad to see at least one other person agrees with me.
On 14, even if you can't reach the green with a driver, the question off the tee is how close can I get and still be in the fairway. Therefore, club selection is still critical off the tee as you want to be up the left side but don't want to be in the woods. You want to be as close as possible to that green as it is quite small and falls off hard on the right and back-right.
Understood. But, once you've made that determination and given that you can't reach the green, aren't you going to be hitting that less than driver club off the tee every single time you play the hole. That was my only comment. Not saying the hole is bad, just repetitive.
I don't see the problem with 15. Risk/reward is good golf. It is your call on how much risk you want to take. If that was all water short and right of the fairway would we even be discussing this? I mean how is it any different than your standard cape hole. If you hit in the water, it is a reload. If you hit in the scrub it is a reload. If feel like if that was all water down the right side everyone would be praising the hole for its risk/reward options. It is much better to be long and on the right side of the fairway than on the left side behind the hill, especially if the pin is left.
Agreed risk/reward is good golf. But, the reward must be sufficient to take on the risk, especially for the scorecard and pencil types, which is most golfers.
The reason it's different than a standard cape is the blindness from the left / benefit for being on the right. On a standard cape, the biggest advantage to cutting the corner is usually a shorter approach. Here there is more than that ... a chance to see the pin and not be subject to the luck of landing on the hill short of the green. My complaint is this hole could be great, much better than a standard cape because of these factors. But, nobody takes on that shot. It is just too difficult. Too long a carry and too small a target to hit to. The only people who hit there (other than a very select few of exceptional golfers) are there by luck.
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Mark/David:
The answer to the question "Why risk a 2-shot penalty for what's best a 1/2 shot reward?" is answered very simply:
When you need to gain that half shot on an opponent or the field.
Why must the reward be sufficient enough to take on the risk?
Aren't there contexts outside of the physical architecture of the hole that make taking on the risk necessary?
This is the 15th hole... a likely hole for the match to be - wait for it - dormie. Wouldn't you go for broke here to gain ANY advantage over your opponent?
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Kyle,
I did say the hole is better as a matchplay hole than a stroke-play hole. Agree there.
You are correct that there are times where outside circumstances may be worth the risk, though they are few.
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Kyle,
In a stroke play event, there's just no logic in taking the risk for such a minimal, nebulous reward. In match play, no way would I ever risk the instant loss of a hole for such a small gain. You can hit it safely anywhere from left edge to the middle of the fairway and still more often than not have a good shot at par. You can still hit the green and make birdie. The effect of the blindness is only at its peak the first time or two you play the hole. Then as long as you know where the pin is it's just another golf shot.
I would consider a shot down the right side if it was the only way to have a shot at the green in two on a par-5. But simply to see the pin when I have a short iron in hand no matter where I am in the fairway, no way. With a perfect view of the cup and PW in hand from 130 yards, you're still not going to make birdie more than one out of three or four times if you are a scratch golfer. Even when blind, that same scratch golfer with the line and distance is still going to hit it in the green and make par or better the vast majority of the time. The further away you are from scratch, the more dangerous the drive to the right and worse the risk/reward ratio becomes.
Mark,
Thanks. If this wasn't a C&C course, I wonder how the discussion would be going. They're my favorite architects and I love their work (Trails is my favorite at Bandon, for instance) but I just can't help but believe that how the course is being looked at is being impacted too greatly by who designed it. It's a good course no doubt. But I'm not seeing whatever it is that has some people extolling it as one of the best courses to come along in years.
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Never played Dormie but it seems like any hole or course that can get this much talk with such a wide range of opinions means that we have a great course and a great hole. Seems like Coore and Crenshaw did their job.
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Never played Dormie but it seems like any hole or course that can get this much talk with such a wide range of opinions means that we have a great course and a great hole. Seems like Coore and Crenshaw did their job.
Sam,
I think it's the clever and captivating title of the thread.
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Never played Dormie but it seems like any hole or course that can get this much talk with such a wide range of opinions means that we have a great course and a great hole. Seems like Coore and Crenshaw did their job.
Sam,
I think it's the clever and captivating title of the thread.
That's why I made the comment earlier in the thread that I like your stuff, you bring these kinds of threads to the board.
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On 14, even if you can't reach the green with a driver, the question off the tee is how close can I get and still be in the fairway. Therefore, club selection is still critical off the tee as you want to be up the left side but don't want to be in the woods. You want to be as close as possible to that green as it is quite small and falls off hard on the right and back-right.
Understood. But, once you've made that determination and given that you can't reach the green, aren't you going to be hitting that less than driver club off the tee every single time you play the hole. That was my only comment. Not saying the hole is bad, just repetitive.
So if a person can't get to the green but could still get let's say 40 yards from the green with a drive, they would automatically hit a hybird or other shorter club that would leave them 100 yards or so? I disagree, I would still want to be as close as possible to that green even if I could only hit it 250. I don't think you automatically hit a shorter club just because you can't reach the green with driver.
I don't see the problem with 15. Risk/reward is good golf. It is your call on how much risk you want to take. If that was all water short and right of the fairway would we even be discussing this? I mean how is it any different than your standard cape hole. If you hit in the water, it is a reload. If you hit in the scrub it is a reload. If feel like if that was all water down the right side everyone would be praising the hole for its risk/reward options. It is much better to be long and on the right side of the fairway than on the left side behind the hill, especially if the pin is left.
Agreed risk/reward is good golf. But, the reward must be sufficient to take on the risk, especially for the scorecard and pencil types, which is most golfers.
The reason it's different than a standard cape is the blindness from the left / benefit for being on the right. On a standard cape, the biggest advantage to cutting the corner is usually a shorter approach. Here there is more than that ... a chance to see the pin and not be subject to the luck of landing on the hill short of the green. My complaint is this hole could be great, much better than a standard cape because of these factors. But, nobody takes on that shot. It is just too difficult. Too long a carry and too small a target to hit to. The only people who hit there (other than a very select few of exceptional golfers) are there by luck.
Doesn't this make the risk even more worth it than a standard cape hole because you do gain so much more than just distance? You get a bigger reward than just a standard cape hole. I am about an 8 handicap and I took the shot on both times I played it. Once I made it, once I reloaded. I don't think the target is too small and I don't think too many people get there by luck.
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David,
I agree with everything you said.
I know how I think and how I play. Based on what I saw I would always hit less than driver on 14 and not really challenge the left. On 15 I would never challenge the right.
I just wanted to know if others thought the same way or if they saw the holes differently. I can only vouch for the way I play golf.
I never said for sure that the risk/reward ratios were off, just that they were off for me. Hence the "?" in the title of my thread.
I appreciate your viewpoint.
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Mark,
Just some of the beauty of this game. So many different ways to approach it.
Good thread though. This has been interesting discussion.
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Doesn't this make the risk even more worth it than a standard cape hole because you do gain so much more than just distance? You get a bigger reward than just a standard cape hole. I am about an 8 handicap and I took the shot on both times I played it. Once I made it, once I reloaded. I don't think the target is too small and I don't think too many people get there by luck.
This is probably a pretty typical result achieved by a decent player taking the risk option. Two over at least on two tries. Same player goes left or center, and an 8-handicapper is likely to make at least one par and not worse than bogey on the other play. I don't see how the risk/reward comes close to balancing out, let alone lie in favor of taking the risk.
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This is a really good thread, just played Dormie for the 2nd time a couple weeks ago. I'm curious what others think after more plays since this thread was posted. I think the cant of the fairways removes some of the strategy on 14. I think better players can use the cant on 15. I'm curious as to if a containment bunker was used to buffer the gunch if more would go for it. Maybe it is just great how it is. I really think 8 is the hole that is more out of place (the green).
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I have no real problem with 14, it's just too much like the Bandon Trails no. 14.
My beef with 15 is that the long walk around the wetland makes the player forces the player to lose touch with the hole. One of the reasons why Dormie is a rough walk. They could not afford a bridge or elevated crosswalk???
On past Dormie threads, Sean A & I have agreed that the par 5's (holes 6, 10 & 17) are the weak points. However, the Confidential Guide make positive note of the hillside bunker below the 17th green. The bunker is severely anti-run-up shot.
Why no mention of the tee shot at 18? Wouldn't it be a lay up for a long hitter?
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I have no real problem with 14, it's just too much like the Bandon Trails no. 14.
My beef with 15 is that the long walk around the wetland makes the player forces the player to lose touch with the hole. One of the reasons why Dormie is a rough walk. They could not afford a bridge or elevated crosswalk???
On past Dormie threads, Sean A & I have agreed that the par 5's (holes 6, 10 & 17) are the weak points. However, the Confidential Guide make positive note of the hillside bunker below the 17th green. The bunker is severely anti-run-up shot.
Why no mention of the tee shot at 18? Wouldn't it be a lay up for a long hitter?
Carl,
I agree with the lack of crosswalk/bridge on 15. I really disagree with you in regards to the Par 5's. The 6th hole and the 17th holes are really good imo. The 10th I'm indifferent about. Why should a par 5 like 17 need a run up aspect? The bunker is a true hazard and is to be avoided, there is room between it and the green.
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The comments on 14 are curious. The hole strikes me as extremely strategic with the best place to be on the dangerous left side and tons of room right leaving nearly a progressively more difficult shot the further right one goes. While not a terribly exciting or attractive hole (visually it does look a bit weird), I don't understand why its an issue if some golfers choose the layup off the tee much of the time. For me its certainly tempting to gain the distance advantage with the driver because it can potentially offer me the option of ground or air.
15 is practically the exact opposite in that it is an extremely penal hole with the long carry. There is no question that for my game going right is not an option. I have to aim for the bunkers which will not leave a good angle of approach and it will be blind. That said, if one is confident with the yardage, middle of the green does the job nicely for a relatively simple two putt. Missing anywhere but short is very troublesome. To me, this is an execution hole pure and simple. Do what you are told and tickity boo. Nothing wrong with that sort of hole once in a while. Like others have said, the big issue which spoils the hole is the walk...and for me, this is the biggest issue with the course...a disjointed design which takes the golfer away from the field of play way too often.
Ciao
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A pretty good course in excellent condition with lots of very good holes. I just don't know that I'd want this set of 18 holes put together in the way they were on this one course.
The best summation of Dormie Club that I've seen yet.
14 is mediocre. There's a certain crowd that wants to proclaim every par 4 under 320 yards as a stroke of genius, but I don't see it here. Personally I'm with Mark - it's not a very interesting hole for me. Lay it up, pitch it on, move on with life. This nonsense about playing to the left and then hitting a 70 yard bump-and-run is the kind of thing architecture nerds like us do for kicks, but it's not a reasonable way to play the hole in any kind of competition (including a friendly wager) for someone better than a 25 handicap.
I don't think the issue with 15 lies in the severity of the angle at which the hazard crosses or the length of the carry. Instead, I think it's a simple issue of the playing corridor being too narrow. A good drive for me can make it to the first of the two twin bunkers. At that distance, the entire corridor is only about 30 yards wide. For bigger hitters who can get up to the second bunker, the corridor is about 20 yards wide. Anything missing the fairway is either lost or completely hosed. It looks like a strategic and interesting hole from the tee, but in reality it's target golf with highbrow aesthetics and the only place to hit a tee shot is the 40 yard wide oval of fairway between the scrape bunker on the far left of the hole and the first of the two twins. It has the look of a postmodern minimalist strategic marvel, but the playing qualities are straight out of an early '80s Nicklaus design.
That's not to say that either of the holes are bad, but they follow a stretch of very difficult and/or repetitive golf from 8-13, which is full of sloggy holes interrupted only by a pair of uphill par 3s. By the time you finish 13, you're ready for something different and excited for the scoring opportunities promised by 14 and 15. And while they're certainly easier than the holes that came before, the fact that they just aren't all that interesting is a disappointment.
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Firstly, I was very impressed with Dormie Club as a whole. It was a really enjoyable round of golf. I played from the tips. On 14, I hit driver and ended up just right of the green. Hit a delicate little pitch to a couple of feet and made 3. I thought that it was an entertaining short par 4 with one bunker. If you can keep it short and/or left, that is clearly the preferred position. Pitches from the right side can be really tricky if you get too close to the green.
I thought that 15 was the weakest hole on the course. From the tee, I did not see any viable option other than a long iron lay-up short and left of the bunkers. From there, it was an awkward approach shot to an interesting green site. However, the right side seemed extremely penal and the hole seemed very out of character with the rest of the course. The corridor is simply too narrow. I did not see many strategic choices. Two demanding shots in a row must be executed or else. My sour opinion of 15 was tempered by my enjoyment of 17 which I found to be a nice hole.
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A pretty good course in excellent condition with lots of very good holes. I just don't know that I'd want this set of 18 holes put together in the way they were on this one course.
The best summation of Dormie Club that I've seen yet.
These are interesting comments to me. I have kind of felt the same way on the last two C&C courses I've played. Both Streamsong Red and Cuscowilla are both excellent courses, I enjoyed them, but there is something about them that makes me not enjoy them as much as I should.
I think the sequencing of holes has a large part to do with that. The individual holes themselves are great, but a little something is "off" with the courses as a whole.
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Kyle,
In a stroke play event, there's just no logic in taking the risk for such a minimal, nebulous reward. In match play, no way would I ever risk the instant loss of a hole for such a small gain. You can hit it safely anywhere from left edge to the middle of the fairway and still more often than not have a good shot at par. You can still hit the green and make birdie. The effect of the blindness is only at its peak the first time or two you play the hole. Then as long as you know where the pin is it's just another golf shot.
I would consider a shot down the right side if it was the only way to have a shot at the green in two on a par-5. But simply to see the pin when I have a short iron in hand no matter where I am in the fairway, no way. With a perfect view of the cup and PW in hand from 130 yards, you're still not going to make birdie more than one out of three or four times if you are a scratch golfer. Even when blind, that same scratch golfer with the line and distance is still going to hit it in the green and make par or better the vast majority of the time. The further away you are from scratch, the more dangerous the drive to the right and worse the risk/reward ratio becomes.
Mark,
Thanks. If this wasn't a C&C course, I wonder how the discussion would be going. They're my favorite architects and I love their work (Trails is my favorite at Bandon, for instance) but I just can't help but believe that how the course is being looked at is being impacted too greatly by who designed it. It's a good course no doubt. But I'm not seeing whatever it is that has some people extolling it as one of the best courses to come along in years.
David,
I see what you are saying as it relates to GCA.com. However I disagree slightly with you. I feel the reason why Dormie is considered as best course to come along in year (which I agree), is I believe most people love it for the land is so good. It really has great change of elevation and natural features galore. I just don't think much great stuff has come along in years and I'm not a retail golfer. I can justify playing Dormie in November and $69 is a very fair fee. What are some of the best courses to come along in years that one can play for $150 or less?
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If you're going to count shoulder-season rates, then it certainly doesn't compete with the courses at Bandon. A short list of public courses built since 1995 that I would play before I would go back to Dormie Club and can be played for under $150:
The Prairie Club (both courses)
Wild Horse
The Harvester
Rustic Canyon
Arcadia Bluffs
The Trophy Club
Colbert Hills
The Kampen Course
Some of these are architecturally significant to GCA hipsters, and some are just good fun golf courses that I get a kick out of, but I'd be more excited to be standing on the first tee at any of them than Dormie Club. It has most of the ingredients of an excellent course, a beautiful property, and a handful of great holes, but the truth is I just don't enjoy playing it all that much and I'd rather play 6 or 7 courses in the area over it.
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The comments on 14 are curious. The hole strikes me as extremely strategic with the best place to be on the dangerous left side and tons of room right leaving nearly a progressively more difficult shot the further right one goes. While not a terribly exciting or attractive hole (visually it does look a bit weird), I don't understand why its an issue if some golfers choose the layup off the tee much of the time. For me its certainly tempting to gain the distance advantage with the driver because it can potentially offer me the option of ground or air.
15 is practically the exact opposite in that it is an extremely penal hole with the long carry. There is no question that for my game going right is not an option. I have to aim for the bunkers which will not leave a good angle of approach and it will be blind. That said, if one is confident with the yardage, middle of the green does the job nicely for a relatively simple two putt. Missing anywhere but short is very troublesome. To me, this is an execution hole pure and simple. Do what you are told and tickity boo. Nothing wrong with that sort of hole once in a while. Like others have said, the big issue which spoils the hole is the walk...and for me, this is the biggest issue with the course...a disjointed design which takes the golfer away from the field of play way too often.
Ciao
Agree on 14. When the hole is cut on the right half of the green - which it usually is - the left side of the fairway is where you want to be.
I think 15 is less a good hole than a solution to a problem. Somehow the course had to get past the long stretch of wetland that run between the two lakes. The green site is so good that the drive is a throwaway - play something safe and move on. Your point on the walk is exactly right. Early on, there was a maintained path, bridge, and rock steps over the wetlands which gave almost a straight line to the fairway. It hasn't been maintained in years. Same with a path to the right of the wetlands on #2.
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I think the 14th is a great short par 4 because the penal aspects of the hole do not appear to be that difficult, but they actually are. Even when your tee shot is out of place on the right, a recovery doesn't seem far fetched. But for me, a 60-70 yard pitch from right of that bunker is incredibly difficult because of how steep the right side of the green falls off.
I like the hole because of how tempting it looks from the tee with only one trap staring at you. It tempts you into being aggressive because of the width and then it is very easy to make bogey when your second shot is only a short wedge. If this hole were narrow the decision on the tee would simply be an iron, but the width gives the player too much confidence on the tee and this can lead to a more aggressive play. I was tempted into hitting driver, then had the pleasure of leaving my pitch short and watching it roll back to me...
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The comments on 14 are curious. The hole strikes me as extremely strategic with the best place to be on the dangerous left side and tons of room right leaving nearly a progressively more difficult shot the further right one goes. While not a terribly exciting or attractive hole (visually it does look a bit weird), I don't understand why its an issue if some golfers choose the layup off the tee much of the time. For me its certainly tempting to gain the distance advantage with the driver because it can potentially offer me the option of ground or air.
I'm with you on this one Sean_A. But perhaps some of the misunderstanding from those who think it's a bad hole comes from the false perception that a 110-yard wedge shot is easier than a 40-yard wedge shot? There's an increasing benefit to being close to the green.
When I played it, I considered a 4I, Hybrid, 3W, and driver. I hit a 3W that I intended to hit toward the bunker - a bit right or left and I would be fine, too. I over-drew it left, got a reasonable lie on the edge of the scruffy parts, and chipped to 20 feet from 30 yards out or whatever it was.
Were I to play it again, I'd try driver, and probably settle on the play I made: a 3-wood. The area near the front of the green is nearly 60 yards wide, and there's a good fraction of a stroke to be saved being closer to the green. Even being in the greenside bunker isn't a terrible spot - it's not got Riviera's 10th green behind it, and in fact, it slopes slightly toward the bunker.
So laying up with a hybrid or long iron only ever makes sense if you're having a really bad day with your 3-wood/driver.
15 is practically the exact opposite in that it is an extremely penal hole with the long carry. There is no question that for my game going right is not an option. I have to aim for the bunkers which will not leave a good angle of approach and it will be blind. That said, if one is confident with the yardage, middle of the green does the job nicely for a relatively simple two putt. Missing anywhere but short is very troublesome. To me, this is an execution hole pure and simple. Do what you are told and tickity boo. Nothing wrong with that sort of hole once in a while. Like others have said, the big issue which spoils the hole is the walk...and for me, this is the biggest issue with the course...a disjointed design which takes the golfer away from the field of play way too often.
I played a cut at the left bunker. The ball rolled up the hill a bit, down, and finished on a flat area even with the farthest edge of the farthest bunker, with a view of about 3/4 of the green. I used the slope left to funnel the ball down to about 10' from the front-right hole location.
Again those suggesting that the play is simply to bail out way left are overlooking the fractional strokes gained by not only hitting the ball to 80 yards instead of 130, but having a view of the green, too.
Decent golfers, generally speaking, play too safely. They leave themselves longer clubs in than they should, and they under-estimate the value of being 20 yards, or 40 yards, or even closer, particularly when it's a partial wedge. I have a lot of data on this, and at every level of the game, generally speaking, the closer you are to the hole before the shot, the closer to the hole your shot will finish, on average. That's not true for everyone, but it's true far more often than it's not.
14 is mediocre. There's a certain crowd that wants to proclaim every par 4 under 320 yards as a stroke of genius, but I don't see it here. Personally I'm with Mark - it's not a very interesting hole for me. Lay it up, pitch it on, move on with life. This nonsense about playing to the left and then hitting a 70 yard bump-and-run is the kind of thing architecture nerds like us do for kicks, but it's not a reasonable way to play the hole in any kind of competition (including a friendly wager) for someone better than a 25 handicap.
Yeah, I don't agree… And I'm a +1. I'd play it with driver or 3W every time. There would almost never be a time when I'd "lay it up." Statistically, that makes very little sense. Only if you couldn't hit a 60-yard wide area with a 3-wood or your bunker game is literally among the worst ever seen should you try to leave yourself 90+ yards out.
I don't think the issue with 15 lies in the severity of the angle at which the hazard crosses or the length of the carry. Instead, I think it's a simple issue of the playing corridor being too narrow. A good drive for me can make it to the first of the two twin bunkers. At that distance, the entire corridor is only about 30 yards wide.
It's not 30 yards wide in the direction of the tee shot. It's nearly 80 yards "wide" on that line. And, there's a big slope that makes the landing zone "deeper" too.
For bigger hitters who can get up to the second bunker, the corridor is about 20 yards wide. Anything missing the fairway is either lost or completely hosed. It looks like a strategic and interesting hole from the tee, but in reality it's target golf with highbrow aesthetics and the only place to hit a tee shot is the 40 yard wide oval of fairway between the scrape bunker on the far left of the hole and the first of the two twins. It has the look of a postmodern minimalist strategic marvel, but the playing qualities are straight out of an early '80s Nicklaus design.
Again, I think you're under-valuing what 45 yards of additional gains can get you.
Maybe, for your game, those 80-yard shots are just terrible. But being closer to the hole - 80 yards instead of 125 - is worth a fraction of a stroke. (And I'm not talking about 1/1000th. On the PGA Tour, 125 to 80 saves over a tenth of a shot.)
That's not to say that either of the holes are bad, but they follow a stretch of very difficult and/or repetitive golf from 8-13, which is full of sloggy holes interrupted only by a pair of uphill par 3s. By the time you finish 13, you're ready for something different and excited for the scoring opportunities promised by 14 and 15. And while they're certainly easier than the holes that came before, the fact that they just aren't all that interesting is a disappointment.
My group found them very interesting. We had a long discussion, most of us chose different options based on our games, and we measured many things in coming to the conclusions we each came to. The wind when we played it was mostly into us on 15, and thus across from the right on 14.
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This is a timely bump, as I will be at Dormie this weekend. I've played it a half dozen times (and love it), but the other 3 guys in my group have never been there. They have varying skill levels and length, and aren't gca nerds. I'll be sure to get their views and report back.
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This is a timely bump, as I will be at Dormie this weekend. I've played it a half dozen times (and love it), but the other 3 guys in my group have never been there. They have varying skill levels and length, and aren't gca nerds. I'll be sure to get their views and report back.
What sort of debriefing and confidentiality agreement are you going to require of these guys at the end of the weekend? I’m pretty sure that when there are “civilians” in the group with a 3/1 non nerd to nerd ratio that the interviews are historically held in Roswell, New Mexico. Safety first!
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This is a timely bump, as I will be at Dormie this weekend. I've played it a half dozen times (and love it), but the other 3 guys in my group have never been there. They have varying skill levels and length, and aren't gca nerds. I'll be sure to get their views and report back.
Most of the discussion here has been about either holes 14/15 or whether the club was private or not (a really old topic). I am probably going to create a new topic here that's more up to date and deals with the course in general. I have a few more recent pictures, too.
So if that's okay maybe it'll be up by the time you're done playing this weekend. Have a great round! I hope the weather is as great for you as it was for me.
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As others have noted, this really was a terrific thread.
But I have to say, I must’ve badly ‘misread’ C&C’s intentions for 15, because no one except Erik mentioned playing the hole the way I assumed C&C wanted/expected it to be played.
On reading about it, my first thought was that C&C were giving the average golfer a break, ie recognizing that the majority of average golfers are much more likely to fade than to draw their tee shots, they designed a hole with the shortest carry on the left side, and a fairway canted down from left to right — so that just about everyone could take the safe route, enjoy watching their ball easily carry the hazard and start fading safely to the right (there being no likelihood of anyone actually hitting it as far/into those bunkers on the left), and then happily see it being helped down further right (to the preferred angle of approach) by the slope in the fairway.
And all this as a kind of gift to the average golfer, after having many other holes bending to the left and thus asking for a draw.
As I say, I thought that’s how the hole was designed to be played, ie to look much harder than it actually plays for the right-handed average golfer.
But it seems from reading the responses that, ironically, it was only Erik, the very good/+1 golfer, who saw it/figured it out and reaped the benefits.
Peter
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I was recently down to Dormie and I was told the course has been sold - anyone know if it is true and what is to be expected with new ownership?
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Pietro
I think you are being led down the garden path. The carry from the white tees is close to 220 yards online to the double bunkers....very few golfers can even attempt this shot let alone going further right. The average golfer, shpuld he be playing one of the tees on the far side of the shit, is simply hoping to clear it. The main bit of the slope right is from the far side of the fairway and will not offer a view of the green. See below for a tee shot fairly far right online with double bunkers. I think this is one of the best holes at Dormie, but not the piece of piss people are selling it as. Anything to the left side of the fairway leaves a very difficult, blind approach with trees crowding from the left. People are suggesting this hole is strategic, but the carry makes it an overwhelmingly penal hole which favours big hitters quite a bit.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4235/34403322413_05240a4cac_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4235/34403322413_05240a4cac_b.jpg)
Ciao
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FWIW I like the look of the 14th. There are holes like this at both Carlisle GC and Downfield GC (as I remember them). Short par 4's played slightly uphill with left to right slope and tree belt on left. Can't recall whether Carlisle and Downfield have one or two guarding bunkers front right but they perform the same function. Anything hit to the right of the fairway means hitting into the face of the slope of the green but you do have to play over the bunkers, while a drive up the left gives a clear view but then you have to make allowances for the pronounced left to right slope of the green with your approach.
A simple design and that's fun to play. You have to give credit I think for resisting the temptation to overly bunker a short par 4.
I also like the look of the 15th. The advantage of an approach from the right is I suppose having to allow for less slope. Looks good to me.
Question to Mark, several years down the line since you started this thread and presumably you've played the course a few more times, have your views changed ?
Niall