Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Dave Givnish on September 14, 2011, 06:57:01 PM
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Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?
Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now. We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board. Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them. The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average. We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men. We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas. The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.
I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.
Thanks
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Let me throw this out. I think if your objective is to be a golf club, then trolleys and push carts should not be an issue. If members' objective is to be a status club, hanging on the golf hook, then you've got to do one of two things: (1) work to change the mindset of the members away from the status club and toward the golf club or (2), which is probably easier, try to convince them that trolleys and push carts don't detract from the status approach. I'd point to the high status courses in Scotland, the "home of golf," like Royal Troon and Murfield and all the others, where the members use trollys, and moreover, distain buggies, i.e., golf carts, as unbefitting the real golfer. See if you can get that through their heads. In fact, maybe you could convince them that the highest status would be achieved if carts were prohibited, except when medically necessary [of, if the heat makes play without carts impossible in the summer -- I'm not sure what the summer climate is like at your course].
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The hard part is that nobody really listens unless you're on the board or have an influential member on your side. Typically the higher status the club, the more the members admire the status quo. You may need to be quietly subversive until you can get enough members on your side to make an impact. Maybe identify the frequent walkers and bring up the topic of wheels for walkers!
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How about the stealth approach of bringing them in the off-season? I'm not sure whether we did that at DF, but the summer temps got a few bags off shoulders and onto trolleys.
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Dave,
Are your push carts uniform in color and model a la Merion West?
Is there a rental charge?
Are times limited when they can used?
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Bob H will know the details but MPCC has free trollies available for everyone. I love the policy for it promotes walking ie better golf experience and better for health. Olympic Club has it under review right now. I sent in my 2 cents voting for it and giving reasons. I frankly do not understand how a private club can have an anti trolly policy. I understand the arguments but the justifications are pitiful and lacking in merit. Champions opened up trolly usage and it took off like these Texas wild fires. My Saturday games their are 90% walkers now because of trollies.
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in our case it took our more expensive neighbor going to them. we borrowed one of theirs to show that they looked and worked well.Then several people threatened to quit if we did not get them and we agreed to use only those the club would buy and that we would pay 10 dollars per round.They are very popular except during the summer.They seem to be accepted but the day they are gone so am I.
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Dave Givnish -
Congratulations on mission accomplished!
In addition to Monterey Peninisula CC, other well-known clubs in Northern California that now have a fleet of 3-wheel push carts available for their walking members & guests are the California Golf Club, Lake Merced and Sonoma.
DT
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Here is Australia - pull trolleys are the norm. Carts generally for mostly resort type courses.
Most clubs allow members to use their own, or supply them for a small charge $5-$10.
I would go so far as to say that every single (99.9%)golfer in Australia has their own pull trolley/buggy either in their car, at their club(stored in a shed) or in their garage/shed at home.
it seems ludicrous that there are golf clubs that ban a golfer from using his own legs to get around a golf course, either carrying or pulling.
Dave, I would add the approach that is far less heavy traffic on your turf (assuming you aren't wall to wall cart paths), greener more environementally friendly, the next capital expenditure budget can be slashed as you wont need to upgrade the cart fleet, and reduce the repairs and maintenance on the cart fleet. You could offer to store members clubs, bag and trolley in part of the cart shed storage that will no longer be needed - even if you reduced by 30% cart usuage, the impact across the club and membership would be noticeable, and maybe even around the wasteline.
Rounds of golf would also reduce in time, as it is faster to walk than ride (assuming green to tee travel is not huge).
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It's difficult to think of courses without trollies!
Usually preferring to pack, the new 3-wheel versions with a basket to hold stuff are great as you only have to push them along vs. lift and push and rarely have to dig into your bag. The battery operated trollies are also great stuff; like playing with a caddie.
Seems like the method at Dave's club was a good way to introduce them to a perhaps skeptical membership. A few of them so the members could look at the odd contraption and wonder what it was used for and then expanding as demand increased.
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Golf Trolleys, Golf Carts and golf Buggies.
If you can’t beat them then join them is possibly a way forward, so to this end my family and I are investing our money where our mouth and what’s more going to promote environmental friendly golf carts.
As some may understand this decision was not done on the spur of the moment but with great care and in depth planning. Our first task was to look at the available models but we had to discard them due to poor longevity and/or duration of the product. Fuel was another problem, what happens if the Cart runs to a stop, way out in the front or back 9 where no electrical recharging or diesel station to quickly refills to enable the players to continue. The choice in the end was easy, renewable energy, wood, peat, straw, hay etc., etc. anything to heat water. Giving the two items needed, combustible material and water to convert into steam, most of which many will be available on 90% of Golf courses.
Thus having resolved the fuel we thought of the hot environment and sought to have some form of protection from the sun or rain in the form of a roof. We have also decided to utilise a three wheeler and four wheeler models with standing or seating facilities subject to just how traditional the play wishes to remain. We have also introducing a Sporty model to improve round times for those just trying to squeeze in an after work 9 Hole game before the light fails.
Our Robust Model Range with a Warranty that could outlive you.
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/FowlerGolfBuggywithmultibagstorageattachmenttorear.jpg)
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/MarshCart.jpg)
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/SportyModel3WheelerforLandNotFitForPurposeCart.jpg)
As previously mentioned we are forced down this line by the intransigence of clubs and players continuing to deface the quality game that Golf can be if only WALKED. Therefore our selections from fuel through to 3- 4 wheelers is based given these players and courses that tolerate carts what they really deserve. That is apart from high purchase cost of our carts to the extremely expensive maintenance they generate both in course repair and cart maintenance.
“What goes around comes around” & When playing Golf please use environmentally energy, your Fuc@in& Legs.
This is a sponsored advert on behalf of the ‘Carts Must Go Campaign’ (CMGC) and fully endorsed by Melvyn
Please note that Walking is an important part of the current Public Health Survival Directive and should not be ignored as could seriously damage your future health.
Melvyn
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Melvyn, this thread is about trollies, which we call pull or push carts here in the colonies. This type of conveyance facilitates walking.
Carry on!
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I am afraid Melvyn may be coming down with a case of hoof and mouth disease.
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Melvyn - good to steamroll right through the topic. :) "Use your fu&@(ng legs" - that would look great on a hat, wouldn't it? May have to talk with Rob Rigg about using that for The Walking Golfers Society tagline.
Steve - we have added them over time, most are black, but we do have them in several colors. Uniform appearance of the trolleys isn't relevant to us, but I can see where it would be in some club cultures. I'm glad to see that Merion has them on the West course. Do any of the other old line Philly clubs have them?
Having them has helped us make the members' experience better and emphasizes how easy the course is to walk to prospective members. Not too many courses in Scottsdale and Carefree are walkable, so this is a good distinction for us to make.
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Quaker Ridge in Scarsdale, NY has a robust caddie program but allows push carts (trollies) when caddies are not available or, I believe, late in the afternoon. I would say most of the caddies in the shoulder seasons are back at high school or college so the push carts are a nice and healthier alternative to plopping one's butt in a golf cart.
As a past Green Chairman at Sunningdale CC, I am interested in this thread. During my tenure, I could not steer our golfing leadership past the "status" hurdle. They maintained that the push cart look is not in keeping with a club trying to appeal to the high end. I have always maintained that successful clubs are comfortable in their own skin and do not care what others think. They tend to go their own way. It has been my observation that the decisions they make tend to be "old school."
Round Hill Club in Greenwich, CT is a quiet, old school club. They have a terrific caddie program, and yet late in the afternoon, you will see members pushing (or pulling) their sticks. Pretty cool.
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Michael Moss,isn't QR running the risk of hurting their caddie program?If Member A can use a pull cart some of the time,he'll eventually want to use it more frequently.Maybe he doesn't want to pay the caddie fee.After a while,the caddie program might be harder to justify.
It would seem to be a very difficult,if not impossible,balance between pull carts and maintaining a caddie program.
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In GB&I it seems like it is not necessarily a choice between a caddy or a trolley, but that you may get a caddy with a trolley. Does that happen anywhere in the U.S.? I have seen people who have a caddy drive a cart while they walk which always seems weird to me, but maybe they are inspired by the senior tour.
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Brett - One of our members who grew up in Melbourne throws his staff bag on a trolley and walks. Says that it makes him feel like he is at home. We may have to get him some vegemite at the turn.
It seems that the concern about status is misplaced if this many top-tier U.S. clubs have them.
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I recently played at the Valley Club and La Cumbre, the top privates in Santa Barbara. Both clubs loaned us Sun Mountain speed carts, gratis.
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I recall playing The Valley Club in Hailey,ID several times. The club and its members (not sure what the cost to the membership was/round) had the motorized hand carts for use to promote a more walking membership. The motorized hand carts were well used and received by the membership.
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Dave
My apologies, I was not trying to walk through your thread, far from it, as trolleys or push carts are a norm here in GB. Be it week-ends or week days, you see the faithful setting out, pushing their clubs before them. It’s a great alternative to using a Caddie and fits the Scottish pocket much better (Caddies are a wee bit expensive for us poor minority up in the North of the British Isles, come to think of it, its expensive period for a Scotsman even when its free)
The main point really is that these little trollies still allow the golfer to walk as one ages or find carrying a bag difficult. The other option is just to carry a 3 & 9 Iron with a putter (normal one, of course). It’s also better than listening to the sound of the new style drivers, they should be banned just for the pathetic noise they make when contacting the ball, like a Virgin breaking wind (so I have been told as we seem short of Virgins in GB these days).
All round, the push carts are by far the best if one is not going to carry ones clubs for whatever reason. You are still walking and do not have to keep telling the Caddie not to interfere or make suggestions as how to play the next shot. Push carts or better still two or three wheelers called ‘Silent Caddies’.
Good luck with the Virgin, no, sorry meant, push carts
Melvyn
PS Bill
I fear for you these days, you seem to be losing your British sense of humour – life is just too serious to always be serious, for a second there when I read Dave’s thread I was wonder if he was suggesting putting handles on carts and pushing them around the course, (now that would make you fit or kill you quick; that would be one quick way of getting the carts banned fitting push handles, don’t you just love it)
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PS Bill
I fear for you these days, you seem to be losing your British sense of humour – life is just too serious to always be serious, for a second there when I read Dave’s thread I was wonder if he was suggesting putting handles on carts and pushing them around the course, (now that would make you fit or kill you quick; that would be one quick way of getting the carts banned fitting push handles, don’t you just love it)
I guess I have to go back to using smilies. ;)
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Melvyn
My next project is to allow dogs on the course during play. Same issues. Common to see in the UK, hen's teeth here. Of course, we have rattlers and bobcats that make things a bit more interesting.
Cheers
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So, in addition to ubiquity in the UK and Australia, we see the embrace of these pro-walking apparatuses at some of America’s top-flight clubs:
Desert Forest
The Valley Club of Montecito
La Cumbre
Merion (West course)
Quaker Ridge
Monterey Peninsula
Sonoma CC
California GC of SF
Lake Merced
Round Hill Club
Champions
Am I missing any? How about Continental Europe… the Dutch, Spanish, and French courses like Royal Hague and Mornfontaine? What's their tradition... I'd imagine walking is the norm?
WW
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Sunnybrook had them.
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Quaker Ridge only allows them I believe in the afternoon, or when there are no caddies available.
Bedford Golf and Tennis in Bedford, NY, a cool Devereux Emmet course, allows trollies.
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Here's a report from my survey of the Philly area "old line" and some "new line" clubs:
Applebrook- allows use of their fleet of pull/push carts after 3pm with a charge of $12.
Cricket- " " " after 2pm with a $10 charge
Stonewall- not available as they have an excellent caddie program.
Fieldstone- " " "
Whitemarsh- " " "
Bidermann- no restrictions on the use of pull/push carts. Members can bring their own or use the club's for $7.
Sunnybrook- " " " $10 charge
Gulph Mills- waiting for Tom Paul's call
Wilmington- waiting for return call from pro
Whitemarsh has had discussions but are concerned that the use of pull/push carts would destroy their excellent caddie program.
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You can add the following clubs from upstate NY that allow push carts:
Oak Hill CC
The Country Club of Rochester
Monroe Golf Club
Crag Burn Club
The only club I can think of that DOESN'T allow them up here is the CC of Buffalo which has a caddie program.
Ekwanok CC in Vermont allows them late afternoon.
I can't imagine a club not allowing them because it doesn't "fit an image." And people wonder why private clubs are struggling and the game is still perceived by many as a stuffy sport.
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No dogs please. Get a personality and you be beating human companionship off with a stick.
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John
Dogs are OK, at least they are generally better behaved than many a golfer I have seen on a golf course or on here come to think of it. Also after a round they are sometimes better company than some you meet in the pub.
John, John, John, where has that dog gone, ah there he is all floppy ears, and with that long tongue a lesbian would kill for. Remind you of anyone, John ??? ;)
Melvyn
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M,
I know that I am flawed in my non love of dogs but the cat is out of the bag on their behavior. How am I supposed to expect a society where people no longer teach their children how to respect proper public decorum to teach their dogs such? I can appreciate people who are proud of their wives or children and dress them up to put them on public display. I will even gladly throw them a look or comment of appreciation for their efforts. Who knows, one day they may be a productive member of society themselves. What I don't need is a Toddlers and Tiaras like parade of trained and groomed dogs marching up the fairway as commands waft from holler to hill. I promise you it would only be a matter of time before Mitzi and Chip have their poodle groomed with a Pro V on the end of its tail. It just won't work in America.
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M,
I know that I am flawed in my non love of dogs but the cat is out of the bag on their behavior. How am I supposed to expect a society where people no longer teach their children how to respect proper public decorum to teach their dogs such? I can appreciate people who are proud of their wives or children and dress them up to put them on public display. I will even gladly throw them a look or comment of appreciation for their efforts. Who knows, one day they may be a productive member of society themselves. What I don't need is a Toddlers and Tiaras like parade of trained and groomed dogs marching up the fairway as commands waft from holler to hill. I promise you it would only be a matter of time before Mitzi and Chip have their poodle groomed with a Pro V on the end of its tail. It just won't work in America.
I have to line up behind John on this one. Although I like some dogs it`s golf and not hunting, right?
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John
Is this from your Facebook page - is that your dog (well I think its a dog) or is that you in your own Golf Bag?
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/JohnsDoginaGolfBag.jpg)
Melvyn
Please do not tell me where you put that tongue, too much info!!!
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M,
I don't have a Facebook page and I don't wear camo.
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Wayne,
In Spain and France, trollies are usually free at private clubs and can be used at any time (very similar to the UK).
Also, in most clubs where pulling a trolley may be to harsh due to elevation changes, heat, etc. electric trolleys are also available for a fee. This takes out the strain of pulling while still allowing people to walk. There is no mandatory cart policies in Spain, France or Portugal (that I am aware of)
In public courses trollies can be used at a fee (both manual and electric).
Regards,
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Alfonso,
Unfortunately, golf in the USA is not generally regarded as a walking experience and hasn't been so since the 1950s as the advent of the gas/electric powered golf car was popularized by President Eisenhower. These devices are revenue generators for private and public course owners. The courses that we're talking about are private and not in financial distress.
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Steve,
I am a member of two private clubs in Spain both of which have no financial distress whatsoever. In both of them the situation is as I described it. It is up to the golfer to choose if he wants to carry, pull, push an electric trolley or drive depending on his desire. I think that is the common attitude in Europe and a particular way of playing is not imposed on members.
I will generally use an electric trolley in one of the clubs (hilly) and a pull trolley in another (flat). I never carry and I only use a cart when it is extremely hot (it gets over 100 in Madrid in the summer months).
Regards,
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Alfonso,maybe it's not so much a question of financial distress as it is budgetary.Over here,many clubs have used the revenue from electric carts to subsidize other areas.Those clubs have become dependent on the cart revenue.Anything,pull carts or caddies,that might take away that revenue would be catastrophic.
A lot of members will like pull carts up until they get an operating assessment due to the drop in cart revenue.
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I'll regret chiming in on one of these threads but here's my two cents.
It's hard to believe I'm the only private-club member with the attitude that I want to play golf however and whenever I prefer to play it and I'm willing to pay my fair share of the money needed by the club. I don't care if they charge me one dollar a month as dues and call the rest of it "cart fees" or "green fees" or if they call it all dues and say that "cart fees" and "green fees"are included.
I don't want a caddie. I don't want a riding cart. I'd probably like having push carts provided by the club but I'm just as happy bringing my own. And I don't want to shirk any of my financial responsibility as a member. It's all good.
How in world do clubs arrive at a point where they would tell someone like me to bugger off and go be a member somewhere else just because I prefer to walk the course and haul my clubs on my shoulder or a push cart, depending on the situation? It's insane.
At a private club, riding carts do not produce revenue. The revenue all comes from the pockets of the members. An accounting fiction which makes it appear that money flows from the carts would seem a first push down the slippery slope that leads to telling members they can not play without using a cart, either always or at certain desirable times.
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Brent
Good for you.
Perhaps I may go further and make a list of Name & Shame clubs that have a down on Walking.
I would happily argue with their Membership that they are not playing the Royal & Ancient Game of Golf but some bastard derivative of the game and under the trades description listing should not be allowed to call themselves a golf club – think that might get them thinking. ??? ;)
Proving that no matter how much money you have, one can still be caught at counterfeiting od selling a fake game to the members, ops a fake Golf club, questions if one wants to be associated with such a place. :o ::)
That will sort the men out from the boys.
Melvyn
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Brent,I'm pretty certain you know that golf is rarely the black hole it's presumed at a private club.It's usually all the other stuff.
The problems began when some club first had the epiphany that the members weren't really members so much as revenue sources.It's been downhill ever since.
The most equitable way to do it would be to just total up all the year's expenses and send everyone a bill on 1 January.I doubt many members would like this approach however.
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Brent,
Well said. I completely agree. Mandatory carts, mandatory caddies - I don't like 'em, at least not for members.
One of my first experiences with private golf was at a very nice course in the Atlanta area. As an unaccompanied guest I had to take a caddie - fine with me. The caddie told me caddies were mandatory, even for members, if they play before 2PM. He said, "can you believe that some of the members actually wait to play until 2PM?" Doing a bit of number crunching in my head, I figured I played at that time about 100 rounds per year at my home club, and at $70 a pop, that would be an additional $7000 expense - almost double my annual dues.
Caddies and caddie programs are great. I just don't get mandatory caddies for members.
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Caddies and caddie programs are great. I just don't get mandatory caddies for members.
I agree.Unfortunately,at all but a small percentage of clubs,you can't have one without the other.
Caddie programs have become expensive luxuries that most don't want to pay for.
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At a private club, riding carts do not produce revenue. The revenue all comes from the pockets of the members. An accounting fiction which makes it appear that money flows from the carts would seem a first push down the slippery slope that leads to telling members they can not play without using a cart, either always or at certain desirable times.
But don't forget about the pro and the extent to which cart use may affect his/her income. If the pro is an independent contractor who owns or leases the carts, having made the financial investment to do so, he/she makes money -- from the members' pockets, of course -- when carts are used. Obviously you can restructure the pro-club relationship and substitute cart income with more direct payments from the Club, but I think that pros often operate under relatively long-term contracts, so often a club has to either take some action to restructure or wait for the deal to expire. Thus while it's always the case that carts don't produce revenue for the club [except maybe in the case of outings], sometimes they do produce revenue for the pro, which can create potentially negative incentives.
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Carl
Just goes to show that golf is just about money. Pity that the games has lost its identity, not knowing if it’s the genuine article or just a bastardised copy of once a wonderful game.
The Pros should concentrate on the Game, actually touching on GCA, trying to explain to old and young alike that golf is a thinking game that requires the golfer to read the signs, be it in the landscape, weather conditions of GCA. But alas as we know on this site GCA is just three letters that are meaningless to the majority of players.
We need to focus on the game, how its played and the effect on the course, not forcing changes because it’s good for one’s bank balance. Is this really what golf has become over there?
Melvyn
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Gentlemen,
I suspect here in Oz the problem would be getting trolleys/push carts dis-approved.
As Brett Morrissy said early on in this thread,
"Here in Australia - pull trolleys are the norm. Carts (are) generally for mostly resort type courses.
Most clubs allow members to use their own, or supply them for a small charge $5-$10."
Even on the resort courses where the motorised cart is king there are pull trolleys available for a nominal fee. It is a very rare occurrence that a motorised cart is mandatory.
The club I belong to, Indooroopilly Golf Club (private with limited public access), makes no demands on what mode of bag-toting is employed but, as is normal in Australia, there is no caddy program.
The club leases a large fleet of motorised carts. There is no doubt that it provides quite a substantial flow of cash and is now a teat that the club cannot spit out. The problem is compounded by the fact that an even greater generator of income are the "corporate days". I am sure that without motorised cart availability enquiries to hold corporate days would evaporate and a very profitable little earner would vanish. A distinct majority of members are disappointed with the impact, literally and metaphorically, that the motorised cart has on the course in terms of cart paths and compaction of turf but there will be no turning back.
Steve S...you say "....golf in the USA is not generally regarded as a walking experience and hasn't been so since the 1950s as the advent of the gas/electric powered golf car was popularized........". Is this also the case for your municipal and public courses?
Cheers Colin
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Colin,
Most public courses permit walking,some with restrictions, and provide the pull/push carts for an additional fee. Some exceptions are the difficult to walk mountain type courses or most resort courses where carts are mandatory. Of course, one can walk while the partner in the cart drives in those places.
The most difficult part of the golf culture here is to see teenagers and younger adults using gas/electric golf cars. Most people here don't see walking as part of the golfing experience.
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Some interesting points and takes on power buggies and trolleys, powered and otherwise. Those that don't wish to take caddies or have how they play limited can join clubs without any restrictive playing-policies. I'm not a fan of having to be forced to do anything. The goal should be to provide options of quality and allow players the choice to have the experience.
Some of it is down to club culture. We as individuals can chose in the end. NO ONE is forced to join a club that requires certain things. Many want to join a club but then have a la cart options. That's not generally how it works.
The trend in America to play buggy golf has more to do with the marketing and perception, fostered by the cart companies and the cozy sponsorship relationships with the influencing golf organizations, than anything else...besides laziness(sadly a MAJOR factor). Quite a few of us Yanks still walk, even youth. For a youngster, tooling around in a buggy is fun and cool...of course they'll opt for that...unless THEY(not mommy and daddy money) have to pay for it. The NEED to play out of a cart quickly fades when there is an extra cost attached to them golfing that way.
In the end, we all make choices. Whatever your way, play away!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion. Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money. Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy. I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.
I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory. Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge. The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.” We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes). Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member. Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.
Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.
I cannot understand why noone has tried this out. I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user). It’s something to think about! ;D
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I agree with the comments about US clubs becoming dependent on electric cart revenue. I have plenty of greens and budget experience to pretend otherwise. However, it is like a government agency mindset. I is perceived need not real.budgets can be adjusted and other cost changed to allow for this if the board wants it too.
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Roger,
$14 for a cart fee is a relative bargain. Most private clubs in the Philly are in the $25-30pp range!
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Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion. Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money. Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy. I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.
I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory. Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge. The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.” We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes). Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member. Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.
Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.
I cannot understand why noone has tried this out. I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user). It’s something to think about! ;D
I agree with the idea. One of my biggest complaints as a private club members is being nickle and dimed. Sometime my monthly bills can be 2 pages long and it isnt all dining charges. I would like the idea of just having one bill a year, but due to cash flow, I can only name 3 or 4 clubs that due this and they all have initiation fees of 75k or more.
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Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion. Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money. Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy. I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.
I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory. Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge. The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.” We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes). Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member. Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.
Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.
I cannot understand why noone has tried this out. I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user). It’s something to think about! ;D
Roger,
You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free". Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.
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Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion. Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money. Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy. I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.
I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory. Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge. The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.” We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes). Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member. Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.
Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.
I cannot understand why noone has tried this out. I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user). It’s something to think about! ;D
Roger,
You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free". Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.
Agreed. But Roger is just trying to duplicate his current revenue stream at that number. I wonder what the annual costs of having that level of cart usage are (ie, what part of the 150k covers costs, rather than is net to the club). In any event, i suspect that the incremental cost of each additional round is pretty low.
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Steve
So $14 is all it takes to betray the game you intend playing.
As little as $14 but then I suppose they are keeping the game of golf alive, well that is after destroying the heart and soul of the game.
From memory the real cost should be 30 pieces of silver or pay for the pleasure of riding by first undergoing a frontal lobotomy. Actually any able bodied golfer who rides must have already gone through that procedure to even consider riding.
Golf is not a riding sport, it, like the courses are set up for walking. Yet I am reminded of the following quote ”Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” when what we should be hearing is “Get Thee Behind Me Satan” However ignorance is not an excuse acceptable by the Law nor should we accept it too as $14 for Satan Buggy may lead to dark places.
Melvyn
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Everybody uses then in Australia and can't imagine what the fuss is about.
In Germany they now have titanium buggies/trolleys with small lithium batteries selling for $5000!!
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Everybody uses then in Australia and can't imagine what the fuss is about.
I have no frame of reference for this discussion having never played outside Australia where even a resort will, at worst, raise its' eyebrows if you plan to walk. I think even the dearly departed Kooralbyn Valley rated driving a cart as "highly recommended" given the length of some of the traverses between holes, but not compulsory.
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Mike and others not from the US,
If you are not familiar with the golfing culture in the US in private clubs, then why comment? The fuss is about revenue, status and the possible elimination of excellent caddie programs. See my posts above. We all know about the use of pull/push carts or trollies in the rest of the world. They are indeed used here in most public access courses.
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Bruce,
Certainly that is true in Queensland. We walked Kooralbyn when we played tournaments there - but it was a bad walking course.
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Steve,
Why can't caddies use them? It is easier for caddies to carry but smaller kids could caddy if they could use one.
They are not the reason there are no caddies in Australia - and it is just difficult to understand the status thing.
I understand it but its odd to anyone from the outside.
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Mike,
I don't know of any private clubs in the Philadelphia area where caddies use trollies.
As far as status goes, at Merion,it is my understanding that on the East one must use a caddie or walk and carry their own bag only after a certain time.Trollies or gas/electric cars are not available on East. On the West,the rental trollies can be used without restriction.If I'm wrong on this, will someone advise.
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Slightly tangential - When I was first introduced to the game one of the perks of living at the club (parents were Steward, Stewardess) was that I got to make a little cash caddying. I was club pro Leo's regular caddy for a couple of years, which meant - putting the Dunlop staff bag on the trolley and pulling it, keeping the clubs clean, pacing off yardages and clubbing Leo. It was a great education. But I will never forget the first tournament I caddied. No trolleys allowed! Or at least it wasn't done for a pro's caddy to pull. Man, those 70's bags were heavy! I must have looked like some Dickensian urchin by the end.
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You can do Merion in a cart with a med cert. Did it once, was like chewing gum in church. I was waiting for an old nun to whack me on the head.
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Welcome Ed, so you have posted your first comments, nearly as bad as Teeing off on the 1st at TOC, only difference being the guys here are not into golf as those watching you on TOC. ;)
Say what you feel, don't hold back, it's the only way
Again welcome
Melvyn
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Thank you for your nice note, played TOC in July for the fourth time. That tee shot and Merions first are like sandpapering your fingertips. I hope i can add something to this group,I do some course rating and a lot of traveling so I have seen some good and bad designs. Very pleased to join your group.
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Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion. Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money. Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy. I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.
I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory. Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge. The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.” We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes). Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member. Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.
Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.
I cannot understand why noone has tried this out. I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user). It’s something to think about! ;D
Roger,
You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free". Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.
One of the indisputable facts of life with near infinite applications. Of course, just like with universal healthcare, the only feasible way to limit costs is to curtail the supply through rationing. It would be interesting to see how a limited number of carts get distributed among a membership entitled to ride by virtue of having paid the monthly dues. And why not also include golf balls and F & B in the one-price buffet?
On the revenue side, like any tax, increase the dues and you're likely to have fewer members (reference most vice taxes, e.g. tobacco). It becomes like any other pricing decision on a consumer product- will the increase in the price and the lower cost of operations more than offset the loss in volume (Netflix apparently thought it would).
At a well-known club in Austin which allows pull carts, the outside operations guy hated them because of the amount of work to maintain the fleet (had nothing but bad things to say about the Sun Mountain model) and the loss in riding cart revenues. At another near Dallas, the director of golf told me that he is tasked by his management to "grow the game". He is currently testing couple different pull cart types and says that he is not worried about losing riding revenues. Both of his courses are not easy walks and I suspect that having pull carts available won't make a big dent on riding cart usage.
Pace of play issues will continue to plague walkers at least at private courses in the Southwest. There is absolutely no way that I can get around hoofing it or pulling a cart in nearly the amount of time that I can riding. To the extent that time is a factor in the popularity of the game, push carts may be counterproductive.
Brent,
There are pricing models that might work, but I don't believe that charging people for products or services they don't want is a viable one. The nature of the charges as well as whether they're perceived as "fair" have a bearing. I'd rather not belong to a club which totals up the bill and then divides by the total number of members for very obvious reasons. Riding just like buying golf balls, equipment, F & B should be be a la carte. The pricing should reflect their costs as well as all other economic/business reasons.
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Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion. Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money. Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy. I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.
I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory. Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge. The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.” We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes). Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member. Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.
Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.
I cannot understand why noone has tried this out. I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user). It’s something to think about! ;D
Roger,
You will unfortunately need to charge a higher fee because cart usage will go up once it is "free". Kind of like the number of tees a club has to buy when they "give" them away compared to charging 50 cents a bag.
Allow me to chime in, as a member of Roger's club. John, your point is clear, yet I'm not real sure that usage would go up significantly. We've got walkers and riders. The course is very walkable. The guys and gals who like to walk, walk, while those who don't, the riders, pay their $15.00 [$13.99 + $1.01 tax] per round and ride. The walkers, at least the ones I know, mostly older members, are still going to walk even if the cart usage is "free." We have a bit of a walking culture. On the other hand, I'm not real sure if the walkers would want to pay an additional $300 per year to subsidize the riders, which is the way they would look at it. For me, personally, I'll always walk if and when permitted (as long as I remain fit and healthy enough), unless it's too darn hot, and then I'll rent a cart. Personally, I think I'd probably lose a few bucks on the $25/month dues increase, but not enough to make a difference.
On the revenue side, maybe Roger will chime in on the $150K -- is that gross or net, and as others have asked, how would projected incremental increases in cart usage, at different levels, as a result of building the expense into dues affect (1) the bottom line "profit" to the club and (2) the attractiveness of the club to its members, which would ultimately have an impact on the health of the club as a whole?
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Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion. Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money. Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy. I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.
I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory. Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge. The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.” We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes). Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member. Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.
Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.
I cannot understand why noone has tried this out. I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user). It’s something to think about! ;D
They bring in $150K, but that's gross…
What is the annual cost of cart replacement/depreciation, cart path installation/repair, cart barn, cart maintenance, cart power (electricity/gas), cart staff, turf repair, etc., etc.?
I'm betting that it's not as big a number as some people think. But who is going to pay for the study that proves carts aren't really a huge economic boon for golf courses, Club Car? The USGA? GCSAA?
I don't think it's coming any time soon.
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Ken
I think you are correct. A significant percentage of cart support costs are buried in build, labour and utilities costings. Its a very odd thing for clubs (essentially non-profit entities) to see carts as REVENUE sources yet not carry on the full the business costings.
To my way of thinking, the American model of this, that and the other depending on where the sun in the sky is or if there is a stranger standing around wearing a bib, is just far too complicated. If a caddie program is great it will survive carts and trollies. If folks want to ride, fine, let them and charge them for what is bound to be a very expensive service. In my club it would be full whack guesstimate like utilities do with an adjustment at the end of the year. No way would I make the entire membership take a bath because folks want to ride. If folks want to go on the cheap by walking with a trolley or with a bag over the shoulder, fine, let them.
So far as the status thing goes, jeepers, talk about shallow. If that was used my opinion of the those holding that view would drop significantly. Its probably the same guys who want to set stringent dress codes which happens to suit their sensibilities.
No, its much easier to live and let live. The less rules where leisure is concerned, the better.
Ciao
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While many find them offensive, stereotypes are often true. Scots are cheap and people don't pay $25 for a cart because they would rather spend their money on something else. ie: At a very minimum 40% of walkers who carry their own bags do so because they are too cheap to pay for a caddie or cart. It is not a coincidence that these are the same people who put their shoes on in the parking lot, take water from the course instead of the club house and avoid the bag boys at all costs. We all know who the cheap guys are at the club and most are the same ones who massage the rules to walk and carry.
Allowing buggies will unfortunately allow people like me, the fat and cheap, an opportunity to avoid carts and caddies themselves. note: I own two push carts and can't wait for the day to put them to use. It is just another selfish dream of a fat irishman.
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John
Next time I send a GCA.com Member a bottle of Single Malt it will be an imported bottle of questionable parentage rather than one from the 'Sixteen Men of Tain' (Glenmorangie for those over the pond or south of the boarder) in keeping with your stereotypes that the 'Scots are cheap'. Cheap is not right, we are just careful with our money but never cheap, after all we love the good things in life i.e. traditional whisky, golf, walking and our women are certainly not cheap. ;D
Melvyn
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While many find them offensive, stereotypes are often true. Scots are cheap and people don't pay $25 for a cart because they would rather spend their money on something else. ie: At a very minimum 40% of walkers who carry their own bags do so because they are too cheap to pay for a caddie or cart. It is not a coincidence that these are the same people who put their shoes on in the parking lot, take water from the course instead of the club house and avoid the bag boys at all costs. We all know who the cheap guys are at the club and most are the same ones who massage the rules to walk and carry.
Allowing buggies will unfortunately allow people like me, the fat and cheap, an opportunity to avoid carts and caddies themselves. note: I own two push carts and can't wait for the day to put them to use. It is just another selfish dream of a fat irishman.
Thanks for helping me understand why I feel so much kinship with the folks in the UK. To this day, my son reminds me of the abuse I subjected him to while growing up by refusing to allow him to ride during the hot summer days in Texas when he played with me (I carried). He too thinks I am cheap as I am sure the majority of the members of our club thought as well. Curiously, he has a hard time reconciling how I typically walk when I can, even if there is no additional cost for riding.
But you're right, cost is a factor for most of us if only in the context of value. There are a bunch of things I wouldn't want even if they were free. The true test at a private course would be to price riding carts and trolleys at their true cost and see the usage over the long run. I suspect that at most places in the U.S., walking and trolleys would make up a very small percentage of the rounds.
I find it amusing that many here seem to think that golf course operators don't have a clue regarding the management and operation of their facilities. The profit margin of the cart fleet at many courses is huge, even after capitalizing the cost of the building, cart paths, and the fleet (when not leased), and including all normal operating costs (incl. damage to course). Even at not-for-profit private clubs, cart usage subsidizes all sorts of amenities which can't generate revenues to cover their costs. Golfers in great numbers, whether we like it or not, are willing to shell out to ride. In many cases, raise their dues somewhat to cover other "private club essentials" and they'll run to another club dying to add new members at reduced rates to help cover fixed costs. Or, as many private clubs are facing, a raise in dues cause members to start thinking in terms of "cost per round" and when they look at that astronomical number, the relationships don't look so valuable and the CCFAD nearby with a pretty good course and a la carte pricing gets the nod.
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Sweet Lou
My frugal sensibilities can't compute spending "extra" cash on top of considerable expense to play a game. JakaB calls it cheap, I call it prioritizing limited resources.
Ciao
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First off I apologize to Dave Givnish for continuing to hijack his thread... but it's too good a topic to turn down. Carl Johnson and Lou Duran make excellent points. Everyone does! I will try to clear up some of the questions. It’s a mystery wrapped in an enigma, but let’s get down to the facts.
1. Carts are a “must” at all but the most exclusive clubs and resorts. We would not exist without them. We would have to charge very high monthly dues (for the loss of 50% of our membership) and eliminate our old and/or infirm members from playing golf.
2. Because of #1, a “cart barn” is a necessity, so I eliminate the amortization and maintenance of that building in my calculations.
3. I do not take “wear and tear” of the course into consideration. With proper routing and member education, the cart traffic is not a problem. Note that we have indestuctible bermudagrass fairways. I know for a fact that fescue cannot take traffic. I am sure bentgrass suffers from greater cart impact as well.
4. A much bigger problem are the divots. Again this is a bermudagrass issue and might differ with bent and fescue. We fill our divots with sand. We don’t replace them. I don’t think it’s fair to ask a walker to lug a sand bottle when carrying his bag. We like push carts because most come with a sand bottle attachment. So I take “wear and tear” on the course out of the equation.
5. We lease our fleet and with our current usage, 90% of our carts we turn in are still in excellent condition. I don’t think the marginal usage increase from not charging a cart fee would make a material difference in maintenance costs.
Here is what we pay every year for our cart fleet of 72 state of the art Club Cars with rain covers, coolers and sand bottles:
Lease cost: 4 year operating lease with a 4 year battery warranty. $56,000 per year
Maintenance contract: $5,000 per year (batteries, cables, etc….)
Cart / bag attendants (estimate 1 per day marginal cart vs no cart): add $25,000 per year
Pro shop attendants (deduct 1 per day marginal cart vs no cart): subtract $25,000 per year
Electricity: 42,000 per year for my entire facility (clubhouse, cart barn, maintenance, pumphouse, fans). To be conservative, let’s assume $10,000 of that is to charge carts.
The total annual expense for a 72 cart fleet is $71,000 at the most. We have 500 members, an average age of 45, are open all year round, and do about 18,000 rounds per year. 10,000 of those rounds are riding.
If our annual cart revenue was $400,000, this conversation wouldn’t be worth having. Since it’s only $150,000 and I don't think $25 a month is going to cause anyone to resign from a club they paid $22,000 to join, it’s something I dwell over every year I write the budget.
Eliminate the revenue issues surrounding cart policies and usage!
Then we can all go out and just play golf!
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John
Next time I send a GCA.com Member a bottle of Single Malt it will be an imported bottle of questionable parentage rather than one from the 'Sixteen Men of Tain' (Glenmorangie for those over the pond or south of the boarder) in keeping with your stereotypes that the 'Scots are cheap'. Cheap is not right, we are just careful with our money but never cheap, after all we love the good things in life i.e. traditional whisky, golf, walking and our women are certainly not cheap. ;D
Melvyn
As the recipient of the Glenmorangie largess, I can testify that MHM is a terrific guy. I just wish he would come visit us at a Buda Cup some time. ???
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Roger - as long as we're not on a plane, hijack away!
We're looking at whether to (a) wrap unlimited cart use in the dues, (b) go to a cost-plus pricing model for carts, (c) allow members to buy blocks of cart rounds at a 20% or 25% discount, or (d) keep them where they are because our fee is already 20% lower than other clubs in our area.
Cart revenue is a profit center. We own the cart revenue so it's really just disguised dues that punish regular players. I think that we'll end up trying option C this year to see how it works.
About 20% to 25% of our rounds are walkers carrying their own bags, 5% to 10% are using trollies or 4-bag attachments on a cart, and the remainder are riding.
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Roger - as long as we're not on a plane, hijack away!
We're looking at whether to (a) wrap unlimited cart use in the dues, (b) go to a cost-plus pricing model for carts, (c) allow members to buy blocks of cart rounds at a 20% or 25% discount, or (d) keep them where they are because our fee is already 20% lower than other clubs in our area.
Cart revenue is a profit center. We own the cart revenue so it's really just disguised dues that punish regular players. I think that we'll end up trying option C this year to see how it works.
About 20% to 25% of our rounds are walkers carrying their own bags, 5% to 10% are using trollies or 4-bag attachments on a cart, and the remainder are riding.
Hey Dave,
There really isn’t a “correct” answer to your question. Every member I informally poll about the “free cart fee” solution loves it. But remember, every member I poll is ON CLUB PREMISES. As we all know, 25% or more of every club’s membership uses the facility one a month at most. He or she is not going to like a higher monthly fee and prefers to pay as they go. Especially if they are avid walkers.
I wrote these comments on a thread back in January of 2010. While the “all in” price is a wonderful thing… it also has the capability of dooming your club if something goes wrong (like the 2008 recession).
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I couldn't agree with you more Kevin. As a GM/controller my goal is to make each year as predictable as possible and the less I have to depend on cart revenue and guest fees the greater chance I have of getting my net income to zero. With that in mind, there is nothing that hurts a club more than finding ways to upcharge the members who use the facilities the most. Food service charges... high cart fees... high guest fees... range fees. Their should be a "cost of being a member" and the more static that is... the better.
Hidden charges are another pet peeve. Our dues are all inclusive except for a small food minimum. We have a club near us that advertises their dues as $465. Add a $50 capital fee, $30 dining service fee, $200 quarterly food minimum and a $300 per year range fee and your monthly "cash out of pocket" just became $640.. 37% higher than the "published dues." Why a club would choose to penalize its most supportive members is beyond me.
An important point, however, is to guage just how many members of your club are "light users." If 25% of your membership averages 12 rounds per year... perhaps some level of "pay as you go" is appropriate so you don't drive those people out with a dues structure that includes the traditional "pay as you go" charges. If the regular membership lost the subsidizing dues revenue of light users who leave the club... the resulting dues structure might be to high... thus beginning the "death spiral" mentioned by Mr. Mucci in an earlier post.
As I have often quoted Winston Churchill to various owners and boards... "...[finding the right mix] is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."
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And the all important “death spiral” example…
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I apologize if this remedial to some… but I have used it several times to illustrate the “death spiral” scenario.
This is dumbed down (no F&B)…
Club needs $3,000,000 to break even. $350,000 come from “usage fees:”
Cart fees are $220,000
Range fees generate $100,000
Spousal/dependent fees generate $30,000
500 members pay $2,650,000 in dues so $5,300 per year… $442 per month.
Everyone is pretty happy.
A rogue GM takes over and convinces the board to roll the cart fees and range fees into the dues and make all memberships “family” thus eliminating spousal and dependent fees. The board and the annual meeting attendees... usually heavy users of the club... carry the GM out of the annual meeting on their shoulders and the board gives him a $50,000 bonus.
500 members now pay $3,000,000 so $6,000 per year… $500 per month. All is well.
In September of 2008, Lehman Brothers tanks and begins the great depression of 08-09.
Suddenly, out of the 500 members, 50 members whose families do not play, who do not
subscribe to the range and only play 12 times per year (definition of a light user) decide
that the dues increase of $58 is just too much so they resign from the club.
Now 450 members have to pay $3,000,000 so $6,667 per year… $556 per month.
This additional $56 (on top of the original $58) forces 50 MORE to resign.
Now 400 members have to pay $3,000,000 so $7,500 per year… $625 per month.
You are only losing members who do not play very much so your volume, wear and tear and expenses remain the same. If anything, you would have to recover MORE revenue through the dues since you are losing some F&B and guest revenue as well.
Behold the “Death Spiral”
Is it better to continue to tax the regular user with cart fees and range fees in order to protect the dues structure and hopefully keep the light users we depend on soooo much from leaving the club? There are two answers that depend on the economic environment the club is currently in…
1. In a boom economy when the club has a waiting list and you can replace the 50 who leave when the dues hit $500 per month… it sounds like a great plan, doesn’t it?
2. In a bad economy when the club has no waiting list and cannot replace the 50 who leave… should you take every possible step to keep your dues as low as possible?
As far as I know, noone has come up with the definite "formula for success."
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this is a great thread. Was wondering on any private US courses allowing them in the last 2-3 years?
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BCowan -
Last year the Olympic Club approved usage of 3-wheel push carts on its Ocean Course.
Within the last 3-4 years, Lake Merced CC, the California GC, the Sonoma GC and the Monterey Peninsula CC have all approved usage of 3-wheel push carts.
DT
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:)
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We've been friends of push carts since we opened. We even "rent" them for a couple of bucks to guests if they'd like one. And members can store their push cart at the club for a nominal fee.
I don't understand why every club doesn't allow them. They're MUCH better for the golf course.
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The guys at Wilshire CC are great contacts on this .....Pete Kelly (Member) & Randy St John (GM) are both on the DG.
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Asheville CC
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/163/6do8.jpg)
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I have to admit that I'm not a pushcart/trolley fan myself. It's not that I oppose them; in fact, I agree that courses should allow them in the interest of promoting walking. I totally see why folks might want to use one if they prefer to walk but don't want to carry or pay for a caddy. I also don't understand the stigma against them here in the USA. So if someone wants to use one, I say go for it. But I'm not about to use one myself. I'd prefer to carry anyday over using a trolley. If I were to use one, I'd be inclined to use one of the electric trolleys that follows you around.
But my question is, if you do use a trolley, why push around a staff bag like the guy in Ben's picture from Asheville? Why not push around a walking bag?
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Brian
those are carTek trolleys, they have lithium batteries and self propelled. I Carry myself, but when I am 70 i might switch to one of these. They have cooler models than these. You can't even hear them, my mom has one.
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I would push myself when I get older. Also, I intend to use the rickshaws at Bandon when I eventually go because I'd rather not haul around rain gear and other stuff on my back.
My club allows them on days that carts are a no go. But the club also allows unlimited walking and carrying. So I say let them push if they want. Or, if revenue is a concern, why would a club not buy some pushcarts and rent them to members?
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Me too, i plan on carrying till I die, but if push comes to shove. The one above breaks down into briefcase size and is light (model my mom has). Don't know what a rickshaws is. Can't afford Bandon either, but the photos look great. The course I grew up at and the one i play now at you can bring your trolley or they rent them out. Only one private club in Toledo allows trolleys and 4 clubs or most clubs do allow in Ann Arbor.
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I think Bandon offers something like this:
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My club has the cart fee included. Our dues went up $40/mo. No big deal I guess, but to be fair I think they should also now provide motorized walking carts, push carts, and also adaptable 4 bag carts. At the very least store the members push carts. Forcing carts really promotes obesity!!
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I have to admit that I'm not a pushcart/trolley fan myself. It's not that I oppose them; in fact, I agree that courses should allow them in the interest of promoting walking. I totally see why folks might want to use one if they prefer to walk but don't want to carry or pay for a caddy. I also don't understand the stigma against them here in the USA. So if someone wants to use one, I say go for it. But I'm not about to use one myself. I'd prefer to carry anyday over using a trolley. If I were to use one, I'd be inclined to use one of the electric trolleys that follows you around.
But my question is, if you do use a trolley, why push around a staff bag like the guy in Ben's picture from Asheville? Why not push around a walking bag?
Brian
I use a titleist stand bag in summer when using a trolley and then switch to a larger bag in winter as required to cater for wet weather gear, spare towel etc, that maybe a reason for larger bags in the photo?
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But my question is, if you do use a trolley, why push around a staff bag like the guy in Ben's picture from Asheville? Why not push around a walking bag?
I love it when guys drive Cadillacs on the course. The bags are so big I can often dump my rain gear in them. Though, truth be told, I have always wanted to tip out all the stuff the big bag boys carry on the trolley. I bet most guys have 5 extra pounds in the bag they never use or don't realize is in there. Imagine the old sandwiches, manky choc bars and bottles of dubious coloured water that are buried in the bowels of these bags. Truth be told ii, guys carry big trolley bags because they can.
Ciao
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Cool thing about Bandon is that you can take the push cart right across the greens.
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My club has the cart fee included. Our dues went up $40/mo. No big deal I guess, but to be fair I think they should also now provide motorized walking carts, push carts, and also adaptable 4 bag carts. At the very least store the members push carts. Forcing carts really promotes obesity!!
I think that is awful, forced coercion. If a members wants any type of cart they pay for it, if they want a season pass cart buy it at the beginning of the year. This raising dues $40 a month is BS. Collective line of thinking. They talked a while back about having ''trail fees'' at the club i grew up at, I guess they wanted to see 100 people quit asap. The unintended consequences of focusing on revenue and not expenses can often lead to less revenue. A member should be allowed to bring his own trolley.
Dan
That is cool, just like in OZ i hear!
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Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club - in the UK if you ask for permission or approval to do something some bloody committee will almost undoubtedly find a reason to say 'no'. Now I'm not a particular fan of Nike equipment but their "Just do it" advert would be an approach worth following, especially these days when clubs want members, or rather, want members money.
atb
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Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club - in the UK if you ask for permission or approval to do something some bloody committee will almost undoubtedly find a reason to say 'no'. Now I'm not a particular fan of Nike equipment but their "Just do it" advert would be an approach worth following, especially these days when clubs want members, or rather, want members money.
atb
Thomas i think you are right for the most part. With so many Americans not knowing how golf is played in it's proper form across the pond, Civil disobedience might be the only alternative. I think it should be a last resort. An example would be the private club i grew up at, the few woman members that played on Sat morning couldn't go get service in C-house at 10am and weren't allowed in the Men's back Bar, so they just starting going in and getting snacks and drinks at the turn. I much prefer this method than getting case law lawyers and gov't involved. On the other hand the course allows 5 somes now and I have refused for 8 years to play the club i grew up at for that reason alone.
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Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club - in the UK if you ask for permission or approval to do something some bloody committee will almost undoubtedly find a reason to say 'no'. Now I'm not a particular fan of Nike equipment but their "Just do it" advert would be an approach worth following, especially these days when clubs want members, or rather, want members money.
atb
On the other hand the course allows 5 somes now and I have refused for 8 years to play the club i grew up at for that reason alone.
You showed them huh? ::)
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I think you know what I am implying wise guy! Your 2nd photo is my reaction too. You waited all day to chime in?
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Not all of us are small business owners who set our own schedules Ben. I had to work. I also couldn't quite get through when I first clicked on it. Reading these stories of tyranny and oppression about selfish course operations that allow fivesomes and forcibly coerce players to ride in carts is really difficult and emotional. The Thomas Aquinas meme was just a stupid joke. I'm sure he's smiling down on you. Are you Catholic? I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move. I have a late uncle who was a priest and a great aunt who's a nun, and I'm a big fan of the work of Aquinas and All Saints. "Never Ever" was a great song.
Have you thought about the $40 monthly cart charge to all members as a possible way to grow walking golf? In my experience, John Kavanaugh is right - walkers are cheap and often perceived thusly by riders. I say that as an avid walker myself who is also deplorably cheap. Like John, I have Irish blood. If a club charges all members a monthly fee for unlimited cart use, and many members continue to walk, doesn't that legitimize walking as a way to enjoy the game instead of just a way to save a few bucks? It also removes the stigma that walkers are freeloaders who don't pay their full share to the club and whose memberships are subsidized by more free-spending members.
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Not all of us are small business owners who set our own schedules Ben. I had to work. I also couldn't quite get through when I first clicked on it. Reading these stories of tyranny and oppression about selfish course operations that allow fivesomes and forcibly coerce players to ride in carts is really difficult and emotional.Clubs that are set up a limited play allow 5+ somes for they are limited play clubs and totally different than traditional golf clubs and CC's. Don't get emotion Jason, that doesn't help anyone! Maybe if you could have a different outlook you could see a differently.
The Thomas Aquinas meme was just a stupid joke. I'm sure he's smiling down on you. Are you Catholic? Nope
I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move.Not surprised you but down southerns.
I have a late uncle who was a priest and a great aunt who's a nun, and I'm a big fan of the work of Aquinas and All Saints. "Never Ever" was a great song. Have you thought about the $40 monthly cart charge to all members as a possible way to grow walking golf?Yeah, I have seen clubs go to that and go out of business. Does making people do this because ''some'' people think it is right, make it right? In my experience, John Kavanaugh is right - walkers are cheap and often perceived thusly by riders.You taking Kava side is funny. Nope i don't perceive walkers as cheap and my definition of cheap is different then yoursI say that as an avid walker myself who is also deplorably cheap.Again your and my definition of cheap is different. Maybe we could use the term Val.Like John, I have Irish blood. If a club charges all members a monthly fee for unlimited cart use, and many members continue to walk, doesn't that legitimize walking as a way to enjoy the game instead of just a way to save a few bucks? Depending on the course whether we are talking about a CC or a Golf Club. Also there are many depending on the region that wouldn't put up for that nonsense even ones with real deep pockets
It also removes the stigma that walkers are freeloaders who don't pay their full share to the club and whose memberships are subsidized by more free-spending members.Again, like John and other CC's that can't figure it out, it isn't revenue that is the only issue, it is spending. Did it occur to you that $40 could be the straw that breaks the camels back and also prevents people from joining a private club? John says that most walkers jump on a cart up a hill, does that happen time to time, yes. You use words like ''fair share'', not surprised you used that! I am a free spending member, and each member values certain things more than others. I spend money on expensive craft beer and eat out a lot! John and you look at this like typical CC golfers do, I laugh when he gets upset at maint costs! If a club is having a hard time breaking even, do you think making private golf affordable is more important than how much a new member spends? Back in the day many head pros gave lessons morning till night and then managed the grill! Do you realize there are certain clubs that promote walking and actually have to be 60+ years old to take a cart? The club i grew up with had a food min. for two years, they got rid of it people still eat there. They are in the best financial state than all the other clubs in the area. The club i play at now has a waiting list. So I think your ''subsidizing'' stigma is what is wrong with Golf in the US. ''It costs 10 times more to play golf in the US and most courses are in the red, have we not learned anything from where the game originated''-Perry Maxwell shortened quote. Wow the foresight!
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Not all of us are small business owners who set our own schedules Ben. I had to work. I also couldn't quite get through when I first clicked on it. Reading these stories of tyranny and oppression about selfish course operations that allow fivesomes and forcibly coerce players to ride in carts is really difficult and emotional. The Thomas Aquinas meme was just a stupid joke. I'm sure he's smiling down on you. Are you Catholic? I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move. I have a late uncle who was a priest and a great aunt who's a nun, and I'm a big fan of the work of Aquinas and All Saints. "Never Ever" was a great song.
Have you thought about the $40 monthly cart charge to all members as a possible way to grow walking golf? In my experience, John Kavanaugh is right - walkers are cheap and often perceived thusly by riders. I say that as an avid walker myself who is also deplorably cheap. Like John, I have Irish blood. If a club charges all members a monthly fee for unlimited cart use, and many members continue to walk, doesn't that legitimize walking as a way to enjoy the game instead of just a way to save a few bucks? It also removes the stigma that walkers are freeloaders who don't pay their full share to the club and whose memberships are subsidized by more free-spending members.
The club that is bumping the monthly fee obviously needs increased cash flow but has instituted a plan whereby there is "value added" in that the member can ride any time he chooses. Anyone that believes that cart usage won't increase based on this model is living in a fantasy world. "I usually walk but it's pretty hot today, I usually walk but I just had a Denny's Grand Slam breakfast, I usually walk but I have to cut my lawn later" ad infinitum. If you have always walked and continue to do so even after the new policy is put in place and you feel that some perceived stigma is removed than that is a sad commentary. If you are a supporter and enjoy the club then this has to be more palatable than a "trail fee" or just a flat dues increase no?
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Clubs that are set up a limited play allow 5+ somes for they are limited play clubs and totally different than traditional golf clubs and CC's. Don't get emotion Jason, that doesn't help anyone! Maybe if you could have a different outlook you could see a differently.
Thanks. I try not to. It's just the oppression that gets me. When I think about all the middle and upper class Americans suffering in carts or paying a caddie instead of using their push trolley, it just makes me sick to my stomach. What would Thomas Jefferson say?
I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move.Not surprised you but down southerns.
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i don't perceive walkers as cheap and my definition of cheap is different then yours
It sounds like we also have different definitions of self-awareness. Cheap is as cheap does.
that $40 could be the straw that breaks the camels back and also prevents people from joining a private club?
The subprime mortgage crisis taught me that anything that encourages people to spend within their means and live more responsibly is probably a good thing. Sometimes that means allowing the market to keep things unaffordable. Anything else is socialism. I see you choose red font for your replies, and I know you don't believe in the free market, but I'm a big fan of individual freedom including the freedom of businesses to set prices as appropriate. No one should join a golf club if it stretches them within $40 of breaking their monthly budget.
You use words like ''fair share'', not surprised you used that!
Regardless of the accuracy of the quote you've attributed here, do you not see a difference between asking a 10% of the population that already pays 90% of the nation's taxes to pay even more and asking a group that pays a small percentage of the revenue at their golf club to contribute an equal amount to other members who use the same club? If you can't, then it's appropriate that your club is a muni. Your lack of contextual understanding here is shocking. You're using Hannity Buzzwords like Fair Share! while clamoring for the 1%-ers to keep funding your subsidized membership. You're the first Tea Party Conservative ever to join the Occupy movement. This is historic.
Back in the day many head pros gave lessons morning till night and then managed the grill!
That sounds unsanitary.
They are in the best financial state than all the other clubs in the area. The club i play at now has a waiting list. So I think your ''subsidizing'' stigma is what is wrong with Golf in the US.
I'm sure your club is in a wonderful financial state, seeing as how your dues are subsidized by the dues of cart-buyers who contribute more capital than is their fair share, and their dues are in turn subsidized by a university that is in turn subsidized by taxpayers.
''It costs 10 times more to play golf in the US and most courses are in the red, have we not learned anything from where the game originated''-Perry Maxwell shortened quote. Wow the foresight!
I think you're giving too much credit to Maxwell. No one born in Kentucky is very smart. Didn't he do a semester at the University of Kentucky too? Trust me, no one who attended that university should ever be taken seriously.
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Clubs that are set up a limited play allow 5+ somes for they are limited play clubs and totally different than traditional golf clubs and CC's. Don't get emotion Jason, that doesn't help anyone! Maybe if you could have a different outlook you could see a differently.
Thanks. I try not to. It's just the oppression that gets me. When I think about all the middle and upper class Americans suffering in carts or paying a caddie instead of using their push trolley, it just makes me sick to my stomach. What would Thomas Jefferson say?
Your stretching of oppression is priceless, you are good at spinning things. Jefferson would think little of you.
I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move.Not surprised you but down southerns.
'''put'', typical elitist mindset
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i don't perceive walkers as cheap and my definition of cheap is different then yours
It sounds like we also have different definitions of self-awareness. Cheap is as cheap does.Cheap is when you take a caddie and don't tip them well, when you can't afford a caddie all the time when you play golf that is living within your means!
that $40 could be the straw that breaks the camels back and also prevents people from joining a private club?
The subprime mortgage crisis taught me that anything that encourages people to spend within their means and live more responsibly is probably a good thing. Sometimes that means allowing the market to keep things unaffordable. Anything else is socialism. I see you choose red font for your replies, and I know you don't believe in the free market, but I'm a big fan of individual freedom including the freedom of businesses to set prices as appropriate. No one should join a golf club if it stretches them within $40 of breaking their monthly budget.You obviously don't know the whole story with the 08' collapse. The market was propped up for houses and artificially increased their values with cheap artificial interest rates! The market keeps prices down, you have no clue what you are talking about in regards to markets! I am a huge fan of freedom and free markets. I never advocated a that a club can't set their prices, just don't yell ''economy'' if members leave or you don't attract new ones! Oh, how smug of you to think $40 a month is no big deal to subsidize a service that members don't want to use!
You use words like ''fair share'', not surprised you used that!
Regardless of the accuracy of the quote you've attributed here, do you not see a difference between asking a 10% of the population that already pays 90% of the nation's taxes to pay even more and asking a group that pays a small percentage of the revenue at their golf club to contribute an equal amount to other members who use the same club? If you can't, then it's appropriate that your club is a muni. Your lack of contextual understanding here is shocking. You're using Hannity Buzzwords like Fair Share! while clamoring for the 1%-ers to keep funding your subsidized membership. You're the first Tea Party Conservative ever to join the Occupy movement. This is historic.Again it isn't a revenue problem, most private clubs have a spending problem. Don't you ever call my club a muni you little punk! Your lack of critical thinking is the problem, you have your head so far up your butt and impressed with what you think you know! You call people spending $5k a year on dues cheap and non important because they don't spend another $2,000 on carts, that is how dumb you are!
Back in the day many head pros gave lessons morning till night and then managed the grill!
That sounds unsanitary.
Yes, the pro that taught me was an asst under Byron Nelson, they worked their butt off, you couldn't comprehend that way of life! Your words are unsanitary.
They are in the best financial state than all the other clubs in the area. The club i play at now has a waiting list. So I think your ''subsidizing'' stigma is what is wrong with Golf in the US.
I'm sure your club is in a wonderful financial state, seeing as how your dues are subsidized by the dues of cart-buyers who contribute more capital than is their fair share, and their dues are in turn subsidized by a university that is in turn subsidized by taxpayers.
With over 60% of the members walking i find it funny that you think 40% that take carts subsidize the majority, but you do lack common sense. How did private clubs survive prior to golf carts Jason, that is what you need to figure out? No, the course i play at gives money back to the University! The head pro makes all his money teaching ''lessons''! They also don't lose money trying to host weddings and have a staff to handle all those needs, it is a golf club!
''It costs 10 times more to play golf in the US and most courses are in the red, have we not learned anything from where the game originated''-Perry Maxwell shortened quote. Wow the foresight!
I think you're giving too much credit to Maxwell. No one born in Kentucky is very smart. Didn't he do a semester at the University of Kentucky too? Trust me, no one who attended that university should ever be taken seriously.Wow, you are smarter than Perry Maxwell, good job. Did Donald Ross have a degree in LARCH? Typical response from someone who lacks common sense and critical thinking skills!
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You can add the following clubs from upstate NY that allow push carts:
Oak Hill CC
The Country Club of Rochester
Monroe Golf Club
Crag Burn Club
The only club I can think of that DOESN'T allow them up here is the CC of Buffalo which has a caddie program.
Ekwanok CC in Vermont allows them late afternoon.
I can't imagine a club not allowing them because it doesn't "fit an image." And people wonder why private clubs are struggling and the game is still perceived by many as a stuffy sport.
You make too much sense, and thanks for providing those courses. By some people's standards on here, they would classify those courses as muni's, lol!
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I own two trolleys and every course where I am a member allows their use. It's no big deal.
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If the course is a walking course it is to some extent. You have good taste. There are a lot of clubs that don't allow them, and if you are in financial trouble limiting potential members isn't a smart idea. It is not the most important factor, but depending on region it helps.
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A club I was previously a member at had unlimited free carts as part of the dues. I still walked a good bit, but it was nice to sometimes walk nine and grab a cart for the back nine in order to finish.
I was probably in the minority. Outside of a smallish subset of members who walked on a regular basis, pretty much everybody rode.
It did impact the condition of the golf course. What would normally be medium traffic areas started to look like higher traffic areas. Higher traffic areas didn't always look good. While people should know better (and people on this site do), many, many golfers drive carts like idiots.
I'm currently a member at a club that allows pushcarts and has a rental pushcart fleet.
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The one factor that has not been considered is a club's desire to encourage an active caddy program. Like many clubs in the greater Chicago area, we are ardent supporters of the Evans Scholar program. We also have our own Foundation to help employees and/or their children obtain a higher education. If walking without caddies is an alternative (when caddies are available), we are concerned that it may lead to the eventual demise of the program. Therefore, we have made a group decision to favor the caddy program by greatly reducing the availability of walking carts. I would limit the use of riding carts but I can't win that one. Nonetheless, we provide gainful employment for area youth (and some adults), create goodwill in our community and introduce young people to the game. We think that its worth the limitation on the use of trolleys and the extra cost.
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The one factor that has not been considered is a club's desire to encourage an active caddy program.Mr. Solow I have caddied at 3 of 5 clubs that have produced Evan's Scholars. The Gentleman who taught me the game was honored at the OSU Evans lawn. My Father caddied for my mother and that is how my parents met so I know a little about caddie programs.Like many clubs in the greater Chicago area, we are ardent supporters of the Evans Scholar program. Almost all the Toledo,OH clubs support and produce Evan Scholars (I still play golf and keep in contact with my first caddie master)We also have our own Foundation to help employees and/or their children obtain a higher education. That is great and should be encouraged. I have talked to Head pros that collect substantial money for caddie scholarships outside of Evans too.
If walking without caddies is an alternative (when caddies are available), we are concerned that it may lead to the eventual demise of the program. Barton Hills a very elite course in Ann Arbor has caddies and allows trollies. Don't know about exact rules though. I have this conversation with my caddie master from 22 years ago for course across the pond have caddies and allow trollies. People who can afford caddies are going to take them. There is some people that either when they retire (people i used to caddie for) that can't afford caddies for they play 70-100 times a year without income coming in. I have caddied at course that you must take a caddie if you are under 60 years old. When I was a caddie, a person walking or carrying wasn't my meal ticket, it was the one that took a golf cart. I would rather that person at 60+ take a trolley then take a cart to save money. Caddies are expensive, i know I was one.Therefore, we have made a group decision to favor the caddy program by greatly reducing the availability of walking carts. Totally disagree with you, for I know the private Chi-town market is totally different. There are bad caddies and I would rather them replaced by trolleys than Golf carts! I would limit the use of riding carts but I can't win that one. Maybe allowing trolleys for 60+ year olds that are retired and no income would be great. I know elite clubs loath the look of trolleys.Nonetheless, we provide gainful employment for area youth (and some adults), create goodwill in our community and introduce young people to the game. We think that its worth the limitation on the use of trolleys and the extra cost.People using golf carts are much worse for the game of golf. I just played golf this past summer with a friend from my high school golf team and a past even's scholar and I have many friend who are scholars or have learned golf through caddying. 90% of people are still going to take caddies, there maybe some that can't afford 50-100 rounds a year with a caddie, less likely in Chi-town. It comes down to people in the US not liking the look of trolleys, hangups.
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Ben; I appreciate your point of view but disagree. as for those across the pond, the professional caddy, or even the member caddy is the rule. Not really a high school summer job. as for the impact on caddies, our experience throughout the CDGA more closely comports with my view than with yours. I agree that some clubs just don't like the "look" but that is no longer the prevailing motivation.
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SL
I just found out from a friend who is a member of a top club that I used to caddie at. They are now going from a youth development program to ''Professional'' caddies. Due to kids growing up with too much these days, parents don't encourage them to work and local caddie programs have gone down hill and some clubs have gone to professional caddies. A good ''case study'' would be for Medina to allow trolley's and or caddies for under the age of 60. I would bet that 98% would take a caddie due to having enough discretionary income and for the fear of being labeled ''cheap''. The Evans program in Ohio and Michigan is very very strong and is not going away. Lower tier clubs would have caddies on call (that would get Evans) and trolleys. My mistake for using across the pond. Barton Hills produces evans scholars annually.
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The one factor that has not been considered is a club's desire to encourage an active caddy program. Like many clubs in the greater Chicago area, we are ardent supporters of the Evans Scholar program. We also have our own Foundation to help employees and/or their children obtain a higher education. If walking without caddies is an alternative (when caddies are available), we are concerned that it may lead to the eventual demise of the program. Therefore, we have made a group decision to favor the caddy program by greatly reducing the availability of walking carts. I would limit the use of riding carts but I can't win that one. Nonetheless, we provide gainful employment for area youth (and some adults), create goodwill in our community and introduce young people to the game. We think that its worth the limitation on the use of trolleys and the extra cost.
SL
I always wondered if clubs that heavily support Evans Scholars can in some way become charities themselves. Or at least a charity within the club. I think its a totally different ball game for a club to encourage (demand?) caddies because of an over-riding cause ratehr than solely to have a caddie program. I have no idea how it all would work, but it does strike me that promoting Evans Scholars is a very positive movement which deserves ssome sort of protection to allow the program to continue to thrive. Charity has always been the back bone of American largesse and long may it continue.
Ciao
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The only clubs I've seen that have really active caddie programs in this country are those that require caddies. Otherwise you get a situation where one has to arrange for caddies in advance, a la Shel's extensive experience. If a guy spending 20 grand a year at his club is sweating the 3 grand he spends on caddies he probably shouldn't be a member. If a caddie isn't readily available one should be able to carry or use a pushcart. Kids should be able to carry afternoons. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Where is the modestly priced club with a full-time stocked caddie shack which Joe the Butcher can no longer afford because of the price of his pro jock?
P.S. many clubs have reduced dues for seniors.
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''Where is the modestly priced club with a full-time stocked caddie shack which Joe the Butcher can no longer afford because of the price of his pro jock?''
I agree with many of your points. Modestly priced clubs with caddie programs are not going to be found in Chicago or New York. More caddie on call programs are probably going to be the future vs sitting in the caddie yard. I have experienced 2 strong caddie programs in the Toledo area one that did not demand a member take a caddie and one that did. It really comes down the club, their customs, and leadership.
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Jud; thanks for the comments. Clearly we are on the same page. Sean; the Evans Scholar Foundation is already qualified as a charity. It raises money for its scholarships through annual contributions (dues) from individuals. They appoint directors at clubs who have 2 main jobs. First, they make sure all of the club members make their annual contribution. At our club, and many others, the contribution is automatic unless a member opts out. There are very few opt outs. The second job is to recruit suitable candidates from the caddie ranks. The quality of the applicants is truly outstanding.
Given that the Evans Foundation is already a charity, and given the other activities that take place at a club, it would be nigh impossible to obtain charitable status for a club. Additionally, the money paid to the caddy, even if part of the motivation is to support the program, is in exchange for a service.
Our club has dealt with this by setting up the Briarwood Schloarship Foundation. We fund scholarships for employees and their relatives if they qualify based on length of service, need and qualifications. While the stipends do not rival the full tuition, room and board offered by Evans, they are very useful. We fund it via contributions and through an annual Foundation Day tournament and dinner which is the best attended event of the year. Our members and trustees take the foundation and the grant process very seriously. I have tried to encourage other clubs to utilize this model with very limited success.
I agree that private charity is part of the backbone of this country. At least at our club, we have taken the view that those who are in a position to enjoy a club should give back. Otherwise, they may not be the type of members we want. This view also extends to the admission process. We think its the right way.
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I think the right approach is a market-based one. I don't want to be required to take a cart or a caddie (nor can I afford it, quite frankly). So the solution for me is to join a club that (a) I can afford and (b) allows me to choose whether to walk, use a cart or take a caddie. Simple. I suggest that if you feel strongly about issues such as trolleys, caddies, Evans Scholars, etc., you put your money where your mouth is and join a club that both meets your needs and is within your budget.
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SL - I haven't said this in a while, and I hope it doesn't embarrass you, but both on here and in PMs, you really do seem to embody and consistently demonstrate the very fine qualities I'm trying to learn how to embody and express myself. Your club and the people around you are fortunate to have you.
Best
Peter
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Ben; I appreciate your point of view but disagree. as for those across the pond, the professional caddy, or even the member caddy is the rule.
If 'by across the pond' you mean over here in the UK, I'd say what I've said before when caddy discussions have come up: there is NO caddy culture in British golf. Only at courses frequented in large numbers by high rolling tourists (basically the very top Scottish links) and a minuscule number of ultra high end courses around London - basically Queenwood, Wentworth and Sunningdale - are caddies even available without significant advance notice. 99 per cent of British golfers will never have taken a caddy in their lives.
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Jason,
As an aside, for full disclosure it does appear that Radrick Farms, which is now fully under the auspices of the University of Michigan athletic department, did turn a profit of $130k, at least in fiscal year 2012 (1.73mm revenue vs. 1.6mm expenses):
http://annarborchronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Athletics-FY2013-Budget-Presentation-6-21-final-v.2.pdf
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Jud
thank you
SL
We agree for the most part, i plan on doing HHH for Evens or Solich this year.
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I wonder if Mr. Solow, if he had the power to do so, would allow a simple secret ballot on this one question at his club AND live with the results?
Preface:
"Members of the various committees and boards of the club believe that the use of caddies is important for a variety of reasons including the support of the Evans Scholarship Program. We believe that without the use of caddies being mandatory, the club's support for the program will be greatly diminished, possibly leading to the demise of the program."
Question:
"Yes or no, should members and their guests be required to use and pay for a caddie when they play golf at the club?"
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BCowan -
Last year the Olympic Club approved usage of 3-wheel push carts on its Ocean Course.
Within the last 3-4 years, Lake Merced CC, the California GC, the Sonoma GC and the Monterey Peninsula CC have all approved usage of 3-wheel push carts.
DT
DT
Has the approval of trolleys at Olympic hurt the caddie program there? Do you have caddie scholarship programs in Cali? I want to steer this back to the title of the thread of courses allowing trolleys that used to not allow them.
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Lou, First, carts are allowed at our club. Caddies are not mandatory, notwithstanding my preference. Second we are very democratic, any and all issues are open for votes. Third, our rules are explained in depth before anyone joins. Fourth, our scholarship event is entirely voluntary and is oversubscibed. Fifth, no one, except Board Members, learns about Evans opt outs and they are minimal. You can draw your own conclusions. Since your proposition does not reflect our policy, it would never be presented. The implication that our policy is somehow being imposed (and that is clearly what you implied) does not reflect the views of our membership which I know very well. I suppose I might ask how you would vote but as you are not a member, that would hardly be fair. Finally, I have no problem letting the marketplace speak. Those who do not want a club with these policies should find one that suits their preferences. But don't assume that because a club adopts policies that are contrary to those espoused by outsiders, the club must be subject to the whims or dictates of a minority. That doesn't describe our club or, I might add, many others in our area that have similar policies.
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"Has the approval of trolleys at Olympic hurt the caddie program there? Do you have caddie scholarship programs in Cali? I want to steer this back to the title of the thread of courses allowing trolleys that used to not allow them."
BCowan -
Sorry, but I cannot speak with absolute authority to answer your questions. But, to the best of my knowledge -
1) the Olympic Club has a combination of a relatively small number of full-time caddies supplemented by high-school kids in the summer months and on weekends. I do not know if or how the introduction of push carts on the Ocean Course has impacted the caddie program. My sense is only a relatively small percentage of golfers at Olympic take caddies on either course.
2) I am not aware of caddie scholarship programs in California similar to the Evans program.
DT
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Lou - it strikes me that, as Pat M and others have noted countless times regarding a wide range of matters (e.g. from membership categories to maintenance practices) "it's a private club, so what they do is their own affair." Prospective members have the freedom not to join if they are aware of practices/principles/an ethos not to their liking; and existing members can work to influence those policies and practices, or choose to leave, or - in this case -- even "opt out" of a specific program the club supports. What could be fairer? And what business is it of yours or mine or anyone elses what that club or its members do? Yes, as noted, if I had the means and opportunity, I'd be proud to be a member of SL's club and to support that program; if someone else wouldn't, there are plenty of other places to play/become a member at. What would a secret ballot of members 'prove'? And why should the club/members prove anything to us outsiders? (Hey, why don't we ask Augusta National leadership if they'd be willing to hold a secret poll to determine if members want to automatically contribute to absurdly high maintenance practices for the sake of the tv exposure one week a year? My point: I grow tired of the notion that excess and selfishness and exclusivity and greed are all rights to be protected, while our impulses towards serving a broader good need to be carefully scrutinized lest we prove ourselves dictators). It's a free market, right?
Peter
Edit: just saw SL's more reasoned and reasonable answer.
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Members demanded them at my club and were willing to have higher dues to make up for the lost cart revenue. Members being more active by walking may extend their membership length?
Don't see them as a big deal. Membership demographics don't support use of caddies which would be preferred. No club within an hour plus has any significant caddy program or Caddies at all that I am aware of.
They are member owned with a couple club owned ones for guests or fill in. Club Storage for them is in addition to the bag but the staff sets your bag up on your cart.
Dan
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As I stated in a prior post, I'm not personally a fan of push carts. But I think they ought to be an option, if the membership wants them. Ultimately it's up to the members whether to allow them, and to prospective members whether to join based on club policies.
That said, does it make sense to charge members using push carts (or carrying) to make up for lost cart revenue? Why should a club count on cart revenue as part of it's bottomline? It doesn't seem economically feasible for a club to depend on cart revenues to break even. I know I'm dreaming here, but I think that the point should be to reduce costs and make membership more affordable if the goal of most clubs is to survive.
Also, maybe I'm cheap for not wanting to pay a few extra $$ to cover lost cart revenue, but so be it. Maybe most members at high-end clubs in NYC or Chicago or LA have no problem dropping a few thousand in addition to $20K+ in ordinary dues. But that's not the reality in most markets around the country (and certainly not overseas). The key to survival is to reduce costs and make club membership more attractive to families, and that's not going to happen by limiting options and driving up costs.
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'' Members being more active by walking may extend their membership length?''
Makes sense to me. Dan, have you been able to attract new members since allowing them, and do people in the area know you allow them now? Thanks for your post. What City/State?
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Brian
I agree with you 100%!
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'' Members being more active by walking may extend their membership length?''
Makes sense to me. Dan, have you been able to attract new members since allowing them, and do people in the area know you allow them now? Thanks for your post. What City/State?
This was done many years ago. One of the early adopters. Also the club was at the lower end of local privates at the time. The lower end clubs adopted earlier than others. Don't think it ever really helped in membership growth but maybe one or two.
Interestingly when my club went semi private and there was a mass exodus of its members to another local private club which at the time had a small, club owned rental fleet. The use of member owned carts and storage was one if not the biggest issue that was created. The incoming members demanded that they could use and store their carts with no trail fee or additional expense outside of storage. It took the new club time to adapt to providing the service and build the additional storage needed to accommodate the significant growth. I think the new clubs handling of this issue was a key factor in melding the two clubs together.
It would be interesting to know how much if any of the original members of the "new" club that have adopted the use of the member owned push cart?
With my club now being semi private push cart use is way down due to a riding cart being included for non members in the daily rate.
Over half of the local clubs now allow them. A few clubs have a fleet and you rent them, the majority that allow use have member owned ones. A couple of hold outs are still having the discussion.
Biggest issue for my club at the time was the ability to store the carts in addition to bags for the members. One of the clubs were members carts are the norm had to install a new storage solution while another had to add additional storage to meet the demand.
Upstate NY, Albany Area.
Dan
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The implication that our policy is somehow being imposed (and that is clearly what you implied) does not reflect the views of our membership which I know very well. I suppose I might ask how you would vote but as you are not a member, that would hardly be fair. Finally, I have no problem letting the marketplace speak. Those who do not want a club with these policies should find one that suits their preferences. But don't assume that because a club adopts policies that are contrary to those espoused by outsiders, the club must be subject to the whims or dictates of a minority. That doesn't describe our club or, I might add, many others in our area that have similar policies.
I was not implying anything nor am I attempting to tell you or your club what to do. I am not familiar with the membership nor the identity of your club. We have broached this subject before and as you did on this thread, you presented your club's position on caddies which appears to be, if I may paraphrase, if you want to walk and a caddie is available, a caddie is required. I was just curious whether you would allow this policy to come up for a vote and live with the consequences. After your reply, I am no longer interested.
You seem to imply in your reply that the mandatory caddie use when walking policy enjoys majority support at your club. So, had I joined your club knowing how important and set-in-stone this policy was, I would have no issue. In reality, I would not have even looked at your club just as I am sure your club would not have had any interest in me as a member.
Personally, I prefer clubs and organizations with few rules for reasonable people with common interests and relatively few affectations. Others may think that requiring a caddie or a motorized cart is very sensible. Golf is a big world. I did find it amusing learning from an unimpeachable source that not a small number of members of a Top 10 club with a mandatory caddie policy wait until the caddies are gone in the mid-afternoon before they venture out to the course. It just seems that life would be much simpler and enjoyable if people did their thing and were willing to incur the full cost of their preferences.
And what business is it of yours or mine or anyone elses what that club or its members do? Yes, as noted, if I had the means and opportunity, I'd be proud to be a member of SL's club and to support that program; if someone else wouldn't, there are plenty of other places to play/become a member at. What would a secret ballot of members 'prove'? And why should the club/members prove anything to us outsiders? (Hey, why don't we ask Augusta National leadership if they'd be willing to hold a secret poll to determine if members want to automatically contribute to absurdly high maintenance practices for the sake of the tv exposure one week a year? My point: I grow tired of the notion that excess and selfishness and exclusivity and greed are all rights to be protected, while our impulses towards serving a broader good need to be carefully scrutinized lest we prove ourselves dictators). It's a free market, right?
I normally don't address "stuff" like this, but I'll try this one time. What I would like to write I can't without offending you and many others who think like you, so I will just limit it to a couple of things.
First of all, what SL's club does is but of mild interest to me and I have absolutely nothing riding on how it conducts its affairs.. He brought it up as he has other times before, noting the great cause it serves (ESP). Being that you are much more impressed, perhaps even enamored with SL, his perspectives, and his way of expressing himself on this DG than I am, I understand and will countenance your tone.
Second, and most important, the point of a secret ballot is that people often act very differently when cloaked in anonymity than in the presence of pressure groups (the social psychology literature is a treasure trove on this stuff if you want to check it out). The reason why labor unions are so much for card check is precisely that it puts them in much greater control of the process. Ditto for the insistence on posting on this site under your proper name. The results of a secret ballot are likely to be different and much more representative of what members believe than an expression of support or a show of hands in front of influential board and committee members which drive many important decisions. SL offers that he knows his membership well and that the mandatory-caddies-if-walking policy enjoys majority support at his club, and I accept that (though for my own amusement, I wouldn't mind seeing him test it).
As to your weariness, well, I could suggest some help, but you really don't want to hear what I have to offer. You like citations and references to smart people. It was likely an unknown simple person who once passed on to me a great piece of advice: happiness comes from within. Another one: when you point the finger at someone (the selfish, the greedy, the ones who value exclusivity), three fingers are pointing back at you. BTW, who was it that said life was like a box of chocolates? Good stuff! ;)
For the record, I like walking, push carts, the occasional riding cart, and the opportunity to choose my means. In the Dallas area at least, push carts are gaining greater acceptance, even though a number of clubs have their own fleet and require that you rent them.
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Lou - I half regretted my post because of its testiness. Nonetheless, I'll ignore your long post and your whole rash of assumptions and insinuations about me, because as you suggest there'd be no point in our trying to have a discussion. I'll only note this: yours was the only post in this thread that didn't stick to discussing/arguing the pros and cons of the subject at hand, but instead choose to question the motives, integrity and character of another poster, and none of it directly but by snide implication instead. (Your rhetorical 'musings' meant little else.) For me, THAT'S the bottom line; and for the purposes of a discussion board about gca, that bottom line is all I need to know. Btw, I've never met SL, never met anyone on this site in fact save for Joe Hancock. Yes, there are some that - from their posts - I tend to like more than others. So let's agree - I'll completely ignore you and your posts from here on in, and you can completely ignore mine.
Peter
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''In the Dallas area at least, push carts are gaining greater acceptance, even though a number of clubs have their own fleet and require that you rent them.''
Okay guys lets bring it back to the subject. This is good news for the most part. Wish the clubs didn't make you rent their trolleys. Lou tell us about the Dallas market. I do want to say that I support the Evans very much so, and hope more programs like it come about. Even courses that no longer have caddies still give money to it through dues, which is great!
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For Christ's sake Peter, you can't even do what you said in your second sentence. Unlike you, I have met SL Solow, and though I don't claim to know him, I do read his posts carefully and have a good understanding of where he is coming from. If he or you wish to believe that I was questioning his motives, integrity, or character, you're free to hold such fantasies. I repeat, I did not. Though I'd rather be liked than not, it is not my purpose in participating on this DG- the only interactive internet activity I participate in- to build a group of admirers or to gain access to the best golf courses. I am interested in a variety of golf related matters and when I see something I care to comment on, I do so.
How we enjoy our golf is very personal. I don't feel I have the right to tell anyone how they should play, whether they prefer riding, carrying, taking a caddie, or pushing a cart. If I was a member of club holding a referendum on which things should be required, I'd be voting in favor of very few not already covered in the etiquette of golf.
At the same time, if a club wishes to enact a mandatory policy, it is its prerogative as it is mine to either accept its terms or play elsewhere. I had a very painful separation from a club of over 20 years because one day it decided that golfers playing before noon on weekends and holidays were required to take and pay for a cart (later it was changed to just pay, though I was about the only taker of their generosity). To the management's credit, it made no bones about it, it was all about revenues.
I am not questioning SL's representation that his club's membership widely supports its policy making it mandatory to take a caddie when walking, though a skeptic might wonder why, if it is so popular, must it be "required". In my part of the world, it would be nearly impossible to establish a club where the majority of members would impose on themselves mandatory caddies with similar conditions. Chicago has a much longer tradition in the game and I can see where such a membership is possible.
But by all means, do ignore my posts. I believe I expressed similar sentiments to SL in the past. Alas, I lack discipline. Your view of the world appears to be well set, so it makes great sense from a time management standpoint. Believe me that I too am selective on the subjects and posters I give my time of day.
BCowan,
Thanks for your attempt at making peace. The good folks of Texas are extremely generous and contributing to good causes has been an important part of life from the first days. I too would rather use my own Clicgear, but I understand the need for revenues and to maintain an image (a uniform fleet of well-maintained carts). Along with better water management and environmental focus, these are important baby steps.
One thing I wish I could impact is course setup. Most superintendents seem to have misunderstood the "Play It Forward" initiative and they are basically pushing the tees up 200+ yards without changing the course ratings. It's a killer for handicap competitions against players from more serious clubs. If you really have specific questions about the market, I can probably get good answers.
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Lou; I had intended to withdraw from this discussion, having staked out my position. However the recent exchanges, which in all fairness were largely instituted by Peter, compel me to make a few brief comments.
First, I remember our meeting at the Glen Club. I enjoyed the conversation and I suspect I would enjoy a round of golf together. If you get back to Chicago, let me know. However, your suggestion that your initial post did not reflect an undertone of disparagement and disbelief is more than a little disingenuous. Its not that I mind anyone disagreeing with me; after all I make a living taking sides in disputes. I just prefer to be up front about it. Moreover, the mere fact that I disagree with someone on issues, be they political, economic or even golf related does not disqualify them from being my friends. I have had ongoing disputes with some friends and mentors for more than 50 years.
But even your most recent post reflects your incredulity with your references to members at other clubs who play after mandatory times or your suggestion that if our policy had such wide support we wouldn't need it. So let"s be honest with each other. I don't claim that any policy at our club enjoys 100% support but I know that the vast majority favor this approach. Our club is also one that recognizes human nature and realizes that notwithstanding this support, when faced with a chance to save a few bucks, some will ignore their "better natures". Eventually this will erode the program as fewer loops will lead to fewer caddies. So we have decided that a rule is appropriate. Its not a matter of snobbery, I assure you, but a recognition that we think the program is worth preserving for all the reasons previously enumerated. As noted, prospective members are informed of the policy and any member can seek a referendum to change any rule.
But, there are not many rules at our club; it is a pretty laid back place as those who have visited from the board will attest. I hope some day I can host you. We can talk politics, economics and golf course architecture between shots and after golf. With luck, you'll have your bag carried by one of our Evans or Briarwood Scholars. It would be a good day.
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Lou, one other point, this one far more related to golf. Your club should contact the local golf association that handles course ratings in Dallas. The USGA guidelines provide for different ratings from different tees. Since distance is the largest single component in the course rating formula, you are absolutely correct that those posting scores from "play it forward" tees are getting hammered on handicaps when they travel unless the rating is reduced to reflect the shorter yardage. We conduct these types of ratings at the CDGA on a regular basis. Your association should do so as well.
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. . .
One thing I wish I could impact is course setup. Most superintendents seem to have misunderstood the "Play It Forward" initiative and they are basically pushing the tees up 200+ yards without changing the course ratings. It's a killer for handicap competitions against players from more serious clubs. If you really have specific questions about the market, I can probably get good answers.
Lou - Not sure how this got into a trolleys/push carts thread, but let me ask this about "playing it forward" and course ratings. My understanding is that courses are rated and sloped separately for each tee, so as long as the slopes and ratings are properly (as can be) done for each set of tees, and handicaps adjusted accordingly for play from said tees, playing it forward should not, in theory, make any difference in competitiveness. So, are you saying that the "supers" will, say, move the whites a notch closer, to where the reds normally are, yet play competitions off ratings and slopes for the white tees? A different question - should not an appropriate club committee be making tee decisions for competitions, and instructing the supers where to set the tees?
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However, your suggestion that your initial post did not reflect an undertone of disparagement and disbelief is more than a little disingenuous. Its not that I mind anyone disagreeing with me; after all I make a living taking sides in disputes. I just prefer to be up front about it.
Admittedly, English is not my first language and I have had little formal training in communications. I have been blessed, however, with the ability to figure things out on the fly and to assimilate information easily. I do know that often how the message is received is more important than what it contains. Here again is what I wrote initially:
I wonder if Mr. Solow, if he had the power to do so, would allow a simple secret ballot on this one question at his club AND live with the results?
Preface:
"Members of the various committees and boards of the club believe that the use of caddies is important for a variety of reasons including the support of the Evans Scholarship Program. We believe that without the use of caddies being mandatory, the club's support for the program will be greatly diminished, possibly leading to the demise of the program."
Question:
"Yes or no, should members and their guests be required to use and pay for a caddie when they play golf at the club?"
I can see how you might perceive disbelief in the above, but disparagement? Might you be allowing our past disagreements not the least of which is our very different political ideology to seep in ascribing ill motives? And what set your pal off to accuse me of impugning your character and integrity? I simply wanted to know if you would be willing to have a referendum- some folks believe that since a rather small number of members are willing to get heavily involved in club matters, it is not a democratic process and the major decisions should fall on them. I am satisfied with your reply.
But even your most recent post reflects your incredulity with your references to members at other clubs who play after mandatory times or your suggestion that if our policy had such wide support we wouldn't need it. So let"s be honest with each other. I don't claim that any policy at our club enjoys 100% support but I know that the vast majority favor this approach. Our club is also one that recognizes human nature and realizes that notwithstanding this support, when faced with a chance to save a few bucks, some will ignore their "better natures". Eventually this will erode the program as fewer loops will lead to fewer caddies. So we have decided that a rule is appropriate. Its not a matter of snobbery, I assure you, but a recognition that we think the program is worth preserving for all the reasons previously enumerated. As noted, prospective members are informed of the policy and any member can seek a referendum to change any rule.
Again, the experience that you describe at your club is not one I am familiar with. I do not doubt that what you believe and present here is true, though I think it is probably exceptional (admittedly, I am not very familiar with the old east coast clubs). My reference to the Top 10 club supports the second part of your last statement about their 'better natures'. Your system appears to work to your club's satisfaction. I would probably prefer one that achieves similar results without being "mandatory" or peer pressured. And that's about as honest as I can get.
I do appreciate your kind offer to play. I am in the sunset of my golfing life and there are so many places I have yet to see. I am fortunate to have played quite a few courses in the Chicago area and I am a big fan. Perhaps one day.
Thanks also for the suggestion on getting the Texas Golf Association involved in rating some new tees. The problem is not so much that there are not four or five sets of tees already rated at most courses. It is that the maintenance staff sets up the tees with no rhyme or reason other than to move more than half of them to the front end of the tee boxes, sometimes as much as half way in front of the plate for the next set of tees. Seldom do I see any of the tees behind the plates. While this practice seems to be more common at daily fee facilities during the weekend (ostensibly to speed up play), my home course does it pretty much all six days each week (though the back tees seem to be less variable).
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Lou; Thanks for the reasoned response. Be assured from my end that any political differences we may have are simply that,political differences. They make no difference in my analysis of any individual issue. As an aside, my favorite Professor of all time at any level was a gentleman who I met in 1970. We became fast friends and I was fortunate that before he retired, he also taught and mentored my son. Politically we are at very different points on the spectrum. But ever since we became acquainted, we enjoyed the exchange of ideas and shared other interests. That continues today. So while you and I may disagree, from my end it will always be substantive and issue specific. Who knows, from time to time we may agree!
As for the course set up issue, I now have a better understanding. You must have some pretty long tees although a change of 10 yards on every hole could add up. Perhaps a conversation with your pro and super might help. Alternatively, a new set of plates near the front of the tees which gets rated? Tee it forward was really conceived as a way to get folks to move up one set of tees to a length they could handle, not as an excuse to push tees forward which might lessen the experience for one playing the appropriate markers.
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My understanding is that courses are rated and sloped separately for each tee, so as long as the slopes and ratings are properly (as can be) done for each set of tees, and handicaps adjusted accordingly for play from said tees, playing it forward should not, in theory, make any difference in competitiveness. So, are you saying that the "supers" will, say, move the whites a notch closer, to where the reds normally are, yet play competitions off ratings and slopes for the white tees? A different question - should not an appropriate club committee be making tee decisions for competitions, and instructing the supers where to set the tees?
I don't play much competitive golf any more, so what I am talking about is normal daily play. As I noted in my comments to SL, the process seems to be haphazard and it would be difficult to get an accurate course/slope rating because the tees are all over the place, though nearly always shorter. When I was playing tournament golf, only the club championships and city and regional tournaments seemed to have course set ups that were thoughtfully planned. In the several clubs I've been a member of over the last 40+ years, the relationships between the pro shop and the maintenance staff were arms-length at best and often testy. At a couple places, it was non-existent (I have never belonged to a member-owned club).
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Lou,
How many strokes do you need? You are already pushing against double digits. Last I checked you were a 6.3 index. Do they not offer gratis lessons in Texas?
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Lou,
How many strokes do you need? You are already pushing against double digits. Last I checked you were a 6.3 index. Do they not offer gratis lessons in Texas?
Mine was mostly a general gripe. I play in very few competitions anymore and I keep my handicap more as a means to document my inevitable decline (I also weigh myself and test my blood when I wake up each morning, other mostly losing battles, but something I highly recommend). BTW, with my last two scores, the index is now 7.1 (I am wiping out some better rounds from last Oct. and Nov. before I took off the better part of two months). My goal is to be an 8 by the 5th Major in case I have to go up against you and a 4 by the Buda.
I had several lessons in 2013 from Nathan at my home club which were helpful. What I really need is golf-related conditioning which I have been meaning to do for years, but can't seem to overcome my inertia.
You must have some pretty long tees although a change of 10 yards on every hole could add up. Perhaps a conversation with your pro and super might help. Alternatively, a new set of plates near the front of the tees which gets rated? Tee it forward was really conceived as a way to get folks to move up one set of tees to a length they could handle, not as an excuse to push tees forward which might lessen the experience for one playing the appropriate markers.
Some courses do have very long tees- 4+ club difference. Others like my home club have a combination of irregularly shaped, long, medium, and small teeing areas set at varying angles. The supt. and his asst. are very capable, but being that it is a non-equity private club where the owner has a fairly strict firewall between herself and the members, they communicate primarily through formal club newsletters and emails. I have resigned effective the end of this month, so it is not worth pursuing further. It could also be that the membership may not share in my concern- probably because I never play in high stake games, I've come across far more golfers who value a vanity handicap than those who fudge to gain a competitive advantage; what's losing $25-$50 if one is perceived to be a "stick"?
I think that the Play It Forward initiative gives some operators cover to misapply it, when what they're really trying to do is get golfers around the course faster and with better scores, without having to put much effort into it. While I have no issue with golf design which makes the course appear harder than it plays, I do with what I am describing. Guys I often play with will go up to whatever set of tees they normally play without giving it a second thought. If a tee is way up, particularly if it seems to be done often and provided that I am disrupting play, I will go back to the plate of the proper tee and hit from there. No doubt that some of the folks think it is weird, but I am OK with that. Admittedly, with all the many things ailing golf today, this one is a very minor one, but one that has my craw nonetheless.
To bring it back to the subject, about the only thing I can think of that's bad about push carts other than reducing the source of revenues to the club is that they can sometimes clutter around the clubhouse. This may not be a problem with clubs which do a lot of volume on riding carts and already have staging areas, but I have seen a couple places where 30-40 push carts in heavily traveled areas seemed to be creating some flow issues.
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I think that the Play It Forward initiative gives some operators cover to misapply it, when what they're really trying to do is get golfers around the course faster and with better scores, without having to put much effort into it. While I have no issue with golf design which makes the course appear harder than it plays, I do with what I am describing. Guys I often play with will go up to whatever set of tees they normally play without giving it a second thought. If a tee is way up, particularly if it seems to be done often and provided that I am disrupting play, I will go back to the plate of the proper tee and hit from there. No doubt that some of the folks think it is weird, but I am OK with that. Admittedly, with all the many things ailing golf today, this one is a very minor one, but one that has my craw nonetheless.
The USGA handicap system has a simple way to deal with this problem. (FWIW, I don't think it has anything to do with Play It Forward, as daily-fee and resort courses have been doing this for years. Just last week I played Longbow GC in Mesa AZ and as usual it played much shorter than the card on several holes.)
The solution can be found here:
(http://www.usga.org/assets/0/1181/1514/296dcb97-945c-49e8-b407-b8557a8d40f9.gif)
It's not hard to make a note on the card of holes that are played off the shorter tee, just circle the yardage it played from, add up the difference and use the chart.
K
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Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?
Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now. We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board. Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them. The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average. We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men. We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas. The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.
I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.
This was emailed to me and came from some magazine. Happy to see that someone had the sense to print this.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/840/7uhn.jpg)
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BCowan -
Thanks for posting that article.
I am sure I have posted this earlier on this thread, but just as a reminder, clubs that offer 3-wheel pushcarts/trolleys in Northern California include:
- California Golf Club
- Lake Merced
- Monterey Peninsula
- Sonoma GC
- Olympic Club (Ocean Course)
DT
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My home course allows the use of push/pull carts with the caveat that they must be rented from the pro shop for a small fee. I don't know the specifics on how the policy was approved because it was adopted well before I joined. I do know that it seems fairly popular. Most golfers either carry or ride but a fair number rent the either pushcarts (Sun Mountain) or pullcarts (the wide-wheeled rickshaw variety).
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I will never cease to find these arguments not only hilarious, but an interesting cultural contrast. I simply don't get why there is even a debate. Buggies (as we call push carts) are the standard, it is the these silly ride on carts that are the subject of disdain and ridicule.
Amazing how the US always finds a way look at an issue from a whole new perspective. Never dull
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Josh. Many os us in the USA don't understand it either
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Although I confess there may be a regulatory issue in play in Australia - we are as fat and lazy as you.
At Australian private clubs, social golf is the minority, the vast bulk of rounds are in competition which in turn are used for national handicapping purposes. In the interests of equity and fairness then it is usual (at least at the proper clubs - cant speak for those semi resort things) that riding in a cart is only permitted if you can provide a medical certificate from a specialist outlining why you are unable to walk. As my track is quite hilly,on a warm day, riding would be a huge advantage and so is not permitted unless you are on deaths door.
Socially its different and you can do as you please
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My club has two rules that I hate. The first is a complete ban on push carts. I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts. I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.
The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride. I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good). The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.
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My club has two rules that I hate. The first is a complete ban on push carts. I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts. I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.
The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride. I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good). The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.
For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag). You use your own -- not the club's. The club will store for you for $10/month. Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes. If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived. We do not have a caddy program. There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise. Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart. All of which seems quite reasonable to me.
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My member-owned club in South Carolina has the same policies as Carl's except for the mandatory carts on Saturday mornings. That idea was mooted by the Board a few years back and never implemented due to overwhelmingly negative member feedback.
[EDIT] I forgot to mention that there is a per-round fee for walking at my club. It is three dollars (a buck fifty for nine holes) per round. The riding cart fee is somewhere in the twenty dollar range.
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Carl Nichols -
Good luck with your quest. I hope the trial period for push carts comes about.
Personally, I could never imagine belonging to a golf club where I would be charged a fee to walk at any time.
DT
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Carl Nichols -
Good luck with your quest. I hope the trial period for push carts comes about.
Personally, I could never imagine belonging to a golf club where I would be charged a fee to walk at any time.
DT
Thanks David. The fee didn't exist when I joined. Several years ago we instituted a "trail fee" to walk on weekend mornings, but the amount was much lower (I think the first year it was $7 or $8). I don't know when it got jacked up to what it is now.
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My club has two rules that I hate. The first is a complete ban on push carts. I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts. I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.
The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride. I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good). The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.
For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag). You use your own -- not the club's. The club will store for you for $10/month. Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes. If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived. We do not have a caddy program. There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise. Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart. All of which seems quite reasonable to me.
Do you agree with the pace-of-play justification for the riding requirement on Saturday mornings--and do you agree that that's a reasonable rule?
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My club has two rules that I hate. The first is a complete ban on push carts. I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts. I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.
The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride. I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good). The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.
For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag). You use your own -- not the club's. The club will store for you for $10/month. Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes. If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived. We do not have a caddy program. There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise. Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart. All of which seems quite reasonable to me.
Do you agree with the pace-of-play justification for the riding requirement on Saturday mornings--and do you agree that that's a reasonable rule?
I won't answer for Carl but my club is near enough to an even mix of walkers and riders most weekend days. I can not perceive any difference in pace of play between the two. Many of the quickest players in the club are walkers but I can also think of a couple guys who play really quick who are riders. And of course plenty of slowpokes to be found in both groups as well.
Of course the rhythm of playing in carts vs. walking is totally different. So when walkers and cart riders play together each of them will be waiting on the other at certain points during the round. Which leads to both "sides" claiming that the other plays slowly.
This past Sunday I played a very slow round (by the standards of my club). I was playing solo and teed off behind a long string of foursomes and threesomes so I knew it would be a long day. There were two visitors (two gentlemen playing under a reciprocal-play arrangement with an out of town club) in a cart with the tee time right behind me. Both myself and the assistant pro who signed them in suggested they pair up with me since the course was full ahead of us. When we got to the first tee they noticed that I was walking as were the group ahead of us. They made some comment about how they didn't have time to play behind a bunch of walkers and bailed on me without even a fare-thee-well. Of course the foursomes two and three groups ahead of us were all cart riders but apparently that fact was lost on our two visitors.
Preconceptions abound, unfortunately.
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You will never win this argument if you create the illusion that it is all about money. I get the distinct impression that many or most of you would be against a policy that everyone plays for free regardless if they walk, ride, cadet or trolley. You seem to feel a need to pay less than cart riders.
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John,
I'm just a very self-centered trunk slammer. All I care about is being able to show up and play golf in my accustomed manner (walking, usually with a push cart) and how much my bill is at the end of the month. I couldn't care less about what someone else does or doesn't pay to use or not use a riding cart.
I eat lunch in the dining room but don't drink so similarly, I care about the quality of the food and how much I'm billed for it but am not really concerned about the selection of single malts or how much the bartender charges another member for his beer.
It's actually fine with me to get billed an extra $30 this month to cover my "walking fee" for ten rounds of golf. I figure that's one little disincentive for some genius on the Board of Directors to start pitching one of those mandatory riding cart at prime time policies.
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My club has two rules that I hate. The first is a complete ban on push carts. I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts. I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.
The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride. I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good). The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.
For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag). You use your own -- not the club's. The club will store for you for $10/month. Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes. If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived. We do not have a caddy program. There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise. Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart. All of which seems quite reasonable to me.
Do you agree with the pace-of-play justification for the riding requirement on Saturday mornings--and do you agree that that's a reasonable rule?
Carl Nichols - personally I don't think riding helps pace of play at our course. I don't know what data the club has on this - I doubt any. It seems reasonable on its face, but my anecdotal experience as a golfer who mostly walks (except Sat. a.m.) says it is not a sound policy justification. Walkers, as dedicated golfers, are generally fast players, in my experience. However, at this stage in my club membership it's not something I care that much about. Up until a few years ago we required carts at more times, but I forget the details. So, we are moving in the right direction. Also, I should have said that Sat. a.m. riding requirement only applies during daylight savings time. Carl Johnson
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You will never win this argument if you create the illusion that it is all about money. I get the distinct impression that many or most of you would be against a policy that everyone plays for free regardless if they walk, ride, cadet or trolley. You seem to feel a need to pay less than cart riders.
Not quite sure I get your point, exactly, but here's my view: I belong to a golf club. I joined to have a place to play golf. I paid an initiation fee and pay monthly dues. That's so I can play golf. Golf is a walking game. I regard carts as an extra, it's an expense over and above what's necessary (except for medical issues) to play golf. Therefore, if we have carts, which we do, then those who choose to use them should pay for them - to cover the cost - not to provide the club with a "profit." Having said that, a club could adopt a business model that accepts riding carts as part of the normal game, and structures basic dues to cover the cost of carts for those who wish to ride. I wouldn't want to join such a club, but it could be a viable business model.
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On behalf of every golfer in Britain, thanks for this excellent comedy thread. ;D
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On behalf of every golfer in Britain, thanks for this excellent comedy thread. ;D
And to all of you Brits, (on behalf of myself) you are very welcome. ;D
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Paul,
I hope you're over 60 so you don't have to be around in 20 years when the riding-cart culture takes over British golf. It's coming and there isn't a thing you can do to stop it.
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I watched the New Era Junior Championship this week at River Oaks on Grand Island, NY (8.2 minutes from mi casa.)
Among the girls, I'd say 90% used push carts. Among the boys, probably 35%.
What that tells me is, that group will have fewer back issues in 20 years if they keep pushing.
Unless a club has a caddy program and well-heeled members, push carts should never be a negative/prohibited.
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I still don't get this thread.
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Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?
Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now. We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board. Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them. The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average. We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men. We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas. The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.
I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.
Thanks
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Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?
Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now. We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board. Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them. The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average. We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men. We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas. The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.
I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.
Thanks
Come August I'll have been a member of my walking-friendly club for 20 years. We have no caddie program and the course is walkable (tees close to greens, although hilly). In my experience there's never been a political or stigma problem with the walking culture at the club. Maybe I'm just "out of it," but that's my sense. Keep in mind that my club is a golf club -- not a typical full scale American country club.
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Paul,
I hope you're over 60 so you don't have to be around in 20 years when the riding-cart culture takes over British golf. It's coming and there isn't a thing you can do to stop it.
I say this with a huge slice of optimism but I'm genuinely of the opinion that the buggy, as we call carts over here, is already becoming a little passe. Certainly I won't be too surprised if I'm wrong as convenience culture does tend to arrive later in Britain but, over all, there are signs already that using a buggy is an insult to ones manliness. Great for the elderly and I'll be happy to get in one when my legs pack up but by then I'll hopefully have stopped pretending to myself that I can actually play the game a little.
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So where did this apparent Muni stigma come from? Royal Melbourne and Sunningdale seem to manage with the shame ok
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I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.
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Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?
Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now. We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board. Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them. The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average. We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men. We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas. The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.
I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.
Thanks
Come August I'll have been a member of my walking-friendly club for 20 years. We have no caddie program and the course is walkable (tees close to greens, although hilly). In my experience there's never been a political or stigma problem with the walking culture at the club. Maybe I'm just "out of it," but that's my sense. Keep in mind that my club is a golf club -- not a typical full scale American country club.
Carl, I was just reposting the initial post to help Mr Tigerman out with understanding what the thread was about. You have good taste and make very good sense. You are ''in the know''..
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I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.
So if your club adopted a policy where all golfers could either walk or ride for no additional costs you would resign?
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I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.
So if your club adopted a policy where all golfers could either walk or ride for no additional costs you would resign?
No I would not. If the policy allows for choice, why would I resign? I'm opposed to mandatory means of conveyance--be it cart, caddie, trolley, Segway, skateboard, etc.
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At my club it's walk with no additional charge (carry or walk with your own trolley), use a trolley that belongs to the club for $4, or ride for $16. I'm guessing 80% of the rounds are walking or trolley.
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You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use. My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.
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Hoover,
It is a wonder how private clubs survived prior to the golf cart :o. The progies tried to institute a ''Trail Fee'' one year at my parents club, they axed that very quick as in it never got off the ground..
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You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use. My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.
True, people don't realize they're really paying in the monthly base the option to take the cart. I appreciate having the option always available despite that i'm a walker. Options don't come for free.
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You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use. My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.
Carts require a mechanic which repairs and maintains the carts. The cart costs money initially, hence people are charged when they take them. Now charging $25 a cart maybe your clubs problem, not the walker who pays monthly dues in which to enjoy his club the proper way. Your arguments of subsidizing are ludicrous. Using carts as a means of revenue and balancing the books is sad too.
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I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.
So if your club adopted a policy where all golfers could either walk or ride for no additional costs you would resign?
I don't want to get sucked into your vortex (I get enough of that in my career dealing with the government).
If my club allowed the choice of walking for free or riding at no charge, then I would be fine with it. I am also fine with choosing between walking for free or paying to ride or use a caddie. It's the lack of choice that bothers me.
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I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.
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I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.
And I'm now sucked into the JakaB vortex...Presumably the monthly dues cover the costs of the pool, does it not? I bet you're a joy to be around at your club. Remind me not to become a member where you are.
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I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.
Social memberships should cover the cost for most of the pool. muni's are courses run by a local gov't. We do enjoy our clubs and I don't pinch pennies, just have a different set of principles then yourself. I have always advocated for golf clubs and individual memberships. No need for pools at golf clubs.
''Remind me not to become a member where you are''
+1
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Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.
Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.
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Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.
Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.
So then where the hell do we disagree? Oh wait, you're just trying to stir up an argument. Vortex...
If my dues cover the choice, then so be it.
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Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.
Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.
What is the point of having monthly dues? Why should someone be charged $1200 a year when they walk? They have their own trolley and or carry. They aren't requiring the club to purchase carts. If you use a cart, simply pay for it. Club overcharging for carts and then blaming walkers is what you are advocating. U defiantly are stuck in Utopia. Of course the few golf clubs that I know of are doing very well and would be doing horrible if they initiated a $1200 a year Trail/Cart fee.
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We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.
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We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.
''You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club.''
Such as? As I said the social membership is very strong at the club I grew up at and they are paying for the pool expenses. When you make any sense, get back to me.
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I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.
Interesting you should bring this up. My "golf" club does have a pool - the only extra. No extra charge. But, I'll guarantee you this. If we did not have the pool (we're in North Carolina, remember) as part of the basic membership, we would not have a golf club. So, no problem. It's part of the deal. I knew that when I joined. I knew the business model it would take for the club to thrive, or thought I did. So far, so good. Oh, and we also have a grill menu - no formal dining. You could say that's subsidized too. But golf is the biggest subsidized program of all.
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We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.
I disagree with you here, too. But it's not a question of right or wrong. It's a question of options and choice. It's not elitism. I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account. (And, I should add, it's not so much the cost consideration, but rather the club culture reflected by such a policy that would bother me.) So, you have clubs with different models. Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason. The market can work this out.
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We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.
I disagree with you here, too. But it's not a question of right or wrong. It's a question of options and choice. It's not elitism. I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account. So, you have clubs with different models. Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason. The market can work this out.
Exactly. Let the market dictate what works and what does not.
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You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use. My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.
Carts require a mechanic which repairs and maintains the carts. The cart costs money initially, hence people are charged when they take them. Now charging $25 a cart maybe your clubs problem, not the walker who pays monthly dues in which to enjoy his club the proper way. Your arguments of subsidizing are ludicrous. Using carts as a means of revenue and balancing the books is sad too.
The costs you're describing is variable cost which the cart fees go to cover. Everyone pays the infrastructure costs which is the building to charge and store the carts and costs of building and maintaining cart paths.
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We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.
I disagree with you here, too. But it's not a question of right or wrong. It's a question of options and choice. It's not elitism. I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account. So, you have clubs with different models. Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason. The market can work this out.
Exactly. Let the market dictate what works and what does not.
The market has dictated that walking only courses are both rare and uber-expensive.
My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument. It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook. Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money. If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.
My personal issue is that if walking is so fantastic then people should be willing to pay more for the privilege. This of course explains why people join walking only clubs at greater expense than clubs that allow carts.
I can not think of another leisure activity where you can have an enhanced experience for less money like walking and carrying provides the country club golfer.
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"My personal issue is that if walking is so fantastic then people should be willing to pay more for the privilege."
John Kavanaugh -
You are beautiful. Even by your standards of nonsense, that one takes the cake. No one makes a phoney argument better than you do.
DT
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We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.
I disagree with you here, too. But it's not a question of right or wrong. It's a question of options and choice. It's not elitism. I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account. So, you have clubs with different models. Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason. The market can work this out.
Exactly. Let the market dictate what works and what does not.
My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument. It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook. Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money. If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.
John:
I agree, and that's why my arguments against our no-trolleys rule haven't turned on saving money at all.
As for the money question and carts, I get that there are all sorts of subsidies going on at clubs. (For example, my family plays very little tennis, so I'm subsidizing the tennis facility.) The reason I don't like the walking fee, and the reason I wouldn't want us to adopt higher dues that include carts, is because both increase the use of carts--and I'd rather be a member at a place where there's less cart use. The same isn't true of tennis. I get that's a personal view, and that's probably not the majority view at my club.
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My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument. It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook. Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money. If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.
This is actually a very good point. At a private club, presenting it as a positive addition to the member experience rather than a hit to the club's bottom line is a much more intelligent tack. Most people don't join a private club to save money in the states, they join one to have a better golfing experience. If it can be shown that providing a better golfing experience includes push-carts, then you are on to something.
Seems to me that one of those electric push-carts might be the perfect middle ground for an aging, out-of-shape golfing population, yours truly included.
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My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument. It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook. Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money. If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.
This is actually a very good point. At a private club, presenting it as a positive addition to the member experience rather than a hit to the club's bottom line is a much more intelligent tack. Most people don't join a private club to save money in the states, they join one to have a better golfing experience. If it can be shown that providing a better golfing experience includes push-carts, then you are on to something.
Seems to me that one of those electric push-carts might be the perfect middle ground for an aging, out-of-shape golfing population, yours truly included.
I'm thankfully not there yet, but I agree. On hilly courses with lots of trees and decent rough [like my club], push carts aren't that much easier on the body than carrying.
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I mostly use a push cart so I can carry a six to eight pound bottle of sand/seed mix for fixing divots on our Bermuda fairways. If it's just a lightweight stand bag and a set of clubs I agree that almost any hills (or soft spots) will make the push cart just about as much work as toting on my shoulder.
P.S. Another advantage to push carts is I can put up an umbrella for shade when playing mid-day in June and July.
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Carl,
Alternatively, we just need to join flatter courses in our dotage... 8)
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''At a private club, presenting it as a positive addition to the member experience rather than a hit to the club's bottom line is a much more intelligent tack. Most people don't join a private club to save money in the states, they join one to have a better golfing experience. If it can be shown that providing a better golfing experience includes push-carts, then you are on to something.''
That is the reason why private memberships are down, but keep attacking Pennie pinchers. People join a private club for many reasons and not all clubs are Country Clubs. The market is speaking, ''there are too many country clubs'', old guard is asleep. Business as usual. All the wasteful high salary positions could be the issue, but of course that involves economics. Gotta love the intelligentsia that lack common sense.
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Gotta love the intelligentsia that lack common sense.
I don't think anyone would confuse either golfers in general or country-club members specifically with the "intelligentsia", B.
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One bucket of money... members fighting over who has to put more in the bucket... an issue that is pointless to argue.
If your cart revenue is more than your cart expenses (lease, maintenance)... even if you put in EVERYTHING (e.g cart barn depreciation)... than the riders are subsidizing the walkers. This is the case in 99% of the clubs in America.
I have tried for years to get my Board to eliminate our cart fee and make all golf for all members free whether they walk or ride.
You take your cart revenue... divide by the number of members... raise the dues accordingly ($30 a month at my club). No restrictions... no rules. if your back is hurting you ride for free without financial penalty... if you play 9 holes and feel better... turn in the cart and walk the back nine. Unleash the pros stuck behind the counter administering cart fees and free them up to work the range or interact with the members. For those more financially oriented... lay off your assistant pro because the shop work has just been reduced to phone calls, guests and merchandise.
Only the most elite clubs can exist without golf carts. The entire industry needs to wake up and realize they are an operating expense... not a source of revenue.
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One bucket of money... members fighting over who has to put more in the bucket... an issue that is pointless to argue.
If your cart revenue is more than your cart expenses (lease, maintenance)... even if you put in EVERYTHING (e.g cart barn depreciation)... than the riders are subsidizing the walkers. This is the case in 99% of the clubs in America.
I have tried for years to get my Board to eliminate our cart fee and make all golf for all members free whether they walk or ride.
You take your cart revenue... divide by the number of members... raise the dues accordingly ($30 a month at my club). No restrictions... no rules. if your back is hurting you ride for free without financial penalty... if you play 9 holes and feel better... turn in the cart and walk the back nine. Unleash the pros stuck behind the counter administering cart fees and free them up to work the range or interact with the members. For those more financially oriented... lay off your assistant pro because the shop work has just been reduced to phone calls, guests and merchandise.
Only the most elite clubs can exist without golf carts. The entire industry needs to wake up and realize they are an operating expense... not a source of revenue.
Do you think that approach would result in more cart use?
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One bucket of money... members fighting over who has to put more in the bucket... an issue that is pointless to argue.
Not really pointless, you might want to figure out why young folk aren't joining clubs.
If your cart revenue is more than your cart expenses (lease, maintenance)... even if you put in EVERYTHING (e.g cart barn depreciation)... than the riders are subsidizing the walkers. This is the case in 99% of the clubs in America.
So justifying over priced cart fees, you are blaming walkers (who are better for the course from a maint. standpoint). You can't just lower the cart fees?
I have tried for years to get my Board to eliminate our cart fee and make all golf for all members free whether they walk or ride.
You take your cart revenue... divide by the number of members... raise the dues accordingly ($30 a month at my club). 50 members of my club and my parents would leave just out the idiocy of that collectivist ideology. Hopefully your club has enough sense not to listen your viewpoints.
No restrictions... no rules. if your back is hurting you ride for free without financial penalty... if you play 9 holes and feel better... turn in the cart and walk the back nine. Unleash the pros stuck behind the counter administering cart fees and free them up to work the range or interact with the members. That is why there is shop girl. Also that is one of the job requirements for having asst pro's, oh my having them actually work for a living.
For those more financially oriented... lay off your assistant pro because the shop work has just been reduced to phone calls, guests and merchandise.I have many friends who were asst pros and now are HP's. With online tee times, you gotta have something for an asst pro to do. Merchandise is generally handled with shop girl. The problem is all these stupid club tourney's that have been added in the last 20 years in order to attract members and keep members. Core members hate them and they require larger staffs to run them.
Only the most elite clubs can exist without golf carts. The entire industry needs to wake up and realize they are an operating expense... not a source of revenue. Yes, the industry needs to wake up and use transparent means of monthly dues covering everything. No range fee, locker fee, food fee, this fee. Monthly price with no BS. Pay for your own Buggy. Have a senior rate of $10, since they are more likely the ones to need them.
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So which are you advocating here? Is it the "monthly price with no BS" or is it "pay for your own buggy"? That's two opposite things.
P.S. Referring to "collectivist ideology" sounds doofy even when the estimable Lou Duran does it. And you're no Lou Duran. Sounds like something you picked up from listening to Fox News.
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So which are you advocating here? Is it the "monthly price with no BS" or is it "pay for your own buggy"? That's two opposite things.
Monthly membership fees that include everything except buggies. Pay as you go buggies, with Senior rates buggy fees. They need them to play and they have most likely been a member for a long time.
''Referring to "collectivist ideology" sounds doofy even when the estimable Lou Duran does it. And you're no Lou Duran. Sounds like something you picked up from listening to Fox News.''
I don't listen to fox news, nor do I agree with many of Lou's posts. It is spot on.
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So which are you advocating here? Is it the "monthly price with no BS" or is it "pay for your own buggy"? That's two opposite things.
Monthly membership fees that include everything except buggies. Pay as you go buggies, with Senior rates buggy fees. They need them to play and they have most likely been a member for a long time.
''Referring to "collectivist ideology" sounds doofy even when the estimable Lou Duran does it. And you're no Lou Duran. Sounds like something you picked up from listening to Fox News.''
I don't listen to fox news, nor do I agree with many of Lou's posts. It is spot on.
Walking fee or no walking fee on weekend mornings?
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Ah, so you're in favor of an all-inclusive membership fee that covers all the stuff YOU use but since you don't use carts they ought to be paid for separately. That's a very mainstream American attitude and also consistent with most of the country-club members I've met.
Like those 70 year old guys who are happy to lap up every drop of Medicare-paid health care they can get but work themselves into a righteous fury over the idea of the government paying for any healthcare for those lazy poor people who don't have jobs with employer-paid insurance.
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BCowan;
if you don't put a fee on the carts, then you will get excess usage by folks who don't conserve them. If that's optimal, then as you say, build it into the price of the membership. The folks who walk will be subsidizing the cart riders, but oh well. Your club will have a lot of capital tied up in carts.
Personally, I think walking / pushcarts should be free. Member required to have a cart at or above a given standard (for those who care about appearances).
Those that ride, charge them the real cost of owning(or leasing) and operating the carts for the club based on past experience. Our club has a flat per month charge in addition to dues that is a steal (about the cost of 6.5 cart fees, great for folks who play 2X or more a week).
I've continually expressed my opinion that everything in the club should either be self-sustaining or clearly subsidized from general dues (subject to proper governance from the board with substantial input from members). The idea that golf carts subsidize some other operation of a club is crazy. I'm also not a fan of a club operating a ritzy restaurant that only a small % of the members actually use. That kind of thinking will run a clubs' finance into the ground.
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Ah, so you're in favor of an all-inclusive membership fee that covers all the stuff YOU use but since you don't use carts they ought to be paid for separately. That's a very mainstream American attitude and also consistent with most of the country-club members I've met.
Both the club i grew up at and the one I play at have no food min. So your whole argument is a laugh. The club I play at now includes the range in the membership this year, and the price didn't go up, gasp. I am nothing like anyone you met. Those other fees such as locker aren't optional at many clubs. It is a phony way to have lower dues price, and then mandatory fees which many clubs have for locker and range and food min.
Like those 70 year old guys who are happy to lap up every drop of Medicare-paid health care they can get but work themselves into a righteous fury over the idea of the government paying for any healthcare for those lazy poor people who don't have jobs with employer-paid insurance.Yeah, Medicare is so efficient.
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Chip,
Roger speaks from years of hands-on experience when he says the cart fees more than cover the actual costs (direct and indirect) of making the carts available. So I'm inclined to accept his statement at face value, given that he speaks from knowledge rather than supposition.
Setting a fee, whether zero or some non-zero number, for any optional product or service always serves two purposes. It affect the revenue that is generated and it affects the behavior of those who are deciding whether to use it or not. As such, setting the cart fee at a private club has implications in both areas.
There is no question in my mind that a cart fee of zero will result in more carts being used than a cart fee of $50 per round. The effect on revenue is harder to determine because it's difficult to account for how many members a club would gain or lose by any particular change in what the club charges for a cart.
So it is ultimately either a political (for member-governed clubs) or marketing (for non-member-owned clubs) issue. The club has to decide what level of cart usage it desires and find a cart fee that produces that level of demand. Like all political questions, it does not have a clear-cut or absolute answer. Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what particular solution is chosen.
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Ah, so you're in favor of an all-inclusive membership fee that covers all the stuff YOU use but since you don't use carts they ought to be paid for separately. That's a very mainstream American attitude and also consistent with most of the country-club members I've met.
Both the club i grew up at and the one I play at have no food min. So your whole argument is a laugh. The club I play at now includes the range in the membership this year, and the price didn't go up, gasp. I am nothing like anyone you met. Those other fees such as locker aren't optional at many clubs. It is a phony way to have lower dues price, and then mandatory fees which many clubs have for locker and range and food min.
Like those 70 year old guys who are happy to lap up every drop of Medicare-paid health care they can get but work themselves into a righteous fury over the idea of the government paying for any healthcare for those lazy poor people who don't have jobs with employer-paid insurance.Yeah, Medicare is so efficient.
Believe it or not, there are clubs that require every round to use a cart and then they bill the member a cart fee.
Even harder to believe, there are clubs that require all rounds (or rounds at prime times and seasons) to use caddies and then the member has to pay the caddie.
By your reasoning, they ought to just bundle those non-optional cart or caddie fees into the dues, no?
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Chip,
Roger speaks from years of hands-on experience when he says the cart fees more than cover the actual costs (direct and indirect) of making the carts available. So I'm inclined to accept his statement at face value, given that he speaks from knowledge rather than supposition.
Setting a fee, whether zero or some non-zero number, for any optional product or service always serves two purposes. It affect the revenue that is generated and it affects the behavior of those who are deciding whether to use it or not. As such, setting the cart fee at a private club has implications in both areas.
There is no question in my mind that a cart fee of zero will result in more carts being used than a cart fee of $50 per round. The effect on revenue is harder to determine because it's difficult to account for how many members a club would gain or lose by any particular change in what the club charges for a cart.
So it is ultimately either a political (for member-governed clubs) or marketing (for non-member-owned clubs) issue. The club has to decide what level of cart usage it desires and find a cart fee that produces that level of demand. Like all political questions, it does not have a clear-cut or absolute answer. Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what particular solution is chosen.
I think I said basically the same thing?
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Chip,
Roger speaks from years of hands-on experience when he says the cart fees more than cover the actual costs (direct and indirect) of making the carts available. So I'm inclined to accept his statement at face value, given that he speaks from knowledge rather than supposition.
Setting a fee, whether zero or some non-zero number, for any optional product or service always serves two purposes. It affect the revenue that is generated and it affects the behavior of those who are deciding whether to use it or not. As such, setting the cart fee at a private club has implications in both areas.
There is no question in my mind that a cart fee of zero will result in more carts being used than a cart fee of $50 per round. The effect on revenue is harder to determine because it's difficult to account for how many members a club would gain or lose by any particular change in what the club charges for a cart.
So it is ultimately either a political (for member-governed clubs) or marketing (for non-member-owned clubs) issue. The club has to decide what level of cart usage it desires and find a cart fee that produces that level of demand. Like all political questions, it does not have a clear-cut or absolute answer. Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what particular solution is chosen.
+1 on Roger's opinions. Any club would love to have a GM who understands the golf finance side as well as he. He knows whereof he speaks.
As to rolling cart fees into the dues,there are some other considerations.
There is the idea that,without any extra charge for a cart,members will be more inclined to come out late in the afternoon for a handful of holes.Then,maybe they stay for drinks and dinner and you catch some revenue you otherwise wouldn't.
Anything that makes it easier for members to use the club and play more golf would seem to be a good thing,IMO.
We looked at the idea several years ago and got scared by the wide disparity of rounds of golf throughout the membership. "Free carts" was a great deal for about 25% of the membership,not a big change for about 50% of the membership,but an extra ~ $1000/year for the bottom 25%. Nobody wanted to run the risk of having the bottom 25% walk out the door after realizing how few rounds they were playing.
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Chip,
As I understood your comments, you're advocating for a constrained solution in which the total cost of providing carts is set equal to the total of cart fees billed. I would point out that your one particular solution may or may not actually provide the level of incentive or disincentive required to produce the club's desire amount of cart usage.
It would seem possible that the total cost of carts divided by a great many rounds of usage might work out so low that virtually everyone uses a cart for every round. That's all good if the books balance but if the club's culture/politics/preferences strongly favor walking golf then you've created an incentive pricing at odds with that walking emphasis.
Hence my suggestion that some effort be made account for the club's collective preference as to whether there are many, many carts on the course at all times versus mostly walkers with a few carts mixed in. The may be a local optimum solution to your book-balancing constraint that dictates purchasing a fleet of carts and then having everyone use the hell out of them to drive to the per-cart-round cost as low as possible. The logical extreme of such thinking is a "carts required" policy as we see at so many courses in my local area.
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Chip,
As I understood your comments, you're advocating for a constrained solution in which the total cost of providing carts is set equal to the total of cart fees billed. I would point out that your one particular solution may or may not actually provide the level of incentive or disincentive required to produce the club's desire amount of cart usage.
It would seem possible that the total cost of carts divided by a great many rounds of usage might work out so low that virtually everyone uses a cart for every round. That's all good if the books balance but if the club's culture/politics/preferences strongly favor walking golf then you've created an incentive pricing at odds with that walking emphasis.
Hence my suggestion that some effort be made account for the club's collective preference as to whether there are many, many carts on the course at all times versus mostly walkers with a few carts mixed in. The may be a local optimum solution to your book-balancing constraint that dictates purchasing a fleet of carts and then having everyone use the hell out of them to drive to the per-cart-round cost as low as possible. The logical extreme of such thinking is a "carts required" policy as we see at so many courses in my local area.
I said that IF a club wanted to do so, it would allocate the cost to the entire membership on a pro-rata basis and be done with it. Personally, I don't think that would make sense as folks would over-use that resource and would create excess cost to the membership killing the experiment. Also, I agree with @JMEvensky's comment that this has the potential of chasing off the 25% who would end up subsidizing the other 75%.
To clarify what I would do if I owned a private club: I would make sure that the cart fee rate accurately reflected the actual cost of the cart experience. (Total expense related to carts / number of rounds) and charge that and only that to members. If its $10 per round per rider, that's what I'd charge. In this instance, if the cart actually cost $10, I wouldn't charge $20 and shift the $10 to some other cost center. That's when things start going wrong at Private clubs and start subsidies of inefficient amenties that causes problems in the long run.
For example, and back to the original reason for this thread: a subset of members of my Dad's club in the coastal Carolinas wanted to bring their own push carts. Note, this same group of folks had already started to walk the course so they no longer were using carts. After the shock and horror of something so base as pushcarts on a riding only club (no caddies either), the club then worried that there was a risk of losing cart fees from the tiny % of members who didn't already walk but also wanted push carts. Why were they worried? The cart amenity was a "revenue" generator (generated excess revenues to subsidize other operations). They eventually bought a number of decent (but not as good as Cliqgear) push carts and charge a rental of $9 per round to protect revenues (and chase those who would push away).
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BCowan;
if you don't put a fee on the carts, then you will get excess usage by folks who don't conserve them. If that's optimal, then as you say, build it into the price of the membership. The folks who walk will be subsidizing the cart riders, but oh well. Your club will have a lot of capital tied up in carts.I never said carts should be included, I am completely against that model, but I understand that in certain areas it working well, you wouldn't find me there ;D. I think clubs charging members for a locker, range, and Food min. is ridiculous.
Personally, I think walking / pushcarts should be free. Member required to have a cart at or above a given standard (for those who care about appearances). Why can't members rent trolleys or bring their own? I don't think a club should have to provide free trolleys.
Those that ride, charge them the real cost of owning(or leasing) and operating the carts for the club based on past experience. Our club has a flat per month charge in addition to dues that is a steal (about the cost of 6.5 cart fees, great for folks who play 2X or more a week). I'd be okay with that, but would encourage more cart use. I don't want Seniors paying $20+ to use a cart, but i have no problem charging 30 year olds that fee, if we are talking about a course routed with walking being the intended use.
I've continually expressed my opinion that everything in the club should either be self-sustaining or clearly subsidized from general dues (subject to proper governance from the board with substantial input from members). The idea that golf carts subsidize some other operation of a club is crazy. I'm also not a fan of a club operating a ritzy restaurant that only a small % of the members actually use. That kind of thinking will run a clubs' finance into the ground.I agree.
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Believe it or not, there are clubs that require every round to use a cart and then they bill the member a cart fee.I am aware of them.
Even harder to believe, there are clubs that require all rounds (or rounds at prime times and seasons) to use caddies and then the member has to pay the caddie.I know that too, I have caddied at those clubs and played as guests at those type of clubs.
By your reasoning, they ought to just bundle those non-optional cart or caddie fees into the dues, no?Idiotic, but not surprising.
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Chip,
Roger speaks from years of hands-on experience when he says the cart fees more than cover the actual costs (direct and indirect) of making the carts available. So I'm inclined to accept his statement at face value, given that he speaks from knowledge rather than supposition.
Setting a fee, whether zero or some non-zero number, for any optional product or service always serves two purposes. It affect the revenue that is generated and it affects the behavior of those who are deciding whether to use it or not. As such, setting the cart fee at a private club has implications in both areas.
There is no question in my mind that a cart fee of zero will result in more carts being used than a cart fee of $50 per round. The effect on revenue is harder to determine because it's difficult to account for how many members a club would gain or lose by any particular change in what the club charges for a cart.
So it is ultimately either a political (for member-governed clubs) or marketing (for non-member-owned clubs) issue. The club has to decide what level of cart usage it desires and find a cart fee that produces that level of demand. Like all political questions, it does not have a clear-cut or absolute answer. Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what particular solution is chosen.
+1 on Roger's opinions. Any club would love to have a GM who understands the golf finance side as well as he. He knows whereof he speaks.
As to rolling cart fees into the dues,there are some other considerations.
There is the idea that,without any extra charge for a cart,members will be more inclined to come out late in the afternoon for a handful of holes.Then,maybe they stay for drinks and dinner and you catch some revenue you otherwise wouldn't.
So they have to ride to come out at night?
Anything that makes it easier for members to use the club and play more golf would seem to be a good thing,IMO.
Always focusing on revenue
We looked at the idea several years ago and got scared by the wide disparity of rounds of golf throughout the membership. "Free carts" was a great deal for about 25% of the membership,not a big change for about 50% of the membership,but an extra ~ $1000/year for the bottom 25%. Nobody wanted to run the risk of having the bottom 25% walk out the door after realizing how few rounds they were playing.Yes, logical decision making
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At ten dollars a round our club is making a fortune renting push carts.There can't be much maintenance in them.I have exactly the same push cart in my garage but can't use it at the club. I am glad we got the push carts but am starting to get irritated about the fee.I plan to carry my bag when it gets cooler( and when our course reopens) because 10 dollars a pop adds up over a year.
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At ten dollars a round our club is making a fortune renting push carts.There can't be much maintenance in them.I have exactly the same push cart in my garage but can't use it at the club. I am glad we got the push carts but am starting to get irritated about the fee.I plan to carry my bag when it gets cooler( and when our course reopens) because 10 dollars a pop adds up over a year.
It does seem like free money for a course. I know of few riders who would ditch their riding carts for pushcarts, but I know lots of walkers who would be willing to pay a relatively small fee to trade carrying for using a pushcart.
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We looked at the idea several years ago and got scared by the wide disparity of rounds of golf throughout the membership. "Free carts" was a great deal for about 25% of the membership,not a big change for about 50% of the membership,but an extra ~ $1000/year for the bottom 25%. Nobody wanted to run the risk of having the bottom 25% walk out the door after realizing how few rounds they were playing.
JM hit the nail on the head which is why an inclusive cart fee is such a tough policy to adopt.
Let's switch from "riders subsidizing walkers" to "non-golfers subsidizing golfers." Every successful club has about 25% of its membership who pay dues but play very rarely compared to the high volume players. If you include the cart fee as a dues increase that might just be the last nail in the coffin that causes them to resign. Every member who never plays is replaced by a member who plays ALL the time. Great for revenue... bad for course wear and tear. We do not have a revenue issue... we are concerned about accessibility and wear and tear issue (even at only 22k rounds per year).
As to the earlier question... would inclusive carts result in more cart usage? According to the militant walkers in this thread the answer is "no" because they walk for the enjoyment of the game. Do I believe that? Hell no.
And... BCowan... I am not sure what club you belong to (or, as you phrased it, "play at") but it sounds like your owner/management/committee needs some work on the format/price/timing of your tournaments. Club-wide tournaments are the heart and soul of every GOLF club. We have guest-oriented events (member guest, British Open and Masters events)... we have serious golfer events (member member, club championship, match around). They are all sold out and everyone loves them.
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''And... BCowan... I am not sure what club you belong to (or, as you phrased it, "play at") but it sounds like your owner/management/committee needs some work on the format/price/timing of your tournaments. Club-wide tournaments are the heart and soul of every GOLF club. We have guest-oriented events (member guest, British Open and Masters events)... we have serious golfer events (member member, club championship, match around). They are all sold out and everyone loves them.''
Oh really? My club has a 4 year waiting list, so I don't think they have to do anything. If you had any sense you would observe them as a case study. Do you really think those hard core golfers would quit your club if their wasn't all those gatherings you have? Just because they are sold out, doesn't mean you have a member that seldom plays and can't play his or her own course because of some club tourney. Beware of the silent majority. Our club has a member guest and club chump tourney. All one needs.
''Every successful club has about 25% of its membership who pay dues but play very rarely compared to the high volume players. If you include the cart fee as a dues increase that might just be the last nail in the coffin that causes them to resign. Every member who never plays is replaced by a member who plays ALL the time. Great for revenue... bad for course wear and tear. We do not have a revenue issue... we are concerned about accessibility and wear and tear issue (even at only 22k rounds per year).
There are less members of clubs now that play less than 10 times a year than there was 15 years ago in my opinion. Many of those people quit post 08'. You aren't describing a Golf Club, you are describing a Country Club. The market is speaking and it is saying that there is too many Country clubs and not enough Golf Clubs, that focus on just Golf. Also my club unlike my parents (who is doing really well with no debt or assessments) has ALL individual memberships. This enables a larger pie of potential private golfers who would be on the fence if no one in their family played golf. People with limited time, can justify paying for a low key private individual golf membership, but less can for a FAMILY membership one size fits all outdated model! Lavish family vaca vs. Family membership only dad uses.
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As to the earlier question... would inclusive carts result in more cart usage? According to the militant walkers in this thread the answer is "no" because they walk for the enjoyment of the game. Do I believe that? Hell no.
Just because I personally don't use golf carts, I wouldn't pretend for a moment that making carts available at no charge will somehow magically NOT result in more carts being used. For every person like me at a typical club there are ten people who might or might use a cart depending on the cost and their mood of the day.
Which was the point I was making earlier in the thread. The fee that you choose to charge for use a cart does affect your revenue. But it also affects how many carts will be used. Maybe not for every "militant" walker but across the several hundred members of a cluib, you betcha the cost matters.
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I am aware of a club in Texas that switched to including the cart fee in the membership. The number of walkers went down significantly. The last time I was there I as a guest was the only walker in my group and I saw one other walker.It used to be half and half based on my unscientific observation from visiting a few times a year.
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We looked at the idea several years ago and got scared by the wide disparity of rounds of golf throughout the membership. "Free carts" was a great deal for about 25% of the membership,not a big change for about 50% of the membership,but an extra ~ $1000/year for the bottom 25%. Nobody wanted to run the risk of having the bottom 25% walk out the door after realizing how few rounds they were playing.
JM hit the nail on the head which is why an inclusive cart fee is such a tough policy to adopt.
. . .
As to the earlier question... would inclusive carts result in more cart usage? According to the militant walkers in this thread the answer is "no" because they walk for the enjoyment of the game. Do I believe that? Hell no.
Roger, just for the record, it wouldn't affect me one way or another. As you probably know, I walk for exercise, such as walking is, and because I think I play a little better when I walk (the pace suits me). On the other hand, I'll ride if required for an event, if it is just too damn hot to walk, or if I'd be the only one in my group walking. "Enjoyment of the game" is too abstract for me. I guess you'd conclude that I'm not a "militant" walker. Question - if carts were included as a part of everyone's dues, would bag and push cart (including power caddies) storage be included as well? Seems like they should be.
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Despite my frequent participation, I have grown tired of this topic. It's not worth spending the time and energy debating the merits of walking vs. riding vs. pushing/pulling. I'm happy that my club gives me the choice, which means that I choose to walk abd carry. Some members choose to use pushcarts. Most choose to ride. So be it. It's not my place to encourage others how to play golf, just as I expect them to allow me to make my own choice.
That's the last word I have on this subject.
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Despite my frequent participation, I have grown tired of this topic. It's not worth spending the time and energy debating the merits of walking vs. riding vs. pushing/pulling. I'm happy that my club gives me the choice, which means that I choose to walk abd carry. Some members choose to use pushcarts. Most choose to ride. So be it. It's not my place to encourage others how to play golf, just as I expect them to allow me to make my own choice.
That's the last word I have on this subject.
I'm glad you have the freedom to make the choice to stop posting.
Does your club charge to walk and carry on weekend mornings?
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Carl, the club does not charge to walk at any time.
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One bucket of money... members fighting over who has to put more in the bucket... an issue that is pointless to argue.
If your cart revenue is more than your cart expenses (lease, maintenance)... even if you put in EVERYTHING (e.g cart barn depreciation)... than the riders are subsidizing the walkers. This is the case in 99% of the clubs in America.
I have tried for years to get my Board to eliminate our cart fee and make all golf for all members free whether they walk or ride.
You take your cart revenue... divide by the number of members... raise the dues accordingly ($30 a month at my club). No restrictions... no rules. if your back is hurting you ride for free without financial penalty... if you play 9 holes and feel better... turn in the cart and walk the back nine. Unleash the pros stuck behind the counter administering cart fees and free them up to work the range or interact with the members. For those more financially oriented... lay off your assistant pro because the shop work has just been reduced to phone calls, guests and merchandise.
Only the most elite clubs can exist without golf carts. The entire industry needs to wake up and realize they are an operating expense... not a source of revenue.
I was under the impression that at many clubs, particularly those in the for-profit segment, cart operations are a profit center (revenues - costs including allocable overhead and depreciation = profit). To the extent that carts are seen primarily as an operating expense and their costs allocated to all members via dues, walking will be all but eliminated. I frequently walk courses where cart fees are included and I am the rare walker. On more than a couple occasions, the starters couldn't remember anyone except the school kids ever hoofing it. I am a big proponent of pay as you go- you want to ride or take a caddie, pay the real fee.
So which are you advocating here? Is it the "monthly price with no BS" or is it "pay for your own buggy"? That's two opposite things.
P.S. Referring to "collectivist ideology" sounds doofy even when the estimable Lou Duran does it. And you're no Lou Duran. Sounds like something you picked up from listening to Fox News.
"Doofy"? How geeky of you. The problem with many candy-assed Americans and Western Europeans is that they have had it so good for so long that they can't feel being gradually marinated to a boil. ;) Having experienced collectivism first hand, I wouldn't wish it on the reddest, most committed social justice activists. At the inevitable level of misery that it brings, little joy is derived from being "equals" in financial and spiritual destitution (if I am not mistaken, an equal % share of a number approaching zero ain't a hell of a lot). BTW, I do watch Fox News regularly, listen to Rush Limbaugh, and read the WSJ every day it is printed. Oh, and though not a "member", I sympathize with much of what the dreaded Tea Party stands for.
With regard to the other fellow who notes that he disagrees with my posts, thanks for the compliment. It reminds me of the time when a magazine editor told me that the problem with my ratings is that I like golf courses too much (meant as a dig, acknowledged and accepted as a compliment). Who was it that said we are known by the company we keep?
Despite my frequent participation, I have grown tired of this topic. It's not worth spending the time and energy debating the merits of walking vs. riding vs. pushing/pulling. I'm happy that my club gives me the choice, which means that I choose to walk abd carry. Some members choose to use pushcarts. Most choose to ride. So be it. It's not my place to encourage others how to play golf, just as I expect them to allow me to make my own choice.
That's the last word I have on this subject.
Quite right but so terribly uncommon today. The great philosopher Twain once spoke on the matter: “Nothing so needs reforming as other people’s habits. Fanatics will never learn that, though it be written in letters of gold across the sky.".
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''With regard to the other fellow who notes that he disagrees with my posts, thanks for the compliment. It reminds me of the time when a magazine editor told me that the problem with my ratings is that I like golf courses too much (meant as a dig, acknowledged and accepted as a compliment). Who was it that said we are known by the company we keep?''
We agree more than disagree, but I am more consistent in my viewpoints. I have heard a lot of good things about you Lou. We are getting way off topic of the initial post. Walking is region/local specific ala Culture. My friend just moved to the NE were they have walking fees after 11am. I respect their freedom to associate however they like, just don't come crying to me about lack of members.
''thanks for the compliment''
ouch
''Who was it that said we are known by the company we keep''
I'll notify my friends immediately''
Back to original topic
Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?
I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.
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Carl, the club does not charge to walk at any time.
I recently moved to the Providence RI area and noticed that most clubs do charge a fee to carry your own bag. "Morning" from what I've seen is before late afternoon, so if you want to walk, in the early morning, you have to take a caddy, and in shoulder morning, you have to pay a fee. Those that don't think this is a deterrent to drawing more of this generation to the game are delusional. If you play 25 rounds, that's close to an additional $450-500 a year plus the annoyance of being forcibly nickel and dimed.
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Interesting and often cross purpose thread. I have to agree with Roger. I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.
Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh. How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.
BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored. Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive. I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees. Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges. Just be grateful you get the deal you do ;)
Ciao
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Maybe I've missed this or it hasn't been discussed, but does anyone know what the impact of carts and the need for incremental maintenance and attention from the greens crew is?
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Interesting and often cross purpose thread. I have to agree with Roger. I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.
Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh. How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.
BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored. Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive. I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees. Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges. Just be grateful you get the deal you do ;)The course donated $130k back to the university. It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes. That is still a 50k net profit. The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership. Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships. The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board. Yes, you can compare it. We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.
Ciao
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Interesting and often cross purpose thread. I have to agree with Roger. I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.
Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh. How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.
BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored. Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive. I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees. Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges. Just be grateful you get the deal you do ;)The course donated $130k back to the university. It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes. That is still a 50k net profit. The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership. Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships. The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board. Yes, you can compare it. We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.
Ciao
Radrick also never had land/acquistion costs or course/infrastructure/construction costs. Most courses/clubs are not so lucky.
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Interesting and often cross purpose thread. I have to agree with Roger. I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.
Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh. How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.
BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored. Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive. I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees. Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges. Just be grateful you get the deal you do ;)The course donated $130k back to the university. It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes. That is still a 50k net profit. The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership. Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships. The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board. Yes, you can compare it. We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.
Ciao
Radrick also never had land/acquistion costs or course/infrastructure/construction costs. Most courses/clubs are not so lucky.
Mark,
Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years. That argument is null and void now.
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Interesting and often cross purpose thread. I have to agree with Roger. I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.
Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh. How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.
BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored. Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive. I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees. Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges. Just be grateful you get the deal you do ;)The course donated $130k back to the university. It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes. That is still a 50k net profit. The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership. Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships. The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board. Yes, you can compare it. We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.
Ciao
One year does not a history make.
Its not trying to compete with private clubs because Radrick isn't private. Strip away the university affilliation, free land, free building, free course build, a dictated membership and its easy to see why Radrick isn't competing, period. A club like Radrick has the luxury of running much leaner than true privates because it doesn't compete and it has the richest public university in the country backing it. I am not knocking the situation, just saying why its VERY different from other modern clubs. Radrick is basically a benefit for employees. In fact, just to show the difference, at Radrick you buy a season pass, you are not a member. And, one can only book a week in advance - if I remember correctly. No question Radrick is a great deal, but it operates on a different basis than true private clubs.
Ciao
Ciao
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Interesting and often cross purpose thread. I have to agree with Roger. I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.
Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh. How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.
BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored. Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive. I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees. Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges. Just be grateful you get the deal you do ;)The course donated $130k back to the university. It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes. That is still a 50k net profit. The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership. Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships. The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board. Yes, you can compare it. We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.
Ciao
One year does not a history make.
Its not trying to compete with private clubs because Radrick isn't private. Strip away the university affilliation, free land, free building, free course build, a dictated membership and its easy to see why Radrick isn't competing, period. A club like Radrick has the luxury of running much leaner than true privates because it doesn't compete and it has the richest public university in the country backing it. I am not knocking the situation, just saying why its VERY different from other modern clubs. Radrick is basically a benefit for employees. In fact, just to show the difference, at Radrick you buy a season pass, you are not a member. And, one can only book a week in advance - if I remember correctly. No question Radrick is a great deal, but it operates on a different basis than true private clubs.
Ciao
Ciao
Oh really than explain why the UofM courses loses tons of money, it has a rich university backing it up? Yes it is, it is a season pass renewable each year. You pay all of it in Feb! Most private clubs only take tee times a week in advance. Season pass holders do have some say. You have to donate $500 to have access, hence it is quasi private. The alum and faculty make up 90+% of the membership and don't need matthaii members. They just added the donation for access in the last decade or so. When you have just faculty and alum you have a limited market membership. The course is run like a club corp course, with the intent not to waste money. member owned clubs follow other member owned courses without a mind of their own into debt! If radrick was a member owned it could operate just the way it is, if the right people were in leadership. Dues wouldn't go up, faculty pay $500 less than alum. Low key private is under served in the market place period Operating differently than true member owned clubs is a great thing and should be emulated. Part of Radrick's success is true individual membership model (larger pool). Having voting rights to justify $500+ a month dues, i'll pass even if I was a millionaire.
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This has all the look and feel of a great day.
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This has all the look and feel of a great day.
This could be the best post ever.
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This has all the look and feel of a great day.
+1 :D Open tee times on my space
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Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.
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Interesting and often cross purpose thread. I have to agree with Roger. I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.
Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh. How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.
Perverse or not, in a club whose bylaws require a balanced end-of-year budget, cart usage absolutely subsidizes the costs for walkers. Carts usage generates a net profit for the club, plain and simple. Unless a club charges additional fees to carry or pockets a portion of a caddie fee, walking does not generate the same profit. When the end-of-year financial information comes out, that $150,000 or so in profit that the cartballers at my club generate is much appreciated when we balance the expenses with revenue and determine that no dues increase, implementation of a walking fee, or assessment is needed.
Clubs are full of old, retired guys. At my club, we several foursomes of them that play six days a week in carts. Spread over nine months of the year, that’s around $50,000-$75,000 in revenue just from their group of 10-16 that shows up every day. Every time I show up on a Wednesday evening and walk 14 holes before dark while paying $0, I’m thankful that they’re around to help keep the membership affordable through their higher dues, their unpaid service on club committees, their daily patronage of the grill room, and yes, their cart usage. I’m getting a good deal thanks in no small part to the multitude of ways that they’re willing to spend money at the club. Replace those guys with a bunch of walking GCAers (me included), and the result will be far less revenue, greens that always look like they just came off a waffle iron thanks to all the True Linkswear footprints, unraked bunkers that play like CBM would have wanted, and a major push to undertake a costly restoration project so we can have wall-to-wall fairway with one row of sprinklers across the middle of the property. The club would be bankrupt in two years.
Outside of the quote above, though, I'm +1 on all of Sean's comments on this page of this thread that just keeps on giving.
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Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.
I'm +1 on this too.
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
I'm sure anyone with half a brain could eliminate $150k a year in waste. Just imagine if those cartballer seniors didn't have to pay $25 a pop, maybe you would have more of them as members.
When those non tee time clubs have a waiting list, get back to me
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
I'm sure anyone with half a brain could eliminate $150k a year in waste. Just imagine if those cartballer seniors didn't have to pay $25 a pop, maybe you would have more of them as members.
When those non tee time clubs have a waiting list, get back to me
Radrick having a wait list is very similar to only being able to buy Egg McMuffins prior to 10:30 in the morning.
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Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.
Ok let's start with the Royal & Ancient Golf Club. No tee times because they don't have a golf course.....
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
I'm sure anyone with half a brain could eliminate $150k a year in waste. Just imagine if those cartballer seniors didn't have to pay $25 a pop, maybe you would have more of them as members.
When those non tee time clubs have a waiting list, get back to me
Radrick having a wait list is very similar to only being able to by Egg McMuffins prior to 10:30 in the morning.
Wouldn't you like to own a McDonalds.
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.
Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.
Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.
kinda like your course not going bankrupt when it had single line irrigation :)
Picking and choosing what type of members interesting. Who said eliminate cart fees? Surely a club doesn't have to gouge it's own senior members with $25-30 bucks a pop for a cart. The same members that supported the club when there was single line irrigation :D
''Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.'' Really? you must not like to make money.
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Picking and choosing what type of members interesting.
Not that interesting. It's standard practice for private clubs. Maybe someday you'll join one.
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Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.
I'm +1 on this too.
This is one of the "cultural" issues at private clubs. Many have always had tee times, particularly during hours when guest play is allowed. Others have tee times at all times. Still others have no formal tee times at all. For decades, Olympia Fields had no tee times, even, as they say, "on the 4th of July", but a few years back, the club finally instituted tee times after a lot of the younger guys started complaining that they needed to be able to plan exactly when they were playing, probably so they wouldn't be late to watch their four year-old in soccer practice. Then the old guys whined about being hemmed into a set schedule. Eventually, everything settled down and everybody has figured out how to get a game scheduled in the new "culture". In my experience, most of the clubs with no set tee times are old, fuddy-duddy clubs that get very little play. Not that there's anything wrong with that!
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Having voting rights to justify $500+ a month dues, i'll pass even if I was a millionaire.
Hmmm, sounds very similar to the difference between owning a house and renting. So lets just say folks at Radrick rent their golf membership only they are lucky that the start up costs (and capital improvements?) are not included in the rent thanks to a very kind person :D. I think I made my point that comparing a publicly owned facilty to a privately owned club is not very helpful. No need to continue further.
Oh really than explain why the UofM courses loses tons of money, it has a rich university backing it up?
How in the heck can a publicly owned course lose money? The Blue course is operated as benefit to the staff and students. You may as well say the women's basketball team loses money - its meaningless because its not a business.
Jason
I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out :o Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head.
Ciao
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Picking and choosing what type of members interesting.
Not that interesting. It's standard practice for private clubs. Maybe someday you'll join one.
Yeah we are in a recovery right now, I forgot. Nah, to my friends I am already a member of one. The in-exclusive process weeds out the folks I try and avoid.
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All these old men playing golf into their 80's is a new phenomenon. I started playing golf in 68 and they just weren't around in these numbers. Sure there were some outliers who somehow escaped the great wars and antiquated health care but now they outnumber the youth. I'm quickly becoming one myself and while we can be a nuisance we shall be tolerated or we will bring all of you down with us.
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Having voting rights to justify $500+ a month dues, i'll pass even if I was a millionaire.
Hmmm, sounds very similar to the difference between owning a house and renting. So lets just say folks at Radrick rent their golf membership only they are lucky that the start up costs (and capital improvements?) are not included in the rent thanks to a very kind person :D. I think I made my point that comparing a publicly owned facilty to a privately owned club is not very helpful. No need to continue further. You and I both know the golden age courses have been paid off for 50+ years, so your point is null and void. No, you re-iterated the typical private club.
Oh really than explain why the UofM courses loses tons of money, it has a rich university backing it up?
How in the heck can a publicly owned course lose money? The Blue course is operated as benefit to the staff and students. You may as well say the women's basketball team loses money - its meaningless because its not a business.
It costs the Univ. Money. It is set up as a non-profit. Football donates money back to the univ., Woman's softball more than likely losses money. Do you understand now? Many different types of non-profits.
Jason
I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out :o Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head. At the true private equity club I grew up at, one of the guys in my father's sat. morning group dropped out, due to wife playing a lot more and the cart fees were adding up due to them playing everyday. So there you lose your monthly dues by gouging your members with absorbent cart fees. Only you have been kicked by a mule!
Ciao
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I'd say something on the order of 60-70% of the target market for private club memberships in my local area are cart users who wouldn't even look at a club that had no carts available. In fact, I'm not sure the true percentage isn't higher than that.
So by my definition of "profit" I'd say that golf carts produce a clear profit for private clubs. Given that only one course in town has anything close to a waiting list and most clubs are far below their full subscription numbers, nobody could afford to not offer golf carts and thereby turn away the vast majority of potential members.
Setting the exact cart fee is an internal matter that has to be reckoned on an individual-club basis. But you can't just plop down a walking-only golf course in the middle of a Sunbelt suburb and expect it to even get off the ground.
Anything that you can stay in business by offering and that you'd go out of business by not offering is certainly "profitable".
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I'd say something on the order of 60-70% of the target market for private club memberships in my local area are cart users who wouldn't even look at a club that had no carts available. In fact, I'm not sure the true percentage isn't higher than that.
So by my definition of "profit" I'd say that golf carts produce a clear profit for private clubs. Given that only one course in town has anything close to a waiting list and most clubs are far below their full subscription numbers, nobody could afford to not offer golf carts and thereby turn away the vast majority of potential members.
Setting the exact cart fee is an internal matter that has to be reckoned on an individual-club basis. But you can't just plop down a walking-only golf course in the middle of a Sunbelt suburb and expect it to even get off the ground.
Anything that you can stay in business by offering and that you'd go out of business by not offering is certainly "profitable".
Who is advocating a walking only club? I agree with everything else you said. When people say riders subsidize walkers, it is beyond stupid of them to gouge their own cart riders imho. A walking fee could piss off the 10-15% that walk and they quit. Lower cart fees could stimulate more riding rounds if you are focusing on cart revenue at a club.
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Jason
I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out :o Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head.
Sean, they generate a profit at my club, and I think buried somewhere back on page 2 or 3 of this thread was some data that showed they almost always generate a profit for a club that has them. In the absence of any real data to support the contention, I’m considering the notion that carts cost more in expenses than they recoup through revenue to be...
(https://i.imgflip.com/aif0v.jpg)
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.
Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.
As a senior member myself, I object to your characterization!
The average age of the members in private clubs is probably 60+ and rising.
I still have to be persuaded that carts are a net profit center. I don't think maintenance of cart paths and compacted soil, or the storage building, are properly accounted for in a true analysis of the costs.
EDIT: Sorry Sean, missed your post. We think alike on this issue.
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Bill,
What proportion of your membership would you lose if you had no carts? I'd guess for Pensacola CC it would be approximately 100%. Give or take ;-)
So regardless of accounting truth or fiction, carts are as much as part of the infrastructure as having restrooms or electrical and water utilities. Without the carts, the club ceases to exist.
Pricing cart fees is therefore a political issue and not an accounting one, by my thinking.
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At the true private equity club I grew up at, one of the guys in my father's sat. morning group dropped out, due to wife playing a lot more and the cart fees were adding up due to them playing everyday. So there you lose your monthly dues by gouging your members with absorbent cart fees. [color]
Ciao
47 posts and gallons of red and blue ink to find out that your world view was shaped during your formative years by Joe the Plumber who couldn't hack the cart fees. Perhaps an on-line adult education course in Concision 101 is in order...
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Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.
+1
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At the true private equity club I grew up at, one of the guys in my father's sat. morning group dropped out, due to wife playing a lot more and the cart fees were adding up due to them playing everyday. So there you lose your monthly dues by gouging your members with absorbent cart fees. [color]
Ciao
47 posts and gallons of red and blue ink to find out that your world view was shaped during your formative years by Joe the Plumber who couldn't hack the cart fees. Perhaps an on-line adult education course at University of Phoenix in Concision 101 is in order...
Jud, bringing politics into this are we? Your educational back ground doesn't make up for your lack of common sense. I've been around the block. Funny thing is, the course i grew up is in the best financial shape of every club in the area it is in. Coming from a guy who drives 5 hours to play his home course, lol. $5,000 in cart fees adds up in Flyover country.
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This has all the look and feel of a great day.
This could be the best post ever.
Come on Scott. You can add to this post. Tell us how riding carts are viewed in the industry and how much they add to the bottom line. When I was looking at it in Texas many years ago, my recollection is that most courses do well over 80% of rounds on carts and profit margins were in the 60-70%. Fully allocating barn, cart paths, and wear and tear, carts probably have a larger net profit margin than even soft goods. Consider the revenue that would be lost after inclement weather (a purpose of the hated cart path) as well as the fixed cost nature of the fleet, and it is no wonder that club managers seek to maximize usage.
It behooves me how an entrepreneur like The Yank can't tell the difference between an item that commands incremental revenue at most courses and something that only adds costs. Why pray tell would a manager mess with a cart fleet if it didn't add value?
A reason that some riders look down at walkers is because in relative terms they don't add as much to the financial well-being of the club. Scott may have some data on this, but a manager at a former club told me that the average monthly bill of his active riders dwarfed those of his active walkers, and by considerably more than could be accounted for by cart usage (F&B, balls and equipment, soft goods, etc.). While I know that most of us are calling for flexibility as opposed to banning riding carts, perhaps a more correct attitude would be one of gratitude for those who spend generously at our clubs.
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It wasn't all that long ago that many pros owned the carts. The clubs saw how much money they were giving away and being a pro was never again so sweet.
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$5,000 in cart fees adds up in Flyover country.
This sounds like a bargain for 200 rounds of golf. So how do you suggest the club replace that 5k? Oh yeah, more members, less maintenance and tee times. Got it.
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Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.
IMHO perhaps the most outrageous post I've read in my dozen years here.
Bogey
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Bill,
What proportion of your membership would you lose if you had no carts? I'd guess for Pensacola CC it would be approximately 100%. Give or take ;-)
So regardless of accounting truth or fiction, carts are as much as part of the infrastructure as having restrooms or electrical and water utilities. Without the carts, the club ceases to exist.
Pricing cart fees is therefore a political issue and not an accounting one, by my thinking.
I think it's both - apples and oranges. Whether carts are profitable or not depends on revenue vs. expense. Cart fees are the revenue. No matter how you look at it, I'd guess that if a club charged $4.00 per player cart fee for 18 holes, you'd be hard pressed to show a cart "profit." On the other hand, a friend of mine belongs to a Naples, Fla. area course that charges members $25 per person for a cart for 18 holes. Every round my friend and his wife play together, which is a lot, riding, costs them $50 (in addition to their hefty initiation fee and very hefty dues). Seems like an odd arrangement to me, but my guess is that this club shows a cart profit on its books. On the other hand, the expense side is tricky. What expenses do you allocate to the cart column? As discussed above, there are all kinds of possible charges. I have no idea how various clubs do their cart accounting, if they do it at all, but what they show as "profit," if they do, is an accounting issue -- both on the revenue side and on the expense side. (Caveat - I am not an accountant, but for me accounting is all fiction. The idea seems to be that the presentation of the numbers can be useful if the rules -- man-made -- under which the numbers are presented are reasonable, clear, and consistently followed. Sounds like a good idea to me.)
In the USA it would be a very rare club that could exist without carts. They have become part of the game. So, as Brent says: "carts are as much as part of the infrastructure as having restrooms or electrical and water utilities. Without the carts, the club ceases to exist."
On the other hand, how the club decides to price carts, or anything else at the club for that matter, is 100% a political (i.e. policy), decision.
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$5,000 in cart fees adds up in Flyover country.
This sounds like a bargain for 200 rounds of golf. So how do you suggest the club replace that 5k? Oh yeah, more members, less maintenance and tee times. Got it.
Yeah, from an elitist perspective living in Chicago it does sound like a bargin. Again you keep proving your ignorance. Explain how the club replaces a $5,000 a year in dues from a member that was a member for 25 years? If a membership isn't 90+%- full, they might want to consider keeping existing members? It doesn't require more maint. the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for. Do clubs have senior membership fees? yeah. Why no senior cart fee? Oh the terrible idea of having to make a tee time, the inconvenience of logging on and typing your name it. wow.
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...the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for.
B,
You just make this shit up as you go along, don't you?
At my club the 65, 70, 75 year old guys either walk every round or most rounds. It's the 30, 40, 50 year olds that always take carts when they play. It's not an age thing, it's a generational thing.
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...the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for.
B,
You just make this shit up as you go along, don't you?
At my club the 65, 70, 75 year old guys either walk every round or most rounds. It's the 30, 40, 50 year olds that always take carts when they play. It's not an age thing, it's a generational thing.
Brent,
My mom's 67 and walks 4 days a weak with a 50 deg curvature in her back with a trolley. Many of the members walk into their 70s and 80's but some switch to carts around 65 and 70. I have no problem charging 30 year olds $25 for carts, but I do for members that are at the age of needing them. $10 it should be for 65+ inho. The gentlemen i was referring too had diabetes, do I need to write a 3 page short story for you? I agree with the generational thing.
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Here it is in black and white: Radrick Farms reservation policy. Works more like a Russian bread line than a private club tee sheet.
http://radrick.umich.edu/?page_id=139
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11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?
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...the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for.
B,
You just make this shit up as you go along, don't you?
At my club the 65, 70, 75 year old guys either walk every round or most rounds. It's the 30, 40, 50 year olds that always take carts when they play. It's not an age thing, it's a generational thing.
Brent,
My mom's 67 and walks 4 days a weak with a 50 deg curvature in her back with a trolley. Many of the members walk into their 70s and 80's but some switch to carts around 65 and 70. I have no problem charging 30 year olds $25 for carts, but I do for members that are at the age of needing them. $10 it should be for 65+ inho. The gentlemen i was referring too had diabetes, do I need to write a 3 page short story for you? I agree with the generational thing.
"Don't you people have HOMES!"
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11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?
Paul,
Obviously it is a possible to have a viable golf club in UK that isn't built around ubiquitous riding carts. I've seen it myself, obviously that "model" works.
If you had spent even as much time in USA as the few weeks I've spent in UK you'd know that most places the same "model" is a total non-starter.
So first, you have to account for riding carts as the dominant "model". Then you have to fit in the push cart thing somewhere between the riding carts, the no-push-cart walkers and (at a very few clubs) the caddie thing.
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.
Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.
As a senior member myself, I object to your characterization!
Bill, I’m sure you smell fine and your war stories are always a joy to hear. It’s just a numbers thing. Too many senior members leads to certain issues, just as too many members my age leads to a locker room full of manscaping products, a bar stocked with 500 different shitty microbrewed IPAs, and clamoring for each cart to have its own wi-fi hotspot.
Ben, if you're genuinely offering to write a 3 page short story, I would love to read it.
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11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?
Go ahead. Teach US! (Why do I sense that your comment has little to do with golf?)
Oh, and as for whether no club with tee times is worth joining: Sacre bleu! Zut alors! Balderdash and humbug! (I'm pretty sure I learned all of those expressions from the rest of the planet.)
Dan
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11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?
Go ahead. Teach US! (Why do I sense that your comment has little to do with golf?)
Oh, and as for whether no club with tee times is worth joining: Sacre bleu! Zut alors! Balderdash and humbug! (I'm pretty sure I learned all of those expressions from the rest of the planet.)
Dan
I like tee times in a text message world. Pick a time, reserve it, text it, play it.
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Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years. That argument is null and void now.
Thanks, I did not realize 1965 was the Golden Age of Golf Courses.
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Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years. That argument is null and void now.
Thanks, I did not realize 1965 was the Golden Age of Golf Courses.
Wow, let me help you out. The land was donated in around 1965, most Golden Age courses were paid off by 1965, hence a level playing field. Do I need to tell you when the Golden Age was?
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How did clubs survive prior to carts??? :D
Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.
Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.
As a senior member myself, I object to your characterization!
Bill, I’m sure you smell fine and your war stories are always a joy to hear. It’s just a numbers thing. Too many senior members leads to certain issues, just as too many members my age leads to a locker room full of manscaping products, a bar stocked with 500 different shitty microbrewed IPAs, and clamoring for each cart to have its own wi-fi hotspot.
Ben, if you're genuinely offering to write a 3 page short story, I would love to read it.
That was sarcasm Jason. Spontaneous order works just fine. I'm sure you would rather have assessments and or dues raised to meet your quotas. The beautiful thing about my club is there are ford rangers parked next to Tesla's! Our in-exlusiveness keeps the wannabes out! 500 IPA's that is tragic.
Back to original topic
Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?
I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.
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Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years. That argument is null and void now.
Thanks, I did not realize 1965 was the Golden Age of Golf Courses.
Wow, let me help you out. The land was donated in around 1965, most Golden Age courses were paid off by 1965, hence a level playing field. Do I need to tell you when the Golden Age was?
Let me help you out with this old saying from LBJ:
"You ain't learning nothing when you're talking."
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Jason
I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out :o Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head.
Sean, they generate a profit at my club, and I think buried somewhere back on page 2 or 3 of this thread was some data that showed they almost always generate a profit for a club that has them. In the absence of any real data to support the contention, I’m considering the notion that carts cost more in expenses than they recoup through revenue to be...
(https://i.imgflip.com/aif0v.jpg)
Perhaps its your wording. Profit is incorrect. The club has a choice of
1. Offering the SERVICE of carts
2. if the members want the SERVICE, what will the SERVICE cost and how will the members pay for the SERVICE?
The club doesn't net a profit from anything unless its a business doing well. My argument has always been about private members' clubs. It would be especially difficult to determine the so called profit if the books aren't organized in a manner to determine the true cost of carts. There may be some clubs which itemize the cart barn, insurance, cart staff salary/benefits/pensions contributions, cart path build and maintenance, damage to the course, cart hire and maintenance etc. Until someone can show me how all the numbers work, I don't think it is unreasonable to doubt that carts are a so called profit centre at private clubs. But then, it doesn't really matter if the members want the service. All you are quibling about is how to pay for the service. There are loads of ways to go about doing this and no matter the model, someone gets screwed. Despite your mythical myth busting which magically did away with the issue producing any numbers - I bet it is far more likely to be the walking golfer who gets screwed. Thats fine too if he is willing to subsidize riders. Its quite clear that many clubs would struggle to survive without offering carts as a service so thats the life of many US walkers who want to go private.
Ciao
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In my part of the world, Sean, a walking golfer doesn't have the luxury of worrying about whether the fees charged for carts exceed the cost of the carts. We have to settle for finding a club which actually allows us to walk at all. Most courses (both private and public) require the use of carts. Either always or at weekends.
Perhaps that why I've lost interest over the years in the question of "profit" related to carts. When one has to beg to be allowed at the table at all, one tends not to complain about the seating arrangement or how the bill is split.
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In my part of the world, Sean, a walking golfer doesn't have the luxury of worrying about whether the fees charged for carts exceed the cost of the carts. We have to settle for finding a club which actually allows us to walk at all. Most courses (both private and public) require the use of carts. Either always or at weekends.
Perhaps that why I've lost interest over the years in the question of "profit" related to carts. When one has to beg to be allowed at the table at all, one tends not to complain about the seating arrangement or how the bill is split.
Hence my comment Its quite clear that many clubs would struggle to survive without offering carts as a service so thats the life of many US walkers who want to go private.
Still, I would like to see the real and true numbers on so called cart profit for private clubs. I am not saying there isn't a revenue stream to be made, but I if I had to bet on I would put my fiver on carts not being a positive revenue stream. But that shouldn't be surprising if one looks at carts as a service, just like all the other crap at clubs.
Ciao
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In my part of the world, Sean, a walking golfer doesn't have the luxury of worrying about whether the fees charged for carts exceed the cost of the carts. We have to settle for finding a club which actually allows us to walk at all. Most courses (both private and public) require the use of carts. Either always or at weekends.
Perhaps that why I've lost interest over the years in the question of "profit" related to carts. When one has to beg to be allowed at the table at all, one tends not to complain about the seating arrangement or how the bill is split.
Hence my comment Its quite clear that many clubs would struggle to survive without offering carts as a service so thats the life of many US walkers who want to go private.
Still, I would like to see the real and true numbers on so called cart profit for private clubs. I am not saying there isn't a revenue stream to be made, but I if I had to bet on I would put my fiver on carts not being a positive revenue stream. But that shouldn't be surprising if one looks at carts as a service, just like all the other crap at clubs.
Ciao
Sean:
Have you read Roger Wolfe's earlier posts in this thread, including ##'s 73, 48, 76? He has a lot of hard numbers in those posts -- and is only charging $14 for a cart.
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Brent (Since Brent was the only one to respond in a sensible manner),
My limited (very limited) knowledge of US golf tells me that the UK model would cause all sorts of complaints. Really, that's the gist of my point. Unless the attitude of the average American golfer can be tweaked, seemingly you're stuck with an unsustainable model which is fine in boom times and a recipe for rust in the bad times.
Now, genuinely, I'd be interested to learn why you simply can't have carts, hired trolleys, golfer's own trolleys and walkers all coexisting happily. You pay an annual membership fee and thereafter, should you wish to hire something on the day, you do so. Rounds take much the same amount of time regardless of mode of transport and quicker players are called through by slower players anyway. It ain't rocket science.
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At my private (member owned) club there are riding carts, walk-and-carry golfers and walk-and-pushcart golfers quite happily coexisting. In fact, that is a very common arrangement indeed. Push carts for hire are a slightly less common variation but not at all uncommon.
The original poster is asking about how to create acceptance of this very common arrangement by clubs which consider push carts totally off limits for whatever reason. I personally have no idea how a member of such a club would go about convincing his fellow members to accept push carts. To me, their presence so commonplace it makes me unable to conceive of why they would be considered unacceptable in the first place.
I know country club members are stereotypically reactionary and prone to silly rules. But that's just a stereotype and IMO can't really explain why something as simple as a trolley to carry ones golf bag would be disallowed completely. I have to figure such rules of protecting "turf" of some form or another. Maybe caddies. Maybe riding cart fees. Maybe something else I just can't fathom.
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(I'm being facetious here)
I was playing on Sunday morning behind a foursome. Two were carrying, and two were using push carts.
I was so deeply offended that the "look" of the push carts that I decided to complain to management.
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To people who think push carts are a social offense - read above and see just how stupid that opinion is.
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Thank you Brent for your intelligent and informative response.
So, as I understand it, the problem is an age old one of some people having more money than class. They may not be allowed to dictate buggy policies over here but we certainly have more than our fair share of them and, as seemingly may to be the case in America, they tend to be drawn to those clubs with a more gauche persona.
I guess the only way to go is to tap away at that perception. You're clearly going to continue to have people wanting to do what they perceive to be 'the thing to do' so you have to get them to believe that buggies are laughable, at least for the able bodied. Easier said than done, I know.
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Thank you Brent for your intelligent and informative response.
So, as I understand it, the problem is an age old one of some people having more money than class. They may not be allowed to dictate buggy policies over here but we certainly have more than our fair share of them and, as seemingly may to be the case in America, they tend to be drawn to those clubs with a more gauche persona.
I guess the only way to go is to tap away at that perception. You're clearly going to continue to have people wanting to do what they perceive to be 'the thing to do' so you have to get them to believe that buggies are laughable, at least for the able bodied. Easier said than done, I know.
Wow it only took 12 pages to get back to the original post on the stigma of trollys/pull carts and how to remove it. No real answers though.
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My club, Victoria National, accepted trolleys as another form of play last year. I explained exactly how earlier in the thread. It is the militant walkers who continue the argument.
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
My club is one. Brookside G&CC in Columbus, OH. Of course, we have tee times also, so perhaps that makes us unworthy of consideration in your eyes. We have caddies available, but they are not mandatory. The club owns push carts, but they are available only when riding carts are not permitted (due to weather). I don't like this policy, but it is a very small complaint (for me) at an otherwise terrific club.
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Not trying to knock clubs with tee times, it just isn't a positive to my personal utility function. The ability to play at a moment's notice subject to schedules and/or weather is a big plus in my mind. It also implies a certain lack of crowding on the course. This might be another difference between golf clubs and country clubs.
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying. many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available. All of those are non trolleys.
Brandywine in Toledo has no caddie program, allows carrying and no trolleys.
The best club's model would be Barton Hills, they have a caddie program and people can carry and or use a trolley whenever they want.
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying. many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available. All of those are non trolleys.
Then why is the question only in relation to push carts? Why not ask why carrying and/or push carts are not allowed at all times?
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
The best club's model would be Barton Hills, they have a caddie program and people can carry and or use a trolley whenever they want.
That is exactly what Victoria National has going on.
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying. many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available. All of those are non trolleys.
Then why is the question only in relation to push carts? Why not ask why carrying and/or push carts are not allowed at all times?
There are many clubs that allow carrying when caddy isn't there, but don't allow a trolley. I could name a ton.
Holy Toledo, I think I agree with you on 2nd thought. what about clubs with small caddie programs, are trolleys welcome?
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Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.
Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.
For $1200 you can take a trolley
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying. many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available. All of those are non trolleys.
Then why is the question only in relation to push carts? Why not ask why carrying and/or push carts are not allowed at all times?
There are many clubs that allow carrying when caddy isn't there, but don't allow a trolley. I could name a ton.
Question: Does anyone know how many USA (1) private clubs and (2) public courses have real (not just nominal) caddy programs, and the percentages those are of all the clubs/courses in the respective categories? (I have no idea.) This is before asking questions about "mandatory" caddies, etc. Those are separate questions.
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Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.
Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.
For $1200 you can take a trolley
No, for $1,200 you can take either a cart or a trolley. You can also choose to pay a individual fee each time you take either. I prefer the single fee system because I play a ton and some days like to play an odd amount of holes. I own my own cart at another course where I am a member and the $1200 per year unlimited lease is a better deal than BYOMoT.
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Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.
Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.
For $1200 you can take a trolley
No, for $1,200 you can take either a cart or a trolley. You can also choose to pay a individual fee each time you take either. I prefer the single fee system because I play a ton and some days like to play an odd amount of holes. I own my own cart at another course where I am a member and the $1200 per year unlimited lease is a better deal than BYOMoT.
BYOMoT could be better for some, but why mandatory? Are battery operated trolleys provided by the club? Shouldn't we have a choice at our own club jkava?
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Let me add this. Victoria also gives me one unaccompanied foursome to donate to the charity of my choice. When you take that into account the yearly cart fee may as well be a wash. We are partners trying to sustain a great club full of good friends. Neither side gives a damn about picking eithers pocket.
Nothing is mandatory. Play however you can imagine short of using a yak. BYOMoT is bring your own mode of transportation. I prefer the club have my chosen mode stored, cleaned and trained at the club.
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Let me add this. Victoria also gives me one unaccompanied foursome to donate to the charity of my choice. When you take that into account the yearly cart fee may as well be a wash. We are partners trying to sustain a great club full of good friends. Neither side gives a damn about picking eithers pocket.
Nothing is mandatory. Play however you can imagine short of using a yak. BYOMoT is bring your own mode of transportation. I prefer the club have my chosen mode stored, cleaned and trained at the club.
Jkava, I always figured you were a charitable man. I hope no one is picking anyone's pocket.
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This is a really fun thread.... I think a very important point is that 99 percent of clubs cannot exist without golf carts plus the carts need to be operational. Our club historically leased carts (due to their importance) and purchased maintenance equipment.
Five years ago, with a lot of hard work and epic board meetings, I convinced the Board that mowing equipment should be treated just like the golf carts. We could not exist without it and it had to be operational... therefore we began converting all mowing equipment to operating leases (fairway units, rough units, tee/approach units, walk mowers/utility vehicles) which became part of the dues structure. I don't think you see anyone charging a fee to pay for the maintenance equipment leases... maybe you could count divots or... god forbid... charge a players' fee for EVERYONE who played the golf course. Maybe you could charge a fee based on handicap because better players leave more ball marks since they hit so many greens?
Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart? Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary? Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers? It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.
There is something very special about being able to join a private club and walk for free. As one of the very few GM's who also belong to another private club, I really learned how special that was. At Gaston CC (close to Charlotte) I walked 80 percent of the time and truly enjoyed every minute of it. I am no longer a member at GCC and I miss it dearly. However, I remain a non resident member at Mimosa Hills about 75 miles away. I ride at Mimosa (usually playing 36 since the drive is so long). The knees are aching but i hope to be walking up there again as much as possible in the near future. The ability to walk for free is a sacred thing that should be preserved.
Perhaps the best compromise is, during the budgeting process, calculate the true cost of your fleet of golf carts. Take that number and divide it by your historical number of "cart rounds." The result should be your cart fee. Therefore, the riders are only paying for the carts... the walkers are not being subsidized by profit made from excessive cart fees... everyone is happy. I know our cart fee, a paltry $14 to begin with, would drop below $10 if we adopted this policy. I would have to somehow replace the lost revenue... most likely via a dues increase. The next year we reassess... perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper... the cart fee goes even lower since the fixed cost of my cart fleet doesn't change.
It surely is a fun argument. The GM in me says to include them as an operating expense. The golfer in me says find the right compromise so everyone is happy and paying their fair share. I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.
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'' I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.''
You somewhat contradicted yourself. I implied that if a club's culture wants younger members walking they could influence that with higher cart fees.
''perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper''
supply side economics....
Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart? Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary? Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers? It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.
This is beyond a ridiculous statement!
This is a really fun thread....
+1
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'' I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.''
You just contradicted yourself.
''perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper''
supply side economics....
Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart? Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary? Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers? It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.
This is beyond a ridiculous statement!
This is a really fun thread....
+1
I am not going to respond to your comments above in little red italics... this is the best I can do.
1. I am not contradicting myself... I am agreeing with you that I feel bad for the old and hobbled folks who have to use a cart but still enjoy the game. They should NOT be soaked with $25 cart fees. But they should pay their fair share of the expense related to the cart fleet... not a penny more.
2. If you charge less for a cart... more might use them. Not sure what your "supply side economics" comment means. I just run a golf club and know that when we lower a fee for anything (guest fees or cart fees)... the volume increases.
3. Golf Carts are on operating expense by definition since your club cannot exist without them. Please elaborate how this is ridiculous.
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1. We agree for the most part, I amended my earlier remarks (depends on culture of the club)
2. Bingo, we agree again.
3. A club can't exist without mowers, isn't the same thing as golf carts. Determining what percentage are walkers at a club is crucial. Treating carts the same as a mower is a little disingenuous in my opinion. ''why are we obsessed with charging for golf carts''
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This is a really fun thread.... I think a very important point is that 99 percent of clubs cannot exist without golf carts plus the carts need to be operational. Our club historically leased carts (due to their importance) and purchased maintenance equipment.
Five years ago, with a lot of hard work and epic board meetings, I convinced the Board that mowing equipment should be treated just like the golf carts. We could not exist without it and it had to be operational... therefore we began converting all mowing equipment to operating leases (fairway units, rough units, tee/approach units, walk mowers/utility vehicles) which became part of the dues structure. I don't think you see anyone charging a fee to pay for the maintenance equipment leases... maybe you could count divots or... god forbid... charge a players' fee for EVERYONE who played the golf course. Maybe you could charge a fee based on handicap because better players leave more ball marks since they hit so many greens?
Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart? Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary? Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers? It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.
There is something very special about being able to join a private club and walk for free. As one of the very few GM's who also belong to another private club, I really learned how special that was. At Gaston CC (close to Charlotte) I walked 80 percent of the time and truly enjoyed every minute of it. I am no longer a member at GCC and I miss it dearly. However, I remain a non resident member at Mimosa Hills about 75 miles away. I ride at Mimosa (usually playing 36 since the drive is so long). The knees are aching but i hope to be walking up there again as much as possible in the near future. The ability to walk for free is a sacred thing that should be preserved.
Perhaps the best compromise is, during the budgeting process, calculate the true cost of your fleet of golf carts. Take that number and divide it by your historical number of "cart rounds." The result should be your cart fee. Therefore, the riders are only paying for the carts... the walkers are not being subsidized by profit made from excessive cart fees... everyone is happy. I know our cart fee, a paltry $14 to begin with, would drop below $10 if we adopted this policy. I would have to somehow replace the lost revenue... most likely via a dues increase. The next year we reassess... perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper... the cart fee goes even lower since the fixed cost of my cart fleet doesn't change.
It surely is a fun argument. The GM in me says to include them as an operating expense. The golfer in me says find the right compromise so everyone is happy and paying their fair share. I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.
Roger, that is an elegant solution. I really think a rider has to pay for the use of a riding cart while the w
alker walks for free, but the lower the cart fee the better.
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But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.
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This is a really fun thread.... I think a very important point is that 99 percent of clubs cannot exist without golf carts plus the carts need to be operational. Our club historically leased carts (due to their importance) and purchased maintenance equipment.
Five years ago, with a lot of hard work and epic board meetings, I convinced the Board that mowing equipment should be treated just like the golf carts. We could not exist without it and it had to be operational... therefore we began converting all mowing equipment to operating leases (fairway units, rough units, tee/approach units, walk mowers/utility vehicles) which became part of the dues structure. I don't think you see anyone charging a fee to pay for the maintenance equipment leases... maybe you could count divots or... god forbid... charge a players' fee for EVERYONE who played the golf course. Maybe you could charge a fee based on handicap because better players leave more ball marks since they hit so many greens?
Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart? Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary? Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers? It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.
There is something very special about being able to join a private club and walk for free. As one of the very few GM's who also belong to another private club, I really learned how special that was. At Gaston CC (close to Charlotte) I walked 80 percent of the time and truly enjoyed every minute of it. I am no longer a member at GCC and I miss it dearly. However, I remain a non resident member at Mimosa Hills about 75 miles away. I ride at Mimosa (usually playing 36 since the drive is so long). The knees are aching but i hope to be walking up there again as much as possible in the near future. The ability to walk for free is a sacred thing that should be preserved.
Perhaps the best compromise is, during the budgeting process, calculate the true cost of your fleet of golf carts. Take that number and divide it by your historical number of "cart rounds." The result should be your cart fee. Therefore, the riders are only paying for the carts... the walkers are not being subsidized by profit made from excessive cart fees... everyone is happy. I know our cart fee, a paltry $14 to begin with, would drop below $10 if we adopted this policy. I would have to somehow replace the lost revenue... most likely via a dues increase. The next year we reassess... perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper... the cart fee goes even lower since the fixed cost of my cart fleet doesn't change.
It surely is a fun argument. The GM in me says to include them as an operating expense. The golfer in me says find the right compromise so everyone is happy and paying their fair share. I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.
Roger, that is an elegant solution. I really think a rider has to pay for the use of a riding cart while the w
alker walks for free, but the lower the cart fee the better.
Bill,
I've always been impressed with your ability to reason and make great points in a simplistic manner. lower cart fees so the walker isn't blamed. :)
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But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.
Mike,
Yes, I do. As long as they allow you to bring your trolley with no charge, it shouldn't matter.
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But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.
Compared to the price of a martini it is not excessive at all. How humiliating must it be to have a bag boy pull your trolley out of your trunk, mount your bag and wheel it down to the staging area as you go inside to put on your shoes. Come on man, fork over ten bucks and save everyone the trouble and let the club buy, maintain, clean and store your trolley. Why not stop in the barrio and pick up your own caddie? Truth be known, the only caddie I have used this year was my wife. I would far more prefer to bring my own caddie than haul around my personal trolley in the bed of my pick up truck.
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I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts. I can't name 1.
My club is one. Brookside G&CC in Columbus, OH. Of course, we have tee times also, so perhaps that makes us unworthy of consideration in your eyes. We have caddies available, but they are not mandatory. The club owns push carts, but they are available only when riding carts are not permitted (due to weather). I don't like this policy, but it is a very small complaint (for me) at an otherwise terrific club.
My club is another. You can walk anytime you want, but never with a push cart. If you want to walk on weekend mornings, you either have to take a caddie or pay a fee (equal to the cart fee) to walk and carry. There's no fee any other time, but again, you can never use a push cart.
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Charge $100 minus a dollar per degree in Farenheit for anyone under 70 who doesn't have a doctor's note to take a riding cart. If you take a cart on a 50 degree day it's $50, but if you ride in Phoenix on a 110 degree day you get $10 off at the snack bar! Also takes pressure of the Saturday morning rush before the mercury rises. Charge 50 cents/pound. Charge $5/hour. Sponsor a speed golf event with mandatory push carts. Make able bodied members caddie for the caddie tournament. Think of all the food and beverage revenue you'll get from walkers who need somewhere to put their food and drinks. Get combo push cart/ baby strollers. Get electric push carts hooked up directly to the wind turbines off your coastal holes. Sell the naming rights to your club to a cart company. Sell advertising space on your golf carts so they all look like massively decaled Nascar cars.
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We can't use our own trolleys. I have the exact sun mountain we use at the club but it can't come on the property. And I spend plenty at the club. It is like the 5 buck diet coke in the mini bar. I won't drink it out of principle even if client is paying.
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Looking at Roger's figures, I get a total cost of £71,000 per year for carts with no allowance for staff, maintenance of the path, damage to the course, storage building, pension, insurance etc.
£71,000 divided by 10,000 cart rounds = $7 a round, again without including serious extras which likely pushes that price up. Roger budgets $25 a member per month which comes out to $150,000 per year for the club. But he says the carts only cost $71,000 a year to operate. Why is the membership being charged an extra $79,000 a year ($158 per member) in the name of carts? One could just as easily charge the members $12 a month and say the cart system does not subsidize the walkers. Hell, going on Roger's figures, why not just charge the members who use carts $7 a round (Rogers claim of the true cost per round) for the service rather than adding $25 a month per member? Anybody can claim carts as a revenue source if the members are charged twice what they cost. To me, this is just shuffling figures in budget columns then claiming riders subsidize walkers - it isn't accurate. Sure, then dues need to go up by presumably by amount lost in carts, but at least one gets a true reflection of what things cost so when it comes time to cut the budget there are real figures to work with. All that said, I am a firm believer that clubs have a core operation(s) and the add-ons are services. If the members want the services they figure out how to pay for them. Some clubs like the all-in approach and some prefer the extra services be charged on a user basis. Roger obviously knows his membership and believes they don't care if they are over-charged for carts because the breakdown per month isn't much anyway. As a member of a club, I would much rather know the true operational figures.
Ciao
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But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.
Compared to the price of a martini it is not excessive at all. How humiliating must it be to have a bag boy pull your trolley out of your trunk, mount your bag and wheel it down to the staging area as you go inside to put on your shoes. Come on man, fork over ten bucks and save everyone the trouble and let the club buy, maintain, clean and store your trolley. Why not stop in the barrio and pick up your own caddie? Truth be known, the only caddie I have used this year was my wife. I would far more prefer to bring my own caddie than haul around my personal trolley in the bed of my pick up truck.
There is no bag boy required at my parents club to assemble the trolley. People have the option to bay for trolley storage, then the bag boy is utilized. You obviously don't understand why private golf is in the shape that it is. You prefer to do what you like and leave the other preferences up to others. Why the hate Jkava?
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Looking at Roger's figures, I get a total cost of £71,000 per year for carts with no allowance for staff, maintenance of the path, damage to the course, storage building, pension, insurance etc.
£71,000 divided by 10,000 cart rounds = $7 a round, again without including serious extras which likely pushes that price up. Roger budgets $25 a member per month which comes out to $150,000 per year for the club. But he says the carts only cost $71,000 a year to operate. Why is the membership being charged an extra $79,000 a year ($158 per member) in the name of carts? One could just as easily charge the members $12 a month and say the cart system does not subsidize the walkers. Hell, going on Roger's figures, why not just charge the members who use carts $7 a round (Rogers claim of the true cost per round) for the service rather than adding $25 a month per member? Anybody can claim carts as a revenue source if the members are charged twice what they cost. To me, this is just shuffling figures in budget columns then claiming riders subsidize walkers - it isn't accurate. Sure, then dues need to go up by presumably by amount lost in carts, but at least one gets a true reflection of what things cost so when it comes time to cut the budget there are real figures to work with. All that said, I am a firm believer that clubs have a core operation(s) and the add-ons are services. If the members want the services they figure out how to pay for them. Some clubs like the all-in approach and some prefer the extra services be charged on a user basis. Roger obviously knows his membership and believes they don't care if they are over-charged for carts because the breakdown per month isn't much anyway. As a member of a club, I would much rather know the true operational figures.
Ciao
S,
This is the way most American clubs operate in price structure imho. Most try and make the monthly dues as low as possible, then they add locker fee, range fee, food min., overcharge on carts, and prob a few others.
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But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.
Absolutely!
Its crazy to think that a club would prohibit outside push carts and charge anything more than $2-3 for a push cart rental. A cliqgear costs about $200 and should easily last 100-150 rounds.
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Does anyone else hate the terms "trolley" and "buggy" when used to describe pushcarts and riding carts?
If cart fees were reduced, most of my friends would be inclined to ride more often.
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But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.
Absolutely!
Its crazy to think that a club would prohibit outside push carts and charge anything more than $2-3 for a push cart rental. A cliqgear costs about $200 and should easily last 100-150 rounds.
You can buy a 12-pack of beer at the grocery store a lot cheaper than what it costs to drink in your club's bar. You can store clubs at home for free instead of paying a bag storage fee at your club. You can buy golf balls cheaper on eBay than in your club's pro shop. Everything can be found cheaper, somewhere.
Presumably a club charging $10 for a push-cart (or trolley, trolley, trolley, trolley...just for Brian ;-) is wishing to make money and not just break even.
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Does anyone else hate the terms "trolley" and "buggy" when used to describe pushcarts and riding carts?
When I am in the UK playing golf, I love it and, for me, it is part of the charm of golfing there...
When I am in the USA or on GCA, at least to me, it is simply affectatious...
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It makes no sense for those who advocate more walking to want carts not to be charged separately. There are a lot of people who walk solely because they don't want to pay a cart fee. Then some of these same guys complain about public courses where the greens fee includes the price of a cart and they want to walk. Illogical. High cart fees are like a large gas tax. The higher the price, the less use they will get. It's Econ 101. Supply and demand curves. Of course if you only allow people with a doctor's note to ride for free, then able bodied folks will go to their doctor complaining of knee and back pain. Personally I like all-inclusive club pricing, but that's not always smart marketing when the price tag provides sticker shock. My old club was an all-in price, but carts were still extra. I agree that it makes no sense to allow carrying but not push carts.
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Does anyone else hate the terms "trolley" and "buggy" when used to describe pushcarts and riding carts?
When I am in the UK playing golf, I love it and, for me, it is part of the charm of golfing there...
When I am in the USA or on GCA, at least to me, it is simply affectatious...
Agreed. I should have clarified that I don't hate the UK-based use of those terms. I just don't favor the US-based use of those terms. For the record, however, I prefer the term "cancellation" over the US-based "cancelation", so I'm not universally opposed to British spelling.
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The terms Trolley or Buggy helps break down the muni stereotypes when trying to convince your club to allow pushcarts. Visuals also matter, I can't tell you how disappointed I was to see Bandon allow people to bring their own pushcarts. Something about watching guys see how far their cart will roll down a hill without them took away from the sanctity of what initially was spiritual experience.
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The virtue of 'trolley' is that it applies whether you're intended to push or pull the thing! Plus, you have 'electric trolley' for the Powakaddy type machines. If everything's some form of 'cart' then you're asking one word to cover a lot of situations.
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Roger,
Don't mind Ben, he's just unclear as to what supply side economics actually is. He thinks it's something to do with lowering prices, and it is, but it's centred around the idea of reducing the cost to supply i.e the cost of production. It has nothing to do with just lowering your price and hoping your marginal increase in demand outstrips your reduction in marginal revenue. Ben's actually referring to demand elasticity but he doesn't know that. Well, he does now. ;D
Supply-side economics is a school of macroeconomics that argues that economic growth can be most effectively created by lowering barriers for people to produce (supply) goods and services as well as invest in capital. According to supply-side economics, consumers will then benefit from a greater supply of goods and services at lower prices; furthermore, the investment and expansion of businesses will increase the demand for employees.
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Roger,
Don't mind Ben, he's just unclear as to what supply side economics actually is. He thinks it's something to do with lowering prices, and it is, but it's centred around the idea of reducing the cost to supply i.e the cost of production. It has nothing to do with just lowering your price and hoping your marginal increase in demand outstrips your reduction in marginal revenue. Ben's actually referring to demand elasticity but he doesn't know that. Well, he does now. ;D
Supply-side economics is a school of macroeconomics that argues that economic growth can be most effectively created by lowering barriers for people to produce (supply) goods and services as well as invest in capital. According to supply-side economics, consumers will then benefit from a greater supply of goods and services at lower prices; furthermore, the investment and expansion of businesses will increase the demand for employees.
''He thinks it's something to do with lowering prices, and it is''
Bingo Paul. Supply-side is aka Voodoo econ ;D
''but it's centred around the idea of reducing the cost to supply i.e the cost of production''
I'm for that too. :D Paul, It is real simple the analogy was comparing golf clubs absorbent fees and encouraging growth. I'm very clear and it was a joke. :D
Supply-Side Economics
Supply-side economics emphasizes economic growth achieved by tax and fiscal policy that creates incentives to produce goods and services. In particular, supply-side economics has focused primarily on lowering marginal tax rates with the purpose of increasing the after-tax rate of return from work and investment, which result in increases in supply.
http://www.laffercenter.com/supply-side-economics/
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Let me add this. Victoria also gives me one unaccompanied foursome to donate to the charity of my choice.
I did not want this to be lost in the babble of this thread. That is an awesome practice for any club. VN rises a notch in my book.
Bogey
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Does anyone else hate the terms "trolley" and "buggy" when used to describe pushcarts and riding carts?
When I am in the UK playing golf, I love it and, for me, it is part of the charm of golfing there...
When I am in the USA or on GCA, at least to me, it is simply affectatious...
+1
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It's hard for me to take seriously a complaint about another person's choice of words being "affectatious". I'm like you're just shittin' me, right?
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It's only affectatious if you use a British accent when you say it.
I occasionally call them as such, because they are so commonly accepted in the UK and I would like them to be here as well.
I guess I have the..........................
Affectatious blues.
Meanest blues of all.
{ A Little Feat way of Life }
Wm Flynnfan
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This has all the look and feel of a great day.
This could be the best post ever.
Come on Scott. You can add to this post. Tell us how riding carts are viewed in the industry and how much they add to the bottom line. When I was looking at it in Texas many years ago, my recollection is that most courses do well over 80% of rounds on carts and profit margins were in the 60-70%. Fully allocating barn, cart paths, and wear and tear, carts probably have a larger net profit margin than even soft goods. Consider the revenue that would be lost after inclement weather (a purpose of the hated cart path) as well as the fixed cost nature of the fleet, and it is no wonder that club managers seek to maximize usage.
It behooves me how an entrepreneur like The Yank can't tell the difference between an item that commands incremental revenue at most courses and something that only adds costs. Why pray tell would a manager mess with a cart fleet if it didn't add value?
A reason that some riders look down at walkers is because in relative terms they don't add as much to the financial well-being of the club. Scott may have some data on this, but a manager at a former club told me that the average monthly bill of his active riders dwarfed those of his active walkers, and by considerably more than could be accounted for by cart usage (F&B, balls and equipment, soft goods, etc.). While I know that most of us are calling for flexibility as opposed to banning riding carts, perhaps a more correct attitude would be one of gratitude for those who spend generously at our clubs.
Hahaha, Lou, why would I want to get dragged into this mess by presenting actual facts. Arguments are much more fun when you make broad generalizations based on a single example and without any actual data. It is much more entertaining this way.
That said, I'll confirm your facts: Cart utilization varies by course but is generally between 60% and 90% for walkable courses. It obviously approaches 100% as it gets more difficult to walk. All things being equal, it generally goes up with price, as you move farther south, and as it gets more public. Yes, many good quality walkable courses are north of 80%. NOTE: THESE ARE GENERALIZATIONS. YOUR CLUB'S ACTUAL USE WILL VARY.
I think it would be pretty difficult to get any actual data on how much walkers vs riders spend (other than the cart fees, of course) because a lot of people do both.
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During my decade of country-club membership I've been taken aside on a couple of occasions and pilloried for being a "free rider" and a "trunk slammer" who does not support my club properly. My shortcoming?
Well in the eyes of a few older members who live in the housing developments near the club members like myself who show up a couple times per week to play a round of golf, have a bite of lunch then depart are nor paying our fair share. It's because we never come out on Wednesday and Friday nights for dinner service in the clubhouse and I do not bring my wife to the various dances, pool parties, holiday banquets and what have you that constitute the "social life" of the club.
Seems everyone has ideas as to who does and doesn't contribute adequately to the club's bottom line. I guess if a club wants more of my money each month they'd do well to increase the dues. Offering riding carts, serving expensive meals (in a dining room 20 miles from my home) and hosting banquets and dances is a mighty indirect way to extract revenue in my opinion.
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Your shortcoming, Brent, is that you don't have the same objectives as some of the members and because there are a lot of fixed costs involved in providing services, your choice not to avail yourself of them for additional fees means that those who value these things will have to pay more. It seems that aligning interests, preferences, and the means to pay for them is at the root of the problem. As Chris Johnston told me last year, one has to find a club where they "belong". Perhaps it is those members who cornered you who might wish to find a more suitable place to enjoy a wide variety of services. Here, Dallas CC has a very busy bar and dining room (or so I am told). My club, sometimes me and my golf companion are the only ones there at 7:30/8:00. (TEPaul's golf is a big world theory).
Roger's suggestion on carts make a lot of sense to heavy users and makes his life a lot easier, but it might (I am not that familiar with the Charlotte golf market) result in him losing some members. Being that the costs of maintaining a golf course are also highly fixed in the relevant range I am talking about here, it becomes a question of whether the additional revenues from the higher cart-included dues are sufficient to offset the loss in membership. I can report that at my club of over 20 years, when the management company imposed mandatory riding for premium times (mornings of weekends, holidays, and tournaments), they lost a bunch of members, quite a number who rode most of the time anyways. That might not be the case in some markets and at the top tier clubs, but to the extent that golf for most folks is considered a discretionary expenditure if not a luxury, I suspect that any major dues increase would be met with some resistance and attrition.
The whole issue of push carts is best seen in this context. For the most part, clubs which are financially sound and don't have silly affectations about looking like a muni probably don't pose a problem unless supporting a caddie program is an issue. As Don Mahaffey cleverly notes in Part II of his interview, extolling the health benefits of walking is something that should be stressed more. With so many upscale private clubs now offering extensive workout facilities, this might be the way to toehold push carts into being a viable choice for their members. Unfortunately, I am not seeing many young people who want to walk these days.
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Brent,
Shame on you. Your apparent desire to use your course for the purposes of golf, rather than as a gated retirement complex, forces others to pay for the services they're actually using. Surely you recognise that it's your responsibility as a good consumer to throw money at the club. ;)
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During my decade of country-club membership I've been taken aside on a couple of occasions and pilloried for being a "free rider" and a "trunk slammer" who does not support my club properly. My shortcoming?
Well in the eyes of a few older members who live in the housing developments near the club members like myself who show up a couple times per week to play a round of golf, have a bite of lunch then depart are nor paying our fair share. It's because we never come out on Wednesday and Friday nights for dinner service in the clubhouse and I do not bring my wife to the various dances, pool parties, holiday banquets and what have you that constitute the "social life" of the club.
Seems everyone has ideas as to who does and doesn't contribute adequately to the club's bottom line. I guess if a club wants more of my money each month they'd do well to increase the dues. Offering riding carts, serving expensive meals (in a dining room 20 miles from my home) and hosting banquets and dances is a mighty indirect way to extract revenue in my opinion.
Brent,
The question I have for you is your club healthy enough (financially) that it could afford to run off members that weren't attending social functions? I could see a club that was 90+% full getting an attitude and reminding you where you are, but in this day and age many clubs are hurting. Do they forget that you pay monthly dues and that you could take your business elsewhere?
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When times are good and membership is full, it is financially healthy to have some turnover. The new initiation fees keep the capital calls from occurring. Seems to be our philosophy but to me a waiting list can vanish quickly in a financial downturn.
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To answer the questions posed by Mr. Cowan and Mr. Duran...
In my area there aren't many of the full-on country club golf plus dining plus social type clubs still extant. Actually there is at least one in town but it's somewhat of a special case in terms of cost and what that club considers exclusivity (which others probably consider more like an unenlightened view of certain demographic issues).
So at my club there are now more "trunk slammers" than "real members", a trend over the past 10-15 years that some of the older members find unacceptable. But they have no real alternative, alas.
P.S. And no, our numbers are not healthy enough to run off any member who is willing to stay current on his dues. We need all kinds of members even if they don't totally share the same expectations of what the club should be.
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Brent is a perfect co-member at any club. I wish I had a hundred just like him. The simple fact is sadly I would never tell him in person. I'm sorry that the guys in the shadows who get the bills paid don't get more recognition. Hey, we all know it...people suck.
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Looking at Roger's figures, I get a total cost of £71,000 per year for carts with no allowance for staff, maintenance of the path, damage to the course, storage building, pension, insurance etc.
£71,000 divided by 10,000 cart rounds = $7 a round, again without including serious extras which likely pushes that price up. Roger budgets $25 a member per month which comes out to $150,000 per year for the club. But he says the carts only cost $71,000 a year to operate. Why is the membership being charged an extra $79,000 a year ($158 per member) in the name of carts? One could just as easily charge the members $12 a month and say the cart system does not subsidize the walkers. Hell, going on Roger's figures, why not just charge the members who use carts $7 a round (Rogers claim of the true cost per round) for the service rather than adding $25 a month per member? Anybody can claim carts as a revenue source if the members are charged twice what they cost. To me, this is just shuffling figures in budget columns then claiming riders subsidize walkers - it isn't accurate. Sure, then dues need to go up by presumably by amount lost in carts, but at least one gets a true reflection of what things cost so when it comes time to cut the budget there are real figures to work with. All that said, I am a firm believer that clubs have a core operation(s) and the add-ons are services. If the members want the services they figure out how to pay for them. Some clubs like the all-in approach and some prefer the extra services be charged on a user basis. Roger obviously knows his membership and believes they don't care if they are over-charged for carts because the breakdown per month isn't much anyway. As a member of a club, I would much rather know the true operational figures.
Ciao
Sean,
I am note sure if you agree with me or not. Our cart lease (72) is $5k per month. That is $60k per year. We charge them... call that $10k. We pay a $400 per month maintenance contract to the local dealer. I am not going to add the rest. So let's call it $80k per year. My cart revenue is approximately $140k per year and my cart fees are $13.99 plus tax. 80/140 = 57%. So to break even, assuming my riding rounds stay the same, I would drop my cart fee from $13.99 to $7.99. The entire membership's dues would be raised 60k ($12 per month) to make up for the lost cart revenue. Rider subsidization of walkers would be over.
Our membership appreciates the $13.99 since they know what the other clubs charge for carts. The average is over $20... the closest to us is $17.
This isn't brain surgery... it's just math.
PS. We allow members to use push carts and walk for free. We also offer storage for them. $60 a year for a bag. $60 for a push cart. $60 for an electric push cart (and we charge them). Also... Mr. Hutto... a double Grey Goose is $8. :) Dues are $367. Golf course maintenance budget is $1.2 million. We have 500 members but only do 22,000 rounds per year.
The major barrier I always run into is, "If it ain't broke... don't fix it." Cheers everyone and please come visit any time!
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Roger
Sure, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It doesn't much matter to me how anybody shuffles numbers around budget columns. My argument all along has been carts don't subsidize walkers. All you did was charge double what carts cost to each member (whether they use them or not) and then state that the revenue "subsidizes" walkers. If you charge members what carts actually cost and raise the dues to cover the actual costs of other items for which you are using the cart "revenue", then carts don't "subsidize"walkers. Its just pushing numbers and budget headings around, capiche? Its not like you are generating revenue from the carts because you don't charge based on cart usage. Plus, we don't know the real costs of the carts even if you did charge by cart usage.
Clubs generally don't set up their budgets in a full disclosure manner. Its the same with food. Members don't actually know what it costs to run the kitchen/restaurant (like a true business would) because the facilities are tied into overall club management. I always think its better to have as close to the real numbers as possible, but I understand thats inherently difficult to do at golf clubs. The problem is its difficult to properly analyse the "business" side of the club without accurate operating costs. This is why I think of food, carts etc as services offered by the club rather than "revenue streams". If the members want them, they have to figure out whats its worth and how to pay for it - by usage, everybody pays the same in monthly dues or a combo of the two.
Ciao
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The whole issue of push carts is best seen in this context. For the most part, clubs which are financially sound and don't have silly affectations about looking like a muni probably don't pose a problem unless supporting a caddie program is an issue. As Don Mahaffey cleverly notes in Part II of his interview, extolling the health benefits of walking is something that should be stressed more. With so many upscale private clubs now offering extensive workout facilities, this might be the way to toehold push carts into being a viable choice for their members. Unfortunately, I am not seeing many young people who want to walk these days.
Lou, you know, that's one of the bizarre things I don't get about younger golfers who like to ride. Hot weather aside, where's the logic in going to the gym for an hour, then playing golf in a cart?!
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The whole issue of push carts is best seen in this context. For the most part, clubs which are financially sound and don't have silly affectations about looking like a muni probably don't pose a problem unless supporting a caddie program is an issue. As Don Mahaffey cleverly notes in Part II of his interview, extolling the health benefits of walking is something that should be stressed more. With so many upscale private clubs now offering extensive workout facilities, this might be the way to toehold push carts into being a viable choice for their members. Unfortunately, I am not seeing many young people who want to walk these days.
Lou, you know, that's one of the bizarre things I don't get about younger golfers who like to ride. Hot weather aside, where's the logic in going to the gym for an hour, then playing golf in a cart?!
I was playing the Wigwam Gold with my brother and our sons, both in their '30's. GCA Forrest Richardson came out to see us finish. "I knew it was you guys. The old guys were walking, the young guys were riding."
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Sean,
I agree with you about simplicity in accounting etc. The problem, at least on this side of the pond, is that if you cut cart fees in half then more people will ride (if you see that as a problem). Also from the skewed perspective of many clubs they will then no longer see the carts as a profit center and maintenance, replacement etc. may suffer as a result.
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Looking at Roger's figures, I get a total cost of £71,000 per year for carts with no allowance for staff, maintenance of the path, damage to the course, storage building, pension, insurance etc.
£71,000 divided by 10,000 cart rounds = $7 a round, again without including serious extras which likely pushes that price up. Roger budgets $25 a member per month which comes out to $150,000 per year for the club. But he says the carts only cost $71,000 a year to operate. Why is the membership being charged an extra $79,000 a year ($158 per member) in the name of carts? One could just as easily charge the members $12 a month and say the cart system does not subsidize the walkers. Hell, going on Roger's figures, why not just charge the members who use carts $7 a round (Rogers claim of the true cost per round) for the service rather than adding $25 a month per member? Anybody can claim carts as a revenue source if the members are charged twice what they cost. To me, this is just shuffling figures in budget columns then claiming riders subsidize walkers - it isn't accurate. Sure, then dues need to go up by presumably by amount lost in carts, but at least one gets a true reflection of what things cost so when it comes time to cut the budget there are real figures to work with. All that said, I am a firm believer that clubs have a core operation(s) and the add-ons are services. If the members want the services they figure out how to pay for them. Some clubs like the all-in approach and some prefer the extra services be charged on a user basis. Roger obviously knows his membership and believes they don't care if they are over-charged for carts because the breakdown per month isn't much anyway. As a member of a club, I would much rather know the true operational figures.
Ciao
Sean,
I am note sure if you agree with me or not. Our cart lease (72) is $5k per month. That is $60k per year. We charge them... call that $10k. We pay a $400 per month maintenance contract to the local dealer. I am not going to add the rest. So let's call it $80k per year. My cart revenue is approximately $140k per year and my cart fees are $13.99 plus tax. 80/140 = 57%. So to break even, assuming my riding rounds stay the same, I would drop my cart fee from $13.99 to $7.99. The entire membership's dues would be raised 60k ($12 per month) to make up for the lost cart revenue. Rider subsidization of walkers would be over.
Our membership appreciates the $13.99 since they know what the other clubs charge for carts. The average is over $20... the closest to us is $17.
This isn't brain surgery... it's just math.
PS. We allow members to use push carts and walk for free. We also offer storage for them. $60 a year for a bag. $60 for a push cart. $60 for an electric push cart (and we charge them). Also... Mr. Hutto... a double Grey Goose is $8. :) Dues are $367. Golf course maintenance budget is $1.2 million. We have 500 members but only do 22,000 rounds per year.
The major barrier I always run into is, "If it ain't broke... don't fix it." Cheers everyone and please come visit any time!
Roger,
What about the additional costs to maintenance brought on by cart usage, as well as the maintenance of paths?
and the capital costs associated with building cart paths
Don't the fees charged for carts have to allow for that?
Not sure who is subsidizing who, but all costs have to accounted for, and I can't help but think free carts drives the cost up for all members, esp. walkers (due to increased usage causing wear and tear to carts, vehicles, and course)
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The whole issue of push carts is best seen in this context. For the most part, clubs which are financially sound and don't have silly affectations about looking like a muni probably don't pose a problem unless supporting a caddie program is an issue. As Don Mahaffey cleverly notes in Part II of his interview, extolling the health benefits of walking is something that should be stressed more. With so many upscale private clubs now offering extensive workout facilities, this might be the way to toehold push carts into being a viable choice for their members. Unfortunately, I am not seeing many young people who want to walk these days.
Lou, you know, that's one of the bizarre things I don't get about younger golfers who like to ride. Hot weather aside, where's the logic in going to the gym for an hour, then playing golf in a cart?!
I work at a University. Every day there are healthy, vigorous young men who drive their cars the six to eight blocks from the main part of campus (where most of the classes and dorms are located) to the edge of campus where the gym is located. Then they go do their strength and/or aerobic training or play basketball for a couple hours after which they drive their cars back to the garages near the dorms.
Even 20-year-olds who religiously work out daily and/or play active, running sports will not walk more than a few hundred yards if an automobile (or golf cart) can be used instead. It's just a cultural thing I guess. My idea is, they were driven everywhere (even very short distances) by their parents from infancy. In the suburbs it not uncommon to see parents who live with four or five blocks of the elementary school drive their kids to school, including waiting in line for five or six minutes to drop them off in front of the school. Then going to fetch them in the car at the end of the day.
By the way, at the university gym near my office this "drive to your workout" thing applies only to young men. The young women (who are just as into working out as the men, if not moreso) mostly seem to walk to the gym. For women walking to get somewhere seems to be seen as a valid activity. For men, it's a waste of time and energy. I think among younger golfers it's a similar attitude. The purpose of being on a golf course is to hit shots. Spending time and energy walking from shot to shot is seen as a waste and a distraction from the real purpose, just as making that 15-minute walk each way to gym and back takes time and energy that could be spent doing weight-lifting reps or playing an extra game of pickup basketball.
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Clubs generally don't set up their budgets in a full disclosure manner. Its the same with food. Members don't actually know what it costs to run the kitchen/restaurant (like a true business would) because the facilities are tied into overall club management. I always think its better to have as close to the real numbers as possible, but I understand thats inherently difficult to do at golf clubs. The problem is its difficult to properly analyse the "business" side of the club without accurate operating costs. This is why I think of food, carts etc as services offered by the club rather than "revenue streams". If the members want them, they have to figure out whats its worth and how to pay for it - by usage, everybody pays the same in monthly dues or a combo of the two.
All true,but...
At a member owned club,the only "profit center" is the dues line. Everything else is a decision of which ledger gets which revenue and/or expense. There's a fine line to walk between making normal business decisions versus "wasteful" member decisions.
A great club isn't always run with cold blooded cost analysis. There has to be some nuance or you lose the feel of a club.
All a Board and/or GM can do is make sure most of the pissed away money is pissed away on things a significant percentage of the membership is willing to live with.
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I can't help but think free carts drives the cost up for all members, esp. walkers
Well in the aggregate, obviously golf with carts as part of the equation costs more than golf without. If everyone chose to walk and no carts had to be leased, charged, maintained or provided with paths and storage buildings then the total costs of a golf course would be markedly lower.
But as soon as a certain number of golfers insist on playing only where they can ride then the majority of costs are there no matter how much or little the carts are used and no matter how you set the cart fee. At a club with 22,000 rounds per year played the marginal difference in cart-related costs between having 5,000 of those rounds played in carts versus having 20,000 of them played in carts is quite small. All those paths and storage buildings are needed either way, almost as many carts must be leased and maintained. Too much of the cart stuff is either strictly fixed costs or effectively so.
So in a place where cart riding is the normative, majority preference this whole discussion about setting fees, accounting for costs or who is "subsidizing" whom amounts to arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The overall economics of the situation and the trajectory of future trends are pretty much set. All you can do is fiddle around at the margins. Which generally is not worth "fixing" what is perceived as not "broken"...
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JM
You get no argument from me.
Ciao
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What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!
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What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!
There are pushcarts and there are pullcarts.
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What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!
The 3-wheeler Sun Mountain "speed cart," for example, was not designed to be pulled comfortably. The handle is too high. It's really easy to push. I use one during the non-summer months. My wife uses hers year around.
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What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!
The 3-wheeler Sun Mountain "speed cart," for example, was not designed to be pulled comfortably. The handle is too high. It's really easy to push. I use one during the non-summer months. My wife uses hers year around.
So does the summer Panhandle heat bother your wife and her friends less than it does yourself and your male buddies?
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Roger
Sure, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It doesn't much matter to me how anybody shuffles numbers around budget columns. My argument all along has been carts don't subsidize walkers. All you did was charge double what carts cost to each member (whether they use them or not) and then state that the revenue "subsidizes" walkers. If you charge members what carts actually cost and raise the dues to cover the actual costs of other items for which you are using the cart "revenue", then carts don't "subsidize"walkers. Its just pushing numbers and budget headings around, capiche? Its not like you are generating revenue from the carts because you don't charge based on cart usage. Plus, we don't know the real costs of the carts even if you did charge by cart usage.
Clubs generally don't set up their budgets in a full disclosure manner. Its the same with food. Members don't actually know what it costs to run the kitchen/restaurant (like a true business would) because the facilities are tied into overall club management. I always think its better to have as close to the real numbers as possible, but I understand thats inherently difficult to do at golf clubs. The problem is its difficult to properly analyse the "business" side of the club without accurate operating costs. This is why I think of food, carts etc as services offered by the club rather than "revenue streams". If the members want them, they have to figure out whats its worth and how to pay for it - by usage, everybody pays the same in monthly dues or a combo of the two.
Ciao
S,
This is one of your best posts. That is utter nonsense using the excuse ''you lose a club experience'' when you don't keep an eye on the numbers. We are talking about flyover land. If people can stop saying riders subsidize walkers, we could get over this. If you are a traditional routed club where walking is part of the culture and you are trying to encourage walking, real simple Charge 65+ year old members $5-$10 for a cart and younger $15-25. If you are a cartballer course have carballer all you can cart for the year prices (non-mandatory).
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...If you are a traditional routed club...
I don't mean to interrupt the discourse here, but could you please tell me what a "traditional routed club" is?
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...If you are a traditional routed club...
I don't mean to interrupt the discourse here, but could you please tell me what a "traditional routed club" is?
Greens close to tees. Built/routed for walking. hence traditional due to (most courses) not having golf carts when they were built
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Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.
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Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.
If the course has a walking culture and you are trying to encourage walking...then. Carts at most private clubs are $15-30. Younger golfers are able to walk 18 holes and the game is a walking game. I didn't know the First Tee was about encouraging kids to ride in golf carts?
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This is one of your best posts. That is utter nonsense using the excuse ''you lose a club experience'' when you don't keep an eye on the numbers. We are talking about flyover land. If people can stop saying riders subsidize walkers, we could get over this. If you are a traditional routed club where walking is part of the culture and you are trying to encourage walking, real simple Charge 65+ year old members $5-$10 for a cart and younger $15-25. If you are a cartballer course have carballer all you can cart for the year prices (non-mandatory).
For someone who's never been involved in the governance of a member owned club,never been a member of a member owned club,nor probably ever stepped foot on the property of a member owned club,you sure have a lot of opinions.
Are there any other discussion groups you frequent where your knowledge of the subject is less than zero?
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This is one of your best posts. That is utter nonsense using the excuse ''you lose a club experience'' when you don't keep an eye on the numbers. We are talking about flyover land. If people can stop saying riders subsidize walkers, we could get over this. If you are a traditional routed club where walking is part of the culture and you are trying to encourage walking, real simple Charge 65+ year old members $5-$10 for a cart and younger $15-25. If you are a cartballer course have carballer all you can cart for the year prices (non-mandatory).
For someone who's never been involved in the governance of a member owned club,never been a member of a member owned club,nor probably ever stepped foot on the property of a member owned club,you sure have a lot of opinions.
Are there any other discussion groups you frequent where your knowledge of the subject is less than zero?
Hardly accurate JM, but feel free to look down on me all you want. My knowledge is in the common sense dept. There have been many studies even cited on here about clubs not running themselves with the idea of trying to make a profit, even though their goal is to be at zero at the end of the year! My father happens to be a CPA, I have gone over the books of the member owned club I grew up at. Seeing all the waste and funky accounting, I don't desire to be a member of a member owned club and due to arseholes like yourself.
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Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.
If the course has a walking culture and you are trying to encourage walking...then. Carts at most private clubs are $15-30. Younger golfers are able to walk 18 holes and the game is a walking game. I didn't know the First Tee was about encouraging kids to ride in golf carts?
Would you rather have more people play golf in riding carts, or would you prefer a smaller group of walkers? If I'm an owner or GM, I think I know which I'd prefer. Not trying to be snarky here, but for better or worse, the game here in the USA is not necessarily a walking game. Sure there is a group of us who definitely prefer to walk, but that's not the general golfing public or the vast majority of club members either.
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Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.
If the course has a walking culture and you are trying to encourage walking...then. Carts at most private clubs are $15-30. Younger golfers are able to walk 18 holes and the game is a walking game. I didn't know the First Tee was about encouraging kids to ride in golf carts?
Would you rather have more people play golf in riding carts, or would you prefer a smaller group of walkers? If I'm an owner or GM, I think I know which I'd prefer.
Are we talking about a private club in middle America or a public course? If it is a private club, the young members are already paying $15+ a pop. Don't you think it would be wise to lower Senior cart fee, as a way of thanking them for their 20+ years of being a member. If you lower your cart fee for the able bodied you are going to have to raise your maint. budget.
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Are we talking about a private club in middle America or a public course? If it is a private club, the young members are already paying $15+ a pop. Don't you think it would be wise to lower Senior cart fee, as a way of thanking them for their 20+ years of being a member. If you lower your cart fee for the able bodied you are going to have to raise your maint. budget.
I think you set the fee at whatever gets people out on the course. At the end of the day, I am neither an owner, GM, board member, club president, etc., and I'm a walker, so, at the risk of sounding callous, I'm not really sure I care what the cart fee is. Just as I don't really care whether anyone else carries, rides, pushes, takes a caddy, uses a hovercraft...
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I'm with Brian on this one. All this abstract speculation aside the setting of cart fees higher or lower or to zero has no effect on me whatsoever (unless it's done so foolishly as to somehow make my club insolvent). It's all just a matter of curiosity for me.
At my club (which yes is private and which I suppose would count as "middle America" being in a suburb of a mid-market city not located in a coastal area) it's the young members who get the price breaks. Someone B's age at my club would pay less than 2/3 the dues that I pay. We have like four age tiers of memberships and once you get to 50 you're paying the highest dues.
It's nothing to do with bringing new people to "the game" but comes from a theory that maybe we already have all the 60-year-old guys we're ever going to attract but we're slugging it out with other clubs trying to attract any unaffiliated 30-year-olds who might be looking for a club to join.
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Roger,
What about the additional costs to maintenance brought on by cart usage, as well as the maintenance of paths?
and the capital costs associated with building cart paths
Don't the fees charged for carts have to allow for that?
Not sure who is subsidizing who, but all costs have to accounted for, and I can't help but think free carts drives the cost up for all members, esp. walkers (due to increased usage causing wear and tear to carts, vehicles, and course)
Good points Jeff. It is tough to capture all of the costs. However, if you can live with the assumption that your club MUST HAVE CARTS. Then you can eliminate the fixed costs and just concentrate on the variable.
As to wear and tear on the golf course. Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear. Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent. We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers. Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math. I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria.
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Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers. Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math. I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria.
OK, if we can just call the subsidy a "stimulus" would we all feel better? At the end of the day, the bills have to be paid. Maybe we should send our fellow members who ride a thank you note occasionally (Mike Beene too for paying $10 to push a cart). But my, don't we love our free stuff!
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As to wear and tear on the golf course. Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear. Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent. We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it. Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint. Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week. Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter? I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic. I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness. It's really a team effort.
Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers. Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math. I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria.
It is all marketing, you keep cart fees high, so you can lower your monthly dues. It is deceptive telling people what your monthly dues are, and the bill they get at the end of the month/year with all the x,y, and z mandatory fees. As my friend who is an exceptional keeper replied, ''If we didn't have any walking rounds, the maint of the course would go up''. You aren't subsidizing walkers, you are encouraging less carts
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As to wear and tear on the golf course. Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear. Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent. We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
I'll help Roger out a little.
Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it. Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint. I walk with a power cart for my bag. I carry two "sand" bottles, and refill, so sometimes I'll use four bottles around. Spare time between shots. I fill divots. Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week. Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter? Not currently (although in the very distant past we did one or two years. No point in it as I see it). I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic. From my standpoint, as a member of the club, that does not seem to be a problem. I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness. It's really a team effort.
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Out of interest, what would happen if a bunch of members just turned-up with trolleys/push-carts and went out and used them, just did it? Would they be chucked off the course, be fined or disciplined in some way, have their memberships suspended? No slight intended, just curious.
Atb
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Thomas,
Depending on the club, the response might be 1) Nothing 2) They might get a verbal or written warning when an uppity member complained or 3) they might get tackled by the club's elite rent-a-cop brigade...
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Thomas,
Depending on the club, the response might be 1) Nothing 2) They might get a verbal or written warning when an uppity member complained or 3) they might get tackled by the club's elite rent-a-cop brigade...
4) be charged a riding cart fee and sent a letter of reprimand. At least in this part of the country, few private clubs would look the other way.
A buddy of mine effectively did this in a bad economy, carried his clubs in the club championship, and he was billed, shunned by his playing partners, and handed a letter by the head pro when he finished his round stating that he would be disqualified if he failed to abide by club rules from then on. Years later, the club relaxed this rule; one could walk during tournaments provided that a cart fee was paid and play was not delayed. Peer pressure remained unchanged- in his case, riders complained that a) he was slow (a fact), and b) his clubs clinked when he walked up behind them disturbing their shot preparation (they did). At least he won the club championship one year, riding since he was being charged anyways.
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I'm usually just as happy to ride, and I can certainly understand the required caddie mentality, but getting charged to walk is the international signal to turn around, throw your clubs in the trunk and head for the hills IMO,
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I'm usually just as happy to ride, and I can certainly understand the required caddie mentality, but getting charged to walk is the international signal to turn around, throw your clubs in the trunk and head for the hills IMO,
Getting charged to walk an additional fee above and beyond my monthly dues would be the signal for me to head home and draft up my membership resignation letter.
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Thanks guys. The phrase "elite rent-a-cop brigade" kind of appeals to my sense of humour - visions of Keystone-like cops chasing naughty trolley/push-cart using golfers across lush green fairways come to mind! :)
Atb
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I am a member of a private club where the dues are $500 per year but you pay a trail fee when you play, walk or ride. We have 200 members and the club needs more than the $100,000 a year they get in dues to survive. You guys who think you are walking for free are kidding yourselves. You don't really want to walk for free, you want to walk for less.
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So let's say you paid, say, five thousand bucks initiation fee and another five thousand a year in dues to belong to a golf club and were perfectly happy there. It costs $15 to play a round with a cart and $0 to play a round, walking.
Now let's say the Board crunches the numbers and sees that they are failing to meet the club's revenue requirements. So starting next year the cart fee goes up to $18 a round and it will cost $3 for rounds played walking. The alternative would have been to go up $300 per year on the dues.
Are you guys saying you'd just quit on the spot rather than start paying $3 per round? But you'd stay if the dues went up $300 per year? Would it matter if it were $1 per round instead? Do you feel like you're serving some meaningful moral purpose here or are you simply cutting off your nose to spite your face out of sheer cheapness?
John,
Exactly. I spent something like $4,900 at my club last year. Of that about $3,500 was "dues" and $300 was the per-round fees for playing golf walking at $3/round (the balance was food and beverage). If the club had not charged me that $300 my rounds would not have been "free" they would have simply cost me about 10% less than they did in fact cost. Call it the difference between $35 and $38 per round.
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At this point, I'd probably be willing to donate my annual golf budget to end this thread. I blame myself for continuing to participate, but the lunacy of many of the posts is what keeps bringing me back.
Unless there's a damn good reason for the increased dues or fees (like golf course maintenance), I'd probably cut my losses and walk away.
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Brent,
Paying dues and then having to effectively pay a greens fee is a psychologically undesirable hurdle IMO. Yes, give me the dues increase.
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Brent,
Paying dues and then having to effectively pay a greens fee is a psychologically undesirable hurdle. Yes, give me the dues increase.
For me paying $300 a month even if I never set foot on the course is the psychologically undesirable hurdle. I wish they'd cut my dues to $100 a month and charge me $23 a round to walk. I'd break even in a normal month and save a fortune when it's too hot in August and too cold in February!
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Agree that nothing is free but this gets to be a little like the federal budget: If you don't fight you get run over and those without knowledge get screwed to some degree. How many of our members know they get a charge for the driving range every month( not sure how much but what
I lose paying for pushcarts I gain in range balls). I really don't want to know everything; then the fun of going to the club is nickeled and dimed out of me. If you get the best of me in a deal, at this point I would rather be left fat dumb and happy.Back to the subject, push carts carry divot sand and pushers(not drug related) fill the carriers divots for the most part. And if it takes an extra second the carriers fix my ball mark as I am walking up( or did when I actually hit greens from more than 20 yards).
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At this point, I'd probably be willing to donate my annual golf budget to end this thread. I blame myself for continuing to participate, but the lunacy of many of the posts is what keeps bringing me back.
Unless there's a damn good reason for the increased dues or fees (like golf course maintenance), I'd probably cut my losses and walk away.
I understand that you are young but you will learn over time is that the replacements in your life rarely compare to the original. All these bold statements of my way or the highway are childish blather.
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If pure economic logic ruled the day, 1/3 of the clubs would shutter tomorrow. Of course we'd also all drive used diesel VW's, marry wide-hipped midwestern farm girls and not be Cubs fans, but where's the fun in that?
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At this point, I'd probably be willing to donate my annual golf budget to end this thread. I blame myself for continuing to participate, but the lunacy of many of the posts is what keeps bringing me back.
Unless there's a damn good reason for the increased dues or fees (like golf course maintenance), I'd probably cut my losses and walk away.
I understand that you are young but you will learn over time is that the replacements in your life rarely compare to the original. All these bold statements of my way or the highway are childish blather.
Let me put it this way, my wife would make me walk away. It's tough enough getting her to agree to spend the money on a club membership. If I had to pay to walk, she would pull the plug on the membership.
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Brian,
I'm half joking here but honest to god my first thought upon reading yours and Jud's emphatic comments was "Maybe these guys sold their wives on membership as a way to play 'free' golf". A bit gobsmacked to find out my humorous take has a kernel of truth...
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It is exceedingly difficult in the existing environment(post 2008) to keep dues/fees palatable to the core membership of private golf clubs. It only takes a few guys to feel like they are getting their pants pulled down to start a groundswell. I think trolleys/pull carts are coming en masse to many private clubs that would have never have considered them before because of the revenue they will bring. They will be club owned and they won't be free. The clubs with healthy caddie programs will resist but there is no doubt a new model is on the horizon.
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Brian,
I'm half joking here but honest to god my first thought upon reading yours and Jud's emphatic comments was "Maybe these guys sold their wives on membership as a way to play 'free' golf". A bit gobsmacked to find out my humorous take has a kernel of truth...
Not quite. My wife just has no interest in golf, thinks it's an expensive hobby and doesn't understand the appeal of joining a club. She would rather spend our money on travel. If I'm getting nickeled and dimed with extra fees, then it's one more strike against golf in her eyes. I don't mind paying my dues, and I never sold my wife on membership as somehow being free golf.
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It doesn't surprise me in the least that it is the GCA crowd that can't realize that they joined a club with a culture that doesn't fit them.
We are the fat guys in the little jackets, hoping the rest of the world will just change to meet our ideals.
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If pure economic logic ruled the day, 1/3 of the clubs would shutter tomorrow. Of course we'd also all drive used diesel VW's, marry wide-hipped midwestern farm girls and not be Cubs fans, but where's the fun in that?
+1, that is a brilliant idea! I have had two diesel VW's which i miss greatly
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As to wear and tear on the golf course. Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear. Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent. We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it. Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint. Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week. Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter? I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic. I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness. It's really a team effort.
Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers. Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math. I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria.
It is all marketing, you keep cart fees high, so you can lower your monthly dues. It is deceptive telling people what your monthly dues are, and the bill they get at the end of the month/year with all the x,y, and z mandatory fees. As my friend who is an exceptional keeper replied, ''If we didn't have any walking rounds, the maint of the course would go up''. You aren't subsidizing walkers, you are encouraging less carts
I give up BCowan. This is like arguing religion. You call cartballers "lazy" in the quote above which tells me your argument is based purely on emotion and not facts. And Sean... I don't know about your club's budget but our's is no mystery. We tell the members exactly where every penny goes and actually do a presentation that shows just how much has to come from dues (after estimating the variable revenue we get from member usage).
I enjoy walking much, much more than riding but I refuse to let my subjective opinion interfere with what should be a purely objective discussion.
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As to wear and tear on the golf course. Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear. Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent. We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it. Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint. Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week. Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter? I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic. I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness. It's really a team effort.
Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers. Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math. I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria.
It is all marketing, you keep cart fees high, so you can lower your monthly dues. It is deceptive telling people what your monthly dues are, and the bill they get at the end of the month/year with all the x,y, and z mandatory fees. As my friend who is an exceptional keeper replied, ''If we didn't have any walking rounds, the maint of the course would go up''. You aren't subsidizing walkers, you are encouraging less carts
I give up BCowan. This is like arguing religion. You call cartballers "lazy" in the quote above which tells me your argument is based purely on emotion and not facts. And Sean... I don't know about your club's budget but our's is no mystery. We tell the members exactly where every penny goes and actually do a presentation that shows just how much has to come from dues (after estimating the variable revenue we get from member usage).
I enjoy walking much, much more than riding but I refuse to let my subjective opinion interfere with what should be a purely objective discussion.
Roger,
Observations aren't emotion. ''Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles ''. Your statement is so off the mark. Do you not value your walkers monthly dues? Is it not enough that you have to think of them as free loaders off people who ride carts? I don't want to speak for Sean but he seems to echo my thoughts as we don't want to hear walkers are cheap and taking advantage of their club.
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This thread is the a sample of why we're losing the millenial generation (see related thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59167.0.html)
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I am a member of a private club where the dues are $500 per year but you pay a trail fee when you play, walk or ride. We have 200 members and the club needs more than the $100,000 a year they get in dues to survive. You guys who think you are walking for free are kidding yourselves. You don't really want to walk for free, you want to walk for less.
I think you just answered the question. 200 members???? How in the hell is that economic?
Every decent metro club in australia has well north of 1200 members. Royal sydney has 6000 for heavens sake.
Actually allow people to join and the revenue issue vanishes
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My own club has fewer than 300 full members (not counting 100 or so non-golf social members). In most smaller USA cities any plan that requires 1,000+ members for solvency...would produce a bankrupt club. It just ain't gonna happen in my town for sure. Even 500 would be crazy talk in the current climate.
In any case I'd rather join a club with 200 members and pay a few bucks per round than fight it out for tee times with 1,200 golfers. Yikes!
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In the US, we don't have all the venomous snakes and spiders that Australia has to keep courses from being overrun with golfers. Any club that let thousands of members in would quickly grow too crowded, and no one would go there anymore.
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I am a member of a private club where the dues are $500 per year but you pay a trail fee when you play, walk or ride. We have 200 members and the club needs more than the $100,000 a year they get in dues to survive. You guys who think you are walking for free are kidding yourselves. You don't really want to walk for free, you want to walk for less.
I think you just answered the question. 200 members???? How in the hell is that economic?
Every decent metro club in australia has well north of 1200 members. Royal sydney has 6000 for heavens sake.
Actually allow people to join and the revenue issue vanishes
Anyone in the world can join the club. Our county where the club is located has 17,000 residents and we only have 200 golfers who can afford the $500 per year dues. I just don't see the problem with user fees. You use the club you pay a fee, it seems perfectly fair.
I'm sure you will be happy to know that cart riders pay more than walkers, walkers just don't get a free ride.
We are also lucky to supplement our revenue with slot machines which have just become legal in Illinois. We also drink a ton of beer and have revenue producing tournaments and leagues.
Our biggest drawback is our lack of cart revenue because most members own their own carts, including me. We pay a $200 per year fee for storage and the right to use the cart, plus a trail fee for each time we play.
It is a great club where rounds, even mine, come in under 3 hours for 18 holes. That is however a function of architecture and not culture.
Your anger is displaced.
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...walkers just don't get a free ride.
So to speak.
We pay a $200 per year fee for storage and the right to use the cart, plus a trail fee for each time we play.
Now THAT is the deal of the century, so far. I pay $75/year just to store my spare SpeedCart at the clubhouse. It would be $150/year for push cart plus golf clubs. If our club offered to store riding carts I'd imagine we'd charge three or four times that much at least.
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Roger,
Observations aren't emotion. ''Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles ''. Your statement is so off the mark. Do you not value your walkers monthly dues? Is it not enough that you have to think of them as free loaders off people who ride carts? I don't want to speak for Sean but he seems to echo my thoughts as we don't want to hear walkers are cheap and taking advantage of their club.
Where do you imply I said the walkers are cheap freeloaders... SUBJECTIVE.
Riders subsidize walkers... OBJECTIVE.
You statement is so off the mark... SUBJECTIVE.
Walkers do not repair divots... OBJECTIVE.
Again... impossible to have a rationale argument.
PS... My wife is a superintendent so please do not wave your "superintendent friend" flag. Walkers do not fix divots... riders cause more wear and tear on the rough and fairways.
Give it up.
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O.K., the title of this thread is "Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club," but it has evolved into something a little different. The whole walkers vs. riders thing, and who is subsidizing whom, is, as the youngsters might say, bogus. At my club, at the micro level, there are plenty of walkers (with push/pull carts or power trolleys) who fix more fairway divots than some riders (or any rider), and vice versa. How about ball marks on the greens? Recently I've been appalled by the unrepaired or very poorly repaired ball marks on our greens. Are those the ball marks of walkers or riders? This maintenance issue has nothing to do with walking vs. riding. And what's the relative contribution each make to the bottom line vis a vis the damage they do to the course? At the micro level it's not walkers vs. riders, it's members who care vs. members who don't (private club here). At the marco level, it's simply business. How does a club mazimize enjoyment and minimize cost the in order to remain healthy? Not an easy question to answer, by a long shot.
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http://www.golfdigeststix.com/golfdigeststix/20140604?pg=15#article_id=451407
Also in Golf Digest, 8/2014, from David Fay:
http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2014-08/david-fay-opinion-pushcarts
"Only in America is there a stigma against pushcarts (trolleys). Some sniff that pushcarts look "muny." Here's a small sampling of U.S. golf clubs that embrace that look, some or all of the time: The Country Club and Kittansett (Massachusetts); Atlanta Athletic Club; Newport (Rhode Island); Fishers Island, Maidstone and Shinnecock Hills (New York); Somerset Hills (New Jersey); Ballyneal and Denver Country Club (Colorado); The Valley Club of Montecito (California); Yeamans Hall (South Carolina); Riomar (Florida) and many of the fine private clubs in the Pacific Northwest and Upper Midwest."
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Apparently David Fay has not played Merion's West course. ;D
The objection at my former club, founded in 1990 in the Philly 'burbs, was the "muny look." They did have a "walk&carry" policy after 2pm weekdays and on weekends if no caddy was available. I do not know their current policy.
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O.K., the title of this thread is "Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club," but it has evolved into something a little different. The whole walkers vs. riders thing, and who is subsidizing whom, is, as the youngsters might say, bogus. At my club, at the micro level, there are plenty of walkers (with push/pull carts or power trolleys) who fix more fairway divots than some riders (or any rider), and vice versa. How about ball marks on the greens? Recently I've been appalled by the unrepaired or very poorly repaired ball marks on our greens. Are those the ball marks of walkers or riders? This maintenance issue has nothing to do with walking vs. riding. And what's the relative contribution each make to the bottom line vis a vis the damage they do to the course? At the micro level it's not walkers vs. riders, it's members who care vs. members who don't (private club here). At the marco level, it's simply business. How does a club mazimize enjoyment and minimize cost the in order to remain healthy? Not an easy question to answer, by a long shot.
Sorry Carl... riders fix more divots... its a fact. BUT... the rest of your post is spot on!
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We have divot sand on the push carts and you better believe we fix our divots.
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The objection at my former club, founded in 1990 in the Philly 'burbs, was the "muny look."
This is so sad on so many counts. I'm betting that a big percentage of members grew up playing municipal or public courses. I know I did, and I'm proud of it.
The only downside of a push cart is if it falls in the middle of the night from the hanger in the garage and puts a big dent in your car's passenger-side door (which happened to me last month :)
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We have divot sand on the push carts and you better believe we fix our divots.
I can most certainly confirm this, though no one has been fixing any divots at our course since January 1 (Coore/Crenshaw renovation work ALMOST DONE!!!).
Those of us who prefer to carry fix divots as well. While we don't typically lug a jug of sand, there are ways to repair Bermuda divots without tracking down a beaver pelt or filling with sand. A couple of well placed jabs with an iron (think like you're repairing a ball mark on the green) and you can draw the grass back together to make a playable lie and encourage the growth over the former divot.
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Not tracking down a beaver pelt is a dick move.
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Not tracking down a beaver pelt is a dick move.
Very clever! But, seriously, replacing a divot on Bermuda is counter-productive - worse than doing nothing. It happens. You've got to know the "turf."
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Lou-
After 2, add the cricket club to the list. Not sure the evolution of it, but we allow it. They do just about everything right here. Just awesome.
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Lou-
After 2, add the cricket club to the list. Not sure the evolution of it, but we allow it. They do just about everything right here. Just awesome.
Not sure my wife Connecticut born wife would move with me back to Philly for push carts, but that is nice to hear. Love it! ;D
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It is interesting to note that here in Canada things are quite different, despite the fact that generally private golf clubs work the same as in the US.
Toronto Golf Club and Rosedale Golf Club are probably the most exclusive old-style private golf clubs in the country. They are each over 120 years old. The default for both of these courses when you are a guest is to put your bag on a push cart. Caddies are very rare at these clubs and any place in Canada, except for Hamilton.
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O.K., the title of this thread is "Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club," but it has evolved into something a little different. The whole walkers vs. riders thing, and who is subsidizing whom, is, as the youngsters might say, bogus. At my club, at the micro level, there are plenty of walkers (with push/pull carts or power trolleys) who fix more fairway divots than some riders (or any rider), and vice versa. How about ball marks on the greens? Recently I've been appalled by the unrepaired or very poorly repaired ball marks on our greens. Are those the ball marks of walkers or riders? This maintenance issue has nothing to do with walking vs. riding. And what's the relative contribution each make to the bottom line vis a vis the damage they do to the course? At the micro level it's not walkers vs. riders, it's members who care vs. members who don't (private club here). At the marco level, it's simply business. How does a club mazimize enjoyment and minimize cost the in order to remain healthy? Not an easy question to answer, by a long shot.
Sorry Carl... riders fix more divots... its a fact. BUT... the rest of your post is spot on!
So with youR logic and "fact" people in the UK ....generally walkers...fix less divots than their American cart riding counterparts, I beg to differ
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MWP,
Don't try to turn what Roger said into yet another USA-UK strawman non-sequitur.
At Roger's southeastern USA golf courses he observes that carts riders fix more divots than walkers. I have observed the same thing at other southeastern USA golf courses. When "fixing divots" entails carrying an eight-pound bottle of sand/seed mix, it is not in the least surprising that the guy with his bag on his shoulder tends NOT to do it while the guy riding in a power carts DOES tend to do it.
At my own club in particular where push carts (trolleys) are very popular, a great many push-cart walkers do carry sand/seed bottles attached to their push cart. As I do, myself. Those people do tend to fix divots. On the occasions when I carry my bag on my shoulder (as I would do at any club which disallowed push carts for whatever inane reason) I do not carry sand/seed mix.
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MWP,
Don't try to turn what Roger said into yet another USA-UK strawman non-sequitur.
At Roger's southeastern USA golf courses he observes that carts riders fix more divots than walkers. I have observed the same thing at other southeastern USA golf courses. When "fixing divots" entails carrying an eight-pound bottle of sand/seed mix, it is not in the least surprising that the guy with his bag on his shoulder tends NOT to do it while the guy riding in a power carts DOES tend to do it.
At my own club in particular where push carts (trolleys) are very popular, a great many push-cart walkers do carry sand/seed bottles attached to their push cart. As I do, myself. Those people do tend to fix divots. On the occasions when I carry my bag on my shoulder (as I would do at any club which disallowed push carts for whatever inane reason) I do not carry sand/seed mix.
Thanks Brent. Geez these guys are sensitive. Carts have two giant sand bottles. 100% of the guys carrying their bag do not have sand bottles. 75% of the guys with push carts do not have sand bottles. 50% of the guys with motorized push carts do not have sand bottles. We do not replace divots on bermudagrass... we sand them. ITS JUST MATH!
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Lou,
MPCC has them for no charge. They are equipped to carry seed.
Bob
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MWP,
Don't try to turn what Roger said into yet another USA-UK strawman non-sequitur.
At Roger's southeastern USA golf courses he observes that carts riders fix more divots than walkers. I have observed the same thing at other southeastern USA golf courses. When "fixing divots" entails carrying an eight-pound bottle of sand/seed mix, it is not in the least surprising that the guy with his bag on his shoulder tends NOT to do it while the guy riding in a power carts DOES tend to do it.
At my own club in particular where push carts (trolleys) are very popular, a great many push-cart walkers do carry sand/seed bottles attached to their push cart. As I do, myself. Those people do tend to fix divots. On the occasions when I carry my bag on my shoulder (as I would do at any club which disallowed push carts for whatever inane reason) I do not carry sand/seed mix.
Thanks Brent. Geez these guys are sensitive. Carts have two giant sand bottles. 100% of the guys carrying their bag do not have sand bottles. 75% of the guys with push carts do not have sand bottles. 50% of the guys with motorized push carts do not have sand bottles. We do not replace divots on bermudagrass... we sand them. ITS JUST MATH!
Roger, my original point was not that players walking fix more divots than players riding. Of course, the accessibility of "sand" to the riders gives then the advantage here. Certainly, per round, the average rider will fix more diviots than the average walker at our course. What I said was that plenty of walkers fix more divots than some riders. (As you know, most of the time I walk with a Kangaroo power caddy, and carry two sand bottles. Tuesday I emptied four during my round - fixing not just my diviots, but neighborhood divots and random diviots while I waiting to take the next shot, with nothing else to do. On the other hand, I've played with others using riding carts who don't fix some or any of their diviots.) My larger point was that some golfers ride, some walk, some fix fairway divots, some don't, some fix ball marks on greens, some don't, some play slow, some play fast, etc. Therefore, I think it's unreasonable to say walkers should pay more because they don't fix divots, or that riders should pay more because the do more course damage (apparently at some courses, though not ours). Rather than pick at little things that vary from player to player, regardless of category, I think you've got to take a broad view of how dues and separate fees affect your ability to attract and keep members. For instance, adding $25/mo. to dues and dropping cart fees (and building it into the green fee for visitors) -- also including cart storage in the dues package -- isn't going to affect me one way or another -- but how would that be taken by the membership as a whole and what effect would it have on attracting and retaining members? It might help. It might hurt. It might be neutral. I don't think it's a clear call. That's why you and the Board have a crystal ball!
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Lou,
MPCC has them for no charge. They are equipped to carry seed.
Bob
Bob,
I remember playing the Dunes course with you 10 years ago and you walked all 18 with your battery-powered cart. As I recall, the club stored and maintained it for you. We also played the "old" Shore course that afternoon, though I think we rode (really liked the old greens). MPCC has to be one of the world's premier clubs.
I am happy to report that my home club has a nice fleet of ClicGears, though carrying is a bit easier (carried 9 for the first time yesterday since neck surgery couple years ago). Some of Dallas' best private clubs- Northwood, Lakewood, Honors- now allow push carts. I even saw some young kids today in near 100° heat carrying and pushing carts. Heart-warming.
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Lou, add Dallas Athletic Club and Dallas Country Club as well.
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Roger,
I like your idea of dividing by 500. I also understand Bens taxation stance but if carts were "only" $30-40 more per month, I would think clubs could draw more members as many consider carts a death blow to joining when factoring in another $200 per month In addition to dues.
What if carts were $5 instead (the math might equal your divide by 500 plan)? I wonder how many walkers would pass up dirt cheap rides? It would make me think...considering I walk about 75% of the time.
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Wilshire CC- fleet of 18 and ordering more!
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I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness. It's really a team effort.
How ridiculous is it to see cartballers (buggyballers?) hacking up the fairways and not even reach for a sand bottle when they rented a 500+ pound buggy to carry the sand bottle around? It doesn't matter if the buggyballers have the sand with them if they aren't going to use it.
I'm starting to see more and more proper golfers not only putting the sand bottles in their trolleys, but actually using them.
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http://www.golfchannel.com/media/2015-pga-show-push-carts-follow-you/
Good to see the trolley got some airtime on Morning Drive yesterday!
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I would LOVE to have one of these roving carts follow me around. Better than carrying and better than taking a caddie! This is going on my Xmas wish list!
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http://www.golfchannel.com/media/2015-pga-show-push-carts-follow-you/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/2015-pga-show-push-carts-follow-you/)
Good to see the trolley got some airtime on Morning Drive yesterday!
I use a Kangaroo motorcaddy, basic model, not remote control. Old Technology. A couple of weeks ago I tried a Caddy Trek that one of my golf club buddies loaned to me. It can follow you, or you can use a remote to direct it ahead of you. The "follow" mode worked best for me. The remote forward wasn't as good -- too hard to micro manage. The difficulties with the follow mode: The remote is normally fastened on your belt in the back, and it cannot be covered by a jacket or sweater. It's four wheeled, and if the fronts are set sideways to your direction of travel when you start, it won't go. Also, no accessories like a basket or cup holder, both of which are available with the Kangaroo. (My buddy fashioned his own for his Caddy Trek.) My guess is that the Caddy Trek will be refined over the next few years and will bcome a great product. For now I'm sticking with the Kangaroo, but I'll watch how the Caddy Trek (and other makers' brands) evolve.
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Pleased to learn that Orchard Lake CC is allowing trolleys in the non prime golf season. Getting back to our roots is a process.
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Pleased to learn that Orchard Lake CC is allowing trolleys in the non prime golf season. Getting back to our roots is a process.
Tell us more about our roots.
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Was the trolley invented in America or abroad?
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A quick search revealed this:
Before the 1940’s, unless golfers were fortunate enough to play golf at country clubs where caddies carried the players’ golf bags, most folks carried their own. However in the early 1940’s, Bruce Williamson designed and introduced the first pull golf cart in Portland, Oregon. It was not particularly high tech to say the least. Bruce created his new pull golf cart from two lawn mower wheels with flat tires, mounted on an up-and-down folding, spring-suspension chassis. A standard golf bag was attached to the chassis. Golfers could now pull their golf bag behind them while walking the links. And although it wasn’t elegant, it sure beat carrying a heavy, fully loaded golf bag. Over the years other golf cart manufacturers entered the pull cart market and the basic design evolved. Now, let’s flash forward to 2002 when the Bag Boy Company developed their first-ever push golf cart.
http://www.intheholegolf.com/articles/113/a-push-pull-golf-carts.html
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Steve - when I was a member @ Riverside in Portland, everybody took a pull cart whenever it was wet (which was fairly often outside of the dry summer months). There was zero feeling that the carts were "beneath" us, mostly because it kept our pre-stand bags off the wet turf.
Of course, Portland golf clubs allowed jeans during the winter too.
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The Golf WRX guide to buying a push cart:
http://www.golfwrx.com/253269/the-golfwrx-guide-to-purchasing-a-push-cart/
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Toledo CC is now allowing trolleys when caddies aren't available!
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Billy Horschel thinks push carts are horschit.
https://twitter.com/BillyHo_Golf/status/605117396559478785
https://twitter.com/BillyHo_Golf/status/605126748880183298
https://twitter.com/lemons195/status/605130342832336896
https://twitter.com/JDTomlinson3/status/605151308136521729
More on his timeline at https://twitter.com/billyho_golf
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''My favorite was listening to my Sirius XM PGA Tour explayer colleagues rant about how bad pushcarts "looked" in the NCAA, while they take caddies in events and ride carts at home''- Jeff Warne
well said
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Chris DiMarco was urging the reigning NCAA champion to ditch the pushcart at Chambers Bay on Golf Channel's Morning Drive earlier today. Without saying it outright, he seemed to be implying that there's some stigma surrounding using a pushcart. My first thought was whether he's on the payroll at EZ-Go or ClubCar?
I think it's easy to say this when you have a caddie toting your bag. I have zero problem with folks riding, pushing or carrying (or whatever other means you use to play golf), but why disparage how someone plays golf. Live and let live.
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Donald Trump believes push'pullcarts are a "stigma" too at Ferry's Point. They're ok at Bethpage Black:
http://www.golfdigest.com/story/man-about-golf-a-plea-for-pushcarts-david-owen
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Growing up in Winnipeg, Canada, I would always carry my bag. When I moved to Virginia, one summer round in excess of 90 degrees with high humidity was enough to change my mind. I now use a push cart exclusively when I walk. I see the problem with courses not allowing push-carts (or walking) is the possible negative financial impact when cart fees are removed for a significant portion of the daily rounds. Not sure how this would impact private clubs. I can only assume that the great old privates were built to walk (ie. tees close to greens) and that those who worry about the look that push carts add are more concerned about the "prestige" associated with their club rather than the golfing experience. As for Ferry Point, it is sad to see "elitism" and "look" trump practicality and openness generally associated with public municipal golf. If anyone out there wants a great walk, PM me for Rustic Canyon...the best walkable course I have found in 20 years of playing the game.
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Chris DiMarco was urging the reigning NCAA champion to ditch the pushcart at Chambers Bay on Golf Channel's Morning Drive earlier today. Without saying it outright, he seemed to be implying that there's some stigma surrounding using a pushcart. My first thought was whether he's on the payroll at EZ-Go or ClubCar?
I think it's easy to say this when you have a caddie toting your bag. I have zero problem with folks riding, pushing or carrying (or whatever other means you use to play golf), but why disparage how someone plays golf. Live and let live.
Chris DeMarco is a tool on this topic. He was touting this during the NCAA's on Sirius XM-go find a real cause.
He kept talking about "how bad they look"
He said " he earned the right" to a caddie.
he now plays in a cart or with a caddie.
Billy Horschel same stupid argument on Twitter.
Must be a Gator thing.
Amazing to me how something so common in the home of golf could "look bad"
Now I do understand they can cause turf damage, same as carts,
but let's not ban them because of how they look.
Enough people play golf for all the wrong reasons already.
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How do trolleys cause turf damage? Especially compared to the lbs/ sq in under the typical golfer's foot? Allowing you to pull the across the green is what would actually lesson damage caused by excessive traffic on the same spots.
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How do trolleys cause turf damage? Especially compared to the lbs/ sq in under the typical golfer's foot? Allowing you to pull the across the green is what would actually lesson damage caused by excessive traffic on the same spots.
Wayne.
One look around the greens of most UK courses would show you.Pretty severe in some cases unless traffic patterns are rerouted via signs.
especially around bunkers are areas where traffic is forced (or a path of least resistance is taken)
carriers spread the wear more evenly which is why Bandon has trollys pull over the green sp the traffic spread out.
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But it isn't the trolleys that causes the damage, it is the path taken by the golfers which is caused by the silly rule to keep trolleys from greens. My club has wear patterns similar to what you describe but I would say that far less than 25% of our golfers use trolleys. People just naturally try to minimize the distance walked.
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But it isn't the trolleys that causes the damage, it is the path taken by the golfers which is caused by the silly rule to keep trolleys from greens. My club has wear patterns similar to what you describe but I would say that far less than 25% of our golfers use trolleys. People just naturally try to minimize the distance walked.
agreed it's the traffic patterns and that trolleys should be allowed on greens
pretty severe damage around many UK courses though.
maybe the 25% are causing 75% of the damage ;) ;D
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How do trolleys cause turf damage? Especially compared to the lbs/ sq in under the typical golfer's foot? Allowing you to pull the across the green is what would actually lesson damage caused by excessive traffic on the same spots.
Wayne,
motorized trolley cause damage through wheels slightly slipping/spinning on the turf which is often so slight that most won't notice it but it still adds to the stress on the turf. Also, the modern 3-wheeled push trolleys also do more damage than the old fashioned pull behind models.
Jon
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Also, the modern 3-wheeled push trolleys also do more damage than the old fashioned pull behind models.
Jon
And at least for some people they put a lot more pressure on the back than the 2 wheel pull trolleys. At my club we managed to approve 24 trolleys on a first come, first served basis. However they are club owned and all the same, 3 wheeled push trolleys. I lost the battle to have 2 wheeled trolleys as well.
The right/privilege to use trolleys is revoked with slow play or if they get close to greens.
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How do trolleys cause turf damage? Especially compared to the lbs/ sq in under the typical golfer's foot? Allowing you to pull the across the green is what would actually lesson damage caused by excessive traffic on the same spots.
Wayne,
Also, the modern 3-wheeled push trolleys also do more damage than the old fashioned pull behind models.
Jon
Jon, is there any science behind this? Doesn't it make sense that splitting a fixed load between three wheels rather than two would decrease damage? It's a lot easier to maneuver a three wheel push cart versus a two wheel pull behind.
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How do trolleys cause turf damage? Especially compared to the lbs/ sq in under the typical golfer's foot? Allowing you to pull the across the green is what would actually lesson damage caused by excessive traffic on the same spots.
Wayne,
Also, the modern 3-wheeled push trolleys also do more damage than the old fashioned pull behind models.
Jon
Jon, is there any science behind this? Doesn't it make sense that splitting a fixed load between three wheels rather than two would decrease damage? It's a lot easier to maneuver a three wheel push cart versus a two wheel pull behind.
I believe you are pushing at least partially down on a 3 wheel cart. It takes more effort to walk through rough. Whilst you are partially pulling up on a 2 wheel pull trolley. Whether this damages the course more or not i dont know. I certainly think it is less effort to pull on 2 wheels, and the trolleys are lighter.
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Donald Trump believes push'pullcarts are a "stigma" too at Ferry's Point. They're ok at Bethpage Black:
http://www.golfdigest.com/story/man-about-golf-a-plea-for-pushcarts-david-owen
It never occurred to me that Donald Trump was capable of actually making something more classy. Turns out I was wrong. :D
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How do trolleys cause turf damage? Especially compared to the lbs/ sq in under the typical golfer's foot? Allowing you to pull the across the green is what would actually lesson damage caused by excessive traffic on the same spots.
Wayne,
Also, the modern 3-wheeled push trolleys also do more damage than the old fashioned pull behind models.
Jon
Jon, is there any science behind this? Doesn't it make sense that splitting a fixed load between three wheels rather than two would decrease damage? It's a lot easier to maneuver a three wheel push cart versus a two wheel pull behind.
Bill,
basically by pushing you are causing a downward pressure on the front wheel and combined with this wheel been fixed on most models it leads to sheering. Spreading the load only decreases the ground pressure per wheel though as most of these 3 wheelers seem to have narrower wheels than the pull behind ones I doubt even this is the case.
Jon
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How do trolleys cause turf damage? Especially compared to the lbs/ sq in under the typical golfer's foot? Allowing you to pull the across the green is what would actually lesson damage caused by excessive traffic on the same spots.
Wayne,
Also, the modern 3-wheeled push trolleys also do more damage than the old fashioned pull behind models.
Jon
Jon, is there any science behind this? Doesn't it make sense that splitting a fixed load between three wheels rather than two would decrease damage? It's a lot easier to maneuver a three wheel push cart versus a two wheel pull behind.
Bill,
basically by pushing you are causing a downward pressure on the front wheel and combined with this wheel been fixed on most models it leads to sheering. Spreading the load only decreases the ground pressure per wheel though as most of these 3 wheelers seem to have narrower wheels than the pull behind ones I doubt even this is the case.
Jon
I'll need some more scientific evidence before buying that. The tires of the Sun Mountain or Clic Carts are inflated pneumatic tires, versus the flat uninflated tires of typical pull carts. I really believe the three wheelers are less load intensive, which should determine potential damage.
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Back to the original question -- isn't it as easy as asking if they're allowed and if they club says no that they should let you know when they change their mind?
I started using a sun mountain cart this year and don't buy the pushing down causing damage. I'm fairly tall and even with the handle at it's highest position I push it parallel to the ground, pushing 'up' would take a much bigger effort. I've never seen push cart damage and would guess 50% of players use them at my home course. I have left the brake 'locked' on occasion but even that 3 ft doesn't seem to hurt anything.
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Buck
I too question the idea of 3 wheelers causing more damage than 2 wheelers. In any case, golfers must get around the course and if they aren't carrying, then we must accept some wear and tear on courses due to transporting the golfer and clubs. I think we must also lower expections for conditioning around greens...there should and will be some damage to the turf....the design should accomodate this fact. This is one area where people forget that heavy bunkering reduces traffic options. When courses are not designed for higher cappers part of the problem is course flow. Because of lack of options, the damage caused by trolleys and carts is more acute, so clubs make golfers park their carts and trolleys away from the green (and their ball!)....thus slowing down play. The form and function of course design is intertwined in ways golfers don't notice. Sure, we can say if cart riders were sensible they wouldn't cause so much damage, but we all know golfers aren't sensible because many will pay $300 for a game ;D So, now we have dreaded cart paths....its all part of modern golf concepts of pristine conditions, championship difficulty and laziness...the three main tenets of modern golf ::)
Ciao
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Bill,
if you really believe that then why not provide the scientific reports that back it up. Just out of interest who do you think would have done such research?
Sean,
I too accept that golfers need to get round the course and that if golfers need to use trollies then there will be some more wear and tear. I would however suggest the majority of people using trollies are capable of carrying and encouraging these players to carry would be a big move towards speeding the game up to where it used to be.
Jon
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I [size=78%]appreciate that the thread was raised about private US clubs, where perhaps caddies may be more readily available, but the subject seems to have drifted a little from this aspect.[/size]
So, a couple of general points -
Are we just discussing fit strong men here? What about ladies and seniors of both genders as these folk usually have less strength and thus less ability to carry.
Whilst it is probably true that many folk who use either a powered or push/pull trolley could carry a bag, could they carry for 18-holes 14 clubs, a few balls, waterproofs and an umbrella as well? I doubt all could. [size=78%]In addition, whether they could carry for all 18-holes and still play with the same frequency, ie number of rounds per week, as when using some kind of trolley is doubtful.[/size]
Greenkeepers I've discussed this matter with have all said it's the players feet not the trolley wheels, that cause most the wear and tear and winter muddiness.
Less play because folk can't carry is a potential outcome if folk arn't allowed trolleys, can't carry and no other alternative, like caddies or buggies are available ......... and less play ultimately means less revenue.
Quite a few UK courses are using rubber mesh imbedded into paths in busy areas like tee-to-fairway routes. These seem to provide grip, reduce muddiness and the grass grows through the mesh and can thus be cut with the usual mowers.
Atb
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Thomas,
Just for the record I am not against trollies nor do I think they add much to the wear and tear on a course especially through the summer.
Jon
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Thomas,
Just for the record I am not against trollies nor do I think they add much to the wear and tear on a course especially through the summer.
Jon
[size=78%]No worries Jon, I wasn't having a go. :) [/size]
Atb
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Sean,
I too accept that golfers need to get round the course and that if golfers need to use trollies then there will be some more wear and tear. I would however suggest the majority of people using trollies are capable of carrying and encouraging these players to carry would be a big move towards speeding the game up to where it used to be.
Jon
Jon-
How does carrying a bag speed up the game versus using a push-cart? I don't see any difference except that I don't slow down my pace the last 4 holes when I use my push cart and I invariably do when I carry. I also took several shots off my score which has to speed things up.
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I [size=78%]appreciate that the thread was raised about private US clubs, where perhaps caddies may be more readily available, but the subject seems to have drifted a little from this aspect.[/size]
So, a couple of general points - This is such a fun discussion, I'll chime in again.
Are we just discussing fit strong men here? What about ladies and seniors of both genders as these folk usually have less strength and thus less ability to carry.
I'm 73 years old and I prefer using a Kangaroo motorcaddy to riding in a cart. I believe that from a cardiovascular stand point I'm more fit than the average person, not just the average 73-year-old. 15 to 20 years ago I carried. Then I switched to pull cart, then a push cart, and three years ago to the Kangaroo. On my hilly course, even the push cart wasn't enough help. It wasn't the endurance aspect, but rather the muscular-skeletal issues that were getting me down. All that having been said, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the youngest, most fit, strongest buck using a push cart if he desires, or even using a caddie if one is available. I suppose if my club banned motorcaddies I'd ride (we don't have caddies, and I'm not fond of them anyway), but not happily. I don't see the matter of club mobility as part of the game -- sorry, to those that do.
Whilst it is probably true that many folk who use either a powered or push/pull trolley could carry a bag, could they carry for 18-holes 14 clubs, a few balls, waterproofs and an umbrella as well? I doubt all could. [size=78%]In addition, whether they could carry for all 18-holes and still play with the same frequency, ie number of rounds per week, as when using some kind of trolley is doubtful.[/size]
See above.
Greenkeepers I've discussed this matter with have all said it's the players feet not the trolley wheels, that cause most the wear and tear and winter muddiness.
The whole thing about trolleys messing up the course is ridiculous. The question is traffic pattern wear, regardless of foot or wheel. Beyond that, has anyone mentioned the kind of turf? We play on Bermuda grass and that stuff is really tough. So, maybe it makes a little difference, depending on the kind of turf. I just don't know, but I doubt it.
Less play because folk can't carry is a potential outcome if folk arn't allowed trolleys, can't carry and no other alternative, like caddies or buggies are available ......... and less play ultimately means less revenue.
Stated another way, it might mean less golf, and would that be "good for the game."
Quite a few UK courses are using rubber mesh imbedded into paths in busy areas like tee-to-fairway routes. These seem to provide grip, reduce muddiness and the grass grows through the mesh and can thus be cut with the usual mowers.
I have experienced this very practical solution in the UK, yet not in the USA, which is not to say it does not exist here. I fear, however, that it would be derided as low class in the USA by the same folks the deride trolleys as low class.
Atb
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Bill,
if you really believe that then why not provide the scientific reports that back it up. Just out of interest who do you think would have done such research?
Well Jon, it was your original assertion that three wheeled push carts do more damage than two wheeled pull carts! You sounded so positive I figured for sure there was research.
I think it's simple physics, there will be less weight bearing on the wheels when there are three than two. Therefore any ruts, etc, should be not as deep as if half the weight is concentrated on each wheel.
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Bill,
the demand of scientific studies cuts both ways and the lack of such studies (as far as I am aware) to prove my suggestion certainly does not validate yours. You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage.
Buck,
I do not know in your case but carrying allows the golfer to progress in a more direct line. However, regardless of how you go round the course 3 to 3.5 should be possible for most 3 & 4balls.
Jon
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Bill,
. . . You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage. . . .
Jon
Jon, Here's some additional Newtonian physics analysis, backed by my own experience as a former pusher. Think of the three wheel push trolley as a lever, with the back wheels being the fulcrum, the handle being one end of the lever, and the front wheel the other. The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel. From that I deduce that any supposed friction of the front wheel on the ground is neutralized.
You are quite welcome ;) , Carl
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The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel.
I totally agree - when you push down on the handle you are raising the front wheel. The only way to put downward pressure on the front wheel is to lift up on the handle which is unlikely unless one uses an underhanded grip or the handle is above the shoulder level on the person pushing - which is unlikely.
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Bill,
. . . You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage. . . .
Jon
Jon, Here's some additional Newtonian physics analysis, backed by my own experience as a former pusher. Think of the three wheel push trolley as a lever, with the back wheels being the fulcrum, the handle being one end of the lever, and the front wheel the other. The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel. From that I deduce that any supposed friction of the front wheel on the ground is neutralized.
You are quite welcome ;) , Carl
Thanks Carl,
I never realised the front wheel never actually contacted the ground. Makes you wonder what it is there for really and how that third wheel rack ends up in the dew. Do you think three wheeler users carry an extra wheel on a stick to add it in? That would make them a bit slow no?
I have already said I thought it would be minimal in effect.
Wayne,
is it really the only way to put downward pressure on the front wheel? Would not the weight of the clubs do that?
Jon
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Bill,
. . . You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage. . . .
Jon
Jon, Here's some additional Newtonian physics analysis, backed by my own experience as a former pusher. Think of the three wheel push trolley as a lever, with the back wheels being the fulcrum, the handle being one end of the lever, and the front wheel the other. The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel. From that I deduce that any supposed friction of the front wheel on the ground is neutralized.
You are quite welcome ;) , Carl
Thanks Carl,
I never realised the front wheel never actually contacted the ground. . . . It does actually touch the ground some, just a little more lightly than you might think, although for big quick turns I tended to lift the front wheel off the ground entirely (by pushing down a little on the handle) and turn on two.
Wayne,
is it really the only way to put downward pressure on the front wheel? Would not the weight of the clubs do that?
Jon
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Yes the weight of the bag will put downward pressure but that is going to be rather insignificant?
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http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2002/020918.pdf
http://www.3-men-in-a-bunker.co.uk/golf-products-and-reviews/hedgehog-golf-wheels-discount-voucher
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Yes the weight of the bag will put downward pressure but that is going to be rather insignificant?
Of course, the entire purpose of the trolley is carry weight. You could push around an empty trolley, I guess, and just carry your bag. I think that would really be the best way to minimize damage to the course. ;D
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Anyone used a Segway on a golf course? :)
Atb
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http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2002/020918.pdf (http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2002/020918.pdf)
Reasonable article, yet doesn't cite data or consider different types of turf, though the references cited may be data-based. I didn't try to look them up. The general conclusion is that traffic patterns, particularly around the greens and tees, is the real problem, as I (and others) suggested above. Also, although three-wheelers (trolleys) are mentioned, the author does not really distinguish between two- and three-wheelers.
http://www.3-men-in-a-bunker.co.uk/golf-products-and-reviews/hedgehog-golf-wheels-discount-voucher (http://www.3-men-in-a-bunker.co.uk/golf-products-and-reviews/hedgehog-golf-wheels-discount-voucher)
A wild looking product. Not sure about the validity of the seller's claims. Of course, the force, downward is the same, but the smaller points of contact with the ground means that pressure on those points will be much greater over the smaller area.
See:http://resources.yesican-science.ca/lpdd/genres/press1.html (http://resources.yesican-science.ca/lpdd/genres/press1.html)
See also:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force), particularly the section on quantum mechanics ;D ; or a simpler version, http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-2/Types-of-Forces (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-2/Types-of-Forces)
and yet again: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-surface-area-affects-the-force-of-friction.html (http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-surface-area-affects-the-force-of-friction.html)
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Good story here:
http://www.golfdigest.com/story/new-pushcart-turns-reluctant-rider-back-into-walker
When Maryvale reopens, as it's a compact routing with tees near greens and no housing, I intend to resume walking. I've been a reluctant rider too long after suffering a bout of plantar fasciitis.
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December is always a good time to get the trolley thread up and center. Any new clubs to celebrate?
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It was cool to see Jordan Speith pushing a trolley at Royal Melbourne the other day. Hopefully he will start doing it when he is home, also.
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It was cool to see Jordan Speith pushing a trolley at Royal Melbourne the other day. Hopefully he will start doing it when he is home, also.
Yes, I agree. It's funny how ''When in Rome'' goes.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img905/5993/gCG4FE.jpg)
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I realize this an old topic, but I thought it relevant to my company, Walker Trolleys, that launched our Kickstarter today to create a trolley that combines classic and modern design in a clean and sleek look. While we know our product won't appeal to all golfers and for many the cheapest model will do just fine, but for clubs that either don't allow them today because push carts are considered cheap or are looking for a product that better suits the history and tradition of their club, we hope they would consider our push cart as a solution. The goal at the end of the day is to make trolleys as accepted and popular as they are across the pond(s). While we have a long way to go, maybe we can make it there one day.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/walkertrolleys/walker-trolley-a-push-cart-for-the-player-and-purist/
If you have any interest, here's a picture of our trolley:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0067/8356/5909/files/IMG_2112a_540x.jpg?v=1569263933)
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Nineteen pages on trolleys? Really? Not that I read them, of course, but this has to be reflective that we will bullshit about anything.
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Nineteen pages on trolleys? Really? Not that I read them, of course, but this has to be reflective that we will bullshit about anything.
+1
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Love this thread. Trolleys were one of the things that most impressed me "the first time I knew a place was different," in words of a recent thread. As a Yank on first links trip in 2013, observing the members' trolleys on some of the consensus greatest courses in the world revealed to me what a crock of s&^t many US golf conventions are. That trip caused my first visits to this site, and to this thread, and I was grateful to learn I wasn't the only one to prefer US clubs with scores of ClicGears hanging in the bag room to clubs with caddie shacks and bag drop crews. "A course where you can carry your bag at any time beats one where you cannot. . . . . A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status."
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Well just got an e-mail about a trolley program at my club that didn't previously allow personal trolleys (it was recent that the club purchased trolleys that could be rented).
"This past spring we all fell on some unprecedented times due to Covid-19...to help with the electric golf cart demand we waived any trolley fees and even allowed the Members at the time to temporarily bring their own personal trolleys."
They've now created a program where you can pay an annual fee to use your own trolley on the courses.
Any guesses on the cost?
For reference the trail fee to use personal carts is $2000ish for single and $3000ish for husband/wife.
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Well just got an e-mail about a trolley program at my club that didn't previously allow personal trolleys (it was recent that the club purchased trolleys that could be rented).
"This past spring we all fell on some unprecedented times due to Covid-19...to help with the electric golf cart demand we waived any trolley fees and even allowed the Members at the time to temporarily bring their own personal trolleys."
They've now created a program where you can pay an annual fee to use your own trolley on the courses.
Any guesses on the cost?
God, I hope it's no more than like $400 a year or thereabouts...
For reference the trail fee to use personal carts is $2000ish for single and $3000ish for husband/wife.
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Well just got an e-mail about a trolley program at my club that didn't previously allow personal trolleys (it was recent that the club purchased trolleys that could be rented).
"This past spring we all fell on some unprecedented times due to Covid-19...to help with the electric golf cart demand we waived any trolley fees and even allowed the Members at the time to temporarily bring their own personal trolleys."
They've now created a program where you can pay an annual fee to use your own trolley on the courses.
Any guesses on the cost?
God, I hope it's no more than like $400 a year or thereabouts...
For reference the trail fee to use personal carts is $2000ish for single and $3000ish for husband/wife.
Often clubs that have a push cart fleet offer a yearly rate for rental. Pre COVID-19 I can’t recall any club that had their own carts to rent that also allowed someone to bring their own. The exception might have been a personally owned motorized pushcart that was stored and maintained at the club(for a fee of course). That said if only the owner is handling and setting up the trolley then that has to go in the plus column as a safety precaution.
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Well just got an e-mail about a trolley program at my club that didn't previously allow personal trolleys (it was recent that the club purchased trolleys that could be rented).
"This past spring we all fell on some unprecedented times due to Covid-19...to help with the electric golf cart demand we waived any trolley fees and even allowed the Members at the time to temporarily bring their own personal trolleys."
They've now created a program where you can pay an annual fee to use your own trolley on the courses.
Any guesses on the cost?
For reference the trail fee to use personal carts is $2000ish for single and $3000ish for husband/wife.
Getting to walk is all about the money. Thanks for the post.
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We have a deal going on that is about the money for 99% of the members. Mandatory forecaddies on the weekends. I was wondering how far can you push the envelope with a forecaddie and not come off as rude. I'll list some options we have discussed. The first being the most likely.
1. Play somewhere else on the weekends.
2. Pay the forecaddie and ask him to go home.
3. Give the forecaddie a rake and ask him to go ahead of us and assure that every bunker is prepared.
4. Ask the forecaddie to do his job as normal but to not look for any balls, give any advice or ever get in front of the group.
Any other suggestions?
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Melvyn
My next project is to allow dogs on the course during play. Same issues. Common to see in the UK, hen's teeth here. Of course, we have rattlers and bobcats that make things a bit more interesting.
Cheers
First, trollies. At White Bear Yacht Club we have a caddie program but also allow push carts. This took some time to get done as it's an old club. Caddies were previously required until 4pm (if available) when I joined. But today, for a variety of reasons, caddies are now required until 1pm- and of course we have had none this year. But because of demand and persistent discussion- and yes, it is useful to have the Golf Committee chair in favor!- we now allow push carts, electric or manual, and provide 15 for rental. Members may also use their own. The club doesn't store or charge member units, and they are not allowed if caddies are available (an electric cart may be taken instead of a caddie, but the point is to walk). We continue to work to allow electric trolley storage and charging (A number of us have suggested that the club obtain their own and rent as in the UK but so far no dice).
Dogs are another issue. Our club passed a rule banning dogs for no apparent reason. It didn't come from the Golf Committee, the Board just decided. Almost no one brought a dog, and I can't fighure out the reasoning. At Quail Lodge in Carmel Valley, where I play in the winter, dogs are welcome.
All the best
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We have a deal going on that is about the money for 99% of the members. Mandatory forecaddies on the weekends. I was wondering how far can you push the envelope with a forecaddie and not come off as rude. I'll list some options we have discussed. The first being the most likely.
1. Play somewhere else on the weekends.
2. Pay the forecaddie and ask him to go home.
3. Give the forecaddie a rake and ask him to go ahead of us and assure that every bunker is prepared.
4. Ask the forecaddie to do his job as normal but to not look for any balls, give any advice or ever get in front of the group.
Any other suggestions?
JK - The first option is the least confrontational one. I think it would be important that you politely make it known that you were doing this for the message to get through to the powers that be.
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Any guesses on the cost?
For reference the trail fee to use personal carts is $2000ish for single and $3000ish for husband/wife.
$900 for an individual
$1700 for a family
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We have a deal going on that is about the money for 99% of the members. Mandatory forecaddies on the weekends. I was wondering how far can you push the envelope with a forecaddie and not come off as rude. I'll list some options we have discussed. The first being the most likely.
1. Play somewhere else on the weekends.
2. Pay the forecaddie and ask him to go home.
3. Give the forecaddie a rake and ask him to go ahead of us and assure that every bunker is prepared.
4. Ask the forecaddie to do his job as normal but to not look for any balls, give any advice or ever get in front of the group.
Any other suggestions?
I’ll go with #2 since I have actually done it.