Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Morgan Clawson on June 19, 2011, 03:52:36 PM
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I'm headed out to Montana to check out Yellowstone and go to a wedding
Is Old Works worth a side trip?
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I'm headed out to Montana to check out Yellowstone and go to a wedding
Is Old Works worth a side trip?
Morgan
Old works is terrific. You will enjoty it and the price. very memorable black sand in bunkers.
Or, stop by Teton Pines in Jackson Hole, south of Yellowstone. Very fun!
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I'm headed out to Montana to check out Yellowstone and go to a wedding
Is Old Works worth a side trip?
Depends where you will be, exactly, and how much you want to travel. Old Works is worth "a day" trip. If you can drive 10 hours, play golf, and drive 10 hours home (which I've done) then your definition of a day is different from someone who considers 3 hours, a round and 3 more hours to be grueling or something. But if your situation would require an overnight stay in Anaconda, MT, I'd probably skip it. But its a good course to see, if only for the black bunkers.
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I'm headed out to Montana to check out Yellowstone and go to a wedding
Is Old Works worth a side trip?
Depends where you will be, exactly, and how much you want to travel. Old Works is worth "a day" trip. If you can drive 10 hours, play golf, and drive 10 hours home (which I've done) then your definition of a day is different from someone who considers 3 hours, a round and 3 more hours to be grueling or something. But if your situation would require an overnight stay in Anaconda, MT, I'd probably skip it. But its a good course to see, if only for the black bunkers.
Jamie,
What course was worth a 20 hr roundtrip drive (just curious)?
Thanks for the info as I am hoping to make a side-trip to visit Old Works, though that too will be a very long day (drive from Coeur D'Alene, AM golf at Old Works, PM golf at RCCC, drive back to Coeur D'Alene).
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I just was there. It's really a treat and in great shape right now. The front nine has some wonderful width and movement. The back, starts to narrow for a few holes and then comes back to the feel of the front nine. Great example of responsible stewardship from a company that got stuck with a massive clean up. Plenty of run up options to greens benched, typically between mounds that were man made.
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Old works is definitely worth checking out, black bunker sand, reclamation golf course, showcases the history of the property very well. Unfortunately, the nuts and bolts of the golf course are not as spectacular.
The only other good golf course in the area is Canyon River, just outside of Missoula.
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The only other good golf course in the area is Canyon River, just outside of Missoula.
And who would be the architect of Canyon River? ;)
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I've driven by Old Works more times than I can count now on Hwy 90. One of these times I need to stop in and play it.
Ditto for Canyon River.
P.S. Interesting Designer for CR, he has quite the lineup of projects he's been involved with.
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I drove over from Bozeman to play it one day. I didn't think much of the course but I did enjoy the trip as well as trying to hit out of those black bunkers.
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Morgan, I'm in the midst of piecing together a trip the first week in July to golf at Canyon River, Old Works, Big Sky, Devils Tower (Wyoming), Red Rock (South Dakota), and Links of North Dakota. Hopefully I can do up a report when we're back home. If you happen to play Old Works, please give us the details. Thanks.
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I just was there. It's really a treat and in great shape right now. The front nine has some wonderful width and movement. The back, starts to narrow for a few holes and then comes back to the feel of the front nine. Great example of responsible stewardship from a company that got stuck with a massive clean up. Plenty of run up options to greens benched, typically between mounds that were man made.
I agree with Adam, good course. If you are "in the area" then I'd definitely play it.
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Morgan, I'm in the midst of piecing together a trip the first week in July to golf at Canyon River, Old Works, Big Sky, Devils Tower (Wyoming), Red Rock (South Dakota), and Links of North Dakota. Hopefully I can do up a report when we're back home. If you happen to play Old Works, please give us the details. Thanks.
Jim, I'd suggest throwing in a round at Bully Pulpit on that trip as well. It's about three hours from LND, but but it's south, so if you're hitting something in South Dakota along the way, it's worth the stop. The scenery alone is fantastic. There are a few gimmicky holes, but they needed to work the Badlands in one way or another. The whole course is a lot of fun. And if you've got an hour and a half to spare on either side, the scenic drive through Teddy Roosevelt National Park is terrific.
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I'll second Bully Pulpit. I prefer it to Old Works. Traveling Rapid City to Williston makes it nearly right along the way.
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Jim,
That sounds like a pretty cool trip. I'll actually be out there a week after you...
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Heck, if you are out this way play Hawktree in Bismarck, as well. Let me know, I might be able to play it with you. LND is not to be missed, but if you ask me, I'd play Hawktree 3 times over 1 at Bully Pulpit. It is, however, worth a see.
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Heck, if you are out this way play Hawktree in Bismarck, as well. Let me know, I might be able to play it with you. LND is not to be missed, but if you ask me, I'd play Hawktree 3 times over 1 at Bully Pulpit. It is, however, worth a see.
Hawktree is probably a course I'd prefer to play everyday over Bully Pulpit, but if I only had time for one round at one of those courses, it would be Bully Pulpit just for the scenery (not that Hawktree wasn't also in a nice location). And if they're playing Old Works, they'd get to experience at least one course with black sand bunkers. But I enjoyed all three of the North Dakota courses. And I think the pass was $125 when I played all three, which is a really incredible deal. All of this is making me realize I need to plan another drive back to Sidney, MT to visit family and hit up some good tracks on the trip.
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Thanks guys. We've played Hawktree, Bully Pulpit, and Links of North Dakota each a couple of times in the past 3 years, all on our annual Couples (4 couples) Golf Trip each August. First week of July, my wife and I are heading over to western Montana, and getting over to Devils Tower and Red Rock is stretching things a bit already.
Hate to sidetrack Morgan's thread. Any more comments on Old Works?
Adam, you mentioned that the course is in great shape right now. Curious as to what the weather's been like there this spring. Here in midwest Canada, we had record snowfalls this past winter, a late snowmelt (local courses didn't open until Easter weekend) and a wet spring to date.
Jim
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Jim, I was only passing through, but, I understand that Montana has had the same weather as you. But, I suspect the great conditions were a result of 1) a possible break in the rain, the week before my arrival (see the RCCC thread) and 2) where ,and on what, the course resides. It looks like a site that would dry quickly, and since it's a reclamation project, the underlying soil might be very porous. And when I say perfect, I don't mean emerald green, it had a nice mix of color to it, which made me want to play ground game shots.
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If you're going to Montana, isn't Rock Creek worth a side trip?
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RCCC is private, correct?
Access?
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Rock Creek is my 1st choice of course. I emailed them a request, but I haven't heard back from them yet... :'(
But thanks to you posters I'm intrigued by Links of ND, and it's not as far out of my way to drive. Thanks!
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Your drive from West Yellowstone would take about 3- 3 1/2 hours...provided you know where you are going. Old Works, in my opinion is not worth that kind of drive. I live about 90 minutes from Anaconda and I have made the drive over to play OW exactly once...Canyon River and The Ranch Club (formerly Phantom Hills) in Missoula are better courses...in my opinion.
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As I’ve said before, the contrast between OW and RCCC is staggering. On one the golf is used to reclaim and beautify the town’s toxic dump. On the other the golf sits so beautifully on a wonderful, natural landscape, not to change it, but compliment it in the grandest manner. Play them both if at all possible. RC rewards the effort getting there. OW is fun and twists your perspective another way. The front nine at OW is very good, as are the first two holes on the back, if slightly quirky and difficult. The rest of the back loses a little steam. You’ll have fun. I played it when it opened and many times since. I still enjoy it. Disclaimer: I have a pal with a lovely cabin on a pretty lake twenty minutes from Anaconda. We’re always in a good mood when we get to the golf.
RC is simply superb.
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Old works is definitely worth checking out, black bunker sand, reclamation golf course, showcases the history of the property very well. Unfortunately, the nuts and bolts of the golf course are not as spectacular.
I agree with Ryan. The project itself was pretty amazing, especially if you know what was there before. The entire area was part of a giant superfund site and Nicklaus's people and the engineers involved managed to build a course that fits well with the towns heritage, and highlights some of the old ruins. I think the reason the course drains so well has to do with the EPA remediation requirements. The poisoned land is all still there, but is capped and sealed and there is a complex sub-surface drainage system collecting all excess irrigation and storm water before any water can seep into the poisonous ground and contaminate the ground water. It was a very expensive solution, but one that insures that the course always remains relatively dry.
As for the course, I've played it a number of times over the years and have to say I have probably enjoyed it a bit less each time. There are some nice holes and some interesting decisions to be made here and there, but there are also many ho hum holes that happen to have black bunkers. I'd say it is more interesting for its history, engineering, and novelty than for its golf, but the golf is isn't bad.
As for the drive from West Yellowstone, it is long but a very nice drive depending upon the route one chooses.
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Old works is definitely worth checking out, black bunker sand, reclamation golf course, showcases the history of the property very well. Unfortunately, the nuts and bolts of the golf course are not as spectacular.
I agree with Ryan. The project itself was pretty amazing, especially if you know what was there before. The entire area was part of a giant superfund site and Nicklaus's people and the engineers involved managed to build a course that fits well with the towns heritage, and highlights some of the old ruins. I think the reason the course drains so well has to do with the EPA remediation requirements. The poisoned land is all still there, but is capped and sealed and there is a complex sub-surface drainage system collecting all excess irrigation and storm water before any water can seep into the poisonous ground and contaminate the ground water. It was a very expensive solution, but one that insures that the course always remains relatively dry.
I couldn't find it on their site, but I recall reading some time ago that the water in the creek that runs through course actually leaves the property cleaner than it enters. Their FAQ does say that fish have returned to the creek, which used to be part of the smelting operation. Pretty impressive use of the property if that's the case. I'd love to get back to the area some day, as Butte has played a large role in my family history. My aunt (though not blood related) grew up in Butte, as did my grandmother. My great grandfather died in a mine fire there about 110 years ago.
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I couldn't find it on their site, but I recall reading some time ago that the water in the creek that runs through course actually leaves the property cleaner than it enters. Their FAQ does say that fish have returned to the creek, which used to be part of the smelting operation. Pretty impressive use of the property if that's the case. I'd love to get back to the area some day, as Butte has played a large role in my family history. My aunt (though not blood related) grew up in Butte, as did my grandmother. My great grandfather died in a mine fire there about 110 years ago.
Butte and Anaconda both have great character and fascinating history, and both have experienced their share of tragedies and downtimes over the years. Butte had hundreds of mines, at least as many saloons, and more Irish per capita than anywhere outside of Ireland. Butte and Anaconda each had golf clubs around the turn of last century and had been playing golf for a number of years when A. Findlay designed the Butte Country Club around 1909.
As for Old Works, I cant remember exactly what they did with the creek, but I think it involved lining the banks so that no water from the site could get into the creek. I think the whole project topped 40 million dollars, which has to make it the most expensive community golf course per capita anywhere.
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As for Old Works, I cant remember exactly what they did with the creek, but I think it involved lining the banks so that no water from the site could get into the creek. I think the whole project topped 40 million dollars, which has to make it the most expensive community golf course per capita anywhere.
I thought it was a lot less, and was supposed to actually cost less than it was going to cost to cement over and fence around the facility. I couldn't find anything related to cost (though I didn't look that hard), but this site has a lot of interesting information about the project.
http://www.brownfields.com/Feature/Feature-12-19-02-oldworks.htm
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... I think the whole project topped 40 million dollars, which has to make it the most expensive community golf course per capita anywhere.
Jack's book says it cost 23 million.
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I had read 40 million, but maybe that included other aspects of the project than just the golf course. Whatever the number, it was a lot of a community of 9000 known for its tough economic conditions.
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Old Works is in danger of permanently closing at the end of the month, according to the local paper:
http://mtstandard.com/news/local/old-works-golf-course-may-close-permanently/article_481b3795-d730-59db-beff-e7698e968e78.html (http://mtstandard.com/news/local/old-works-golf-course-may-close-permanently/article_481b3795-d730-59db-beff-e7698e968e78.html)
Here's a Saltzman photo tour:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48889.0.html
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Old Works is in danger of permanently closing at the end of the month, according to the local paper:
It would be a shame if the golf course closed. It's a good course, and it's been used for years as an example of environmental stewardship and remediation.
It's hard to believe that all parties did the deal without specifying who was responsible for the continued operation of the course. [In fact, it's completely impossible; there had to be reams of paperwork about who was responsible for what, so ARCO is either responsible, or they're not.] But it sounds like the course is now just a pawn in the game over the final, larger Superfund settlement.
What is not shocking is that the company that made the mess no longer exists, and the company that took over their assets does not want to deal with their liabilities.
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Old Works is in danger of permanently closing at the end of the month, according to the local paper:
It would be a shame if the golf course closed. It's a good course, and it's been used for years as an example of environmental stewardship and remediation.
It's hard to believe that all parties did the deal without specifying who was responsible for the continued operation of the course. [In fact, it's completely impossible; there had to be reams of paperwork about who was responsible for what, so ARCO is either responsible, or they're not.] But it sounds like the course is now just a pawn in the game over the final, larger Superfund settlement.
What is not shocking is that the company that made the mess no longer exists, and the company that took over their assets does not want to deal with their liabilities.
The article mentions three year-round full-time employees. Does RCCC employ analogous personnel?
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The article mentions three year-round full-time employees. Does RCCC employ analogous personnel?
I don't know Rock Creek's personnel situation for a fact, but I know it's hard to justify very many year-round employees in a place where the winter temps go well below zero for 3-4 months. Like most courses in northern Michigan, they probably keep on the superintendent, assistant, and mechanic. Everybody else is seasonal ... some for 6-8 months of the year and some for 3-4 months in the summer.
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ARCO/BP are scum...the people of Anaconda and Butte know this, as do the people in Montana that have watched them drag their feet on cleaning up the mess that they KNOWINGLY bought years ago.
When you live here in Montana you quickly realize that for better than 100 years the state has been treated like a 3rd world country by the multi-national mining and timber industries. Exploit...take the wealth...run...and leave the consequences for the locals to deal with.
The next big environmental disaster is going to be the "oil and gas" boom over in eastern Montana and the Dakotas.
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ARCO/BP are scum...the people of Anaconda and Butte know this, as do the people in Montana that have watched them drag their feet on cleaning up the mess that they KNOWINGLY bought years ago.
When you live here in Montana you quickly realize that for better than 100 years the state has been treated like a 3rd world country by the multi-national mining and timber industries. Exploit...take the wealth...run...and leave the consequences for the locals to deal with.
The next big environmental disaster is going to be the "oil and gas" boom over in eastern Montana and the Dakotas.
BP was not a good neighbor here on the Gulf either. Eleven workers died due to their established gross negligence but nobody went to jail. Your "third world" analogy is apt.
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Too bad if this course closes. It is very important to the community and it is one of the better public courses in the region. Perhaps most importantly, the course itself was supposed to an integral part of the clean up for what was (is?) the largest environmental superfund site in the nation. Given that the mineral companies stuck Montana with the mess, it should be of no surprise that they are now trying to stick her with the solution.
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I'm not sure how important the course is to the community. The town is small and local play is not that great. I wonder how many rounds are played there these days? I would be shocked if its greater than 25K....
The thing is, Old Works should charge, at a minimum, $125 for a round of golf...current rate is $60 and that includes a cart and range balls...
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Isn't the course important to the community in terms of image, and in terms of a symbol of moving forward from the disasters of the past? It seemed like the project used to be a point of pride in that part of the state, but perhaps this isn't the case anymore.
How do you figure they should charge $125 dollars per round? Who in Anaconda is going to pay that kind of money? Given the market, I'd always thought the course was a bit overpriced, but you are closer to the market than me so I am curious as to why you think it is underpriced?
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Why do I need to pay for someone else's cart and range balls when I play there? Didn't used to be that way. I doubt I'll play there again given that change in fee policy.
$125 is ridiculous. I've never paid more than $35 to play there.
I could understand separate fees for locals vs. out of towners, such as at Chambers Bay, etc. But even $60 is too much for the locals to pay.
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I’ve played there a number of times over the last 17 years. I didn’t keep track, but at least 30 rounds. It was always my impression that the course was very important to the local economy in attracting tourists to a dying mining town, providing a few jobs, and using golf as a dramatic solution to a toxic waste superfund site. Given what was said about how much money was saved by capping with a golf course vs. a total site cleanup, it would seem entirely reasonable to endow the course with enough bucks to make it sustainable. I have no idea what the endowment needs to be. It looks like an expensive course to maintain in the style in which it was created—as a “Nicklaus Signature Course” with wall to wall bent grass in a mountain climate. A deal is a deal, but it would be a real shame for OW to go under.
Affordable golf was always part of mandate. I guess $60/round passes as affordable these days for the traveling golfer. I doubt that it is for the locals.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda,_Montana
Agreed-I can't imagine $60 is viewed as a great value locally
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And there are two other local courses nearby, a nine hole “country club” and the 18 hole Fairmount Hot
Springs, a resort layout. Another couple in Butte. My guess is that they need 25K tourist rounds at $60 or some combination of local rounds + tourist rounds to be sustainable. That’s a pretty tall order given their altitude/season/local economy. Hence the need for an endowment. I hope that they can work something out with BP/ARCO.
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And there are two other local courses nearby, a nine hole “country club” and the 18 hole Fairmount Hot
Springs, a resort layout.
I haven't played it, but when I was in that area (and played Old Works) it was for a family reunion, and we went to the resorts so that the kids could go swimming. I suppose it's technically a golf course, and it's at a resort, but "resort layout" is not the image that pops into my head when I think of Fairmount Hot Springs. 1950s style back and forth tree lined muni in marginal condition is more what comes to mind. I suppose it's golf, and it might be fine for the locals, but it's not really in the same class as Old Works.
$60 with cart seems pretty reasonable to me for people in the area, but it also strikes me as the type of place that could/should do memberships for locals that could push the average cost of a round below that if played frequently. Unfortunatley, the cost of the annual pass isn't on their website at the moment.
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Bill.
I haven't played the other courses either. I'm not a golf snob. I'll play just about anything and have a good time. With OW and RCCC in the area and OW's reasonable rates, why bother? I was commenting on quantity, not quality.
My point was that these other courses aren't maintained at anywhere the level as required at OW and probably are more affordable to the locals. Fairmont has the pools and from a brief look seems to specialize in weddings, reunions, meetings, and other gatherings. Golf is just another activity available. Somebody posted the Wiki link about Anaconda, where it said the average household income was $35K. Not much room for $60/round golf in those households. And 3 golf courses for a town of 9K people is a lot.
To me this means that an affordable local rate at OW won't come close to paying for the maintenance, no matter how much they desire to support the community. They need a lot of tourist rounds to supplement the costs of operation. I wish all of the courses only the best and do sincerely hope they can figure out how to survive. It ain't easy.
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I wonder if the maintenance costs at Old Works are higher than normal due to the elaborate drainage setup and other environmental remediations.
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I wonder if the maintenance costs at Old Works are higher than normal due to the elaborate drainage setup and other environmental remediations.
My guess is no. More a function of design and whatever "JN Signature" means. To look as good as it does, costs a lot of money. The Supers will have to confirm, but I also suspect the bent fairways and greens are more costly. One cost savings is the black bunker sand, the slag. They have a couple of piles of slag that are about a mile long and a hundred feet high. Recommendation: visit the practice bunker before you play; it's different stuff.
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My guess is no. More a function of design and whatever "JN Signature" means. To look as good as it does, costs a lot of money. The Supers will have to confirm, but I also suspect the bent fairways and greens are more costly. One cost savings is the black bunker sand, the slag. They have a couple of piles of slag that are about a mile long and a hundred feet high. Recommendation: visit the practice bunker before you play; it's different stuff.
It has been at least a decade since I have read anything about the course, but for some reason I was thinking that irrigation and/or drainage was complicated and that there was some required water treatment at one end or both ends. This is why I was wondering about potentially higher costs, but it could be that I am misremembering the process.
I've played the course a number of times over the years. I don't mind playing out of the slag bunkers at all.
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The remediation was to cap with clay to prevent toxicity from coming up, and to prevent any toxicity getting into Warm Springs Creek. My understanding is that there is no active system to be maintained to do these things. So no cost. The clay cap does the job.
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Bill.
I haven't played the other courses either. I'm not a golf snob. I'll play just about anything and have a good time. With OW and RCCC in the area and OW's reasonable rates, why bother? I was commenting on quantity, not quality.
I didn't mean to sound snobbish. We didn't avoid playing it because it wasn't up to our standards. My cousins play at Sidney CC all the time, which is fine little course for the town, but nothing to write home about. I'll play just about anywhere anyone has a game set up. But I was just pointing out the the two courses are not really in the same league.
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Bill,
No worries. I didn't mean to imply you were a golf snob. I was just admitting I can have fun on just about any course. I still want to play Fairmont because the owner stopped by to play my course and said he enjoyed himself. My experience of his a drive by only. My Montana golf buddies who have played it don't want to play it again (skipping a round at OW). Simple as that.
I mostly avoid rating discussions and am getting so old that I don't know how many new courses are in my future. The last time I found myself trudging along alone on some windy and wet overseas links, I concluded that playing golf is more fun with friends. If that involves playing a great course, that's as good as it gets. If it doesn't, that's still enjoyable.
Dave
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Old Works was never going to be a "local" course....especially in a town the size of, and with the cultural background, of Anaconda. There simply is not enough money, nor enough golfers, to support the course with local play. However, as a "resort course"..a place to come to for a round or two while traveling through Montana...it has a niche. In fact, OW has large billboards along the Interstate from one end of Montana to the other.
Considering what similar courses (#1 rated in the state) get for a round of golf, $120 with a cart is not out of line. Yeah, that is pretty steep for the locals, but they could offer a less expensive punch card option for the locals or simply a lower rate.
The word is, the course is not going away, and AMCO will continue to give OW money to operate.
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Wouldn't that be #1 rated public? And, I was under the impression it has even lost that position to a Kalispell area course.
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Some of those similarly rated courses are in more well traveled areas too
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Some of those similarly rated courses are in more well traveled areas too
I-90 by Anaconda is probably more traveled. Kalispell area is probably more vacationed. ;)