Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Kyle Henderson on May 12, 2011, 01:01:05 PM
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Royal Melbourne Golf Club’s West Course is justifiably renowned and well-documented. This thread is intended to provide another open door for discussion to include those who have played the course but missed out on earlier threads that examined this hallowed ground.
The first hole, a par 4 of 392 meters (429 yards), is probably the least memorable of the lot. The fairway is wide and relatively unprotected, though tea trees will quickly swallow wild drives. Near the green, a deep bunker guards the right side opposite the mounding and deep rough left and behind.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2016/5711210801_0be5f97220_z.jpg)
A view from behind the 1st includes the 2nd hole running away to the left, while the 18th hole of the East course and clubhouse are seen on the right.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2330/5711770682_098e7b27b2_z.jpg)
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Kyle,
One is certainly not that memorable, but is a good opener in that you can let out a couple of long shots without too many problems to confront. I'm reminded of the Ross edict of a few long, uncomplicated holes to start the round to get players away safely without a card-wrecker.
The bunker guarding the right side of the green lacks the Mackenzian flair and doesn't really cover much of the green, even from the farthest right portion of the fairway.
TK
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At 439 meters (480 yards), the par 5 2nd hole is easily reachable in two for decent players armed with modern equipment.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/5711211055_cb43193b96_z.jpg)
Sneaking tee shots near or over this bunker at the inside of the dog leg should bring the green within reach.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/5711211229_29d4df33c3_z.jpg)
The sweeping fairway places a bit of pressure on golfers to choose their line carefully into the green. For the first time, the whimsical contours that characterize “The West’s” greens are tasted. That taste will often be of a three putt.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/5711211371_2b64c9aa42_z.jpg)
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One of my favourite features on the whole course (and there were a lot of favourites) was the way that front left greenside trap ties in with the native heath.
You often hear how the par fives at RMW are a let-down because they are too short. Pig's arse they're a let-down, all four of them are full of fun shots, choices, what more can you ask for from a golf hole?
This might have pipped 15 as my favourite for the cut drive and draw approach, and just how great the green complex is given it's on an underwhelming piece of land.
You notice early on in the round at RMW that the vegetation is very different to much of the East course.
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The bunker guarding the right side of the green lacks the Mackenzian flair and doesn't really cover much of the green, even from the farthest right portion of the fairway.
TK
For mine, these are Morcoms bunkers. Mackenzie may have sited them but he certainly wasn't there when they were built. They are distinctly unique I feel to the courses morcom had an influence in. I think this hole is deliberately bland and in that contains some of the genuis. Broad fairway to get you away, a large green guarded by an uncomplicated bunker. Perfect way to warm into the round and the wonderful routing that builds with each hole that follows
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You often hear how the par fives at RMW are a let-down because they are too short. Pig's arse they're a let-down, all four of them are full of fun shots, choices, what more can you ask for from a golf hole?
I think you're missing the point Scott. I'm yet to hear anyone suggest that any of the four are poor holes, in fact most acknowledge that they're fantastic holes. The criticism is of the lack of variety in length as a group. Do you disagree that pointing out the lack of a three-shot hole (or at least a par-five where the good player has to hit a fairway wood into the green) is a legitimate criticism?
To only find one hole over 500 yards on the property the West course sits on is pretty disappointing, IMO.
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:D
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Chris
One maybe stretching "fantastic" when it comes to #15 though I concur with most of what you say.
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Chris - RMW is a victim of technology, tees are pretty tight to the boundaries and there is very little opportunity to lengthen. IMO each of the par 5s are good holes and approaches to holes such as the 12th would have been very different 50 years ago, where as a modest rabbit such as myself managed to get home with driver, 6 iron in one round. Likewise 15 with the second shot carry.
Kyle - you do not need to stray far down the left side of the first with driver to catch the fairly thick rough. I found it impossible to hold the green from the left rough even with 2 or 3 very good strikes (I had a hitting it left week!)
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a modest rabbit such as myself
How is that sombrero fitting these days? Still claiming a 12 handicap?
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Hmm mini disaster at Easter, from the middle of the 17th fairway I shanked a wedge and finished 6,6 to come third - by a stroke - and got cut to 11 for my troubles. :'(
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Mark P: You can talk! Taking that 12 handicap to the US this week will be like taking candy from babies!
Chris K:
I think you're missing the point Scott. I'm yet to hear anyone suggest that any of the four are poor holes, in fact most acknowledge that they're fantastic holes. The criticism is of the lack of variety in length as a group. Do you disagree that pointing out the lack of a three-shot hole (or at least a par-five where the good player has to hit a fairway wood into the green) is a legitimate criticism?
When wind is a factor I'm not too fussed on variety in length as much as variety in challenge and in shot requirements.
The four holes appeared to me to require different shots and pose different challenges - mental and physical.
Does it matter that there is only one hole over 500 yards? Not to me. It didn't matter to me at West Sussex, Rye, Swinley, Royal Dornoch, North Berwick (almost qualifies) or Fishers Island either. 500 yards takes three shots for most golfers.
Perhaps it's an issue for tournament golf and tournament players, but I'm not all that fussed about them.
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Mark P: You can talk! Taking that 12 handicap to the US this week will be like taking candy from babies!
13, actually! Well, up to 12.5 at the end of last season.
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Chris
One maybe stretching "fantastic" when it comes to #15 though I concur with most of what you say.
The tee shot is rather bland at #15, but the last 150 yards or so make for pretty good golf IMHO.
I read somewhere that the 15th was a remnant of the original Sandringham layout that the good doctor left intact as an example of how much worse the course was before his design suggestions were enacted. Is therer any truth to that anecdote?
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At 324 meters (354 yards) in length, the 3rd is a short and rather unassuming par 4. As with many good holes of its era, the 3rd does not necessarily photograph well, as it’s modest challenges are quite subtle. The fairway is wide and tilts from right-to-left. The green’s bunkering is easily avoided by decent players when the winds are down. But, in match play, professionals will be pressured by the knowledge that they will often lose the hole with a par.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3264/5711211633_02b0f56e86_z.jpg)
A tricky false front wreaks absolute havoc when the hole plays down wind, for the green slopes to the rear. Only those able to apply unearthly amounts of spin with their wedges can hold the surface on the fly under such conditions.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/5711211915_7ff736faa9_z.jpg)
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I know this is a bit silly, but I have been playing a lot of EA Sports TW 12 on my Xbox.
Although I got the game specifically to study Augusta National, my most favorite course on that game is Royal Melbourne. You can tell its greatness even from simulations. I would love to see it in person one of these days...
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Here's a couple more pics of the 3rd green and its fronting swale, which I think makes the hole.
The front to back slope of the green makes us mortals who can't generate 10,000rpm of spin think that an approach that lands short and bounces or rolls up is the best bet, but the swale being set on that slight angle to the line of play makes that far from a simple play.
When the fescue has firmed up at Presidents' Cup time it will be interesting to see the ways the best players in the world (outside of Europe ;)) play the hole to a front pin.
The swale:
(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9025/dscn0379dw.jpg)
Looking back:
(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4785/dscn0380s.jpg)
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Good work starting this thread Kyle. I'm looking forward to seeing others comments on one of the world's great courses.
Did anyone try a ground approach to 3 during your round? After a good drive out right, a bump along the ground, with good judgement of weight, which rolls through the small depression at the front of the green, is a joy to watch.
MM
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Thanks for the tour, Kyle. Re the 15th, yes I believe Mac decided to leave the fairway landform as is/was as a "monument" to the past.
Re 3 being "modest" and "unassuming," I would say "subtle" but to each his own. I feel it is one of the best short 4s I've ever played, certainly one of my favorite holes in the world.
Next time if the flag is forward I think I will go for the back of the green and take my chances with a lag putt.
I will be interested to see the maintenance meld presented for the Pres Cup as well as hole locations. Being match not medal hopefully will encourage risk/reward locations rather than just hard.
How did the GCAers fare on the hole? Can someone venture a guess as to the % birdies, pars, bogeys, doubles, and others? I'm not interested in the scoring average but the distro.
It certainly is no pushover for me and it's difficulty has only increased with playing. Each time through I have a larger skeleton collection upon which to, uh, draw.
Man I could play this hole until the End Days and not grow weary of its charms and challenges. The many possibilities for hole locations and wind conditions make that possible.
Truly, for how many holes can we say that?
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I used the words "modest" and "subtle" in reference to the challenges offered by the hole, for it is certainly not anywhere near the most difficult ever seen on a "championship" course, but it requires a deft touch to score well.
I never used those two words in reference to the overall merits of the hole. ;)
Thanks for the tour, Kyle. Re the 15th, yes I believe Mac decided to leave the fairway landform as is/was as a "monument" to the past.
Re 3 being "modest" and "unassuming," I would say "subtle" but to each his own. I feel it is one of the best short 4s I've ever played, certainly one of my favorite holes in the world.
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Chris - RMW is a victim of technology, tees are pretty tight to the boundaries and there is very little opportunity to lengthen. IMO each of the par 5s are good holes and approaches to holes such as the 12th would have been very different 50 years ago, where as a modest rabbit such as myself managed to get home with driver, 6 iron in one round. Likewise 15 with the second shot carry.
Mark, I agree that RMW is a victim of technology...but why does it get a free pass for the inability to lengthen? Most of the sandbelt courses were built in a similar era, yet they haven't suffered this problem to anywhere near the same extent.
Wasn't it Mackenzie who emphasised the importance of the ability to lengthen by saying that the ideal routing should have a forward walk from tee to green to allow for lengthening down the track? Its a real shame that, in what is otherwise one of the great routings, he didn't provide the flexibility for his par-fives to play anything like he intended 80 years later.
When wind is a factor I'm not too fussed on variety in length as much as variety in challenge and in shot requirements.
The four holes appeared to me to require different shots and pose different challenges - mental and physical.
Does it matter that there is only one hole over 500 yards? Not to me. It didn't matter to me at West Sussex, Rye, Swinley, Royal Dornoch, North Berwick (almost qualifies) or Fishers Island either. 500 yards takes three shots for most golfers.
Perhaps it's an issue for tournament golf and tournament players, but I'm not all that fussed about them.
Scott, don't get me wrong, they are four great second shots. However, I've had several rounds there where I hit the same club for my second shot into all four greens. I can't think of another serious course I've played where that club was the longest I hit all day.
For me, its the perfect demonstration about how a course can have a set of par-threes or par-fives which individually are all terrific (I accept Kevin Pallier's point that 15 isn't at the same level), but as a set aren't ideal.
Compare the set of par-threes on RMW - they are 161, 135, 134 and 202 metres, and three of the four are truly great holes (in fact, you could mount a sound argument that 7, 5 and 16 are the best short, medium and long par-threes in Australia). That is what I consider a great set - there is variety in the length as well as type of shot required.
Regarding the six courses you listed where it 'didn't matter to me', as with all issues, we will have to agree to disagree. :D
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Perhaps it's an issue for tournament golf and tournament players, but I'm not all that fussed about them.
Is it really just tournaments players though? All four are two-shot holes for a proficient single-figure golfer, and are designed as such. There isn't much strategic interest in the layup shot for the shorter hitter.
RMW is the best course in Australia, but that doesn't mean its perfect.
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Chris I'd suggest it was the land purchased that restricted Mackenzie not his ability.
Ah the b@stard third, so how do you play it? Maybe my mistake was hitting three wood rather than driver but in four rounds I had three pars and a bogey. First round from the left fairway I hit a perfect SW into the green that ran through. Then I hit SW down the left side of the swale it bounced a couple of times checked then rolled through the green. Next time trying the same approach it stopped above the hole leaving a downhill putt.....not easy! Finally a skied tee shot left me short but it had rained the previous day and the greens were no longer rock hard so the ball held the green to a front middle position.
This is a great short par four.
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Chris,
I agree there isn't much to the layup at the 2nd or the 4th, but I'd disagree re: the 12th and 15th.
I agree the absence of a genuine three shot hole not perfect, but to me that's no different to a course that lacks a genuine short par four.
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All four are two-shot holes for a proficient single-figure golfer, and are designed as such. There isn't much strategic interest in the layup shot for the shorter hitter.
RMW is the best course in Australia, but that doesn't mean its perfect.
How can it be the best course in Australia when it doesn't have the complete range of holes?
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No wonder the magazines rated Kingston Heath #1 then, eh Mark? ;)
MM
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No wonder the magazines rated Kingston Heath #1 then, eh Mark? ;)
MM
I was thinking of National Old when I wrote that, Matt.
After all, it apparently has everything... ;D
Seriously, at what point does the lack of something influence a course's standing, no matter its other attributes? For some it is the lack of a great short three or four. What about a preponderance of holes that bend the same way, no matter their excellence? A collection of similar green types?
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Mark, you raise a great point. Personally, I feel the people who are critical of RMW owing to the lack of a long par 5 overstate the way in which they play them. I play there consistently with a long driving, long hitting member off 2. Sure he sometimes has 7 iron into 2, but he has lots of club in hand into 12. Are the golfers who suggest there's no par 5 out there all getting through 2,4,12 and 15 in -4? Are they all hitting short iron into all 4? I seriously doubt it.
Chris, I feel the lay-ups at 2 and 4 are really interesting, particularly with some pins. 12 not so much, and 15 less so, but they still require thought, and placement. And, I think there's a little more variation in compass points to which the par 5 approaches are hit than you're suggesting.
And, didn't MacKenzie say something even in one of his books about good long holes being three shot propositions for average players, but good two shot holes for accompliched players? Maybe RM is playing as he envisioned?
MM
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Did anyone try a ground approach to 3 during your round? After a good drive out right, a bump along the ground, with good judgement of weight, which rolls through the small depression at the front of the green, is a joy to watch.
MM
Matthew,
Tried and ... failed. I think it's one of those shots that gets better over time as you get more and more familiar for how it plays on this 3rd. For the first timer, being able to make out the contours from afar and how to play it is a tad tricky. I found the East course to have a few of these as well, but the softer conditions on the East that day weren't as conducive to this type of shot. Certainly a blast to try. Plenty of these at KH to perfect this type of shot ;D .
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Greens that slope away from the player are a great way to put pressure on the short approach shot. As Scott pointed out, the swale in front makes the hole because it severely complicates a ground approach. I suspect that running a shot up could work, but quite a bit of practice is probably needed.
One of my favorite short par 4s.
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If anyone has ever played - or even looked at it - 2 West off the flat ground behind 17East green they will know there is a potentially great long par five on the West.
If they had stuck with the 1998 Presidents Cup routing they could easily have played that hole because they follow each other. It just needs a little flat tee in there and some minimal tea-tree removal down the left.
The carry on the bunker is about 290 yards.
If the longer hitting members wanted to play from there they could easily manage the traffic issues with 17 East.
Then is they called the 430 metre 15 what it really is - a par four - they would have what the critics would accept as a great group of par fives. That new back tee at 4 makes it a pretty tough tee shot and hole for the best players.
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I think the 3rd is where RMW starts to shine. After playing the East in the morning, this was the first point in the afternoon round that I felt like I was on something that was going to be different and a little more fun than what I saw in the morning.
I thought the stretch from 3 to 7 was as good a five hole stretch as I've seen anywhere. This hole, in particular, jumped out as a masterful way to use contours in routing a short par 4. Not overly complex to the eye, but a ton going on. Coming over the rise in the fairway, the first timer really has no idea what to expect up by the green. I could play this hole 18 times over and probably find it just as challenging and fun every time. Unfortunately, I only had one crack at it (with rented clubs and borrowed shoes, thanks to my good friends at Quantas).
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#4 is a par 5 stretching to 461 meters (507 yards).
One highlight of the pre-Boomerang festivities included dinner at Yarra Yarra with the head pro Andrew Bertram, a man who served as long-time assistant pro at Royal Melbourne. Among the many changes to the West course during his tenure, he mentioned that the area short and left of the fairway bunkers off of the number 4 tee was once maintained as fairway. That area is now full of native grasses.
A strong drive over the crest a bit right of the bunkers is ideal.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2073/5711771852_acb6f04614_z.jpg)
From there, the hole sweeps back down and to the right. Tee shots to near the inside of the turn may feed into the starboard gunch.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3375/5711772090_37db9c2743_z.jpg)
The green is accessible from long range for those adept in playing long irons and woods from tight, uneven lies. Although it is a large target, the green offers challenging two putts from any distance over 10 feet.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2315/5711772324_2842e7ca37_z.jpg)
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Nice pics again Arnie,
Can you speak to your philosophy on framing your pics, in particular the position of the horizon in the frame please?
Bm
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Nice pics again Arnie,
Can you speak to your philosophy on framing your pics, in particular the position of the horizon in the frame please?
Bm
I try not to be too conscious about it. I scan for a seconds until it "looks right" and the horizon is horizontal...
Near greens, bunker, or other interesting features. I'll tend to include more earth in frame to capture more of the details.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/3082615597_c927c8746d_z.jpg)
Conversely, If I'm standing in the middle of a wide fairway with nothing interesting at my feet, I'll may aim higher to capture interesting clouds, trees or whatever.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5169/5225818118_368cfb73ce_z.jpg)
At RMW, the partially cloudy skies forced us to be quick with cameras to catch half-way decent light, but the sky was purdy enough to warrant some frame space, so you might see a trend in this thread.
My apologies for the monotony.
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The world-famous par 3 5th (161 meters/176 yards) is noted as the only hole completed during MacKenzie’s whirlwind consulting tour of Australia finest golf clubs. His plans came to fruition largely at the hands of trusted associates after his departure.
Today’s version of the 5th features many characteristics common to par 3s all over the sandbelt: firm greens with plenty of movement, greenside traps scooped right from the sides of the putting surface, and neatly-trimmed swales that will draw poorly-struck shots away from the flag. Generally, the green is steeply-pitched from back-to-front.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/5711789194_40e2a712ae_z.jpg)
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5 and 6 on RMW the best back to back holes I've ever played. The 5th is all about distance control as anything short comes back down the slope and anything long is impossible with the greens hard and fast. A very fine par 3.
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Couple of good You Tube vids on Royal Melbourne
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26mndTZD-PA
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eysb120OIU&feature=related
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Kyle,
Thank you for providing this wonderful thread. As a prospective member of Royal Melbourne (currently on the waiting list), i've really enjoyed the posts thus far. Having just signed up to GCA, i can now look forward to posting myself on what I think is one of the world's great courses!
The 5th is a terrific par-3 and certainly rivals the 15th at Kingston Heath as Australia's premier short hole. For those that haven't played at RM, no photo of the 5th can truly show the grand scale of the land in which this hole occupies. I was astounded the first time i played it.
I'll back up Mark's comment - 5 and 6 RMW are certainly the best back-to-back holes i've played also. That is perhaps until i play 15 and 16 at Cypress Point this July :)
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Hey - Welcome Ben - hope you enjoy GCA.
Can someone provide indication of prevailing wind on this hole pls?
cross breezes will certainly add to the challenge of hitting the green.
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This is what I remember about the 5th...
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Royal%20Melbourne%20West%203-11/DSC01525.jpg)
When asked about this penal fern kind of rough that is rather evident in various areas of the course, we were told it had nothing to do with toughening up the course for upcoming President's Cup. Rather, the Melbourne area had experienced one of its wettest summers ever... So the growth has been tremendous and it was only then starting to dry out. We saw one maintenance crew on the 2nd working on the stuff.
Back to the 4th for a moment. I thought it was one of most wonderful sweeping holes I've seen. Just a an attractive hole. Fine green as well.
Here's looking back from the green to give a different perspective on how much the fairway sweeps towards the green:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Royal%20Melbourne%20West%203-11/DSC01514.jpg)
What's tremendous about RM is how you get a continuous view of the various other holes on both courses and from different angles across the courses. As evidenced here where immediately adjacent to the left tee of the 5th is the East's 2nd green and the West's 6th approach and green in the distance
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Royal%20Melbourne%20West%203-11/DSC01518.jpg)
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6th (391meters/428 yards) tee shot is a dogleg to the right at a fantastic angle that dares players to bite off as much as they can chew.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2769/5711789356_503003aae0_z.jpg)
Failure to carry the bunkers will almost certainly cost most golfers a stroke. Failure to reach the bunkers may provide golfers with the opportunity to play another tee shot…
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2387/5711230043_24b26ba9ef_z.jpg)
Beyond the 2nd green of the East Course (outside the dogleg of the West course’s 6th fairway), the West’s 6th green is benched against the hillside, with bunkers protecting both flanks. Personal anecdote: Standing in the short left bunker in the distance, with my ball just outside of the pot on short grass around waist-high, I gripped a putter 5 inches about the mallet and took a mighty swing to set up a successful par putt from 5 feet.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/5711789636_0500c2169d_z.jpg)
One may find use the slope along the right side (left of frame looking back from behind the 6th green) of the putting surface to access starboard pin locations, but such a shot must be carefully judged to avoid the adjacent bunkers
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/5711789758_7f69a8f15f_z.jpg)
The back-to-front tilt of the 6th green and the spatial relationships of its surrounding hazards are viewed from the right along the path to #7.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/5711230413_a15377ceeb_z.jpg)
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/5711789758_7f69a8f15f_z.jpg)
Probably my favourite P4 in golf.
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Yes, tip top this one! Nice pics there El Capitan.
The only issue was the fern rough being ridiculous at the corner and leading up to it as Kyle hints to. Ask David Kelly how that went...
The tee shot calls for a Vijay fade. The power fade is such a cool shot and it sets you up nicely.
I think what does it for me besides the obvious approach is the ebb and flow is ideal. Just a sweet hole.
I can easily say the stretch of 4-6 had me smiling at the time and I said to myself it was right up there for me as some of the best experienced thus far anywhere, but ... it somehow gets better and the stretch keeps going...
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The 5th is all about distance control as anything short comes back down the slope and anything long is impossible with the greens hard and fast. A very fine par 3.
Just a fantastic green site.
From below the green.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/royal%20melbourne%20west/rmw5g.jpg)
Looking back towards the tee. The photo really doesn't convey how much slope there is from back to front, but you sure see it standing over a shot.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/royal%20melbourne%20west/rmw5grear.jpg)
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Pics just can't show how steep the front slope on 5 is. It's awesome.
And the putt from above the hole is as slippery as they come. From memory I was about 15ft right and 4-5ft above the hole and stopping it within a couple of feet was a really tough proposition (I think you can actually just make my ball out in the pic below).
Then you walk onto the 6th tee and it's as good as golf gets, IMO.
The 5th and 6th might just be the best two holes I've played consecutively, despite some pretty tough competition.
A couple more pics.
The 5th:
(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/9781/dscn0389.jpg)
Approach to the 6th:
(http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9199/dscn0342r.jpg)
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Scott,
As I walked off the 6th green, I was thinking the same. The best two hole stretch I had ever played. I think i also thought the same thing as I walked off the 5th green!
It is a real pity that the back tee on 6 is gone. A simple 3 wood for the pros now. And I mid teen handicapper liek me should not be hitting driver-wedge into that green.
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Great stuff, Kyle!
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Does anyone have an opinion on whether the bunkers that you can see from the tee on number 4 should be removed?
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Wade:
Scott, isn't that couch grass rather than fescue? More importantly, I have it on good authority that the club is replanting the greens (for the President's Cup) with the Scott's mix that they used to use. Any comments on that from the turf experts?
The greens have already been changed back, haven't they?
There is - we were told in March when we visited - a ring of fescue around the greens to stop the couch creeping into the greens, as there's a product that kills everything other than fescue than can be applied to that area periodically.
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Wade,
I think the approaches are fescue.
With regards to the 4th, I think the bunekrs were fanstastic when there was ample room to play around them on the left.
Now that the options to play left or right of them is so treacherous, it would be almost preferable to remove them from a playability point of view. Which is a pity, because they were great bunkers.
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Wade:
Scott, isn't that couch grass rather than fescue? More importantly, I have it on good authority that the club is replanting the greens (for the President's Cup) with the Scott's mix that they used to use. Any comments on that from the turf experts?
The greens have already been changed back, haven't they?
There is - we were told in March when we visited - a ring of fescue around the greens to stop the couch creeping into the greens, as there's a product that kills everything other than fescue than can be applied to that area periodically.
The greens have all been relaid for the Presidents' Cup. The grass is Sutton's Mix. The original greens at Royal Melbourne were Sutton's mix but they were ripped up in the late 80s and replaced with Penncross which was never suitable. I understand that there was a nursery green where the old grass was still growing and some samples were sent to New Zealand and cultivated. The greens were relaid with Sutton's mix about 10 years ago and provided a fantastic surface for about 18 months before other grasses, then fungus, crept in. Since then the club appears to have had all sorts of problems with them, including killing several when someone got the concentration of some chemical wrong. The greens have been relaid in the past 3 or 4 years - I believe with the same grass. As Scott says the fringes have been converted to fescue.
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The 7th plays 135 meters (148 yards) uphill to a skyline green. Originally, if I’m not mistaken, the hole was played to a green site a bit further left and from tee grounds 90-degrees to the left.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/5711812728_a8af310ca1_z.jpg)
Bunkers will ensnare shots that miss short, right or long, and the green is heavily canted towards the front.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2767/5711812822_935c04f6e6_z.jpg)
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A fantastic short uphill par-3, requiring perfect club selection. With firm greens (as they are now), this hole can be a nightmare when played downwind.
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6th (391meters/428 yards) tee shot is a dogleg to the right at a fantastic angle that dares players to bite off as much as they can chew.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2769/5711789356_503003aae0_z.jpg)
Failure to carry the bunkers will almost certainly cost most golfers a stroke. Failure to reach the bunkers may provide golfers with the opportunity to play another tee shot…
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2387/5711230043_24b26ba9ef_z.jpg)
Beyond the 2nd green of the East Course (outside the dogleg of the West course’s 6th fairway), the West’s 6th green is benched against the hillside, with bunkers protecting both flanks. Personal anecdote: Standing in the short left bunker in the distance, with my ball just outside of the pot on short grass around waist-high, I gripped a putter 5 inches about the mallet and took a mighty swing to set up a successful par putt from 5 feet.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/5711789636_0500c2169d_z.jpg)
One may find use the slope along the right side (left of frame looking back from behind the 6th green) of the putting surface to access starboard pin locations, but such a shot must be carefully judged to avoid the adjacent bunkers
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/5711789758_7f69a8f15f_z.jpg)
The back-to-front tilt of the 6th green and the spatial relationships of its surrounding hazards are viewed from the right along the path to #7.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/5711230413_a15377ceeb_z.jpg)
One of the great driving holes and one of the great approach shots - both on the same hole!
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Photos can't do justice to how deep the front bunker is on the 7th, and how the green feels like a shelf hanging over the bunkers. Its the kind of green that if you didn't watch your step you might just back up off a putt and find yourself tumbling into a sandy pit.
I completely butchered my tee ball on this hole and didn't get the benefit of seeing if a ball struck to the left side of the green will feed to the right. Anyone else able to pull this shot off?
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Paging David Kelly.
Sven, DK hit the most gorgeous draw (he is a lefty, of course) that settled about 2ft from the hole.
I was short off the tee and was able to use the slope of the green to feed my chip close, so I can vouch for the green being useful in that regard.
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Paging David Kelly.
Sven, DK hit the most gorgeous draw (he is a lefty, of course) that settled about 2ft from the hole.
I was short off the tee and was able to use the slope of the green to feed my chip close, so I can vouch for the green being useful in that regard.
That came after having screwed up my favorite hole in the Southern Hemisphere right before.
Scott, if you remember there were a bunch of guys hanging around that green, looking at plans, looking at the green and having discussions. Do you know if anything has been subsequently done to the 7th hole?
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#3-7 look like five of the best consecutive holes you could possibly play anywhere in the world.
For longer amateurs and especially for the pros at the Presidents Cup....is there any reason to hit driver off of #6? If they do hit driver, are they going to have to completely cut the corner? It seems too aggressive of a play just looking at the photos.
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Jonathan,
I played with one of the assistant pro's at RM earlier this year. On the same day he hit 3-wood over the back of the green on #3 (yes, that's right!), he hit a cut driver into A1 position on #6, leaving a wedge into one of the most treacherous greens in the world. Given the format of the President's Cup, i think we'll see more drivers than not...i hope!
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Thanks, Ben. Was this cut driver with a hurting wind? Downwind it looks as if you would almost have to slice it some considering how far some guys can move it now.
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I have nothing to add, except WOW!!! Keep it coming guys, great thread.
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Jonathan,
In Kyle's pics and in the below aerial, you can see a small tree just right of the bunkers on the near side of the fairway. Kind of blends in with the background in Kyle's pic, but you can see the trunk, which shows it's on the right of the fairway and not the left. Anyway, you can see that you can hit the ball bullet straight inside that tree and that would leave about a full wedge in.
According to GoogleMaps the carry from the back tee over the far right bunker is about 225m, so 247yds. Into the wind it would likely require driver for at least some pros.
Of course a cut ensures the ball runs out more towards the green than across the fairway, ensuring the best line in, but I would suggest that with a wedge in hand as opposed to the 6i I had in my hand for the approach shot, the benefit of that preferred angle is diluted somewhat.
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/963/rmw6.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2769/5711789356_503003aae0_z.jpg)
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Thanks, Ben. Was this cut driver with a hurting wind? Downwind it looks as if you would almost have to slice it some considering how far some guys can move it now.
Hurting a fraction from the right Jonathan, if my memory serves me correctly.
The fairways at RM are legend couch, meaning that there is much less role than there once was. I think this was used as a measure to lengthen the course somewhat, given the lack of room to move tees back.
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Thanks, Scott and Ben.
That tree trunk is a super aggressive line. I'm not too sure how well I would do on that line with my block miss to the right!
I like that 247 number. Downwind you can carry a 3 metal and into the wind a driver shouldn't get too far away from you. Man, it looks like depending on your shot shape there are a ton of lines you can take off of this tee. Just like Kyle said....it dares you to bite off as much as you can chew.
Thanks for the photos everyone. I'm enjoying this thread quite a bit.
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Paging David Kelly.
Sven, DK hit the most gorgeous draw (he is a lefty, of course) that settled about 2ft from the hole.
I was short off the tee and was able to use the slope of the green to feed my chip close, so I can vouch for the green being useful in that regard.
That came after having screwed up my favorite hole in the Southern Hemisphere right before.
Scott, if you remember there were a bunch of guys hanging around that green, looking at plans, looking at the green and having discussions. Do you know if anything has been subsequently done to the 7th hole?
David,
That was a great comeback on the 7th...
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The 8th hole (346 meters/379 yards) parallels the 1st hole from the East Course to a green set just inside the property line of the club. The fairway bunker complex along the left side is shared between the two holes.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2389/5711253103_c9365fba2b_z.jpg)
While the fairway bunkers contain some nasty bushes, drives that narrowly avoid this hazard will yield the best approach angle into the green. The left-to-right angled putting surface slopes towards a pair of hidden bunkers at the rear
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/5711253233_1d85b2bea4_z.jpg)
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Shane Gurnett is also the master of the drive and wedge approach to the 6th.
I love the fact there is a nice wide fairway out to the left making RMW6 a playable hole for everyone, yes there is jungle to carry down the right but no one HAS to go for the carry. Most good players will not even notice the fairway down the left but as one gets older it will gradually become the regular route of play.
In round one we all found the fairway and had 7 irons into the classic left centre pin, with the green hard and putting pretty quickly. Our member partner quite rightly suggested we hit to the centre of the green and all four of us duly did as requested. Sadly FIVE was our best score with everyone three putting!
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Thank you Scott, David and Matthew. That information is very helpful. I am very eager to do an Australia trip in the near future (probably RME RMW x 2, KH, BD, LF and perhaps NSW). Of course, given the distance (and thus the fact that it is a trip that I am not likely to repeat for several years at least) I am eager to get my timing right as far as conditioning is concerned. I do not care if the course looks like August, but I would love for it to play firm and for the fabled putting surfaces at RM and KH to play fast and true (a friend of mine tells me that when those greens are in top form they are the best in the world). I have high hopes that after the President's Cup RM will be in top nick for some time.
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With regard to the carry distance at 6, it is worth noting that the back tee was removed when the 4th was butchered/redesigned. Back in the day, aggressive long jitters like Norman and Lindsay Stephen used to hit power fades around the corner and wedge it in. Mote recently most pros played 3 wood off the tee and about 8 iron in.
With the back tee gone and advances in equipment, I fear that the hole will have lost some of its magic when the presidents cup comes around.
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The 9th hole (380 meters/416 yards) rides a wave of gracefully undulating land before culminating at an elevated green site. The bunkers in the foreground of this picture are shared with the 8th hole and well short of the landing zone for the 9th tee shot.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2546/5711813212_dfea92e7b8_z.jpg)
The green runs from short/right to long/left with bunkers on both flanks. Running approaches can access front pins using a “Redanish” kick plate just short of the putting surface.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3105/5711813582_3030d64a73_z.jpg)
A large collection area behind the green will prove to be a popular spot with this day’s pin location. From here, the green slopes away rather quickly towards the front.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2460/5711253943_66acd74a8d_z.jpg)
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I liked 8 and 9, and thought they were an important break from the sensory overload of 3-7.
Two holes here with a lot less drama than the preceding holes, but still strong reward for precise placement and execution, and where 8 asks for a fade approach, 9 wants a draw.
I like the placement of the crest in the driving zone at 9, so the longer the strike the greater the reward, too.
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I like the placement of the crest in the driving zone at 9, so the longer the strike the greater the reward, too.
You like holes that help the longest hitters hit it even longer? Paging Mr. Ward!!!
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Sure. Hitting it long is a talent and all talents ought to be rewarded at times. Not just the longest hitters, but anyone who knocks it over the ridge gets a benefit.
NSW 5th, St Andrews Beach 18th (down the right), Pine Valley 4th, Fishers Island 9th and The Addington 16th offer similar rewards for a long and accurate tee shot.
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Sure. Hitting it long is a talent and all talents ought to be rewarded at times. Not just the longest hitters, but anyone who knocks it over the ridge gets a benefit.
NSW 5th, St Andrews Beach 18th (down the right), Pine Valley 4th, Fishers Island 9th and The Addington 16th offer similar rewards for a long and accurate tee shot.
Those courses blow, moron. ;)
EDIT: The turbo boost does add to the variety of the round, although long ballers do get quite a few boosts on The West Course (#4, #9, #12, #18).
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The 10th is a classic short par 4 (285meters/312 yards). On the tee you will have aspirations of birdie (or better!), but soon you may be kicking yourself after making a 5 (or worse!).
Players can bomb drives over the menacing bunker to reach the green in one or play out to the right with shorter clubs. The day’s wind will play a pivotal role in this decision, as will the outcome of previous attempts impressed upon one’s psyche.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2212/5711814028_c7fd8e94af_z.jpg)
Recovery shots from the Sarlac Pit (not its actual name) are almost as difficult as the climb down into it.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/5711254485_62042ab572_z.jpg)
Drives that carry the bunker but fail to reach the green should still be in a decent position, unless a bush swallows the ball and forces a dreary march back to the tee. The earth falls away long and right of the green.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2598/5711814646_5135f54599_z.jpg)
From beyond the green, the multitude of testing second shots may leave one longing for a full wedge from the fairway.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/5711255063_c50b743e49_z.jpg)
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Thanks for the awesome photo tour Kyle. RM looks like a very special place.
In looking at the pictures of the 10th, it appears that the dangers around the green far outway the potential reward. It seems like a very exacting shot, especially with a driver in hand and firm/fast turf. Is going at the green a viable option? It looks like a lost ball and/or double bogey or higher would be in the cards unless you can land a driver on a smallish hard green from 300 yards...
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Thanks for the awesome photo tour Kyle. RM looks like a very special place.
In looking at the pictures of the 10th, it appears that the dangers around the green far outway the potential reward. It seems like a very exacting shot, especially with a driver in hand and firm/fast turf. Is going at the green a viable option? It looks like a lost ball and/or double bogey or higher would be in the cards unless you can land a driver on a smallish hard green from 300 yards...
Thanks, George. The enthusiastic commentary inspired by this thread is most gratifying.
I would agree that the prospects of holding the green with a driver are quite slim, unless one hits 'em 350 and has a headwind. I think the strategy involves choosing the desired angle of the approach/recovery shot from just off the green vs. a longer (full) shot from short and right. Personally, I would mostly hit 3 irons and wedges most of the time unless I was on my game -- with the wind I might try to curl a draw around the right side of the pit and see where it ended up, just for kicks.
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I'll have you know that Kyle is describing EXACTLY how I played this hole, and he was kind enough to leave my name out... I really thought my tee shot was going to carry the bunker, but it did not. I really thought my escape from the bunker was short but decent, only to be swallowed by one of the bushes... I still can't believe I lost that ball...
For whatever reason, this is the hole that made it clear to me that Doak learned more from Mackenzie than any other architect.
The 10th is a classic short par 4 (285meters/312 yards). On the tee you will have aspirations of birdie (or better!), but soon you may be kicking yourself after making a 5 (or worse!).
Players can bomb drives over the menacing bunker to reach the green in one or play out to the right with shorter clubs. The day’s wind will play a pivotal role in this decision, as will the outcome of previous attempts impressed upon one’s psyche.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2212/5711814028_c7fd8e94af_z.jpg)
Recovery shots from the Sarlac Pit (not its actual name) are almost as difficult as the climb down into it.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/5711254485_62042ab572_z.jpg)
Drives that carry the bunker but fail to reach the green should still be in a decent position, unless a bush swallows the ball and forces a dreary march back to the tee. The earth falls away long and right of the green.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2598/5711814646_5135f54599_z.jpg)
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Actually, Bill, the golfer in my scenario cleared the bunker with his drive... :P ;)
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What a hole. One of my favourites.
As well as any hole in the world it shows why MacKenzie would have adored the way Severiano Ballesteros played golf.
I saw him play 4 days of the 1978 Australian PGA and it was a time when no one ever went for the green. Not even Norman.
Seve stood there every days and ripped a driver straight at the green.He never made it, coming down in the heathy waste land just short of the green. From there he played the most magical of shots and made three birdies and a par.
Seve is the only player to have won at Royal Melbourne,Augusta and St Andrews - and they are the three best courses pro golf goes to with any regularity.
MacKenzie never knew it, but he was building courses for Seve and this hole is a perfect example of reward for boldness,flair,spirit and talent.
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really nice post Mike. 8)
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Alright...
We've been through and up to 10 holes.
Does it get any better than the incredible stretch of holes of 4-10? All four points of the compass are hit. Up, down, and around topography... Fantastic ebb and flow... Great rhythm... Challenging test...
I mean ... give me a break here.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Royal%20Melbourne%20West%203-11/RMWRouting.jpg)
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Actually Patrick, it does get better, you missed out the 3rd... ;)
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In looking at the pictures of the 10th, it appears that the dangers around the green far outway the potential reward. It seems like a very exacting shot, especially with a driver in hand and firm/fast turf. Is going at the green a viable option? It looks like a lost ball and/or double bogey or higher would be in the cards unless you can land a driver on a smallish hard green from 300 yards...
George
Many on here who know me know that I'm not overly excited as them on #10. I've never ever been tempted to pull driver on that hole. The fairway is very wide to the right and accepts a 3I and a SW or wedge straight up the green. Each to their own I suppose.
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Does it get any better than the incredible stretch of holes of 4-10?
Actually Patrick, it does get better, you missed out the 3rd... ;)
And the second!
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When I previously asked about #6, Scott showed me that I sometimes forget how Google Earth can answer questions. But.... the elevation changes on GE suck at times and I don't think it's giving an accurate reading for #10.
So, according to this shot from the back of the back tee, how much elevation change is actually there? This line off the tee is only a 243 yard carry. It must be extremely uphill. Help me out here!
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/GoogleEarth_Image1.jpg)
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Jonathan,
They have just added five yards to the back tee - nonetheless it is only about 270 to the green.
It is a long way uphill though and always seems to play much longer than that.
Kevin,
It is true that it's an easy shot to the right with a two or three iron but in a tournament it is a hard shot to fly it all the way to a back flag because over the back is hopeless. It is not that hard a shot if you are fooling around but I always found it a different proposition in a tournament - plus the greens are always harder and faster.
Flying the bunker and shortening the pitch by 50 yards is a huge advantage.
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The first time I played RM #10 I went for the green with a driver and hit the top of the bunker and rolled halfway down the face. I hit a fat pitch out to the front of the green and then ran in a 40' putt for birdie - one of the greatest stolen birdies I have ever had. However, it wasn't until I was on the green that I realized that even if I had cleared the bunker I would have been caught up in the waste area and without the skills of Seve would have struggled to get a par from there.
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Would it be a better hole if the waste area between the bunker and green was fairway?
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I don't think so Chris. Then the hole would just be about clearing the bunker, which many can do. The scrub at least (sometimes) penalizes those who try but can't shape the ball right to left. The hole is simple enough if you play it safe, so there has to be a real risk of bogey for being overly aggressive, IMO.
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Every time I look at an aerial of RMW I have to remind myself of the 4th hole. It's like my mind is conditioned to look for a "back" hole after the "forth and back and forth" of 1 and 2 and 3. Just the way Mac sort of unfolded the routing that way, curling outward then arcing back to "enable" the 5th and 6th holes.
Have to catch myself every time not to go "back" after I've traced the 3rd hole.
Does this happen to anyone else and why?
Mike C -- lovely post. You must be right about Mac and Seve, for Mac wrote of designing for the shot that had not been attempted. Didn't Seve promise the gallery they would see something they'd never seen before?
I hope he is hitting rocks on a beach with a 3-iron.
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The (416 meters/455 yards) 11th hole proceeds downhill and to the left from the tee.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3230/5711851356_bd0b894e25_z.jpg)
A pair of bunkers on the inside of the dogleg is set to accept overly ambitious, corner-cutting drives.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/5711851508_5fdfd33921_z.jpg)
More bunkers await misfired recovery and approach shots played up the gentle slope fronting the putting service.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2541/5711851624_7eb8812d48_z.jpg)
The green falls away at the rear to discourage over-clubbed second shots.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/5711851736_1d03fd0f9f_z.jpg)
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I think the fairway bunkers on 11 need "fixing"
Great post on the tenth, Clayts.
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I'm not sure they need much David. What would you propose?
You don't need to be right next to them to have the ideal angle of approach.
Something bigger and more imposing in there would look wrong to my way of thinking.
There are several non descript appearance bunkers on the course so they are not total oddities.
MM
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I'm not sure they need much David. What would you propose?
You don't need to be right next to them to have the ideal angle of approach.
Something bigger and more imposing in there would look wrong to my way of thinking.
There are several non descript appearance bunkers on the course so they are not total oddities.
MM
I would disagree with a suggestion that there are several similar bunkers on he course. I think they stand out for the follwoing reasons.
- the first bunker is built on a downslope and fights the land. Most of the bunkers on the course are built into natural upslopes.
- I don't think there are many holes with more than 1 driving hazard where the hazards aren't integrated into a single complex.
- the first bunker is almost blind from the tee. This is definitely not a common feature.
- One of the bunkers is relatively recent and it looks like the soil excavated has been clumsily dumped to form a series of mounds in the rough.
- the shaping is poor.
The last point is debatable but that still leaves 4 other points.
There are several options as to what you could do. Re-shape them, remove them, move the, etc. I just hope it is an area of consideration for the incoming consulting architect. I would expect them to find the right solution.
Personally, off the top of my head, I would remove the first bunker. It is poorly located on a downslope and barely visible from the tee. I think there might be scope to expand the second bunker into a larger complex that extends up the hill. There are enough bunkers on the course that challenge the short hitter (2, 4, 12, 18 etc) that a complex that challenges the long hitter wouldn't be out of place. The tree line might prohibit this slightly though, I would have to have a better look at it.
Removing both bunkers would also definitely be a good option IMO.
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David, I'll respond to more of your post later, when work permits.
Let me start by asking how much of the drive bunkers are visible from the tee on 2,6,12,14 and 17?
You know they're there, but can you clearly see the entire hazard?
MM
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I would like to see both bunkers filled in and a new bunker on a similar line to the first but 30 metres further up the fairway, creating a centreline bunker of sort (towards the left portion of the fairway), giving the option of going left of it or the safe play out right or taking it on to give the best line into the green. This is where the 11th fairway joins the 17th so there is plenty of width out right.
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David, I'll respond to more of your post later, when work permits.
Let me start by asking how much of the drive bunkers are visible from the tee on 2,6,12,14 and 17?
You know they're there, but can you clearly see the entire hazard?
MM
Matt, I didn't say anything about needing to see an entire hazard. I don't think any of the hazards you mention are as blind as the first bunker on 11 which the vertically challenged cannot see from the tee at all. The hazards you mention are all clearly visible. All except the bunker on 6 are cut into upslopes. If you are saying the bunkers on 11 are similar to those on 2 or 6 or 12, then that would be an interesting point of view.
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Not my point David. When you wrote -
the first bunker is almost blind from the tee. This is definitely not a common feature
I felt that comment was not entirely correct.
MM
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Do you think the hole would be improved by removing the trees/vegitation on the left, short of the bunkers?
The (416 meters/455 yards) 11th hole proceeds downhill and to the left from the tee.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3230/5711851356_bd0b894e25_z.jpg)
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Bill, if you look at the overhead view, there are a couple of houses very close to the left side of the hole, short of the bunkers.
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What a hole. One of my favourites.
As well as any hole in the world it shows why MacKenzie would have adored the way Severiano Ballesteros played golf.
I saw him play 4 days of the 1978 Australian PGA and it was a time when no one ever went for the green. Not even Norman.
Seve stood there every days and ripped a driver straight at the green.He never made it, coming down in the heathy waste land just short of the green. From there he played the most magical of shots and made three birdies and a par.
Seve is the only player to have won at Royal Melbourne,Augusta and St Andrews - and they are the three best courses pro golf goes to with any regularity.
MacKenzie never knew it, but he was building courses for Seve and this hole is a perfect example of reward for boldness,flair,spirit and talent.
This gets my nomination for Golf Club Atlas post of the year.
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2598/5711814646_5135f54599_z.jpg)
[/quote]
What a great hole, yes. And look at the horizon line of the green. Breathtaking.
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Dave/Matt,
I resisted the urge to comment on the 11th fairway bunkers in my initial post. I agree with many of your points, Dave.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/5711851508_5fdfd33921_z.jpg)
Aesthetically and functionally, the bunkers are simply too small relative the scale of the fairway and the bunkers up near the green. I would prefer that the bunkers were used in a way that influenced aggressive drives a bit better and shaped/maintained to soften the transition from fairway to native area (e.g. long/dry grasses on the outside edges), as seen elsewhere, including near the 11th green...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/5711851736_1d03fd0f9f_z.jpg)
and next to the 5th green.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/5711789194_40e2a712ae_z.jpg)
Then again, I thought Cypress Point had room for a few tiny improvements to a couple of holes, so I'm probably out of my gourd.
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Not my point David. When you wrote -
the first bunker is almost blind from the tee. This is definitely not a common feature
I felt that comment was not entirely correct.
MM
Matt,
Here is the bunker on two.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Royal%20Melbourne%20West/L1070061.jpg)
I have always felt that 17 had a pretty clear lip on the horizon, as did 12.
Worht pointing out that the second bunker on 11 is probably quite blind too because of the trees.
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You might like to post the photos from the 17th tee, and the 12 too Dave.
And maybe 14 while you're at it.
An uncropped photo from the 2nd tee would also be good.
Several drives bunkers are not totally visible to those on the tee, which is the point I'm trying to make.
One other point to consider when discussing the traps on the inside of 11, is the priority they'd take,
particularly considering holes like 6, 7, 8 15 and 17 East.
MM
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Several drives bunkers are not totally visible to those on the tee, which is the point I'm trying to make.
Yep, that is fine, but I believe the bunkers are 11 are the only ones that are totally blind from the tee.
11th tee
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Royal%20Melbourne%20West%203-11/DSC01633.jpg)
Actually, after looking at that, perhaps the whole tee shot needs to be looked at.
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I played from the back plates last time and remember some of the bunkers being visible. I might be wrong though.
Agreed - the 11th would be a better hole if the bunkers were pushed back a bit.
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With this sort of mounding beside the bunkers on 11, perhaps it's best that they are hidden from the tee.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/royal%20melbourne%20west/rmw11fbunkers.jpg)
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David/Matt the bunkers force you out right, with the boundary and houses tight left the club will want the golfer to go as far right as possible!
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Well picked up John - that mounding is terrible
I also agree with David on the bunkering scheme on the inside of the dogleg on 11. I think I recall only seeing a little bit of one of them off the tee. It must be a thing about the Sandbelts premier courses - the 11th at KH also has a terrible bunker placement off the tee.
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I also agree with David on the bunkering scheme on the inside of the dogleg on 11. I think I recall only seeing a little bit of one of them off the tee.
Well, if you can only see a little bit of one of them Kevin, then the rest of us have no bloody chance! ;D
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Well bowled, Mark! ;D
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I think the houses are far enough back to at least cut down the trees that block the view of the bunkers. Wonder what Tom Doak will say? I'm thinking his comments matter more than ours...
11th tee
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Royal%20Melbourne%20West%203-11/DSC01633.jpg)
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Well picked up John - that mounding is terrible
Elvins pointed that out before me. I just remembered noticing it and taking a photo.
As for being able to see the bunkers from the tee, Ferguson nailed it.
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A reachable par five (435 meters/476 yards), the 12th hole sweeps left as it ventures over a subtle ridge before dropping gradually down to the green.
This view is from just behind the 11th green. The 12th tees are down to the left and offer less visibility of the 12th fairway.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/5711851922_26619a958b_z.jpg)
This fairway bunker complex is easily carried with modern equipment unless a strong wind is blowing in. That tower in the distance offers a nice aiming point for the semi-blind tee shot.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2317/5711292471_fd2556a20b_z.jpg)
Many players can fire their downhill second shot at the amply-proportioned green after a solid tee shot, but native grasses or a bunker will punish attempts that fail to make the carry on that line.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3345/5711292615_c94d211232_z.jpg)
Looking back at the entrance to the green, with Tyler kindly providing a sense of scale (he is ~2 feet tall).
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2260/5711292853_fff733a551_z.jpg)
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Well bowled, Mark! ;D
Scott,
Kevin could see every flag at St Andrews Beach from his knees... ;D
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Well bowled, Mark! ;D
Scott,
Kevin could see every flag at St Andrews Beach from his knees... ;D
Dare I ask how this was discovered...?
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The 13th hole is set across a motorway, requiring golfers to walk several hundred feet around through paired gates to finally reach a tee that is quite near the 12th green as the crow flies. This then is one of a handful of holes not included in the Composite course used for major tournaments (along with 8, 9, 14,15, and 16).
At 134 meters (147 yards), on flattish ground, and featuring exquisite greenside bunkering carved from the edges of a raised green, the 13th seems quite like many other par 3 found in Melbourne’s Sandbelt. However, in reflection, I see just how quickly one gets spoiled by the vast number of terrific short holes in this part of the world.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/5711852882_99d174e995_z.jpg)
For those failing to find the green with their tee ball, short grass is found short/left and long. Bunkers are found on both flanks, though only one is to the left.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2201/5711853102_916a240958_z.jpg)
The firm, sloping green will test recovery shots. Many players will unwittingly play scotch hockey from bunker to bunker to bunker.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/5711853324_c96e8e152c_z.jpg)
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I've always thought this hole is a real achievement on a pretty flat featureless stretch of land.
MM
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MM
certainly an under-rated little gem this one. A lovely little green and very easy to walk off with a disappointing four.
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Don't talk to me about disappointing fours!! Exactly what has occurred the last three times I've played this hole. Must hit the green!
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Not all the green surface is visible from the tee. There's some good moevement in it, and a nice ridge which divides the front and back halves. Each year on Caulfield Cup day, there's a Charity Day at RM. A bookie sits at the 13th tee, and asks for $20 from each foursome. 3 balls on the green and it's money back. All 4 on, and it's $100 back! Needless to say, the bookie makes a tidy profit each year...
MM
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For mine the P3's (13 and 16) are the only real good holes over the road. 16 in particular is worth seeing on its own and is close to the best long P3 in Australia.
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For mine the P3's (13 and 16) are the only real good holes over the road. 16 in particular is worth seeing on its own and is close to the best long P3 in Australia.
Agreed, although the green complexes are pretty decent on 14 and 15.
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Personally, i enjoy playing 14 and 15 West. I'm not sure that they are great golf holes but i wouldn't say they are bad either. It has some pretty tough competition either side of them!!
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While it is easy to miss the sudden shift in topography at the short 13th, the 14th (335 meters/366 yards) appears starkly flat compared with its siblings across the road.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/5711853466_4442e821e8_z.jpg)
The fairway bends right around native grasses before diving through a narrow gap between bunkers protecting the green’s front.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2615/5711294029_e1714d5fd7_z.jpg)
The green slopes from right-to-left, favoring players that lay back to the left edge of the fairway. Big ballers could drive this green with favorable winds.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2433/5711294281_c8c335cf9b_z.jpg)
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To me, 13-16 is brilliant flat ground architecture. The features are smaller, more low-profile and understated than on the wild land over the road.
I also like the variety you get at 14 and 15 - the fairway hidden beyond the sea of native grass on the right at 14 and the rough-covered ridges at 15.
It all adds to the amazing amount of variety the course has and perhaps adds more to the whole than four more holes on wild undulations might have.
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Of the 15th (434 meters/477 yards), which was formerly the 4th hole on the old “Sandringham” golf course, architect Alister MacKenzie remarked “I’ll leave it more or less as it is, to show people how bad the old design was.” I didn’t think the 15th was half bad, though the tee shot is a bit dull.
The tees are left of frame (this is the view from the 14th green) and pointed at the wide and rather flat fairway viewed yonder.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3151/5711313965_3a79344702_z.jpg)
Once in the fairway, things may get a bit more interesting, especially if the green is within reach. If it is not, the broken ground up ahead is cause for concern.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2304/5711314129_48d04b50eb_z.jpg)
One can lay up past the broken ground and carry bunker (favor the right side) for an easy uphill approach.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3509/5711873726_49d5162aba_z.jpg)
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At the 16th tee one is faced with the last and longest par 3 of the round (202 meters/ 221 yards). The bunkering scheme seems to favor a right-handed draw, barring a significantly influential wind.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3120/5711314479_622bde37b0_z.jpg)
There is a bit of space just short of the green for low shots to run, but over-clubbed approaches will often run through the back.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2573/5711874092_ff73fb60f9_z.jpg)
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There's a nice little fallaway over the back of 16 and it's OK to be long or short - just not left or right 8)
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Players are faced with a challenging par 4 at the 17th tee (401 meters/439 yards). The drive must negotiate bilateral bunkers and an off-camber fairway that bends a bit to the left.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2787/5711314963_43a94d9a6b_z.jpg)
The simplest approach shots are played from near (or over) this bunker on the high, inside corner of the fairway.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/5711315265_c7f1b2b99a_z.jpg)
Tee shots that stray to the right will force players to contend with bunkers guarding the green’s starboard flank on the approach. The slope of the fairway may also push tee balls into the bushes boarding the low side of the fairway.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2154/5711874916_26b5306be6_z.jpg)
A pronounced slope at the front of the green complicates efforts to fire at this day’s pin position. Bunkering is used well here, not only from a strategic standpoint, but also to tie the green complex in with the bordering native areas.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3384/5711875168_8cc2b04ea7_z.jpg)
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I love this hole. The best green and greensite on the course IMHO, and it has some stiff competition.
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The 18th hole (396 meters/433 yards) asks for a tee shot that carries a diagonally positioned bunker complex to an off camber fairway that curves to the right, a nice counterpoint to the 17th tee shot. Sadly, with modern technology, the carry is not particularly daunting for decent players
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3120/5711316149_80feed9abf_z.jpg)
At the final green complex, the large putting surface is attractively bunkered around the periphery such that the day’s pin position will largely determine the hole’s overall difficulty.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/5711875678_c4740beefe_z.jpg)
A poor recovery shot or a strongly wind-aided tee shot might leave one with the “hardest shot in golf.”
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2261/5711316669_90f750cb86_z.jpg)
A wide view from the right provides a better sense of the green's enormity.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3642/5711316859_e320171c92_z.jpg)
Hefty visitor fees not withstanding, the West Course, is nearly idyllic as a golfing experience.
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I got fooled into carrying the bunker and was in rough. In reality you don't want to hit it right of the big turf island in the left side of the bunker.
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I got fooled into carrying the bunker and was in rough. In reality you don't want to hit it right of the big turf island in the left side of the bunker.
Scott
Did you hit the shot with a draw ?
Last time I played it - I aimed over the last section of it at the tree in the distance and got a nice kick onto the flatter section of fairway.
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Kyle,
Thanks for the tour.
It is a great course and the 18th is a fitting finale to a memorable experience.
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I love this hole (17). The best green and greensite on the course IMHO, and it has some stiff competition.
+1. Such a brilliant greensite, and exquisite bunkering.
Thanks for the photos & commentary Kyle.
That drive on 18 looks a little different these days with the absence of two large trees right of the fairway bunker complex.
MM
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I got fooled into carrying the bunker and was in rough. In reality you don't want to hit it right of the big turf island in the left side of the bunker.
Scott,
Tyler (accidently) hit a pushed fade over the right trees and had a flip wedge in while Bill and I played on your line and ended up through the fairway.
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So Kyle, where does RMGCW sit in your world of golf, with some time for contemplation, not a ranking as such, and in particular against the wide variety on 'new' courses you have played?
great tour, again, thank you.
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Yep, good stuff El Capitan.
Fond memories...
A special place and not to be forgotten any time soon.
Thanks for sharing as always.
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I love this hole (17). The best green and greensite on the course IMHO, and it has some stiff competition.
+1. Such a brilliant greensite, and exquisite bunkering.
Thanks for the photos & commentary Kyle.
That drive on 18 looks a little different these days with the absence of two large trees right of the fairway bunker complex.
MM
what good taste ;D
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Matt and Neil,
I agree. The 17th is probably now my favourite hole on the course. It doesn't quite reveal itself from the tee, but the view which unfolds as you walk up the fairway is one of the best in Australian golf.
Kyle,
Thanks for the pictorial. Great photos of a great course.
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So Kyle, where does RMGCW sit in your world of golf, with some time for contemplation, not a ranking as such, and in particular against the wide variety on 'new' courses you have played?
great tour, again, thank you.
The Royal Melbourne Golf Club probably boasts the best pair of courses of any 36-hole club I've visited, though The West (RMW) is clearly the star of the show. The Composite course is just a smidge better than RMW - not as much as I expected - and I was very surprised by the quality of the 16th from the East course, as it will be used in the Composite for just the first time in this year's president's cup.
From the few dozen courses I've now played down under, I think RMW ranks behind Barnbougle Dunes for me. BD is just a bit more “fun” and features a greater number of holes from top-to-bottom that I'm dying to play again ASAP. While there are no bad holes at RMW, I wasn’t overly enamored with 1,7,11,12, or 14. While they are likeable, almost every hole at BD is better than those ones, IMHO.
RMW is now a part of the city and while the quality of the course is undeniable, the ubiquitous security gates and hefty visitor fees detract from the experience. BD (and lost Farm) also benefit from peace and quiet and the relaxed, accessible vibe that I prefer.
Verdict: While I would relish another day at RMW, Barnbougle is the one I would revisit first.
Relative to American courses:
Cypress Point is still my favorite MacKenzie course. Ballyneal is still my favorite course anywhere. RMW and BD are just a bit behind, according to my sensibilities.
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So Kyle,
If someone asked you to put on a rater fedora and cold, hard rate them, you'd have:
1. Barnbougle Dunes
2. Royal Melbourne (West)
??
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A little video starring Mayhugh and Whitaker with special guest the RM Oldest Member:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiRHmorhwjQ
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So Kyle,
If someone asked you to put on a rater fedora and cold, hard rate them, you'd have:
1. Barnbougle Dunes
2. Royal Melbourne (West)
??
Well, as I said, RMW is hard to beat as an experience or a golf course, but sitting here at my desk I would most like to remove my ranking hat and have another round at Barnbougle Dunes or Lost Farm, away from the city, the housing, the streets and the crowds (on some very good courses).
In the Melbourne Sand Belt, Kingston Heath is probably the next best course after RMW, though I really enjoyed Victoria. But, again, I like the isolated feel (and topography) of Peninsula, so I’d probably opt for a day on the North and South courses with Mr. Ferguson, even though I probably would not rate either course quite so highly for any official publication.
Further down the Mornington Penisula, St. Andrews Beach is a unique offering of considerable merit. The property of The National Golf Club is pretty spectacular, even if none of the 3 courses quite match their potential. Portsea, though quite short and with many small flattish greens, is an absolute blast from tee to green – so many quirky and original holes are offered there!!!
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I love this hole (17). The best green and greensite on the course IMHO, and it has some stiff competition.
+1. Such a brilliant greensite, and exquisite bunkering.
Thanks for the photos & commentary Kyle.
That drive on 18 looks a little different these days with the absence of two large trees right of the fairway bunker complex.
MM
Warms my heart to see the three of us agreeing on 17 green. In all my travels I've come to believe that bunker represents the apex of artistry on a golf course -- perhaps the entire complex. Such wonderful proportions and elegant asymmetry.
Many thanks for the tour, Kyle.
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Thanks Kyle for sharing your passions with us.
Keep the tours coming.
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A bump in honor of this week's President's Cup being staged on the "Composite" course at the Royal Melbourne Golf Club.
Also, here's my shot of the 2nd hole on the East Course, which will play as the 12th hole in this year's configuration.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6105/6349132441_9c6a4066da_b.jpg)
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Kyle,
A photo tour of the East would be really nice if you have time. The ones I took are awful.
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Kyle,
A photo tour of the East would be really nice if you have time. The ones I took are awful.
I should have some time after this semester ends, although the rains we experienced that morning did wreak havoc on the quantity and quality of my photo-taking of the East.