Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Kyle Henderson on March 11, 2011, 02:09:18 AM
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Links to other pictorials of my Australian exploits:
Barnbougle Dunes
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47613.0.html
Barnbougle Lost Farm
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47929.0.html
Royal Melbourne - West
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48238.0.html
St. Andrew Beach- Gunnamatta
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48455.0.html
New South Wales
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48698.0.html
Woodlands
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48900.0.html
Portsea
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49351.0.html
The National golf Club - The Ocean Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49598.0.html
Victoria Golf Club
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49756.0.html
Welcome to Barnbougle Dunes, site of the first (annual?) GCA Boomerang.
Enjoy your view of the rising sun over a large breakfast, for today is to be savored.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5260/5582973538_6cba0b52b2_b.jpg)
Below is an overview of the 1st hole. Remember, the distances given are in meters!!!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5292/5516986858_832a3c16f1_b.jpg)
The opener is a reachable par 5 in favorable conditions. Tee shots are played between two large dunes and should favor the right side of the ample corridor.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5294/5516982564_5d69cc8c3f_b.jpg)
A fancy suite (?) overlooks the first tee.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5132/5516982718_ab8077c861_b.jpg)
The starboard route is shorter and affords one with a flatter lies.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5177/5516982834_ba5550f0c2_b.jpg)
Large undulations in the left half of the fairway usually preclude any “two-putt birdie” ambitions.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5215/5516392985_e040ff23b7_b.jpg)
A cross bunker at the right center will also dictate exactly how one chooses to place their second stoke. Shots played past the bunker on the left will yield favorable approaches down the long axis of the putting surface. A tricky false front protects pin positions near the green’s leading edge.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5019/5516393083_a08f4e8f1b_b.jpg)
The green slopes away from this right-side bunker – yet another reason to approach from the left side.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5516983194_5c644fd4c1_b.jpg)
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The photos are predictably awesome. Makes toting that SLR over your shoulder all week well worth it!
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Kyle
I look forward to your photo tours of the courses you saw whilst "down under".
What filter did you use on these ?
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Fantastic photography!! I can't wait to see the other holes. I know it is time consuming so thanks for putting the pictures up!!! I can't wait to get down there to play.
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Kyle
I look forward to your photo tours of the courses you saw whilst "down under".
What filter did you use on these ?
Mostly I just avoid the "F" word, until prompted.
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El Capitan,
I thought this was a pretty good starter. It really set the tone for what was ahead. The green is receptive if you go a little long and let the ball come back. Good recovery options around the green.
To the left off the tee are some "Dick Wilson" like mounds that are quite useful. They helped me twice in avoiding a lost ball.
I definitely like that right of center bunker in setting up for the approach.
Couple more pics to supplement this hole.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02302.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02309.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02311.jpg)
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Can't wait for more.
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Patrick,
You mention setting the tone, that was something I thought the opening holes at both Dunes and Lost Farm did really well.
Each hole is a perfect microcosm of the course as a whole.
I also love that both holes give the ballsy player the chance to immediately bite off as much as he can chew.
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Kyle:
Great pics -- can you comment as to the general prevailing wind during the winter months (the summer there) ?
Gives me an idea on how the hole plays what options influence the player(s).
thanks,
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I (lovingly) hate everyone who went on this trip!
Thanks for rubbing it in Kyle (I look fwd to more aesthetically wonderful pain).
Great photos.
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Kyle:
Great pics -- can you comment as to the general prevailing wind during the winter months (the summer there) ?
Gives me an idea on how the hole plays what options influence the player(s).
thanks,
The first hole plays directly into the prevailing wind, but sometimes play with the wind according to my sources. During my two rounds (on the same day), the wind was coming more from the left than from dead ahead.
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Patrick,
You mention setting the tone, that was something I thought the opening holes at both Dunes and Lost Farm did really well.
Each hole is a perfect microcosm of the course as a whole.
I also love that both holes give the ballsy player the chance to immediately bite off as much as he can chew.
Interesting. I thought almost the opposite. On both courses the first two holes ease you into the round. On both the second is the hole with the least undulation and on both courses (first time around at least) the next few holes take your breath away.
I have a lot of thinking to do about these two courses (I was there a few weeks ago) so I look forward to hearing what folk have to say. My only conclusion, thus far, is that Barnbougle Dunes is now my favourite course in Australia, having leapfrogged several of my favourite courses in the whole world. I will plan all my future visits to Australia around it.
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2nd hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5518711899_f9255df38d_b.jpg)
At the 2nd, the tee shot is played (generally into the wind) to the flattest fairway of the course, running between coastal dunes and a small airplane strip.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5519302696_bbf1f79baf_b.jpg)
Drives will do well to avoid the fairway bunkers guarding the left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5518711355_f91a748826_b.jpg)
The putting surface is elevated, and much deeper than it is wide.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5519303110_6a2566379c_b.jpg)
When viewed from the right side, one can perceive the slopes that repel shots missing short or wide of the 2nd green
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5212/5519354444_83db8d0eb3_b.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5519303348_494072bd91_b.jpg)
The green is divided into ~3 separate tiers, putting a premium on distance control for one’s approach. (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5518711617_520467236b_b.jpg)
Not only is the 2nd hole a decent test of golf, it also proved to be a popular ground for grazing and mating… especially (not exclusively) for wallabies.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5254/5519303548_b34ec25733_b.jpg)
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Kyle,
What are your thoughts on the second?
Some say it is one of the weaker holes on the course, however I think it has one of the best greens on the course!
Ben
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Thanks for this tour and the others that I am sure will come Kyle. From all sounds of it you just took my dream golf trip and I'm happy to live it through photos at least for the time being.
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Kyle,
What are your thoughts on the second?
Some say it is one of the weaker holes on the course, however I think it has one of the best greens on the course!
Ben
The second is quite bland really but, like every Doak-influenced hole I've ever played (now totaling 90), it features a well-selected green site that lends a satisfactory sense of finality to the hole. More importantly, it allows the rest of the routing to come together.
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Thanks for this tour and the others that I am sure will come Kyle. From all sounds of it you just took my dream golf trip and I'm happy to live it through photos at least for the time being.
I'm sure you'll enjoy plenty of our domestic golf riches later this year and the tables will be turned. ;)
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Kyle,
What are your thoughts on the second?
Some say it is one of the weaker holes on the course, however I think it has one of the best greens on the course!
Ben
Could it be considered weak because it lacks bunkers? I think it's a tough hole because it's very much into the wind. As Kyle states, the green isn't as wide as others and that means one has to be even more accurate in their approach.
Couple more pics to supplement the green impression. Definitely some movement going on here.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02320.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02321.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02322.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02323.jpg)
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Thanks for this tour and the others that I am sure will come Kyle. From all sounds of it you just took my dream golf trip and I'm happy to live it through photos at least for the time being.
I'm sure you'll enjoy plenty of our domestic golf riches later this year and the tables will be turned. ;)
Kyle, at lease for the time being, you are "Bi-Winning".
Keep the great photos coming.
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Loving this photo tour!
Quick question: Is that little top tier at the back of the green pinnable? And if so, would you ever want to play it back there, even just for a day?
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Loving this photo tour!
Quick question: Is that little top tier at the back of the green pinnable? And if so, would you ever want to play it back there, even just for a day?
It's pin-able, by my reckoning, and I'm all for variety.
Perhaps Brett or Matthew have seen the back pin...?
Spaulding,
Golf isn't about winning. It's about containing one's potential for failure.
Woody Austin is the only true disciple.
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Loving this photo tour!
Quick question: Is that little top tier at the back of the green pinnable? And if so, would you ever want to play it back there, even just for a day?
The pin was back right on Sunday. Made for a some interesting approach shots. There's just enough contour around the back of the green to catch a shot with just a little too much pace.
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Could it be considered weak because it lacks bunkers? I think it's a tough hole because it's very much into the wind. As Kyle states, the green isn't as wide as others and that means one has to be even more accurate in their approach.
Hooray for Patrick!
I've always felt this hole got unfairly bashed just because it wasn't in the big dunes and we didn't go nuts with bunkering on it. The green is its defense; if you hit a wide tee shot, the angle of the second to the ridge that the green is sited on makes for a very difficult shot. And, as Patrick notes, too, the hole nearly always plays into the wind, which makes it play much longer from the back tee than the impression you get from looking at the scorecard.
I guess nobody likes to make 5 without having a better explanation for it. ;)
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Guys,
I really like both opening holes, although I think they are near the weaker end of the 18. If you have a look at the course guide image of the second hole, you will notice some tree(s) out to the left, which frames the FW bunker, these were removed for the building of the runway for the small planes, I think this has certainly removed some framing and reference from the tee shot, and the land now just seems to run away up into the hills without any real defintion. the tee shot still has a number of decisions, long hitters will fly the trap to centre left for a wedge in, but anything less, has the bunkers in play, a stance/shot affecting mound in the centre of the FW and anything that is pushed or sliced left, brings the corner dune into play, the rough and restricted vision of the green site and having to fly in over the steepest side of the green right.
Note: It would be interesting to hear from TD at some point to hear his thoughts after his recent visit, particularly his views on a number of key holes and tees. #2 is one of those.
Definetly pinnable up the back as Sven says, and makes for fun putting around the slopes at the back.
nice work GS! and Pat.
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Tom you posted as I did - do you see a time where you may make it small recommendations for changes to BD? Do you think the owners will see fit to make that happen?
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Don't mean to be a stickler, but what about back left? On the tiny tiny shelf? I wouldn't pin it there for a public destination course like BD is, but it looks fairly flat up there.
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Alex,
that is spot we were speaking off, the little back shelf - from the right side of the FW it feels like it is back right.
but it is a great little spot - there are 3 more great little back shelves like that - 13, 15 - all pin positions that I look forward to very much.
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Could it be considered weak because it lacks bunkers? I think it's a tough hole because it's very much into the wind. As Kyle states, the green isn't as wide as others and that means one has to be even more accurate in their approach.
Hooray for Patrick!
I've always felt this hole got unfairly bashed just because it wasn't in the big dunes and we didn't go nuts with bunkering on it. The green is its defense; if you hit a wide tee shot, the angle of the second to the ridge that the green is sited on makes for a very difficult shot. And, as Patrick notes, too, the hole nearly always plays into the wind, which makes it play much longer from the back tee than the impression you get from looking at the scorecard.
I guess nobody likes to make 5 without having a better explanation for it. ;)
No bashing of the 2nd here. It offers plenty of challenge and strategy, as attested to by Mr. Morrissy.
My point is merely that I can't imagine anyone would pick it as their favorite hole. It's RELATIVELY bland when compared with the rest of the front nine, IMHO.
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Tom you posted as I did - do you see a time where you may make it small recommendations for changes to BD? Do you think the owners will see fit to make that happen?
Brett:
There were three or four things I saw on my recent visit, that I'd like to address at some point. None of them would be very costly, but one or two would be disruptive to play, so it's really a question of when and if they want to inconvenience visitors in order to satisfy my perfectionism. (That, and when I can spare the time and the manpower to get back there and do the fixing.) Luckily, I'm still in good standing with everyone involved, so there's a good chance it will happen eventually; but it's hard to justify when none of the customers are complaining about any of the things I want to change!
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Sven,
Slumming it down under? ;)
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Sven,
Slumming it down under? ;)
Jud:
No dramas. If by slumming you meant I was being a bludger, then no. But if you meant meeting some new cobbers and sharing some amber fluid and durry after some good golf, then yes. I hope I avoided getting cut snake, and I'm pretty sure I didn't lair it up or liquid vomit. I'd recommend you get down there soon, but bring some extra grundies, you'll wet the ones your wearing when you see the courses.
Cheers,
Sven
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The second was a favourite of mine. I guess when you spend any decent time at Deal you come to love bunkerless greens that create sufficient interest and challenge through the land alone.
2, 6 and 17 at Barnbougle Dunes really appealed to me for that reason.
I agree with Kyle that the green makes the hole in this instance, but I think the flatter fairways (2, 6, 10) are crucial parts of making the course work, just to even out some of the drama at holes like 3, 4, 5, 8, 12, 13, 15 etc. To that end, while 2 might not immediately jump out as a star hole, I think its importance in the grander scheme of things is massive.
Can I point out for those who are not aware, that the hole maps Kyle is posting are from the course guide, which was compiled by Ogilvy Clayton Design associate (and GCAer) Mike Cocking, who also did the books at Kingston Heath and Yarra Yarra, among other courses (www.golfrenderings.com.au)
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Scott,
The 17th has 2 bunkers around the green, one back left in the knob behind the green and the other centre right next to the hollow/bowl.
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Didn't see them! Initially I thought I must have been mixed up with 15, but an aerial reveals it has bunkers as well...
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Nice start to the tour, Kyle (and Patrick). The second green was one of my favorites, but I got more wallaby photos than green photos.
Any photos of the airstrip adjacent to the second fairway?
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(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/GCA%20Stuff/DSC02302.jpg)
Very cool pic.
Thanks to both of you for sharing. It's interesting to see the contrast in photography styles as well as of course the pics of the course.
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Guys,
I really like both opening holes, although I think they are near the weaker end of the 18. If you have a look at the course guide image of the second hole, you will notice some tree(s) out to the left, which frames the FW bunker, these were removed for the building of the runway for the small planes, I think this has certainly removed some framing and reference from the tee shot, and the land now just seems to run away up into the hills without any real defintion.
Do you like this or no?
No value attached, just curious. Me, I love lack of definition in general (haven't been to Barny yet).
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One of my groups had a plane take off from that airstrip as we walked the hole. The #2 green is very interesting. In one of my matches my opponent and I were both on the back of the green in two with the pin way up front. My opponent went first and proceeded to putt his ball off the green and into a bunker. We halved the hole.
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Hole #3 overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5172/5520276799_c9e4ca7e72_z.jpg)
After a short walk into the dunes, the 3rd tee offers a glimpse of the next fairway –the green is hidden down the right side. Conservative players will select a 3-wood or long iron aimed at the left edge of the far bunker. On blustery days, prevailing winds come at the player from the right and may force golfers to curl drives over the starboard dunes.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5138/5520868900_13ccef3b5e_z.jpg)
A prominent ridge bisects the fairway up ahead. Approaches played from left of this crest will have difficulty accessing left-side pin positions. Aggressive drives that carry the dune pictured on the right will yield birdie opportunities.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5134/5520869088_16d12eea42_z.jpg)
Along the right side, overly aggressive tee shots may be ensnared by this hidden fairway bunker or bushes.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5254/5520869320_da15f36d6f_z.jpg)
The putting surface is quite narrow, though it widens a bit in the rear.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5135/5520277731_1459d382ee_z.jpg)
From behind the green, one has a good view of the flanking bunkers and the slopes guarding the front edge of the putting surface.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5292/5527263995_8d707c3049_z.jpg)
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Brilliant hole. I'm really going to enjoy these photos - particularly the front 9.
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Good adition of the bottom pic, Kyle. really shows how much lower that left-hand shelf is.
One of the 5-6 brilliant Doak/Clayton short par fours I played that week.
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I felt the first hole to be a great starter. It really eased you into the round which I like, and provided options for the 2nd and 3rd shots.
The second hole I thought to be a very solid hole. I really liked the green as it placed a premium on hitting a solid tee shot, and it gave you plenty of recovery options if you missed the green.
The 3rd has a really clever green. Hit it down the right and have a nice shot along the length of the green, or bail out left and be left with a more difficult shot from the lower section of the fairway, having to hit across a bunker, but with the option of playing a running shot up to the green and bringing it off the bank on the RHS of the green.
Scott,
What were your favorite and least favorite holes at BD?
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Guys,
I really like both opening holes, although I think they are near the weaker end of the 18. If you have a look at the course guide image of the second hole, you will notice some tree(s) out to the left, which frames the FW bunker, these were removed for the building of the runway for the small planes, I think this has certainly removed some framing and reference from the tee shot, and the land now just seems to run away up into the hills without any real defintion.
Do you like this or no?
No value attached, just curious. Me, I love lack of definition in general (haven't been to Barny yet).
George, usually the definitions are ok for me, in this aspect I particularly liked the hidden mowing lines at Old Mac removing some perspective.
But, for this hole - it once had some definition, and that has been removed, so I prefer the previous, and also in particular to this hole (and perhaps with 10, but less so), it is the land on the farmland side of the links to the dunes, and is mediocre in this sense, the golf hole seems of less consequence becuase it almost disappears in the foreground before the surrounding hills, I do not think this adds to the hole in any way. It also doesn't help that I know what is around the next bend...:)
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One of my groups had a plane take off from that airstrip as we walked the hole. The #2 green is very interesting. In one of my matches my opponent and I were both on the back of the green in two with the pin way up front. My opponent went first and proceeded to putt his ball off the green and into a bunker. We halved the hole.
DK - I think he may have putted into the left bunker of 3? (no bunkers on 2), and the pin position on the Sat I think was up near the front left, so a putt back up the slope could have reasonable gone into that bunker?
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The putting surface is quite narrow, though it widens a bit in the rear.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5135/5520277731_1459d382ee_z.jpg)
From behind the green, one has a good view of the flanking bunkers and the slopes guarding the front edge of the putting surface.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5292/5527263995_8d707c3049_z.jpg)
I love this hole, I usually take a 3w & 5w/3i up to the tee box, always aiming to finish on the 'high road', and these will usually give me about 110-80m to the centre of the green. into a bit of breeze will certainly get the heart pumping, as anything with a slight cut will bring all the trouble on the right into play and potential for a lost ball, and anything left will make for a very tough shot into this fantastic green complex. The intriguing and most challenging part, exemplefied with the front pin position on Friday, from the preferred angle of the high road, the shot into that pin must be very well executed, or it will usually run all the way down the back, becuase the entire green centres around a small ridge/knob just short of the green that kicks everything away, anything short will go left or right, so stopping a wedge on a green sloping away from you is very difficult, trying to run a ball in is also a minefield, as Pup says, from down on the left is less troublesome off the tee, but the shot in is over everything, the front section is very narrow between the two bunkers, so bail out is to the back, with challenging putts to follow - a great green site maketh the hole.
the other great thing about this hole is the tee area, because as you climb the hill from the 2nd, you realise you reach a crest and on the other side is the end of the 6th - further enhancing your anticipation...
(http://gallery.me.com/brett65/100145/6th%20from%203rd%20Barny%202/web.jpg?ver=13001741820001)
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One of my groups had a plane take off from that airstrip as we walked the hole. The #2 green is very interesting. In one of my matches my opponent and I were both on the back of the green in two with the pin way up front. My opponent went first and proceeded to putt his ball off the green and into a bunker. We halved the hole.
DK - I think he may have putted into the left bunker of 3? (no bunkers on 2), and the pin position on the Sat I think was up near the front left, so a putt back up the slope could have reasonable gone into that bunker?
I wondered about this ... I won't take the blame for a guy putting into a bunker when the nearest bunker is 100 yards from the green!
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One of my groups had a plane take off from that airstrip as we walked the hole. The #2 green is very interesting. In one of my matches my opponent and I were both on the back of the green in two with the pin way up front. My opponent went first and proceeded to putt his ball off the green and into a bunker. We halved the hole.
DK - I think he may have putted into the left bunker of 3? (no bunkers on 2), and the pin position on the Sat I think was up near the front left, so a putt back up the slope could have reasonable gone into that bunker?
I wondered about this ... I won't take the blame for a guy putting into a bunker when the nearest bunker is 100 yards from the green!
Yes it was obviously #3, my mistake. Looking at the green we were back right and he putted into the left side bunker. #3 really is an awesome green.
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I thought the third was a great hole, superbly conceived. The first time I played it I took what seemed like a safe line: 3-wood down the left side. I pulled it, but thought I was fine due the great fairway width. When I got to the ball, I realized that I had to fully take on the front left greenside bunker with a full gap wedge. To me, this shot typifies the beauty and challenge of links golf. Back home on plush fairways and soft greens, I would have comfortably played past the pin and hoped to back the ball up. I would just take that bunker out of play. But off of a tight fairway and into a hard green, I had to hit a near perfect distance to hold the green. I bailed out right, into the right bunker, and made bogey.
The next time I hit an aggressive faded driver down the right side (a shot that is really uncomfortable when you view the hole from the tee) and was rewarded with a clear view of the hole and a safe par.
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A little description of turf conditions and grass variety, please. It looks a bit crusty and dry ... is that typical?
Thanks.
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A little description of turf conditions and grass variety, please. It looks a bit crusty and dry ... is that typical?
Thanks.
Carl,
The conditions were definitely fast and firm, but not quite as "hard-packed" as some links courses that I have played. To be honest, I find the really hard-packed links courses just too hard to play (I thought this several times at Pac Dunes and some other links courses in Ireland.) I thought Barnbougle Dunes was perfect, just a tad softer, a tad more grass under the ball, so that you felt somewhat comfortable playing wedges from inside 100 yards.
The greens rolled really well. They were firm but well-struck shots held. The greens were certainly not plush by US parkland standards, but you wouldn't want them to be plush.
I'm sure the fairways and greens were fescue. The marron grass was cut back far more at BD than at Lost Farm, so you at least had a prayer of finding a wayward shot.
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It's all fescue and marram grass.
I suspect that Bill found Barnbougle "a tad softer" than Pacific Dunes because they don't have the budget to topdress as often. Short-term, that may be okay, but long-term, it's important to stay on top of it to keep thatch from getting out of control. Fescue produces much more thatch than one might imagine, and since it doesn't creep aggressively to cover aeration holes, frequent topdressing is the only good way to control it.
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A little description of turf conditions and grass variety, please. It looks a bit crusty and dry ... is that typical?
Thanks.
In addition to Bill's observations (firm and fast fairways and greens, true but not particularly quick greens), I would add that the green speeds were a bit inconsistent. More exposed (to wind and sun) putting surfaces tended to run more quickly (e.g. the 7th), while patches that has sand blown on them out of adjacent bunkers were quite slow. On very complex greens (e.g. the 13th), the humps rolled more quickly than the swales (where water collects).
This inconsistency was exacerated at Lost Farm, as the course is certainly not close to maturation -- it still plays pretty well, even at this early juncture.
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A little description of turf conditions and grass variety, please. It looks a bit crusty and dry ... is that typical?
Thanks.
In addition to Bill's observations (firm and fast fairways and greens, true but not particularly quick greens), I would add that the green speeds were a bit inconsistent. More exposed (to wind and sun) putting surfaces tended to run more quickly (e.g. the 7th), while patches that has sand blown on them out of adjacent bunkers were quite slow. On very complex greens (e.g. the 13th), the humps rolled more quickly than the swales (where water collects).
This inconsistency was exacerated at Lost Farm, as the course is certainly not close to maturation -- it still plays pretty well, even at this early juncture.
Kyle:
Isn't what you described above completely natural? And wouldn't it be very expensive to counteract -- i.e. to speed up the unexposed greens more, or to slow down the others? Of course, you'd want to sweep any sand off the greens where it is blowing out of bunkers, but not at the expense of adding another person to staff.
I am familiar with one superintendent who told me some things he did to allow super-fast speeds on greens with a lot of slope -- among other things, he said he fertilized more heavily on the transitions between tiers so that balls wouldn't get away and go off the greens quite so quickly! I was amazed at what he described, but wondered whether other clubs were really pursuing similar things. The course in question would have been just fine with its greens at 9 or 10, by the way.
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A little description of turf conditions and grass variety, please. It looks a bit crusty and dry ... is that typical?
Thanks.
In addition to Bill's observations (firm and fast fairways and greens, true but not particularly quick greens), I would add that the green speeds were a bit inconsistent. More exposed (to wind and sun) putting surfaces tended to run more quickly (e.g. the 7th), while patches that has sand blown on them out of adjacent bunkers were quite slow. On very complex greens (e.g. the 13th), the humps rolled more quickly than the swales (where water collects).
This inconsistency was exacerated at Lost Farm, as the course is certainly not close to maturation -- it still plays pretty well, even at this early juncture.
Kyle:
Isn't what you described above completely natural? And wouldn't it be very expensive to counteract -- i.e. to speed up the unexposed greens more, or to slow down the others? Of course, you'd want to sweep any sand off the greens where it is blowing out of bunkers, but not at the expense of adding another person to staff.
Sir Doak,
It is completely natural and acceptable. My point is that one must learn of this trait quickly to score well, especially if playing 36 holes worth of matches that day!
The only time this characteristic has ever bothered me was on the Himalayas Putting Course in St. Andrews where the troughs were full of green, inch-high grass while the moguls where tightly mown.
My observations aside, You might be keen to learn that the greens keeper for Lost Farm mentioned the use of wetting agents on more exposed areas of turf…
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Kyle:
FYI, Phil Hill is the greenkeeper for both Bill's course and mine, and I don't think he could be doing a better job.
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That 3rd hole (in pics) reminds me a bit of 6 at Chambers Bay, especially the green complex.
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it never fails to amaze me when conditioning is brought in to the discussion. Golf courses aren't basketball courts. Golf takes place in nature not a vacuum. I'm amazed and enchanted by the pictures of Barnbougle. Never once have I thought to myself "I wonder what those greens are rolling?" when looking at golf porn. Do people play this great game for the sole purpose of trying to post a 87 instead of an 89?
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it never fails to amaze me when conditioning is brought in to the discussion. Golf courses aren't basketball courts. Golf takes place in nature not a vacuum. I'm amazed and enchanted by the pictures of Barnbougle. Never once have I thought to myself "I wonder what those greens are rolling?" when looking at golf porn. Do people play this great game for the sole purpose of trying to post a 87 instead of an 89?
Proper conditioning affects how well the design and shaping influence play. I'm surprised you believe the two topics should be isolated.
Barnbougle, in its current condition, offers a world-class experience. Were it covered in mud and clay or stimping at 1 foot, none of its lovely undulations would matter very much.
I spent much of my time rolling balls around the greens with my playing companions, laughing with glee as we witnessed the various options for approaching different pins. Score was not a primary concern.
I'm not really sure why my comments above were taken as criticisms. They were merely observations offered in response to Carl's query.
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4th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5528096484_fcbb48373d_z.jpg)
A lovely little par 3.75, the 4th at Barnbougle is purported by a few noted critics to be perhaps the best hole built in Australia during the last 50 years.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5220/5528096830_e5d578b7d6_z.jpg)
Options abound. One can a) lay up short of the prominent fairway bunker and leave a small but blind pitch, b) hit a longish club to the left corner for a better view of the approach, or c) try to drive one up into the punchbowl green complex. The strength of the day's wind (usually hurting) will often be the deciding factor.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5528097028_0dcbded962_z.jpg)
The penalty exacted upon the overly aggressive drive (option c) can be quite severe…
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5258/5527507735_c3fa92cb0c_z.jpg)
Option b allows for shots played directly at the day’s pin, with bilateral sideboards generally providing favorable kicks to pushed or pulled pitches.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5132/5528097462_72dd2352ce_z.jpg)
Reaching the green, one can distinguish its “V” configuration.
Pup generously agreed to pose for the camera, lending a sense of scale -- he’s 7’5”.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5528097720_742a111150_z.jpg)
Pins located in the left/rear portion of the green (opposite this camera position) might be more easily accessed via options A and C… What say ye, resident experts?
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5298/5527525731_19d573de4b_z.jpg)
It’s a superb hole, but fortunately there are plenty more gems ahead, not to mention the spectacular walk to tee #5.
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Plenty more gems indeed. There can't be too many better stretches of golf on the planet than 3-7 at Barnbougle Dunes.
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This is certainly one of my favorite holes that I've ever built. Much like the 7th at Ballyneal, it took quite a while to figure out what we were going to do, but then not long at all to actually build it.
I played it twice on my recent visit to Australia, with the pin set back left for both rounds ... and both times I yanked an approach up over the dune on the left, and lost the ball!! You would think the hole would be kinder to me, but I guess it has still not forgiven me for driving onto the green on my previous visit.
While Mike Clayton and I [and/or Greg Ramsay!] get most all of the credit for Barnbougle Dunes, the person who should get more credit is my associate Brian Schneider, who ran the job and shaped the majority of the greens. [Eric Iverson and I shaped the others.] We were just finishing up Cape Kidnappers, and most of my other associates wanted to get back to the USA, and on top of that I wasn't sure how much we were going to get paid for the job -- so I assigned my youngest associate to run it and figured it was a great opportunity for him to shine. It was certainly one of my better hunches.
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I'm very well travelled and I would put the 4th up against any of the greatest fours the game has to offer.
Peter Wood educted me on how to play the hole for each winds and pin. Watching him explain each route, the shot required, then hitting the exact shots he needed that day to that pin and then explaining how the internal features work and what he used was simply awesome. Throw in 50 putts and I was ready for the next day through....
Three guys - two rounds - six completely different routes to the green. Nuf' said
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It's a really uncomfortable tee shot for such a short hole. There should be nothing wrong with playing just a bit short of the bunker and having a blind approach, but it's tough playing smart like that. Hitting the left hand side of the fairway seemed to be tough, and unless you're laying back not much of a miss is required to end up in the right bunker.
This is the hole I would like to play over and over to see if I could get confident on how to play it.
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John's right, it's wonderful how difficult it can be choosing a route to the hole, especially on a hole that can't be more than 260m to the pin, punchbowl green, plenty of short grass...
Really, a lay-up of 160m or so leaves a wedge to a punchbowl green, which shouldn't be too much to ask of most players and downwind the 210m or so required to carry the trap and run down to the green should be within a lot of players' capabilities, yet the hole causes so much consternation and indecision. I love it.
It was a common theme of the Doak/Clayton short fours at Barny Dunes and St Andrews Beach - driving the green seemed not just possible, but well within a decent handicap amateur's ability given the right wind, and laying up seemed like such a simple way to make par, yet the brilliant land coupled with hazard placement and some brilliant short par four greens (StAB #2 & #14, BD #4 & #12) created so much interest.
Those holes are all among the best reachable par fours I have played.
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Scott:
I think one of the things that really helped out in building all those cool short par-4's in Australia was that we were working in meters, and as such, I was even less focused on the exact yardages of the holes than normal. I love short par-4's, but if I was in the States and I was building a bunch of holes just UNDER 300 yards, a lot of people would notice that and some would be uncomfortable with it and we probably would wind up lengthening a couple of them. But in Australia, I didn't think twice about being under 300 meters, or exactly how far under 300 meters, and neither of our clients questioned it at all because we could point to holes like the 10th at Royal Melbourne (West) or the 3rd at Woodlands that everyone respected. So, all four of those short par-4's you referred to are actually UNDER 300 yards.
I was a bit surprised to see Bill Coore do the same thing at Lost Farm, though. You'd think he would try to be different. ;)
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I played this hole 3 times, but only once when the pin was back left. To me, the only sensible play off the tee is to aim right at the bunker and stay short of it. (short right is a better angle, but a longer shot...just great design, the longer you hit it off the tee, the worse your angle gets!) I hit 220 yd. 5 woods (minus the wind) the first two times into the wind (left me with full wedge, but I hit knocked down 9 irons) and 4 iron last time with light wind left me full gap wedge. All blind approaches...you have to walk up and pickout a piece of the trap to aim at!
I think the best way to the back pin is to hit it one club extra, go long and trust it will back up off the slope. But it is a blind shot, you'll never see it roll back unless you can sprint real fast uphill (It would be worth the run!), but I figured that out too late, after a safe bail out right and a 2 putt. I was dying to go back and try it again...
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I played this hole 3 times, but only once when the pin was back left. To me, the only sensible play off the tee is to aim right at the bunker and stay short of it.
That was my choice when faced with teh same pin and the only successful pass I had at the hole.
The approach is blind, but the angle was appealing.
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But in Australia, I didn't think twice about being under 300 meters, or exactly how far under 300 meters, and neither of our clients questioned it at all because we could point to holes like the 10th at Royal Melbourne (West) or the 3rd at Woodlands that everyone respected. So, all four of those short par-4's you referred to are actually UNDER 300 yards.
You mean the 4th at Woodlands, correct?
The sandbelt and Mornington Peninsula are flush with great, short par 4s. Other goodies, while perhaps not quite up to the same standard, include Victoria's 1st and 15th, Portsea's 13th, and The National-Moonah's 9th.
It's pretty amazing just how special the short 4's are in Bridport. Barnbougle Dune's 4th and 12th along with Lost Farm's 3rd and 14th comprise an absolutely world-class selection.
Sir Doak,
Thank you for your insights.
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Kyle,
I can't remember if I mean the third or fourth at Woodlands. Both of them are short par-4's, aren't they? Which is the one with the small, raised, bunkerless green? I started to say the fourth, but thought that the hole I wanted ran opposite in direction to the par-3 5th.
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Tom D:
What is the carry of the bunker on the 4th -- is it around 250 yards ?
If the carry is made -- can the green be driven ?
How much does the right side pinch in for those incllined to milk it down that side ?
thanks,
p.s. great pics indeed !
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It's a really uncomfortable tee shot for such a short hole. There should be nothing wrong with playing just a bit short of the bunker and having a blind approach, but it's tough playing smart like that. Hitting the left hand side of the fairway seemed to be tough, and unless you're laying back not much of a miss is required to end up in the right bunker.
This is the hole I would like to play over and over to see if I could get confident on how to play it.
John,
That's kind of how I felt as well up front.
All,
The hole looks pretty cool. Then I'm looking at what it's going to take to get over that bunker. Hmmm ... not sure I can fly that from the Terra Cottas with a little wind coming on. So go down to the ladies tees? I guess, but why do that since the Terra Cotta tees end up working for me on just about every other hole.
So out came the bunt 3i on all three rounds. I can only recall seeing myself and Mark Ferguson doing this.
From what I remember, everyone in front of us or in my group on all three rounds went for it and got in trouble.
But almost as soon as I finish the hole ... I kind of feel lame for not having gone for it.
It's very tempting, but for the mid HCP / distance kind of player is really singular. There's only option a) really if you're being smart about it. I'm glad the option is there though...
I think this hole is more fun for the longballer.
I'm glad the green is punchbowl like, because that tends to work on these blindish kinds of shots for options a) and b). For c) if it comes in hot, I'd be pissed to not be rewarded with a green hold. So it works there too.
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Patrick:
These drivable par-4 holes are ALWAYS more fun for the long hitter. That's the main reason I haven't built more of them; they are praised on sites like this much more than in the average club's grill room, where only 15% of the players are ever going to actually drive the green.
However, I think you're dismissing Option B too quickly. If the hole is in the front half of the green, lots of players would be better off driving long left and hitting lengthwise into that section, than playing short right and hitting a blind second and trying to judge the distance exactly right into the wind. And on the rare occasions where the hole is playing downwind, the approach from the left is also easier; you can miss it a bit to the right and the ball feeds back into the green, whereas the same slope will kick you past the hole if you are coming in from low and right.
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Tom D:
What is the carry of the bunker on the 4th -- is it around 250 yards ?
If the carry is made -- can the green be driven ?
How much does the right side pinch in for those incllined to milk it down that side ?
thanks,
p.s. great pics indeed !
Matt:
See the diagram in post #58. According to the book, it's 221 meters to reach the upper right fairway, and only 243 meters to the front edge of the green. But the hole is generally playing into a pretty stiff breeze, so there are days when even you would have to think about whether to go for it or not. If you can make the carry, you can certainly drive the green -- I've even done it with a hint of breeze at my back. In fact the right-hand fairway feeds down into the bowl, so it would be fairly unusual to make it over the bunker and NOT wind up on the green -- though when playing into the breeze, some balls just stop right where they land.
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Patrick:
These drivable par-4 holes are ALWAYS more fun for the long hitter. That's the main reason I haven't built more of them; they are praised on sites like this much more than in the average club's grill room, where only 15% of the players are ever going to actually drive the green.
Tom,
I think you are underselling the holes a bit there. Like 2 at St Andrews Beach, 4 at Barnbougle works really really well as a drivable par 4 or a drive and pitch par 4. You might be a bit surprised as to how many people can play these holes as a drivable par 4 when the wind is behind too.
MattM, Tom, Brett,
I am up to 14 rounds at BB/LF. I think I have had
Westerly 5
easterly 6
Other 3
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Kyle,
I can't remember if I mean the third or fourth at Woodlands. Both of them are short par-4's, aren't they? Which is the one with the small, raised, bunkerless green? I started to say the fourth, but thought that the hole I wanted ran opposite in direction to the par-3 5th.
The 4th has the raised, bunkerless green, and it does run in the opposite direction to the 5th.
Below is a shot I took of the 4th at Woodlands a few weeks ago.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5054/5531492730_1c06ed80ac_z.jpg)
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The SLR really brings out the best in the warehouse, Kyle. :)
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I see the merit of this hole and played it differently three times just to test strategies out. However - never did I consider using driver.
I am upfront in that I am not a long hitter but twice I laid up with different clubs short of the big bunker - which left a blind SW/PW in.
On one occassion I hit a 5W into it and caught a horrible lie in the bunker which was virtually unplayable
(http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/5143/pallierbd4plugged.jpg)
I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.
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I see the merit of this hole and played it differently three times just to test strategies out.
If you were trying different strategies out, you should have tried hitting left of the bunker. there is 40+ yards of fairway out there and it offers a very different approach angle to the green than playing short of the bunker.
If you have hit 5 wood into the bunker that is very poor execution with the large amount of fairway to the left.
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David,
Wasn't this bunker coined "David's Love Den"? :-)
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If you have hit 5 wood into the bunker that is very poor execution with the large amount of fairway to the left.
David
Am not denying my shot was poor execution. I normally play with a draw and tried to play a shot off the middle of the bunker- I just happened to hit one straight.
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2nd hole overview
Not only is the 2nd hole decent test of golf. It also proved to be a popular ground for grazing and mating… especially (not exclusively) for wallabies.
Isn't that weird to have the cart girl arrive so early on the course?
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One visit to that bunker should be enough for anyone. Recovery from it would be tough for me in the best of circumstances, but with all of that sand it's pretty much impossible.
I realize that there is room left of the bunker, but on the tee it didn't feel like there was. Smart play for me is to club to be short of the bunker, which means my next time there I'll try to hit the left side of the fairway even with or past the bunker.
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Who did the drawings? I like them as well as the pics!
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Who did the drawings? I like them as well as the pics!
Scott Warren mentioned this in reply #31.
Can I point out for those who are not aware, that the hole maps Kyle is posting are from the course guide, which was compiled by Ogilvy Clayton Design associate (and GCAer) Mike Cocking, who also did the books at Kingston Heath and Yarra Yarra, among other courses (www.golfrenderings.com.au)
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I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.
Kevin:
Thanks for setting up one of my favorite quotes of all time.
When I was at the Open at Royal Troon in 1982, Gary Player was quoted in the press as saying the bunkers had too much sand in them. The Scottish press naturally went to the greenkeeper to ask what he thought of that comment, and he replied:
"As far as I know it is pure sand all the way to China, so I don't know what we could do about it."
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If you have hit 5 wood into the bunker that is very poor execution with the large amount of fairway to the left.
David
Am not denying my shot was poor execution. I normally play with a draw and tried to play a shot off the middle of the bunker- I just happened to hit one straight.
Kev,
My point was that to that pin you can aim 10-20 yards left of the bunker and hit a draw and be in a pretty good spot. The hole has more 'options' than you thought it did!
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David,
I agree that there is plenty of room to go left of the bunker, but hitting it there presents a whole different set of issues. Let's say I don't want to take on the bunker with driver and hit a good 3-wood left. Now I've got 35--65 yards, a half-shot that many golfers don't like, especially off of a tight fairway. It is going to be hard to get any spin on the ball, so holding the green is an issue. Putting is not really an option, especially if the pin is left, the large mound guards the entire left side of the green. I guess if the pin is on the right side you might be able to putt to the right bank and hope it kicks off the slope and comes back to the green...I'm not used to this kind of "long-range" putting, I wonder if any of the Aussies or Tom think this is a viable option?
However, if the pin is left and the back slope really works to feed the ball back (I don't see how the ball can stay on that slope) maybe I would be better off going long left, so that I have the shortest possible shot to hit the back slope. But as Kevin points out, now if you miss your tee shot right, you are guaranteed to end up in the bunker and you can say good-bye to par.
To me, this comes down to your philosophy on how to attack short par 4's. I hate screwing up these holes with my tee shot, so I would almost always choose a club that will leave me just short of the trap and try to make birdie with a good full wedge and my putter, and expect to make par almost every time. Now when it comes to the 12th hole, which we'll see later, my decision will be different because that hole sets up so much better for a fade, my natural shot, because the landing area seems much deeper than the "slot" that Hole 4 shows me. The second bunker is there to catch any ball that does not fade back to the 4th green. On 12, there is more friendly-looking slope that will help feed the ball back, and you'll maybe miss the green on the left. It is so cool that there are two somewhat similar driveable par 4's that lead me to different decisions!
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Put me down as one who really likes this hole, with one caveat. In three plays, my tee shots ended up well left, short of the bunker and in the bunker. Of the three, the drive I hit the best was the third, an almost bunt driver I was trying to run 10 yds left of the bunker, only to see it catch the contours and feed straight into the bottom of the massive pit. I managed to hit the green from all three locations and made par each time (twice with realistic birdie chances), so no matter where you end up you're still in the hole (unless you plug in the face of the bunker).
My one complaint has to do with the contours that feed balls from the middle to the right and consequently into the bunker. Especially when played into the wind, it seems like a low straight shot to the heart of the fairway should be rewarded.
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If you are going to layup on the 4th, it needs to be well back near the 84 metre distance sprinkler (180m from the tee max), not anywhere near the bunker, especially if the pin is back left. The temptation however is to try to get the layup close to the bunker to shorten the second shot, but its a very difficult short pitch from there over the trap. A superb hole.
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I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.
Kevin:
Thanks for setting up one of my favorite quotes of all time.
When I was at the Open at Royal Troon in 1982, Gary Player was quoted in the press as saying the bunkers had too much sand in them. The Scottish press naturally went to the greenkeeper to ask what he thought of that comment, and he replied:
"As far as I know it is pure sand all the way to China, so I don't know what we could do about it."
Tom
Each to their own - I like the hole but think the setup of the bunker isn't quite right. Having tee shot balls plug into the wall isn't what I would have thought was your original design intent of the hazard ?
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Kev,
My point was that to that pin you can aim 10-20 yards left of the bunker and hit a draw and be in a pretty good spot. The hole has more 'options' than you thought it did!
David
The neck is quite narrow down there in terms of a view to the green obviously the closer you go to the bunker. The further left you go the longer shot you have in. Anything further left is a blind pitch over a deep marram filled dune where many balls get lost. Of course one can play it any different number of ways. How do you normally attack it in your 14 odd plays ?
Do you think the bunker needs to be as big and as much sand in it to achieve the same purpose ?
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I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.
Kevin:
Thanks for setting up one of my favorite quotes of all time.
When I was at the Open at Royal Troon in 1982, Gary Player was quoted in the press as saying the bunkers had too much sand in them. The Scottish press naturally went to the greenkeeper to ask what he thought of that comment, and he replied:
"As far as I know it is pure sand all the way to China, so I don't know what we could do about it."
Tom
Each to their own - I like the hole but think the setup of the bunker isn't quite right. Having tee shot balls plug into the wall isn't what I would have thought was your original design intent of the hazard ?
Kevin:
I am just saying there's not much anybody could really do about it. The sand is loose because it's a deep bunker and because it gets stirred up from too many players getting into it. The big bunkers at Royal St. George's and St. Enodoc most likely have the same problem.
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My one complaint has to do with the contours that feed balls from the middle to the right and consequently into the bunker. Especially when played into the wind, it seems like a low straight shot to the heart of the fairway should be rewarded.
Really, Sven? You chose an aggressive club that could reach the bunker, why complain that the slope of the hole made you pay the price? And the "middle of the fairway" you saw on the tee was not the "middle" once you picked out the driver, you had plenty of room left for that shot. Was that Sunday morning when the wind was light? I think you could have hit a full 4 iron or rescue club, knowing you'd get far less roll and never reach the sand.
I totally disagree that this hazard is too severe on this short hole. If the hole was longer than 370 meters or 400 yards, and the architect was forcing me to challenge the bunker, I might have a different opinion. But as mentioned above, a 180 yd shot off the tee stays short of the bunker and leaves you with a short iron, so anyone landing in that hazard was gambling on the tee. And if the hazard had water in it, not sand, it would be a far more severe penalty and no one would complain...
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Bill, one of the overlooked aspects of the layup option on 4 at Barnbougle is the required trajectory of the approach shot, which is significantly uphill, to a small target (esp if the pin is back left). If the decision is made to not try to carry the fairway bunker, especially into the prevailing wind, the last thing you want to be doing is hitting a 60 yard pitch shot high into the air over the cavernous bunker into the previaling wind to a tiny target. The easier approach shot is therefore played from well back from the bunker to right, where an 80-90 metre pitch can be speared more into the breeze with greater control, rather than a wishful waft with the lob wedge from 60 metres which could end up anywhere if the wind gets it.
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KP,
I'm with you. Bloody sand ruins many a good bunker. ;D
Brian
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If the decision is made to not try to carry the fairway bunker, especially into the prevailing wind
I would surmise that this is a decision the vast, vast majority of the clientele are never going to have to make, Shane.
Rubbish hole.
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KP,
I'm with you. "Too much" Bloody sand ruins many a good bunker. ;D
Brian
Fixed :)
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My one complaint has to do with the contours that feed balls from the middle to the right and consequently into the bunker. Especially when played into the wind, it seems like a low straight shot to the heart of the fairway should be rewarded.
Really, Sven? You chose an aggressive club that could reach the bunker, why complain that the slope of the hole made you pay the price? And the "middle of the fairway" you saw on the tee was not the "middle" once you picked out the driver, you had plenty of room left for that shot. Was that Sunday morning when the wind was light? I think you could have hit a full 4 iron or rescue club, knowing you'd get far less roll and never reach the sand.
Bill:
My bunt driver may be the equal of your 4 iron or rescue club. I thought I was playing a conservative shot away from the bunker, a low, hooking, running shot that started left of the left edge of the bunker and was moving towards the "middle" of the fairway. It was indeed on Sunday morning, and I was trying a shot that was different from my previous two drives on the hole. I now know that for me there are only two plays, hit long and left flirting with the rough line or short of the bunker and face the blind approach. My point was that the actual size of the hazard is greater than its already pretty significant width (see the pictures above), a fact that is not evident from the tee and only learned by trying the shot I mentioned (after playing the hole twice with 6 other players I had not seen a single ball catch that slope and turn right the way mine did). In effect, that bunker can punish those who play aggressively (trying to drive the green and failing to make the carry) and those who play conservatively (trying to run a ball by the bunker on a line outside of its visual parameters).
There were a few bunkers on the course that were surrounded by contours that served to gather shots that initially looked like they would be safe. The slope to the right of the center line bunker on 15 is one spot, as well as the fairway bunker on 11 are two that come to mind. Its a feature i like, one that gets appreciated after repeated plays. However, on 4, with the limited options for most players off the tee, I was surprised this type of shot was not rewarded. Now I know.
With regards to the amount of sand in that bunker, I found the shot from the flat area to be manageable. It definitely seemed that the higher up the face you were the more likely you were to plug, and pay the price for having tried and failed at an aggressive play off the tee.
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Sven,
As I recall, the fairway short of the bunker is effectively split in half, a higher shelf on the left and a lower shelf on the right. Your ball obviously caught the slope that divides these two halves, and fed it into the bunker. So I don't think your choice of shots was conservative, rather it was moderatelty aggressive, you were trying to get past the trap. I think that slope is too severe to hold any draw (maybe a hot hook wont feed down...) so your effective landing zone was cut in half, and I think your target needed to be 20 yards left of what appears to be the middle.
Shane,
I agree 100%, I would almost always choose to lay back and leave myself with a full shot. However, if I get to play there again and the pin is back left, I think I will go long left off the tee and knock something into the back slope, letting the ball feed back to the pin. I think that gives me a huge target in any type of wind conditions. I think any shot that carries the mound and lands on the front of the green, pin high, on the back of the green, or 5-10 yards over the green, will end up within 20 feet of the cup.
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I still vividly recall the first time I seen this hole early one morning - jaw dropping from the tee and so much fun, IMO has many options right thru the bag, the only option unavailable cmes at a carry distance of 200m - if you cannot fly it that far, then a shot to the green is off the cards, but I do not think that limits 'most' of the clientele.
In benign conditions I will hit 5w to left side or 4i layup to bunker (Sven, taking out the centreline ridge potentially kicking your ball into the bunker), downwind I will have a crack, mates I play with a big hitters and always hit Driver and sometimes hit 3w onto the green. One important point that is always in my mind, particularly from the bottom deck, is that I must add two clubs for the shot up the hill and then extra for the breeze if into it - so if I am down at the 85m sprinkler head, that means I am hitting a 105m shot, no matter where the pin is cut, and if it is a 2-3 club breeze then that makes it a 125-135m shot - that is a challenging thing to get your head around when you are looking up this cavernous awesome bunker sand flash in front of you. Exciting.
and the shot from the left, if the pin is left, requires great distance control and judgement, becuase too long or short is trouble - all these thoughts in your head - they do not happen on boring, flat parkland golf.
One of my favourtie short p4's in the world.
Kyle - nice management of the thread, letting the great holes 'have some time'
bm
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Savor the walk to the 5th tee.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5053/5539926453_40077ea471_z.jpg)
5th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5217/5540507046_c73ca68d03_z.jpg)
At last, the player has the prevailing wind at his back as he/she faces the first par 3.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5175/5540499330_b44604087c_z.jpg)
Visually, the hole suggests a play to the left side of the green, which will feed down to the right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5539918889_08b09162fc_z.jpg)
However, a pulled shot (or an unfortunate bounce off of a sprinkler head, as my partner experienced) may carom down the path through the gap seen far to the left, leading to a large number and possibly a lost ball.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5257/5539919111_ab02509b90_z.jpg)
While set back some distance from the green, these menacing bunkers should not be trifled with, even in a strong tail wind.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5015/5539919453_1e5ab79022_z.jpg)
The left-side view of the green suggests that recovery shots will be much easier from short and right…
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5539919721_595a7b0475_z.jpg)
… although even first-time players should know this after the sneak preview offered from the 4th tee.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5540500610_27dbbd58ff_z.jpg)
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What I like about this hole (besides the setting) is how it sets up to my eye. It just begs for a slung cut shot off the left bank and a roll into the green. But go short and you're hosed. Such a cool shot.
Going at the pin feels boring to me on this one.
Good recovery options down low and to the right of the hole.
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It is hard to go straight at the hole here, because you have to carry over the bunkers and you can't tell how far short of the flag you can safely land the ball. And with the hole playing downwind most of the time, just flying it pin high will put you well over the back.
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It is hard to go straight at the hole here, because you have to carry over the bunkers and you can't tell how far short of the flag you can safely land the ball. And with the hole playing downwind most of the time, just flying it pin high will put you well over the back.
It is "hard" to go straight at the hole because the bunker is so menacing.
The first time I played the hole, I did not know how much room I had over the bunker. So I chose what appeared to be the safe route: off the left slope. I pulled it hard left, and while the slope helped a little, it did not come back enough, leaving me in the rough off the green with a dead downhill chip. I made a great 4 from there.
Second time I took enough club to just clear the bunker and it rolled up nicely on the green. There is a lot more room over the bunker than it appears from the tee. So I think this hole works really well for a destination course like BD, where players don't see it very often. With regular play, I think the bunker would lose its "fear factor."
Question: Is there much work involved in creating that bunker"complex" or is it simply a matter of scraping the dune? (I just LOVE the look of it!)
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The back right pin here was one of the most fun on the course for putting off the green and having the ball run back to the pin, not just for shits and giggles, but as a preferable option to taking on the internal contours.
Jeez I can't wait to get back to Barnbougle!
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This was my favorite of the par 3s. I loved the look from the tee, and need to just carry the bunker if you wanted to go right at the green.
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6th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5296/5544168257_96694e7895_z.jpg)
The panoramic views offered by dunes adjacent to the 6th hole are sublime.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5255/5544745676_40d66d1b5a_z.jpg)
From the 6th tee, one may play safely through the gap to the left or over the conical sand pile on the right riding the prevailing breeze.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/5544745974_46f43e2a51_z.jpg)
Solid drives are rewarded not only with easier approach shots, but also with the opportunity to take the high road along the seaside ridge while others take the low road.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5544746224_71601e21d0_z.jpg)
A stroll down the path from ridge to fairway…
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5298/5544169527_dbd573c61a_z.jpg)
…will hopefully lead to your ball, well down the right side. The approach from here is much shorter and from the best angle.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/5544169767_0c024b6a05_z.jpg)
Unless the wind is helping strongly, an extra club should be considered for the uphill approach.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5544747472_d95a22df2e_z.jpg)
Looking back from long and left of the green, it is clear why approaches are more difficult from the left side of the fairway.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5176/5544170791_1b2193a326_z.jpg)
A favorite feature of Sir Kiser, this view of the day’s pin position is available from the 3rd tee (long and right of the 6th green).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5020/5544171133_e6ce87697e_z.jpg)
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A wonderful links hole. (Is this a hole that just routes itself or what!) What I really like about this is the feeling of doubt that you have on the tee about just how much room you have if you aim down the left side of the fairway. The large dune on the right is a problem, so left is better, but the first time you play it, you have to guess what is going on on the left side.
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A wonderful links hole. (Is this a hole that just routes itself or what!) What I really like about this is the feeling of doubt that you have on the tee about just how much room you have if you aim down the left side of the fairway. The large dune on the right is a problem, so left is better, but the first time you play it, you have to guess what is going on on the left side.
I think a stiff crossing breeze would be the most difficult, as one might have to aim outside of the corridor and hope the ball blew back to center.
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Overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5544187701_a72dedf854_z.jpg)
The 7th presents a small target from short range -- the prevailing wind comes into the player and from the left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5096/5544765102_da3c9bd524_z.jpg)
A miss into the left bunker is a veritable death sentence, as the resulting recovery shot is down-wind with the green sloping away. To the right, the turf is mown tightly and draws golf balls some distance from the pin.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/5544765532_ee21aa963f_z.jpg)
This local helps to maintain the marram grasses and locates lost balls ($25/pouch).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5053/5544766016_44ffaa3c5b_z.jpg)
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There's really something WRONG with Barnbougle Dunes:
It's way too sunny for links golf... ;D
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Like all the great Australian golf courses, Barnbougle Dunes has the obligatory short and nasty one-shotter, in this case, a hole I failed to par over 3 rounds. This is a great hole, short enough to be inclusive to all, offering a potential for birdie for everyone, if they can execute. While it may look easy on the scorecard, the obvious difficulty surrounding the green can play havoc with your swing. The combination here of short yardage and strong winds really accentuates the difficulty, as you want to keep the ball under the wind, which is much more difficult to do with a shorter iron in your hands.
TK
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A miss into the left bunker is a veritable death sentence, as the resulting recovery shot is down-wind with the green sloping away. (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/5544765532_ee21aa963f_z.jpg)
I have been patiently waiting to post this picture of Todd's (Andy Gray's friend) lie after what appeared to be a super tee shot. Alas, he came up two feet short and a hair left...
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/DSCN1188.jpg)
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Because of how the wind can really come into play, I think what the makes the hole is the bail out option short and right of the green.
It's one hell of a recovery if you're not on.
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a seriously great hole, if ever offering any advice for a first timer to Barny- "do not go left on 7" (quickly followed by "right on 12 is dead")
I think it gets scarier the more you play it - it is such a difficult hole to par - let alone birdie - and with just under 40 feet or 12 metres to land your tee shot, it is treachery at it's finest.
The left bunkers are not only very soft, and as Kyle mentioned, playing to a green sloping toward the right, but the face of the bunkers are sooo steep, it is a very difficult shot just to get it out - let alone contemplate and up & down.
- a fabulous reason to turn back around into the prevailing.
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I think it gets scarier the more you play it -
Agreed,
played with a first-timer Sun arvo of Boomerang, he casually put Wedge to about 15feet, wondered what all my fuss was about
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Short of the green on 7 is definitely the play if your opponent is in trouble or you are playing for a score but where would the fun be in that? On my first visit to Barnbougle I hit the green with a 5 iron in a gale but on this trip I hit the same shot every time - one that just hit the right edge of the green and bounded hard right 20 yards.
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2 comparison pics for the bunkers left of 7.
first is 2007 - the bunkers certainly appear much shallower and user friendly:
(http://gallery.me.com/brett65/100145/7th%20Barny_2007_900%20wide/web.jpg?ver=13008643690001)
and again in 2009 - this shot also may give some a perspective of how small the green surface appears from the tee:
(http://gallery.me.com/brett65/100145/October%206%202009%20100/web.jpg?ver=13008640830001)
I should have posted these two earlier, here are two shots taken late one May (Winter) afternoon, we had a swim a lunchtime...
(http://gallery.me.com/brett65/100145/The%20Walk_May%202009_4%20to%205/web.jpg?ver=13008649380001)
and:
(http://gallery.me.com/brett65/100145/May%20is%20beautiful_dead%20calm/web.jpg?ver=13008649300001)
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a seriously great hole, if ever offering any advice for a first timer to Barny- "do not go left on 7" (quickly followed by "left on 12 is dead")
You mean right on 12
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You know it's a scary target when they are talking about bail out on a shot of 140 yards.
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I think it gets scarier the more you play it -
Agreed,
played with a first-timer Sun arvo of Boomerang, he casually put Wedge to about 15feet, wondered what all my fuss was about
I was glad to be one of the blissfully ignorant. First try, I went 12 feet over the flag stick (hit the putt a bit too hard through the break).
The second try was right on line, but I didn't accelerate, so I barely reached the front edge, but again went right at the flag.
A yard left would have left me in Andy's sand-filled shoes.
I now regret passing on the chance to try out a few bunker shots.
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Thanks Matt
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You know it's a scary target when they are talking about bail out on a shot of 140 yards.
Absolutely - 3 times I played the hole and 3 times I erred on the side of caution and landed in the bail out area. That said - the next shot aint easy up and over the steep ridge to a narrow green where a putter is probably the preferred method.
It's a brilliant short hole - one of the best I've seen.
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You would certainly want to miss right, as the bunkers on the left have far too much sand in them.
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I'll echo everybody's comments and say this is the most treacherous short par 3 I've ever played. Left is absolute death - pick a number, any number and it may stretch to double digits. We played a gross tourney out there a few years back and my mate Pete took a 13 in the morning round, followed by a duece in the arvo!
That being said, right is no bargain either. Rolling off the green to the right is not so bad as the ball stays in touch with the green. With a 40 mph wind howling though my 9 iron did not have the benefit of rolling off the green but instead bounded off the mound quite forcefully and left me on the edge of thje haggis about 20 meters away. My ball was lying in hairy fescue growing straight into me, leaving a 20 meter bump and run into the narrowest part of the green, into that same 40mph breeze, and with the death bunker lying in wait. Naturally came up short and gladly took my 5.
If I was playing a gross tourney and had this hole to play down the stretch I would take a sand wedge and purposely lay up straight in front, then take my chances with a relatively easy up and down from there. This on a 110 meter hole!
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Scott C,
Your description of playing this devil of a hole would frighten the life out of most golfers.
There is a wee bit in your description that I do not understand. You say that your shot “........instead bounded off the mound quite forcefully and left me on the edge of the haggis about 20 meters away. My ball was lying in hairy fescue ......”.
Now I played this hole three times in The Boomerang and once with Mayhugh. Believe me if I had seen a “haggis” on this hole I surely would have mentioned it to Mayhugh as he has a proclivity for photographing all creatures, wild, natural and exotic, when he visits golf courses. Can you enlighten me as to what this haggis is all about as it is a golfing architecture description of which I am unfamiliar.
Should I have my sgian dubh handy next time I play the 7th!
Cheers Colin
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8th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5554486265_f88dfec25e_z.jpg)
The tee shot at the 8th hole will usually play with the wind.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5310/5554486519_b9d24f8c0c_z.jpg)
Ostensibly, the narrow upper fairway offers a slightly shorter path of advance.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5555072094_344a623612_z.jpg)
However, the lower fairway offers a much broader target, and one may bounce their tee shot down to the bottom for added distance. From below, the angle of approach is directly along the deepest axis of the green, for those able to reach in two.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5554486799_b77ce4144b_z.jpg)
For those laying back with their second shot, several options are available for accessing different pin positions. Hanging back on the right (as pictured) will yield a full wedge to front/left pins while playing to a shorter distance along the left side will set up a simple pitch to hole locations in the green’s latter half.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5061/5555072420_2ed3685f9b_z.jpg)
Looking back to the fairway from behind the pin, the uphill nature of the approach and the significant cambering of the fairway are quite apparent.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5306/5555072652_7482f78277_z.jpg)
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Once in the left bunker should be enough for anyone.
http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/barnbougle%20dunes/
Such a scary tee shot, especially with the wind.
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I think what surprised me on this one was I did not feel going the high road to the left gave that much of an advantage. You're liable to experience a rather tricky lie up there and the green doesn't open as much as one would think. Go slightly left or right of that high road and you're pretty much done.
I'll take my semi-blind shot into the green from the right fairway thank you...
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I have gone back and forth on my thoughts about this hole since returning from our trip. It is easily the hardest hole on the course and I bet it is on of the most demanding tee shots that Doak has ever built. The centerline bunker must be challenged if you have any hope of making a 4. It is an interesting design element: you have been given great width to work with from the tee up until the 8th tee, and now you are asked to choose between "two halves."
Although I am decent player, I just don't have the accuracy off of the tee to chose a side and hit it from that distance. (This type of tee shot would be tedious if repeated, but since it only once per round, I can't whine.) Rather than risk missing any shots in the marrum grass left or right, I chose the strategy of aiming right at the bunker under the theory that I never hit my target... I ended up in the bunker once, right once, and left once...so I played the hole from every angle!
IMO, right is far better. Yes, the shot to the green is blind, but all you have to focus on is carrying crest of the hill that is about 20 yards short of the green. And as Pat said, this is a nice angle that sets up well to my eye. I hit 5 wood that barely cleared the crest and it rolled up to the front of the green for an easy two-putt.
The time I went left was one of my longest drives of the weekend. But as I stood over the ball I thought: "what am I doing here?" First of all, it was an awkward angle to the green, it really sets up for a draw. Yes, I could see the green, but I could also see all the places I did not want to miss it. A miss left is gone in the marrum. A miss right will slide off the hill WAY right (from that angle.) I had the same 5 wood in my hand, but a totally different "focus" and proceeded to yank it low and left into the marrum grass, never to be seen again. I don't know what that says about my ability as a golfer...but it confirms that I have too many voices in my head...
I also thought the second shot layup area was rather small and univiting. The time I hit my drive right (230 yards left to the pin)I considered laying up but felt it was (a) too tight and (b) too far back, so that led me to the decision to go for the green.
And I will probably get ripped for saying this, but I find it interesting: If this was a par 5 on the card, as a golfer I would have no problems with any of the shots the architect is offering. But as a par 4, I found it really hard. Some say the number on the card should not matter, but it obviously does to a single digit handicap when he steps on the tee. What say you all?
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It is easily the hardest hole on the course
Making it hardly the easiest... ;) ???
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This is certainly a grunty hole but it generally plays downwind so you can open the hips a bit and havea crack. A good hard drive down the right side left me a simple 7 iron into a bit of a blind green. You can see the pin but are a bit unsure as to the depth of the green/pin from this angle. I have never played this hole from the upper left fairway so have no idea what it looks like from up there!
The first time I played this hole was into a very unusually stong easterly wind. I just aimed for that center slope of rough and lo-and-behold it landed just on the top slope and drifted to the right. I was hoping like heck that it would have found it's way down to the right fairway but the little bastard white ball hung in the rough in an impossible downward 60 degree slope. Hence I am not a big fan of these rough covered center sideways slopes. LF 9 has one too and one of my partners got impossibly stuck there as well.
A lot of my playing partners were hitting hybrids or more into this green and that is a pretty daunting task as I would hate to get caught up in the junk on the fronting upslope.
I can't help but think that a really neat and super long par 5 could have been built here as there is a good long walk fromk the 7th green to the 8th tee that could have easily added a few hundred yards. That way the player would have the choice of going upper or lower fairway on the second shot or how close to the upslope they wanted to get. This would be a virtually unreachable par 5 of 600 meters or more and the approach to the green just seems to present itself as par 5-ish to me.
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I took the left road twice and I am convinced it doesn't give you any benefit, unless you can fade it long and accurately and run down the slope past the centreline rough, which seems to offer a good extra bit of roll.
My issue with the shot from the left - I had 6i both times - is that if you land in the right half of the green, the ball wants to go right and roll off the green - the slope seems to be more useful from the right hand side, hitting into the hill.
I'm not sure it's a dud hole as some others seem to suggest, I just find it is completely out of character in challenge, options etc with the rest of the course, indeed with the 53 other Tom Doak holes I have played.
Unless strongly downwind, many golfers are likely to be too far from the green to have a reasonable chance of hitting and holding it, and so their only real option is to lay it up short of the hill and pitch up for their third. And if it is strongly downwind, holding the green - though easier from shorter range - becomes more difficult as the wind will make stopping the ball all the more difficult.
I can't recall another instance on one of the the Doak courses I have played where the shot is prescribed in that way.
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IMO I think the hole would play better if they maybe mowed or removed the rough to the right of the approach bunkers.
Even if one cant run a a low chasing shot up there - on such a long P4 the visual appeal of potentially being able to do so has merit IMO
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KP,
Mow the whole hill, I reckon. The bunkers then become a hazard for both the guy trying to fly it up and bounce onto the green from just over the bunkers and the guy who chooses to run it up the hill past the bunkers.
Does the rough between the left and right fairways add anything? If it were mowed there is still a penalty for the guy who tries to take the left-hand road and doesn't go enough to that side, as his ball will roll down to the right, leaving a tougher shot (much like on the 14th at St Andrews Beach).
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Okay, let's talk a bit about this hole. It's one of the ones that I would like to go back and work on someday, and perhaps I'll have that chance in the next couple of years in my visits to Melbourne. Understand, though, that with the course solidly ranked among the world's best and the tee sheet relatively busy, disruptive fine-tuning may not be high on the ownership's priority list, nor should it be.
To address the last question first, I never really thought of making the hole into a very long par-5, and I will look at that. I don't think it would work well because going back any further would make a very narrow corridor for the tee shot, and if most people are landing short of the central bunker, they won't get to where they can see around that bluff into the lay-up area for the second shot. But, I am not sure of the distances, and I will take a look at it that way.
The hole is listed as a par-4 (and a very tough one) because it's downwind 85% of the time, and because as Bill mentioned, the lay-up area actually discourages lay-ups by being so narrow.
The idea of the left-hand fairway was to make a shorter route for shorter hitters who needed to go that way to get home in two. I figured that longer hitters would prefer to go long and right, and that's fine, but the shorter hitter can't carry it over the knob in the middle and I didn't want him to have to take the long way around and make it a definite three-shotter. Apparently, you guys don't think much about people who hit it shorter than you do.
The suggestions to mow the bank up the approach in front of the green, or the side-slope between the two halves of fairway, are ridiculous because at present those areas are just way too steep to mow. I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision, but the awkward bit of rough between the two fairways is a problem. So, if I get my chance, I would likely re-shape some of that area and some of the upper fairway, to make it a bit more inviting for the short hitters and to reduce or eliminate the random penalty for players whose drives get hung up on the slope between the two tiers.
Thanks for all of your suggestions!
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Tom:
Apparently, you guys don't think much about people who hit it shorter than you do.
Much of reply #132 is about how the hole sets up for shorter hitters.
I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision
How often do you use this design feature? On the three courses of yours that I've played (BD, StAB and TRC), this is the only example I can think of and I can't recall seeing it in any pics of Ballyneal, Pac Dunes or Old Mac.
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the awkward bit of rough between the two fairways is a problem. So, if I get my chance, I would likely re-shape some of that area and some of the upper fairway, to make it a bit more inviting for the short hitters and to reduce or eliminate the random penalty for players whose drives get hung up on the slope between the two tiers.
Presuming the fairway area is reshaped and the inter-fairway rough eliminated, it would be fun to have an upper left shelf that becomes progressively harder to hold the farther one hits their tee shot. But in order for anyone to hinge their hopes of par or better on such a finely shaped drive, I think the green complex would require some subtle tweaking to make that angle of approach more desirable, not just shorter. In its present form, I believe most players would rather take a bit more club from below/right and hit into the slope of the green.
Just my amateurish 2 cents...
I'll be interested to see if any of the ideas you presented take shape.
Thanks again for your insights, Sir Doak.
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Okay, let's talk a bit about this hole. It's one of the ones that I would like to go back and work on someday, and perhaps I'll have that chance in the next couple of years in my visits to Melbourne.
To address the last question first, I never really thought of making the hole into a very long par-5, and I will look at that. I don't think it would work well because going back any further would make a very narrow corridor for the tee shot, and if most people are landing short of the central bunker, they won't get to where they can see around that bluff into the lay-up area for the second shot.
The idea of the left-hand fairway was to make a shorter route for shorter hitters who needed to go that way to get home in two. I figured that longer hitters would prefer to go long and right, and that's fine, but the shorter hitter can't carry it over the knob in the middle and I didn't want him to have to take the long way around and make it a definite three-shotter.
I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision, but the awkward bit of rough between the two fairways is a problem. So, if I get my chance, I would likely re-shape some of that area and some of the upper fairway, to make it a bit more inviting for the short hitters and to reduce or eliminate the random penalty for players whose drives get hung up on the slope between the two tiers.
Thanks for all of your suggestions!
Tom
thanks for the response. Richard Sattler commented at the dinner that you might revisit the eigth.
As a short hitter, I managed to hit #8 once, downwind, by using the lhs fairway. A short lay-up down the rhs every other time, with an occasional one stuck on the hill in between (not that big an issue if you are laying up).
I think the feature that gets up a few peoples nose is the sole hairy pimple on the lhs, which can cause significant penalty for a longer lhs drive of the wrong length. Perhaps these people should play right. Perhaps the hair could be shaved.
Reagarding the par 5, we discussed that option in my playing groups, but the dunes are incredibly close and narrow as you say above). My personal opinion is that a longer hole would make the engagement with the hill and the greensite more difficult to achieve, let alone finding a corridor to play a longer par 5 through the dunes. I fear a par 5 for many would become a dwon wind flattish drive, a blast past the bluff or down the right and a blind third from the lay-up zone. Doesn't sound as engaging as the current hole to me.
One last point. In my view, the approach up to #8 green has a touch of the the style of Merion East #16 quarry to it, but without the occasional sapling and bush, and with a little more inclination. Looked fine to me.
James B
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Tom:
Apparently, you guys don't think much about people who hit it shorter than you do.
Much of reply #132 is about how the hole sets up for shorter hitters.
I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision
How often do you use this design feature? On the three courses of yours that I've played (BD, StAB and TRC), this is the only example I can think of and I can't recall seeing it in any pics of Ballyneal, Pac Dunes or Old Mac.
Scott:
I don't do that very often, but one good example you forgot is the 7th hole at Pacific Dunes, a personal favorite of mine. The 7th at Old Macdonald is essentially an interrupted fairway, too.
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Maybe we didn't have enough wind helping, or maybe I was shorter than usual for me, but my tee shots on the hole left from 170 - 190 meters from the green (190 - 210 yards). Even with wind helping, that approach shot uphill with all the trouble around meant that the smarter shot for me was a layup second - even in a match. After the first round, I wasn't even tempted to hit my second at the green, and that made the hole somewhat uninteresting to me. That's the only hole on the course I could say that about.
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John,
The wind was both light and a little more across L-R than I believe the prevailing wind is.
I have never used the left hand fairway and am a shorter hitter. The main reason is that as a lefty with a draw come hook I can't bring myself to aim out into the rough and hope I don't hit a straight one.
Tom,
Would another consideration be to remove some of the marram from the left of the approach to the green (from the ridge to the green around the bunker). This would only be helpful for those coming in from the left fairway. Although the approach would still appear daunting the extra room would entice more players into choosing that line and bringing the left hand bunker more into play and less divots in the bailout area. On the first play I could imagine many players standing on the green thinking why they had chosen to go right when there was all that room for the approach on the left..
This wouldn't need any widening of the driving areas merely the softening of the slope between the fairways you favour. I personally like the split fairway. The drive reminds me a little of 17 at Brora every time I play it. So if only for that it's a hole I like.
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9th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5028/5557858858_6e7da66561_z.jpg)
The closing tee shot on the front nine is visually imposing from the back tees, due to a small shoulder from the right hand dune, but it widens considerably in the landing area. I was told by a trusted, experienced confidant that the hole is best when played from the tees farther to port as a left-turning dogleg.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5557859100_3d8f04f30e_z.jpg)
Riding the prevailing wind, a tee shot that passes over the lowest part of the fairway at left center and runs to the bottom of the hill is ideal.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5557859282_2fbbc7ef26_z.jpg)
Once over the small ridge, the fairway feeds through a large depression before climbing to the green. The ground feeds heavily from left to right as it runs up to the putting surface.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5025/5557859444_0cd09967ca_z.jpg)
The right edge of the playing corridor lends an unfavorable, semi-blind approach angle over sand pits.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5108/5557274879_ffcb739ece_z.jpg)
Looking back past Pup and Sir Matthew, it is clear that approaches should favor the left edge of the green, although anything too far left or long will also feed away from the flag.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5226/5557275131_71b0a0de2b_z.jpg)
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Has anyone got a picture of the approach shot from back before they expanded the clubhouse?
That was one of my favorite places on the course ... the approach looked over the green and right down the beach on 18. The initial plan for the clubhouse was a small building with a big deck, and the building was pretty well hidden by a couple of little trees at the back right of the green. But when the clubhouse was expanded, the view was eliminated.
I had wanted to use that set-up for a par-3 hole from the landing area to the green, but eventually decided that #8 green site was too good to pass up, so then #9 couldn't be a par-3.
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Has anyone got a picture of the approach shot from back before they expanded the clubhouse?
That was one of my favorite places on the course ... the approach looked over the green and right down the beach on 18. The initial plan for the clubhouse was a small building with a big deck, and the building was pretty well hidden by a couple of little trees at the back right of the green. But when the clubhouse was expanded, the view was eliminated.
I had wanted to use that set-up for a par-3 hole from the landing area to the green, but eventually decided that #8 green site was too good to pass up, so then #9 couldn't be a par-3.
Surely you must know someone at RGD that has a photo or two... ;D
I believe Dave Elvins has a few shots of #9 from the early days, but his archive is currently in the wrong hemisphere...
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The ninth is a good place to bring up another BD feature which hasn't been discussed. Off the back of the 8th green there is a small flat area that could serve as a tee box for 9, and create the dogleg feature mentioned above. This is similar to the multitude of teeing areas that can be found around the greens at Ballyneal for the next hole (the back of the 12th green going to 13 comes to mind). Anyone notice any other "alternate" tee spots at BD?
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The ninth is a good place to bring up another BD feature which hasn't been discussed. Off the back of the 8th green there is a small flat area that could serve as a tee box for 9, and create the dogleg feature mentioned above. This is similar to the multitude of teeing areas that can be found around the greens at Ballyneal for the next hole (the back of the 12th green going to 13 comes to mind). Anyone notice any other "alternate" tee spots at BD?
Sven:
I don't remember any other such spots at Barnbougle. We talked about doing that for a low-left tee at #16, off of #15 green, but I think we wound up just building a separate tee instead. I thought about doing it pretty close off #14 green for #15, but didn't. And I thought about having a back tee on #12 over to the left of #11 green, but was worried that too many people would wind up firing it back down #11 fairway from there.
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Notice it? The Aussies made me play from there! ;D
It is a cool angle. TD, you better go find it!
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The ninth is a good place to bring up another BD feature which hasn't been discussed. Off the back of the 8th green there is a small flat area that could serve as a tee box for 9, and create the dogleg feature mentioned above. This is similar to the multitude of teeing areas that can be found around the greens at Ballyneal for the next hole (the back of the 12th green going to 13 comes to mind). Anyone notice any other "alternate" tee spots at BD?
Sven, that is Mike Keiser's job at Lost Farm :)
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Has anyone got a picture of the approach shot from back before they expanded the clubhouse?
I think I've got a shot from the 9th fairway looking out towards the beach, cubhouse site and back 9,
from October 2004. Before the Clubhouse was even built. I'll hunt around for it Tom.
MM
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Tom, this may not be quite the angle that you mean, but heres how it looked before the clubhouse was built in 2003 pre-opening
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/ozgolfpics/DSC01955.jpg)
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Shane:
Thanks for that. Amazingly, you could see a lot of that background from 175 yards out, before the clubhouse was built ... and if you go over to the very left edge of the fairway in the landing area, you can sort of still see it around the side of the clubhouse, but not right behind the green as designed.
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Even after the clubhouse was built, but before extension, this was one of my favorite approach shots on the course, it is a great pity it was put where it was, without consideration for it's impact on the golf course.
It was always such an interesting view of the estuary, wind blown tidal dunes and marram and quite a contrast to the view from 4-5 walk. It now reminds you that you indeed back in civilization with satellite dishes and air conditioning, which is a pity :(
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The suggestions to mow the bank up the approach in front of the green, or the side-slope between the two halves of fairway, are ridiculous because at present those areas are just way too steep to mow. I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision..
Tom
Sorry to backup a bit - why so ? I've seen mowers on ropes used to maintain slopes at NGLA why not Barnbougle ? Even if it's not mowed completely it could be maintained somewhat better than in currently is.
Back to the present hole - have you ever thought the shelf is a bit too narrow on the neck into the left hand side of the green on #9 ? The runoff is quite severe and I saw plenty of balls disappear into the marram in the three days I was there particularly considering the wind.
I would have thought one could have developed a bowl type area to collect balls moreso and may have been a more considered approach given the bunkers right and angle of the green ?
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Kevin:
That bank to the left of #9 required some of the biggest earthwork we did at Barnbougle. It was very big and steep originally, and Eric pushed dirt down into the bottom short of the green for several days to get what we got. I guess we could have done more, but the few times I have played it, it always seemed to work as intended.
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Found a picture that makes it clear, from Matthew Delahunty's post on another thread. [Thanks, Matthew.]
Everything to the left of the dune behind the flag is part of the clubhouse extension, but the view to the left gives you a pretty good idea of what is being blocked out.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/mrdela/Tasmania%20Trip%202011/IMG_0788.jpg)
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10th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5560076316_da767e3a34_z.jpg)
The closing nine holes bring golfers into a wider playing field relative to the intimate valleys that define most of the opening nine.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5142/5560081446_9cc649b260_z.jpg)
Continuing with the prevailing wind, the tenth climbs gently to a generously-proportioned green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5094/5560076482_2ea8f290c8_z.jpg)
The shortest line of attack near the left bunkers will also yield the best angle for approaching the green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5176/5559498773_12de1f9023_z.jpg)
The margin between “position A” and a 1-stroke penalty is measured in yards.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5185/5560076874_291041b62a_z.jpg)
Longer hitters can easily fly the fairway bunkers and face this short but semi-blind approach.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5560077026_17b520bace_z.jpg)
Viewed from the 18th hole (left), the rising slope and bunkers guarding the front corners of the 10th green are rather imposing.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5560077180_893fecd155_z.jpg)
Viewed from the right, the confounding contours of the 10th green are sure to inspire the adventurous golfer.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5107/5559499553_a6ee18dfea_z.jpg)
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11th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5172/5560091378_90b8e468f6_z.jpg)
Playing down wind, the 11th hole rewards tee shots hoisted high to the fairway’s left center.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5181/5560091544_cf79575549_z.jpg)
The general slope of the fairway is from left-to-right, so there is usually no need to challenge the short right bunkers in typical wind conditions. The bunkers along the left usually extract a full-shot penalty.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5178/5559513685_a061772465_z.jpg)
From the landing zone, the fairway dives down before climbing to another hilltop green site.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5137/5560091778_5a38048d89_z.jpg)
A careless second shot down the right leaves this daunting third.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5058/5560091922_008af30f08_z.jpg)
Anyone that manages to reach the green in two will have an excellent chance of converting on one of the course’s more benign greens.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5309/5559514129_b15329d985_z.jpg)
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I really liked this hole - at least when I played it down a very significant wind.
I think the ridge at the edge of the green as well as the danger from the fairway bunkers make this an interesting hole both on the tee shot and for the layup because there is a big advantage to approaching from the right in order to avoid the need to stop the ball just over the sharp ridge on the left side of the green.
I know others have found the hole rather plain but to me it is close to ideal - plenty of room to play safe but at a cost for doing so.
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If you play the ball left to right, this is one hole that you will love. Talk about fitting your eyes. After a good drive, I was set up perfectly for a 3-wood fade, which I hit well and left myself a simple 25 foot uphill eagle putt. Since I was giving a shot to my Australian opponent and he had a 15 for birdie, I boldly tried to sink my eagle... Funny thing about uphill putts, you often have downhill comebackers...Nice par, Bill. (This 3-putt bothered me the rest of my trip until I returned to the US and read the discussion between Kyle and Tom Doak about the varying greenspeeds due to wind-blown sand and areas that are protected from the wind, and how water collects better in some spots. That is when I realized it was not my fault...)
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Does the 10th hole remind anyone else of the 10th at Brora, or is it just me?
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Scott:
I actually am drawing a blank re: the 10th at Brora. I can't believe that it is much like the hole at Barnbougle since I didn't notice. I always thought of our 10th green as being a little bit like the 2nd at Machrihanish, though not as severe!
Bill B:
In my two rounds at Barnbougle in December, I was in the perfect place to hit the big fade 3-wood with my trusty old persimmon club. The first time, I knocked it about 15 feet from the hole. The second, I cut it just a hair more, and thought it was even better ... and I never found the ball! It must have gotten just off the green to the right and down into an animal hole or something. The grass wasn't really that thick, I could not believe I lost it when I thought I'd have an eagle putt.
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Does the 10th hole remind anyone else of the 10th at Brora, or is it just me?
Scott
It actually reminds me more of the 7th at Old Macdonald only it is a Par 4. After the drive it is pretty similar (without the gorse of course)
From the BD website:
"This par four is more about the second shot than the first. A large fairway with more room to the right, your best aiming point from the tee is the gorse to the right of the green complex. Your second shot here needs to take into account the distance, wind and elevation change. Be sure to take enough club to get you all the way up to the green."
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#11 may be a relatively benign green once you are on it. Just try missing the green on the left and look at the chip/pitch that is left. Steeply up a bank then down hill! It really makes play down the rhs the only option for a birdie.
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12th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5270/5559526187_c6c0b49418_z.jpg)
Turning into the predominant airstream at the 12th, golfers are confronted with the third of four stellar, short par 4s.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5019/5560104280_b7b1126690_z.jpg)
The aggressive line is right at the heart of the reachable green (over the center bunker), with the required carry lessening as one aims farther to the left. Anything pulled left of frame may end up in the 11th fairway and leave a blind short iron in. Right is dead.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5186/5560104402_e9685f2081_z.jpg)
After a conservative drive, the second short must contend with the subtle yet vexing slopes defending the green’s edges. This day’s pin sits playfully in a small depression more easily accessed by more aggressive lines.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5559526729_a90412327d_z.jpg)
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That pin!
crisp sand-wedge from 50 metres, lands just a metre or so long, and it is long gone.
In the afternoon, a putter from 45 metres, to about 8 feet.
Great fun both times.
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One of my favorite holes on this course. Just a damn good short par 4 that absolutely tempts you because of the green's placement.
The hole demands respect with what lies short and to the right. It's a Vijay hole if I ever saw one.
But you don't need driver here. 3W will get you there as I found out by accident. The recovery can be quite brutal, but you don't have to go for that sucker pin to the right side of the green.
This hole makes me think "get your par and be happy". At worst take your meds with a bogey and move on. Card wrecker for sure if you're not careful.
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My favourite hole at Barnbougle and my fave short 4 in Oz. I start looking forward to playing this hole about a fortnight before I get to Bridport.
If you tire of playing approach shots to this green you're tired of golf. Past the green and slightly left is a good place to approach the green if you're playing with a non-prevailing breeze.
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My favourite hole at Barnbougle and my fave short 4 in Oz. I start looking forward to playing this hole about a fortnight before I get to Bridport.
This is quite understandable and probably shared by other frequenters of Barnbougle. I wonder if it would be so loved if it were deemed a par "3."
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Although it doesn't look like it, the right side bunker is absolutely cavernous and rivals the bunker on the 4th for scariest place to end up on the course. I'd say the one at the 12th is tougher, as the face is steeper and any shot out of the sand into that tiny green is sure to cause some puckering.
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12 is a great hole - one of the better short P4's in Australia. It really tempts one to pull driver - really tempts.
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If you tire of playing approach shots to this green you're tired of golf.
Terry Thornton - our very own Samuel Johnson!
Kyle: The second of three great short par fours? I thought it was the third great short par four we've encountered by this point in the round?
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This green was not intended to be quite as small as it turned out. The original version was shaped on my first visit during construction, but after some severe winds in October, by the time I got back, there was nothing left of it -- about three feet of sand was blown completely away! We could barely scrape up enough sand from the fairway again to build what we did, but we made sure we got irrigation on it right away after that.
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Interesting construction anecdote Tom, would you have preferred the larger green?
I wondered as soon as I read this that it reminds of old classic greens that would "never be built" today, that they turn out to be the most admired.(because the green is smaller than originally intended)
I have also wondered if design influenced by construction by the elements, in particular wind, yields interesting results - once again seem to be most admired?
It is a great hole, and as Terry noted, all I aim to do is get it onto the fairway within 60m so as I get to play or be challenged by the multitude of approach shots.
And standing on this green, with two outstanding outlooks- a view of the next hole is exciting, and the view back down 17 with the Marram waving in the wind is truly memorable.
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This is a great short hole. I have to admit that the first time I played it I had honors and was looking to play to the fairway on the right! if I was playing alone I would have. When my opponent politely pointed me in the right direction, I just could not "see" the shot that is required. It is so hard to know how much room you really have on the left, the longer you hit it, the less you have. I tried to play a safe 3-wood and blocked it into the mass of marrum short right... So what I really like about this hole is that both the safe play and the aggressive play require good shots to avoid real trouble. And it is such an unusaul looking tee shot that makes the golfer uncomfortable. Not fearful, just uncomfortable.
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If you tire of playing approach shots to this green you're tired of golf.
Terry Thornton - our very own Samuel Johnson!
Kyle: The second of three great short par fours? I thought it was the third great short par four we've encountered by this point in the round?
Quite right. I stand corrected.
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In my two rounds at Barnbougle in December, I was in the perfect place to hit the big fade 3-wood with my trusty old persimmon club. The first time, I knocked it about 15 feet from the hole. The second, I cut it just a hair more, and thought it was even better ... and I never found the ball! It must have gotten just off the green to the right and down into an animal hole or something. The grass wasn't really that thick, I could not believe I lost it when I thought I'd have an eagle putt.
Tom,
On one occasion whilst playing the 11th, one of our four "lost" a cleanly hit drive to the middle of the fairway - clearly observed by all in the group. After the trip I was reading the excellent Barnbougle Dunes story "the beginnings". In the last paragraph on pg 19 the following is written which may offer some explanation for the loss of apparently perfectly hit shots on this hole in particular.
"While working alongside the eleventh hole, countless balls were hit in the direction of the fairway, only to be quickly confiscated by neighbouring crows. If your tee shot on the eleventh should meet the same fate, follow the birds to their hiding place and you are sure to discover a stash of hundreds of shiney Titleists"
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13th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5560125380_065069b499_z.jpg)
The first par 3 of the back side plays downhill with the prevailing breeze and allows for shots that land short and run onto the green. My first attempt of this shot hit the flag stick before coming to rest 6 inches past the hole. My second attempt, just a yard left of my first, fed more than 40 feet away from the hole.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5266/5559547347_b7f2dc6f41_z.jpg)
From ground level, the overall back-to-front slope of the green is apparent.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5263/5560125686_d4143b85fd_z.jpg)
Upon closer inspection, one can perceive the enthralling/harrowing slopes set to challenge their flat stick aptitude. As relayed to our pantheon by the owner, Tom Doak’s inspiration for this putting surface was the notorious (NLE) MacKenzie green at Sitwell Park.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5559547721_40e39cd71b_z.jpg)
Even after reaching the green, it’s a steep hike to this devilish back pin position (note where balls tend to collect low and left).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5179/5559547875_24761e316b_z.jpg)
Looking across the green from the right side, one can see several options for accessing the various hole location possibilities.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5101/5559548009_6907fc90f4_z.jpg)
Do not miss long!!!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5560126498_1b2b1f51b1_z.jpg)
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Awesome Pics Kyle.
I love this green.
Everytime I've played barny we always seem to spend extra time on this green messing around.
I like the many different pin positions here and with the use of the surrounding slopes this can be a very exciting hole to watch.
I wonder if anyone dislikes this green and why?
I am a massive fan.
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All I will say is it was a fun putt from the front of the green to the back rightish area where the pin was placed on that Friday morning.
Normally I'm not a huge fan of downhill par 3's, but without question this one's pretty cool.
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(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhyumsV5cd1qhbcvno1_400.jpg)
That pretty much sums this hole up for me!
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Really Scott?
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Yeah, loved it. Looking at pics before the trip, it's one green I wondered if I might find it a bit over the top, but I thought it was genius.
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OK, thought the face meant you did not like it. If you had two or more like this, it would be over the top. But BD may be the only place that TD gets to build one like this. Plus, it is a McKenzie template..so you have to love it!
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Sorry, that pic is a screen grab from the (perhaps not as universally well-known as I thought) Lonely Island song called Jizz In My Pants! So yeah, I loved it.
I agree completely that there is only room for one green like that on a course, just like there can be only one Alpha Male in a tribe!
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We played it with a back pin, and I accidently overclubbed, hung it right, and then shut my mouth as the ball rolled way right up the hill, then back towards the pin, broke left just inside the edge of the back bunker... disappeared for a while on the back right tier, then reappeared on the crest of the huge swale, and headed for the hole, missing the cup by inches! My playing partners were yelling and screaming! On the replay, I asked my partner what he was hitting, told him to add one and aim way right...he doubted me but I insisted. Exact same thing happened!
A green that reminds you that golf is a game.
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guys, I also love this green for not only the fascinating putts away from the 'obvious' target line, but also the number of different shots you can play and can be played by your fourball.
BUT
I would be interested to hear a little more from the DG about WHY you can only have one green of this type in 18 holes - Sitwell's was the Home hole, why coulnd't there be four greens in this style (but different) scattered throughout the routing?
I would have thought that the group here would agree that there is more than one at Ballyneal?
To me the important requirement for this type of green, is that there are smaller zones within the larger green total, at least after one or two plays, the golfer on the tee can then make a decision on what shot type to select to give the best opportunity to get closest to this pin.
for this green in particular, if the pin is either back right or back centre, I am generally quite confident that from almost anywhere on the putting surface, a two putt is easily achievable.
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First of all, the DG needs to know that Brett is one crazy Australian that thinks he can find alternative routes to almost any pin if there is enough slope for him to work with...I watched him shoot away from the pin several times at Lost Farm and laughed when the ball finally started heading back to the cup like he planned...So while I do not doubt Brett can two putt from anywhere, I sure would struggle on many long putts from the "wrong" section.
But Brett, the mounds that define the segments on this green are SO severe. I bet a significant % of non CGA geeks think this green is goofy. It is so unusual, I just don't think the golfing public would accept 4 of these... Doak certainly is known for tremendous movement on the greens, but this has to be at the top of his "wild" list (for lack of a better word.)
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I would be interested to hear a little more from the DG about WHY you can only have one green of this type in 18 holes -
Brett,
There are four iterations of this hole at B Dunes. The second is like a cut-off version of it, and 10 and 17 have so many bumps in the putting surface they are a scaled down version of it.
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Mark - I agree, 5 has some flavour as well, and it is fun to watch putts trying to get over back and left ridges on 15 also.
- So why do people say glad "there is only one green like this" - "you can only have one green like this on a course"
?
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Mark - I agree, 5 has some flavour as well, and it is fun to watch putts trying to get over back and left ridges on 15 also.
- So why do people say glad "there is only one green like this" - "you can only have one green like this on a course"
?
Brett,
Simple variety, and variety of demand.
Ballyneal would be an interesting creature to have a look at - If all - most? - of the greens have so many rolling contours, wouldn't that get a little tired?
As much as I defend the 3rd and 9th greens at St Andrews Beach, one of each of them is enough. It's as much fun trying to conquer greens like the 4th, 5th or 8th there, or the 3rd and 6th at B Dunes.
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There have to be people on this board who don't like that green because it is too quirky and sometimes leaves you with an impossible shot. Speak up, men. I know that Mike Keiser doesn't like it much; you can take his side in our debate.
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There have to be people on this board who don't like that green because it is too quirky and sometimes leaves you with an impossible shot. Speak up, men. I know that Mike Keiser doesn't like it much; you can take his side in our debate.
Funny statement from a guy who has said in the past that there's always a way to get the ball to the hole on that green. Or am I confusing your comments on this hole with those you made about the 4th at Lost Dunes.
Count me on the "love" side. The back ledge pin placement is brilliant, as was the middle right pin on Sunday. Any hole that asks for you to use your imagination is a winner. I would imagine a front pin when its blowing down wind would be a tough play, most likely leaving a devilish slider from the back of the green.
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Mark - I agree, 5 has some flavour as well, and it is fun to watch putts trying to get over back and left ridges on 15 also.
- So why do people say glad "there is only one green like this" - "you can only have one green like this on a course"
?
Brett,
Simple variety, and variety of demand.
Ballyneal would be an interesting creature to have a look at - If all - most? - of the greens have so many rolling contours, wouldn't that get a little tired?
As much as I defend the 3rd and 9th greens at St Andrews Beach, one of each of them is enough. It's as much fun trying to conquer greens like the 4th, 5th or 8th there, or the 3rd and 6th at B Dunes.
Ballyneal has a handful of "knarly" greens.
The 6th is small and approached from a longs ways out, yet still features some big internal undulations and falls away drastically at the front and flanks.
The 7th, with its famous “E” shape, is sloped considerably from left to right (spine to fingers), with the rear finger much higher than the front.
The 8th is also tiered and has a hump that must be traversed between the short left and long right sections. Anything off line can easily feed off of the green.
The 12th is split into four sections, each of which gathers shot to the respective hole locations, if one makes a decent attempt. Poor attempts will often find the player putting again from nearly as far as their first putt.
Finally, the 15th green is cambered heavily from right to left, with lots of internal ripples.
Barnbougle’s greens are more “tame” overall, but an excellent balance of challenge and forgiveness can be found on both courses.
For the record, Ballyneal is still my favorite course, and Barnbougle Dunes is nearly as good.
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14th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5185/5559564657_1ccfb356d2_z.jpg)
A reachable par 5 with wind, the 14th takes golfers to the most easterly point on the golf course. The diagonal carry from the tee is longest down the starboard side.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5559564933_810ca73a23_z.jpg)
Long drives can run past the foursome seen ahead and be caught up on the rough-covered mound beyond...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5223/5559565119_256dbb7534_z.jpg)
...while bold drives down the right side will open up the green for a long approach attempt.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5177/5559565321_c38882e7d7_z.jpg)
The inland side of the 14th hole hosts this lovely and distinctly Tasmanian lagoon.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5178/5559565683_dfa30e94f3_z.jpg)
Players that cannot reach the green in two must be careful not to put their second shot into the marram grasses along the left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5104/5559565997_6e1b24e983_z.jpg)
The spacious green is open to running shots.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5259/5559566315_fd4f6c9223_z.jpg)
After putting out, take a minute to peer across the estuary at Lost Farm’s 5th green. This would be a good place to spend an hour or two with an easel and some oil paints, for those so inclined.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5138/5559566655_d7f70c7989_z.jpg)
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This hole always takes a beating in people's reports on the course, but I have always really liked the tee shot. It tempts you to drive too far to the right ... if you choose the line where you just barely make the carry, you may well roll out of the fairway to the right. And if you play safely to the left, you may well go through the fairway into the bunker or other troubles on the far side. But if you pull it off, you have a chance to knock it on in two. I think I hit a 7-iron into the green on my last try with the typical westerly wind at our backs.
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Sitting, as we speak, in the Lost Farms restaurant looking out over a setting sun on this wonderful complex. Played Dunes today and tip my hat (deeply) to Tom and clan for a complete grand slam. Enjoyed it even more over the last time I was here 4 years ago.
Lost Farms tomorrow and the day after.
Not sure of my exect geography but a question for all. Dig a hole from Bandon Dunes Oregon through the center of the earth and out the other side, what do you have?? Bandon Dunes, Tasmania!
Barnbougle is becoming more and more like Bandon. That may change greatly if Richard S. decides to let Greg or Jack build the third course here on the exposed sand bluff. I hope Keiser talks Richard into a more thoughtful designer (Weiskopf? Ogilvy/Clayton? Urbina?). How about the first Doak/Coore collorborative effort. Richard just laughs when I press him.
All in the treehouse should try to get here. It may well best most everything on our planet including the greats in Ireland and Scotland.
JC
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Tom,
Now you tell us! ??? When I played it last year with a howling tail wind, I took the tiger line down the right only to find the ball in the scruff right with some really nice little trees around. Those bunkers sure seemed to be calling out, saying: hit it over here and challenge me, challenge me and you'll be rewarded. Sadly it was a siren song. The green was well within reach, if I'd had a lie and a swing. Nice subtlety.
This hole always takes a beating in people's reports on the course, but I have always really liked the tee shot. It tempts you to drive too far to the right ... if you choose the line where you just barely make the carry, you may well roll out of the fairway to the right. And if you play safely to the left, you may well go through the fairway into the bunker or other troubles on the far side. But if you pull it off, you have a chance to knock it on in two. I think I hit a 7-iron into the green on my last try with the typical westerly wind at our backs.
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Thought off the tee it setup pretty well to the eye. Both for the immediate ridge of bunkers and then into the green for the approach. Pretty cool. I liked how the hole turns and then comes back up. Feels a little double dog. Just good topography here. Liked the approach too eventhough I didn't do too well on this one.
The driver has to be dead on here, and if you're not feeling it ... much better to go 3W given the risks of an off driver. Unfortunately, in my book going 3W off the tee on a par 5 just feels lame. So although it tempts ... it can be punishing even if you don't take the aggressive line. Personally, I would have liked to have seen a little more of an opening to the left fairway for those not inclined to challenge but would still like to use driver. I think if you try to be safe to the left with driver ... you're still liable to get into deep doodoo. At least that's what I observed from several players during our 3 rounds.
You also get a good look at the 15th's landing areas about 1/2 of the way down the fairway, which gives you an opportunity to see what the blind approach from the left will look like.
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I saw plenty of tee shots here wind up in the exposed sand dune on the left, about 30 metres past the bunker, and of those balls I don't remember too many making par.
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15th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5582874664_3c171836d5_z.jpg)
Yet another fantabulous short two-shotter, the 15th brings golfers along the estuary towards Anderson bay.
From the tee, players must choose to carry, skirt or stay short of the central fairway bunker. The safest play is short and left of this sand pit.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5582874978_170409276e_z.jpg)
Few pars are made from the confines of the sandy, central coffin.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5582875440_0599976234_z.jpg)
Bunkers right of the green and a slope guarding the left side will complicate the approach from those that lay up short and left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5181/5582875758_10c1cc526d_z.jpg)
Long, true drives will finish very close to the flag with the easiest line of approach, unless the ground contours provide an unfriendly bounce.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5298/5582290821_8ba6aa7c15_z.jpg)
Those who miss right of the green may be left of the surface after their next shot, assuming they can find their respective balls.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5058/5582876380_8d8979d5cc_z.jpg)
Although the 15th green is rather diminutive, two putts are hardly assured.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5301/5582876956_1c3e2d2860_z.jpg)
Looking back as dusk approaches, one can visualize the highly influential fairway undulations.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5265/5582292181_7c8f2f5d99_z.jpg)
In the middle of the day, the furrows are less-easily distinguished, but the scene is just as majestic.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5096/5582877942_acc7e8f858_z.jpg)
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Looking across the green from the right side, one can see several options for accessing the various hole location possibilities.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5101/5559548009_6907fc90f4_z.jpg)
I had one of my most exhilarating 2-putts here, back right (in the foreground) of the above picture to the little bowl just left of the bunker. I played it just left of where the pin is shown in the picture. The slope took much more out of the putt than anticipated, and it looked bleak, but it just managed to catch a slope, and after a hard right it looked much more promising. It caught one final hump and ended up within a foot of the hole. The best part, I was at the hole when it finished rolling.
I would love to have a green like this in my backyard, it would be endless fun.
TK
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My absolute favorite hole on the course for a number of reasons. Aesthetically, it's just a gorgeous spot with the entire course laid out in front of you and the picturesque tidal river and dilapidated dock sitting right there. It used to be that you'd gaze across and wonder what sort of great course could be built there and now thankfully we have LF!
Then you're confronted with a real choice as to how to attack the hole. If you take drive you'd better be accurate as there's not a lot of room to the right of that bunker. If you layup you'd better place it correctly or else you can't see the green, but a well placed hybrid just short and left of that bunker gives a perfect glimpse of the green.
The thing I personally enjoy is that it does not kill my occasional rope hook on the few stabs I've had at going for it. A couple of times I ended up way over on the 14th rough (even the 14th fairway once!) with a completely blind wedge over the big dune. I'm probably the only one that's utilized the lone pine tree sitting to the right and above the green on the dune but it's perfectly placed to guide a wedge shot from the 14th fairway. All you need to do is guess the distance as you really are completely bewildered as to distance from there.
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Another super hole, the challenge for the higher 'road' on the right, is that with the prevailing, any shot that has a hint of fade, increases the risk into the dead marram on the right. Certainly after the lay up, the shot of a 7 or 6 iron to a back pin or back right pin is one of my favourites on the course, the lay up is to about the 100m mark to the front of the green, plus 25-35 to the back flags, uphill, often into the wind later in the day - magic.
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A perfect links hole. Kyle, your photos are fabulous. If anyone is on the fence about traveling to Tasmania, this ought to close the deal!
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I am, with some consideration, peer pressure and photographic reflection, prepared to admit I may have missed the boat on 15 when I listed it among the lesser holes on the course immediately after the Boomerang.
As it happens, my old man found out on the weekend that he has bagged a start in this year's Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race and I have convinced my wife, mum and sisters that we should go down to welcome him in at the finish line - so I'm headed back to Tassie between Christmas and New Year and you better believe I'll be fitting in a day or two at Barny!!
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I am, with some consideration, peer pressure and photographic reflection, prepared to admit I may have missed the boat on 15 when I listed it among the lesser holes on the course immediately after the Boomerang.
:)
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Ya, liked this one a lot. Right up there with the 7th and 12th for me on the barometer. Liked that little pot bunker to make you think a little more about what to do. The daring shot to the right plateau feels like a just reward. Play safe and you're blind. Seems reasonable, if you refuse the challenge. Kick ass green and surrounds. No question. Gonna remember this one for a while.
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The 15th reminded me a bit of the 5th at Crystal Downs. I love the way the ridge or division between upper and lower fairways complicates the tee shot and that there does not seem to be a clear way to play the hole.
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I am, with some consideration, peer pressure and photographic reflection, prepared to admit I may have missed the boat on 15 when I listed it among the lesser holes on the course immediately after the Boomerang.
I just needed some consideration. I also admit it!
for Dave Elvins ..... :)
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16th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5229/5582320075_353de836ff_z.jpg)
Turning west into the prevailing wind for the run home, the 16th is a par 3 that is played either slightly or heavily downhill, depending on the choice of teeing ground.
From the lower tees, the left bunker appears to be pressed rights up against the green. In fact, a weak pull will often carry the sand and kick forward to putter-friendly pastures.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5582320419_f59693dcd0_z.jpg)
The upper tees offer a better visual perspective, but also bring the wind more into play.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5582320823_9ac9f940bf_z.jpg)
Back pins are accessed with relative ease, thanks to the shaved slope just beyond the green. One is best served by aiming a bit left of the flag (mid-way between the fronting bunkers for the pictured pin location), as the contours generally fee to the right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5106/5582321177_1030fbe7eb_z.jpg)
Even from the tee, the challenging contours of the green are evident. Distance control is absolutely critical.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/5582907046_c96def8d00_z.jpg)
The views from the upper tees toward Lost Farm certainly add to the experience.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5098/5582939606_7e1475f6a2_z.jpg)
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Kyle,
What I really liked about the 16th hole, was that the best and most dramatic view was from the forward tees.
TK
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Kyle,
What I really liked about the 16th hole, was that the best and most dramatic view was from the forward tees.
TK
Deuce (two gloves) is right, the views are incredible from the upper tee. Funny thing is that if you play the Terra Cotta tees, you may miss these views!
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/DSCN1180-Copy2.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/DSCN1243-1.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/DSCN1178-Copy2-1.jpg)
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17th hole overview
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5051/5582354479_17bafdd0bf_z.jpg)
Playing from the edge of Anderson Bay, the 17th tee is one of many idyllic spots found throughout the round. One feels a bit spoiled by this point.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5028/5582354967_60e3b61995_z.jpg)
Usually playing quite long into the wind, the tee shot asks one to stay left of the menacing starboard fairway bunker complex, but not so far left as to leave the green beyond reach.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5582355555_f05acee678_z.jpg)
Tee shots that end up short of the starboard bunkers will yield blind approach shots.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5582940948_eb9f4040f0_z.jpg)
Shots played from within the bunker are not likely to reach the green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5184/5582356193_d4a88f8845_z.jpg)
From the ideal landing zone, one must still contend with some serious fairway movement. Players proficient in playing from uneven lies have a distinct advantage.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5582941758_9e306fabb9_z.jpg)
The 17th putting surface is raised and deeper than it is wide. Front hole locations are mainly defended by short grass, with lateral bunkers guarding the middle and rear locations.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/5582942108_b620c3acf7_z.jpg)
This view from behind is wallpaper worthy.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5150/5582357415_93749d39c1_z.jpg)
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Kyle:
I cannot remember if I've told the story before, but that green site for #17 was the discovery that led me to re-route the back nine holes just a few months before we started construction.
I was there on a visit with Mike Keiser in December of 2002, at which point the back nine still had a clockwise routing. It wasn't 100% backwards from the current routing, and in fact I might have trouble remembering it all, but the tenth hole would have been a bit like the first at Machrihanish, back down #18 fairway with the beach left, and the eighteenth would have played back down the current 10th to a green site near present #18.
Mr. Keiser thought that would make the most boring hole(s) right at the end, and that was his least favorite criticism of Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, so he encouraged me to try and re-route the back nine the other way around. I was already leaning that way a bit, because the location for #10 green would have been near the present 18th tee, and it was obvious that would cause maintenance problems because of all the blowing sand, and that was an area best avoided with a green. So, I went out to scout the site of the present 17th hole, which was very low-lying and almost wet, and which we hadn't anticipated using up to that point. And there was that wonderful pedestal for a green, and just out of the area that seemed to be affected by drifting sand! Plus, it looked like just the right distance back from the ridge for the tee location! I took Mike out to see it, and he loved it, so I rerouted the rest of the back nine from there ... but I never did draw it up for anyone, because at that point it still wasn't clear if the course would go ahead or not, and I didn't want that routing laying around for someone else to pick up years later.
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Kyle:
I cannot remember if I've told the story before, but that green site for #17 was the discovery that led me to re-route the back nine holes just a few months before we started construction.
I was there on a visit with Mike Keiser in December of 2002, at which point the back nine still had a clockwise routing. It wasn't 100% backwards from the current routing, and in fact I might have trouble remembering it all, but the tenth hole would have been a bit like the first at Machrihanish, back down #18 fairway with the beach left, and the eighteenth would have played back down the current 10th to a green site near present #18.
Mr. Keiser thought that would make the most boring hole(s) right at the end, and that was his least favorite criticism of Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, so he encouraged me to try and re-route the back nine the other way around. I was already leaning that way a bit, because the location for #10 green would have been near the present 18th tee, and it was obvious that would cause maintenance problems because of all the blowing sand, and that was an area best avoided with a green. So, I went out to scout the site of the present 17th hole, which was very low-lying and almost wet, and which we hadn't anticipated using up to that point. And there was that wonderful pedestal for a green, and just out of the area that seemed to be affected by drifting sand! Plus, it looked like just the right distance back from the ridge for the tee location! I took Mike out to see it, and he loved it, so I rerouted the rest of the back nine from there ... but I never did draw it up for anyone, because at that point it still wasn't clear if the course would go ahead or not, and I didn't want that routing laying around for someone else to pick up years later.
Neat anecdote. Just to clarify, the original idea for the 10th tee was to place it between the shore and what is now the 18th green? That would put the tee near the left edge of this photo playing over the corner of the water towards the rising sun, correct?
I'm sure the sand has moved a bit between course construction and the day I took this photo, but that sounds like it would have been a fun tee shot. Would it have been possible to keep the original 10th tee shot but play to a less sand-targeted green site, create the 18th inland somewhat as originally intended and leave the rest of the back nine as constructed?
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5260/5582973538_6cba0b52b2_z.jpg)
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17th hole overview
... the tee shot asks one to stay left of the menacing starboard fairway bunker complex, but not so far left as to leave the green beyond reach.
As in many places the marram has been cut back on the LHS over the years, looks safe and inviting from the tee but trying to get your ball near any pin position other than back right from that angle requires a finesse I don't possess
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It may just be me but the P3's at BD - save for #7 - have a bit of too much similarity for mine ?
All the rest have significantly elevated tee shots down to green sites that are heavily contoured and have a "sameness" feel about them. It's maybe why I am not overly enamored by them when I compare them to other collections of P3's in Aust. golf.
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It may just be me but the P3's at BD - save for #7 - have a bit of too much similarity for mine ?
All the rest have significantly elevated tee shots down to green sites that are heavily contoured and have a "sameness" feel about them. It's maybe why I am not overly enamored by them when I compare them to other collections of P3's in Aust. golf.
I agree that the par 3's, while individually are all very good, could offer more variety as a set. I do like the somewhat punchbowl nature of the 5th and 16th greens, since the other 16 greens are raised.
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18th hole overview.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5582385005_e61fd5f668_z.jpg)
The 18th tee shot is not stridently challenging, given the ample width available. But those able to hug the right side will follow a much shorter path. When played into a stiff breeze, anywhere between the weeds will suffice for those hoping to make bogey.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5582971288_41435003f4_z.jpg)
Acres of tumbling fairway offer variable stances and lies from round to round, to the delight of true links lovers.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5054/5582385755_b196fd414e_z.jpg)
Approaching from the left side, the green tilts strongly to starboard. From the right, the green is more receptive but guarded by a fronting swale.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5100/5582971880_46179b0685_z.jpg)
The tiny knob sitting in the green’s front edge offers the best brand of subtle challenge. If only such features were more common on modern courses.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5027/5582972218_10f4268bc8_z.jpg)
A last longing look at Tasmania’s lovely links.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5582972584_4740232157_z.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/5582972966_42da72324a_z.jpg)
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I took the wrong time to be on the road for 3 weeks.
This thread is fantastic and I would have loved to spend some time discussing my favorite course.
I don't want to single anyone out but I am loving the thoughful comments from Bill Brightly, it was great to play with you and hear your thoughts and also follow up reading some more on here.
Obviously Kyle's camera deserves some credit too for the fantastic photos.
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It may just be me but the P3's at BD - save for #7 - have a bit of too much similarity for mine ?
All the rest have significantly elevated tee shots down to green sites that are heavily contoured and have a "sameness" feel about them. It's maybe why I am not overly enamored by them when I compare them to other collections of P3's in Aust. golf.
I think that you are right but if 16 was different, then that view would change dramatically.
ie 5, 7 and 13 are a fantastic group of par 3s.
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I am just curious if anyone actually has an idea for how to make #16 different and better. I have always been open to suggestion there -- in fact, Mike Keiser suggested the high tee on #16 the same day I related my story above, when I showed him the future #17. He thought it would be cool for the average golfer to play from a really high tee there.
Keep in mind that the ground to the right of the green is seasonally wet, so I don't know if it could be built on. Everyone loves #15 as it is, and everyone loves the position of #17 tee. So, where else would this hole fit?
I do agree with David more than with Kevin -- if you take #16 out of the picture, the other three short holes at Barnbougle are probably the best set of par-3's we've ever built.
As for #18, I am still not satisfied with the positioning of the tees there and the lack of visibility to the fairway. It is something I intend to fix someday with a bulldozer, even though the area of the tees is so dynamic because of sand blowing up from the beach that whatever we build is probably going to change over time ... the visibility today is quite a bit worse than the day we seeded it.
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I am just curious if anyone actually has an idea for how to make #16 different and better. I have always been open to suggestion there -- in fact, Mike Keiser suggested the high tee on #16 the same day I related my story above, when I showed him the future #17. He thought it would be cool for the average golfer to play from a really high tee there.
Biarritz? Or is the hole too short.
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Sven:
Thank you for proving why I dislike templates so much. There is zero about that hole or that green site which would suggest a Biarritz, that I can think of.
The only different idea I had to do the hole was to move the green over to where the fairway wraps around and enters at the back left, and make a wide, shallow green there -- that would have been very different from the other three holes. But it would have been a very difficult shot to judge, and the marram grass at the back would have killed you if you happened to pure a shot through the wind. And that green site would be a long way from #17 tee.
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Sven:
Thank you for proving why I dislike templates so much. There is zero about that hole or that green site which would suggest a Biarritz, that I can think of.
The only different idea I had to do the hole was to move the green over to where the fairway wraps around and enters at the back left, and make a wide, shallow green there -- that would have been very different from the other three holes. But it would have been a very difficult shot to judge, and the marram grass at the back would have killed you if you happened to pure a shot through the wind. And that green site would be a long way from #17 tee.
Tom:
Perhaps I'm misguided on this one, but the down hill tee shot reminded me a bit of the same shots at Yale and Old Mac. I thought there would be a bit more challenge to the 16th if the various levels on the green were slightly more defined, making it more difficult to find and hold the pinned area. I wasn't suggesting a "template" Biarritz, which would be out of character with the natural feel of Barnbougle Dunes. Rather, a pronouncement of the left to right movement of the green by creating more of a swale running off to the right. This would make it harder to find the back ledge, and could make for some interesting club choices when playing to a front pin. With the wind predominantly in your face, you'd have the ability to play a lofted shot hoping to hold the front, while still having the options to go left or chase a ball through the swale to reach a back pin.
Just my humble thoughts.
Sven
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Tom, you raise a good point about that land to the right of the 16th green. It does get boggy from time to time.
Perhaps extending the existing green a little forward and left might be an option? It could result in a green segment where a shorter, more lofted, and softer landing shot is needed, where the existing bunker comes into the equation a little more?
Your point of the marram at the back swallowing balls sort of states what the hole is like currently, in my experience anyway. There's days at Barnbougle where a really long iron is required at 16. From the low tee, balls are not seen on landing. Often times I've hit what I thought was a good shot, a bullet with a 2 iron or 3 iron, only to never see it again, presumably somewhere in the back, in the long grass.
MM
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Tom,
Given the constraints you have articulated I can now better understand why this hole poses such a challenge to get right. The options are limited.
In my mind it's is either:
Stick with the green exactly where it is but with some slight modifications so that every shot doesn't automatically feed right to left once it lands.
Move the green forward so the majority of it is between the fronting bunker and the bunker on the hill to the left. In the process raising what is currently the front of the green to leave a large swale at the back and right of the green. I really can't remember what teeing options you currently have between the 15th and the current set of tees but this change would also probably benefit from moving the tees back (except for the high tee which could remain - and be a very tricky angle) about 20 yards.
The third option would be to push the green back and onto the hill to the left of the rear bunker. The downside of this is that the hole then becomes an absolute bear back into the wind and probably approaching 190 yards. It also removes that fronting bunker from play which would be a shame.
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I do agree with David more than with Kevin -- if you take #16 out of the picture, the other three short holes at Barnbougle are probably the best set of par-3's we've ever built.
Tom
Better than Old Mac and Pacific Dunes ?
IMO #7 is easily the best of the collection at BD but I'm not convinced as a unit - BD's are as good as those I mention above. I like 5 and the green on 13 is really good but 16 really lets the others down.
I prefer RMW / KH and even LF's P3 sets over BD.
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..... a bullet with a 2 iron or 3 iron, ...........
MM
MM,
are they the ones that only climb about 25 metres?
I don't have an aerial in front of me, would there be room to move the lower tees left & orient the green such that the large dune that is currently front left was directly in the line of play. Given pin position you would play left/right of it or directly over to a flag hidden from the tee?
(all this would require some dirt moving obviously)
This leads to 2 other changes; a)the hole would play more across the prevailing wind but still against it; b) The now unused top tee could now be the site for my house.....just saying.
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Given the healthy supply of short fours on the course, I'd have liked a really long three perhaps like 4 at StAB requiring a hybrid or wood.
Into a stiff breeze it might not be reachable for some, but it would continue to blur the line of "par" and its importance the way 4, 7, 8 and 12 already do.
Perhaps moving the 16th green back and left to create such a hole?
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I have only played Barnbougle in the last 6 motnhs, and actually played LF first.
I wonder whether there were the same 'issues' with Barnbougle 16 prior to Lost Farm 15 being built.
Were the three downhill par 3's discussed as much prior to six months ago?
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Guys, I too have not been able to keep up with this great thread as much as I'd have liked, also – great work Gun Show.
I think the two top tees, white and Blue (Melaleuca and Marrum), are strictly a tourist stop, should be deleted as tee boxes and changed to 'viewing platform', as there is not a lot of good golf from up there, I did see an Ace from the top tee in late Feb and 4 days earlier another Ace from our GCA Mr. Cole from the Boobs tee.
My favourite tee on 16 and IMO, by far the best tee - is the Forrester Black tee, just off to the back left of 15 green, it plays longer and at 165m+ to a back pin is pretty tough, add in prevailing breeze of a couple of clubs and at 175-185m/over 200 yards - straight into the teeth, it plays semi blind over the large front bunker and a daunting shot - I think that pretty much covers Scott's brief - I also believe this provides a decent balance for the breezes and hole 5 - where either 5 or 16 has the prevailing and the other down breeze.
(one small criticism is that the turf left of the green on the slope, does not always seem to play as it was intended(?), a ball can sometimes stop halfway down the slope – more for short game shots though.)
TD: But that is not my suggestion, Barnbougle's biggest challenge, again, IMO, is the depth of the course from the Dunes and how the wind, always dominant, can be better utilised.
Suggestion - possibly keep all the tees (perhaps add another tee west toward the 17 tee), but reverse them and play to a green set up on top of the dune LEFT of the LEFT bunker(or on top of this bunker) toward the 14th tee – keep the existing green surface as short cut fairway, and have a long narrow green that offers a miss to the right and the prevailing breeze, treacherous shot if you miss right, area left of green left as wild sand and dunes. I am guessing it would play between 130 and 150 m, but without the teeth of either Westerly or Easterly – a cross breeze shot demanding something certainly different on the B9, and in fact I do not think a shot in this direction across the 18. I think that distance would sit nicely amongst the rest of the P3’s. A Shorter hole is always going to be more fun and also more playable for the different wind speeds.
It would play away from the Forrester River, standing on the tee, aspects either side would be down 15 and 17, but it would increase walk from 16 green to 17 tee. Potential for the tees to have a spread of 100m from 15 green to 17 tee providing great options for different tee shots - with your back to LF?? The larger front bunker can stay also.
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Thanks to all of the participants. As I'd hoped, there were some tasty morsels of information offered by the architect and some of Barnbougle's most dedicated customers.
For those who have yet to visit Tasmania, hopefully you are now inspired to make the trip.
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Kyle,
Thanks very much for your photo tour and thread, I know you had a hectic period upon your return stateside, so a lot of work required to produce this, well done - it is very much appreciated.
Brett
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I am just curious if anyone actually has an idea for how to make #16 different and better. I have always been open to suggestion there -- in fact,
I would just cut it out of the routing. The back tee at 17 is close to 15 green so nothing would be missed.
If you removed 16 at Barnbougle and 18A at Lost Farm (ther is no real incentive to play it) out of their respective courses that leaves a 17 hole course and a 19 hole course.
You would have the best 17 hole course on the planet next to the best 19 hole course on the planet next door to each other. great for marketing.
If players feel that they really really really have to have an 18 hole course, you make 13A at Lost Farm, part of Barnbougle Dunes. It is a better hole than 16 at Barnbougle, improving the course, and may also encouraging players to play both courses. ie. When players walk off 18 (now 17 at Barnbougle) the pro shop tells them tey have to get in their car and drive 3 miles to finish the round by playing 13A. They think to themselves "If we are going to drive over there, we may as well play Lost Farm whilst we are there. "
If you are interested in approaching Bill Coore about borrowing 13A from Lost Farm for your course, let me know and I can write more on this plan and how to make it work.
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If you are interested in approaching Bill Coore about borrowing 13A from Lost Farm for your course, let me know and I can write more on this plan and how to make it work.
I think they'll have to get that lawsuit settled first.
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If you are interested in approaching Bill Coore about borrowing 13A from Lost Farm for your course, let me know and I can write more on this plan and how to make it work.
I think they'll have to get that lawsuit settled first.
Thats the beauty of the plan, Tom. The Barnbougle investors get 1/19th of Lost Farm - which seems about right.
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I would just cut it out of the routing. The back tee at 17 is close to 15 green so nothing would be missed.
I am just curious if anyone actually has an idea for how to make #16 different and better. I have always been open to suggestion there -- in fact,
I've never taken much notice, but is there any room over the back of the 14th green to build a short par 3 in the direction to the estuary?
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Kyle,
This pictorial and the associated comments have been simply wonderful. It will make it a "doddle" for me now to entice my golfing mates to make the pilgrimage from here in Brisbane. The unfolding Lost Farm thread will do no harm at all! Both of these combined with Sven's You Tube extravaganzas make it a foregone conclusion.
Many thanks to you both.
Colin.
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Kyle, great tour. Wonderful commentary, and its always great to get Tom's take on his work.
For those that missed it, and for those who want to see it again, here's the youtube link for the Barnbougle Dunes video Colin mentioned above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbo7CkPCTF8.
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Bump
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Anthony
I was down there last weekend for 90 holes, not a cloud in the sky, beautiful light breezes, and perfect golf weather.
Courses are both in great knick, and Lost Farm just continues to improve on each visit, the turf is getting stronger and better.
To the comments of the last couple of pages, I still think there are two problems with BD,
1. 16 is the worst hole in the routing IMO only( I hope when dispute is sorted out, that some funds will be allocate to improve this and the next)
2. Tee shot on 18, would be great to see something done with this, I would love to the see the Beach more "in play", with a risk reward carry scenario on the tee shot and perhaps some visibility of the green site if possible. The blind drive is a al bore on the last tee shot. Probably the back tee is still the best tee shot on this hole.
And one comment, that is just that, not an issue, but an observation.
#8: as you leave the #7 green, I would have thought, (and the length of the green to tee walk suggests that it was a possibility) that the natural thing to do, would be to walk straight up onto the beach head dune(more views) to play it as a long par 5, the green and approach would still play exactly the same. Some clearing out of scrub, marram and softening of the dune left of existing boobs tee required, front tees could still be from the existing boobs.
I know there are the steep dunes making the chute tee shot quite narrow, but I am only talking about adding 50m to the Boobs and Black tees, not all the way back to the 7green. Also acknowledge ajames an comment, that important to avoid a drive to a flat area, 2nd over fairway bluff and approach to green.
So instead of being the toughest P4 I've ever played, it would be the toughest P5 I've ever played. Optional play off the existing tees to play as a par 4 if desired.
The fact that it would change the F9 to 2 x P5 and a par of 36, would not be the incentive to change it.
We discussed while down there, that of course, if it stays as it is, it will become infamous in the many years to come.