Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Richard Choi on February 15, 2011, 06:59:05 PM
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OK, I am liking this idea more and more so I might as well go for it.
I propose that we have a March Madness style comparison for all of the famous template holes. This is how it will work:
1. I will collect a list of all the templates (i.e. Road Hole, Biarritz, Alps, etc. Please respond to this thread with a template you would like to see)
2. I will start a new thread per each template to collect nominations.
3. Once all the nominations are in, I will seed them (based on feedback from the folks).
4. The template holes will go head-to-head and people will cast the vote on which they prefer (should I open this to everyone or should I open this to only people who have played both?).
5. The winners will proceed until only one is left standing.
6. Rinse and repeat for all remaining templates.
What do you think?
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Ha Ha, Spion Kop, Cape,
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I propose we have 16 regionals which will take 4 holes from each category. We can take the winners from each of those and put them up agains each other.
Alps
Biarritz
Bottle
Cape
Dell
Double Plateau
Eden
Hogsback
Leven
Maiden
Punchbowl
Principal's Nose
Redan
Road
Sahara
Short
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I've got my towel tucked in and I'm ready to play.
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I like it Alex!!! But I want to have the champion crowned for each template. But we can definitely have the Sweet 16 tournament with all of the winners.
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Richard, what about the few holes that have several attributes? The 4th hole at Fisher's Island has some Alps hole features and a Punchbowl green. Maybe a "double feature" or did that sound too much like a movie date?
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Keith, based on the fact that this "madness" is probably going to last longer than most people's interest, let's limit it to the 16 above that Alex has suggested (if you have objections to the list, speak NOW!).
You can always submit your hybrid holes and see how they come out in the voting...
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Fair enough Richard, maybe the 4th at Fisher's can be nominted in both categories and face itself in the championship!
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We REALLY don't have to do 16. I just wanted that many for the purposes of a bracket. Maybe just 10 would be good, if still not too many. Here are the 10 I would do:
Alps
Biarritz
Cape
Double Plateau
Eden
Punchbowl
Redan
Road
Sahara
Short
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Apocalypse is upon us
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Don't forget the island green par 3 hole.
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Don't forget the island green par 3 hole.
Check the aerial of The Pit on another page one thread........
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Richard,
That's a novel idea.
I like it because it will identify template holes, or variations/hybrids of template holes, that many have never seen.
It would be great if we could get ground level photos to match the holes, since we can also view them on Google Earth.
My guess is that NGLA will come up with more than one winner.
I know, Eastern Bias.
But, the "Bottle" 8th hole, the Alps 3rd, Redan 4th, Short 6th, Road 7th, Double Plateau 11th, Eden 13th, Punchbowl 16th, Leven 17th, Valley 1st, Sahara 2nd, Hogs back 5th, Cape 14th, Narrows 15th and Home 18th are tough to beat.
I have a good idea, how about a beaten 18 flight, conceding the championship flight entirely to NGLA(;;)
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Pat, certainly NGLA will be a high seed in almost every region, but I suspect that the crowd here may be rooting for some cinderellas...
It will all start tomorrow!
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Jason,
Is Spion Kop really a template, or just a name that has become common in the UK? I guess all Spion Kop holes have a steeply elevated green but some are par 3s, some par 4s. If it is a template, which is the original? Also, most templates seem to have become "templates" by being copied in the US. Is there a Spion Kop in the US?
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Mark has a good point about the original for a template (although I suspect we don't really know many of the originals - instead we know teh first famous type), but I certainly think a Spion Kop is a well used concept. Furthermore, I am not sure a specific par needs to be applied for some templates. The Dell for example could be any par as it is all about the green.
Ciao
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Isn't the Spion Kop what is sometimes referred to as a Knoll hole? I seem to recall from George Bahto's excellent The Evangelist of Golf book that there is one of these at Piping Rock based on a hole at Scotscraig in Fife? Incidentally Brian, this book gives avery good description of all of CBM's templates and if you can find a copy its worth reading.
Maybe the template idea only really took off in the States with CBM? Many are based upon the use of a key natural feature like Punchbowl and Knoll and therefore were used over time by different early architects in the UK on different courses as they coincidentally used the land that was in front of them in similar ways? Maybe this is why we get lots of "is it a Redan" type discussions about UK courses but in the States they have made a concious effort to duplicate the best strategy and use of natural landforms?
Cheers,
James
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James,
Is that right? I didn't know. It's a long time since I played Scotscraig and I don't recall it well (when I did play it I was very much a golfing beginner and had no idea at all about architecture, some things never change). I should make an effort to get up there from Elie this summer.
Mark
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Mark,
I've never played Spion Kop but my understanding is thats its a green raised up on a well, knoll, and fall offs all around.
I just checked Bahto's book. Knoll is based on the 4th at Scotscraig. Its generally a short par 4 averaging 300 yards, to a green that is blind because of its extreme height above the fairway with steep fall off on all sides. 13th at Piping Rock is the prototype CBM version.
A bit like the 6th at Hunstanton for anyone who has played it? Does this match the Spion Kop?
Cheers,
James
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James,
Somewhere in the webosphere there's a great article on Spion Kops by Tom Dunne - here http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=1994 . I don't think there is a "the Spion Kop", more a variety of them. Most, though, are par 3s, I think. Also, I very much doubt that the Spion Kop at Balcomie, at least, was based on the Scotscraig hole, since according to the Scotscraig website the current course was redesigned by Braid in 1923. Balcomie was laid out in 1895, I think. So it's likely that Knoll holes and Spion Kops have similar features but that one was not copied from the other (unless Westward Ho! at Scotscraig was influenced by Spion Kop at Balcomie, which I assume Braid, being brought up in Fife, was very familiar with?).
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The Yeamans Hall redan has to be the dark horse pick to win it all!! The slope of the green is amazing!!!
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What about the Postage Stamp ?
The original at Troon (or was it ?) and copies at Silloth and Muirfield (as referred to by Darwin if I remember correctly, and now gone ?).
Niall
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I am happy to add to the list. I want to see how things move along as we go...
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Volcano greens
Drop shots
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"Chasm" ????
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For those of us that haven't played the originals of some of these template holes (or the copies!), a brief description of each category would be greatly appreciated if anyone has the time...
Not to sound lazy, I just can't find a definitive list with descriptions by doing a search...
Brian:
A very good rundown here, courtesy of George Bahto:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/george-bahto
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Will the Spion Kop at Anfield count?
If it does can I include the Stretford End?
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Richard - when you create your list of templates I would love to see the course of the original version listed along with the year of its creation, if known. This would be a great resource.