Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jason Topp on February 09, 2011, 11:31:16 PM
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In the deep freeze of winter, I have put together a fun travel year, including trips to Maui, Austin, Florida, the Dixie Cup and others. The purpose of this thread is to provide my impressions of courses I visit. Where appropriate, I hope to feature a few pictures to either make a point or convey the essence of the trip. I have found in the past that taking pictures detracts from the golf experience for me. My plan this year is to take (when appropriate) isolated pictures of interesting features or when the light is good. I hope to provide entertainment and develop some skills.
My first scheduled trip this year was to Phoenix in late January to play Phoenix Country Club with a new boss, spend some time with my wife and squeeze an additional round of golf into the trip. The weather was beautiful - 80 degrees and clear skies. Unfortunately, I was in Duluth, Minnesota. Conditions were not ideal for golf and reminded me of my first trip with GCA'ers to Sutton Bay:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/DSCN0071.jpg)
I went North because my daughter's figure skating coach decided she was ready to enter a competition and that she should do so the same weekend as my Phoenix trip. I swallowed the $150 flight cancellation charge, drove my wife to the airport and paid inflated hotel rates for a room located near the arena - the hotel being filled with highly stressed and highly vocal girls and their parents from the Northern US and parts of Canada.
Nonetheless, I was able to hone my camera skills as this shot demonstrates both me and my daughter in action:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Event727313558.jpg)
In the picture I am attempting to videotape the performance. Unfortunately, when I pressed the button to stop the video, the recording started. This was an expensive mistake that led to the purchase of professionally created photos and a video.
Conditioning proved to be a problem at this venue as part of the ice on the one of the two rinks melted, throwing the competition schedule in disarray. Because of this problem, I got to spend some wonderful moments with my daughter - me trying to talk to her - she willing to do so provided there was no chance anyone would see such an event.
I know nothing about figure skating (my daughter's first lesson consisted of the coach telling her that the $25 skates I bought her needed to be replaced). Nonetheless, I take full credit for the result - a flawless program and a medal.
Overall, I do not recommend Duluth Minnesota as a destination for a January golf trip. On Friday, I will get on a plane for a quick weekend in the land of cart paths and alligators. I am hoping for better golf conditions and I look forward to seeing my father and old friends. However, I doubt I will have more fun.
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nice post Jason. I look forward to your periodic reports.
James B
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Jason,
Congratulations to your daughter, she is beautiful. Must have a gorgeous mother.
Bob
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Jason,
Congratulations to your daughter, she is beautiful. Must have a gorgeous mother.
Bob
Good analysis Bob.
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Jason,
Congratulations to your daughter, she is beautiful. Must have a gorgeous mother.
Bob
And a droll Dad. It's a winning combination.
I look forward to more
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Jason,
Congrats to your daughter. You will only have a short time to make these memories, there will always be another trip to Phoenix!
January in Duluth, kind of ironic to have a problem with the ice!
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Jason --
A talented daughter is a joy to behold.
So is a friend's talented daughter! Congratulations to her (and to you -- and, of course, to the apparently *gorgeous* Claire!).
Rose and I used to spend a midwinter weekend in Duluth every year, with her traveling basketball team. I'd take one more of those weekends in exchange for a lifetime of winters in Phoenix!
Have fun this weekend.
Dan
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Can't put a price on a smile like that.
Thanks for sharing, look forward to your updates.
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Can't put a price on a smile like that.
The banks and the airlines would, if they could get away with it!
Just heard a radio ad for a bank, where the woman asks to withdraw $100. The cashier gives her $97.50. "What's this?" the customer asks. "Where's the rest of my money?"
Let's see, there's the $1.50 service charge ... 50 cents additional for in-person service ... and 50 cents for "eye contact."
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.
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Adding to a tough day at work, I had the added compensation of comparing my fate today, which included the following views:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/IMG00026-20110210-0736.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/IMG00028-20110210-0743.jpg)
with those of my wife which included the following:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/India004.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/India132.jpg)
She abandoned me in Minneapolis for work in India - a place I always dreamed of visiting.
Anyone who doubts the power of India's intellectual capital would do well to keep in mind this comparison of a US building erected in 1982 for the purpose of sporting events as seen from my office:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/IMG00029-20110210-1621.jpg)
versus my wife's view of a building built in India built in the 17th century inspired by love:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/India014.jpg)
Fortunately, she returns home tonight.
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A wise person once advised that the way one learns good judgment is through the exercise of bad judgment. While I suspect John's advice is antiquated in light of the facebook era, I nonetheless respect his history and have changed my original post to delete pictures of my daughter.
Jason --
While not nearly so tragic as the events outlined in John's post, this deletion, too, strikes me as tragic.
Your suspicion about the Facebook age is correct -- and John's unimaginably sad experience is proof that the computer age did not invent such evil.
I hope that you will not self-censor the pride you rightly feel in your daughter, for fear of exposing her to forces to which all of us are, whether we know it or not, already exposed. You can't live a full life, hidden.
Dan
P.S. That's not such a bad view, from your office! Every day, you look down at that beautiful (to my eyes, anyway) Romanesque courthouse -- where justice may or may not be dispensed -- and down the way you see that horrible (in any condition), deflated Metrodome -- daily proof that there is, in fact, some justice in the world!
Look on the bright side: You could drive another 10 miles east, in crappy traffic morning and night, and be looking UP at Galtier Plaza and the 1st National Bank of St. Paul -- with its index finger permanently in the air, proclaiming "We're Number 1st!" (Who's kidding whom?)
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Jason --
While not nearly so tragic as the events outlined in John's post, this deletion, too, strikes me as tragic.
Dan:
Thanks for the words. In the tradition of Solomon, I decided to go half and half.
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Oh - and the view is actually from the bathroom of my office - the best view on my floor.
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When I accumulate marital points I cash in quickly. Thus, when my wife returned from India safe and sound, I welcomed her home by giving her a hug, packing a suitcase and catching the first flight to Florida. After an evening flight and a good night’s sleep I awoke to sunrise over the Peace River:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011002resized.jpg)
I then quickly scampered back inside. In a fit of karma – the temperature was 37 degrees and the wind blew fifteen miles per hour out of the North.
The itinerary included two rounds of golf with my father – one at Fiddlesticks in Fort Myers and the other at Bradenton Country Club with esteemed GCA participant Ben Kodadek.
I first visited Fiddlesticks in 1992. One of my best friends in law school was travelling to Florida for a long weekend to visit his parents and, like the thoughtful friend I am, I invited myself along. Our lodgings that original weekend consisted of a small condominium perfect for two, but with my addition housed six. I showed my appreciation by drinking prodigious amounts of their beer.
Our host was Curt Pearson, a giant bear of a man with a golf swing that defies all scientifically accepted theories of physics and biology. Curt knows how to use that swing, he has a terrific touch with greenside shots that do not rise above knee height and is a ferocious competitor. He also is a person who speaks his mind, but whatever thoughts he had about the impetuousness of a kid inviting himself to stay in such small confines, he held his tongue when he realized the profit opportunity that existed in competing against a shaky midwinter swing that still carried a summer handicap.
After that experience, Curt invited me back time and time again. He also purchased a very nice and rather large house on the golf course. I have no doubt that those two occurrences were related. Curt is now 83 and his handicap has grown to absurd numbers but his scorecard always seems to read at least “1 up” when he plays with me.
Fortunately for my pocketbook, Curt injured himself this year and could not play. He nonetheless found us a willing partner and followed us around the course, “helpfully” pointing out the water hazards along the way.
For me, the Long Mean course at Fiddlesticks represents the best of Florida housing community golf. As its name suggests, the course provides ample challenge and hosted the 2010 US Women’s Senior Amateur Championship. It has served as the practice ground for a number of tour professionals over the years. Even on this weekend, at least one member of the Senior Tour could be found in the clubhouse, no doubt getting ready for the event in Naples the following week.
For those that consider “Florida housing community golf” to be the lowest form of the game, I advise you to relax. Fiddlesticks presents interesting strategic and shot making challenges that tempt and thrill all classes of player. The flowers and ponds are artificial, but then again so is the concept of playing golf on swampland. The birds are fantastic, and most rounds also include a lesson in how a different species finds food. Furthermore, where else will you find a sight like this:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011016Resized.jpg)
Focusing on the golf alone, the Long Mean presents challenges that are difficult, but only if one overestimates his abilities. Often, a conservative play will result in a lower score. The challenge has only increased with changes to the grass on the greens – making them extremely fast, very firm and with enough grain to confound a northern visitor.
The 15th is one of my favorites. The hole measures 373 yards from the blue tees and could be classified as a Cape. It provides the classic heroic alternatives off the tee associated with the Mid-Ocean version of the hole. A conservative bail out can result in a 200 yard approach. An extremely aggressive drive can get one within 100 yards of the green. The fairway is very wide on the left but narrows as one takes a more aggressive line off the tee.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011007cropped.jpg)
The reward for an aggressive tee shot is ample as the approach is extremely demanding – to a small green that juts into the water and slopes significantly from left to right. An overly conservative tee shot not only increases the length of the approach, but also presents a less attractive angle to the green with bunkers and slope protecting all but a very accurate shot:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011009cropped.jpg)
My father hit the perfect tee shot, only to pursue a unique strategy on the approach – a shank. At least I won that hole.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011011cropped.jpg)
I always look forward to playing the fifteenth but probably enjoy this view looking back the best. It means I have survived:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011013resized.jpg)
The ninth hole would receive howls of protest from many GCA participants. It is an island green on a par four of 388 yards (blue tees). It features a forced carry approach of approximately 100 yards but most often in the 120-150 yard range after a well placed tee ball. Tee shots out of position wind up in waste areas on the left or trees on the right. The green is large but contains enough slope that two-putting is a significant challenge if one does not place the approach near the hole.
View from the tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011029resized.jpg)
Often, matches are decided by who hits the fewest iron shots in the water. Hence, the decision to lay-up or hit a heroic approach when out of position off the tee is usually a difficult choice. Laying up is usually the right call but a difficult one to make when it seems entirely possible to have a ball go under a limb, climb high in the air and land softly in the middle of the green. My father decided the latter approach was the reasonable one even though he has never hit a shot of that nature in his entire lifetime. I prevailed on the hole – one ball in the water against two for him and managed a draw on the front nine (our second).
Curt applauds such decisions because they feed both his wallet in bets as well as his true passion – picking golf balls out of the water with the longest golf ball retriever known to humankind.
View of the approach:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011030resized.jpg)
While I am glad it is not a template, I enjoy playing the 9th each and every time I visit – whether it results in winning a hole by a score of 8 to 9 or the thrill of making a no stress par, the hole provides a memorable finish.
For those with fixed views on what does and does not constitute “proper golf” I urge you to widen your horizons. I believe the sight of an 83 year old man balancing on fake rocks to capture his eleven thousandth Top Flite reflects as much about the spirit of the game as one thousand hickory shafted golfers navigating around sheep droppings in Scotland.
I highly recommend Fiddlesticks and look forward to returning again someday.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011021cropped.jpg)
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Could someone tell me how to adjust these pictures so they fit on the page?
I figured it out. You start with [IMG width=800]
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Adding to a tough day at work, I had the added compensation of comparing my fate today, which included the following views:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/IMG00026-20110210-0736.jpg)
BMW Jason?
James B
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Jason, I have the hookup and can get you on the Fiddlesticks here in Tempe:
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/ce0366fe-8a85-48cb-a0b6-23eb615147db.jpg)
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BMW Jason?
James B
Yes - a proud moment of father and son working together. My son is 15 and discusses at length potential cars we might want to purchase for him on his 16th birthday. I explained to him that any car he gets will be of substantially lower quality than my car - at that time a 2000 Honda Odyssey minivan with 200,000 miles of experience. He immediately began lobbying his mother suggesting that Dad needed a new car. Soon, Mother and daughter were both lobbying me. In an effort to help them both out - I bought a lease return this winter.
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Jason, I'm a little confused by the ninth hole. Is that the green beyond the tree in the distance? Does the hole dogleg around the tree?
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Bill. I will take a look at the picture when I get to a computer. The hole is a slight dogleg right with the line off the tee at the flagpole.
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Bill. I will take a look at the picture when I get to a computer. The hole is a slight dogleg right with the line off the tee at the flagpole.
That must be a neighboring green in the photo.
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Nice pix. As for resizing, I believe there is a way within the UBB code to do it when you do the img tag - someone like Scott Burroughs or Joe Bausch probably know how - might want to just try inserting a tag similar to the img tag, but with size=800 or something like that (that's just a wild guess) and then close it with /size. Or you can resize your original photos - my experience is that 800 pixels is the best size for pix on here, but others may disagree.
Look forward to the next update.
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Bill. I will take a look at the picture when I get to a computer. The hole is a slight dogleg right with the line off the tee at the flagpole.
That must be a neighboring green in the photo.
You are correct. That is the putting green.
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Jason,
I played Fiddlesticks a couple of times some 30 years ago. I joined a group of three Germans which included the then president of whatever the German golf federation is called. The three had been to a Golf Digest weeklong camp, were burnt to a crisp, and could barely move from all the previous work on their games. We all played terrible, had a great time, and they asked me to join them the next day which I did. Loved the low profile construction, the beach bunkers, the somewhat unsual trees, and the great variety in this fine Ron Garl course. Years later I met Ron at a golf conference and we had long conversations about the industry and his work. Interesting man. Good memories.
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Jason, I have the hookup and can get you on the Fiddlesticks here in Tempe:
I am going to try and take advantage of that one. What is the dress code?
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Jason,
I played Fiddlesticks a couple of times some 30 years ago. I joined a group of three Germans which included the then president of whatever the German golf federation is called. The three had been to a Golf Digest weeklong camp, were burnt to a crisp, and could barely move from all the previous work on their games. We all played terrible, had a great time, and they asked me to join them the next day which I did. Loved the low profile construction, the beach bunkers, the somewhat unsual trees, and the great variety in this fine Ron Garl course. Years later I met Ron at a golf conference and we had long conversations about the industry and his work. Interesting man. Good memories.
Thanks Lou. One of the guys I played with was of German Heritage. He offered to play for a beer. That did not work out too well for me.
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Wow Jason! She's come a long way from cartwheels in my living room! Boy do they grow up fast.
Cheers
Pete
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Wow Jason! She's come a long way from cartwheels in my living room! Boy do they grow up fast.
Cheers
Pete
Nice to hear from you Pete. How old are yours these days?
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One reason I tend to prefer older courses over new creations is the ability of an older course to surprise. The lack of earth moving equipment in the earlier part of this century required that odd features of the land be incorporated into the design rather than eliminated.
By contrast, even the most controversial courses of today, provide ample clues as to what lies ahead. Tobacco Road is one of the more controversial modern designs featuring a plethora of blind tee shots. Nonetheless the corridors of play are fairly well defined provided that the player pays attention to the dunes in the background and the yardage book.
It was interesting therefore to play Bradenton Country Club, designed by Donald Ross in 1924 and renovated by Ron Garl in 1999. The course is located on an almost dead flat site, and earthmoving appears minimal to this untrained eye. One would not think such a course would present significant surprises to the player, but when my tee shot on the 3rd disappeared into a small pond that covered most of the fairway, I learned otherwise. I did not learn well enough because my approach on a hole 7 disappeared into another unseen body of water.
Even though these surprises are unpleasant, I would rather play a course that contains them than a course devoid of unusual features. I might hit the ball in the water again on these holes but I would know the challenge I face and would enjoy fighting the uncertainty associated with their blindness.
Surprise was the theme of the day at Bradenton. Our own Ben Kodadek arranged the round and asked whether my father and I wanted to walk the course and take caddies. While that is my preferred form of play, such an effort would have been difficult given physical limitations of my father. Thank goodness we did not walk because a member at the club had kindly arranged for Ben and his friend Dave to take this cart:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011033.jpg)
Apparently this cart surprised the members at Bradenton as well. Between his pink sweater and the cart, Ben was the star of the day at the club. It did not appear that they had seen the cart before despite it being owned by one of their members.
Ben and Dave also surprised us in their method of attacking the course. As these pictures demonstrate, they had little interest in using any of the conventional areas of play:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011038.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011043.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011050.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011052.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011068.jpg)
At least they demonstrated their support for a well paid college football team in Nebraska:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011069.jpg)
Another surprise at the course was the bunker style. I am no Donald Ross expert. However, as much as I admire Ron Garl’s work at Fiddlesticks, this bunkering does not exactly send the message that one is playing a classic Donald Ross course:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011066.jpg)
I believe bunker style is overemphasized on this site because it is an issue that is easy to portray in pictures. These bunkers play fantastic and present real hazards. They eat into the greens, have steep faces and seem well positioned. I also do not know how much the current course reflects Ross’ original design. Nonetheless, I would probably have chosen a style more in line with something Ross might have created.
Another big surprise of the day at Bradenton was my father’s play. My father does not play as much golf as he used to, but my efforts to assign him a handicap in the past have usually shortchanged him. Ben – who has experience with me as a partner – started the day by immediately choosing my father as a partner instead of me. That was a good decision by Ben (although a rough one for Dad). Click on the picture below for one of my father’s shots along with my commentary supporting his efforts:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/th_Florida2011048.jpg) (http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/?action=view¤t=Florida2011048.mp4)
By contrast, Dave got me as a partner – assigned a 5 handicap by some new form of mathmatics invented by an evil genius at the USGA. Dave did not say much during the round. At one point after losing another hole for the team, I commented “I think I am starting to understand why I shot 91 yesterday.” Dave commented “You better figure out how to shoot 91 today.”
Fortunately, Dave carried me around the course using his unique strategy of attack and I was able to partially offset my losses in my individual match with my father.
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The trip to Florida was a wonderful opportunity to quickly escape the winter doldrums and reconnect with my father.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011063.jpg)
It was also a wonderful opportunity for my father’s wife Tammy to find a different tennis partner and win a tournament (pictured with her partner’s daughter):
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011073.jpg)
But regardless of any impact on my father’s future tennis partnership, he can always take comfort in the fact he will never appear in a picture like this:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011070.jpg)
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[obsolete]
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Click on the picture below for one of my father’s shots along with my commentary supporting his efforts:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/th_Florida2011048.jpg) (http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/?action=view¤t=Florida2011048.mp4)
Straight from the Johnny Miller Broadcasting School!
Where'd it end up? Short right, in the bunker?
Oh, I see it now. Nice shot, Dad!
(I thought I'd detected your saying things like that, under your breath, on the rare occasion when I've hit a good shot!)
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(Where'd the ball end up? Short right, in the bunker?)
Actually next to the hole. The shaky camera captures the ball at the end.
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Jason,
Thanks for throwing me under the bus, er.....cart.
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Jason,
Thanks for throwing me under the bus, er.....cart.
Journalistic integrity required that I do so.
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Great thread....had me chuckling throughout.
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Jason,
Post round, we retired to the clubhouse for a bite to eat. They had aerials of the course prior to Garl's work in '99. Unfortunately, he increased the pond size throughout the course dramatically. I would guess by 30%. Both balls you hit on 3 and 7 would have been dry if we were playing in 1998!
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Jason,
Post round, we retired to the clubhouse for a bite to eat. They had aerials of the course prior to Garl's work in '99. Unfortunately, he increased the pond size throughout the course dramatically. I would guess by 30%. Both balls you hit on 3 and 7 would have been dry if we were playing in 1998!
That shoots a gaping hole in my theory that surprises are associated with old courses. Fortunately, my credo is to prioritize narrative over accuracy.
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... my credo is to prioritize narrative over accuracy.
In other words: Journalistic Integrity!
You're catching on, Jason....
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My wife helpfully sent me a photo of the course near her hotel last weekend. I cannot imagine anyone can name this course:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/IMG_4251.jpg)
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The driving range and first tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/IMG_4253.jpg)
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Stupid narrow and a batting cage range, reminds me of Dallas Country Club.
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The pictures are from a 3,000 yard nine hole course (with two flags on each green) called Club Deportivo Cocoyoc a couple of hours outside of Mexico City. It is located next to a remarkable hotel Hacienda Cocyoc that dates to the 17th Century and was originally a sugar plantation. Aqueducts, chapels and walls with trees growing out of them are located on the property. We have stayed at the hotel several times in connection with charitable meetings my wife and I attend. I was unable to make it this year.
http://www.cocoyoc.com.mx/www/golf.html
http://www.cocoyoc.com.mx/cocoyoc_eng/index.php
I have played the nine hole course once with rented clubs accompanied by a professional from a club in Mexico City and his son. Communication was limited to my 50-100 words of Spanish but the bond of a father teaching his son a difficult game in an exotic location, the struggles of putting on old school bermuda greens (think velcro), and the thrill of the professional holing out for an eagle on a par four are memories I will always hold fondly.
There is also an 18 hole course nearby that I have never visited.
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Jason:
I almost guessed those two photos were of the little Par 3 course in Pasadena, FL just off I275. I'm sure Ben Kodadek knows the exact one about which I am speaking.
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Last weekend I travelled with my long time foursome to visit Barton Creek in Austin, Texas. My research on this website yielded little information about the courses at the resort, of which there are four. I did not take too many pictures on this trip. I was too busy enjoying good company, trying to digest giant ribs and trying to win $2 bets to focus on my photography skills.
As to the resort, it is a very enjoyable place to stay with nice rooms and good service. Barton Creek adheres to the strategy of getting customers in the door with a low rate off season and then soaking the customers on premise. Food and beverage is incredibly expensive although the breakfast buffet included in the price was outstanding. Carts for replay rounds were priced at $30 per person and a cart is a necessity on all but the Crenshaw course unless one enjoys mountain climbing. We quickly learned to do our eating off site.
While none of the courses would make a listing of the top courses I have played they provide a nice opportunity for someone interested in golf course architecture to compare the two leading approaches to designing courses in recent decades: two Fazio courses and an early Coore/Crenshaw minimalist effort.
Fazio Foothills
The Fazio courses are the most popular at the resort. The original course (Fazio Foothills) dates to 1987. It is a cartball course on severe terrain with some long drives between holes. It also probably sets a record for the most waterfalls on any course on earth. The course seemed very narrow to me, with the narrowness more pronounced by very firm ground and wind in the 10-15 mph range. The greens were pretty demanding on one’s iron game with plenty of creek beds and other severe hazards guarding the front of relatively small greens.
I was apparently too busy hitting duck hooks into the trees to take any pictures of the course but this link provides a course tour.
http://www.bartoncreek.com/fazio-foothills.aspx
One thing Fazio seems to do well that I enjoy is to include short par threes. On this course three of the four par threes measure less than 150 yards from the tees we played. The course also has a terrific short par four of about 260 yards – slightly uphill. Off the tee it looks like a no brainer to try and drive the green but extremely severe bunkers and depressions short left of the green as well as a very large cliff hard against the back of the green create significant risk to those that attempt such an aggressive shot. I would need to play the hole a few times to form a solid opinion but in our group, four drives wound up on the perimeter of the green and the result was one par, one bogey and two doubles. Laying up would most likely resulted in an easy par.
I do not remember a lot of memorable holes on the course. The 18th is a memorable par five finish that winds uphill and has a cave guarding the aggressive 2nd (or 3rd shot).
One effect of these short holes is that the course plays a bit longer than the yardage on the card. We played it from the gold tees (a little over 6600 yards) and it seemed infinitely longer, even in warm weather.
Fazio Canyons
The Canyons course is a few miles away from the main resort. I would guess the course post-dates the Foothills course. It provides more room off the tee than the Foothills course and is generally less demanding on iron play. It seemed to me that the greens were less severe, but because I played the course later in the trip and played it twice, my feel for putting in Hill Country may have improved significantly, rendering comparisons meaningless.
The course tour from the website:
http://www.bartoncreek.com/fazio-canyons.aspx
(Some day, I would like to see course descriptions written without the marketing fluff. I cannot imagine all of that hyperbole actually helps to sell rounds.)
Several holes on the course were memorable. The par-five 7th was a strong three shot par five with a canyon crossing on the second before an iron to an uphill green. The hole ate my lunch twice but I would love another crack at it.
The par-four 10th featured a very difficult iron approach with a stream fronting the green as well as a cliff to the left. These features made a good tee shot critical on the down-hill dogleg right.
The 16th was my favorite hole on the course. Uphill and a little over 300 yards we played the hole downwind one day and my line was over the bunker left and the limestone wall on the right came into play. We played the hole into the wind the next day which made a short punch shot to a back pin with water left and an abyss behind the green a significant challenge. Here is the view from the tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX012.jpg)
Palmer Lakeside
The Palmer and Crenshaw courses at the resort are considered the lesser lights by paying customers. The Palmer course dates from 1986 and is about 35 miles away from the resort. Portions of the course sit atop high cliffs over Lake Travis. Despite 20-25 mph winds and very cold temperatures, I was pleasantly surprised by the course as it easily exceeded my very modest expectations.
Course tour: http://www.bartoncreek.com/palmer-lakeside.aspx
View from the first tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX003.jpg)
My favorite hole might have been the par five sixth. The hole was reachable in two for our group with two perfect shots, but a tree short left of the green made the choice of line for the second an interesting decision. This picture gives some sense of the second shot:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX005.jpg)
The most memorable hole on the course is the par three 14th. The hole is not so memorable for the shot – 120-140 yards to a reasonable sized green with modest contours. However, the setting is spectacular – perched on a very high cliff above Lake Travis:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX008.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX009.jpg)
Crenshaw Cliffside
Course Tour: http://www.bartoncreek.com/crenshaw-cliffside.aspx
The Crenshaw Cliffside Course dates from 1991 and, along with the Plantation Course had the earliest opening of the Coore/Crenshaw design team. It therefore provides an interesting historical glimpse into the early approach of this duo. I have no idea how much dirt was moved to build this course – I suspect a fair amount given the severity of the terrain. Nonetheless, this course reflects the lay of the land philosophy for which they later became famous.
I would love to travel in a time machine back to 1991 and hear comments from customers who had a steady stream of these types of views throughout the round:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX023.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX019.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX021.jpg)
Another big advantage of the course is that it is walkable. My sense is that walkers are almost an endangered species in this region of the country. I saw several groups hoofing it around the course – something I would have done had I only been playing 18 holes a day.
Bill McBride claims that 13 of the 18 greens slope front to back and while I did not audit his calculation, I would guess he is correct. This side view of the 6th green (465 yard par four) demonstrates the type of challenge presented throughout the course.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX014.jpg)
I really liked several of the individual holes on the course. One of my favorites was a redan-like par three 13th. 160 yards to a green with a wash in front and a cliff behind. The back left pin required that one hit the ball to the middle of the green and feed it left - a formidable task into the wind.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX015.jpg)
The course is by far the most hospitable to a wide range of playing abilities. Forced carries are generally short and nearly every green accepts a running approach. The course rating of 72.2 and a slope of 118 attests to a course that can be enjoyed by all.
There are drawbacks to this type of course.
Most significantly – it is almost impossible to determine visually the best manner to attack the course. Blind shots exist all over the place, especially off the tee. The front to back and side to side slopes of the greens are not readily apparent to the player, and even if they are generally apparent, the degree to which a ball will run or bounce sideways is almost impossible to calculate for the first time visitor.
I think many customers would not find the tee to green portion of the course interesting. The fairways are wide and the advantage of a better angle is only learned from experience and cannot be learned by eyesight.
Coore/Crenshaw's reliance on long and short par fours leaves relatively little room for challenges in the middle. I find myself wishing for a simple driver/7 iron hole. Instead, the driver, the fairway woods and the wedge get a real workout.
Finally – the 17th green is extremely severe and reminded me of the 11th at Penard – with a very narrow green and a bank behind that allowed bank shots onto the green. The crucial difference is that the 17th at this course is fronted by a canyon and a bank shot can easily feed back into the hazard if the bounce is too strong.
Nonetheless, I preferred the Crenshaw course over the others by a pretty wide margin. The width was an enjoyable antidote to the Fazio courses. It was nice to have a poorly struck iron run along the ground rather than go in water. The putting and chipping around the greens was terrific fun and we learned as we went along. We played the course twice in one day and our group scored significantly better the second time around.
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It was nice to have a poorly struck iron run along the ground rather than go in water.
Too bad Joe Hancock didn't say this. I'd have myself a new signature line.
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Jason, I have played all the Barton creek courses a number of times and agree with you that the Crenshaw Cliffside course is by far the most interesting and fun to play. Ironically it's the easiest to get on of the close in courses because the Fazio courses get all the attention. Both are Top 25 in Texas with the Crenshaw course nowhere to be found. The Palmer course gets little love but I liked it.
Right on about the BC ripoff. I hope you made it to Chuy's for the Tex-Mex.
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Right on about the BC ripoff. I hope you made it to Chuy's for the Tex-Mex.
Bill - thanks for the tip - I went to two different Chuy's - one was a small mexican place that I visited with a friend of mine from the area. The other was Chuy's Hula Hut (or something like that) which was a crowded tourist spot on the river. Both were solid restaurants although I liked the more local spot a bit better.
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We go to the local place. Nobody does it better. The Hula Hut is too busy. And southside is closer to the South Congress juke joints! Austin is fun!
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Jason,
I'm curious what you thought of #8 on Fazio Foothills (downhill dogleg left-to-right par 5). It's been a few years since I played there but I remember a very blind and confusing second shot if you are on the right side of the fairway (or rough). Did this hole stand out to you at all?
Mark
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Jason,
I'm curious what you thought of #8 on Fazio Foothills (downhill dogleg left-to-right par 5). It's been a few years since I played there but I remember a very blind and confusing second shot if you are on the right side of the fairway (or rough). Did this hole stand out to you at all?
Mark
Mark, let me offer one opinion based on several plays: it's not a good hole, awkward, but if you keep your wits about you and don't get greedy, you can make a par and move on to the scenic short par 3 that follows.
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Jason,
I'm curious what you thought of #8 on Fazio Foothills (downhill dogleg left-to-right par 5). It's been a few years since I played there but I remember a very blind and confusing second shot if you are on the right side of the fairway (or rough). Did this hole stand out to you at all?
Mark
Mark:
I cannot remember the hole very well, even after checking the yardage book and the pictures on Bing. I hit a good tee shot down the left side and remember deciding that I did not have the shot to hit the green in two. After that, I do not remember a thing.
The par five that stood out to me as one I could not decide whether I liked it or not was the 18th on the Fazio Canyons course. The idea of the design is to pressure a layup by forcing one to hit over bunkers to a petty narrow landing area. If one does not take on that risk, the wedge into the green is over a tree that is almost impossible to carry and get close to a front pin. That hole may be brilliant or stupid but I would need to play it ten times to decide.
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... I was too busy enjoying good company, trying to digest giant ribs ...
Ya eat brisket in Texas, son!
As for the time machine, I don't think you need to go back to 1991 to hear interesting comments from golfers facing the unusual. Curious about the views of the other members of your long time foursome on how they ranked the four?
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... I was too busy enjoying good company, trying to digest giant ribs ...
Ya eat brisket in Texas, son!
As for the time machine, I don't think you need to go back to 1991 to hear interesting comments from golfers facing the unusual. Curious about the views of the other members of your long time foursome on how they ranked the four?
I will ask them. They largely make fun of me for my interest in architecture so they would definitely be more representative of the general golf population.
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Cliffside is a fun course, it presents many more options and is more fun when playing with average players. Both Fazio courses are enjoyable but pretty tough. Years ago I played Foothill with my Dad, a 30 handicapper, he said he enjoyed the course for the views but got beat up by it. 8 Is a goofy hole to me, you feel like you are playing in a rainforest. Lakeside is solid but if I am over that way I'll go play Austin Golf Club. That's just me.
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Lakeside is solid but if I am over that way I'll go play Austin Golf Club. That's just me.
McBride made the same suggestion. Given our group would be reverting to our younger selves, I thought it best not to sully a private club with our presence.
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Lakeside is solid but if I am over that way I'll go play Austin Golf Club. That's just me.
McBride made the same suggestion. Given our group would be reverting to our younger selves, I thought it best not to sully a private club with our presence.
McBride is a smart man, I'm a younger, more in your face version of him.
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In response to Tom's question above, I asked my playing partners how they ranked the courses and why. One guy never responded. The other two responses don't really answer the question. I don't believe they think about courses in terms of rankings. A nice reminder that the general golf public sees the game differently than most of us do:
From Todd:
Any analysis from me beyond "Fazio Canyons was very pretty" and "the Crenshaw course had huge fairways and very tough greens" would be useless to your knowledgeable discussion group. But I do note that the "good company" reference hurts your credibility overall.
From Dan:
I'm certainly no authority on golf courses so I don't think my opinion is worth much, but here goes. . . I agree with Todd that the Fazio courses were more striking, although the Palmer course had it's share of visually impressive holes. I was lucky enough to be hitting the ball well off the tee, so I didn't feel like the Fazio courses were excessively narrow. I think some of the longer holes played considerably shorter because of the hills and the roll you could get. With a few more rounds you could get a better sense of where to place your shot to get a longer roll and avoid trouble.
On the other hand, I thought that the Fazio greens were harder to read, both in terms of speed and direction (this is probably just because my short game stinks). However, I thought the Crenshaw greens were easier to play-- they seemed faster but more consistent and easier to read.
In my opinion The Foothills was the prettiest course, Palmer had a few spectacular views, but Crenshaw was probably the most fun to play -- given my ability.
Overall, I thought all the courses were in good shape-- especially since we were out of season. I don't remember having a bad lie in the fairway or any ground under repair. There were few divots and the greens seemed to hold good shots. Moreover, I don't recall any throw away or gimmicky holes on any of the courses. Now I am losing perspective -- as I return to the snow, cold and piles of work -- the courses seem like Augusta and Pebble Beach.
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On Friday evening, I looked around the house and realized that the kids had plans all weekend, my wife wanted to watch movies on the Lifetime Channel and Jeff Shelman posted an interest in driving to Des Moines to play golf on Saturday. Thus - at about 8pm, Jeff and I made plans to meet at 7:30am and drive the 3-1/2 hours to sneak in an early round of mud golf.
It is very pleasurable to see the snow gradually melt away as one drives South. Our destination was Waveland golf course, located about 6 blocks from where I grew up and the venue for the Des Moines City Amatuer.
Waveland has been open since mid-February this year but the weather has not warmed up to the point of allowing grass to grow. Thus, conditions were more than a bit rough. Nonetheless, the course is holds many fond memories for me and a colorful history as a spot for hustlers (at least when I was a kid). One of the participants was "featured" in this 1965 Sports Illustrated article entitled "The Case of the Too Hot Golfer:"
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077921/index.htm
(I have linked this before)
There was no hustling to be done between Jeff and I. We played for fun and neither of us would have won a nickel from anyone with a pulse. Jeff took a few pictures of the course which I hope he will add to this thread.
It felt great to play hookey for a day from a still lingering winter in Minnesota.
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My wife and kids eagerly proposed a spring break trip to the Galapagos Islands. The thought of travelling 1/4 of the way around the world and spending a fortune to look at tortoise did not strike me as the best opportunity to sneak in golf. I ruminated about this for a few days and came up with the brilliant response - McKinley (my son) will be in the middle of tennis tryouts and needs to hone his tennis game!
The ploy worked brilliantly. Instead we travelled 1/4 of the way around the world and spent a fortune to visit Kapalua. While I cannot recommend this approach from a value perspective, I can recommend it as a pretty easy way to sneak a few rounds into a family vacation while minimizing familial repercussions. I am still in the doghouse for our family trip to Australia five years ago. My wife Claire showed no interest in setting the itinerary and left it to me. Of course, our itinerary consisted of Tasmania, Melbourne and Sydney. About half way through the trip Claire started to question why we were not seeing the great barrier reef.
I think I am in better marital shape this time around.
I think the pictures are more interesting than my commentary, although I will say this about the Plantation Course - Anyone who thinks width and greens that allow ground game approaches automatically results in a course that is playable for all should spend a little time listening to players after their round at the Plantation Course. They enjoy the scenery, but their games and ball supplies have been beaten to a pulp.
Here are a few views:
1 Tee
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010270.jpg)
1 Green
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010262-1.jpg)
2 Green from left - wind and slope take ball towards the ocean
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010264.jpg)
This is the view most average golfers get of the course. I have become convinced it is not possible to build a course wide enough to accommodate the wild player:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010265.jpg)
7 Green?
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010267.jpg)
11 Green - last par three on the course
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010272.jpg)
Grudge match on 18 Tee. My next trip is to Weight Watchers.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010278.jpg)
Preparing to hit a fat shot short and right on 18:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010282.jpg)
My son in one of the few spots where he did not hit it in the junk. McKinley plays tennis, not golf. Consequently he can hit the ball a mile. He drove it to upslope in front of the green on 3 - 250 yards into the wind uphill. On 7 the cart indicated he hit it 310 off the tee downwind and downhill.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010286.jpg)
I am no Aidan. This picture did not work at all:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010285.jpg)
Kaanapali is no Plantation course. The best angle into the green is to the left of this bunker, which is to the left of the fairway an in play on an adjoining hole.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010288.jpg)
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Anyone visiting Hawaii should purchase the book "Maui Revealed." The Guidebook is produced by a local couple and provide frank and easy to read commentary on the tourist attractions. The golf course reviews are very informative. They are written from a non-GCA perspective and I disagree with some of his conclusions but his description of Kaanapali is spot on - "the primary advantage of this course is its location. [disclaimer - quote is from memory]"
As you can guess from my last post, my view of the Kaanapali course is less than stellar. I would consider the course a perfectly fine municipal course - wide open, good condition, some interesting greens, an extremely awkward routing that appears to have been jumbled around a bit for the purpose of accomodating some additional housing. The range is terrible - mats and squishy range balls.
The course would be perfectly acceptable at $30 or $50 dollars, but at over $200 I would suggest two twilight rounds at the Plantation Course ($138 each) is much better value for your money.
On a positive note - I did win my match 6 & 5 and thereby earned breakfast after our early morning round. My playing companion hit his golf ball supply into the water on 18 attempting a 30 yard hook around a palm tree over water to a cape type green. His final attempt appeared to hit dry land although by that point he could not verify whether or not the ball was his because he had hit so many.
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Jason Topp, rockin' the Trues at Kapalua!
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010282.jpg)
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Jason Topp, rockin' the Trues at Kapalua!
They look a bit like clown shoes but they really are comfortable on my toes which tend to hurt in normal shoes.
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This is the view most average golfers get of the course. I have become convinced it is not possible to build a course wide enough to accommodate the wild player:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010265.jpg)
Grudge match on 18 Tee. My next trip is to Weight Watchers.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010278.jpg)
Two great comments about width -- though, as one who knows, I'd say: Situps are cheaper!
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Jason Topp, rockin' the Trues at Kapalua!
They look a bit like clown shoes but they really are comfortable on my toes which tend to hurt in normal shoes.
Me too. The blister problems that started in Dornoch in June 2008 are history. I have a pair of the white clown shoes and a pair of the black/white clown saddle shoes and alternate them. No more Mr. Blister!
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Two great comments about width -- though, as one who knows, I'd say: Situps are cheaper!
Lifetime member so it is free (as long as I am within a specified weight range which to my shock I was).
Golf is the best weight loss tool in my arsenal. Walking and carrying adds about 50% to the amount one can eat in a day. Cartball - not so helpful.
In Hawaii, I was eating a lot - apparently enough to more than offset 2 hours of tennis a day, chasing teenage kids to the point of exhaustion and endless walks to the car because I was too cheap to spend $17 a day to wait for some guy to get it for me.
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Anyone visiting Hawaii should purchase the book "Maui Revealed." ...
Thumbs up! A lot of the content is available on line. Really cool is an interactive map where pretty much every resort & condo complex is listed and you can get a description and see an aerial view of each property.
I found the restaurant reviews to be fairly spot on.
...Kaanapali ... The course would be perfectly acceptable at $30 or $50 dollars, but at over $200 I would suggest two twilight rounds at the Plantation Course ($138 each) is much better value for your money.
The way I reconciled it - if I was going to pay $200, what's another $95? ;D
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Anyone visiting Hawaii should purchase the book "Maui Revealed." ...
Thumbs up! A lot of the content is available on line. Really cool is an interactive map where pretty much every resort & condo complex is listed and you can get a description and see an aerial view of each property.
I found the restaurant reviews to be fairly spot on.
I agree and I thought the golf course reviews were good, just not necessarily my perspective. He advises against the Plantation Course because of how badly it beats up the average golfer. He is correct about the beating up part and the exposure to the wind.
I should add that they have books for all the major Islands and I have found their suggestions to be quite good for both the Big Island and Kaui'i. We did motorized hang gliding this time because the author is an enthusiast and I strongly recommend that option over a helicopter tour. Just don't leave late and be forced to drive as quickly as possible on the road to Hana.
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... motorized hang gliding ...
My belly -- larger than yours, as you know -- is doing loop-de-loops at those words.
Not that I wouldn't do it, if someone could calm me down....
Tell us about it (if you'd care to).
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I have not updated this thread in awhile. In part it is because I have not travelled for golf much but also it is because I have a hard time focusing on photography while playing golf.
My focus has been on playing at home. One fun event a friend organized was to get two guys from four clubs in Minneapolis - Oak Ridge, Spring Hill, Minikahda and Woodhill and we are rotating courses approximately every other week and playing very informal competitions. Spring Hill is the one course remaining on the rotation.
I had not played Minikahda since its restoration several years ago and the course has been the hilight of the summer so far. The course has improved dramatically with the reduction in trees and the wild appearance of long fescue around bunkers. While there I met Jeff Johnson, their superintendant who is undertaking a natural transformation in an effort to reduce poa annua. The greens at the course are in fantastic shape which is a rarity in the Twin Cities this year. Jeff writes a terrific blog for his members which you can see here. http://minikahdagrounds.blogspot.com/
I also play a ton of evening golf at Oak Ridge. Nothing is more pleasurable than briskly walking a wonderful course with good friends in 3 hours with the shadows growing long. This photo is from behind our 15th green while racing sunset to finish the round:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Oak%20Ridge/15thGreenintheevening.jpg)
I've also played a fair amount at Bunker Hills which for me is the ideal for Municipal golf. The design of the course is very pedestrian but the course sits on terrific sandy soil. The course also has a terrific Men's club that conducts formal competitions and fills the tee sheet weekend mornings when no formal competition takes place. http://bhmc.org/home.asp
One of my favorite holes is the 5th on the North Nine, which is a par four of 425 yards or so that just feels natural:
This picture (stolen from their website) is from the front tee. From the tees we play the line is actually over the corner of the dogleg:
(http://bhmc.org/coursePictures/5NORTHTEE.jpg)
Here is the green. The green features a big ridge seperating the left and right halves of the green that make it critical to get a long approach on the correct portion of the green.
(http://bhmc.org/coursePictures/5NORTHGREEN.jpg)
I have also been out to Windsong Farm a few times. I'm not the biggest fan of the golf course but the club is close to my ideal - small clubhouse, members that walk and are good players. I would probably be in the 3rd or 4th flight of their club championship. Here is a link to Bill Satterfield's review of the course. http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/windsongfarm.php
Fun golf is ahead:
John Mayhugh is visiting for our member guest and we will be playing some of the best in Minnesota including an outing with a number of Minnesota GCA people at Northland.
In August, I make my annual pilgrimage to the Lake Okoboji region in Iowa for the Northwest Amateur at Spencer Country Club. http://www.nwamspencer.com/
In the fall, I have trips to Mississippi, St. George, UT and to Virginia for the Dixie Cup. Life is rough!
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Very well put: " Nothing is more pleasurable than briskly walking a wonderful course with good friends in 3 hours with the shadows growing long."
You're a lucky man.
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Remember these guys?
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Florida2011070.jpg)
Apparently the parole officer gave them a break and allowed them to travel, although I suspect foul play because an Irish guy from Boston named Don accompanied them as well as 5 others on a visit to Northern Minnesota. Originally, Giant's Ridge and Northland was their destination, but thanks to the Minnesota government shutdown, the course was closed. Instead they returned to Brainerd for a fiercely contested battle for a pink jacket.
As it happened, I needed to pick my daughter up from camp and joined them for two rounds at Deacon's Lodge. Upon waking up, I jumped in my car and waited for others to hop in for a ride to the clubhouse. I looked up and saw this:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0353.jpg)
Apparently there was still some bitterness over my write up of the Bradenton round back in March.
Deacon's is a memorable course on fantastic terrain. It may be a bit severe for many resort visitors and was a bit soft this weekend, presumably for resort play. Nonetheless, I love its wild and woolly look shown in these pictures:
1st Tee
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0354-1.jpg)
2nd hole - site of a memorable triple bogey by Ben on his way to a 75:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0355.jpg)
Third green - with some quality shots from the group behind us.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0356.jpg)
Ben approaching on 8 - a short par four with a split fairway:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0358.jpg)
Ben's friend John on his way to a net 67
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0359.jpg)
It looks like Dave can play from this shot:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0360.jpg)
I am guessing this is the par 3 12th:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%20Golf%202011/DSCN0361.jpg)
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Glad u had a good time. Played deacons lodge earlier this week and it was in horrible shape. Standing water in the fairways and they were watering. Some very interesting holes but couldn't get by the horrible conditions for what was one ne of minnesota's best
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Glad u had a good time. Played deacons lodge earlier this week and it was in horrible shape. Standing water in the fairways and they were watering. Some very interesting holes but couldn't get by the horrible conditions for what was one ne of minnesota's best
Mark:
It has dried out considerably since then. Course was in great shape other than the remnants of winter kill in a couple of fairways.
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I had not played Minikahda since its restoration several years ago and the course has been the hilight of the summer so far. The course has improved dramatically with the reduction in trees and the wild appearance of long fescue around bunkers. While there I met Jeff Johnson, their superintendant who is undertaking a natural transformation in an effort to reduce poa annua. The greens at the course are in fantastic shape which is a rarity in the Twin Cities this year. Jeff writes a terrific blog for his members which you can see here. http://minikahdagrounds.blogspot.com/
Jason:
I played Minikahda yesterday for the first time and loved it. As you know, it's been really hot and dry here and most courses are playing really F&F, but I teed off an hour after the storm passed and the greens were soft and I'm sure not as fast as they could be. I'm sure when those greens get hard and fast they could drive a player's score up quickly! Anyway, I thought the course was a lot of fun and features an amazing set of greens. I saw a few pictures after the round of the course pre-renovation and to say that they took a few trees out would be an understatement :)
The only question I have is how the course is being maintained, as when I commented to the member I was playing with how much I liked one of the (clearly renovated) bunkers which had the "gnarly, natural, hairy" look we tend to like around here, he said that the members hate those type of bunkers and have mowed over half of them down. It's too bad because I think the course would be much more visually attractive if all the bunkers looked like that.
The one knock I've heard on the course is that holes 15-17 on the other side of the road were "nothing" holes. Really? Because I thought the 17th was just an awesome green complex (we had a front right pin on a finger of the green) and the green on 15 was pretty neat too.
It's a pretty neat place, and the view from the back of the clubhouse isn't too bad either! 8)
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I saw a few pictures after the round of the course pre-renovation and to say that they took a few trees out would be an understatement :)
The number I heard was several thousand. And I believe it, too. I hit at least several thousand trees when I played there 40 years ago, in high school.
The one knock I've heard on the course is that holes 15-17 on the other side of the road were "nothing" holes. Really? Because I thought the 17th was just an awesome green complex (we had a front right pin on a finger of the green) and the green on 15 was pretty neat too.
I think 17 is a really good hole. I played there in the MN Senior Open last summer. Double-bogeyed it Day 1; birdied it Day 2. It's a great green, I agree -- and I can tell you from experience: It's an EASY hole that, once you have made one mistake, is a very HARD hole.
As for 15 green: I had about a 15-footer for birdie (front-leftish pin; I was behind it) in Round 1 last year that I played as a straight putt ... and the SOB broke about FOUR FEET to the right! Talked with a caddie there afterward; told him how puzzled I was by the 15th green. He said: "It broke WAY RIGHT, didn't it?" I confessed that it had. He said it fools everyone, at first.
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I saw a few pictures after the round of the course pre-renovation and to say that they took a few trees out would be an understatement :)
The number I heard was several thousand. And I believe it, too. I hit at least several thousand trees when I played there 40 years ago, in high school.
Dan, I was told they took out "about 600" trees to which I can't believe for a second seeing some old photos of the course. When playing another historically tree lined course that was recently renovated I was told that they told the members they were going to take out 500...but they ended up taking out 2x or 3x as many!
The one knock I've heard on the course is that holes 15-17 on the other side of the road were "nothing" holes. Really? Because I thought the 17th was just an awesome green complex (we had a front right pin on a finger of the green) and the green on 15 was pretty neat too.
I think 17 is a really good hole. I played there in the MN Senior Open last summer. Double-bogeyed it Day 1; birdied it Day 2. It's a great green, I agree -- and I can tell you from experience: It's an EASY hole that, once you have made one mistake, is a very HARD hole.
I can image all it would take is one chunked or thin wedge approach into one of the surrounding deep bunkers... BTW how cool are the hidden bunkers behind the green?
As for 15 green: I had about a 15-footer for birdie (front-leftish pin; I was behind it) in Round 1 last year that I played as a straight putt ... and the SOB broke about FOUR FEET to the right! Talked with a caddie there afterward; told him how puzzled I was by the 15th green. He said: "It broke WAY RIGHT, didn't it?" I confessed that it had. He said it fools everyone, at first.
My host mentioned that every year Minikahda and Interlachen play a match against each other and that the scores are almost always higher at Minikahda. I played the course on a softer low wind day so I might not be the best judge...for those that have played both: is Minikahda really harder?
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I can image all it would take is one chunked or thin wedge approach into one of the surrounding deep bunkers... BTW how cool are the hidden bunkers behind the green?
How I made an "easy" hole hard:
1. Smother drive. End up with ball in long grass, on very severe slope, at right of FW bunker left.
2. Go for green. With ball above feet by a foot or more, hit short-iron fat and come up at very front of pretty deep, pretty long front bunker. Pin just over bunker. 25(?)-yard bunker shot remaining?
3. Hit bunker shot PURE, but a bit thin. Didn't expect ball would come rocketing out of the bunker, over the green, over the supposedly cool hidden bunkers (never notice them!), down the hill to Excelsior Boulevard, OB.
4. Penalty.
5. My shot of the year, considering I was a complete mental wreck of a shambles at this point. Up on the little front-left shelf, to about 12 feet.
6. 12-foot curler, in.
Let's get out of here!
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. . .
The only question I have is how the course is being maintained, as when I commented to the member I was playing with how much I liked one of the (clearly renovated) bunkers which had the "gnarly, natural, hairy" look we tend to like around here, he said that the members hate those type of bunkers and have mowed over half of them down. It's too bad because I think the course would be much more visually attractive if all the bunkers looked like that.
. . .
The one knock I've heard on the course is that holes 15-17 on the other side of the road were "nothing" holes. Really? Because I thought the 17th was just an awesome green complex (we had a front right pin on a finger of the green) and the green on 15 was pretty neat too.
Pat - I am two minds on the long grass. I love the look but hate the playability unless it is maintained so that (1) you can find your ball and (2) the grass is kept thin enough so that some sort of shot is possible nearly all of the time and a more agressive shot is possible some of the time. It is tough to meet those standards unless the soil is perfect. It is not on most Twin Cities courses.
As to 15-17, I think each individual hole is quite good (particularly the 17th) but coming at the end of the round makes for a long string of short par fours to finish (including the disappointing 18th). I think they would work better in the middle of the round either as holes 2-4 or 6-8.
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in doing my research for the book on the history of Minnesota clubs, I was interested to find that almost all the top pros and amateurs in Minnesota in the '20s and '30s consistently listed Minikahda's #16 on their top 18 holes. I don't know if the hole has changed much since the 1930s, but back then it was held in the highest regard, and having played there last year, I thought it was the strongest of the three triangle holes -- at least in terms of green complex, if not overall strategy.
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As to 15-17, I think each individual hole is quite good (particularly the 17th) but coming at the end of the round makes for a long string of short par fours to finish (including the disappointing 18th). I think they would work better in the middle of the round either as holes 2-4 or 6-8.
Agreed. I'm make them 2-4. They're perfectly good warming-up holes.
As for the "disappointing" 18th: Granted, it's not the strongest hole on the course. It's probably not among the strongest 15 holes on the course. But I think it's a perfectly fine finishing hole -- like the 18th at The Old Course, or the 18th at North Berwick: holes that don't beat you to death as you leave, and give you a reasonable shot at walking off with a birdie.
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[As for the "disappointing" 18th: Granted, it's not the strongest hole on the course. It's probably not among the strongest 15 holes on the course. But I think it's a perfectly fine finishing hole -- like the 18th at The Old Course, or the 18th at North Berwick: holes that don't beat you to death as you leave, and give you a reasonable shot at walking off with a birdie.
I like the concept of a finishing hole that is a gamble - such as those at the Old Course and N. Berwick. This one is a center of the fairway, wedge to the green type of hole.
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I like the concept of a finishing hole that is a gamble - such as those at the Old Course and N. Berwick. This one is a center of the fairway, wedge to the green type of hole.
I haven't played any of the three often enough to know what I'm talking about, for sure -- but I don't think of either TOC or N. Berwick as a "gambling" hole.
And I wonder what the longest players do on Minikahda 18.
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in doing my research for the book on the history of Minnesota clubs, I was interested to find that almost all the top pros and amateurs in Minnesota in the '20s and '30s consistently listed Minikahda's #16 on their top 18 holes. I don't know if the hole has changed much since the 1930s, but back then it was held in the highest regard, and having played there last year, I thought it was the strongest of the three triangle holes -- at least in terms of green complex, if not overall strategy.
Rick
At Page 34 of the July 1927 Golf Illustrated, they reported that switched the hole sequence for the National Amateur won by Bobby Jones. They played the current 15, 16 and 17 as 2, 3 and 4. It is likely that that the 16th hole for the tournament is the current 13th hole. Magazine is linked below:
http://photoarchive.usga.org/mbwtemp/July%201927.pdf
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[As for the "disappointing" 18th: Granted, it's not the strongest hole on the course. It's probably not among the strongest 15 holes on the course. But I think it's a perfectly fine finishing hole -- like the 18th at The Old Course, or the 18th at North Berwick: holes that don't beat you to death as you leave, and give you a reasonable shot at walking off with a birdie.
I like the concept of a finishing hole that is a gamble - such as those at the Old Course and N. Berwick. This one is a center of the fairway, wedge to the green type of hole.
Jason and Dan:
I didn't think the 18th was that bad. I liked the uphill/blind tee shot and the "reveal" of walking up the fairway to see the clubhouse and 18th green waiting for you, with Lake Calhoun and the city skyline beyond that...not too shabby. Plus, I think the green is pretty severe even compared to the other greens on the course. Granted I played the course when it was a little soggy, but trying to force a wedge to a back left pin with a firm green with nothing but hazard behind the green is enough of a gamble for me! :)
To be honest, until you guys mentioned it, making 15-17 nos. 2-4 would be really easy to do come to think of it. That would make for an uneven set of 9's in terms of difficulty though, no? Considering the current routing's first 6 holes are a pretty easy start, the back "new" back nine would essentially include all of the course's toughest holes.
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in doing my research for the book on the history of Minnesota clubs, I was interested to find that almost all the top pros and amateurs in Minnesota in the '20s and '30s consistently listed Minikahda's #16 on their top 18 holes. I don't know if the hole has changed much since the 1930s, but back then it was held in the highest regard, and having played there last year, I thought it was the strongest of the three triangle holes -- at least in terms of green complex, if not overall strategy.
Rick
At Page 34 of the July 1927 Golf Illustrated, they reported that switched the hole sequence for the National Amateur won by Bobby Jones. They played the current 15, 16 and 17 as 2, 3 and 4. It is likely that that the 16th hole for the tournament is the current 13th hole. Magazine is linked below:
http://photoarchive.usga.org/mbwtemp/July%201927.pdf
Jason,
When was the road built?
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To be honest, until you guys mentioned it, making 15-17 nos. 2-4 would be really easy to do come to think of it. That would make for an uneven set of 9's in terms of difficulty though, no? Considering the current routing's first 6 holes are a pretty easy start, the back "new" back nine would essentially include all of the course's toughest holes.
You are correct on that point Craig, the only exception being the current number 2 which is a tough one. I would guess there would be 5-600 yards difference between the nines, par 35-37 (or 35-38 from the whites).
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Jason,
When was the road built?
I do not know but from the description in the article it looks like it was there in 1927.
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http://photoarchive.usga.org/mbwtemp/July%201927.pdf
The whole thing is a remarkable blast from the past -- with nothing more remarkable than the Spalding Kro-Flite advertisement on Page 5.
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I saw a few pictures after the round of the course pre-renovation and to say that they took a few trees out would be an understatement :)
The number I heard was several thousand. And I believe it, too. I hit at least several thousand trees when I played there 40 years ago, in high school.
Dan, I was told they took out "about 600" trees to which I can't believe for a second seeing some old photos of the course. When playing another historically tree lined course that was recently renovated I was told that they told the members they were going to take out 500...but they ended up taking out 2x or 3x as many!
The one knock I've heard on the course is that holes 15-17 on the other side of the road were "nothing" holes. Really? Because I thought the 17th was just an awesome green complex (we had a front right pin on a finger of the green) and the green on 15 was pretty neat too.
I think 17 is a really good hole. I played there in the MN Senior Open last summer. Double-bogeyed it Day 1; birdied it Day 2. It's a great green, I agree -- and I can tell you from experience: It's an EASY hole that, once you have made one mistake, is a very HARD hole.
I can image all it would take is one chunked or thin wedge approach into one of the surrounding deep bunkers... BTW how cool are the hidden bunkers behind the green?
As for 15 green: I had about a 15-footer for birdie (front-leftish pin; I was behind it) in Round 1 last year that I played as a straight putt ... and the SOB broke about FOUR FEET to the right! Talked with a caddie there afterward; told him how puzzled I was by the 15th green. He said: "It broke WAY RIGHT, didn't it?" I confessed that it had. He said it fools everyone, at first.
My host mentioned that every year Minikahda and Interlachen play a match against each other and that the scores are almost always higher at Minikahda. I played the course on a softer low wind day so I might not be the best judge...for those that have played both: is Minikahda really harder?
I think it is fairly close. Alot will depend on the tees and how the course is set up. Interlachen is a little more penal around the greens, minnikadha requires more accuracy off the tees.
From the middle tees, Minikahda is much easier IMO. For most good players, they can hit hybrid/3-wood on a majority of the par-4s if they are playing the whites.
It is probably pretty close and the higher scores are probably more of a factor of how fast the greens were playing on a given day.
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Regarding the question of which course is harder, Minikahda or Interlachen?
In the late 1980s and early 1990s (last time I lived in Minnesota), it seemed to me that they were even. The big difference was sequencing.
Both had five par 5s, some reachable - some not (like #12 ICC and #9 at Minikahda).
Both had four par 3s of various distances.
Both had five shortish par 4s.
Both had four longish par 4s.
Interlachen got its short holes out of the way early. From the members tee it was a lot of wedges. #9 and #11 are reachable par 5s. Then it gets tougher.
Minikahda was the opposite. An easy start, but #2 is one of the meatier 4s. The holes across the road were shortish and the one that preceded them played as a par 5. #18 was probably the second easiest par 4 after the starter, much different than the demanding closer down the road with just half a gren.
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in doing my research for the book on the history of Minnesota clubs, I was interested to find that almost all the top pros and amateurs in Minnesota in the '20s and '30s consistently listed Minikahda's #16 on their top 18 holes. I don't know if the hole has changed much since the 1930s, but back then it was held in the highest regard, and having played there last year, I thought it was the strongest of the three triangle holes -- at least in terms of green complex, if not overall strategy.
Rick
At Page 34 of the July 1927 Golf Illustrated, they reported that switched the hole sequence for the National Amateur won by Bobby Jones. They played the current 15, 16 and 17 as 2, 3 and 4. It is likely that that the 16th hole for the tournament is the current 13th hole. Magazine is linked below:
http://photoarchive.usga.org/mbwtemp/July%201927.pdf
My research indicated that the USGA proposed the switch, and Henry Mackall later endorsed it, but the club never did switch to that routing. The 16th hole that the local aces were praising in the 1920-1930 era was the same 16th that is played now.
I believe the road that became Excelsior Boulevard went through in the early 1900s -- after the first 9 holes were built, but before the 18-hole expansion in 1907. There have been three holes on the other side of the road as long as Minikahda was an 18-hole course.
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Well, I played Interlachen and Minikahda 7 days apart this past week. I played them both from the "middle" tees (~6400 @ M, ~6500 at ICC) with the main difference being that ICC was playing very hard and fast while Minikahda had just received a T-Storm dumping of rain prior to me teeing off (0.5 to 1" of water). With the soft greens and almost no wind, I caught Minikahda on the right day with most of my wedge approaches holding and sticking close to where they landed. I ended up shooting 73 with 4 birdies, an eagle on 14, and a double on the 7th :)
However, at ICC I shot a cool ~85 despite having a fantastic day off the tee which left me a bunch of short iron and wedge approaches into the greens. My rookie mistake at ICC was that I wasn't paying enough attention to pin locations and I was leaving myself short approaches to front pins which when rock hard were next to impossible to get close to. Add in a terrible putting day and my 7 on 18 :P and I would lean towards calling ICC the harder course.
Yet, if you played Minikahda from the back tees with the greens firm and stimping around 12? That might be a different story!
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I got the opportunity to play Spring Hill in Wayzata, Minnesota on a beautiful day this week. I did not feel comfortable taking pictures but found this link to a photo series that gives a feel for the place:
http://7minutemiles.com/v/golfing/minnesota-mz/springhill
Spring Hill is an exclusive club with less than 200 members. The Course was designed by Tom Fazio and is very challenging with holes squeezed between wetlands, hilly terrain and greens that are stoutly defended by both hazards and elevation. When I got to the first tee I realized that I did not have new golf balls in my bag, which turned out to be a good thing because I sent 2 or 3 into the water. I cannot imagine how a person who shoots 100 would get around the course.
My sense is that it would be a course I would learn to play conservatively - not my ideal form of golf. Nonetheless, the greens have plenty of interest at the high speeds they consistently maintain and the par threes provide a wide variety of shots. Par fives tend to be tee ball in play, layup wedge type holes with the risks of agressive play outweighing any advantage from agressiveness. The par fours provide a nice variety from the very long and challenging to the very short and tight. The course was soft on the day we played it, which is probably necessary to get normal golfers around the course in a reasonable time frame.
Normally, I find Fazio courses "comfortable" to play. They are easy on the eye off the tee and the best strategy for playing the hole is pretty clear to the player. Spring Hill is the opposite. One quickly learns that shots one must keep the ball in play or pay a steep price. Even if one reaches the green, placing the ball in the wrong spot makes par a very diffcult task.
Spring Hill is a course that forces a player to learn the whether he can truly pull off shots consistently with disaster lurking. Such a challenge is rare in Minnesota and I hope I get the chance to return again.
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Jason,
I have played Spring Hill just once, but I really liked the holes on the south side of the road more than those on the north side of the road.
Things seemed especially squeezed over there.
And the amazing thing about the place is that my understanding is that they've cleaned up a bunch of growth from when it opened and it isn't as penal.
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Jason,
I have played Spring Hill just once, but I really liked the holes on the south side of the road more than those on the north side of the road.
Things seemed especially squeezed over there.
And the amazing thing about the place is that my understanding is that they've cleaned up a bunch of growth from when it opened and it isn't as penal.
I think I agree with both of your observations although I would say the terrain on the south side is pretty severe. I assume they cleared out the brush under the trees because our group had several playable shots from the trees in areas that look like they would naturally be brush.
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Rather than visit somewhere else this summer, I invited John Mayhugh to visit Minnesota to play in our member guest. Picking up on the theme from our Wales trip for the Buda last year, we created an itinerary that included some of Minnesota’s most highly regarded courses as well as a sampler of quirk that I knew John would enjoy.
Unfortunately, the weather in Minnesota has been poor for golf courses this year. Significant winter kill inflicted damage in many areas. A cold wet spring kept soils saturated and cold, preventing normal recovery to the grass.
The new puppy did not mind as she prepped the house and back yard for John’s arrival:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/sophie2.jpg)
After the wet rainy spring, the weather turned extremely hot and humid for this area. On the day of John’s arrival, Minneapolis set a record for the highest recorded dewpoint.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/updraft/archive/2011/07/twin_cities_dew_point_record_c.shtml
I enjoyed that weather by playing a golf match and getting trounced on the afternoon of John's arrival. Clearly, my game was set for the onslaught to come.
John and I drove up to Duluth on Tuesday evening. Some think of that area of the country as the home of Bob Dylan:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Duluth-DylanWay-1.jpg)
John and I thought of the area in terms of people slurring their speech while arguing about something indecipherable at the hotel bar. Some may also think of the fresh cool breeze blowing off Lake Superior. A more powerful memory came from with the strong smell of chlorine wafting out of the indoor hotel pool.
Cleansed with the sanitized air, we made our way to Northland County Club. Our round consisted of a mini-GCA outing that included Ben Kodadek, Morgan Clawson, Dan Kelly and our host Chris Tritibaugh, superintendant at Northland.
Northland is one of my favorite places to visit in Minnesota. It is a challenging course, built on a hillside overlooking Lake Superior. The greens have little internal contour but are confounding as one constantly needs to gauge how much putts break in the opposite direction than they appear to break. Despite a number of recent thunderstorms, Chris Tritibaugh had many of the fairways surprisingly firm, as several drives bounced like a superball.
Northland’s routing is also outstanding given the severe slope on the property. After a downhill opener, you play two holes straight up the hill and thereby get most of the severe climbing out of the way early. The best holes are in the middle of the course and then you get the fun of playing severely downhill holes with views of Lake Superior as a background. You finish with a classic Donald Ross long par four to a severely sloped green.Chris explained that members were initially unhappy with the routing because the 9th hole did not return to the clubhouse. They asked Ross to take a second look. Ross did and told them the routing needed to stay as is. My legs thank him.
Early in the day, an easterly breeze kept the temperature comfortable and I expressed optimism that we were in for a pleasant day. Chris killed those thoughts by informing me that the temperature was normally about 60 degrees with such a wind off the 42 degree water. Chris proved to be correct and our group resembled a team of mules after a hard day in the field when the round finished.
Here are a few pictures of the course that John took and kindly shared with me:
Approach to 13
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Northland13approach.jpg)
10 looking back
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Northland10lookingBack.jpg?t=1312168316)
Chris showed he was an experienced superintendant. Near the clubhouse he hit a wide variety of crooked shots and played volleyball with chip shots over the greens. At the far end of the course he made 3 birdies in a four hole stretch. He returned to chopping the ball around the green for the closing holes.
Kodadek approaching 18. He either killed a drive or dumped one in the water on this uphill hole of over 400 yards:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Kodadekapproachingon18.jpg)
Northland provided a memorable first stop in our jorney. After a tour of the clubhouse and an opportunity to review a master plan for changes considered at the course, Kodadek, Kelly, Mayhugh and I got in the car for a two hour drive to Big Fish in Hayward, WI.
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Killed the drive.
Unfortunately, it was my second tee ball. The first came to rest at the mid-point of the NCC clubhouse and Lake Superior.
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So I plan a trip to Minnesota to cool off for a few days this summer. It did not work out that way at all, with some of the highest humidity I've experienced this year. Northland's uphill holes were a really tough walk in the conditions, especially holes like 3 (370 yards along with 100 feet of climbing) and 10 (400 yards that felt like 500). Looking at some of my photos, I'm disappointed to see that they do nothing to capture the slopes.
In addition to uphill & downhill, Ross really took advantage of side slopes as well.
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After our tour of the Northland clubhouse, John, Dan Kelly, Ben Kodadek and I jumped in the car and raced to Big Fish in Hayward Wisconsin to squeeze in a round before dark. Dan made the mistake of trying to follow me. I immediately tried to help him out with last second lane changes and by shooting through yellow lights to test Dan’s driving skill. The test for Dan became more complicated when, due to road construction, the route through Superior, Wisconsin resembled the rout of a cheap rollercoaster at a county fair.
Somehow we arrived at Big Fish and were greeted with hot air that could cure a sore throat if one just sucked it in through a straw. Because of the heat and because of recent massive rains, Big Fish was soggy and the golf course was empty. We negotiated a match between Dan and I v. John and Ben. Fortunately for my side, Ben decided to employ the strategy of missing 50 yard wide fairways by 50 yards. Big Fish is a wide course, but Ben proved that there is not enough width to constrain the wayward golfer.
The short 9th:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Bigfish9.jpg)
The green at the short par five 13th:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Bigfish13-approach.jpg)
I employed a unique strategy at the 13th. After a drive in the fairway, I hit out of turn (as Mayhugh was attempting to hit) and smothered a duck hook. The hook slammed into the sidehill, bounced right, ran through the rough at one of the lowest points on the course and wound up a foot or two from the hole. This photo looking back shows the brilliance of the strategy:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Bigfish13lookingback.jpg)
Mayhugh made some noise about forcing me to replay the shot. I suggested the walk from Hayward to Eden Prairie was long and the biting insects were fierce. Not a hollow threat given the drive to Northland the night before sounded like we were driving through a hail storm.
Picture of 17 showing the rolling nature of the land on the back 9:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Bigfish17approach-1.jpg)
After our match we had a 3 hour drive in which bugs and deer provided ample obstacles. I got to introduce John to my wife and kids accompanied by the smell of sweat, golf, insects, bug spray and Culvers. They knew those smells and suggested a shower.
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Town & Country is squeezed into 100 acres on the banks of the Mississippi in St. Paul. Given John’s love of quirky courses in the UK, I knew this course was a no-brainer for our itinerary.
A simple look at the scorecard tells you Town & Country is unique:
4 (324) ,3(110), 3 (163), 5 (490),4 (354), 4 (468), 4 (354), 4 (366), 4 (414) Out= par 35 (3026)
4 (377), 3 (186), 5 (533), 4 (283), 14 (230), 15 (552), 16 (521), 17 (522), 18 (170) In = par 37 (3355);
Total = par 72 (6400).
The numbers alone are interesting. You have two par threes early in a row early in the round. After 6 par fours in a row from 5-10 you only have one left – the 13th – and that is of the driveable variety. You finish with three par fives in a row and a par three. As a kicker, the yardage listed for the front and back nines does not equal the total yardage listed for the course.
Numbers alone do not come close to giving a sense of Town & Country. Many of the holes make no logical sense but are a hoot to play.
The first tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TCFirstTee.jpg)
Looking back at the 110 yard uphill 2nd. Front pin is difficult because of green slopes. I think I was in a better position hitting this chip than John was on the middle of the green:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TCToppchipson2.jpg)
The 4th hole plays down to a valley and then back up with a blind second on a short par five:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC4Tee.jpg)
The 5th is a down and back up 350 yard par 4 with a steeply sloped back to front green. I have seen putts go back down the hill when the greens are crispy. It looks like they added some rough to prevent that experience:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC5lookingback.jpg)
The distance equation changes abruptly on the 468 yard par four 6th. A good drive leaves you this view for your second. The challenge lies not only in guessing the line and hitting the ball hard enough to reach the green. You also need to hit your second high enough to clear the slope:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC6approach.jpg)
This is the view Mayhugh had for his second at the 415 yard 9th.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TCMahughsteeshot.jpg)
I watched his shot from this vantage point. I swear I heard John complaining a bit as his shot flew in the air. It landed 30 yards short of the green ran left and disappeared. Needless to say he won the hole.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC9appproach.jpg)
The 10th is one of the best on the course – 377 yards to a green benched into a hillside. 75% of balls that hit the hill right of the green stay there.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC10approach.jpg)
A closer view of the green:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC10Green.jpg)
The 15th is the first of three par fives in a row. Even though the hole is 552 yards long, a ball that gets past the crest of the hill 100 yards short of the green has a chance to get there. Wedge shots are also interesting because you need to either choose to fly it down or use the slope. Oblivion lurks behind the green if you are too aggressive or wind up hitting a shot in between those options:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC15lookingback.jpg)
The par 3 finisher. Like the finish at the PGA tour event last weekend, such a hole can prove to be a dramatic method for deciding a match.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC18.jpg)
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Our cat offers congratulations to John:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/IMG_1626.jpg)
The puppy did not seem so impressed:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Sophie.jpg)
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Jason, those were exceptional photos of Town & Country -- among the best I've seen, and very representative of the course, which I find extremely fun to play.
The photo of the par-3 18th hole does suggest an extremely narrow chute off the tee, however, and it's really not the case. I had to look closely to be sure it was the 18th. The hole plays about 145 yards, and it's not nearly as claustrophobic as this photo makes it seem:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/TC18.jpg)
The green is the toughest part of the hole -- very steep from back to front, and very, very fast.
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Rick. You are right about 18. I would normally edit the photo to get a better representation but was too lazy this time.
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Our cat offers congratulations to John:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/IMG_1626.jpg)
The puppy did not seem so impressed:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Sophie.jpg)
So Minnesotan!
I flew into MSP a couple weeks back and was amazed at how many courses I could see from the landing pattern. One looked expansive and modern, in beautiful condition (they all looked lush in comparison to drought-strickenTexas); I suspect it was Hazeltine. I was surprised to see several courses with mostly oval greens.
Seeing these wonderful pictorials and living vicariously through the travels of Mssrs. Mayhugh and Topp, it occurs to me that rather than having spent so much time studying on the Scarlet course at Ohio State, I might have invested a bit more of it in the classroom. Great stuff!
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White Bear Yacht Club
After our round at Town & Country, John and I made our way to the north metro to play White Bear Yacht Club. I had never played White Bear before and eagerly looked forward to the course. I suggested we walk, which proved to be a significant task in mid 90’s heat and high humidity. We grabbed a cart after 9.
At 6471 yards the course provided ample challenge in the Minnesota State Am that finished the day before we played. I expected the greens to be wild and was a bit disappointed early in the round to find them relatively docile. Nonetheless the tee to green contours made the opening holes interesting and the greens got wilder as the round went on.
Many of these pictures will be from a wonderful photo gallery of Minnesota golf I found on this website and obtained permission to post here: http://7minutemiles.com/v/golfing)
The First Tee (405 yards par 4):
(http://7minutemiles.com/gallery2/d/38079-2/WBYC+3.jpg)
The 133 yard 3rd:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC3green.jpg)
3rd Green with 552 yard 4th in the background:
(http://7minutemiles.com/gallery2/d/38091-2/WBYC+33.jpg)
The first tee shot over a road on the 441 yard 5th. I have played other courses with roads but never one with as much heavy traffic as this one.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC5tee.jpg)
The 9th is a wonderful 514 yard par 5.
From 200 yards or so:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC92nd.jpg)
Looking back to 9th green from the clubhouse:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC9lookingback.jpg)
Side view of the 11th green – a 183 yard par 3 with a wild slope on the right side:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC11fromside.jpg)
12 Tee (383 par 4) – 2nd road crossing. This picture makes it look more daunting than it is. However a very low tee shot could easily nail a truck.
(http://7minutemiles.com/gallery2/d/37809-2/WBYC+103.jpg)
Approaching 12:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC12approach.jpg)
Looking back on 12 – substantial front to back slope on the green:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC12lookingback.jpg)
Green on 14
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC13fromsideofgreen.jpg)
15th green (423 par 4). There is a hump in the middle of this green so shots actually kick right to this pin. Also the shot is blind for most:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/WBYC15Green.jpg)
Tee shot on 18 (343 par 4)
(http://7minutemiles.com/gallery2/d/38007-2/WBYC+163.jpg)
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Sorry about the screwed up pictures. I will fix later today. - DONE
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Jason,
Thanks for sharing the WBYC pictures. I believe I played it the same week as you. I think it is worth another topic with some discussion from Mr. Doak. Our host indicated that Tom Doak generally comes back once a year to WBYC for various reasons.
First off, I feel like WBYC is one of my favorite and most interesting courses I have ever played. I had some discussion with another GCA'er about the wild fairways but what I don't understand is how lower budget courses (i.e. Muni's) can't have the same interesting features found on the greens at WBYC. What I also loved was the fact that at approximately 6500 yards, driver is still very necessary for longer hitters on many holes. The yardage is deceiving with two par 3's at 130ish and some 500 yard par 5's.
Why can't a deceiving approach like #9 be built where it looks like you can run the ball right to left when in fact it goes the other way creating a really fun pitch back to the green.
Why can't greens like #12 be built - closely mown approaches with a green sloping away from the fairway pretty severely, calling for a delicately played shot landing short of the green.
Why can't greens be built like #14 where from the fairway it looks like a two tiered green perpendicular to the player when in fact it is at nearly a 45 degree angle making the approach really fun, and very appropriate for a 340ish par 4.
As with most any great golf course, the pictures can't capture the true contours.
I found WBYC to be fascinating and left wondering and wishing that new lower budget public courses in the future could pay the same amount of attention to detail around the greens and surrounds. We get to see it at so many of the great privates and upper scale publics, but it would be nice to see some modest places in the future use some of the same awesome features.
Thanks for sharing
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Why can't a deceiving approach like #9 be built where it looks like you can run the ball right to left when in fact it goes the other way creating a really fun pitch back to the green.
9 only rolls right if you can fly it that far!
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Jason,
Very good selection of holes at WBYC. One correction: the green you referred to as the 13th is actually the 14th. A huge spine running through that green. Really a fascinating set of greens at White Bear. Not only some extreme contours, but the variety hole to hole is wonderful - none of the greens seem anything like any of the others.
My favorite was probably the front to back slope on the 12th.
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More WBYC pics here, if anyone's interested: http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/ (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/)
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With the passage of time, the heat and the deterioration of our games, the trip was starting to become a blur by the time John and I visited Minikahda. John and I played with a couple of other visitors and played from the back tees which for me meant I had a nice contrast to playing the middle tees a month before. For John it meant he was hitting longer irons into closely guarded greens. Both of us attacked without much success.
Minikahda is a special place and here are a few pictures taken by John:
11 Green - par 3 of 180 yards
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/MKDA11Green.jpg)
13 Green (par 5 574 yards) - the background was surrounded by trees prior to the work on the course 5-10 years ago:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/MKDA13Green.jpg)
13 from behind. The layup presents a number of interesting options given the slopes and the small creek 75 yards short of the green.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/MKDA13LookingBack.jpg)
15 green (391 yard par 4). The bunker to the left looks intimidating from the fairway but is well short of the green. Note the differing mowing patterns near the bunkers. As I understand it, long grass has been removed over time because of member complaints. I love the way the long grass looks but understand the frustration of playing from it.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/MKDA15Green.jpg)
18 green with a view of Lake Calhoun opened up in the background. Once on the green, the view of downtown appears:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/MKDA18Green.jpg)
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A couple of detail pictures by John:
You can imagine taking your horse carriage to this entrance at the clubhouse:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/MKDAClubhouse.jpg)
Plaque near the first tee recognizing Chick Evans' US Open Victory:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/MKDAEvansPlaque.jpg)
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Jason, great pics. Minikahda is most definitely a special place. I absolutely love the look of the long grass. I wish they would keep it everywhere on the course.
I could be in the minority, but I have always felt like #13 is one of the best par 5's anywhere. For a long hitter, it is reachable in two but has a blind 2nd shot to a green fronted by a creek. It is a difficult but fair layup. And not a gimme 3rd with that green and the contouring. The bunkering in the fairway off of the drive is great and the width is appropriate for the hole. I just love it. It is always at the top of my mind when I think of great par 5's.
Your thoughts or anyone else?
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I could be in the minority, but I have always felt like #13 is one of the best par 5's anywhere. For a long hitter, it is reachable in two but has a blind 2nd shot to a green fronted by a creek. It is a difficult but fair layup. And not a gimme 3rd with that green and the contouring. The bunkering in the fairway off of the drive is great and the width is appropriate for the hole. I just love it. It is always at the top of my mind when I think of great par 5's.
Shane:
When I think of Minikahda, the 13th is the first hole that comes to mind. The green complex, the slope and the creek make the 2nd shot interesting for a wide variety of players and the creek is so small that it is not overly penal for the beginner. The fairway bunkers added in the last 10 years or so makes the tee shot much more interesting and the tree removal makes the green a much more pleasant place to be compared to the feeling of being in a swamp that existed ten years ago.
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Jason:
Thanks for posting pictures from your round at Minikahda. I played there earlier in July this year and enjoyed my round a lot. Overall the course is nearly the ideal "club" course in that it's very playable for most golfers from the middle tees, while being a tough test from the back tees...all while being interesting regardless of the tees chosen as the green complexes are very good.
As much as I liked the 13th hole, I was just as big of a fan of the 12th. As I said earlier in this thread I also think the 3 holes on the other side of the road are actually underrated as I've heard they were nothing holes, but I found them to be fun and feature a couple really good greens.
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The green complex, the slope and the creek make the 2nd shot interesting for a wide variety of players and the creek is so small that it is not overly penal for the beginner.
Are crossing-the-creek/laying-up-before-the-creek 2nd shots on par-5s a Ross specialty?
Two of those at Northland -- right?
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The green complex, the slope and the creek make the 2nd shot interesting for a wide variety of players and the creek is so small that it is not overly penal for the beginner.
Are crossing-the-creek/laying-up-before-the-creek 2nd shots on par-5s a Ross specialty?
Two of those at Northland -- right?
Good question. I do not remember any holes fitting that description at other Ross courses I have played.
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Jason,
I've played Minikahda several times both before and after Ron Prichard's restoration and it is indeed a very fine course. I actually think the 9th hole is the best par 5 on the course. It is reachable but if you're short the skyline green is very hard to hit and really a challenge to putt if you're above the hole. The par 3s are a bit inconsistent, The 3rd is absolutely outstanding, a beautiful classic Ross green site, and the 11th is really excellent too; the 6th and 8th are a bit of a letdown, however. The stretch of 9-13 is terrific and the best part of the course. The work that Ron Prichard did (and the club let him do--with 700+ trees removed) to rework the bunkering and restore/expand the greens to their original sizes (eg 10, 12 and 13) was great. Ross's use of the bisecting ridges on holes like 4-5 was really interesting. I'm not a fan of the 15th-17th holes across the road--not part of the original Ross design--in part because the topography is so flat and different from the main part of the course.
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The green complex, the slope and the creek make the 2nd shot interesting for a wide variety of players and the creek is so small that it is not overly penal for the beginner.
Are crossing-the-creek/laying-up-before-the-creek 2nd shots on par-5s a Ross specialty?
Two of those at Northland -- right?
The 4th at Northland features this dilemna for the shorter driver of the ball today. Dan, the creek on the 11th comes into play off the tee for most players depending on the wind and is the primary consideration in club selection for the drive. I don't recall many attempts at carrying the creek on 11 but with todays balls and clubs the flat bellys probably give it a go.
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I'm not a fan of the 15th-17th holes across the road--not part of the original Ross design--in part because the topography is so flat and different from the main part of the course.
Doug --
Rick Shefchik can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you will learn from his upcoming book that those three holes -- or, at least, three holes on that flat ground -- PREDATE Ross's arrival on the scene, and were part of the original, 1899, Robert Foulis/Willie Watson nine.
Dan
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Oak Ridge
I can now report that running around playing 36 holes a day in high heat and humidity is not the best way to get ready for your club’s member guest. John and I made the short drive from Minikahda to Oak Ridge and more than justified our handicaps. Although our play was generally mediocre, our Waterloo came in alternate shot when we turned a decent nine into a 43 by finishing double/triple on the 17th and 18th. Both scores represented a true team effort.
If you want a full discussion of Oak Ridge, check out my In my Opinion Piece. For this thread, I thought I include some pictures taken in September, 2005 that do not show much about how the course plays but reflect the serene setting of the course in the evening.
1 green from 18 tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Oak%20Ridge/DH000099.jpg)
Approach to the 485 yard par five 5th:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Oak%20Ridge/DH000019.jpg)
12 green from 17 tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Oak%20Ridge/DH000085.jpg)
14 green from left:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Oak%20Ridge/DH000073.jpg)
16 green from 17 tee:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Oak%20Ridge/DH000087.jpg)
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I'm not a fan of the 15th-17th holes across the road--not part of the original Ross design--in part because the topography is so flat and different from the main part of the course.
Doug --
Rick Shefchik can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you will learn from his upcoming book that those three holes -- or, at least, three holes on that flat ground -- PREDATE Ross's arrival on the scene, and were part of the original, 1899, Robert Foulis/Willie Watson nine.
Dan
According to my research for "From Fields to Fairways: Classic Golf Clubs of Minnesota" (available next spring from the University of Minnesota Press), when Watson and Foulis designed the original nine, holes 2, 3, 4 and 5 were located across the dirt road then then known as Excelsior Avenue, where current holes 15, 16 and 17 are now. The original 5th hole was eliminated when the course was expanded to 18 holes in 1906 by founder C.T. Jaffray and head pro Robert Taylor, and -- embellished? polished? tweaked? refined? -- by Tom Bendelow the following year.
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I'm not a fan of the 15th-17th holes across the road--not part of the original Ross design--in part because the topography is so flat and different from the main part of the course.
Doug --
Rick Shefchik can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you will learn from his upcoming book that those three holes -- or, at least, three holes on that flat ground -- PREDATE Ross's arrival on the scene, and were part of the original, 1899, Robert Foulis/Willie Watson nine.
Dan
According to my research for "From Fields to Fairways: Classic Golf Clubs of Minnesota" (available next spring from the University of Minnesota Press), when Watson and Foulis designed the original nine, holes 2, 3, 4 and 5 were located across the dirt road then then known as Excelsior Avenue, where current holes 15, 16 and 17 are now. The original 5th hole was eliminated when the course was expanded to 18 holes in 1906 by founder C.T. Jaffray and head pro Robert Taylor, and -- embellished? polished? tweaked? refined? -- by Tom Bendelow the following year.
Rick,
Interesting. Did Ross do anything to those holes?
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Southview
My favorite part of the Oak Ridge member guest was actually a rain delay. I spent about an hour chatting with a former member and 19 time club champion who retired to Palm Springs many years ago. His views on course architecture are the polar opposite of the generally prevailing views here. He likes courses to be manicured, visible, to clearly define the shot demands, to punish poor shots and to provide a reasonable putt to a player that hits the green. As you might guess, he is not a fan of Stone Eagle but is a huge fan of the Reserve.
I enjoyed the discussion because it is sometimes nice to hear a strong counterpoint to the views expressed on this site. It is easy to forget that a significant portion of the population cares about fairness and thinks of the game as a game, rather than an adventure through nature.
It is possible that such viewpoints are uneducated but more likely they are a strongly held preference.
The consequence of the rain delay was that we were late meeting Jeff Shelman at his club – Southview in South St. Paul. Southview is squeezed on an extraordinarily small piece of land. As a result, its holes generally run back and forth and are pretty narrow. These pictures are largely from this website and used with permission:
http://7minutemiles.com/wp-g2
Narrow Hole:
(http://7minutemiles.com/gallery2/d/21698-2/DSC_0144.JPG)
Picture of island par 3 15th. It is listed as the “signature hole” on the club’s website but such a designation sells the course woefully short:
(http://7minutemiles.com/gallery2/d/21635-2/DSC_0123.JPG)
Despite these limitations, Southview is fun to play. Its par fives are very short – between 470-500 yards. Its features some very interesting and significantly sloped greens. One can play well if he puts the tee ball in play. Otherwise you get to work on the punch shot under trees and your patience.
I fell into the latter category and got the opportunity to contribute to Jeff and John’s pocketbook.
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Windsong Farm
I got my revenge in the morning by taking John to Windsong Farm. We played from its 6700 yard tees which normally are very manageable but seemed extraordinarily long given the fatigue from the week as well as the overnight rain and the dew that lingered on a humid still day. Fortunately for me the fairways are extraordinarily wide, I had a slight advantage over John in length and John refused to take his handicap strokes.
My favorite aspect of Windsong are its par 3’s. So these photos will emphasize those holes.
Nonetheless, we start with the short par four 3rd:
(http://7minutemiles.com/gallery2/d/39331-2/Windsong+Farm+44.jpg)
The 4th – 180-200 yards with a gigantic green. The silo has been hit when the pin is in the back:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Windsong4.jpg)
The demanding par 3 7th. The hole is a short to midiron to a very narrow green that slopes towards the water just enough to make a bailout an almost certain bogey.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Windsong7.jpg)
A typical example of green surrounds at Windsong Farm (the 8th from back left) – many options around the greens but no cozy rough to keep a wayward approach close:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Windsong8lookingback.jpg)
The 10th –
It can be anything from a hybrid to a 6 iron for me. Green slopes pretty severely away from the bunker on the left.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Windsong10.jpg)
Approach to the short par five 12th. Even I can reach this green on a good day. The bunker on the right is well short of the green so a 3 wood that hits just right of the bunker winds up on the fringe.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Windsong12Green.jpg)
Approach to the short par 4 13th. The toughest pin is on the right with misplayed shots rolling 20 yards away from the green. If you bail out to the center, you face a downhill putt with disaster lurking if you are too aggressive:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Windsong13green.jpg)
The 16th – can be anything from a 6 iron to a 3 wood for me depending on the wind, the tee placement and my game. The clubhouse is in the background:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Minnesota%202011/Windsong16.jpg)
We trudged our way around the course and finished the marathon. I took John to the airport, went to a Twins game and then fell asleep at about 6 in the evening.
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While this trip proved a bit ambitious, particularly given some of the worst heat and humidity experienced in Minnesota in the last decade, I enjoyed giving John a sampling of Minnesota golf. Minnesota does not have any courses that will compete for top 20 in the US. Nonetheless, the depth and quality of the courses is extraordinary. Some people whom I talked with described this tour as one reviewing the “greatest hits” in the state. I would describe it more akin to a “31 Flavors” tour that did not necessarily hit the best courses but provided a sampling of the variety the state has to offer – from classic to modern, short to brutish and from a variety of architects with a heavy Ross emphasis. Another tour including a sampling of the following courses would be as good or better in terms of quality and variety:
Quarry at Giant’s Ridge/ Wilderness at Fortune Bay - Brauer
Golden Valley/Rochester – Tillinghast
Somerset/ Minnesota Valley – Raynor
Woodhill/Interlachen/Minneapolis – Ross (and others)
Hazeltine – Rees Jones
North Oaks (Thompson)
Spring Hill (Fazio)
Stoneridge (Weed)
The Classic/Deacon’s Lodge (Hoffman/Palmer)
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While this trip proved a bit ambitious, particularly given some of the worst heat and humidity experienced in Minnesota in the last decade, I enjoyed giving John a sampling of Minnesota golf. Minnesota does not have any courses that will compete for top 20 in the US. Nonetheless, the depth and quality of the courses is extraordinary. Some people whom I talked with described this tour as one reviewing the “greatest hits” in the state. I would describe it more akin to a “31 Flavors” tour that did not necessarily hit the best courses but provided a sampling of the variety the state has to offer – from classic to modern, short to brutish and from a variety of architects with a heavy Ross emphasis. Another tour including a sampling of the following courses would be as good or better in terms of quality and variety:
Quarry at Giant’s Ridge/ Wilderness at Fortune Bay - Brauer
Golden Valley/Rochester – Tillinghast
Somerset/ Minnesota Valley – Raynor
Woodhill/Interlachen/Minneapolis – Ross (and others)
Hazeltine – Rees Jones
North Oaks (Thompson)
Spring Hill (Fazio)
Stoneridge (Weed)
The Classic/Deacon’s Lodge (Hoffman/Palmer)
Jason,
I agree fully. As a newcomer to Minnesota this year, it's been great fun visiting so many golf courses in a somewhat small radius with interesting design pedigrees. Jeff Shelman has asked me a couple times this year after playing a particular course (I'm paraphrasing) "Did you think it was good, how do you think it stacks up with courses in Chicago?" and I've said many times that the courses here not only stack up, but below Chicago Golf and Shoreacres, it could be stronger.
I might start a thread...
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Good news on the photo of No. 15 at Southview: That picture is a few years old and most of the trees/growth behind the green is gone.
And the first photo is No. 18, the par 5 finisher up the hill.
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I really love the juxtaposition of Minikahda and WBL
So very different courses though built in the same era. I much prefer WBL because of the terrain and there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11) at Minikahda that bothers me.
Though I know it would never happen, I would love to see Minikahda steal a page from WBL and put the Back tees on 18 on the other side of excelsior.
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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11) at Minikahda that bothers me.
What bother you about those holes?
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Good news on the photo of No. 15 at Southview: That picture is a few years old and most of the trees/growth behind the green is gone.
And the first photo is No. 18, the par 5 finisher up the hill.
Jeff, I didn't recognize the photo of #18 at first. I don't think the hole plays nearly as narrow as the photo makes it look.
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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11) at Minikahda that bothers me.
What bother you about those holes?
my bigger issues are with 7 and 11; 3 irks me a little less
I dont like the line on 7 at all. The target is off another green and none of the bunkers really come into play.
11 is just an awkward shot for any pin on the left side. I dont like par 3s where you have to work a ball around a tree.
On 3, i am not sure what the architect is trying to get me to do. The front is heavily guarded but the back isn't steep enough. Also, one of the few holes where there are several trees which dont come into it.
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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11) at Minikahda that bothers me.
What bother you about those holes?
my bigger issues are with 7 and 11; 3 irks me a little less
I dont like the line on 7 at all. The target is off another green and none of the bunkers really come into play.
11 is just an awkward shot for any pin on the left side. I dont like par 3s where you have to work a ball around a tree.
On 3, i am not sure what the architect is trying to get me to do. The front is heavily guarded but the back isn't steep enough. Also, one of the few holes where there are several trees which dont come into it.
Mark:
I do not understand any of these concerns.
7:
I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee. The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me. You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant. The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.
11: Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play. I will look at that when I play there this fall.
3. The back is pretty darn steep. Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter.
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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11) at Minikahda that bothers me.
What bother you about those holes?
my bigger issues are with 7 and 11; 3 irks me a little less
I dont like the line on 7 at all. The target is off another green and none of the bunkers really come into play.
11 is just an awkward shot for any pin on the left side. I dont like par 3s where you have to work a ball around a tree.
On 3, i am not sure what the architect is trying to get me to do. The front is heavily guarded but the back isn't steep enough. Also, one of the few holes where there are several trees which dont come into it.
Mark:
I do not understand any of these concerns.
7:
I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee. The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me. You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant. The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.
11: Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play. I will look at that when I play there this fall.
3. The back is pretty darn steep. Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter.
When I played a member told me it was 235 to carry and I just measured it on Bluegolf and got 240 from the back of back box. I can tell you that I carry my driver 260-270 and can carry this with 20+ yards to spare. I actually think this hole plays better as a long par 4 from the middle tees. (which is what is occasionaly done when it hosts tourneys)
I guess we disagree on whether another green (or tee box) for that matter should be directly in a line of play. Personally, I dont think it ever should be and I cant think of any all-time great course which require you to do this.
Re: 3, i just think it looks awkward. I have much bigger issues with the other 2 holes, However, I am not sure how the tree removal project missed these.
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Mark:
I do not understand any of these concerns.
7:
I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee. The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me. You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant. The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.
11: Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play. I will look at that when I play there this fall.
3. The back is pretty darn steep. Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter.
I'm with Jason on all three counts.
7. Mark -- Do you *always* "carry" your driver 260 to 270? If you mis-hit it, doesn't that bunker come into play? It sure comes into play for 98 percent of all golfers. And once you carry that bunker, isn't that second shot awfully interesting?
11. Where is the tree encroaching on the line of play? What sort of "encroachment" are you talking about? One that forces you to hit a straight ball or some given bend in the ball to get close to the hole? I don't see how that's a problem.
3. The front is pretty darn steep, too. I missed left in Round 1 of the Senior Amateur last summer. Pin was down front. Chipped up about 20 feet above the hole, expecting the ball to dive down to the right. It managed to find a flattish spot at the right edge of the green -- and the putt I had (screaming sweeper to the left) was the fastest putt I've ever had to execute. Just gave it the wee-est tap I could, and it went 12, 15 feet past.
I think 3 and 7 are wonderful holes, and 11 is just fine.
I thought they took out every tree they needed to take out.
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Mark:
I do not understand any of these concerns.
7:
I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee. The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me. You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant. The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.
11: Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play. I will look at that when I play there this fall.
3. The back is pretty darn steep. Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter.
I'm with Jason on all three counts.
7. Mark -- Do you *always* "carry" your driver 260 to 270? If you mis-hit it, doesn't that bunker come into play? It sure comes into play for 98 percent of all golfers. And once you carry that bunker, isn't that second shot awfully interesting?
11. Where is the tree encroaching on the line of play? What sort of "encroachment" are you talking about? One that forces you to hit a straight ball or some given bend in the ball to get close to the hole? I don't see how that's a problem.
3. The front is pretty darn steep, too. I missed left in Round 1 of the Senior Amateur last summer. Pin was down front. Chipped up about 20 feet above the hole, expecting the ball to dive down to the right. It managed to find a flattish spot at the right edge of the green -- and the putt I had (screaming sweeper to the left) was the fastest putt I've ever had to execute. Just gave it the wee-est tap I could, and it went 12, 15 feet past.
I think 3 and 7 are wonderful holes, and 11 is just fine.
I thought they took out every tree they needed to take out.
I totally agree Dan. I think Minikahda's #3 is one of the best par 3s I've played anywhere. I challenge anyone to find a better greensite than this one. The par 3 11th isn't far behind. What a wonderful and challenging sloped Ross green, only made better by Prichard's expansion in the restoration. I don't think #7 is a great hole--a rather pedestriam par 5 compared to the 4th or 9th--but the concerns raised about the 7th aren't mine. If you want to find fault with Minikahda, I'd look at the par 3s before and after #7. Both #6 and #8 are out of character with the rest of the course.
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I totally agree Dan. I think Minikahda's #3 is one of the best par 3s I've played anywhere. I challenge anyone to find a better greensite than this one. The par 3 11th isn't far behind. What a wonderful and challenging sloped Ross green, only made better by Prichard's expansion in the restoration. I don't think #7 is a great hole--a rather pedestriam par 5 compared to the 4th or 9th--but the concerns raised about the 7th aren't mine. If you want to find fault with Minikahda, I'd look at the par 3s before and after #7. Both #6 and #8 are out of character with the rest of the course.
Curious, Doug:
You have more experience with Minikahda than I do -- so I'm asking:
1. Why do you prefer No. 4 to No. 7?
2. What do you mean by "out of character"? I'm not disputing that, but just wondering what you mean by it.
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Much of my summer this year was spent playing competitive golf.. I subscribe to the notion that there is a big difference between “happy golf” and competitive golf and am drawn to the challenge of trying to post a number like a moth to a light bulb.
The first competitive round of the year featured 33(F) degree temperatures , 25 mile per hour winds and snow flurries. I got out of the car and voted for cancellation but the motion apparently failed. My only contribution was to get up and down from a pond for par to halve a hole. Our squad – former perennial powers in the event – was crushed in the first round by a team that was crushed in the second round. I hope relegation is available to our squad next year.
I next got my butt kicked in qualifiers for state tournaments. It was not a good omen when I realized during a windy cold practice round that I could not make it over water to the fairways on a couple of holes from the back tees into the wind. I actually tried to map out wedge shots to the front tees in case I needed them. Fortunately, they moved the tees forward during the event. Unfortunately, the tee movement did not change my short game. The second event did not involve forced carries but at least it poured the entire day.
After three rounds in snow, rain, cold and wind, I tried out hot and humid for a match play event. It felt good for the 18 hole qualifier and even better when my opponent forfieted my first match in the afternoon. The next morning, I had the misfortune of having an opponent show up – therby depriving me of the title:
http://p.hostingprod.com/@mpga.net/2011_Match_Play_A.pdf
http://www.mngolf.org/uploads/tanners_brook_results_2.pdf
http://www.mngolf.org/uploads/wapicada_results_2011.pdf
http://p.hostingprod.com/@mpga.net/First_Flight_Braket_Pairings.pdf
It was now time for my Iowa swing of tournaments. For me, the highlight of the summer is being introduced on the first tee at the Northwest Amateur in Spencer, Iowa.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/2009%20Miscelleneous/Northwest%20Am/th_097.jpg) (http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/2009%20Miscelleneous/Northwest%20Am/?action=view¤t=097.mp4)
I have written about the Northwest Amateur before in which I gather with a group of high school friends to try and recapture childhood glory at a venue that we have played many times in the past. This year we were joined by Ben Kodadek who screwed up the mojo of the trip by showing competence on the course.
http://tournamentresults.igolftheworld.com/IndividualStroke/Results.aspx?IDGolfEvent=3b2f4766-6d6a-43a7-8cdf-af11f0a11e9c&IDTournament=9ad4b2e6-8c52-443f-b10d-e8f1d636e9de&CategoryCode=
Next was the Herman Sani Invitational, which is hosted by Hyperion Field Club outside of Des Moines, IA. I have played the Sani at times because it includes professionals and is a rare opportunity to play with some old friends that are now club pros. It is a wonderful event that raises money for a scholarship program. The course is about 6400 yard Bendelow design with plenty of birdie opportunities and fast sloping greens.
In the final round I was paired with three kids who played for college teams. After watching how far they hit the ball, I questioned how these guys could have shot the same score as me in the first round. I soon got my answer. The entire course is on the side of a hill. These guys had a hard time figuring out that the hill would influence the speed of their putts. If they figure that out, I will never play with them again.
I also got to experience parents following their kids around the course. When I was a kid only one parent did that. The father would carry around a lawn chair and sit about a hole ahead. If you were in the group ahead you would see the father in the trees and then hear a stream of profanity that was not meant to be heard by other humans – let alone children. We all loved the father but kept our distance when his son was on the course.
Today, it seems like a requirement that any group of kids playing in a tournament bring along a pack of parents following them around like a herd. In my group, the parents stayed about a half a hole ahead and made the unfortunate decision to stay in the left rough. The first four holes at Hyperion feature OB tight on the right side. I have learned over the years that my best play is to aim at the trees left and try and fade it back to the fairway. The parents stood 60 yards short of their kids tee shot distance but such positioning put them precisely in range for me. I made one blonde mother jump four holes in a row as my tee shots travelled directly at her without a hint of fade.
After assuring the mother I was not trying to kill her, I spent much of the remainder of the round conversing with them. They seemed so old when standing 240 yards away. Up close, I realized we were about the same age.
Herman Sani Invitational (Aug 12-14):
http://tournamentresults.igolftheworld.com/IndividualStroke/Results.aspx?IDGolfEvent=0fa1a218-7234-488b-80d9-97b40d425f11&IDTournament=085e1590-314b-420b-a5dd-1da4fb16aa9d&CategoryCode=
The final phase of my tournament year consisted of club championships. My private club’s tournament featured a field of seven contestants and I finished deep in the also ran division. Fortunately the club does not post results on the web.
Things turned around for me at my public course, where I managed to play in the final group the second day. Even though, I gradually faded to finish five behind, it was fun watching an experienced 52 year old fend off charges from two younger challengers who made putts all over the place. The pro kept a leader board that he would update every 3 holes and drive around the course. Apparently he did not think much of my play because at the turn he pulled my name off and replaced it with a guy I was beating. When I questioned the move, he erased the 4th name on the board and left it blank.
As people finished their rounds, the course gave them carts to follow the final group as it finished. By the last 3 holes, it felt like we were leading a parade.
It was a nice way to finish a tournament season that started with snow and not being able to make the carry to get to the fairway.
Bunker Hills Club Championship (September 10-11):
http://www.bhmc.org/eventresults/9_11_2011_9-11-11%20CC%20Winners.pdf
I encourage everyone to find some competition and try their best. You quickly learn to appreciate how much more difficult the game becomes when your performance will be posted on the internet and many people will look up how you did. Architecture changes when that pretty fescue surrounding a bunker suddenly carries with it the possibility of the march of shame back to the location of your last shot. Water that never seemed in play suddenly looms as if it creeps out to the center of the fairway. Bland courses suddenly seem very interesting.
Even on my darkest days I feel better about an ugly number than the people with “NC”, “WD” or “NS” next to their name. I always learn something even if I do not like the lesson.
Now, however, I am ready for some “happy golf.”
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I completely agree with you, Jason -- if you want to know what kind of a golfer you really are, tee it up in a tournament. I've found out what kind of a golfer I am.
I always enjoyed the Ben Hogan quote, uttered when someone wanted him to play a strictly social round: "I don't play jolly golf."
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I encourage everyone to find some competition and try their best. You quickly learn to appreciate how much more difficult the game becomes when your performance will be posted on the internet and many people will look up how you did.
Amen, brother. I've played in the MN Senior the past two years not because I had any chance of making the cut (I didn't), but to remind myself how hard golf is -- a lesson that comes in really handy when I watch my daughter's tournaments. And, honestly, as poorly as I've played (sometimes VERY poorly), I took some pleasure in beating a few guys with lower handicaps than mine.
Oh, and by the way: Not that many people ever look up your scores!
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In late September, I visited St. George, Utah with a group of 16 of widely varying handicaps. We played five rounds in three days and enjoyed nearly perfect desert weather. None of the courses are a threat to crack anyone’s top 100, but rack rates were largely in the $50-$60 range at that time of year and the ever changing dramatic views compete with those from any golf course I have experienced.
My course descriptions are in order of preference. The pictures are pulled from the web. I will supplement with my own pictures as soon as I can find the chord to connect my camera to my computer.
Sand Hollow
http://www.sandhollowresort.com/
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/sandhollow.php
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/sandhollow.html
This John Fought design and features a “championship” 18 and a “links” 9. I played both and found the Links 9 the strongest part of the course.
The Links 9 is set on a relatively gentle slope that runs right to left and downhill moving away from the first tee and uphill with a left to right slope returning. The routing is not purely out and back – it includes a switchback at the far end of the course. It features wide fairways and gigantic greens with a number of interesting humps and hollows. The two par threes were strong – one a 200 yard hole to a green sitting up and the second a short par 3 over rugged land to a green that looked small but is actually giant. There was also a strong par four that looked intimidating off the tee but was long enough to reward an aggressive line. It was the only course of those we played designed for walking. The bunker style is rugged and the cost could not be beat - $15 walking.
Those used to real links golf will quickly recognize the shortcomings of attempting the concept here. The grass was a bit sticky and the greens too soft to provide a true links experience. Nonetheless, the challenges associated with the general slope of the land and the endless variety of available pin placements makes this nine my first priority on a return visit.
The Championship 18 is the more popular course and appeared to be one of the busiest in the area. The entire course is routed to allow for a dramatic cliffside stretch from the 12th to the 15th. The fairways are extremely wide and most of the interest comes from a large number of fairway bunkers that are deep and real hazards.
The par 3's are memorable. Here is the reverse redan 11th:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/SandHollow11.jpg)
And the dramatic 15th:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/SandHollow13.jpg)
The course features two interesting driveable par 4s. We played the 5th from 306 yards. It is downhill with a wide open fairway that squeezes between a bunker and desert near the green. I pulled out driver and hit on what I thought was a safe line. My opponent pulled out an iron. I thought about deriding his manliness but did not do so. When we got to our shots, he had an 80 yard wedge and I had a 45 yard bunker shot. The fairway squeezed at exactly the right point. He made birdie and I lost with a par.
We played the 13th from a forward tee at around 260 yards. The green is benched into the cliffside with what looks like oblivion left. A hollow on that side provides more margin for error than it first appears and provides enough temptation to make an aggressive play a reasonable option:
(http://www.lasvegasgolf.com/courses/image/preview/3232.jpg)
If you are going to play one course in St. George, I recommend 27 at Sand Hollow. Then - enjoy the view at sunset:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/SandHollowVista.jpg)
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I still have not figured out my pictures so I borrowed these from a fellow traveller.
Kokepelli
http://kokopelliut.com/
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/kokopelli.html
I hope this course can make it financially. It is in the middle of nowhere but one of the most unique settings for golf I have ever experienced. It is on the road to Zion National Park and commands expansive views of the park and an unspoiled natural landscape that differs markedly from the red rocks of St. George.
The golf course itself is quite demanding but interesting for all levels of play. I could not find the name of the architect. It appears to have been inspired by those Bud Chapman paintings of impossible golf holes. It plays quite long at 6659 from the regular (white) tees and while the 4400 foot elevation helps distance off the tee, the cooler temperatures seemed to counteract any elevation effect on the day we played.
The front nine runs up and back down the side of a mountain. At the high point one plays a very good 99 yard par 3 that features a gigantic natural waterfall that does not come into play but is a refreshing reminder of the inadequacy of artificial versions so common in Palm Springs.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Kokopellishort.jpg)
The back nine is on flatter ground and is probably the stronger design. A dramatic deep canyon runs through a number of holes and was used in a variety of ways throughout the nine – a dramatic par three, as the inside hazard on a long par four and as a carry hazard on the adjoining short par five first.
Par 3 11th – dramatic hole with green sloping left to right. This picture is from a forward tee.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Kokopelli11.jpg)
Back tee on 12 – a long gentle dogleg right following the contour of the canyon:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Kokopelli12-1.jpg)
16 Green – 566 uphill yards to a cape type green:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Kokopelli16.jpg)
While the greens on this course were in good shape the fairways were terrible. Hopefully those issues can be resolved. Kokopelli would be my second recommendation in the area, possibly first if the conditioning issues were resolved.
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Looks like fun...but I would definitely put this course in the penal category.
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Looks like fun...but I would definitely put this course in the penal category.
I assume your note is on Kokopelli. The photos are a bit deceiving on that front. I found the course to be quite playable and relatively strategic. Other courses from the trip were more penal.
The fairways on the course are generally quite wide. The forced carries are generally pretty short and largely exist on shorter par threes. For example, the first par three pictured is only 99 yards from the white tees (140 from the 7700 yard tees) with a giant green. The 11th provides an interesting choice between taking the pin head on or using a slope left of the green to feed the ball back. The long par 4 12th has a pretty wide fairway on an angle from the tee and provides a number of alternate lines off the tee. I would guess the forced carry is less than 100 yards from the back 3 markers. Other holes have more width.
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Thanks for the pics. I've been to St. George once, but didn't see either of these courses. From the photos, I would never have guessed the second course was there. Have you played Coral Canyon?
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Thanks for the pics. I've been to St. George once, but didn't see either of these courses. From the photos, I would never have guessed the second course was there. Have you played Coral Canyon?
Yes - we played there. I need to get around to writing it up.
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Still struggling with the pictures on the other courses but I thought I would add the write ups before I lose them:
Coral Canyon
http://www.coralcanyongolf.com/index.php
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/coralcanyon.html
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/coralcanyon.php
When I first played turf restricted desert courses in 1985, I found the experience largely miserable. Trying to stop a duck hook on islands of firm turf is a recipe for a long day. I was used to playing Iowa courses that were basically grassed over corn fields with single lines of trees planted to separate holes. I went from someone that broke 80 a decent percentage of time to someone who was a threat to shoot a hundred on any outing. I found my pocket being picked by guys that hit 180 yard slices but knew where the ball was going. For a prideful 20 year old ego such an experience leaves bruises.
Once I realized the world would not end if I sucked at golf, I learned to embrace the challenge of target golf. I realized it was more mental than physical and that if I played more conservatively I could actually shoot a decent score. Although I moved back to the Midwest, I looked forward to visits to my parents in order to enjoy the weather and to face the challenge of keeping the ball out of the desert.
In the intervening years architects learned how to make desert courses more enjoyable for the average player. While I generally applaud such efforts, it does come at a cost. The thrill of negotiating a tough challenge disappears. Instead most modern desert courses provide a beautiful view but a relatively standard golf experience.
Whether by design, neglect or necessity Coral Canyon is a throwback. Forced carries exist on nearly every hole. On several holes one stood on the tee and could not see a fairway. The 15th defies all modern requirements. From the tees we played one has a choice of a 230 yard carry or laying up with a midiron on a 450 yard par four. The second shot is over yet another wash that is well short of the green but forces a second layup for those that chose the conservative option off the tee.
I really enjoyed coral canyon but am not sure others would love the course.
Entrada at Snow Mountain
http://www.golfentrada.com/
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/entrada.php
The best aspect of this resort is the accommodations. We stayed here and their condos were gigantic, well furnished and had beautiful views. The rate was similar to rates I have paid for a budget motel at other destinations. View from the back: [picture pending]
As for the golf - this Johnny Miller design is beautiful and quite demanding. I am not sure I have played another Miller course but I can understand why his designs are criticized by many. The fairways were tight without being interesting. The greens were designed to reward extremely precise iron play with significant consequences for missing. Thus, this appeared to my eye to be a course that should be played conservatively the entire way around.
The most unique holes are through black lava on the back nine but are so awkward that I doubt I would like a regular dose of them.
In short, this course was not my favorite but I would return again.
Ledges of St. George
http://www.ledges.com/
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/ledges.html
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/ledges.php
The front nine of this course must be considered an accomplishment. How it would be possible to come up with an utterly boring design in such a dramatic part of the world is beyond my comprehension. The fairways are wide, dead flat and devoid of interest. As an added bonus, the architect felt it was necessary to add these hideous mounds on the fringes of the course. [pircture pending]
The back nine is better but not strong enough to make up for the sins of the front. The 16th is a par five that needs to be blown up and rebuilt. The aggressive option involves a long carry over bunkers that then tumbles downhill through a fairway into a ravine. Layup is how I would play the hole next time.
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Relentless destruction of vanity . . . .
The thought keeps going through my head at 4 am as I am driving through some desolate stretch of Interstate 10 near the Mississippi/Louisiana border.
Perhaps the thought is caused by my dwindling gas supply and the apparently dim prospect of finding a gas station in a swamp.
Perhaps it is based on my experiences in the Casinos in Biloxi, where bright lights beckon but mathematical odds collect.
Perhaps it was from all the hurricane destruction that dominates the area.
Perhaps it is from the status of the golf course industry – a small symptom of a worldwide orgy of vanity being punished by the fundamental rule of economics that in order to create true wealth one must produce something of value.
Perhaps it is a lack of sleep.
Actually – I know the cause of my pensive mood. My golf game stunk. When one gets his butt kicked over five rounds of golf against this guy – seen hitting from the drop area:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi028.jpg)
And this guy – seen working his way through the rough by hacking the ball repeatedly halfway to the hole:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi034.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi035.jpg)
One knows his enjoyment of the game should never be dependent on the quality of his play.
Fortunately, I learned this lesson long ago and had a terrific time racing around golf courses in the Biloxi area with Sam Morrow and Cory Lewis.
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Jason has the unique ability to get some of the most interesting lies:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/camel03/299803_297456086947381_100000489755557_1200513_353426396_n.jpg)
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I got the pleasure of seeing other GCA’ers on the trip. The Lang couple rivalry appears just as strong as it was when we played together at Kingsley. I met David Madison for the first time and learned that bunkers 300 yards off the tee actually can come into play.
We played five courses. By far the star of the group is Fallen Oak associated with the Beau Rivage Casino. The course is the Biloxi version of Shadow Creek complete with a limo ride to the course, a secretive location and outstanding service. The Tom Fazio course might be better than Shadow Creek. It presents endless variety, is in impeccable condition, is challenging while still being playable for all levels, sits on a nice piece of land and has a distinctive bunker style that must cost a mint to maintain.
This is a picture of one of the practice greens:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi024.jpg)
Other courses in rough order of preference included:
The Preserve (Pate)
Shell Landing (Love)
Grand Bear (Nicklaus)
The Oaks (cannot remember)
All of these courses were pleasant experiences generally designed for fun rather than punishment. The Preserve brings the most water into play, and requires that one be able to keep the ball within reasonable corridors. It features small greens and places reasonable demands on the player without becoming a death march.
Shell Landing offers ample room off the tee and interesting greens with significant contour as its primary defense. Recent topdressing and slow greens on the day we visited made the undulations significantly less daunting than what I assume is typical.
Grand Bear must be from Nicklaus’ gentler period – fairways are wide and the demands on iron play are significant but not as difficult as presented on some of his mean courses.
The Oaks fits into relatively tight tree lined corridors. Its greens are interesting for the first few holes but repeat so often that it is difficult to differentiate them when one thinks back at the end of the round.
The flat terrain and sandy soil lends itself to better golf than pictures but here are a few shots. I will need to do some research in order to describe them:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi027.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi031.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi032.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi038.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi041.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi043.jpg)
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Just one question:
Did Sam lay up to the drop area?
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Jason has the unique ability to get some of the most interesting lies:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/camel03/299803_297456086947381_100000489755557_1200513_353426396_n.jpg)
At least I handled it well. My next shot is barely visible on this cart path:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Mississippi%202011/Mississippi036.jpg)
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Just one question:
Did Sam lay up to the drop area?
No - it may have been the only ball he lost.
By contrast, I was worried about my dozen running low. I needed to take advantage of the opportunity for a drop area photo when it arrived.
If one every has illusions that they cannot play well because they do not hit the ball far they should play with Sam and Cory who both know where the ball is going and have excellent short games.
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One picture and it's me in the drop area? That is so frickin weak, of course all my Topp pictures are him in the gunch.
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One picture and it's me in the drop area? That is so frickin weak, of course all my Topp pictures are him in the gunch.
Bring it funny guy
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One picture and it's me in the drop area? That is so frickin weak, of course all my Topp pictures are him in the gunch.
Bring it funny guy
We never found the sweet n lo at the blackjack table
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I do have that picture of Jason and his "friend" at the blackjack table. Maybe I should post that one? What do you think Sam?
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I do have that picture of Jason and his "friend" at the blackjack table. Maybe I should post that one? What do you think Sam?
Was that were I had my thumbs up like a bigger douche than I already am?
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I do have that picture of Jason and his "friend" at the blackjack table. Maybe I should post that one? What do you think Sam?
Was that were I had my thumbs up like a bigger douche than I already am?
That's one of them. I took a few. Had to document the moment.
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I do have that picture of Jason and his "friend" at the blackjack table. Maybe I should post that one? What do you think Sam?
Was that were I had my thumbs up like a bigger douche than I already am?
That's one of them. I took a few. Had to document the moment.
But you didn't get me winning all that money on a penny slot? I'm pissed at you guys.
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But you didn't get me winning all that money on a penny slot? I'm pissed at you guys.
What kind of person wins $200 on a penny slot, never heard of that. I should get a percentage since I gave you all my "winnings" from the penny slots great as they were.
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But you didn't get me winning all that money on a penny slot? I'm pissed at you guys.
What kind of person wins $200 on a penny slot, never heard of that. I should get a percentage since I gave you all my "winnings" from the penny slots great as they were.
I dominate the penny slots in Biloxi. Hell I had more fun at The Palace than I did at Beau Rivage.
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I need to add my thoughts on Topps Travels though Mississippi. It went a little something like this.
Our Sunday round at The Oaks was interesting. It would be most highlighted by Cory and I being in a cart and using our Androids to check NFL scores, all the while Jason giving us the stink eye that he didn't get all our fun. The Oaks is a decent course, nobody (with common sense) will confuse it for anymore than that. They could take out about 10,000 more trees and you might notice. The finest compliment I can give this course and really any course for that matter is that the burgers were good and the stall was clean. That night at dinner Jason was at another table and I could feel his eyes on us all night, the irony is that I would have gladly switched seats with him.
On Monday we got to play Fallen Oak, I didn't take the limo. I rode with Cory because he is an angry person and needed someone to make his ride more enjoyable. When we got to Fallen Oak we sat down at the great breakfast spread and I did what I do best, ordered an 8am bloody mary and found the lox. As I brought a slab of lox to the table Cory seemed confused what I was eating. I might be a southern Baptist boy but I'm half Jewish and I know good lox when I find them, especially when they are free. I was in a cart by myself but I had Emanuel, our forecaddie (and locker room attendant) ride with me. We didn't talk much golf in our cart but we did talk about cart girls and his years in education. Fallen Oak is one of the best courses you while find just about anywhere. They have one of the best short game areas I have ever seen. Fazio knows practice. Fallen Oak is a special place and even more special knowing that my last 2 rounds there have been with Jason, Cory, and last year Mayhugh.
That afternoon we went to Grand Bear, this course was much better than I expected. We did get a little lost which led to Cory and I both using our GPS's and getting two different routes. Once we got there I found a Nicklaus course that wasn't overly hard and used the land naturally. I was pleasantly surprised and they had a cool clubhouse, it reminded me of the Wilderness Resort at Disney. After the round the 3 of us had a romantic dinner at The Outback Steakhouse where I professed my love for Barry Manilow and that I will fight anyone who doesn't like Whataburger.
The next morning we played The Preserve, this Jerry Pate course kind of falls under the radar but it's very good. We got to meet Jerry Pate, Jerry loves himself some Jerry but Cory made lewd comments about me and Jerry. I think Cory was jealous.
After The Preserve we went to Shell Landing, it's a Davis Love III course but I've heard that the real brains behind it are GCA's own Paul Cowley. Paul should really step up and take that credit. This is a really cool course with some wild greens. The greens had just been top dressed and were a little shaggy but in optimum conditions I can see this course being all you want and then some.
Lastly we had a wonderful wine dinner that night followed by a trip to the casino. We had a run in with an easy women who wouldn't leave us alone and I got crazy on penny slots, it was a great time.
It would certainly be tough to Top Topp's Travels. (See what I did there)
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I am going to get to the Dixie Cup eventually but feel compelled to post one of the ugliest group pictures I have been involved in ever. Sam, Cory and I demonstrated why we are not fashion models with this one:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/PreservewithJerryPate.jpg)
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Why didn't anybody tell me I had such a big head!
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Why didn't anybody tell me I had such a big head!
You don't. Something strange happened there. I look like a Zombie.
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It's hard to believe that Jerry isn't talking.
Maybe he's taking a breath.
I am going to get to the Dixie Cup eventually but feel compelled to post one of the ugliest group pictures I have been involved in ever. Sam, Cory and I demonstrated why we are not fashion models with this one:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/PreservewithJerryPate.jpg)
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8) Great stuff... emblematic of the gca.com spirit that binds..
Fallen Oak
There was everything to like at Fallen Oak... solid routing, great variety, good bad and ugly pin placement options on sizeable greens.. great walk or ride in the park... though some big and beefy views oddly made me think of a meld of the Fazio Course at Carlton Woods and the one at Treetops... couldn't go for the AM bloody mary, but i agree, the lox and bagels were good sam!
Instead of an emergency 9 we went back to Mobile for bbq at The Brick Pit, unfortunately they're closed on Mondays.. but The Shed down the street was a good plan B.. If one played FO everyday, you'd develop a serious game... but dominated by tee shots
The Preserve
Meeting Jerry Pate on the putting green at the Preserve within a minute of arriving and later playing several holes with him was a real treat, probably only outdone by playing/learning the inside scoop with his #1, Steve Dana. JP is wired, but i think it was his mother's influence. They really created a solid if not spectacular venue on that property. There were many different looks.. shots required from my bag, which i thoroughly enjoyed. My best compliment, we went back out for 11 more holes, those through the swamp were definitely fun.
p.s. Bill McB I asked JP what was he thinking at the PCC's # 18... he smiled and said, "You like'd it? Great stage!"
Jason, great to see ya again, keep up the Topps Travels serial..
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Hell I had the am bloody mary (3 times) and again at the turn and again downing one before we left.
Bill,
Right before that picture was taken I name dropped you, I got nothing.
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Hell I had the am bloody mary (3 times) and again at the turn and again downing one before we left.
Bill,
Right before that picture was taken I name dropped you, I got nothing.
It's always all about JP. I was the golf chairman when he built the new course, and the Redan was my idea. You never want to hold your breath waiting to be appreciated by Jerry.
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Hell I had the am bloody mary (3 times) and again at the turn and again downing one before we left.
Bill,
Right before that picture was taken I name dropped you, I got nothing.
It's always all about JP. I was the golf chairman when he built the new course, and the Redan was my idea. You never want to hold your breath waiting to be appreciated by Jerry.
I like yalls redan, I really liked the chipping area right.
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Jason,
Was this day 1 or day 3 of your trip? I only ask because I noticed you are wearing your shirt right side out. I look forward to the clarification.
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Ben
It was day 2. I remembered 2 shirts for this trip.
A tip for you - luggage fees are cheaper if you do not bring a trunk of clothes for a three day trip.
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Something strange happened there. I look like a Zombie.
Talk about your hanging curveballs!
BTW: Kudos to your super. Green covers on: 11/8/2011. First snowflakes seen: 11/10/2011.
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It looks like my final rounds of the year were played at the Dixie Cup in Virginia. I have attended one of the major GCA events every year that I have been a member of the discussion group. These events are fantastic experiences and consistently feature a great group of people, interesting golf courses and reasonable prices.
This year’s Dixie club delivered on all three fronts. While some of my experiences with the people will bear a separate discussion, the best part about this event was the thoughtful manner in which Lester George arranged for us to play four of his designs in four very different business settings. Unfortunately, weather only allowed us to see three of the venues. Weather forced us to miss Kanahwa, a private par three course that gets rave reviews.
Playing these courses on consecutive days allowed the group to experience the different design decisions Lester made in these different settings. Many members of the group commented that it was amazing to see that the same person designed all three courses because the presented such different experiences. As I will discuss when I get time, I also saw a lot of similarities in Lester’s approach in three very different settings. For now, here are some pictures.
Ballyhack
Ballyhack is a national destination club with a limited local membership. The design pushes the envelope of what the retail golfer could accept and strives to create a memorable experience in dramatic terrain. These pictures were all taken from the 9th tee at Ballyhack where it is possible to see every green on the front nine except the 8th. I wanted to give a sense of the terrain:
This picture shows, from left to right the 9th fairway and green, the 8th tee, the 6th green and the 7th green:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011024.jpg)
This picture focuses further to the right across the 8th fairway. The two visible flags are from the 2nd and 4th greens. To the left of the 2nd green you can see a portion of the 5th green in the distance and to the right you can see most of the green on the par three third. The fairway to the right is the 4th.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011025.jpg)
Here is a shot of the massive double green on the back nine that serves both the par three 13th and the par 5 15th (taken from 14 tee):
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011029.jpg)
Kinloch:
Kinloch strives to provide the best conditioned golf course and the best service anywhere. The definition of the best conditioned golf course comes from Vinny Giles and includes a commitment to flawless and very fast green surfaces (they strive to have greens with stimpmeter readings in the 13-14 foot range).
I did not take pictures while playing at Kinloch because it was too wet and cold but I did snap these photos from the clubhouse while waiting for frost to melt and for Evan Fleisher to try and find his camera on the day after we played:
The bye hole and lake that impacts the finish of the course:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011030.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011031.jpg)
The short game practice area with the building that includes some indoor practice stalls and the front nine behind:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011032.jpg)
Providence
Providence is a daily fee course that Lester redesigned to take advantage of some additional land that became available to augment the course. While waiting for the other groups to finish, I had the privilege of watching a special olympics group dressed in costumes organize and head out for an afternoon nine hole halloween event. Providence is a wonderful golf course for any customer but the benefits of such a facility to a community were on full display that day.
A look backwards at the par four 3rd.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011033.jpg)
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Jason, When do we get to see the picture of the door lock? The pictures of Kinloch are first rate. Care to share?
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Jason, When do we get to see the picture of the door lock? The pictures of Kinloch are first rate. Care to share?
Feel free to copy the pictures. I would have taken a picture of the door lock but of course my camera was locked up as well.
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Jason, When do we get to see the picture of the door lock? The pictures of Kinloch are first rate. Care to share?
Feel free to copy the pictures. I would have taken a picture of the door lock but of course my camera was locked up as well.
I hope the hotel had the decency to comp your room!
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As this thread attests, I love to travel. Inevitably if one travels, there will be challenges along the way.
I’ve experienced many travel disasters over the years. Some highlights:
Falling asleep in LAX waiting for a redeye to take off and waking up to see the jetway door shut. The Attendant announced in a firm voice – “This Plane has left.” He was not impressed by my argument that I could see it right outside the window. Night spent in the airport.
Missing a connection in Memphis because the airline had two planes leaving at the same time for Minneapolis and I got on the wrong one. Because of a convention in town I went from a luxurious New Orleans hotel to a Motel 8 in a bad Memphis neighborhood where the remote control was bolted to the nightstand.
Having the children refuse to go to the Sidney Fireworks on New Years eve because they preferred to spend the evening watching television. They in particular wanted to see a commercial where the yellow M&M claimed it should be the color for Christmas because “Snow is yellow.” When challenged on this point the yellow M&M claimed “It sometimes is.”
Hiding out from the conductor on a swiss train because my Wife’s 85 year old swiss grandmother talked us into saving a little bit of money by buying a ticket that only went to the neighboring town. She sprung into action like James Bond as the conductor approached – telling Claire and I to pretend our infant daughter was sick and by moving around the train with our son.
This year, the Dixie Cup provided plenty of challenges.
– I did my usual terrible job of packing. I had one pair of long pants and three pairs of shorts.
– Morgan Clawson helpfully brought along his GPS device. The device was deceptive and Morgan needs glasses. Twice the GPS announced we were at our destination when we were in some remote neighborhood. We tried a shortcut to get to Ballyhack that involved waiting at a bunch of stoplights, driving in a circle, cutting through a hospital parking lot and then stopping to ask for directions.
– The weather was awful. The October snowstorm that pounded the East Coast rained on Virginia. We experienced four seasons in three days – from sleet to rain to cold, to frost to a sunny bright day to finish. It was warmer in Minneapolis.
– During a rainy morning, I went downstairs to check with Bill McBride about the plans for the day. After a pleasant chat, I returned to find out my key did not work. The eventual diagnosis was that the batteries went out on the lock. Unfortunately for me, to replace the batteries one needed a specialized screwdriver. The only screwdriver was with the maintenance guy who had gotten off work at 5 am and was sound asleep. Also unfortunately for me – all of my stuff was in my room. Four hours later I finally was let back in after the super drove back and was delayed due to a traffic jam.
– As I exited the hotel in a driving rainstorm to catch up to the group at Kinloch, the hotel super stopped me and said “I have one question. What kind of golf tournament would be held on a day like this?” I did not have a good answer for him so I chickened out and said “We are just having lunch.”
Despite these setbacks, the Dixie Cup was a big highlight for me. The event had a wonderful collection of interesting people, strange people, old friends, new faces and organizers that both know what they are doing and get the details right to make for a unique experience.
For this Dixie Cup, Lester George was extraordinarily generous with his time, spending evenings with us and driving around the course to tell us about his designs and get a sense of what we were experiencing. I also suspect Lester had a lot of input into the course setups we experienced. Ballyhack seemed to have pretty forgiving pins which makes sense on such a challenging course being experienced by first timers. We played from varied tees that were playable for the group but challenging in many spots. Kinloch and Providence both seemed specially set up as well to highlight the strategic choices that abound at each location. Lester spent a long time praising the caddy green reading ability prior to our round at Kinloch, but our caddies got some reads wrong and explained that they never see pins in some of the spots we experienced.
The clubs went out of their way to make the experience memorable. I loved the fire at Ballyhack (Sorry Roger) and it was a good thing I had a cabin that night after spending a bit too much time sitting next to Jamey at the bar. Kinloch went above and beyond by allowing us to play their course on a day with heavy rain. Providence gave us early morning weekend tee times – quite a sacrifice given their regular crowd was largely squeezed out by our group and a Special Olympics costume golf outing that played after us.
Where the organizers left space in the schedule, others filled the gaps. Evan Fleisher set up a terrific barbecue outing that was attended by nearly the entire group. Mike Whitaker, Craig Disher, Morgan Clawson, Peter Pittock, Lou Duran and I had a wonderful dinner Sunday evening once we found a restaurant in Richmond that was open.
My favorite things that happen on these trips are the goofy unexpected things.
Joel Zuckerman seemed to be around for most such events. He challenged a four-year old to a boxing match at the barbecue restaurant.
He entered into a twenty minute negotiation with a young bartender at Kinloch over a pushup competition and got thoroughly beaten despite being spotted 26 pushups.
Mark Pritchett’s approach to negotiating pairings was as enjoyable as his announcement to the group.
I love being in the South on a college football Saturday. I thought Vikings fans were nuts but Southerners live and die with every play. I thought Whitaker was going to injure himself watching Clemson.
Fun things also happened on the course:
I spent 17 holes referring to Bruce Wellmon as “Hart.” That mistake would not be so embarrassing except I had the scorecard and as captain I made the pairings. It was reminiscent of me introducing myself to Joe Hancock 3 times at Palmetto. Bruce showed his appreciation by killing me in our singles match.
I almost killed Mike Hamilton four times over two rounds – the most serious effort was a line drive shank with a full swing 7 iron over his head.
I witnessed two miraculous hole-outs – one from 128 yards by Morgan for par and the other from about 190 by Lou Duran for eagle.
I found some interesting connections:
- Jamey Bryan and I are members of the same fraternity
- Jimmy Chandler and I played about 50 holes together at Kingsley a couple of years ago
- I explained to Joel Zuckerman that I thought about creating a blog rather than write this thread but rejected the idea because “nobody reads blogs.” I realized later that Joel has a blog. Joel responded by asking “What kind of feedback are you getting on the thread?” I said I had not gotten much. Joel then left me hanging.
If you have not been to one of these events do yourself a favor and figure out how to attend.
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Great summary of the Dixie Cup, Jason. Sorry I missed it.
Your travel stories are definitely entertaining.
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I spent 17 holes referring to Bruce Wellmon as “Hart.” That mistake would not be so embarrassing except I had the scorecard and as captain I made the pairings. It was reminiscent of me introducing myself to Joe Hancock 3 times at Palmetto. Bruce showed his appreciation by killing me in our singles match.
Imagine Jason's plight if he had witnessed the 2010 Dixie Cup 4 ball pairing at Mimosa of Hart Huffines and myself for the South team.
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Joel Zuckerman seemed to be around for most such events. He challenged a four-year old to a boxing match at the barbecue restaurant.
He entered into a twenty minute negotiation with a young bartender at Kinloch over a pushup competition and got thoroughly beaten despite being spotted 26 pushups.
A few words of clarification counselor, so nobody gets the wrong idea:
Yes--the boxing match idea was legit, but considering the lad's father went about 6'6", 240, I figured getting the kid as a "welterweight" was my only hope..once he's 5 or 6, I'm toast!
Regarding the bar bet: Lest anyone think I managed to wheeze my way through 7 or 8 pushups with trembling arms, and got bested by a strapping youth who machine-gunned 35, you are dead wrong! I knocked out a legit 50 (at age 50 might I add) nary a pause, and after 5-6 pints. How was I to know my opponent was a genetic freak and maniacal gym rat, who not only did 76, but did them with one foot atop the other!
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I explained to Joel Zuckerman that I thought about creating a blog rather than write this thread but rejected the idea because “nobody reads blogs.” I realized later that Joel has a blog. Joel responded by asking “What kind of feedback are you getting on the thread?” I said I had not gotten much.
No offense taken, I'm sure!
Thanks for the entertainment.
Dan
P.S. Don't eat that yellow snow.
P.P.S. And as for blogs: Cf. http://www.newyorker.com/humor/issuecartoons/2011/09/26/cartoons_20110919#slide=6 (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/issuecartoons/2011/09/26/cartoons_20110919#slide=6)
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Regarding the bar bet: Lest anyone think I managed to wheeze my way through 7 or 8 pushups with trembling arms, and got bested by a strapping youth who machine-gunned 35, you are dead wrong! I knocked out a legit 50 (at age 50 might I add) nary a pause, and after 5-6 pints. How was I to know my opponent was a genetic freak and maniacal gym rat, who not only did 76, but did them with one foot atop the other!
I knew Joel was in trouble when he tried to alter the contest to a headstand contest. Worse - I knew that he knew. Worse than that - the bartender knew that Joel knew.
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Thanks for the updated posts, Jason. The Dixie Cup run down proves that even golf in shit weather with a bunch of GCAers beats the hell out of the alternative. Cheers!
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Jason-I would hate to see the bar tab for any fraternity that you and Jamey were in. ;D
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Given the opportunity to play three Lester George designs in three different settings, I thought I should actually spend a little time talking about his architecture. Ballyhack, Kinloch and Providence are three very different golf courses but I found some similarities that I thought were interesting and unique. If anyone has pictures to illustrate this discussion I would appreciate them being posted.
Similarities
1. Green orientation and slope - More than other modern courses I have played, the green slopes require a particular angle to attack pins. The penalty for approaching from the wrong angle is severe – one needs to dump the ball to the wide side of the green and face a very difficult two putt.
2. Multiple options – often the courses provide bright line options rather than gradual – almost a hybrid of target and strategic golf in that one needs to make a decision as to the line he chooses but once that choice is made, the individual shot becomes a target shot. Some examples I can recall:
Kinloch (from Kinloch website)
2
(http://kinlochgolfclub.com/_filelib/ImageGallery/The_course_/Kinloch_2RT.jpg)
9
(http://kinlochgolfclub.com/_filelib/ImageGallery/The_course_/Kinloch_9J.jpg)
11
(http://kinlochgolfclub.com/_filelib/ImageGallery/The_course_/Kinloch_11MTPL.jpg)
15
(http://kinlochgolfclub.com/_filelib/ImageGallery/The_course_/Kinloch_15.jpg)
Ballyhack: 6, 8, 15
Providence 4, 8, 10, 12, 18
This approach forces the player to make a number of decisions but does not have the subtlety of a course with gradual changes in risks and rewards for gradual changes in the line one chooses.
3. Forced carries –
Ballyhack has them in some form on nearly every hole with more significant carries on 1, 4, 6, 8, 11, 14, 15 and 16
At Kinloch there are few forced carries but the player will give up nearly a full stroke by playing conservative
Providence features several but none are real significant unless one is playing from the back tee
4. Unique contour to the greens. I am not quite sure how to describe them other than a lot of convex lobes, with a number of backstops available to help the player. I suspect that once one knows where to place the ball, iron play at these courses becomes much easier and and a blast to play.
Implementation varies considerably between the courses but the theme seemed similar to me:
– Wild at Ballyhack
- More muted at Kinloch but the muted contour is offset by the speed of the greens
- More muted at Providence but significant enough to have a large impact on play
5. A number of change ups – where the common decision options one faces on a golf course are reversed:
a. Layup yields better angle – 15 at Ballyhack – the layup off the tee also provides a shorter shot; 9 at Kinloch – at least to the left side pin we played;
b. Apparent safe option is not really more conservative than the apparent aggressive option. Safer alternative is to hit it at the green - Kinoch
c. Providence 7 – wide side of fairway is probably the only way to get the ball close – at least to the pin we played.
6. Long distances from the 9th green to the 10th tee
I would guess there was at least a half mile between the 9th green and the 10th tee on each of these courses. Such a distance makes perfect sense at Ballyhack given it was designed to be a cart golf course. At Kinloch it probably is not a big deal because of the service the club provides – ensuring a ride will be available. It hurts the course the most at Providence, as it serves to detract from walking – something I think a public facility should accommodate.
Based on one weekend’s exposure, I found Lester’s approach to design to be very engaging. Kinloch is a world class golf course. Ballyhack is a bold design that will be loved or hated by most. The combination of severe slopes, the target nature of the fairways, the wild green contours and the firm and fast conditions will prove too difficult for many. It reminds me of Stoneeagle in that respect with the crucial difference being the amount of effective width and the penalty for going astray. It will be interesting to see whether or not the course is ultimately embraced. I hope it is.
Providence is simply and outstanding public golf course that anyone will enjoy. Its nature is best reflected by the combination of a Special Olympian dressed in a clown costume excited to start a competition at the same time a tight Dixie cup match is being decided by a wedge that lands at the back of the 18th green and creeps backwards towards the hole.
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Lou Duran, Mike Hamilton, Van Renick (Director of Sales at Ballyhack and quite a partner), and me - trying to stay warm in the midst of a match and still confused about stroke allocation on the 9th hole:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/dixie%20cup%202011/dixiecup2011028.jpg)
Mike is about to have a near death experience due to my power shank on 9.
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I was fortunate enough at the Dixie Cup to join in two rounds of the the fun of Topp's Travels 2011...I had not met or played with Jason before and it was a great pleasure!
I think the best moment was when I saw Jason trudging up to the 7th tee at Kinloch in 38/39 degree weather in his rainsuit and Gilligan hat sipping a cold Coor's Light. Truly an inspiring moment.
Just to get the record straight, although I witnessed Jason's power shank whiz past me on Ballyhack's ninth (a definite near miss), I watched it shoot about a foot over Lou's head. Lou had his back to Jason, oblivious to the danger. If he had been struck, I'm certain he would not have sunk his eagle second from 185 out 3 holes later....that would have been quite a tragedy!
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I have one more round ahead of me this year but thought I should wrap up this thread by saying thank you.
As I reflect, it is interesting to me where golf course architecture ranks in my memory bank.
While I love seeing new places, my strongest memories from the year are of the people I encountered. I came up with 116 separate people that I played golf with in 2011.
Weather comes second. It was not the best year on that front. I played in 31.6 degree weather with snow flurries and in 96 degree heat with a dew point of 82.
The beauty of the places I visited comes third. Some views that will linger:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010272.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Maui%202011/April152010286.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Austin%202011/AustinTX012.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/Ledgesshortpar4.jpg)
Architecture rates somewhere below those items.
I learned the following while writing this thread:
1. Writing is tough
2. I hate taking pictures while playing golf
3. I am not the fastest golfer around or even the second fastest – Cory Lewis and Sam Morrow both have me beat although I might be able to catch Sam walking.
4. There are a lot of terrific people on the golf course
5. If I am playing poorly I have the capability to injure others – didn’t happen but easily could have this year
6. Golf courses cannot be wide enough to allow all to keep the ball in play
7. Minnesota golf is terrific – for quality of golf course, I would rather play here than any destination I visited this year.
8. Weather matters a lot.
9. I suck at golf when I play a lot. My golf marathons this year resulted in some really poor golf.
10. I am very lucky to be married to someone that allows me to do all this stuff.
Thank you to those that organized trips, played golf with me, entertained me and tortured me along the way. Thanks to those in the industry that are struggling to keep alive a wonderful game despite the headwinds of a tough economy and changing recreational habits.
Most of all, thank you to my wife Claire who not only allows me to pursue my passion for the game but encourages me to do so:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/India023.jpg)
I hope everyone has a terrific holiday season and an enjoyable 2012.
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I'm nimble for a fat guy.
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I have one more round ahead of me this year but thought I should wrap up this thread by saying thank you.
While I love seeing new places, my strongest memories from the year are of the people I encountered. I came up with 116 separate people that I played golf with in 2011.
Most of all, thank you to my wife Claire who not only allows me to pursue my passion for the game but encourages me to do so:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Travels%202011/India023.jpg)
I hope everyone has a terrific holiday season and an enjoyable 2012.
What Fazio course is in the background of your final picture?
On your second point, certainly you jest. 116 people? You really counted?
The blessings of an enabling wife cannot be understated or overappreciated.
Thanks for taking the time to share your wonderful experiences and insights, and a very Merry Christmans and Happy New Year to you and yours as well. We are blessed by your participation on the site and your company at the various events. May 2012 be even better.
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Jason,
Believe it or not Sam and I are going to be partners at The 5th Major. Can you imagine us playing against another team on the course? I think the over/under for somebody taking a swing at one of us is probably the 8th hole. Happy Holidays.
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Jason,
Believe it or not Sam and I are going to be partners at The 5th Major. Can you imagine us playing against another team on the course? I think the over/under for somebody taking a swing at one of us is probably the 8th hole. Happy Holidays.
What the hell? People like me, it's not my fault that you're a dick.
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Jason,
Believe it or not Sam and I are going to be partners at The 5th Major. Can you imagine us playing against another team on the course? I think the over/under for somebody taking a swing at one of us is probably the 8th hole. Happy Holidays.
What the hell? People like me, it's not my fault that you're a dick.
I meant our pace of play genius.
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Jason,
Believe it or not Sam and I are going to be partners at The 5th Major. Can you imagine us playing against another team on the course? I think the over/under for somebody taking a swing at one of us is probably the 8th hole. Happy Holidays.
What the hell? People like me, it's not my fault that you're a dick.
I meant our pace of play genius.
You're very standoffish, I saw your post earlier. ;D
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Jason,
Believe it or not Sam and I are going to be partners at The 5th Major. Can you imagine us playing against another team on the course? I think the over/under for somebody taking a swing at one of us is probably the 8th hole. Happy Holidays.
What the hell? People like me, it's not my fault that you're a dick.
I meant our pace of play genius.
You're very standoffish, I saw your post earlier. ;D
It is this sort of enlightened discourse that has made the year a pleasure.
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Thanks for your thread this year Jason, it's been fun following. Looking forward to the 2012 edition :)
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On your second point, certainly you jest. 116 people? You really counted?
Lou - I could identify 116. I suspect the actual number is a bit larger.
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Yep, been a fun thread to follow Jason. Thanks for sharing. BTW, did you travel to India with your wife as well?
Edit - I reread the page 1 post.
Interesting enough, my wife went there this year - for 16 days! Adding up my golf trips I spent 18 days away without having to put up a fight. Thank you India!
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Jason,
Believe it or not Sam and I are going to be partners at The 5th Major. Can you imagine us playing against another team on the course? I think the over/under for somebody taking a swing at one of us is probably the 8th hole. Happy Holidays.
What the hell? People like me, it's not my fault that you're a dick.
I meant our pace of play genius.
You're very standoffish, I saw your post earlier. ;D
It is this sort of enlightened discourse that has made the year a pleasure.
You will never think of Sweet-n-Lo in the same way.
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Yep, been a fun thread to follow Jason. Thanks for sharing. BTW, did you travel to India with your wife as well?
Edit - I reread the page 1 post.
Interesting enough, my wife went there this year - for 16 days! Adding up my golf trips I spent 18 days away without having to put up a fight. Thank you India!
The make up trip - always a solid fundamental strategy for the married golf traveller. Claire travels to some great destinations for work. I am hoping that, once the kids are out of the house, I will be able to create some win/win trips where she earns money and I spend it.
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Weather comes second. It was not the best year on that front. I played in 31.6 degree weather with snow flurries and in 96 degree heat with a dew point of 82.
And both of those were in Minnesota, right?
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Weather comes second. It was not the best year on that front. I played in 31.6 degree weather with snow flurries and in 96 degree heat with a dew point of 82.
And both of those were in Minnesota, right?
Yes. I was about 50/50 on the road. It was cold in Florida, Texas and Virgina. It was nice in Hawaii, Utah, Iowa and Mississippi.
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I learned the following while writing this thread:
1. Writing is tough
10. I am very lucky to be married to someone that allows me to do all this stuff.
Jason --
I think these are in the wrong order!
It's been fun playing with you, dining with you, and following along on your travels.
Thanks.
Dan
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What Fazio course is in the background of your final picture?
Lou, that's not a Fazio course. It's a Trump.
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Good work Jason. I'm happy to have been part of the 116.
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Jason,
I second the sentiments. I really enjoyed playing with you this year and following your travels. Definitely do another 2012 version.
Shane
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Weather comes second. It was not the best year on that front. I played in 31.6 degree weather with snow flurries and in 96 degree heat with a dew point of 82.
And both of those were in Minnesota, right?
Virginia, the Dixie Cup. I played two rounds where I never felt my hands. Tough on the short game!
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Weather comes second. It was not the best year on that front. I played in 31.6 degree weather with snow flurries and in 96 degree heat with a dew point of 82.
And both of those were in Minnesota, right?
Virginia, the Dixie Cup. I played two rounds where I never felt my hands. Tough on the short game!
Bill
I actually had a colder day in Minnesota. It was an interclub match or else I would not have played.
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Weather comes second. It was not the best year on that front. I played in 31.6 degree weather with snow flurries and in 96 degree heat with a dew point of 82.
And both of those were in Minnesota, right?
Virginia, the Dixie Cup. I played two rounds where I never felt my hands. Tough on the short game!
Bill
I actually had a colder day in Minnesota. It was an interclub match or else I would not have played.
Real golfers are tough!
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Based on that drive from Oak Ridge to Spencer, IA, I wish it would have been 115.
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What Fazio course is in the background of your final picture?
Lou, that's not a Fazio course. It's a Trump.
We are a golf architecture website, not a business journal, Rick. Of course I recognized that it must have been part of the Trump International franchise, though it looks like the clubhouse will need a complete redo to meet the owner's standards. The site just screams Fazio to me.
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8) Jason,
Claire must see some redeeming value.. :o
Was good to see you again in Biloxi.. have a great 2012 !
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Based on that drive from Oak Ridge to Spencer, IA, I wish it would have been 115.
New Years resolution fpr you - learn to drive a stick shift.
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Weather comes second. It was not the best year on that front. I played in 31.6 degree weather with snow flurries and in 96 degree heat with a dew point of 82.
And both of those were in Minnesota, right?
Virginia, the Dixie Cup. I played two rounds where I never felt my hands. Tough on the short game!
Just to defend ourselves...fall is usually great golf here. Sometimes winter. I played Providence again yesterday with my two sons and a neighbor wearing shorts and short sleeves. Just a freaky late Oct storm for the DC...but a great time. Thanks for the fun reading Jason and hope to get to join you again in 2012!
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FYI - Topp's Travels have come south of the border.
Be kind Jason - better times ahead.
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FYI - Topp's Travels have come south of the border.
Be kind Jason - better times ahead.
Ask him what he calls his wifes car.
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Due to a change in work schedule, I was able to join my family for a final trip in 2011. Thanks to the fun of holiday travel and a mechanical problem we spent Christmas Eve and Christmas Day flying from Minneapolis to Phoenix to Salt Lake City to Atlanta to Cabo San Lucas. I appreciated Pat Mucci’s link to the Norad Santa tracker so that I could make sure we did not collide during the night.
The Cabo area has endured a number of challenges to its tourist business – (1) the economy; (2) the H1N1 scare (3) Violence in other areas of Mexico and (4) a lack of rainfall resulting in decreased quality irrigation water. While these factors are tough for the locals, they also provide opportunity for us to experience a wonderful destination that is eager to attract visitors.
A thrill during the trip involved catching a Striped Marlin in the Sea of Cortez with my son. My experience with such fishing was limited to watching old Wide World of Sports episodes involving B-List celebrities in very short shorts. In real life, Marlin fishing is more akin to hunting. You drive around looking for a fin and then throw out bait to entice the trophy. Our first target got away within minutes. Our second was a shark that put up a ferocious fight before figuring out how to bite the line.
Our third attempt was the charm. After getting the marlin near the boat 3 times, I allowed my son to wrestle with the thing. It took him about 15 minutes to get the job done. The captain encouraged us to keep the fish for a trophy and we agreed. I quickly regretted that decision with the dull thud of a club against the head of such a magnificent creature. The captain then urged us to have the fish mounted as a trophy. The Captain was quite vague about the cost but given my new status as a murderer I knew I was stuck. I paid a hefty deposit and read the fine print later – both the cost and the fact that the trophy would likely be a replica ensured this trophy will serve the purpose of providing a memory learned the hard way. Nonetheless, pictures like this temper the guilt:
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/409566_2447247626833_1421190280_2068436_1466933530_n.jpg)
During the trip I played one round at the Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol. The Ocean Course is a fabulous experience, made the more so by an opportunity to meet the Director of Golf – our own Greg Tallman. The Ocean Course presents a unique experience of desert golf with ocean views. The 18th is a serious contender for one of the best closing holes anywhere. It is around 430 yards along the beach with a green that bears some resemblance to the 17th at the Old Course.
Ran’s write up is a wonderful overview. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/mexico/cabodelsol2/
These pictures of the 18th are stolen from him:
Tee shot:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/CDS18t.jpg)
Approach:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/CDS18a2.jpg)
I strategically handled this hole by hitting my tee shot on the beach, a recovery shot on the back portion of the green and then four putting. It was an appropriate finish to a wildly inconsistent year of golf.
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Congrats on the big catch Jason! I'm assuming you're having it stuffed and placing it on your office wall? ;)
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Office wall?
No, that's certainly worthy of a spot over the fireplace in the living room.
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I have a couple of faux mounted marlins about the size of Jason's catch that I recently picked up at a garage sale. Unlike Jason's fish there are no missing rays on the dorsal fin. I'll take $39 each if anybody wants one. I'll even throw in a free GCA.com 5th anniversary poster. Let me know.
Bogey
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Jason,
From firsthand experience in Cabo, in 2002, I can tell you that the price of said mount of the marlin will most likely increase at least once before it arrives. Delayed.
Mine, my first marlin, arrived in a large wooden crate left outside my garage in a rain or snowstrorm by the carrier. Don't think it was UPS or FedEx as the crate was so large, I believe it was a (tractor trailer) freight carrier. Nonetheless, I have it in my office proudly displayed. However, since then, catch and release. But congrats, it was an amazing experience for me.
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Jason,
From firsthand experience in Cabo, in 2002, I can tell you that the price of said mount of the marlin will most likely increase at least once before it arrives. Delayed.
Mine, my first marlin, arrived in a large wooden crate left outside my garage in a rain or snowstrorm by the carrier. Don't think it was UPS or FedEx as the crate was so large, I believe it was a (tractor trailer) freight carrier. Nonetheless, I have it in my office proudly displayed. However, since then, catch and release. But congrats, it was an amazing experience for me.
Did the crate say "FRAGILE" on the side? Must have been a "major award" from Italy! 8)
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Jason, Here is what you can expect. It is big.
Turned out great. Best part was taking the filets to Nik-San's. We ate for 2 nights.
They quoted me $xx when I paid the deposit dockside. I got a letter later saying it was now $xx + y. If you declined at this point, you lost your deposit. No refund. But that was 2002. It was a lot of fun on the boat reeling it in.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/COLLETON/photo-4-2.jpg)
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Well done Mr. Topp! Nice looking boy. I sure hope my son doesn't see this thread. For years I've been preaching how lucky he is for the experiences he's been exposed to. In comparison, the one-pound mingos off Destin or the 10" brook trouts in Yellowstone he landed would seem pitiful. We did enjoy eating the mess of mingos we caught on that trip. Lots of fun and great memories.
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How about turning it into a hood ornament? Maybe a bit large and gaudy, but definitely attention grabbing.
Lou,
I think you & Jason both have the right idea about experiences. Lucky kids.
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(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/409566_2447247626833_1421190280_2068436_1466933530_n.jpg)
The real trophy is that lug in the background. Nice work, Dad.
Perhaps I should add: Well caught, Mrs. T!
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we spent Christmas Eve and Christmas Day flying from Minneapolis to Phoenix to Salt Lake City to Atlanta to Cabo San Lucas.
Didn't Chevy Chase make a holiday comedy movie similar to that plot!!!
I hope I can make the elite 116 next year. It wasn't in the cards this year. It would be cool to pick you up on the way to Nebraska next fall!
I've got a hunch I'll be seeing you sooner, check you IM.