Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on February 09, 2011, 08:33:27 PM
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hosting a US Open, PGA or for that matter, any PGA Tour event ?
How have they been improved, architecturally ?
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getting the us open might have promoted the interest in pinehurst no 2, leading to Coore Crenshaw recent work
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I would turn it around: has any classic course ever been improved by changes made to host a USGA or PGA event?
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Torrey Pines has certainly been improved. I thought it was pretty bad before the renovation and after - I didn't think it was bad, just really boring.
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I would turn it around: has any classic course ever been improved by changes made to host a USGA or PGA event?
Bethpage Black.
It has turned into a Mecca now for the almost 2 handicap and may be the hardest course to get on in New York if you are 6'6" and don't want to sleep in a SUV but there is no question it is an amazing course due to the US Open. Could it be better? Yes.
There is a part of me that misses the days when you could walk up because it was "walking only" and the bunkers has wet concrete in them, but again it is now a better course. Check out what Shivas stated:
Bethpage Black. Sure I heard it was great. But I didn't realize how great. I liked it better than Oakmont, the only other US Open venue I've played (until June when Torrey gets added to my list). And I just love playing a walking only course.
Jason, I'm with you on Bethpage Black. That was probably my biggest pleasant surprise. I figured it was all typical New York hype going in...
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TPC Sawgrass has reaped great benefits by hosting the Players Championship.
When it opened it was considered to be grotesque and too hard even for the best in the world. Over the years many of the more crazed green contours and murderous pot bunkers have been removed.
The course is still considered absurdly difficult for your average golfer. I can only imagine what it was like in 1982.
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I would say that Tom Fazio's redesign of the Quail Hollow Club was a huge improvement over what was there before.
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Were Gil Hanse's changes to the TPC Boston due to criticism from the PGA pros? If so, it appears to be a much better course.
TK
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It seems many courses have undergone restoration projects shortly before hosting big tour events, namely Aronomink, Plainfield, Sedgefield and Greenbrier off the top of my head. Given the lead time before hosting a PGA or Senior Tour event, I imagine these tournaments served as a catalyst to getting the projects rolling and completed in a timely fashion.
TK
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Oak Hill East (cough, phlegm)
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Tyler,
I can second Aronimink...so long as a couple years lead time is granted...which is not unreasonable. Much wider corridors, better conditioning due in large part to those wider corridors, and a committment to a maintenance program that will make Aronimink a steady favorite of Tour caliber players and, so long as the rought is thinned, the rest of us.
Aronimink used to be good, it is now great.
Merion's #5 is a better hole now for high level players. Does this translate to the whole course? Not sure. None of the holes that have been lengthened in preparation for their recent and pending USGA dates are worse holes in themselves, but I think the compact, precise routing has become overcrowded or jam-packed when the back tees are primary.
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Shawnee.
It opened at 6,011 yards. The next year, after hosting the 1st Shawnee Open at which only regional professionals attended, in 1913 it was expanded to more than 6,500 yards and professionals from everywhere, including those who would be defeated by Ouimet in the Open later that year, Messrs. Vardon and Ray, would FIRST LOSE here to J.J. McDermott, arguably the most talented American player in the teens. It would host the 1919 U.S. Women's Championship and of course the Shawnee Open would continue into the 1930s with ALL of the great players of those years competing in it. In 1938, now at nearly 7,000 yards in length, it would host the PGA Championship which would be won by Lawson Little beating Sam Snead in the finals. Most are unaware that Snead was the PGA Professional at Shawnee during the mid-late 1930s...
Fred Waring would basically gut the course after buying the Inn and course and expanding it to 27 holes...
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Please indicate if you've played the course you've cited pre and post renovation for an Open, PGA or PGA Tour event.
And, please indicate HOW the course was improved.
Thanks
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TPC Sawgrass has reaped great benefits by hosting the Players Championship.
That wasn't the question.
TPC Sawgrass was designed to host PGA Tour events.
The question was/is,:
what courses have been improved, architecturally by hosting a US Open, PGA or for that matter, any PGA Tour event ?
How have they been improved, architecturally [/b]
When it opened it was considered to be grotesque and too hard even for the best in the world. Over the years many of the more crazed green contours and murderous pot bunkers have been removed.
The course is still considered absurdly difficult for your average golfer. I can only imagine what it was like in 1982.
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Sorry Pat, but I'm not that old to have played Shawnee before and after...
"Please indicate if you've played the course you've cited pre and post renovation for an Open, PGA or PGA Tour event. And, please indicate HOW the course was improved."
But if you'd like to know how it was improved, you can read about it in the chapter titled "The Evolution of a True Championship Course" when the book comes out in May... It begins on Page 31 as shown below...
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/ShawneeTweak.jpg)
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Pat,
Last year I played two professional event venues.
We went around the lower course at Baltusrol in September and they were doing major renovations of the bunkering on holes 14 and 15, mostly deepening and reshaping. It seems that the club has a perpetual improvement program in place in order to "keep up". The question is "where do you say enough is enough?" The answer is "never". Will it result in architectural improvement remains to be seen.
Played a match at Aronimink in October and had not seen the course in 15 years. Wow!, the architect did a wonderful job of bringing the Ross'yness back to a course that had been mangled, in my opinion, over several prior renovations. Is it my favorite Ross course?, not by a long shot. Yet, it is one tough set of 18 holes with a lot more character than it used to have even though it os still not a track that you won't struggle to remember certain holes . The green complexes are original, I think, but the club now mows down and around to create a vexing array of chipping areas which, combined with the wild contours and slopes of the greens require a lot of imagination. I could see a major here someday.
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Malcolm,
What is it about Aronimink that makes individual hole recognition difficult?
I'm not arguing your point, because as I read your post I had to do a little thinking, but the holes are not redundant...what do you think it is?
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Phil,
I did play Shawnee in the 50's.
My dad used to get invited by Fred Waring and he took me along.
Malcolm & Jim,
Was Ron Prichard's work for the club in general or specifically for preparation for an event ?
I always thought it was independent of any event, but, I'm not that familiar with the club/work.
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Pat, how has Mountain Ridge been affected architecturally by next year's US Senior Am?
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Jim,
I wish I knew, exactly.
When I first played Aronimink the only holes I could remember were the first, eighth and seventeenth.
When I played it again this past October it was the same three holes that stood out. The rest of them require harder work to conjure up. Nine and 18 playing back to the clubhouse sort of mirror one another. The rest is kinda parkland golf like I see all around Philadelphia.
My most vivid memories of my last round revolve around the green complexes which are amazing.
I would have to blame the land and the routing overall for my blah-ness. However, to reemphasize, it is one tough track.
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Bethpage Black. I played in the 90s on numerous car trips up in the middle of the nite from S. Jersey. I'll never forget pulling up to the clubhouse at 3:00 am and seeing a line of people standing at the clubhouse door waiting for a tee time. I was not only silly enough to do this once but at least a dozen times.
Pre US Open I feel the course was actually tougher. In mid summer that ground was so hard a tee could not be pushed into the ground without it breaking. The fairways and greens were harder than the Southern State Parkway. I always scored well there but after the renovation I found the course to be much more playable (and fair). Therefore overall less difficult but in a good way. Unfortunately the USGA Open Championship has led to more worldwide appeal, higher demand = higher greens fees, and the out of state access to the course is much more difficult bc walk on tee times are next to impossible to obtain unless you are a single. 1994 round of golf was $12 weekday. 2002 right before the Open was $85. 2010 green fee weekend = $150. Price gouging in NY......naaaaaa!!!!! :-)
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Pat,
Was the work done at Aronimink done specifically in preparation for an event?
I do not have an inside track to answer that question.
Yet, when I played 15 years ago I was a guest of a longtime member and he went on at length as to how the greens committee was unhappy with how past revisions had altered the course. It was Ross's original intentions that the greens should be receptive to running ground approaches and that had been lost under previous renovations.
My best guess is that the membership wanted to undo some of the previous, unsympathetic, renovations first and foremost. If the PGA came to them after that so be it. If rumor has it, the Aronimink board was not one to cater to the PGA .
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I would say that the restoration of the Old White Course at the Greenbrier is one of the great success stories in this regard.
With Lester George leading the way, a great many ancient Macdonald and Raynor features were recovered, and drainage was improved drastically.
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Pat,
Last year I played two professional event venues.
We went around the lower course at Baltusrol in September and they were doing major renovations of the bunkering on holes 14 and 15, mostly deepening and reshaping. It seems that the club has a perpetual improvement program in place in order to "keep up". The question is "where do you say enough is enough?" The answer is "never". Will it result in architectural improvement remains to be seen.
Played a match at Aronimink in October and had not seen the course in 15 years. Wow!, the architect did a wonderful job of bringing the Ross'yness back to a course that had been mangled, in my opinion, over several prior renovations. Is it my favorite Ross course?, not by a long shot. Yet, it is one tough set of 18 holes with a lot more character than it used to have even though it os still not a track that you won't struggle to remember certain holes . The green complexes are original, I think, but the club now mows down and around to create a vexing array of chipping areas which, combined with the wild contours and slopes of the greens require a lot of imagination. I could see a major here someday.
Malcolm,
Do you realize that Baltusrol hosted several USGA events before Tillie was hired to improve the course?
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East Lake came back from the dead with the help of major donors, corporations, and the PGA Tour.
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John,
I'll admit I am not a scholar on the full history at Baltusrol.
Did Louis Keller fashion the original layout himself or did he have assistance? I would love to see pictures of the original design pre-Tillie.
I hope I didn't sound critical of the endless revisions there. My point was that they never stop. Every year there is something new to contemplate. When I played the lower last fall they were just laying the sod on the new deepened Bunkers on 14 and 15 and to be honest I couldn't tell what to think. I did like the changes to how the 18th fairway incorporate the creek.
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My history of Baltusrol is on loan so I can not speak to specifics.
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How much better is Oakmont now vs when Fazio renovated it before the 2007 Open?
I heard complaints about the FW bunker depth but the rest of he course looked solid.
BTW - the tree's came out waay before that.
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Pete Dye's 1985 recontouring of some of the Crooked Stick greens in preparation for the 1991 PGA Championship was a subtle and sensitive improvement.
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Malcolm,
Louis Keller didn't play golf and didn't design the original 9-hole course. He hired George Hunter to do this. He would later become a member and served on the Board of Governors.
The routing below is taken from the June 16, 1895 issue of The Sun:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Baltusrol9-hole.jpg)
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Pat, how has Mountain Ridge been affected architecturally by next year's US Senior Am?
It hasn't been affected "architecturally"
It may have been affected, in terms of accelerating work already planned.
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Perhaps one of the members can speak better about this, but wasn't the recent renovation of Plainfield motivated by the desire to host a PGA Tour event (a WGC event). Based on the photos of before and after, I would say the course has been improved greatly.
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Malcolm & Jim,
Was Ron Prichard's work for the club in general or specifically for preparation for an event ?
I always thought it was independent of any event, but, I'm not that familiar with the club/work.
Not 100% sure, but they hosted a US Junior in about 1998 and a Senior PGA Championship in about '03 and now the AT&T event in '10 and '11 due to a partnership of sorts with Congressional. I think the work was planned and completed in the late 90's early 2000's.
I think the ultimate goal is likely a major but I can't be sure.
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I think Plainfield would make a great course for the PGA or a Ryder Cup
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getting the us open might have promoted the interest in pinehurst no 2, leading to Coore Crenshaw recent work
The US Open may have contribnuted to the degradation of #2, particularly the narrowing of fairways and elimination of angles.
Where did the impetus for restoring #2 come from, since it sounds like some of the US Open style features - i.e. rough lines - are being removed? The course was commercially very successful even as the architecture deteriorated - $400 a pop and pretty much full all the time.
A US Open sans rough - which the USGA appears to have embraced - is an exciting prospect.
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I'll admit to only paying a little attention to the Pinehurst evolution so this is a sincere comment...if the USGA is embracing a roughless US Open (or even close to it) the world of golf will be turned on its ear...especially at a place like Pinehurst. Could be the most important positive impact a televised event will ever have on the perception of how the game should be played.
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getting the us open might have promoted the interest in pinehurst no 2, leading to Coore Crenshaw recent work
The US Open may have contribnuted to the degradation of #2, particularly the narrowing of fairways and elimination of angles.
Phil,
I couldn't agree more.
Bringing the Open to Pinehurst # 2 ruined that golf course.
But, I've only been playing it for 50 years.[/b]
Where did the impetus for restoring #2 come from, since it sounds like some of the US Open style features - i.e. rough lines - are being removed? The course was commercially very successful even as the architecture deteriorated - $400 a pop and pretty much full all the time.
A US Open sans rough - which the USGA appears to have embraced - is an exciting prospect.
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How about Donald Ross’ changes to Pinehurst No. 2 before the 1936 PGA?
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Bethpage Black.
It has turned into a Mecca now for the almost 2 handicap and may be the hardest course to get on in New York if you are 6'6" and don't want to sleep in a SUV but there is no question it is an amazing course due to the US Open. Could it be better? Yes.
There is a part of me that misses the days when you could walk up because it was "walking only" and the bunkers has wet concrete in them, but again it is now a better course.
What changes were made to the original design that improved the course architecturally?
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Egan & Co.'s redesign of Pebble Beach prior to the 1929 US Am and Colt's redesign of Muirfield prior to the 1926 British Am.
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Malcolm & Jim,
Was Ron Prichard's work for the club in general or specifically for preparation for an event ?
I always thought it was independent of any event, but, I'm not that familiar with the club/work.
Not 100% sure, but they hosted a US Junior in about 1998 and a Senior PGA Championship in about '03 and now the AT&T event in '10 and '11 due to a partnership of sorts with Congressional. I think the work was planned and completed in the late 90's early 2000's.
I wasn't involved in the actual discussions of undoing the RTJ and Fazio features to the course, but I think it was a mix of wanting to bring the original Donald Ross design intent back with an eye to a hosting future USGA and PGA events... and the AT&T is definitely seen as a springboard to major.
I think the ultimate goal is likely a major but I can't be sure.
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I would turn it around: has any classic course ever been improved by changes made to host a USGA or PGA event?
Bill, please read the second sentence in my original post.
That's what I asked.
So, to those of you who responded,
HOW have those courses been improved "architecturally"
What specific changes improved those courses ?