Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Morgan Stephenson on January 11, 2011, 02:55:39 PM
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I'm traveling to Las Vegas at the end of Jan. early Feb. and playing Wolf Creek. I can't wait to see this part of the country as I have never been there. I was checking out Las Vegas on google earth and noticed that on a 1965 aerial there were golf courses where MGM Grand is now located. There are some other courses that do not exist anymore but not sure what is there now. Anyone have any idea about the courses that were sacrificed for development of the "strip"? I also need to book one more round for Tues. Feb 1st if anyone has suggestions for a course close to the city.
Morgan Stephenson
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Morgan:
Try Boulder Creek -- close to town and very reasonable for rates. 27-holes there.
One other thing -- when going to Wolf Creek be sure to hoof all the way back to the tip tees at the 2nd at WC. I don't expect you to play from there but the view is akin to Dante's infernal abyss. Ditto on the 8th hole -- best bet when playing is from the middle tees unless you have need to donate a few balls ! ;D
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Thanks Matt,
The golf course looks visually stunning. I hope I can take my eyes off of the scenery long enough to hit the ball! I'll look into Boulder Creek as well. Thanks again.
Morgan
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I was checking out Las Vegas on google earth and noticed that on a 1965 aerial there were golf courses where MGM Grand is now located. There are some other courses that do not exist anymore but not sure what is there now. Anyone have any idea about the courses that were sacrificed for development of the "strip"?
I was there on honeymoon and we did the helicopter trip to the Grand Canyon. In the departure lounge at Sundance helicopters they had photos on the wall taken every so many years, and I noticed the same. No idea about the answer though,
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Of the courses I played there I liked the Wolf Course at Paiute Reservation the best and Primm Valley 2nd taking into account cost and quality. Primm has two courses, I think I played the Lakes course but the other course is reputed to be as good or better.
Shadow Creek is a great experience as well but costs an arm and a leg.
Wolf Creek is a very polarizing course. I dislike it but agree that it is very unique visually and I will be interested in what you think.
Have fun. The time I was there in January it was in the 20's in the morning but enjoyable weather in the afternoon.
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Paiute Wolf!!!
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I'm traveling to Las Vegas at the end of Jan. early Feb. and playing Wolf Creek. I can't wait to see this part of the country as I have never been there. I was checking out Las Vegas on google earth and noticed that on a 1965 aerial there were golf courses where MGM Grand is now located. There are some other courses that do not exist anymore but not sure what is there now. Anyone have any idea about the courses that were sacrificed for development of the "strip"? I also need to book one more round for Tues. Feb 1st if anyone has suggestions for a course close to the city.
Morgan Stephenson
First trip? Are you going with a lady friend? Don't take your clubs, when we went a year and a half ago I didn't take the clubs and was glad. Walked the grounds at The Wynn Golf Club, POS. Spend your money on food and shopping, if you are going by yourself or other guys then spend it on hookers and blow.
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I'm traveling to Las Vegas at the end of Jan. early Feb. and playing Wolf Creek. I can't wait to see this part of the country as I have never been there. I was checking out Las Vegas on google earth and noticed that on a 1965 aerial there were golf courses where MGM Grand is now located. There are some other courses that do not exist anymore but not sure what is there now. Anyone have any idea about the courses that were sacrificed for development of the "strip"? I also need to book one more round for Tues. Feb 1st if anyone has suggestions for a course close to the city.
Morgan Stephenson
First trip? Are you going with a lady friend? Don't take your clubs, when we went a year and a half ago I didn't take the clubs and was glad. Walked the grounds at The Wynn Golf Club, POS. Spend your money on food and shopping, if you are going by yourself or other guys then spend it on hookers and blow.
Sam-I don`t think genius is too strong an adjective to describe the advice you rendered above. Do you own a travel agency? ;)
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Morgan:
Be forewarned -- when playing Wolf at Paiute the wind speeds can be a quite BREEEEEEEEEZY in the afternoon time period.
Primm is a good choice as others have mentioned.
If you need another option -- heading over to St. George when you finish w Wolf Creek can provide a few other options. I'd recommend Sandy Hollow as a clear cut must play if you have the inclination to head just a further east of Mesquite.
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I was checking out Las Vegas on google earth and noticed that on a 1965 aerial there were golf courses where MGM Grand is now located. There are some other courses that do not exist anymore but not sure what is there now. Anyone have any idea about the courses that were sacrificed for development of the "strip"?
I think the Saraha and the Dunes both had a golf courses right off the strip that are NLE.
I think the Wynn occupies the site of what was the Desert Inn golf club.
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I would see if you can get on Southern Highlands. It's not Shadow Creek. It's a lot like staying in one of the "other" Vegas hotels, a lot of flash, good fun, not the greatest but it will do just fine.
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The Dunes Golf Course sat just off I-15, between Tropicana and Flamingo Roads. Some of it's land was used in constructing New York, New York, City Center, and the Bellagio. The course you saw where MGM Grand stands used to be the Tropicana Golf Course. The old Sahara Golf Course is now called the Las Vegas National.
Shadow Creek stands alone at the top of my list here in Las Vegas. If you are interested in playing DragonRidge (Morrish-Druzisky) while in town, PM me.
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I'm headed there tomorrow and I was warned about the wind. I love wind but with cool temps it may be wise to hold off going to the windier sites. Has anyone been to Red Rock?
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Adam:
Given your discriminating tastes I would skip Red Rock. Decent AP design -- I like the private one a tad better but AP has done better design in other locations.
If you decide to head to The Wolf at Paiute -- be prepared -- 5-6 club wind is entirely possible out there -- especially late in the day.
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Thanks for the info everyone.
Sam,
I'm going with my wife who is there on business. However, that does sound like good advice if it were a guys' trip :). We're going to the Hoover dam on Sunday and she has a trade show on Mon. and Tues. thus the free time by myself for some golf. Really looking forward to seeing that part of the country.
Morgan
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First trip? Are you going with a lady friend? Don't take your clubs, when we went a year and a half ago I didn't take the clubs and was glad. Walked the grounds at The Wynn Golf Club, POS. Spend your money on food and shopping, if you are going by yourself or other guys then spend it on hookers and blow.
Sounds like the golf version of "Hangover".
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Southern Highlands is terrific, if you can get on there. Or Shadow Creek, of course. Rio Secco's not bad. Hope that helps. I've got a post on my website jeffwallach.com about nine of my favorites and individual stories on Shadow and Rio Secco.
I'm actually heading to Vegas this week-- but to play soccer, not golf! Okay, and maybe poker.
Cheers,
Jeff Wallach
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Morgan:
Just realize that a number of Jeff's recommendations require a hefty contribution. If you win at the tables you'll be paying the green fees with your winnings. ;D
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I'm traveling to Las Vegas at the end of Jan. early Feb. and playing Wolf Creek. I can't wait to see this part of the country as I have never been there. I was checking out Las Vegas on google earth and noticed that on a 1965 aerial there were golf courses where MGM Grand is now located. There are some other courses that do not exist anymore but not sure what is there now. Anyone have any idea about the courses that were sacrificed for development of the "strip"? I also need to book one more round for Tues. Feb 1st if anyone has suggestions for a course close to the city.
Morgan Stephenson
First trip? Are you going with a lady friend? Don't take your clubs, when we went a year and a half ago I didn't take the clubs and was glad. Walked the grounds at The Wynn Golf Club, POS. Spend your money on food and shopping, if you are going by yourself or other guys then spend it on hookers and blow.
Sam-I don`t think genius is too strong an adjective to describe the advice you rendered above. Do you own a travel agency? ;)
if only.......
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At one time I think Tony Lema owned a bar and maybe a course near where MGM Grand would be today.
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Morgan:
One other thing -- in Mesquite you also have the relatively new layout by Gary Panks called Conestoga Golf Club. Has a few of the same features found at Wolf Creek but the terrain is not as severe or perilous !
Worth checking out when there.
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Played \Wolf Creek yesterday and it was outstanding, until the 50mph winds made it very difficult. The 8th is the toughest par 3 anywhere! Wear sunglasses as there is sand in the air. Well worth visiting - the course is the designer's first and last course, so we were told.
We also played Badlands in Vegas and it was in good shape, F&F with very fast greens.
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Does Las Vegas have a last minute tee time website, where you can get discounted rates the day before?
I am going with a group of 6-8 in April that could care less about GCA. Need someplace where we can take cabs/shuttle and not overly expensive. Foe example Bali Hai would be fine course wise if it wasn't so expensive...
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Sean, the key is to have just one high-roller in your group. If you have that, the hotel will shuttle you anywhere you want and it will be all comped.
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Sean, the key is to have just one high-roller in your group. If you have that, the hotel will shuttle you anywhere you want and it will be all comped.
No whales in this group. Work dealio....
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Gary:
Great report.
What tee boxes did you play the 8th hole from ?
Did you venture to the champ tees at #2 -- at least for a look if not actual play.
You mention the wind speed when you played - what direction was the wind blowing from ? When you stood on the 1st tee which direction was the wind blowing?
I love Wolf Creek but the 18th there is almost as much a letdown concluding hole as the 18th at CP.
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Does Las Vegas have a last minute tee time website, where you can get discounted rates the day before?
I am going with a group of 6-8 in April that could care less about GCA. Need someplace where we can take cabs/shuttle and not overly expensive. Foe example Bali Hai would be fine course wise if it wasn't so expensive...
Sean, try golfnow.com, and lasvegasgolf.com
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Does last minute tickets have any golf deals? I think that's the name of the places where you can get tickets the day of shows for great rates. People line up early in the morning for it to open, I remember one in front of Bills, another in front of Casino Royale, and another one down south side of the strip, might have been down in that asian center between MGM and Planet Hollywood.
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No one has mentioned Cascata. It is a very good track at $300 versus $500 at Shadow Creek. Cascata is not walk-able whereas Shadow Creek can easily be walked. Also, all 3 Paiute courses are nice (Wolf is best). They have a pretty good deal to play all 54 holes for around $200.
I would play Cascata, Shadow Creek if you have the money and Paiute courses. Wolf Creek is 90 mins from the strip and just a bunch of eye candy golf holes. I was massively hungover when I played there but I could not figure out yardages -- very difficult with all the elevation changes and no idea where to aim on all the forced carries.
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Las Vegas GOlf Ranking
1) Shadow Creek (not by as much as you might think)
2) Southern Highlands
3) Rflection Bay (oops it is closed)
4) Pauite (Wolf) two sister courses are fun to play as well)
5) TPC Summerlin
6) South Shore @ Lake Las Vegas
7) PRim Valley (Lakes) Desert is worth it as well
8) Cascata
9) Boulder Creek
10) Coyote Springs (middle of no where)
11) Dragonridge
12) Bear's Best
13) Rio Secco
14) LV Country Club (recently redesigned)
15) Wolf Creek (at Mesquite (goofy course))
16) Badlands
Haven't played Wynn's course at LaRev adnd won't unless gratis. Not worth playing for a course doomed for destruction if economy ever recovers
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For value + quality, hard to beat Coyote Springs. It's a bit of a drive though (70 MPH speed limits make it not so bad though). I also really enjoyed Cascata and as Charlie mentioned, compared to the $500 green fee at SC, I prefer it. Enjoy Vegas (as if there's any way not to).
Mark
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On the off chance that anyone is around, I will be in Vegas and playing probably pauite and wolf creek nect weekend (26/3). Anyone welcome to join.
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David, I will be up there all next week for ConExpo (the man show).
Send me an email if your travels bring you there prior to the weekend, perhaps we can get a drink before I leave town.
Kyle Henderson mentioned that you are a proper access whore, I have 1 spot at Shadow Creek on Thursday. All I need is a purchase order for 6 figures, US.
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I second the recommendation of Coyote Springs. I played there twice last week. Greens are a little severe buthe course is a lot of fun. Pace of play is also better than other Vegas venues. On Sunday my son and I played were paired with a twosome at 12:30 PM and played in four hours - fast by Las Vegas standards. We played in three hours as a twosome (with some waiting) on a Wednesday. If you go, bring food with you.
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Gary:
Great report.
What tee boxes did you play the 8th hole from ?
Did you venture to the champ tees at #2 -- at least for a look if not actual play.
You mention the wind speed when you played - what direction was the wind blowing from ? When you stood on the 1st tee which direction was the wind blowing?
I love Wolf Creek but the 18th there is almost as much a letdown concluding hole as the 18th at CP.
Matt
no wind on the first 6 holes, then it was straight from the south. The 10th was downwind, the 19th and 18th straight into the wind.
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Matt, we moved up to the second tees from the back from 8 forward. you mention 18 is a weak hole, the day we played you could barely reach the fairway from the tee. Imagine if the surrounds at Wolf Creek were green fescue, it would look like Cashen.
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not sure why everyone is so against Wynn Golf Club. Fully agreed that its overprice, but so is every course in the city.
Not saying it in the greatest course in the city, but definitely top 4 or 5.
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We also played Badlands and Rhoades Ranch. Both were ingood shape, and played in less than 4 hours during prime time. They were excellent value, and less wind than Mesquite.
Badlands was F&F, both had good greens. Rhodes Ranch has excellent par three holes, and good draught beer (included).
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not sure why everyone is so against Wynn Golf Club. Fully agreed that its overprice, but so is every course in the city.
Not saying it in the greatest course in the city, but definitely top 4 or 5.
That's kinda like being the thinnest kid at fat camp. :)
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Mark:
Top four or five ???
Can you explain that statement in somewhat greater detail ?
Brad:
Can you further outline the "goofy" comment on Wolf Creek ?
Gary:
The 18th at WC is really weak -- the waterfall touch just makes it so out of place. If you could barely reach the fairway on #18 when you played -- I have to wonder if you really hit the tee balls that well. The carry is very short.
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EagleCrest Morgan Stephenson?
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I think the course mentioned in the beginning of the thread was the Tropicana course. There definitely was a course on the Northeast quadrant of Trop and the Strip, east of the old Marina casino. The Dunes course was west of the old Dunes hotel and filled the area between the hotels and I-15. Wynn took spot of Desert Inn and the Sahara course was renamed Las Vegas National. Haven't played there in years but it did host the tour event back in the 60's, maybe 70's as well.
Another public course not mentioned is TPC Las Vegas or Vegas. Not sure which. Haven't played it in years, but probably worth a look. Another is Silverstone, but I have never played it. Regarding Wolf Creek, the course is definitely polarizing. I really dislike the cart path management. Seems like all I see are cart paths running all over. The first hole is a par five and the cart path cuts through the fairway, a pet peeve of mine. I would like to see that issue discussed (cart paths running through fairways where they are in play).
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Jim:
The cart path issue at Wolf Creek will do what you said -- be polarizing. But many on this site have an aversion to anything other than "traditional" classic period architecture. Sad to say -- but a few of these types would hold their noses in the air for anything other than a 1920"s type course or if a Doak or C&C were to design it. That's fine for those limited adventure types.
In regards to the 1st hole -- the cart path you mentioned really doesn't come into play. Yes, it does cross but if one plays the hole correctly it's not an issue.
For what I was told the 1st at WC was started down the left side to avoid pushing players too close to the line at #9 which comes up the other way. In general terms I have seen cart paths cross fairways and really unless someone is "classic course sensitive" -- I don't see the problem so long as the preponderance of shots doesn't really have anything to do with it.
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Hi Matt:
IMO, when a cart path crosses a fairway (exception is directly in front of the tee box), it comes into play for someone. I agree that, at Wolf Creek, my second shot came nowhere near the cart path. Sadly, it came nowhere near the fairway either. But my guess is that someone probably hits the cart path on their second shot on a fairly regular basis given the variety of golf shots possible. I believe this is different than slicing or hooking the ball well away from the direction of play and hitting the path. Impossible to avoid that.
I have played other courses which also have this design aspect including Black Mesa. Paa Ko Ridge, Promontory (JN course), Primm (Lakes), Timilick are a few that come to mind. I am particularly annoyed when they are not visible from the fairway, hidden behind a rise in the terrain. I play at Southern Highlands which has cart paths but they are generally shielded from view and never run through the fairways. This design seems highly preferred when possible. I guess the overall point would be "did the architect have no other options"?
Jim
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Jim:
Keep in mind this -- when cart paths are involved -- there is ALWAYS the chance that someone will hit them. I don't see the 1st at WC being an issue but my mindset is quite elastic in such situations. For others, the aesthetic will be a deal breaker. Likely these same folks should avoid WC entirely and play something more traditional to their liking.
I explained that in having the 1st and 9th holes at WC -- running the cart path down the entire right side would have been next to impossible and simply have the players exposed to incoming balls for the 9th.
Jim, the people who don't like WC are generally those who prefer traditional classic school design. I've said many times that WC is sort of like hot and spicy Thai food -- some people can't stomach that and should stick with the more appealing for them steak and potato offerings.
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Matt:
Yes, good point regarding the adjacent hole. I can't quite remember it, but that is something designers have to take into account which golfers often overlook. Also, hard to hide cart paths in that extremely hilly environment.
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I really didn't mind the cart path crossing down the middle on 1. As I recall, there are no hazards immediately after the cart path and thus a shot that hits the path will generally just carom a little further down the fairway. Normally, I'm not a 'cement-hater' like some on this site, but I have to say that given the overall surroundings, the last thing I was focused on was a cart path that crosses the fairway at a point very few players are going to be laying up to.
How about some thoughts on no. 9? 240 yards carry to reach the fairway (and into the wind the day I played). OK, I understand that if you are playing the tips at WC, you should be a pretty accomplished player, but still, 240? I really don't see the need for this back tee. I think 9 would be a very interesting hole from 300 yds. There is a multi-level green with sharp back-to-front tilt (I think, is that right?), any ball finding bunker 50yds short-right of green is about dead, and forward tee can bring hazard left of green into play for players attempting to drive the green.
I am one of the polarized group that really enjoyed WC, but 9 stood as one of the only negatives from the round (and not being able to find the black tee on 1). The only other hole that wasn't all that exciting was 15, but I'll just leave my criticism to 9.
Mark
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Mark:
The tips at WC are only for the accomplished types. #9 clearly puts it to the player with the carry and prevailing wind.
If one plays the 9th from the next tee box the rigors lessen accordingly.
In regards to #1 -- the staff frowns on people playing from that position -- so you end up on the more forward tee -- I also think it's a good hole from that yardage because going for the green in two becomes possible provided two shots are hit with both length and accuracy married together.
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This is the Morgan Stephenson from Eagle Crest, Shannon.
In regards to WC, I really liked the golf course and the scenery. Probablly the most dangerous cart paths I have ever been on! Wind was definately a factor the day I played. I thought that most of the holes were fun and at least interesting and different. I would like to play it again as I would make some different club selections off of the tee. I thought it was amazing that they built a course on that site.
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The difficulty of WC has plenty to do with the terrain -- no doubt cart usage being mandated will turn off plenty of people. The other aspect that makes the course tough is twofold -- the decisions you need to reach at the tee box -- plenty of risk / reward type holes and if you don't know exactly your carry points it can be quite vexing.
The other dimension is the wind -- it can be VERY windy at times. When the southerly winds pick up in intensity -- the 8th, to name just one hole, can be a real beast -- from the tips at just under 250 yards it is in my mind -- the most difficult long par-3 one can play in the States. Best bet for most people -- in heavy wind play the hole from the 150 yard marks.
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I've said many times that WC is sort of like hot and spicy Thai food -- some people can't stomach that and should stick with the more appealing for them steak and potato offerings.
Yep, you've said it a million times on here, and each time you repeat it, it reminds one of how silly it is. Thanks for that.
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George:
It's not silly -- you say similar things over and over again -- I quickly forget what you have provided on countless occasions too.
Wolf Creek will not appeal to the button-down types who prefer classic school design with its trees and ease in walking with no more than 10-20 yards between green(s) and next tee(s). Fair enough -- play elsewhere -- those who enjoy a bit of Indiana Jones adventure golf can play it without being delayed by others.
What's so funny is that people will play overseas and have roads / walls and the like interfere with play and they gush at how brilliant it is. Hilarious contradictions abound.
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Wolf Creek will not appeal to the button-down types who prefer classic school design with its trees and ease in walking with no more than 10-20 yards between green(s) and next tee(s). Fair enough -- play elsewhere -- those who enjoy a bit of Indiana Jones adventure golf can play it without being delayed by others.
Agreed.
But there is a gigantic gulf between the criticisms offered, and sweeping everything into the "it's Thai food versus steak and potatoes" analogy that you love to trot out. Like it or not, people have valid criticisms of WC beyond simply "it's not classic golf" and the fact that you refuse to acknowledge or address these criticisms does not make them any less valid, no matter how much you care to write it off to simple differences in tastes.
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I like spicy Thai food, but I do not like bad spicy Thai food.
One can still argue that WC is not good within its genre.
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George:
"Valid" criticisms ?
OK -- what about my equally "valid" criticisms on those who constantly whine and cry about what they say?
I've alluded to what WC is about numerous times - those stuck in the mud types who piss and moan about WC are so funny when they go overseas and when they encounter roads / walls and other additions to the design -- sing praises to the Almighty on how wonderful such courses are.
WC is not everyone - if you don't like it -- fair enough -- make way for those who do.
Will:
Fair enough -- if you think it's bad provide me your specifics -- more than happy to serve a counterpoint.
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George:
"Valid" criticisms ?
OK -- what about my equally "valid" criticisms on those who constantly whine and cry about what they say?
What about your "criticisms" of those...?
They are horseshit, plain and simple. You choose to attack the individual, rather than the substance of his criticism. The fact that you continually label their criticism as whining and crying says everything that needs to be said.
Horseshit.
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George:
Get another script -- please.
You've said the same tired and predictable things -- when in doubt throw the person under the bus -- I've opined in GREAT DETAIL about Wolf Creek and have acknowledged the flip comments from others. I don't hold seriously your comments that routinely cry and moan without any serious detail. You don't like Wolf Creek -- play elsewhere. You said Black Mesa lacks playability. So be it.
Please come up with a bit more thought than your ending final word in your last post -- your much better than that George.
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Silverstone closes...
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/silverstone-golf-course-las-vegas-closed-15420.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/silverstone-golf-course-las-vegas-closed-15420.htm)
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Silverstone closes...
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/silverstone-golf-course-las-vegas-closed-15420.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/silverstone-golf-course-las-vegas-closed-15420.htm)
Bummer, one of the better "value" courses in Las Vegas. Tough business these days.
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Agree full on with Matt, the view from #2 @ WC is awesome.
BE WARNED: it's at least 100 steps up and back, but worth the wheezing. TAKE UR CAMERA
18 just plain sucks. Play it way up as a drivable 4 par
And, if I remember, #8 is not only long, but the green is surrounded on three sides by water (and in a very cool baby 'hole in the wall')
Most important detail of WC - Not a stroke play venue, but an exciting match play track.
Final ? - is the Nicklaus cse way north of town (PGA property) still open or dirt?