Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: PThomas on January 11, 2011, 08:58:17 AM
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Note: i Have not played here
the "Avid Golfer" Matt Ginella professes his love for the course, while Ron WHitten raises objections
Ron says "...Caledonia is long on beauty but short on strategic options..." he states that if you split each fairway you'll have to hit over at least one umbrella oak and two lagoons to reach greens , and if you miss fairways you'll find it hard to scramble from beneath pines to reach greens perched above deep bunkers...all five par 3s require aerial approaches...
thoughts from those who've been there?
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The course is built from only 115 acres of dead flat ground. It's amazing what he did with it, and inevitable that it would be tight and require some carries over the marshes. Whitten is right, only in the sense that makes it not for everyone.
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I think everything Ron said about Caledonia could be said about Harbour Town, and last I checked Harbour Town was a Top 100 course.
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The routing of Caledonia is brilliant... even through it's only on 115 acres every hole feels isolated and in its own space. Just brilliant.
Whitten is all wet on the strategic options comment... the course is loaded with them: distance options, angle options, air vs ground options. It's never boring and never plays the same way twice.
As for having to hit over an umbrella oak... Ron is probably talking about #7, a short par four. He's correct, if the pin is on the right side of the green you cannot go directly at it from the middle of the fairway without taking your shot over a tree. It's a sucker shot - decent golfers think they can pull it off, but most catch the back side of the tree and fall way short. But, Mr. Whitten is also very wrong... you can play a low shot and scoot a ball onto the green or take it high at the center. He's only looking at the hole in one way.
I don't understand the comment about having to hit over two lagoons after splitting the fairway with your tee shot. Is he saying that requiring a forced carry from the middle of the fairway twice during a round is a bad thing? On any course, or just Caledonia? This would doom quite a number of great holes around the world.
As for the par threes... in a word... they are brilliant! Strantz had a particular genius for par threes and Caledonia offers some of his best, with the possible exception of #9 which gets a lot of guff. Personally, I like #9, but that's fodder for another thread.
"All five par threes require aerial approaches..." Well, so do all of the par threes at Royal Dornoch, but I don't see anyone bitching about that!
Caledonia might be the one course I could retire to and play every day.
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What Matt and Michael said!
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What Tom said!
Played it, loved it, it's on my top 10- 17 hole courses (9 seems like an afterthought) list mostly for the brillant job in making the place seem much more spacious than the acrage protends.
Played True Blue right after in the afternoon and personally thought it paled in comparison - but then I guess I look t things a bit differently than most ;D
As to par 3's needing an aerial approach? When was the last time you played a bump and run tee shot on Bermuda? Ya, thought so.
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It's been a few years, but I loved it. Walking off the first time I Just knew I loved Strantz. True Blue wasn't as great for me. And perhaps Caledonia is the least Strantz-like of all of Mike's courses. But I think it's a fantastic course on a compact property. I wouldn't mind living on Pawleys and playing Heritage and Caledonia all the time.
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Ron states that if you split each fairway you'll have to hit over at least one umbrella oak and two lagoons to reach greens
Who says you are supposed to hit the middle of the fairway? Whatever happened to angles of approach? What a short-sighted comment.
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When I'm in the southern part of the Grand Strand, Caledonia is a must play.
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I took Whitten's comments to mean if you don't have wide fairways it's a bad course.
I've nothing bad to say about Caledonia based on my one time playing there. I do love the Par 3's as a group. For my money True Blue offers better golf but Caledonia a better experience. If my love for Caledonia falls short of Mike Whitaker's...well that says more about how much he loves it than how little I do!
I'll say one more thing about the Whitten comments. If that's his reaction to Caledonia then the remainder of Grand Strand golf must make him physically ill and playing in most of Florida would, for him, be right out.
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I could not possibly disagree with Mr. Whitten more strongly. Caledonia appeals to golfers of all skill levels, and not just for the remarkable natural beauty of the site. Whitten's descriptions of Caledonia would actually be much more appropriate for Tobacco Rd., where high handicappers go to die; that isn't the case at Caledonia.
The fairways are of at least average length, and I'm not sure that I've ever had to hit over any sort of tree from the middle of any of them. I don't find scrambling at Caledonia to be particularly different than anywhere else I've played. One could make the case that if you hit the ball into the trees that it SHOULD be difficult to recover.
But the most misleading statement that Whitten makes is about the lack of a ground option on the par 3's. While it is true that you can't putt from the tee ???, three of the par 3's at Caledonia have very deep greens that allow for options in club selection. Of the other two, #9 is only 118 from the tips, and #17 plays from a relatively elevated tee. In any event, none of the par 3's are lacking for interest or options.
I thought when I read this article that perhaps Mr. Whitten has fallen into the trap that plagues critics of all types, that being the need to say something negative to validate their own expertise.
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I don't really think Caledonia is that narrow. There is room to work the ball and bail out on most holes. And in a lot of cases, you can play under a tree or over it. Having seen Harbour Town in person before, I would say that Harbour Town is a good bit narrower than Caledonia.
But it turns out that I played Caledonia on New Year's Day (it was 65 degrees outside; perfect) with my father and I took some pictures. I was testing out the camera on my phone with some of them.
#1
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1589.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1590.jpg)
#2
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1591.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1591.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1593.jpg)
#3
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1594.jpg)
#4
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1595.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1596.jpg)
#5
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1597.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1599.jpg)
#6
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1600.jpg)
#7
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1601.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1602.jpg)
#8
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1603.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1604.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1605.jpg)
#9
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1606.jpg)
#10
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1607.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1608.jpg)
#11
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1609.jpg)
#12
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1610.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1611.jpg)
#13
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0013.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0015.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0018.jpg)
#14
(great bridge to the back tee)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0020.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0021.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0024.jpg)
#15
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0026.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0027.jpg)
#16
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0028.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1612.jpg)
#17
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0029.jpg)
#18
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/100_1613.jpg)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/Tim_Gavrich/Caledonia/IMG_0031.jpg)
Also, put me firmly in the camp that really likes the 9th hole.
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The article is called Face-Off: Two Perspectives. You need an Antagonist and a Protagonist to have a face-off, otherwise it would be no more than two guys stroking each other. Whitten took the former role and Ginella the latter. However, they both agreed on two points, that Caledonia has "fairly narrow" fairways and "forced carries".
How proficient does a player need to be to play Caledonia at anywhere near his potential? Handicaps aren't the perfect gauge, but where's the line drawn, i.e is a 20 going to play like a 20 or more like a 30?
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Jim--
Like many of Strantz's courses, the rating figures at Caledonia are on the lower side while the slope figures are a bit on the high side, which I believe is fairly accurate. I'm a scratch player and would not characterize Caledonia as being especially difficult. My father whose handicap wavers between 10 and 12 nowadays, has broken 80 out there a couple times. Compared to the course I usually play down there, Pawleys Plantation, Caledonia is far, far less difficult.
Could a 20-handicapper struggle at Caledonia? I suppose a 20-handicapper could struggle most anywhere, but if he/she plays the appropriate set of tees and goes from there, the golf course is not going to be brutal. Going hole-by-hole in my head, there do seem to be any more big-number holes for bogey players at Caledonia than at any of the other courses in the vicinity. Nor are there any more "forced carries" of any difficulty--a bunch of them are off the tee and are of less than 100 yards. Complaints about such "forced carries" are the fault of bad golfers, not the architect. I think Strantz did a fabulous job with how little land he was given. He crafted a very stout yard-for-yard golf course that is not overly difficult for golfers of most any handicap level. I have played the course half a dozen times or so and the pace of play has never been very slow; that, plus my experiences playing it, makes me think that the course is pretty playable for just about anyone.
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Thanks Tim.
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Great pictures, Tim. Thanks for posting these.
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Great pictures. Looks like a fun driving course. Strantz courses Tend to look great and intimidating off the tee but play easy. How are the greens on caledonia?
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I played it this past April, and my group as well as myself loved it! I thought there was a small stretch of holes on the back that were somewhat tight, but I have played tighter.
In the magazine they wrote about the 18th hole. I hit a terrible drive left, punched out back to the fairway. Hit 7 iron to about 25 feet onto the green with a porchful of people watching. Walked up and drained the putt for par. Great hole!
Michael, I too liked the par 3's, even number 9 which was a bit shoehorned with the elongated, not so deep green. Interesting stuff for sure.
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I have never thought of Caledonia as "tight." It's never felt that way to me.
Tim's pictures make some of the holes seem narrower than they really are. Take #15, for example. It's the longest par four on the course. Tim's picture makes the tee shot look narrow, but there is a lot of room out there. The holes that require a big tee shot have enough width to handle most wayward shots. The medium and shorter holes are not as wide, but they don't need to be.
Another point... Caledonia is a GREAT walk. Very smooth and easy. They used to offer push carts for those who wanted to walk, but sadly, no one ever took them up on the option. So now the push carts are gone. :'( Unlike most Grand Strand courses, walking is not discouraged at Caledonia and you can hoof it any time of the day.
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I have never thought of Caledonia as "tight." It's never felt that way to me.
Tim's pictures make some of the holes seem narrower than they really are. Take #15, for example. It's the longest par four on the course. Tim's picture makes the tee shot look narrow, but there is a lot of room out there. The holes that require a big tee shot have enough width to handle most wayward shots. The medium and shorter holes are not as wide, but they don't need to be.
Another point... Caledonia is a GREAT walk. Very smooth and easy. They used to offer push carts for those who wanted to walk, but sadly, no one ever took them up on the option. So now the push carts are gone. :'( Unlike most Grand Strand courses, walking is not discouraged at Caledonia and you can hoof it any time of the day.
Michael,
Agreed on all counts. I have never once thought of or described Caledonia as narrow. While it is not as wide as True Blue, it is NOT a difficult driving course; a shot into the trees at Caledonia is well offline in every case I can think of.
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The article is called Face-Off: Two Perspectives. You need an Antagonist and a Protagonist to have a face-off, otherwise it would be no more than two guys stroking each other. Whitten took the former role and Ginella the latter. However, they both agreed on two points, that Caledonia has "fairly narrow" fairways and "forced carries".
How proficient does a player need to be to play Caledonia at anywhere near his potential? Handicaps aren't the perfect gauge, but where's the line drawn, i.e is a 20 going to play like a 20 or more like a 30?
Jim,
I understand this, but Whitten could have handled his perspective differently as a GCA critic. He could have written about the controversial 9th, or the beauty of the setting, or the contrast of Caledonia to other Strantz courses, or SOMETHING! But IMO his credibility as a journalist is diminished if he is critical just to be critical. On the other hand, if he really believes what he wrote about Caledonia to be the best points to be made about the course, then his standards have become impossibly high.
Any golfer who read his piece and decided to not make the effort to play Caledonia would really be missing a special, special golf course, and that would be a pity.
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Tim,
I just had a look at the CR/Slope ratings. At 5710 yds (CR W-73, M 67.8) the slope is 128 for women and 129 for men, at the 6,121 (CR 69.9) mark the slope is 134, and at the 6,526 (CR72.1) mark the slope is 140. The course ratings aren't high at the par of 70 but the slopes are more than a bit on the high side.
Although Whitten finds more to be critical of in the way the course plays, both he and Ginella mention its narrowness and it's forced carries. Tom Doak agreed with Whitten "...in the sense that the course is not for everyone", and in looking at an aerial it appears that water must either be crossed, or runs parallel, on 8, perhaps 9 of the courses 18 holes.
While it may be loved across a wide spectrum of players there really seems to be an imbalance that favors the better player, and by a large margin given the slope ratings, the narrowness, the water and the severity of some of the other hazards.
AG,
I don't see it the same light, the focus of the article isn't a treatise on the 'architecture'.
Here's a link to the article. It's little more than two guys expressing mostly opposite(even though they agree a couple of times) views about a golf course, in one paragraph each.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-02/face-off-caledonia-golf-club
edit: if a golfer decides to stay away from Caledonia because of someone else's comments about it then they are the fools, not the author. I would think that the decision to stay away from Caledonia has umpteen more do with it's very high green fee than anything a critic might write. What is it now, $200 or so in their high season?
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Tim,
I just had a look at the CR/Slope ratings. At 5710 yds (CR W-73, M 67.8) the slope is 128 for women and 129 for men, at the 6,121 (CR 69.9) mark the slope is 134, and at the 6,526 (CR72.1) mark the slope is 140. The course ratings aren't high at the par of 70 but the slopes are more than a bit on the high side.
Although Whitten finds more to be critical of in the way the course plays, both he and Ginella mention its narrowness and it's forced carries. Tom Doak agreed with Whitten "...in the sense that the course is not for everyone", and in looking at an aerial it appears that water must either be crossed, or runs parallel, on 8, perhaps 9 of the courses 18 holes.
While it may be loved across a wide spectrum of players there really seems to be an imbalance that favors the better player, and by a large margin given the slope ratings, the narrowness, the water and the severity of some of the other hazards.
AG,
I don't see it the same light, the focus of the article isn't a treatise on the 'architecture'.
Here's a link to the article. It's little more than two guys expressing mostly opposite(even though they agree a couple of times) views about a golf course, in one paragraph each.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-02/face-off-caledonia-golf-club
edit: if a golfer decides to stay away from Caledonia because of someone else's comments about it then they are the fools, not the author. I would think that the decision to stay away from Caledonia has umpteen more do with it's very high green fee than anything a critic might write. What is it now, $200 or so in their high season?
Jim,
I read the piece when I got my copy of Golf Digest. I agree that it is by no means a through examination of the GCA of Caledonia, but Whitten's byline is "Architecture Guru", so he doesn't get a pass on this, especially since he starts off by comparing Strantz's work at Caledonia with Pete Dye (which is ironic since Caledonia is the only course Strantz did that is NOT at least somewhat similar to Dye courses!).
Ginella refers to the course as "fairly narrow" in the context Caledonia not being too long and of not needing to hit driver every hole, and says that the most thrilling forced carry is the one on 18. I'd agree with all of that.
As for Whitten's references to forced carries, target golf, lack of options, and narrowness, I'll say it again; none of these come to mind when I think of Caledonia. That just isn't the golf course. That Strantz could build a course with width and options on 115 acres is a tribute to his abilities, but he did. I play there every summer with a VERY high handicapper, and he loves the place and doesn't get beat up by any of those aforementioned issues.
As to water, Whitten refers to two "lagoons". I'd assume he is talking about 8 and 18. Some of Tim's pictures show water that is just in front of the tee and really isn't in play for any sort of decent shot, or from the forward tees. Water IS a real factor on about 6 holes but none of that strikes me as much of a criticism or as very unusual; it is after all, not only a beach course but on the site of an old rice plantation! Again, when you think of Caledonia, you do NOT think first of water.
You're right that price is more likely to keep people away than anything that Whitten wrote, but I still take issue with his view of the golf course.
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AG,
I don't care if they used half a paragraph to list Ron Whitten's resume, there is no way to take one paragraph and label it as any more than a shorthand opinion. This isn't an architectural review, RW is hitting some talking points, just like Ginella hit his. A 'face-off' type of article is meant to stir the pot and get people talking. If the banter here is any indication of that, then the article scored a goal.
edit: I wonder how many folks would make the decision not to play Caledonia now that they know the scrutiny they'll be under when approaching the 18th? Tsk, tsk Mr. Ginella ;D
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AG,
I don't care if they used half a paragraph to list Ron Whitten's resume, there is no way to take one paragraph and label it as any more than a shorthand opinion. This isn't an architectural review, RW is hitting some talking points, just like Ginella hit his. A 'face-off' type of article is meant to stir the pot and get people talking. If the banter here is any indication of that, then the article scored a goal.
edit: I wonder how many folks would make the decision not to play Caledonia now that they know the scrutiny they'll be under when approaching the 18th? Tsk, tsk Mr. Ginella ;D
Jim,
Whitten's "shorthand opinion" is ONLY about GCA, and it is ONLY negative. He makes not one single positive comment about Caledonia, unless you would consider saying that the course is prettier than Joe Pesci a compliment. It is not an architectural review in a hole-by-hole sense, but Whitten makes his GCA opinion of Caledonia abundantly clear. He ain't talking about the chowder in the clubhouse!
I'm going to give Whitten the benefit of the doubt and assume that he really feels this way about Caledonia, rather than that he was just trying to stir the pot. I'd rather think that he doesn't like Caledonia (for reasons that completely escape me AND that I disagree with) than that he is willing to write what he does not believe to stir the pot.
Also, I was mistaken (along with T. Doak and others) about Whitten characterizing Caledonia as narrow; he does not say that in the article. IMO, that makes his critique even harder to understand.
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I find myself in agreement with both A.G. and Jim. Whitten's side of the argument should be taken with a lot of skepticism because it is so short and superficial. But at the same time, it seems a bit heavy-handed in its denouncement of the golf course. In other words, if he has this opinion of Caledonia I would shudder to see what he really thinks of the rest of the courses in the Grand Strand area! Furthermore, a lot of Golf Digest's readers are going to take Whitten's quick hit at Caledonia as more gospel than they ought to, especially if they are not familiar with the course and/or the area.
It should also be noted that not a whole lot of people end up paying the full $180-200 to play Caledonia in the peak season due to stay-and-play deals that people often take advantage of. And for people who own a place down there, buying the $42.50-per-year Myrtle Beach Golf Passport knocks about $70 off the peak-time Caledonia rate (which can apply to three guests of the cardholder).
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AG,
Again, the whole idea of a "Face-Off" is simple: one side, Protagonist, the other side, Antagonist, and stirring the pot is what such tete-a-tetes are all about.
If all anyone wants is to read another glowing paragraph or two about one of their favorite courses they shouldn't read articles like this, and if we're all better critics who know more than Ron Whitten why care what he says?
Tim,
The only effect that article will have on Caledonia will be positive, controversy piques curiosity.
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To me, the 9th hole seems much more like an afterthought occurring where it is in the routing. After playing eight great holes, it feels like you are at the clubhouse, and ready to go out on the back nine. Oh wait, we've got to put one more hole in here!! I would think if it were placed out in the middle of the nine, it would not seem so out of place.
I still really enjoy Caledonia, and although I prefer True Blue, both are courses I would seek out every time while in Myrtle Beach.