Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: JC Jones on January 02, 2011, 04:05:38 PM
-
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/01/02/1485733/chambers-bay-still-in-red-figures.html
The unreported rumor is that Richard Choi has pledged to cover the operating losses until 2015.
-
It looks like a very cool place. Loved watching the amateur, but I reiterate that with limited time and budget, why would one travel to CB over Bandon?
-
I had a great time playing my one round at Chambers Bay for which I paid $75 (twilight rate). The guys I was paired with were good company and I joined them for a nice dinner in the club's restaurant. I probably spent $125+ for the day without considering transportation costs from Bellevue. It was well worth it and I'd do it again at that price. I would not consider playing at $169, and I think that getting the green fee well under $100 is the key. This might mean finding an alternative source for the bond's sinking fund, but good politicans can always come up with a good story line (e.g. jobs created, tax revenues generated from other sources associated with the golf course, etc.). I do hope they figured out how to maintain good greens- the only complaint I had.
-
$21,000,000 all financed? How many rounds at $75 needed to break even after $1M maintenance budget, staffing and interest expense? Is it even feasible?
-
From the article: "Dreams of a resort hotel, beach house facility, water recreation area and other amenities at Chambers Bay did not move toward reality in 2010."
In the end, those things NOt getting built may be its saving grace!
If there's only 1 course there, then it's not enough of a destination to get people to fly in there for a golf trip. They've got to pull more folks from Seattle.
-
All good points. I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course. If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going.
Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon. All those factors have to be an issue for CB.
-
$21,000,000 all financed? How many rounds at $75 needed to break even after $1M maintenance budget, staffing and interest expense? Is it even feasible?
Not terrible really. 30,000 rounds should break even - until the bonds are due.
-
All good points. I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course. If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going.
Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon. All those factors have to be an issue for CB.
8 hour drive Tacoma - Bandon. That's nothing for you and Colton! ;D
-
Chambers Bay is an absolute must play for anyone. Hope they get things worked out for the good of the golf course. Unfortunately, I'm afraid the slow conditioning of the greens have overshadowed the architecture for the golfing public.
-
All good points. I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course. If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going.
Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon. All those factors have to be an issue for CB.
Jim:
These all sound like distinctly GCA-oriented arguments, germane to the 1,500 folks who post here and few others.
Seattle is a metro area of nearly 3.5 million -- bigger than the Twin Cities, Denver, San Diego, and Tampa-St Petersburg, with a fairly long playing season (relative to Mpsl/St. Paul and Denver, in particular), and far away from any other metro area. And there's little else in the area with much distinction in terms of (publicly available) outstanding golf course architecture.
I agree with Lou -- a properly priced, high-quality course ought to be able to capture enough rounds to make ends meet in that market.
-
Phil -
I agree with that statement. My perception of CB is that it wants to be a national destination, which is reflected in its high price tag. However, as you point out, it should be successful operating as a local destination for the fine people of WA. I think CB needs to think more local.
-
All good points. I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course. If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going.
Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon. All those factors have to be an issue for CB.
Jim:
These all sound like distinctly GCA-oriented arguments, germane to the 1,500 folks who post here and few others.
Seattle is a metro area of nearly 3.5 million -- bigger than the Twin Cities, Denver, San Diego, and Tampa-St Petersburg, with a fairly long playing season (relative to Mpsl/St. Paul and Denver, in particular), and far away from any other metro area. And there's little else in the area with much distinction in terms of (publicly available) outstanding golf course architecture.
I agree with Lou -- a properly priced, high-quality course ought to be able to capture enough rounds to make ends meet in that market.
It hasn't been properly priced for all. Only Pierce County residents have gotten the local rate so the whole Seattle area (where most of the population is) has been paying the same rate as out of staters. I hear they changed that, and it should help. It generally is not a busy course, so they can handle the volume. Also as Clint said, rumors of crappy greens there still persist. With crappy greens, Seattleites weren't willing to drive an hour or so to pay $170....
-
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/01/02/1485733/chambers-bay-still-in-red-figures.html
The unreported rumor is that Richard Choi has pledged to cover the operating losses until 2015.
I will be happy to... as soon as I win that $290 million Mega Millions lottery.
It does look like they are going to add discount rates for Washington residents. I think that is a smart move to generate more local play. I haven't even heard of the "all you can play" rate that the article mentions.
This winter is going to be tough on the revenue as it has been very cold and very wet.
How much does a course typically make on US Open? I would think that would go a long way in paying down the bond.
-
I have mixed feelings about Chambers Bay. Very good golf course with excellent par fours. There are lots of fun shots out there.
Like many/most golf course projects competing for national recognition between 2003-2008, the finances don't add up. It would have been nice if the course had the luxury of growing in the fescue greens for a year or so, before subjecting them to heavy play.
-
Jim:
If CBay really aspires to being a national draw, it needs the amenities other national golf draws have -- multiple courses, accomodations that are worth traveling to, some sense of distinctiveness that would lure someone like me from the Midwest. Bandon, Kohler, Pinehurst, a few others have those -- CBay does not, from what I can tell.
-
Phil,
The problem is that if they aspire to get the national resort crowd, unless they build some pretty damn great courses they're geographically going to always be in Bandon's shadow. Essentially they've got the best golf resort in the world down the (long) road, so I agree that fiscally it makes a lot more sense to focus on the local market and put the best product forward for a fair price...
-
Jud & Phil,
There are enough people visiting Seattle during the summer months from all over the world already to fill up the tee sheets, unlike Bandon. They need to make sure that those people know that Chambers Bay exists. They also need to concentrate on filling out the winter months with local players.
-
:( :P :-X ::)
Just another example of how the government can spend money ndiscriminately. Just stay out of business , puh-leese
-
Richard,
I agree that if visiting Seattle it makes sense to get out to CB. But what other courses in the area would make me want to lug my clubs along? (Haven't had great success with lefty rental sets...Hell I'm lucky if I can hit my own set)...
-
:( :P :-X ::)
Just another example of how the government can spend money ndiscriminately. Just stay out of business , puh-leese
AND a private entity would have never considered the venture.... ;)
-
:( :P :-X ::)
Just another example of how the government can spend money ndiscriminately. Just stay out of business , puh-leese
AND a private entity would have never considered the venture.... ;)
And a brand new rater just appointed to the panel does not have the time to stop and help out on the way to Bandon.
-
Archie's subtext is deadly accurate. This is purely unacceptable behavior from a government entity. If the costs were too high to be sustainable, they had no business going into business. Then hiring a management Co. to do their work for them. Shocking that after holding a prestigous event they were'nt able to capitalize. I feel for those early opponents to the project, who turned around once it was a done deal, only to have their first instincts realized. Maybe they need to get the " Goldman Sachs rate" and refinance. ;)
-
Going off a bit here, but one of the interesting things (to me) about these debates over public vs. private golf is the nature of risk, and how much we're willing to accept risk as a part of doing business/operating. The nature of public dollars being at stake clearly inhibits the taking of risk, yet we generally feel little compunction of private entities taking on risky ventures (like, Apple thinking computers could be something that everyone would want in their homes -- a hugely risky and at-odds-with-conventional-thinking approach). Yet it's the taking of risks, in many endeavors, that yields truly successful and paradigm-breaking products.
I've always thought the public constraints on risk is one of the reasons governmental entities often just sort of muddle through, and truly don't seek unconventional (and potentially more successful) ways of doing things.
-
Adam, let's not go overboard here. The county modeled their business after Bethpage Black and their success. It was planned during the go-go days of mid-2000's where money flowed freely. Not too many people, public or private foresaw the economic meltdown.
After the trillions we have sunked in to support Wall Street (so they can pull out hundreds of billions in bonuses), I think we can safely retire government vs private enterprise BS. Everything is government supported at this point.
-
I have visited Seattle a few times recently to play golf with local friends. These guys play golf often, and none of them had been to CB. They all cited the high cost for non-Pierce county residents. If CB is not getting a couple of rounds per year out of these type golfers- they have failed in their marketing/pricing. It's good to read that this may/is changing. I'd like to go play CB and get these guys to joing me. As far as the national resort angle- they should hang that up. I live in Northern California and like to travel for golf. I can't imagine ever choosing CB over Bandon. Thats not the fault of CB- simply how special Bandon is. However- if my Seattle resident friends will now play CB due to better pricing, I'm happy to join em when I'm in town. Ill miss the Gold course, though :-[
-
It looks like a very cool place. Loved watching the amateur, but I reiterate that with limited time and budget, why would one travel to CB over Bandon?
If they happen to be in the area? I am planning on trying to get a round or two in while in the metro area visiting a college friend in March.
-
C'mon Richard. Not even the Kremlin would've approved this.
-
Mixed feelings here as well...played there on September 30th, a gorgeous early fall day. The out-of-county weekday rate was $155.00 + tax. (It wasn't very crowded.) They had just aerated and top-dressed the entire course, so it was a bit of a sandbox out there throughout, not just in the bunkers/waste areas. The proper thing to do would have been to charge the October rates ($89 non-res./$59 res.) based on the conditions. Counting tip to a partner's caddie (who helped everyone in the threesome out--and you really have to take a caddie the first couple times there or you'll be lost) it was over $200 spent on the day. Not the sort of thing I'd do too often.
Financial and conditioning issues aside, Chambers Bay is a whole lot of fun. Interesting holes and shotmaking options throughout. (Except for when one of our group 6-putted--he wasn't having fun there.) It can beat you up in spots, but we left with a smile. Worth a play when in the area, but not a special trip.
The other two guys I played with and the caddy had all played the Bandon courses many times. They said Chambers Bay would compare to them (when under perfect conditions), but all preferred Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes and Old MacDonald. But they love it as a "locals" course at senior rates.
-
duuuuhhhhhhh!
$21,000,000
divided by $169/round
= 124,260.35 rounds
$21,000,000
divided by $75/round
= 280,000 rounds
we played on way back from Seattle, twilight rate
don;t need to play there again.. Bandon, well lthat's another story..
-
Uhh, Richard, check your facts:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-20/bank-bailout-returns-8-2-beating-treasury-yields.html
-
Jud, that is what Geithner and pals would love you to believe.
Just search about the 0% loan the banks got from the government to buy the Treasuries that pay 4 to 5%. Basically free money for the banks and didn't require any approval from the Congress. Vast majority of the profit over last couple of years in Wall Street came from that ponzi scheme.
And we haven't even mentioned all the mortgages that banks dumped to governent to stop the bleeding.
As it currently stands:
GRAND TOTAL: $4.72 TRILLION DISBURSED
$13.86 TRILLION MAX. AT-RISK
$1.93 TRILLION OUTSTANDING
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Financial_crisis_and_bank_bailout_resources
Open your eyes...
-
So now you're comparing an overnight loan with a long term treasury? That's called risk...What about the home equity loan I currently have at 1.75% that I invested in Akamai and made a 140% return? I suppose the government subsidized that as well? Dude, I'm all in favor of Ann Arbor's progressive pot laws, but seriously it may be time to clean the pipes.... 8) Also, I don't know if you've checked but anyone who bought longer dated treasuries banking on the FED QE2 buyback and financing it as you say has lost their ASS over the last few months.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your opinion of CB is not quite so cloudy...And RichRod has got to go....
-
Oooh this is fun. And here I thought you two would be fighting over RichRod. Fewer things are better than wolverine against wolverine. I find it similar to women mud wrestling, both in style and intensity.
-
Jud, if government wants to give me a $100 million loan at 1% so that I can buy treasuries at 4%, I would do it in a heartbeat. And anyone in the right mind would. Who would say no to 3% free interest?
Why would anyone in the right mind lend you money at 1% so the you can turn around and lend it back to me for 4%??? Why does the government need a middle men? They could just buy the Treasuries themselves and get 4% return instead of 1%!!! This is a pure payout scheme to direct free money to Wall Street.
What risk are you talking about? If treasury fails, it pretty much means that US is in meltdown (hell, that would pretty much mean an armageddon for the entire world economy, which is why US treasury is still considered the most safe investment in the world) and short-term stuff wouldn't matter either. No one is going to bail you out if your investment in Akamai ended up in loss. The goverment has already demonstrated that they will back the Wall Street if anything goes wrong. What risk are you talking about?
And as you can see from the figures I linked, there are trillions that government is picking up for the Wall Street. If you disagree with any of the figures, I am all ears.
-
Don't believe everything you read:
http://activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/o/12-center-for-media--democracy
When the Village Voice calls these guys far left of liberal, you've really accomplished something.
-
I can also say that Geithner and Bernanke are mere stooges for the Wall Street, but that really doesn't accomplish anything, does it?
Calling people names without disputing the actual fact is a classic demonstration of ad-hominem and is usually just an act of desperation because the facts are against them.
Come back when you are ready to dispute the facts.
-
Richard,
You are not doing Chambers any favors falling for these distractions.
-
Ugh...I don't usually have the patience for this type of Finance 101...but, OK, Today you borrow $100,000,000 from uncle sam at 0% (more like 0.17% in reality but let's call it 0% for arguments sake). You then Buy $100mm of 30 year U.S. Government Bonds at 4%. Tomorrow you come into the office and realize the following:
1. You made $10,958.90 in interest overnight! Yeah!
2. You helped the U.S. tax payer pay the balooning national debt at a slightly better rate for 30 years.
Let's even say that this wonderful positively sloped yield curve stays as is for 2 years. Now you've made $8mm in "carry" interest!!
Unfortunately one of the following things happen:
1. The economy is now booming because of all the stimulus and has finally gained traction and the employment rate is quickly falling back toward 5% and/or
2. Inflation has reared it's ugly head in terms of inflation expectations or
3. U.S. Government Debt has been downgraded from AAA because of the inability of government to actually only spend what it takes in like the rest of us:
This results in year 3 in both short term, overnight financing as well as 30 year bond yields rising to 8% and, for the sake of this argument staying there till the bond matures.
At the maturity of the bond, aside from present value of money calculations, you will have lost $104mm in opportunity cost of investment...It's called a yield curve for a reason dude...
Now if your argument is that banks are too big to fail anyway, a couple points:
1. The bankers are the bad guys for getting bailed out because some guys are "rich". Don't know if you've actually tried to support a family of four in mid-town Manhattan on $250k, but you're not exactly living high off the hog. The Government made back all their equity investment in the banks plus a profit...The car companies are the good guys for getting bailed out because they were the ignorant guys who got bullied by the the big bad bankers and only a handful of them make the magical $250k/year.
2. Your boy's Financial Reform Bill will pretty much ensure that all anyone can do is give you a nice mortgage, again if your not "rich", or a nice small business loan. Well, they may actually be more likely to fail because THEY"LL BE MIRED DOWN IN UNNECESSARY RED TAPE and will be uncompetitive.
3. Let me know when the Government stops subsidizing the following (for starters) before you get your panties in a bunch:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/interactives/farmaid/
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment_150/185_top_10_list.html
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Estimating_U.S._Government_Subsidies_to_Energy_Sources_2002-2008
4. The Fed has always offered loans at the discount window...before, during and after the financial crisis....
-
I think the Seattle metro area is blessed to have Chambers Bay. there have been many discussions on the politics and finances of the project over the last few years. There is more to the story than saying cost 21,000,000. There is no qstion it is a money loser and always would be if that is all there is to the story. Remember the site conditions and olbigations before course was built. Also it is large public green space with ocean views which is not free in most locations these days. The walking and running paths, viewing areas are special and very popular for Tacoma residents. The positive attention it has brought Tacoma which is a city reinventing itself has a value as well. i remember well what the Jones golf trail did for the tourist industry in Alabama's as well as its reputation and ability to expand its tourists draw from new markets.
-
This should really come as no surprise, though some of the logic and analysis offered by posters seems disjointed. No doubt, the economic challenges have significantly hurt CB. The timing wasn't good, but other factors are in play as well that could have been prevented.
Keeping it simple...at anything over $25.00, inconsistent, often poor green surfaces = That course will be a dead loser financially.
This has been a common complaint of CB since its opening. As the price-point creeps north of $100, folks are less tolerant of marginal conditions. I believe this factor, more than any other, has cost Chambers Bay dearly.
The locals and State residents should get a break. That's just smart business.
The fact that was instituted ratherly recently shows short-sighted marketing or past greed, take your pick.
Despite the lauded Kemper Sports Management, the caddie staff there during those crucial, early days ... was inexperienced and marginally-trained... that often led to some poor experiences. When that caddie experience is a major component of your presentation, to give it the insufficient attention it requires sends visiting golfers away with negative impressions.
Though there has been inprovement, it's a shame that something which properly implemented, can be a tremendous differencemaker, for both the community and the facility, got off to such a mediocre start.
Does anyone know the marketing budget, ball-park figure, for CB? While free press for hosting an AM and U.S. Open is nice, in this climate you need to do a hell of a lot more than that to compete with the Bandon's, Pebble's and Pinehurst's. Even regular efforts to attract regional golfers requires "investment" to promote the facility.
In the end, what's there is surely better than what existed prior to the transformation and things can be improved. Any project of this scale must be evaluated on a long-term assessment. There are many layers of benefit. I for one hope that the verdict will be good in the end, but only time will yield that answer.
-
I wish I was sold on the course. I enjoy playing Canterwood as much or more since their redesign as I did Chambers. I love to vist the pacific north west but there really is no comparison for me, as far as Bandon and Chambers Bay. I'll go to Oregon. I think the US Open is one and done at Chambers.
-
...I think the US Open is one and done at Chambers.
Lets see. They held the amateur there this year and they had some of the biggest if not the biggest crowds ever for a US Am. Practically everyone believes the event identified the best players. The grounds are huge allowing for the full US Open circus. The Pacific NW is starved for big time golf practically guaranteeing a huge gate. The course is absolutely stellar when compared to Torrey. The course is built to handle fast and firm instead of getting borderline freaky like at Pebble. The scenery is as good or better than any other Open course. I guess you have to admit it's going to be a flop as any newby can tell you.
:P
-
Brad,
Canterwood?? Seriously? I think CB is clearly the best course in WA. Canterwood would not make my Top 25. Maybe even my Top 50.
-
Adam, let's not go overboard here. The county modeled their business after Bethpage Black and their success. It was planned during the go-go days of mid-2000's where money flowed freely. Not too many people, public or private foresaw the economic meltdown.
After the trillions we have sunked in to support Wall Street (so they can pull out hundreds of billions in bonuses), I think we can safely retire government vs private enterprise BS. Everything is government supported at this point.
The problem with that logic is those in the golf business knew there were troubles ahead because although the mid 2000 may have been go go for some, in golf things were already starting to meltdown. Rounds and revenues were on a downward trend no matter what propaganda the NGF was putting out.
I was working in OR when the CB project was announced and I can remember discussing the project with some other golf supers and our feeling at the time was the project had no chance of financial success. Of course, none of us worked for the government so we had a different way of measuring success than those who support these types of projects.
You can count me in the camp of the money would have been better spent on meaningful social programs instead of a perpetual money pit which is what CB is well on the way to becoming.
-
Richard C:
The county may have THOUGHT they were building Chambers Bay on the Bethpage Black model, but Bethpage was not built with $21 million of debt to pay off. Indeed, it was built with WPA money!! Perhaps Chambers Bay was just ten years too early -- they could be building it now for a fraction of the price and employing a lot of locals in the process.
-
How much do they expect to take in from the AM and the Open to pay down debt?
I interviewed for that job, and recall thinking it was too much money, even then. But they bought the property as public open space and wanted to reclaim it, so I figured if those parts of the costs were absorbed elsewhere it might make it on its own, but somehow, figured it would always need a one time subsidy to reduce its debt.
-
Anyone surprised?
$21 million is a ridiculous bubble related sum.
All part of the new (reset) template.
-
They netted only $15,000 on the Amateur, and now they are looking to the lucrative tourism market from China to help stabilize the balance sheet until the flood of money from the U.S. Open. More wishful thinking.
-
I saw a programme last night on PBS on the creation of the 1893 Chicago World Fair -- amazing what can be accomplished but so rarely is. I don't understand the economics or the politics, but it seems that today on projects like CB (or most any Olympic Games) there are some strange/dark forces at work that actually want to ensure these projects are financial failures. It might be that failures/problems are more lucrative than successes, i.e. they keep more people working for more years trying to fix the problem, whereas success is sort of a one off (unless you're the guy who can take sole credit for the success -- but of course, those same dark forces ensure that no one person can take all the credit or blame).
-
After the trillions we have sunked in to support Wall Street (so they can pull out hundreds of billions in bonuses), I think we can safely retire government vs private enterprise BS. Everything is government supported at this point.
Not quite. Everything BIG is government supported. You might consider looking up some definitions to see what that most closely resembles...
I hate someone dreaming with OPM.
-
How much do they expect to take in from the AM and the Open to pay down debt?
That's a good question. I'll venture a guess that they'll make around $4 million on the Open. Then the question remains how much more in the way of infrastructure will they build and how much will that cost. At the end of the proverbial day, they'll probably wind up with very little cash after the Open, but the course will be in pretty good shape going forward after its week of worldwide exposure.
-
I will first say that I thoroughly enjoyed CB and perhaps I was a bit spoiled because Richard Choi led me around - that's because he hits it 50 yards further than I do. The course is great but it is tough and unlike most courses which the average guy plays - firm and fast, contoured greens, etc. It is expensive but then again it is an Open venue which usually drives up the cost. That being said, the average guy isn't likely to pay $175 to play a course on a regular basis. The out of town guy in Seattle on business is interested but it isn't close to downtown so you need to rent a car to get there. I find it hard to believe that it cost so much to build but if that $21M is correct someone was totally unrealistic in believing that it could make money or even pay for itself.
-
They netted only $15,000 on the Amateur, and now they are looking to the lucrative tourism market from China to help stabilize the balance sheet until the flood of money from the U.S. Open. More wishful thinking.
If Julian Robertson was reading this thread, he would find a way to short the bond offering, except that $21 million is chump change on Wall Street. But perhaps there is some genius 24-year-old at Goldman who can figure out how to make a 50x leveraged play.
-
Calling Cos.
What is the name of that course south of CB built since 2000 that charges around $35 for visitors and has several fee plans for locals? I only played 4 holes there before being totally drenched, but from what I saw, it is a very good course and a great value.
With courses such as this one helping to set pricing, unless CB can capture the travelling golfer, what might be a sustainable avg. green fee and rounds played to BE (break even)? $50?
Assuming $21 Million in outstanding bonds, say at 4% i, amortizing it over 30 years, and using $1.5 Million annual operating expenses (maintenance, administrative, capital reserves, etc.- assume pro shop and F & B breaking even), we're talking around 54,000 paid rounds annually at a $50 avg. rate to BE. Can they physically sell that many rounds in that climate? At $75, it takes 36,000 rounds.
For other reasons as well, we might hope that China continues to build wealth and its golfing population. Perhaps the fine folks responsible for CB might consider seeking direct investment from the Chinese authorities who seem to be doing the social welfare thing much better than us. Come to think of it, if CB was built under Chinese methods and control, I wonder if the $20-some Million might have been three or four.
Richard Choi,
The stockholders of AIG, Lehman, GM, Chrysler, and the many banks merged or closed by the federal authorities might have a few bones to pick with you on your characterization of the bailout. Owners were wiped out, but the enterprise (the goose) was put on life support with hopes that it will survive awhile longer. Do you even wonder why Freddie and Fanny, arguably, the ones responsible for starting the snowball rolling, were exempted from the subsequent financial regulation? Was it a case of govt. professional courtesy?
BTW, since you're a smart guy and an insider, can you explain to me why I still have a 30%+ loss on my MSFT holdings well over 15 years after my investment while your boss' wealth continues to grow impressively? Is my common stock less common than his? Or does he continue to receive thousands of additional shares while the company basically stagnates and he is out pursuing non-MSFT Big Picture issues? Just wondering how the smarts guys do it, but I doubt that I could understand it anyways.
-
Lou, you're probably thinking of The Home Course in nearby DuPont, WA...
Really, nothing new in this thread at all--everything noted has been and will continue to be the reality for Chambers Bay for at least the next 5 years and likely long beyond that. Will it really be necessary to rehash this every time the News-Tribune or someone else publishes an update every year?
Also, it's not exactly nonsense, but the conditioning of the greens should in essence be a non-issue going forward. I think we can all agree that for $175 we would all like flawless greens, but they are no longer the problem that they legitimately were during the first two years of CB's life...It's now an "old-wives' tale" that is popular to moan about, but not grounded in the present day..
-
Thank you Peter. Yes, that's the one.
Does this course have a bearing on what people will pay for green fees at CB?
Even if the greens were Augusta National perfect, do you thing that CB could charge $175 and enough rounds to be financially viable? In your opinion, can the course achieve 36,000 at $75?
-
BTW, since you're a smart guy and an insider, can you explain to me why I still have a 30%+ loss on my MSFT holdings well over 15 years after my investment while your boss' wealth continues to grow impressively? Is my common stock less common than his? Or does he continue to receive thousands of additional shares while the company basically stagnates and he is out pursuing non-MSFT Big Picture issues? Just wondering how the smarts guys do it, but I doubt that I could understand it anyways.
Lou, I was amazed, several years during a college reunion on Orcas Island in the San Juans, to learn that virtually all the large homes, either new or under construction, were built by the so-called "Microsoft Millionaires."
Perhaps this is one of those rare occasions where maybe capitalism isn't all it's cracked up to be!
-
Just what is in the $21m number? I would like to see a breakdown of how it was arrived at. I would also like to see a comparison of the original "pre-design" Development and Operation Pro-Forma and current account revenues and expenditures.
Then I could arrive at a rational conclusion as to what the situation really is. It would also be good for others to have it for a Case Study.
I find it interesting that Lake County Illinois got sold the same bill of marketing goods with the development of Thunderhawk. It came in at more than double the original budget but was promised that it could deliver much from "out-of-area" play (that never developed).
Unfortunately, local government officials don't have the necessary background to make Development decisions and are too afraid to pull the plug once the ball gets rolling lest they look like they don't know what they are doing.
BTW, notice how the article skirts around the crux of the issue - How many rounds are played? And of that number how many are a) local, b) regional, c) out-of-area?
If I'm travelling on business - especially West Coast, playing golf is not an afterthought. I can get a late flight out. Playing golf not only means the extra expense of baggage fees for my clubs, but also a hotel night, a meal or 2 and most likely a rental car or taxi expense. Add close to $200 in greens fees and you're approaching a $400/rnd. Oh, and I get to know that I'm subsidizing the locals who are think the place should break even (ie not cost them anything to support via taxes).
-
Bill,
Capitalism absolutely sucks. It just happens to be infinitely superior than any other system thus far devised. We keep hearing of "The Third Way", but it is always a drift to socialism with the "good, smart people" making the decisions which always benefit a very small segment of people like themselves to the detriment of the rest.
I once met a young guy in his early to mid-30s who had just retired from Dell. The pro at this fantastic course said that the chap was worth somewhat north of $50 Million, and was at the club every day honing his game to compete at the amateur level nationally (I was a good 2 at that time, and this guy wiped me out- though the pro, who also played with us shot something like 10 under to set the new course record- quite a day!). Perhaps we just picked the wrong professions!
-
CB is walking only and the expected caddie fee is around $100 which makes it even more difficult to play on a regular basis if you're an older guy like me. The course is not an easy walk and the sandy waste areas are soft and tough to climb. I would suggest that they offer annual memberships which would generate upfront cash for them and a reduced fee for the player. I would further suggest a reduced fee for guests of members so members would be encouraged to invite their friends to play.
-
Just what is in the $21m number? I would like to see a breakdown of how it was arrived at. I would also like to see a comparison of the original "pre-design" Development and Operation Pro-Forma and current account revenues and expenditures.
Tim:
Glad you asked this question -- I couldn't find anything today in (admittedly, just a few minutes of doing so) searching through some archived news sources. The $21 million cited in the linked article is "loosely sourced," as we used to say in the news business -- a figure thrown out without any attribution, or any context of what was involved. The CBay area is, if I'm not mistaken, part of an enormous public park/recreation area that was once the mining operation.
-
Bill,
Capitalism absolutely sucks. It just happens to be infinitely superior than any other system thus far devised. We keep hearing of "The Third Way", but it is always a drift to socialism with the "good, smart people" making the decisions which always benefit a very small segment of people like themselves to the detriment of the rest.
I once met a young guy in his early to mid-30s who had just retired from Dell. The pro at this fantastic course said that the chap was worth somewhat north of $50 Million, and was at the club every day honing his game to compete at the amateur level nationally (I was a good 2 at that time, and this guy wiped me out- though the pro, who also played with us shot something like 10 under to set the new course record- quite a day!). Perhaps we just picked the wrong professions!
Are you saying that how the MSFT millionaires cashed in while you're down over 30% LTD (lifetime to date) represents a "drift to socialism?"
-
Anyone know what the managhement Co. Netted?
-
Are you saying that how the MSFT millionaires cashed in while you're down over 30% LTD (lifetime to date) represents a "drift to socialism?"
No. I should never have jumped into the tech bubble- long story, but it had to do with the city I lived in refusing me zoning to build a golf course for which I had some equity saved and needed to do something with it. I knew better, but I never liked sitting on cash and thought that maybe the smart guys who opined about a "paradigm shift" (in PE ratios for highly productive industries) could be right. What a stupid!
I am saying that people who are uncomfortable with market-led capitalism yet understand that socialism can't work yearn for another way. For example, our local newspaper prides itself on walking the center line, maybe leaning a little Republican, but mostly "progressive". Simultaneously, through its editorial page, it laments the decline of our (TX) educational system while endorsing amnesty and more open immigration. It seems to endorse "public/private" partnerships to solve all sorts of "fantasy problems" (e.g. bringing business and development to poor areas where market economics, crime, demographics, etc. won't support it). This is the drift to socialism that I am speaking about.
This drift from our founding is further illustrated by what James Madison had to say on govt. and charity below.
"In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, 'I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.'
-James Madison, 4 Annals of congress 179 (1794)
'…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.' "
-James Madison
I suspect that even "middle of the road" guys like you have a hard time understanding where Madison was coming from. In a continium with Madison (right) and Marx/Lenin at opposite ends, where would you put that "center" mark today? I would put it well left.
-
Lou, you mentioned the "drift to socialism" in the context of the MSFT insiders making fortunes while you didn't, so I'm not sure exactly where Madison and the "drift to socialism" come into the picture.
-
Lou:
Let me point out a fairly learned man -- Abe Lincoln -- once said the Republican party is for both the man and the dollar.
But when in conflict -- the man BEFORE the dollar.
Makes me wonder where the Grand Ole Party has gone wrong since his time. ;)
-
Matt: Enough with the politics and blaming everyone for everything. We are talking about how to keep an architecturally significant course going and where they went wrong so future planners don't make the same mistake.
-
I can't believe a site dedicated to golf is getting their panties in a bunch over 21 million dollars of government monies. I have plans to visit Seattle solely because of the construction of this course. It reminds me of the St. Louis Arch, who cares about the pay back if it becomes a symbol of a region.
Take a second and consider where 21 million stands in the scheme of government spending. Us golfers are lucky to get it and should hope to get some more.
-
Just what is in the $21m number? I would like to see a breakdown of how it was arrived at. I would also like to see a comparison of the original "pre-design" Development and Operation Pro-Forma and current account revenues and expenditures.
Tim:
Glad you asked this question -- I couldn't find anything today in (admittedly, just a few minutes of doing so) searching through some archived news sources. The $21 million cited in the linked article is "loosely sourced," as we used to say in the news business -- a figure thrown out without any attribution, or any context of what was involved. The CBay area is, if I'm not mistaken, part of an enormous public park/recreation area that was once the mining operation.
Phil, when I see these huge sums it usually has things lie debt service, non-golf items (in this case, perhaps the cost to turn the rest of th acrageinto a park, maintenance costs include the rest of the parkland in addition to the golf course, etc. I would also be interested in what the management company's role was in the pre-development or were they just hired after construction? If before, I wonder if their contract will be renewed?
John, "Government Monies"? By this, do you refer to taxes and fees of local residents?
-
Yes Government Monies are the monies the government gets their hands on. It is one reason I love the Arch and the St. Louis Zoo, two things I enjoy for free. The Arch I somehow supplement, the Zoo I do not. I love many of our government parks but hell I love our bombs and missiles and planes and things too. I just heart or government, sorry, can't help it.
-
Lou, you mentioned the "drift to socialism" in the context of the MSFT insiders making fortunes while you didn't, so I'm not sure exactly where Madison and the "drift to socialism" come into the picture.
I did no such thing. My reference to the drift to socialism was in response to your question specifically in the context of your often stated position as an independent, center-line person/voter.
My suggestion is that what you contend is the center can only be accurate if that line has greatly veered to the left. My reference to Madison, and I could have cited any number of our founding fathers, was to identify what might be the polar right of the economic and political continium.
I assume that the MSFT executives took advantage of options, warrants, etc. and the great appreciation during the company's earlier years and cashed some of their shares to enjoy their life's work and for financial diversification purposes. My question to Richard was serious, and since he is a smart guy who knows the company well, I thought he might be able to answer. I suppose I could do the research myself and find out what accounts for Gates' growing fortune, but I guess I am not that interested.
Matt,
One of the great ironies of taxes to pay for government services is that most people are for them so long it is someone else who pays for them and tey like to use or depend on those services. During the Buda this year I was astounded by comments made by one of the guys who posts on this site from time-to-time with a clear Democrat slant. He was talking about how his business allowed him to avoid paying taxes and didn't appear to think there was anything incongruent between his political orientation and his actual behavior. I think this chap has a lot of company in your side of the aisle. That around 50% of the American people were for maintaining the Bush tax cuts for all brackets is a wonder considering that well over 95% would not have been affected by the Democrat's stance increasing the rate on "the rich".
RE: Lincoln and the GOP, his ire would not be in the direction you suggest. You see Matt, and I know that you will never believe this, if you do as you seem to indicate, you will have far more Men than Dollars and getting worse ad infinitum. We have one of the most progressive tax systems in the Western World, and it is still not enough for your guys. We will either learn to make do on around 19% of GDP, or we will erode into economic oblivion. Regardless what the "progressives" can show you with their impressive research and "experinmental economics", it really is that simple. Something to do with the vulgar expression about IF ("my aunt had a [certain part of the male anatomy], she'd be my uncle").
Jerry,
I will accept your admonishment to Matt and cease. I didn't mean to get carried away. Time for another 12-month hiatus.
-
Lou, you're probably thinking of The Home Course in nearby DuPont, WA...
Really, nothing new in this thread at all--everything noted has been and will continue to be the reality for Chambers Bay for at least the next 5 years and likely long beyond that. Will it really be necessary to rehash this every time the News-Tribune or someone else publishes an update every year?
Also, it's not exactly nonsense, but the conditioning of the greens should in essence be a non-issue going forward. I think we can all agree that for $175 we would all like flawless greens, but they are no longer the problem that they legitimately were during the first two years of CB's life...It's now an "old-wives' tale" that is popular to moan about, but not grounded in the present day..
Agreed. The greens are much better now. But people have long memories of paying $175 when the greens were quite poor...
-
Lou: I don't have a problem with discussing the issue but Matt seems hung-up on turning things into a political war. Microsoft may be relevant as it is a Seattle based company but unfortunately it is not located anywhere near CB and my recent trip out there exposed me to some ugly traffic problems.
-
Jerry,
I am the one who brought Microsoft into the thread, unwisely I might add, and it really doesn't have much bearing on this discussion. I have a burr in an uncomfortable place having to do with my investment in that company, and for whatever reason, when Richard Choi posts, the irritation comes to mind. Nothing to do with Richard at all, he seems to be a fine young man; it is solely my problem that I need to get over.
Concernig traffic, on my two visits from Bellevue down to CH, traffic was difficult. The twilight round and dinner was easier, missing the rush hours.
Sean,
What will that market bear even if the greens are perfect?
How many rounds do the best munis do annually? How about Aldarra?
-
Jerry:
Hold the phone amigo.
The thread was ALREADY CRUSING AT HIGH SPEED before I interjected.
Target the venom and angst at another direction -- please.
Jerry, the war was already underway with the deviation from the topic at-hand. If you want to target me -- fine, just be sure to be fair and add the main folks who hijacked the thread long before I got involved.
adios partner ...
-
Jerry,
I am the one who brought Microsoft into the thread, unwisely I might add, and it really doesn't have much bearing on this discussion. I have a burr in an uncomfortable place having to do with my investment in that company, and for whatever reason, when Richard Choi posts, the irritation comes to mind. Nothing to do with Richard at all, he seems to be a fine young man; it is solely my problem that I need to get over.
Concernig traffic, on my two visits from Bellevue down to CH, traffic was difficult. The twilight round and dinner was easier, missing the rush hours.
Sean,
What will that market bear even if the greens are perfect?
How many rounds do the best munis do annually? How about Aldarra?
Lou,
I am not sure what the market will be. The greens are much much better but they still have a bad reputation, whether deserved or not.With the reduced fees for locals, it might go up. My course does 11-12k per year which is very light. Most other privates do 20-25k. The Munis probably do about the same, but charge 35 bucks, not 175.
All of the local clubs are hurting to some extent, and there are some really great deals out there. If you play a lot of golf around here, chances are you are a member of a private course, IMO. Unless you are Rich Choi.
-
All of the local clubs are hurting to some extent, and there are some really great deals out there. If you play a lot of golf around here, chances are you are a member of a private course, IMO. Unless you are Rich Choi.
Not when you lost FAR more on MSFT stock than Lou did... ;)
-
With all due respect to Cos, the home course will get minimal play from the traveling golfer. It is a nice but nothing special course. I think Peter, Cos and Sean understand this deal better than most of the guys posting. As I noted earlier there is much much more to this story than we(GCA) seems to want to discuss or understand. I laughed when I read Brad comment about China. lol As most travelers know it is miserable for others to visit the USA. It is not much fun for US citizens to come home. But if they had a welcome Chinese line that took less than 30 seconds to get through, there would not be enough play to give over $100,000 to the bottom line each year. Oh by the by they had a line like that for the Arabic countries in Houston a few years during an Oil industry trade show.
-
Lou Duran,
I feel compelled, out of the goodness in my heart, to call you on this one. I just checked the Forbes 400 list of wealthiest Americans for the years 2000 and 2010.
According to Forbes, Gates was worth $63B in 2000, but only $54B in 2010. So he's down 14% or so over the last decade, like the rest of us.
The S&P 500 was around 1450 in September, 2000, and is around 1250 now, which is also a 14% drop in value. He would have to take some significant capital gains to diversify (now 15%), but Washington state has no state income tax.
-
It seems to me that $21m is highly excessive, but if the land acquisition was significant and written off to the County as another of it's long term assets, (even if it does lose money, they have built more green space for the people), and everyone takes the long term view of golf course, will residents and critics look upon the construction in 100 years time, as one of the great projects ever invested by the County?
Clearly, it seems like they have paid far above the odds for construction, and surely they could reduce expenses by bringing management in house instead of another Sports Management company - they need to make large profits/bring in expenses to cover their large company strucure and returns.
With the long term approach, price points will sort themselves out, manage the design and construction costs over the longer term sans land acquisition, community should then be able to embrace CB, and ensure it's success gor them and their children's children. Eventually it will be an income producing asset that fits well with small local govt investment in their constituents - win win for all. And us golfers get another great track!
The hijacking with the American politics is frustrating, tedious and distracting, how hard is it to just take your OTT where it belongs?!
-
John,
Not wanting to put myself into the middle of the discussion, but I think you just made the classic mistake that many researchers do, namely they have come to a conclusion and then produce the vidence to "prove" it.
You stated, "According to Forbes, Gates was worth $63B in 2000, but only $54B in 2010. So he's down 14% or so over the last decade, like the rest of us."
What you seem to be forgetting are the multiple billions of dollars that Mr. gates has given to charity in that same time period vastly reducing his net worth...
There's my one punch and I'm out of this ring... ;D
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
-
Philip,
I am well aware that Gates may actually spend money along the way. It's a simplification. Lou indicated he thought Gates was getting richer. I doubt it. It would be difficult for anyone whose wealth was accumulated at Microsoft to be doing better than 2000, during the Nasdaq bubble.
-
Tiger:
Curious comment --
"It is a nice but nothing special course."
In terms of a Doak rating what # would you give it ?
As a public course where would you rate it -- top 10%, top third, top half -- or even higher than that ?
And, if you were a taxpayer for that jurisdiction would you have supported such a referenda for its construction and development ?
If so -- why? And if not -- why not ?
-
Matt,
He is talking about The Home Course, not CB.
-
There's my one punch and I'm out of this ring... ;D
Well, I tried to land one glancing blow, but missed the mark.
Have you seen "The Fighter"? Might be a classic. Christian Bale has a chance for an Oscar.
-
I feel compelled, out of the goodness in my heart, to call you on this one. I just checked the Forbes 400 list of wealthiest Americans for the years 2000 and 2010.
According to Forbes, Gates was worth $63B in 2000, but only $54B in 2010. So he's down 14% or so over the last decade, like the rest of us.
The S&P 500 was around 1450 in September, 2000, and is around 1250 now, which is also a 14% drop in value. He would have to take some significant capital gains to diversify (now 15%), but Washington state has no state income tax.
But he's taken a lot of money out during that time. A billion or more each year, I used to understand. If so, that could push him back up to or above his year 2000 total.
-
Jud & Phil,
There are enough people visiting Seattle during the summer months from all over the world already to fill up the tee sheets, unlike Bandon. They need to make sure that those people know that Chambers Bay exists. They also need to concentrate on filling out the winter months with local players.
Sure, Seattle is a destination in its own right, there is plenty of business travel and plenty of tourism. But not being a golf destination is still a problem, because many people are like me, and won't deal with the hassle of bringing clubs to play one course. Even moreso now that you are paying $100-$150 extra on most airlines to bring those clubs.
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
If $175 is insane for Chambers Bay, then $250 is insane for Bandon.
Have you played the course?
There has been an awful lot of BS on this thread about MSFT and Bill Gates. You guys act like he is the only CEO in the world that has received bazillions in stock options. You would be much harder pressed to name CEOs that aren't raping their companies and the stock holders with stock option grants and the such for mediocre performance.
Finally McBride, you clearly don't understand what a Microsoft millionaire is. You insinuate that is executives that made out like bandits. In reality, Microsoft millionaires come from across the company. A very high percentage of the technical people that joined the company early enough are Microsoft millionaires. If you bought the stock during the early years, there was a good chance you could become a Microsoft millionaire. The company went from nothing to being valued at one point as the most valuable company in the world if my memory serves me right. If you got in at the beginning you were going to make out like a bandit. Clearly Lou got in after the growth peaked.
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
If $175 is insane for Chambers Bay, then $250 is insane for Bandon.
If Bandon had to rely on a local market, $250 would be fatal. I bet that is true, even if it were near a major metro area.
Bandon gets the national market, in part because it has four courses, each of which is usually ranked above CB. Having greens that are beyond marginally playable helps, too.
On Gates: I don't begrudge whatever money he made or took out. My programmer friends all think he (his monopoly) held back computers and the Internet about a decade though. If they are right, it's interesting to think how much more advanced we would be today.
-
Tim Nugent said:
Just what is in the $21m number? I would like to see a breakdown of how it was arrived at. I would also like to see a comparison of the original "pre-design" Development and Operation Pro-Forma and current account revenues and expenditures.
It seems to me that given that high of a number, and all the basic simple math one can do regarding how many rounds are needed in a market where other muni rounds go for ~$35, at what price this project logically had to charge to make that nut; then this decision to go forward could only be made by some very well schooled and refined 'high finance' practitioners, because a simple fool could never conceive of something this convoluted... ::) ;D
I've been to CB and loved it as a golf design on the site and how it was done architecturally and construction wise, along with the intended design, maintenance meld with style of play theme. But, at that price, it was never going to succeed, it seems to me.
-
According to the News Tribune, "Chambers Bay finished 2009 with a deficit of $1.3 million on revenue of $5.5 million. One reason: fewer golfers willing to pay up to $169 for a round of golf.
According to its latest financial report, golfers played 31,834 rounds in 2009 – 17 percent fewer than the previous year. The course budgeted for 36,372 rounds in 2009. In addition, food and beverage sales declined 15 percent. Merchandise sales were down 22 percent."
Average revenue per round was around $172. That includes food, beverage and merchandise sales. But they needed another $40 per round to break even. Interesting that even the 36,372 rounds they budgeted would still have brought a loss, assuming peripheral sales stayed the same per person.
At costs of $6.8 million, we can figure out how many rounds they needed in 2009 to break even at various price points. The prices include food, beverage and merchandise sales. I'm assuming costs stay the same, no matter how many rounds they handle. (They may not.)
At $100 a round Chambers Bay needed 68,000 rounds. At $75, it needed over 90,000 rounds.
$6.8 million in costs seem real heavy to me. Wonder what that includes, and how they could bring the figure down.
-
Re. Jim's point, anyone out there know what's a reasonable number of rounds per year for a course? I'm thinking 10-minute intervals, fewer rounds on Mondays and Tuesdays, some weak months in the winter. What's an attainable figure, not figuring cost into it, i.e, how many rounds a year can the course handle?
-
i wonder how much the "no-cart " policy hurts the bottom line...
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
Finally McBride, you clearly don't understand what a Microsoft millionaire is. You insinuate that is executives that made out like bandits. In reality, Microsoft millionaires come from across the company. A very high percentage of the technical people that joined the company early enough are Microsoft millionaires. If you bought the stock during the early years, there was a good chance you could become a Microsoft millionaire. The company went from nothing to being valued at one point as the most valuable company in the world if my memory serves me right. If you got in at the beginning you were going to make out like a bandit. Clearly Lou got in after the growth peaked.
That's "Mister McBride" to you!
Nothing tough to comprehend about "Microsoft millionaires." People who work/worked for Microsoft and cashed in stock for a fortune. I didn't say it was a pejorative.
What happened to that "Gambers Baysound" guy? ???
-
According to the News Tribune, "Chambers Bay finished 2009 with a deficit of $1.3 million on revenue of $5.5 million. One reason: fewer golfers willing to pay up to $169 for a round of golf.
According to its latest financial report, golfers played 31,834 rounds in 2009 – 17 percent fewer than the previous year. The course budgeted for 36,372 rounds in 2009. In addition, food and beverage sales declined 15 percent. Merchandise sales were down 22 percent."
Average revenue per round was around $172. That includes food, beverage and merchandise sales. But they needed another $40 per round to break even. Interesting that even the 36,372 rounds they budgeted would still have brought a loss, assuming peripheral sales stayed the same per person.
At costs of $6.8 million, we can figure out how many rounds they needed in 2009 to break even at various price points. The prices include food, beverage and merchandise sales. I'm assuming costs stay the same, no matter how many rounds they handle. (They may not.)
At $100 a round Chambers Bay needed 68,000 rounds. At $75, it needed over 90,000 rounds.
$6.8 million in costs seem real heavy to me. Wonder what that includes, and how they could bring the figure down.
I am assuming that these numbers don't include caddies as well. They are fairly service heavy (which they need to be at that price point). I live here but honestly have no idea what the top course is in terms of number of rounds. At their play rate, they averaged about 85 golfers per day, or 21 foursomes. Would love to see how many rounds were at the local rate. I have played it maybe 6-7 times and every time it seems like there are more out of towners than locals..
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
Finally McBride, you clearly don't understand what a Microsoft millionaire is. You insinuate that is executives that made out like bandits. In reality, Microsoft millionaires come from across the company. A very high percentage of the technical people that joined the company early enough are Microsoft millionaires. If you bought the stock during the early years, there was a good chance you could become a Microsoft millionaire. The company went from nothing to being valued at one point as the most valuable company in the world if my memory serves me right. If you got in at the beginning you were going to make out like a bandit. Clearly Lou got in after the growth peaked.
That's "Mister McBride" to you!
Nothing tough to comprehend about "Microsoft millionaires." People who work/worked for Microsoft and cashed in stock for a fortune. I didn't say it was a pejorative.
What happened to that "Gambers Baysound" guy? ???
Well, I recon I'll start referring to you as Mister McBride when you start referring to me as Dr. Bayley. As far as comprehending Microsoft millionaires is concerned, you earlier claimed it was "insiders" which would mean certain high level execs and members of the accounting or financial departments. Now it is just "people" employed by Microsoft. You are still leaving out those with the insight to buy the stock of a company with a bright future.
Gambers Baysound is that guy that is trying to give up this addictive habit.
-
When I was out in the PNW, I was shocked and amazed at how many golfers walked. I probably toured at least 5 courses and the majority were walking. So, the only reasons people would choose to stay away from CB, would be 1. Price 2. Logistics and 3.The perceived quality of the design.
With a preponderance of courses that are heavily tree lined, I'd speculate that the links style of CB is not to the liking of the local avid golfer.
For those that don't know, I believe a huge chunk of the debt is from cleaning up the site, prior to construction.
As someone correctly mentioned, the long term view is the only way to look at this. But if they can't make money on 5.5m worth of revenue, something is rotten.
-
...
With a preponderance of courses that are heavily tree lined, I'd speculate that the links style of CB is not to the liking of the local avid golfer.
...
There is a strong preference for treed courses out here. So much so it would seem every super that removes a tree knows his job may be short lived. I have heard the sentiment, "why should I play there, there are no trees?"
As to the 21 million, the entire site was stripped, the sand sifted, and then hauled back to rid the grounds of the debris from the mining period.
I think the entire state should be grateful that the site did not just become another Microsoft millionaire enclave. ;)
-
It is absolutely crazy that a muni turning over $5.5 Million cannot take a serious bite out of the debt. On the flip side, why is a muni borrowing money for cleanup job on a site? At the very least this should be seen as for the public good and should have state/federal authorities footing the bill. In any case, I think a muni on this scale and with debt is beyond the pale. I can see wanting to cleanup a site, but does that take such a heavy debt burden? Regardless of these sorts of issues, I can't see myself getting on a plane to play CB. Perhaps if I was in town and it was convenient, but a special trip - what are lot made of money?
Ciao
-
i'd have to agree, Adam. Something is very strange about that 5.5Mm when the debt cost at 5% on a muni rate (very high figure) is about 1.2 and dedicate 1M to retirement paydown, and 1.5 to maintenance. Methinks the management co is walking away with about 1.8 or so...
At those prices per round for a muni with all the attendant extra costs mentioned from travel for out of towners to caddie fees along with comparative public golf costs for that market, one could only see those number of rounds decrease.
You would think a sharp operator could come in and take over a gen manager position and make it go handsomely on 5.5 in sales/rev. Maybe, I'm just naive... ::) :)
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
If $175 is insane for Chambers Bay, then $250 is insane for Bandon.
Have you played the course?
Bandon is a destination golf resort with four courses on property. CB is a stand alone muni. I haven't played the course, and I don't have to to say that $175 for a muni is insane.
-
i'd have to agree, Adam. Something is very strange about that 5.5Mm when the debt cost at 5% on a muni rate (very high figure) is about 1.2 and dedicate 1M to retirement paydown, and 1.5 to maintenance. Methinks the management co is walking away with about 1.8 or so...
At those prices per round for a muni with all the attendant extra costs mentioned from travel for out of towners to caddie fees along with comparative public golf costs for that market, one could only see those number of rounds decrease.
You would think a sharp operator could come in and take over a gen manager position and make it go handsomely on 5.5 in sales/rev. Maybe, I'm just naive... ::) :)
I know for a fact that your estimate of $1.5M for maintenance costs is high. As of 2008, the number was considerably less. $1M is a better estimate.
It's hard for a Pacific Northwest course to get more than 30,000 rounds.
$21M is just too much to spend on a golf course. The chances of financial viability at that cost are slim at best.
Speaking of maintenance, the course will be more attractive once fescues are better established in the waste areas.
-
Lou Duran,
I feel compelled, out of the goodness in my heart, to call you on this one. I just checked the Forbes 400 list of wealthiest Americans for the years 2000 and 2010.
According to Forbes, Gates was worth $63B in 2000, but only $54B in 2010. So he's down 14% or so over the last decade, like the rest of us.
The S&P 500 was around 1450 in September, 2000, and is around 1250 now, which is also a 14% drop in value. He would have to take some significant capital gains to diversify (now 15%), but Washington state has no state income tax.
Bless your good heart Mr. Kirk. Maybe after planning his estate and taking many billions of his hard earned dollars from the reach of the "Death Tax" Mr. Gates is now comparatively poorer at $54 Billion. Mind you, I bear no grudge against the man- I actually greatly admire him but for one thing: his well-publicized desire to codify his preferences on the dispostion of wealth into law. And I have no dog in this fight as I will inheret nothing of significant monetary value or will likely leave an estate to my heirs that would warrant the attention of your sort. Not only from a "fairness" perspective, but more so from a moral foundation, I claim no right to the fruits of anyone else's wealth, their property, and to do as they will with it.
That said, perhaps my thoughts on Mr. Gates' expanding wealth are misinformed. However, using available metrics, he remains near the top of American wealth. Even without any necessary adjustments for his expenditures and charitable giving, you suggest his wealth "declined" in step with the economy (using the S & P as a proxy). As of closing yesterday, I am down 36% on my MSFT investment, with the largest part of it being made in the mid-late '90s as I recall (reinvesting dividends for most of that period). Again, I am not assigning blame to Gates; no CEO ever put a gun to my head and forced me to buy stock in their company. If I am frustrated, it is of my own doing, and regret bringing it public here. Sorry.
Quote from: Jim Nugent on Yesterday at 07:45:13 PM
According to the News Tribune, "Chambers Bay finished 2009 with a deficit of $1.3 million on revenue of $5.5 million. One reason: fewer golfers willing to pay up to $169 for a round of golf.
According to its latest financial report, golfers played 31,834 rounds in 2009 – 17 percent fewer than the previous year. The course budgeted for 36,372 rounds in 2009. In addition, food and beverage sales declined 15 percent. Merchandise sales were down 22 percent."
Average revenue per round was around $172. That includes food, beverage and merchandise sales. But they needed another $40 per round to break even. Interesting that even the 36,372 rounds they budgeted would still have brought a loss, assuming peripheral sales stayed the same per person.
At costs of $6.8 million, we can figure out how many rounds they needed in 2009 to break even at various price points. The prices include food, beverage and merchandise sales. I'm assuming costs stay the same, no matter how many rounds they handle. (They may not.)
At $100 a round Chambers Bay needed 68,000 rounds. At $75, it needed over 90,000 rounds.
$6.8 million in costs seem real heavy to me. Wonder what that includes, and how they could bring the figure down.
Great information here Jim. Like our budget problems at various levels of government, the focus should be on the spending side, yet the inclination is to focus on revenues. A return to a more normal economy will help revenues, but not nearly enough to reach BE. It would indeed be interesting to have an unobstructed look at the books, but as Archie Struthers noted in another thread, the transparency we should demand of public expenditures and are required of publicly traded companies is not likely. My bet is that the $6.8 Million includes a bunch of non-golf related political functions as well as others that do little to contribute to the bottom line.
I am astounded that the course did over 38,000 rounds in 2008. Maybe ratings do drive volume, but then it is up to the course to capture those first time players. I wonder if this figure includes non-revenue rounds, and what percentage is attributed to corporate outings. I would have thought that 38,000 rounds would be at the upper end of the range once operations are stabalized. In that environment, I can't see much upside on # of rounds, so essentially variable pricing strategies may be counterproductive, which means that revenue measures are nearly impossible.
One other consideration is that the course will one day need a permanent clubhouse. If the course in its current form cost $21 Million- though we don't know how much of this includes the cost of remediation and site preparation- how much will the new clubhouse set the good folks of the community back?
-
Where's Choi when we need him? ???
Everyone keeps throwing around this "$21 million" figure for "a golf course," and I have yet to see anything that suggests that's what the county spent on the CBay golf course in and of itself.
Wasn't this a 900+ acre site? Used to be a mine? Bought by the county some 10 years prior to the golf course being built? Aren't there other recreational uses of this property?
I'm not trying to defend CBay here, or its inability to lure more golfers. Just trying to get some context into the discussion.
John -- 30,000 rounds seems low. How long is the (practical) season there? It's gotta' be more than six months.
-
$5.5 million in revenue should be plenty to operate an 18 hole facility in the black. Something stinks here, and it stinks real bad...
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
If $175 is insane for Chambers Bay, then $250 is insane for Bandon.
Have you played the course?
Bandon is a destination golf resort with four courses on property. CB is a stand alone muni. I haven't played the course, and I don't have to to say that $175 for a muni is insane.
Bethpage Black is $130 weekdays, $150 weekends, and was built with federal money during the depression.
I guess insanity runs rampant on the coasts.
Everyone keeps saying Bandon makes it because there are four courses. How conveniently everyone forgets they started with one, and were not suffering for a lack of golfers.
Golfweek top modern has Chambers Bay ranked higher than Bandon Trails. So if you are willing to pay $250 to play Bandon Trails, you should be delighted to pay $175 to play Chambers Bay.
So Greg, if you have paid $250 to play Bandon Trails, I would have to wonder about your sanity. ;)
-
I am not sure why Chambers Bay is taking a hit here, as I loved what I saw on TV last summer. It seems like you can replace the words CB with just about any golf course built in the last 10 years outside of the Bandon Resort courses and the figures and numbers would probably be similar.
My guess is the debt did not match the true market time to payoff. It will make Lou crazy but as a muni, they will get as much time as they need to restructure as the county will not let this change their bond rating over $21 million.
Just for perspective of comparing leisure infrastructure, Disney is launching two cruise ships this year that EACH cost $1.0 billion dollars. Most cruise ships cost $600-700 million. I have no idea how long the payoff is on those cruise ships, but it is probably longer than a golf course and a golf course does not "wear out".
How many times did Fishers Island almost go bankrupt?
-
Garland,
You're comparing apples to oranges with the Bandon v CB. Two completely different models. The purpose of a muni is to provide affordable golf to the masses, and $175/round ain't that.
BTW, I haven't knocked the course itself at all. From what I've seen, it looks like a great place. But I am certainly questioning their business model.
-
I know we had some interesting discussion on here about the site development before construction even started, and the gents from the area weighing in on the rationale being thrown around to go forward with the project. Jay Blasi and others near the project made a number of posts.
I'm just not one to try and dig up the old posts, with this bauky search engine. ::) ;D
As I remember, the cement company went under, and there was no funds available to clean up the site. It strikes me that it was truly a waste site in need of clean-up, and I'm not sure why the EPA fund didn't come to bare. Hell, even Kohler got $$ for clean-up aspects of Whistling STraits, but then he was a crony with GHWB and well wired... ::) :o
But, as much as I love golf and to see great GCA go forward, it can't be at the cost of the local muni at these rates, it seems to me. If a generous benefactor like an Allen or Gates don't come forward and gift something like this to the community, I really don't see how it could go forward at those projected costs. But, it did, and with 5.5million in rev, I still can't see why this is losing $$$. I also can't see that if they don't straighten out the answer to how to market this as is, and make it go, how they can sink more in for a speculation that upping the ante on food and bev will pull them out of the spiral.
Now, the real hard test seems to me to keep those that still would play at these high comparative prices to other public golf to keep coming back (no matter how good it is). I know that my comments were high on maintenance costs and actual cost to pay interest on the bond, but just for consideration of the higher cost of the issue with fussy fescue management and wiggle room, it seems that there is still ample room to refigure a budget that makes sense. I bet a guy like 'big JIm Thompon could make it go, or I'd put Lou on the case, seriously!!! But, I'd keep him off the computer and out of local political chat rooms out there... ::) ;) ;D
-
...and with 5.5million in rev, I still can't see why this is losing $$$.
It's quite simple - when you play with OPM, you don't place the necessary priority on controlling costs.
-
$175 for a muni course is insane.
Finally McBride, you clearly don't understand what a Microsoft millionaire is. You insinuate that is executives that made out like bandits. In reality, Microsoft millionaires come from across the company. A very high percentage of the technical people that joined the company early enough are Microsoft millionaires. If you bought the stock during the early years, there was a good chance you could become a Microsoft millionaire. The company went from nothing to being valued at one point as the most valuable company in the world if my memory serves me right. If you got in at the beginning you were going to make out like a bandit. Clearly Lou got in after the growth peaked.
That's "Mister McBride" to you!
Nothing tough to comprehend about "Microsoft millionaires." People who work/worked for Microsoft and cashed in stock for a fortune. I didn't say it was a pejorative.
What happened to that "Gambers Baysound" guy? ???
Well, I recon I'll start referring to you as Mister McBride when you start referring to me as Dr. Bayley. As far as comprehending Microsoft millionaires is concerned, you earlier claimed it was "insiders" which would mean certain high level execs and members of the accounting or financial departments. Now it is just "people" employed by Microsoft. You are still leaving out those with the insight to buy the stock of a company with a bright future.
Gambers Baysound is that guy that is trying to give up this addictive habit.
Here's my original quote, I never said anything about "insiders."
"Lou, I was amazed, several years during a college reunion on Orcas Island in the San Juans, to learn that virtually all the large homes, either new or under construction, were built by the so-called "Microsoft Millionaires.""
I think calling me "McBride" is pretty rude.
-
Where's Choi when we need him? ???
What do you need Richard for? He's somewhat expert on playing the course, not necessarily on the history.
Everyone keeps throwing around this "$21 million" figure for "a golf course," and I have yet to see anything that suggests that's what the county spent on the CBay golf course in and of itself.
I organized the GCA.COM pre-opening outing at Chambers Bay. If my memory serves me right, 21 million is the figure that RTJ II, Inc. gave us as the cost to build the course, buildings, and walking path. A significant portion of that went to remediation of the site as I posted earlier.
Wasn't this a 900+ acre site? Used to be a mine? Bought by the county some 10 years prior to the golf course being built? Aren't there other recreational uses of this property?
As I mentioned, there is a walking path (paved) through the golf course starting on Grandview Drive, which is most appropriately named. Clearly far more people use the site for free every day than use it to play golf. They can walk the length of the course on the walking path off Grandview Drive, and then down through the course and back to their starting point as they exit the course grounds.
I'm not trying to defend CBay here, or its inability to lure more golfers. Just trying to get some context into the discussion.
John -- 30,000 rounds seems low. How long is the (practical) season there? It's gotta' be more than six months.
The season here is 12 months minus perhaps at most two weeks for a few weather closures like frozen grounds for a few days, or snow on the ground for a day or two. Very similar to Bandon. I had friends take a trip to Bandon around Thanksgiving, and they were not allowed on a course for one whole day, because of frozen turf. However, the vast majority of golfers choose not to play perhaps six of those months due to the rain.
-
Lou, you mentioned the "drift to socialism" in the context of the MSFT insiders making fortunes while you didn't, so I'm not sure exactly where Madison and the "drift to socialism" come into the picture.
Bill,
Which part of that does not say "insiders"?
-
Through the haze, I'm beginning to see.
The county bought the property 10 yrs ago - 900+ acres, (that's a pretty hefty chunk of RE)
As a Brownfield, it was in need of some restoration/cleanup - but that could cost a lot of money.
Soooo, it can't be just a passive park, it needs to have some Revenue producing component to pay for the cleanup.
Hey, a Golf Course makes money and can be made as part of the cleanup.
But, $35/round, like the other Muni's won't make it fly - we need to charge more, a lot more.
Let's bring in a BIG NAME architect who will attract a National audience. Then we can charge whatever we need to pay for everything. And all those travellers will have to rent cars, buy meals and stay in hotels - everybody wins.
-
Lou, you mentioned the "drift to socialism" in the context of the MSFT insiders making fortunes while you didn't, so I'm not sure exactly where Madison and the "drift to socialism" come into the picture.
Bill,
Which part of that does not say "insiders"?
Read a little farther back, I was responding to Lou.
-
OK, let's dispense with a lot of the speculations around here and let's get to some facts.
Here are the budget costs for Chambers Bay via Pierce County's published budget reports:
2004: $607,520
2005: $4,517,230
2006: $14,378,220
2007: $7,456,640
For 2007, the revenue was $2.4 million and the operating expense was $1.7 million, but I believe that included the cost of buying the equipment. There is a bond payment of about $900k, so for them to be profitable, the revenue needs to be $1 million over expense. I believe they should expect about $2.1 to $2.5 million in revenue yearly, which means they need to keep the operating expense at $1 million and lower. Whether or not that is realistic, I will leave to others who know better.
As to the construction cost. You have to remember that the entire property is close to 1000 acres and they had to do some significant earth moving just to get rid of all the damage done by the sand/gravel mine that existed before. It would not surprise me if that alone took a huge chunk of the $21 million budget. There are also a public bridge, footpath, and two separate public park areas. Not usual construction items you see on a golf course. My guess is the course probably cost around $15 million to build.
As to the green fees. That was set by Kemper Sports, not the county, based on their experience with other similar properties (i.e Bandon Dunes). So, if you want to blame someone for that, blame the private enterprise that set it, not the government officials.
-
As to the green fees. That was set by Kemper Sports, not the county, based on their experience with other similar properties (i.e Bandon Dunes). So, if you want to blame someone for that, blame the private enterprise that set it, not the government officials.
Sorry, Richard, the buck stops with the owner.
At any rate, it's interesting how different your figures are from the earlier numbers tossed around, thanks for digging them up.
-
George, PingWOPM at unseemly risk seems to be the way of the world in all sectors of the economy, with the few odd exceptions, no?
Wall st plays with other people's money. And, I guess you are correct, they don't pay much attention to costs or risk, as we painfully see, since their skin don't actually seem to be in the fire with bonus's even if there is failure.
Relating this to the decisions at CB, I think the important point to be investigated is, did certain people in the decision process improperly or disproportionately benefit from playing with other people's money, or money other people may have to continue to pay in subsidies to the original bonding concept, to keep this going? The bonding process and mechanism is one thing, based on issuance and bond buyers taking risk. Wouldn't a little due diligence by those bond raters find that the whole set up does not make economic sense based on the numbers of the known market that could be supported? It seems to me if a simple SOB like myself, and many others who have weighed in and can sense up front it is too much borrowing to be supported by an unproven and unlikely market, then I'd have to think a few geniuses that actually rate these issuances could figure that out. But, now after the fact, the burden to taxpayers on the ongoing basis seems to me to be a folllow-on question to be answered.
In the case of Wall st bailouts and the like, as was argued earlier, someone who has played and is playing with OPM is getting handsome bonus and undeserved benefit from all of US for failure and cavallier attitudes about OPM. The OP whose money or whose strength of our money system via fed reserve machinations is being put on all of our shoulders is grotesque and unconscionable, IMHO.
At CB, is OPM being spent now to subsidize failure and yet going to unduly enhance the management co.?
I don't know the correct answer. But it seems several of us on this discussion smell something rotten and fishy emanating from the shores of that Sound.
-
George, PingWOPM at unseemly risk seems to be the way of the world in all sectors of the economy, with the few odd exceptions, no?
There is a world of difference between playing with public tax money and playing with investment capital, but each have their own built-in hazards.
-
ok- I propose that going forward anyone who makes a non-golf related eco/political comment on this board, including myself, buys the first round of drinks at the next gathering of 2 or more GCA folks....wherupon we can engage in a drunken heated eco/political discussion....
-
Jud, OK, but what do we do with the fiscal-political and socio-political topics? ::) :) It seems to me that golf is all about eco/political and in this case at CB, fiscal/political. How can you ignore a key aspect of the topic and continue to discuss the issue?
I am sure a comment like mine, or the one that set you on your long series of debating points on investment and risk and whose money and all that gets your dander up. But, your plea for diversion from sticky topics and retiring to the next communal 19th hole won't really be any more effective than the last 10000 pleas for same over the many years here on GCA.com. We just can't help ourselves. ;D
-
Garland,
You're comparing apples to oranges with the Bandon v CB. Two completely different models. The purpose of a muni is to provide affordable golf to the masses, and $175/round ain't that.
BTW, I haven't knocked the course itself at all. From what I've seen, it looks like a great place. But I am certainly questioning their business model.
Greg,
The masses are paying $49 green fees right now. For the quality of golf there that is pretty affordable.
Off hand I know of only one other municipality that has regular munis and a premium muni. That would be Bismarck ND, where the regular munis are getting an $18 green fee, and Hawktree is getting $70. Don't know exactly what the green fee goes to for the summer at Chambers Bay, because the information is not on their website. They do give $75 for April and May.
If you go to Chambers Bay, you did not put up any of the money to build the place, you are not obligated to carry any of the debt through your water and sewage district, so your playing there is very much analogous to your playing at Bandon. The quality of the golf is comparable, so where's you reluctance for paying $175 coming from?
-
No carts, no cash!
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
Garland/Gambers...forget about Bandon as a comp to Chambers, because as you know Bandon is the best golf resort in the world.
Beach Loop, a par 3, 12 hole course is now being built as their 5th or 6th or 7th course depending on whether you count Shortys or the Sheep Ranch.
What will the green fee be for 12 holes at Beach Loop, LOL?
Thanks ;)
-
... because as you know Bandon is the best golf resort in the world.
...
No, you silly duck. Casa de Campo is the best golf resort in the world. Bandon was just built by a bunch of Pete Dye wanna bes.
-
hahaha, Go Ducks!
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.
-
Garland,
You're comparing apples to oranges with the Bandon v CB. Two completely different models. The purpose of a muni is to provide affordable golf to the masses, and $175/round ain't that.
BTW, I haven't knocked the course itself at all. From what I've seen, it looks like a great place. But I am certainly questioning their business model.
Greg,
The masses are paying $49 green fees right now. For the quality of golf there that is pretty affordable.
Off hand I know of only one other municipality that has regular munis and a premium muni. That would be Bismarck ND, where the regular munis are getting an $18 green fee, and Hawktree is getting $70. Don't know exactly what the green fee goes to for the summer at Chambers Bay, because the information is not on their website. They do give $75 for April and May.
If you go to Chambers Bay, you did not put up any of the money to build the place, you are not obligated to carry any of the debt through your water and sewage district, so your playing there is very much analogous to your playing at Bandon. The quality of the golf is comparable, so where's you reluctance for paying $175 coming from?
Garland,
The masses aren't playing golf right now due to the weather....And that $49 dollars is only for Pierce County Residents and only Monday to Thursday. If I were to play as a Seattle resident right now its around $81 bucks after taxes on a weekend. Too high IMO. And in February it goes to $107. Seems like a lot to me.
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.
Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.
-
Garland,
You're comparing apples to oranges with the Bandon v CB. Two completely different models. The purpose of a muni is to provide affordable golf to the masses, and $175/round ain't that.
BTW, I haven't knocked the course itself at all. From what I've seen, it looks like a great place. But I am certainly questioning their business model.
Greg,
The masses are paying $49 green fees right now. For the quality of golf there that is pretty affordable.
Off hand I know of only one other municipality that has regular munis and a premium muni. That would be Bismarck ND, where the regular munis are getting an $18 green fee, and Hawktree is getting $70. Don't know exactly what the green fee goes to for the summer at Chambers Bay, because the information is not on their website. They do give $75 for April and May.
If you go to Chambers Bay, you did not put up any of the money to build the place, you are not obligated to carry any of the debt through your water and sewage district, so your playing there is very much analogous to your playing at Bandon. The quality of the golf is comparable, so where's you reluctance for paying $175 coming from?
Garland,
The masses aren't playing golf right now due to the weather....And that $49 dollars is only for Pierce County Residents and only Monday to Thursday. If I were to play as a Seattle resident right now its around $81 bucks after taxes on a weekend. Too high IMO. And in February it goes to $107. Seems like a lot to me.
Sean,
I put up the $49, because today is Tuesday. I didn't check whether they are closed on account of the weather. I played each of the last three days at my club here in WA, so the weather is of little concern to me. You clearly know you are paying a higher rate, because you are not paying the taxes and fees that support CB. Just like you pay $250 at Bandon, because you did not pay to develop it either.
The problem I am getting at is that some people have a closed mind about what a muni is, and what you should pay to play one. Clearly the open minded people of North Dakota have figured out that you can pay between 3 and 4 times as much to play a muni if the quality is there to justify it. Likewise the open minded people that play at Bethpage.
-
Garland,
I am just saying that most people in general are not playing golf around here because it has been under 30 degrees for 2 weeks. And those that aren't enough to fill the tee sheet at 80 bucks a pop. Or 55 bucks a pop in Pierce county on Tuesday. The million dollars that they need to clear to pay off the bond is the issue. Just can't see how that is possible in this environment.
Have you been to Bandon yet? If not why not? (maybe you have but for some reason I thought you hadn't)
-
Sean,
I haven't been. The knees have been giving me problems, so when opportunities presented themselves, I had to pass. I now take Glucosamine religiously and the knees have co-operated very well this winter. I almost went last weekend, but the wife nixed it.
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.
Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.
Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.
Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.
Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.
I'm not sure you can be taken seriously on this website by making claims that fescue is the grass of choice on Kiawah island.
-
The management company, Kemper, operates under a management contract, which means they are paid a monthly fee to oversee the course level staff. Those fees are generally relatively small and are competitively bid and there are a lot of companies that bid for that type of work. I highly doubt they are being "unduly enhanced". In any event they are probably directly responsible for bringing in the big tournaments, meaning they are paying for themselves.
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.
Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.
Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.
I'm not sure you can be taken seriously on this website by making claims that fescue is the grass of choice on Kiawah island.
Garland,
What?
I realize you are approaching 10,000 posts here, but have you really never visited Bandon Dunes????
And power carts do suck by the way. ;)
Thanks.
William Grieve
-
The management company, Kemper, operates under a management contract, which means they are paid a monthly fee to oversee the course level staff. Those fees are generally relatively small and are competitively bid and there are a lot of companies that bid for that type of work. I highly doubt they are being "unduly enhanced". In any event they are probably directly responsible for bringing in the big tournaments, meaning they are paying for themselves.
Sorry, not buying. They get paid a fee, make $$$ on the back end of almost every purchase and have no equity position thus no risk. They get paid whether the job is done well or not. And I'm amazed beyond belief that more courses are going to the big management companies. It can be done so much better but for some crazy reason owners think they are avoiding risk when all they are really doing is dividing up the pie even more under some guise of volume buying and still retaining most of the downside.
Golf really needs to wise up.
-
The management company, Kemper, operates under a management contract, which means they are paid a monthly fee to oversee the course level staff. Those fees are generally relatively small and are competitively bid and there are a lot of companies that bid for that type of work. I highly doubt they are being "unduly enhanced". In any event they are probably directly responsible for bringing in the big tournaments, meaning they are paying for themselves.
Sorry, not buying. They get paid a fee, make $$$ on the back end of almost every purchase and have no equity position thus no risk. They get paid whether the job is done well or not. And I'm amazed beyond belief that more courses are going to the big management companies. It can be done so much better but for some crazy reason owners think they are avoiding risk when all they are really doing is dividing up the pie even more under some guise of volume buying and still retaining most of the downside.
Golf really needs to wise up.
Management companies provide a fee for service, which is to oversee the course level staff. They never pretend to take any risk and the reason that they are hired is because the owner can't or doesn't want to oversee the operations of a golf course. There are a lot of facilities where the value of a management company can certainly be questioned, but for course like this, I'd absolutely want someone other than an Assistant Parks Director making decisions on how to run a world class golf course.
-
Tim L.- The doctor is correct. The turf at bandon is all fescue. At CB it's mostly fescue. At Kiawah, the surface is nowhere near the same. But besides that, carts are not used without a medical reason at Kiawah. Or, at least they weren't 34 days ago.
Fescue can handle limited cart traffic. But, it is much more sensitive than other grasses. And if it gets too hot, fuhghetaboutit!
It is an interesting balance about Management companies. It is likely true that without them CB wouldn't have been selected so early for national championships. There's likely a valuable lesson learnt from this case, and hopefully it will be another, or good enough, reason why courses that should be considered for championships, should be well seasoned, no matter how good their terrain is, pre-construction.
-
So management companies are a reason courses are selected for major championships? Really? Since when? Was Bethpage or Torrey managed by a large management company?
As far as the parks director calling the shots, I agree that professionals in golf course management should be making the decisions but I also don't think a green fee at a muni in WA should be paying the light bill in MD, FL or any other state.
What would I do in place of a management company? No one asked but I'll offer an idea nonetheless.
One thing I'll start with is I believe in sustainability and that includes economic sustainability for the local folks who pay the freight for a project like this, so keeping it local is important, to me at least.
I'd form a non profit group to manage the course. The non-profit would lease the course for $1 and put all revenues collected back into the course, be it for debt service or course operations until the debt is retired. Once the debt is retiered, all dollars needed to fund operations plus a percentage for capitol improvements would go to the course and only after those obligations were met would dollars start to flow into the general fund of whatever government entity owns the course.
The non profit would have some sort of charter that dictated there would be three Board of Director positions. One position would be held by a retired superintendent who worked in the region. Another would be held by a retired PGA Professional who also worked in the region. The third position would be held by a person the two of them select. The particulars of the length of term and filling vacancies could be hashed out by the first BOD but there would always be one retired Super, one retired PGA, and another industry professional on the BOD.
The BOD would be responsible for selecting the key management positions and for establishing a direction with goals and objectives, and for establishing a process to measure progress. The BOD would not be compensated but expenses would be paid. I believe you could find very capable people who would be willing to do this as long as it was clear who was in charge and the government stayed out of the way.
Every region in the country has experienced golf industry professionals who believe in giving back to the game and I think you could make something like this work as opposed to the deputy parks director calling the shots.
-
Here are the budget costs for Chambers Bay via Pierce County's published budget reports:
2004: $607,520
2005: $4,517,230
2006: $14,378,220
2007: $7,456,640
Didn't Chambers Bay open in June 2007? That kind of suggests those budget costs for 2004 through 2006, plus part of 2007, are building costs. If so, the $21 million figure looks more solid to me. (.6 + 4.5 + 14.4 = 19.5, plus add some of the 7.45 from 2007 as well.)
Everyone keeps saying Bandon makes it because there are four courses. How conveniently everyone forgets they started with one, and were not suffering for a lack of golfers.
When Bandon only had one course, the greens fee was about half what it costs at CB. The replay rate was about a quarter.
Golfweek top modern has Chambers Bay ranked higher than Bandon Trails. So if you are willing to pay $250 to play Bandon Trails, you should be delighted to pay $175 to play Chambers Bay.
Here are the fees Bandon quotes for 2011, copied from their website today:
Jan Feb Mar Apr May - Oct Nov 1 - 19 Nov 20 - Dec
Resort Guest $75 $90 $120 $165 $225 $130 $75
Oregonian $75 $90 $120 $165 n/a $130 $75
Golf-only Guest $100 $120 $160 $220 $275 $175 $100
Replay* $40 $45 $60 $85 $110 $65 $40
While you can play for $250, even slightly more, you can also play for a whole lot less than $250. For several months a year you can play for under $100, first time out. Replay is as little as $40.
So at Bandon you get more courses... that on average are higher rated, including one perennial top 10 in the U.S.... whose conditioning has been far better... that can cost a lot less. btw, does anyone know how many rounds are played at Bandon each year?
CB has to bring its costs down. In any case, and even more so if I am right that the number of rounds played will not go up, and probably will take another hit this year. If each Bandon course had to cover $6.8 million in costs each year, I bet that place would be in the red as well.
-
...Here are the fees Bandon quotes for 2011, copied from their website today:
Jan Feb Mar Apr May - Oct Nov 1 - 19 Nov 20 - Dec
Resort Guest $75 $90 $120 $165 $225 $130 $75
Oregonian $75 $90 $120 $165 n/a $130 $75
Golf-only Guest $100 $120 $160 $220 $275 $175 $100
Replay* $40 $45 $60 $85 $110 $65 $40
While you can play for $250, even slightly more, you can also play for a whole lot less than $250. For several months a year you can play for under $100, first time out. Replay is as little as $40.
So at Bandon you get more courses... that on average are higher rated, including one perennial top 10 in the U.S.... whose conditioning has been far better... that can cost a lot less. btw, does anyone know how many rounds are played at Bandon each year?
...
So what's your point Jim? That Bandon costs more than Chambers Bay all seasons all rates? We already knew that. We also know that Bandon has four courses, and that is a pretty good reason to take a golf vacation there. Therefore, it draws from the whole country, including the Seattle area. However, the quality of the golf including the conditioning at Chambers Bay is good enough to justify the green fee IMO when compared to Bandon for example.
Let's take another popular example on this website. Rustic Canyon. Rustic is famous for its reasonable green fee. Unfortunately, IMO it falls well short of Chambers Bay in my evaluation of the golf there. Rustic is fun, it is wide, it has interesting green complexes. But, it is not that memorable for me. Whereas Chambers Bay has all the fun, width, and green complexes plus 17 memorable holes with the single weakness of the 8th hole for me. Rustic Canyon has nothing approaching the likes of 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16 for me to name a few.
-
No carts, no cash!
Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.
But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.
Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.
Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.
I'm not sure you can be taken seriously on this website by making claims that fescue is the grass of choice on Kiawah island.
Garland,
What?
I realize you are approaching 10,000 posts here, but have you really never visited Bandon Dunes????
And power carts do suck by the way. ;)
Thanks.
William Grieve
Hey, I'm a boring engineer from State. What do you expect?
-
...Here are the fees Bandon quotes for 2011, copied from their website today:
Jan Feb Mar Apr May - Oct Nov 1 - 19 Nov 20 - Dec
Resort Guest $75 $90 $120 $165 $225 $130 $75
Oregonian $75 $90 $120 $165 n/a $130 $75
Golf-only Guest $100 $120 $160 $220 $275 $175 $100
Replay* $40 $45 $60 $85 $110 $65 $40
While you can play for $250, even slightly more, you can also play for a whole lot less than $250. For several months a year you can play for under $100, first time out. Replay is as little as $40.
So at Bandon you get more courses... that on average are higher rated, including one perennial top 10 in the U.S.... whose conditioning has been far better... that can cost a lot less. btw, does anyone know how many rounds are played at Bandon each year?
...
So what's your point Jim? That Bandon costs more than Chambers Bay all seasons all rates? We already knew that. We also know that Bandon has four courses, and that is a pretty good reason to take a golf vacation there. Therefore, it draws from the whole country, including the Seattle area. However, the quality of the golf including the conditioning at Chambers Bay is good enough to justify the green fee IMO when compared to Bandon for example.
Let's take another popular example on this website. Rustic Canyon. Rustic is famous for its reasonable green fee. Unfortunately, IMO it falls well short of Chambers Bay in my evaluation of the golf there. Rustic is fun, it is wide, it has interesting green complexes. But, it is not that memorable for me. Whereas Chambers Bay has all the fun, width, and green complexes plus 17 memorable holes with the single weakness of the 8th hole for me. Rustic Canyon has nothing approaching the likes of 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16 for me to name a few.
Doc
What you are forgetting is that Rustic has a top whack charge of $60 or $70 AND it is quite walkable. I sure would be more enticed to tee it up there rather than CB for its top whack and from the coverage I saw on tv that course looks to be a harsh walk.
Why was the county held on the hook for the mining cleanup? Is it possible the mining company paid money for a cleanup at an earlier date, but left it to the county to do the job? Or perhaps the county bought the land at a cheap rate knowing the cleanup had to be done? It just seems an odd setup to me.
Ciao
-
Don
What you describe has been put into place in Baltimore and Montgomery County MD. In both cases a "Not for profit" arm of the Government was formed to run a portfolio of golf courses. In both cases the overhead costs have escalated to a point where they are out of control. A typical management fee ranges from 3% to 5% of gross revenue. In the case of the Montgomery COunty Revenue Authority the total overhead from the supposed NFP was in excess of $1.2 million on revenues of $16 million. Had my firm had a chance to bid on the business we would have proposed fees in the $500K to $750K range including incentives. This would mean an additional $450K to $700K to put back into the courses or the County.
Baltimore City is in a similar predicament with similar overhead costs on half as many courses. Neither of these managment deals were ever put out to bid. The bottom line is Government has no place in golf operations. They can certainly provide capital to build and own but that should only be permitted under the guidance of experienced professionals.
-
Rob,
Really? They had a three man BOD made up of retired industry experts? Or, was it a BOD made up of golfers and others from the area that thought they knew how to run a golf course?
Most of the time these non-profit oversight entities are formed by the city golf management administrative employees so they can keep their jobs, sort of like the fox guarding the hen house. That is not what I'm saying here. I'm suggesting no director of this or that having anything to do with golf. I'm suggesting a three person BOD made up long time industry veterans who select the pro, super and other management positions if need be, then establishes a method of evaluation and measuring quality.
I've never seen it done that way. Have you?
-
Didn't Phoenix try a not for profit to run Papago which was a total disaster.
I think a good comparison is Pasatiempo for a high end course and their rate is $220. But I do believe they offer memberships to bring it down quite a bit.
The rates at Bandon in other than high season are reasonable but you are taking a big chance on weather and it takes quite a bit of time and effort to get there. You could go in December and what happens if it is 40 degrees and raining - you still pay for the lodging and the golf isn't a whole lot of fun.
-
No Jerry, PHX used a golf association, the AGA, that promised the world and delivered a whole lot less. BTW, I predicted the negative outcome when it was announced that the AGA would be running the show.
Look, running a golf course isn't that difficult if you just keep it simple and don't overload at the top, which is what governments and associations do all the time. When you have all these administrative types involved they all have to justify their existence and they usually do it by spending money on really stupid stuff. Running a golf course well is about 5% management and 95% getting it done. Its not a stinking think tank.
By having a small board made up of industry veterans with a proven history of providing a quality golf experience you have all the expertise you need and you can keep all the dollars local which is where they belong.
-
The word is that one of the two winners of last night's $355mm Mega Millions drawing is from Washington. I wonder if Richard will follow through on his pledge to support Chambers Bay ;D
-
Doc
What you are forgetting is that Rustic has a top whack charge of $60 or $70 AND it is quite walkable. I sure would be more enticed to tee it up there rather than CB for its top whack and from the coverage I saw on tv that course looks to be a harsh walk.
Why was the county held on the hook for the mining cleanup? Is it possible the mining company paid money for a cleanup at an earlier date, but left it to the county to do the job? Or perhaps the county bought the land at a cheap rate knowing the cleanup had to be done? It just seems an odd setup to me.
Ciao
Sean,
Have you walked either of these courses? I see very little difference in the walks. Chambers Bay has no walk like the climb to the 16th tee at Rustic. Personally, I am not particularly conscious of the walks tee to green as I am engaged in the game. It is the walks green to tee that stand out for me, and Chambers wins for me on that account.
I don't know the history of the mining cleanup responsibilities. I looked on Wikipedia and found that the county bought the 930 acres of land in 1992 for 33 million. Don't dwell on the "cleanup". There was really no environmental mitigation to do that I know of. Cleanup means turning the land into something that could grow grass for a golf course. Perhaps a more appropriate thing to think of is the cost overruns that RGD encountered when they discovered they had a huge expense to remove rock from Rock Creek Cattle Company.
-
Dr. Garland, It's not so much their arduousness as it is their necessity. Why would you design a walking only course and have those long walks, in a setting that is nothing special? As I recall the walk to #3 has one's back to the water view.
-
Dr. Garland, It's not so much their arduousness as it is their necessity. Why would you design a walking only course and have those long walks, in a setting that is nothing special? As I recall the walk to #3 has one's back to the water view.
I believe you mean the walk to #4. It is the worst walk at Chambers Bay, but it is hardly the problem the walk to the 16th tee at Rustic is.
Chambers does provide a cart shuttle for that walk. Last time there I declined the shuttle and arrived less than 30 seconds later than the shuttle riders.
The other two walks of about the same length are done downhill facing the view over Puget Sound. You can't call that "a setting that is nothing special." Other than those three, the walks are not untypical of a modern course.
-
Adam, my understanding is that Bandon has bent mixed in with fescue. CB is almost all fescue, especially the greens, which is very rare in US. And the same walk for #3 serves as the walk between #14 and #15, and you get to face the water at that time.
-
Adam, my understanding is that Bandon has bent mixed in with fescue. CB is almost all fescue, especially the greens, which is very rare in US.
That's not really true. Most courses are a blend of grasses...including Bandon...including CB....including Ballyneal.
This document states as much RE: CB....
http://www2.cybergolf.com/kemper/images/232/Turfgrass.pdf
About 6% Colonial Bent in the CB mix.
Conversely, I pulled this from a thread about Old Mac. Seems Bandon has eliminated the bent.
Tom Jefferson writes:
"The current seed mixture for Old Macdonald (and all the other turf areas here) is as follows: Bridgeport II Chewings fescue, 35%; Barswing Chewings fescue, 25%; Barcrown Creeping Red fescue, 20%; (and seed coating 20%). That mixture has changed slightly (I believe) since the first season's seeding, but I couldn't say exactly how.
The seed mixtures have evolved since the initial seeding of Bandon Dunes, then Pac, Trails, and now Old Mac, chiefly by the reduction in % by weight of the colonial bent component, culminating in the absence of bent in the current mix.
If I sound like I know what I am talking about, it is only because Eric Johnson and I just went out and got a current seed tag from the seed room!"
-
Dr. Garland, It's not so much their arduousness as it is their necessity. Why would you design a walking only course and have those long walks, in a setting that is nothing special? As I recall the walk to #3 has one's back to the water view.
same issue as at Erin Hills
-
Dr. Garland, It's not so much their arduousness as it is their necessity. Why would you design a walking only course and have those long walks, in a setting that is nothing special? As I recall the walk to #3 has one's back to the water view.
same issue as at Erin Hills
Why don't you two talk to C&C and ask them about Bandon Trails? After all, we are only speaking about one walk at Chambers Bay, so it is analogous.
Or send a PM to Jay Blasi on this site.
I suspect the answer would be that they found the best holes they could in the terrain. It was unfortunate that left a slightly ungainly walk, but that is what the terrain left them with. Chambers Bay at least has an excuse that it was not a natural terrain to begin with like Bandon Trails was.
-
Adam, my understanding is that Bandon has bent mixed in with fescue. CB is almost all fescue, especially the greens, which is very rare in US.
That's not really an accurate statement. Just about every course is going to have a blend of grasses...including Bandon...including CB....including Ballyneal.
This document states as much....
http://www2.cybergolf.com/kemper/images/232/Turfgrass.pdf
So, about 6% Colonial Bent in the CB mix.
Conversely, I pulled this from a thread about Old Mac. Tom Jefferson writes:
"The current seed mixture for Old Macdonald (and all the other turf areas here) is as follows: Bridgeport II Chewings fescue, 35%; Barswing Chewings fescue, 25%; Barcrown Creeping Red fescue, 20%; (and seed coating 20%). That mixture has changed slightly (I believe) since the first season's seeding, but I couldn' t say exactly how.
The seed mixtures have evolved since the initial seeding of Bandon Dunes, then Pac, Trails, and now Old Mac, chiefly by the reduction in % by weight of the colonial bent component, culminating in the absence of bent in the current mix.
If I sound like I know what I am talking about, it is only because Eric Johnson and I just went out and got a current seed tag from the seed room! Of course Eric (or Ken Nice) COULD have chimed in and helped you out of your little predicament! It was left to me to be the messenger here!"
Thanks for the link and the info.
-
My goodness there are a lot of experts on this site concerning golf management.
Don M. You are right about how cities should run a golf course, but you are talking about leases. Management companies as a rule probably take out too much from leases without putting back as they should or as the citizens think they should. Don, you shouldn't use Torrey Pines as an example of a good operation by a city. Most golfers in San Diego will tell you horrific stories about waste and neglect. We should watch what San Antonio is doing and how it works. It could be the model to which you are subscribing.
Chambers Bay is a management agreement. Kemper Sports is paid a fee to management the facility which means they have to provide employees, benefits, insurance, accounting and expertise in all areas. They are reimbursed for these costs plus their fee. At Chambers Bay, the NOI is positive. If public employee unions and their benefits were involved the cash flow may not be positive. It is only after you apply the debt there is a negative cash flow. The decision to build Chambers Bay was made by the County and most of the negatives in costs should probably not be attributed to the management of the course. Maybe some of that blame could go to the designer, but I am not expert on that. Most cities are moving toward a preference for management deals instead of leases and with today's golf economy that suits management companies just fine.
After the 2015 Open, this discussion needs to be held again. Pierce County should receive millions in increased tax revenues and play will probably increase with the exposure from TV.
Garland, comparing Rustic Canyon and Chambers Bay is apples and oranges. One was built to shine, the other to provide daily play for daily fee players. Perhaps your budget can allow you to play twice weekly at Chambers Bay, but most people cannot, but could at Rustic Canyon. They both have their purpose. As my son was involved, I don't want to get into a debate, but I think the strategy is at Rustic Canyon is terrific, I think that Chambers Bay is pretty and has great views, but the strategy of driving to one side of the fairway because of the hole placement or missing short or long is frequently prevalent at Rustic. I have played Chambers only once and cannot fairly judge strategy.
Some on this site think Chambers is a bit overrated, good par 4's but the par 3's and par 5's aren't all that great except for the views. I would need to play it a couple of more times before commenting on that.
-
Adam, my understanding is that Bandon has bent mixed in with fescue. CB is almost all fescue, especially the greens, which is very rare in US. And the same walk for #3 serves as the walk between #14 and #15, and you get to face the water at that time.
Richard, I was told the same disinformation from the shuttle driver at CB. He was wrong! Not until I spoke with Ken Nice was the truth revealed. As I recall, they no longer blend the fescues at Bandon, after the first course was built. They may not have blended the first course, but I'm qualifying it, due to faulty memory.
-
Don M. You are right about how cities should run a golf course, but you are talking about leases. Management companies as a rule probably take out too much from leases without putting back as they should or as the citizens think they should. Don, you shouldn't use Torrey Pines as an example of a good operation by a city. Most golfers in San Diego will tell you horrific stories about waste and neglect. We should watch what San Antonio is doing and how it works. It could be the model to which you are subscribing.
Lynn,
Actually I never commented on how Torrey was managed good or bad. My comment was in response to a post that stated CB got the US Open because of a management company and I was using the opens at Bethpage and Torrey as examples of publicly owned courses that have hosted the Open and are not managed by a private company.
I will be watching San Antonio to see how it works.
I think leases are better for the cities because at least the lease holder has an interest in net profits/loss. I guarantee you the management company ranks would thin if they were a little more on the hook for what they manage.
-
Don M. You are right about how cities should run a golf course, but you are talking about leases. Management companies as a rule probably take out too much from leases without putting back as they should or as the citizens think they should. Don, you shouldn't use Torrey Pines as an example of a good operation by a city. Most golfers in San Diego will tell you horrific stories about waste and neglect. We should watch what San Antonio is doing and how it works. It could be the model to which you are subscribing.
Lynn,
Actually I never commented on how Torrey was managed good or bad. My comment was in response to a post that stated CB got the US Open because of a management company and I was using the opens at Bethpage and Torrey as examples of publicly owned courses that have hosted the Open and are not managed by a private company.
I will be watching San Antonio to see how it works.
I think leases are better for the cities because at least the lease holder has an interest in net profits/loss. I guarantee you the management company ranks would thin if they were a little more on the hook for what they manage.
Don,
Lynn and I have spent more time than you can imagine discussing the benefits of municipal golf leases. Unfortunately right now, there isn't a golf pro or a management company who would take the risk and sign a lease right now. Most of the existing ones are losing money, and 2010 didn't show anyone that the industry was at the bottom. So that leaves management contracts, which is halfway there. You get the experience of the guys in the company but without the financial commitment. That said, most management contracts are year to year, so if the owner isn't getting 100% of what he deserves, then they can always be replaced.
A management company isn't far off from the structure you outlined, because if you take a super and a pro, then you have a management company. The only difference is your guys show up once a quarter for free and a management company gets paid to think about it every day.
Kelly,
Good find. Hurdzan's comment was only slightly off. :o
-
The super and the pro in my example are on the BOD and they make sure quality people are ON SITE thinking about it everyday.
We can go round and round, so I'll drop it other than to say I do believe there is a better way that serves the municipalities better (citizens) and could still be structured so a for profit entity could be involved. Sort of a hybrid lease/management deal if you would. I just think if a group is telling you what to do, how to do it, what to buy, and how much to pay for it, they should be a little more involved in the outcomes of their decisions then just drawing a check every month.
-
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/02/17/2030945/chambers-bay-lost-about-850000.html?storylink=rss
Oh boy, here we go again. :'(
Will the hotel, bigger clubhouse, and other stuff for the us open be built?
Anybody still think it is possible for it to lose the us open?
-
The numbers being mentioned in this article are astounding! $21 million to build it. $2.5 million annually to maintain the course. A staggering $15k and change profit from the highly successful U.S. Amateur :o! Crushing debt service figures every year. Even if it was a "moonscape" prior...this never should have been built given the disastrous financials involved. If Chambers Bay was killing it...and they're not, it would take gobs more revenue to satisfy the debt load.
That sewer department subsidy is course welfare. You really have to hand it to those folks though, their creativity and justification for funding a quasi-attractive money pit is remarkable.
I WILL give them credit for at least establishing a caddie program there, which is a rare effort in the municipal arena, though the trending in golf passes and the like will certainly impact caddie rounds there. The key to improving the bottom line for Chambers Bay is blending increased destination play with local rounds...that is a tricky proposition few have mastered. It will ALWAYS lose money, the question is just how much?
To me this is just another example of the game losing its way. How can you reward a blunder like this with our most highly-respected championships? What message does this send to the non-golfing folks in our society?
Cheers,
Kris 8)
-
I'd like to see the pro forma that has them losing 850k in 2011, projected losing 840k in 2012, then suddenly breakeven in 2014.
-
Big box government projects worth can not be measured on such simple terms. The only thing worse than seeing the dollar payback for the St. Louis Arch would be seeing the cityscape without it.
-
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/01/02/1485733/chambers-bay-still-in-red-figures.html
The unreported rumor is that Richard Choi has pledged to cover the operating losses until 2015.
Is this an indication that the USGA picked the wrong site ?
-
I am always skeptical of municipal profit/loss statements. I would love to dig down these numbers and see what they are expensing through the golf course. It is often easier for politicians to find patronage in these types of projects than adding people to unionized departments.
-
Build it all. They'll make $30 million plus, won't they? I'm sure the USGA will subsidize them until they get on their feet, won't it?
-
I'd like to see the pro forma that has them losing 850k in 2011, projected losing 840k in 2012, then suddenly breakeven in 2014.
I would like to see the ProForma for them not developing it as a golf course but rather, as a passive park. This would bring some comparitive sanity to an one-sided argument.
I would also like to see how they mainage to spend $2,500,000 on annual maintenance. Does anyone else see this as a high number?
-
A few thoughts after reading the article:
- If a private investor/owner took the chance to build this facility and ran out of money, the project would be dead. A government entity does it, they take money from one place to sustain the other. Does this logic work for anyone? This is yet another example why government should not be involved in golf.
- Poor economic policy and business decisions give golf another unneeded black eye.
- After the "windfall" year of the US Open, is this really a self sustaining project? $2.5M in course maintenance each year?? What about the operating expenses for all other departments?? Would this be a good example of what the Olympic Committee is trying NOT to have happen in Rio??
Ken
-
I was just about to comment on the maintenance expense, Tim. Yes, $2.5 million is extremely high. I can't even imagine how they get to that number, unless all of the work being done to the course is falling under maintenance expenses.
-
I wouldn't call how CB operates a financial struggle.
Anyone with half a brain and some honesty knew there was no way it would ever make money without some creative accounting. 20+ million to build and 2.5M to maintain isn't going to get you in the black, ever. You simply do not spend that kind of money for development and expect a return on greens fees. Wasn't going to happen. The course will stay open and the tax payers in the area will continue to pay the bills.
Struggling financially is a family that will lose its house when they can't make their mortgage payment.
Struggling financially is when a small business can't make payroll.
Government entities like CB don't struggle, they issues press releases proclaiming some sort of successes that aren't backed up by a shred of real evidence.
Chambers Bay Golf Course was never about the course itself making money. I think John's tie in to the St Louis arch is as on the money.
-
...I think John's tie in to the St Louis arch is as on the money.
Call me crazy, but I'd guess by my one visit that the arch actually makes money.
Ken F, welcome to the new new economy... Red is the new black. For some.
-
- If a private investor/owner took the chance to build this facility and ran out of money, the project would be dead. A government entity does it, they take money from one place to sustain the other. Does this logic work for anyone?
Ken,
Why do you think almost half your income goes to government? :-\
-
"The current seed mixture for Old Macdonald (and all the other turf areas here) is as follows: Bridgeport II Chewings fescue, 35%; Barswing Chewings fescue, 25%; Barcrown Creeping Red fescue, 20%; (and seed coating 20%). That mixture has changed slightly (I believe) since the first season's seeding, but I couldn't say exactly how.
I have never heard of the seed coating being part of the mixture. (It is not)
It is part of the pricing, but not part of the mixture.[/b]
-
As Don said it was never going to make money with that price tag up front. I too wonder how on earth they could spend 2.5 million a year on maintenance. That certainly makes it hard to even break even on cash out each year and forget paying off the bonds. There was another issue here. that site was going to cost the County a large sum of money to deal with. champbers is doing just fine. The money is not ever going to look good.
-
I'm not convinced the $2.5M per year maintenance number is right. Maybe total operation costs are $2.5M. I was told several years ago maintenance was under a million, which was lean, given that the superintendent was using some of the money to establish the long fescues in the out-of-play areas.
The playing conditions certainly don't seem like $2.5M per year, do they? There are some courses that spend that sort of dough; at least there were some that did a few years ago. A couple in the Palm Springs area for instance.
-
I know of a few private 18 hole clubs that have a 2.5+ maintenance budget but I've never heard of a public/resort/muni 18 hole course with a 2.5 mil maintenance budget. At least not one that has cool season turf grasses!
They have to be figuring in the annual changes that have been made to the golf course.
-
I always advise my clients to follow the $10.00 rule, which is unofficially an accepted basis for determining green fees.
The general outline of the rule is that if you have debt of 70% of the cost of your course at an interest rate of 6%
that you need to charge $10.00 for each million dollars of cost.
In other words, if your course cost $10 million, your green fee should be $100.00 and my experience is that after all taxes and other operating expenses are paid, including interest, you should have a respectable return on investment. (ROI) (Profit)
If the demographics of your location do not support a green fee such as this, and you do not have the 30% for an equity position, my advice is to my clients, is to not proceed.
To use the cost of Chambers Bay, $210,000,000 at $10.00 per Million, the green fee should be $2100.00
I can't think of an area in the world that can support that business plan.
-
I always advise my clients to follow the $10.00 rule, which is unofficially an accepted basis for determining green fees.
The general outline of the rule is that if you have debt of 70% of the cost of your course at an interest rate of 6%
that you need to charge $10.00 for each million dollars of cost.
In other words, if your course cost $10 million, your green fee should be $100.00 and my experience is that after all taxes and other operating expenses are paid, including interest, you should have a respectable return on investment. (ROI) (Profit)
If the demographics of your location do not support a green fee such as this, and you do not have the 30% for an equity position, my advice is to my clients, is to not proceed.
To use the cost of Chambers Bay, $210,000,000 at $10.00 per Million, the green fee should be $2100.00
I can't think of an area in the world that can support that business plan.
One too many zeros there.
-
Right you are, Tom.
Formula still works.
Green fee $210.00
I will be your guest.
-
Right you are, Tom.
Formula still works.
Green fee $210.00
I will be your guest.
And the green fees during the summer are $210. Nice formula! ;D
-
Oh well....................................
-
Oh well....................................
It's a sticker price of $210. What's the real average price after discounts, comps, promotions, twilight, etc? And what is the utilization?
Are these revenue bonds or general obligation bonds? That makes a big difference for the future.
-
$21 million is an awful lot to spend building a golf course. It probably includes the buildings and infrastructure, but the pro shop is still a temporary structure.
Nice course when it's in good shape. A couple of awkward walks, and each nine begins along the same west - north - east path. I like the front nine a little better, especially the 5-6-7 stretch. 12 is a cool driveable par four.
-
...
Garland, comparing Rustic Canyon and Chambers Bay is apples and oranges. One was built to shine, the other to provide daily play for daily fee players. Perhaps your budget can allow you to play twice weekly at Chambers Bay, but most people cannot, but could at Rustic Canyon. ...
Unfortunately, last year at least, you were wrong about this. With their season pass last year, it may have been possible to golf twice weekly at Chambers Bay for less than twice weekly at Rustic Canyon. If you golf more than that it was all gravy.
I'm Rustic Canyon player kind of budget guy.
-
I always advise my clients to follow the $10.00 rule, which is unofficially an accepted basis for determining green fees.
Isn't the number of rounds played pretty important too?
-
I always advise my clients to follow the $10.00 rule, which is unofficially an accepted basis for determining green fees.
Isn't the number of rounds played pretty important too?
No, not if you divide the cost of running the place and retrospectively charge all the GF players ;D
-
The problem with all of those boilerplate formulas that everyone used for the past 20 years is that none of the pro formas understood one other golf course operations boilerplate formula:
The average green fee received during the year will usually equate to about 2/3 of the "rack rate" high-season green fee, after discounting for off-season rounds, weekdays, seasonal memberships, etc.
That math fits well with the numbers published for Chambers Bay ... they are operating the place for $2.5 million and their shortfall is $800,000. Q.E.D. :D So, if you go back to the pro formas, they needed a rack rate of $300 green fees to make the numbers work after discounting. If they'd understood that, they would have seen what they were up against. But, they convinced themselves that people WOULD pay $210, and therefore that the pro forma was accurate.
If they can't increase the prices by 50%, what are the other possible solutions? They are talking about increasing play, but according to the simple formula above, they would have to increase play BY 50%, at the current prices, in order to get to break-even. Actually, come to think of it, the original RFP for the project was to build 27 holes ... I doubt they could have built as good a course if they'd tried to build 27, or charged as much -- and of course, the maintenance budget would also be higher then -- but if they could have, then the numbers would have worked. They decided to go for the U.S. Open instead.
The subsidy from the sewer district would also be a bone of contention. Under the circumstances, it would have been entirely fair to write off some of the $21 million construction cost toward what the sewer district would have had to pay to remediate the property and make it useful to the public. If they had done so up front, instead of pretending that the golf course would successfully pay for it all, there would be no controversy now. But now they are fudging the numbers internally, and that will always raise red flags.
Bottom line: no one should spend $21 million building a public golf course. And maybe someone should send this article down to the folks in Rio!
-
Chambers was build in the "Economic Heyday", just like a bunch of neat places that didn't or don't work today. There is a probably a list somewhere of great courses who struggled, or failed, many of which have been discussed here. Many came from the same era 2000-2007. Then, reality set in. Chambers is no different if looking through the rearview mirror.
Fact is, today, the golf course industry is incredibly challenging. It was and always has been a "nickel and dime" business.
-
Chris, your wise words ring true for most businesses, not just golf. I think golf just tends to draw more dreamers, at least when it comes down to the numbers.
-
Some may say that $21 million is too much to build a golf course but when you compare Chambers Bay to The Crossings in Carlsbad, then the officials of Pierce County are way ahead. To remind you, The Crossings cost approximately $55 million to build and players play it once.
Here is a recent story about The Crossings: http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/carlsbad-golf-course-may-set-cost-records/article_c1f457bd-e066-53ba-a6fb-5debb8eef9b0.html
While a clubhouse would get use at Chambers Bay, at least they are working to improve the course with improvements for the US Open.
-
Seems that there's a consensus that golf course development is a bit of a gamble.
For municipal courses, that gamble is being made with public funds. The odds get a little longer when the choice is made to build a championship course, one that will necessitate high green fees and a high volume of play to justify the cost of development.
I would guess the tax-paying public might have preferred a plan with slightly safer odds of breaking even. What else could the county be doing with the $800K its sinking into the course every year?
-
Seems that there's a consensus that golf course development is a bit of a gamble.
For municipal courses, that gamble is being made with public funds. The odds get a little longer when the choice is made to build a championship course, one that will necessitate high green fees and a high volume of play to justify the cost of development.
I would guess the tax-paying public might have preferred a plan with slightly safer odds of breaking even. What else could the county be doing with the $800K its sinking into the course every year?
Sven:
Are you assuming that the course ought to turn a profit?
As John Kavanaugh hinted much earlier in this thread, should we not see this as part of a bigger picture? Hardly anything that government does "breaks even", the question is whether the cost is justified by the public good that the project brings about. This is a much larger question than strictly whether local businesses will profit from the generation of visitor traffic to Tacoma, or from the holding of the U.S. Open. The real question is whether the construction of the golf course has improved the quality of life in the community -- and if it has, what is that worth?
I believe that part of the vision of Chambers Bay was the early success of Bandon Dunes, and the county commissioners' idea that if so many people from NW Washington were happy to drive to Bandon, they would be happier yet to play a similar course close to home. Bandon Dunes, of course, was not publicly developed, and it is ultimately up to Mike Keiser to decide whether the expense was worth it to him ... but I think that even if the course had not been profitable, his answer would be that it was STILL worth doing, because of the joy it has brought to so many people, himself included.
It's sad that we as a community are not entitled to think the same way.
-
Tom, you touched on the key issue, though I take a different view of it. If a public course does not pay its way, the people must subsidize it. Whether or not they want to, they are paying so a small (probably tiny) percentage of people can enjoy themselves. It's not clear to me why others should be forced to pay for your or my pastime.
You said it's sad we as a community are not allowed to think that way. One question there is, who is the "we"? Is it the golfers? The people who live in the city or county? Whoever they are, how do you decide how they think? Have a vote? Does majority win?
If Keiser wants to spend his money for what he thinks is the greater good, more power to him. But if you want to spend other people's money for what you think is the greater good -- without their permission/agreement -- I can't agree.
-
Tom:
I'm suggesting that when public funds are used to build a golf course, taking the gamble on the high-fee model may not be the best use of taxpayers' money.
They probably could have built a very nice golf course on that site for a lot less up front that would have provided a good deal of benefit to the community. Perhaps the benefit wouldn't be as great as what Chambers Bay provides today, but the cost would not have been either.
The comparison to Bandon is apt. From a risk perspective, the financial burden of failure at Bandon would have fallen on Keiser (and his investors/backers). The fact that Chambers operates in the red means money in the county budget that could have been allocated to other uses is being used to keep the project alive.
I think there's a tremendous public value in courses developed and maintained by municipalities. But when the financial risks are high and the plan does not work out, I question the gamble. Living in Illinois and reading the almost daily accounts of mismanaged government spending leads one to be a bit cynical on how politicians decide to allocate tax revenue.
Maybe $800K is a drop in the bucket for the county. Maybe not.
Maybe hosting the open will have a beneficial impact on the community. Maybe not.
What can't be debated is that they built a great golf course. I hope it makes it. But I hope making it isn't at the expense of some real life concerns that won't be addressed.
-
Tom, you touched on the key issue, though I take a different view of it. If a public course does not pay its way, the people must subsidize it. Whether or not they want to, they are paying so a small (probably tiny) percentage of people can enjoy themselves. It's not clear to me why others should be forced to pay for your or my pastime.
You said it's sad we as a community are not allowed to think that way. One question there is, who is the "we"? Is it the golfers? The people who live in the city or county? Whoever they are, how do you decide how they think? Have a vote? Does majority win?
If Keiser wants to spend his money for what he thinks is the greater good, more power to him. But if you want to spend other people's money for what you think is the greater good -- without their permission/agreement -- I can't agree.
Jim:
I'm not advocating that communities start building golf courses en masse ... believe me, I'm much happier with clients like Mike Keiser than I would be trying to deal with committees and governments running things on behalf of a town! And, as you say, the majority of people in a town are never going to support the idea of a public golf course, even if it does add much to the quality of life. Although, if we support softball fields and parks and other things with public funds, I don't really see why golf has to be excluded.
I was just lamenting that people in America can't even think of themselves as a community anymore, or decide what is worthwhile. All anyone thinks about is what's in it for them. It's all about politics and extremes here now.
-
Rachel Maddow says it better than I:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjcNjTRg7wc
This is an interesting history of the Gateway Arch. It was built at a current estimated cost of $90 million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Arch
I have also been a beneficiary of a river walk built at great expense to my community. It charges no fees and serves a large percentage of people living outside the paying tax body. I can see it from my house and drive the length of it everyday. I walk on it one day out of one hundred. It gives me great pride and is worth every penny.
-
Tom Doak's lament is very wise and insightful. I have worked in public policy for over 25 years, in governmental, corporate, and nonprofit capacities.. Politics and government are fundamentally questions about our values, about who we are as people, and how do we want to live together. what's the role and responsibility of individuals, the private sector, civil society, and government? I never engage in political conversations here, but Tom is spot on here....
-
Tom, you touched on the key issue, though I take a different view of it. If a public course does not pay its way, the people must subsidize it. Whether or not they want to, they are paying so a small (probably tiny) percentage of people can enjoy themselves. It's not clear to me why others should be forced to pay for your or my pastime.
...
What this ignores is that hundreds, if not into the thousands, use Chambers Bay on a daily basis. On one pass through the area on the way to Sagebrush with a friend, I drove by to show him Chambers Bay. During the short time we were there I am sure there were at least 200 people using the adjacent areas and walking trail through the course. How many courses have hiking trails through them complete with public restrooms? They got much more than just a golf course when they built Chambers Bay.
-
Having worked with maintenance budgets for a my club in the ATL, I'm still trying to figure out CB's budget is 2.5MM per. In an area with low salaries, utilities, and little need to buy extra water, I don't get it. I would love to hear what I am missing.
I too agree with TD's comments above. A group of us have tried over the last several years to upgrade public courses in ATL, including my beloved North Fulton. I note that public golf is revenue neutral for the city. It has been a sobering experience. The only party that does not seem to be represented at the table is the public golfer.
Bob
-
Getting behind muni courses and getting behind munis which cost 20 million are entirely different issues. Even as a golfer I would be pissed off if my local politicians proposed a scheme like this. It is incomprehensible to me how anybody could attempt to justify this public spend. So far as I am concerned, it is just another bad rap the game suffers because of short sighted fools.
Ciao
-
Getting behind muni courses and getting behind munis which cost 20 million are entirely different issues.
Sean:
Agreed. The cost of many municipal projects just boggles my mind. Remember the muni in the Palm Springs area which was built to host the annual Tour event there [for a year or two]? I think that one cost twice as much as Chambers Bay. Heck, I think the City of San Francisco spent close to $21 million just to RENOVATE Harding Park [and host a tournament for a couple of years]. Hmmm ... I guess there are two things those projects all have in common. But at least people in Tacoma got a good golf course out of the deal.
-
Interesting quote from JK's wikipedia link on the St. Louis arch:
"The project did not provide 5,000 jobs as expected—as of June 1964, workers numbered fewer than 100. The project did, however, incite other riverfront restoration efforts, totaling $150 million. Building projects included a 55,000-seat sports stadium, a 400-unit motel, a 24-story hotel, four parking garages, and an apartment complex.[16] The idea of a Disneyland amusement park that included "synthetic riverboat attractions" was considered but later deserted.[62][63] The developers hoped to use the arch as a commercial catalyst, attracting visitors who would use their services.[16] One estimate found that since the 1960s, the arch has incited almost $503,000,000 worth of construction.[64]"
The arch was certainly a catalyst for the riverfront revival that has taken place in St. Louis, and it could be argued the resulting development has saved the downtown area from turning into a ghost town.
At Chambers, I'm not sure what other uses they could have found for the land in the shape it was in. Much like the Harborside project in Chicago, a golf course was probably one of a few solutions that would work.
That being said, I'm still not sure the scope of the project that came about was justified. Time will tell. I have no idea how much of the $21 million was necessary just to make the land usable, or if the bulk of the costs were the result of the type of course they tried to build.
Garland makes a good point about the public park nature of Chambers. I think that would have existed if they'd built a course without the aspirations of hosting a major, one designed to be sustainable on a smaller budget.
After my earlier posts today I went back and read a good number of the comments from the beginning of this thread. While realizing we were rehashing a lot of the same arguments made last year, I did find one gem that stood out. Someone made the comment that the Chambers project was based on the Bethpage model. Other than the fact that both complexes were intended to be municipal courses, I don't see how the similarities of the end result at Chambers and what exists at Bethpage run that deep.
-
I think they need to spend another $50-100mm to build another course and first class amenities to compete with Bandon... ;D
-
Anybody still think it is possible for it to lose the us open?
The blue blazers in Far Hills can't be confident in CB/Pierce County's finances. It certainly scares most of us.
It's 3+ years until the 2015 US Open. Is the USGA past the point of no return that it keeps the tournament at Chambers Bay?
And to simply speculate: is it beyond reason that the USGA asks Torrey steps in, thereby keeping the tournament on the west coast and at at a muni?
-
The blue blazers in Far Hills can't be confident in CB/Pierce County's finances. It certainly scares most of us.
It's 3+ years until the 2015 US Open. Is the USGA past the point of no return that it keeps the tournament at Chambers Bay?
And to simply speculate: is it beyond reason that the USGA asks Torrey steps in, thereby keeping the tournament on the west coast and at at a muni?
As you mention Howard, it is three years away, and things can happen or turn in that time. However, the financial figures mentioned here are awfully bleak. Regardless, if their financial situation continues on this trajectory, it will be awfully difficult for the USGA to spin the Chambers US Open as a public (municipal) golf triumph...
-
I don't know how you glass half empty people ever make a putt. Check out the Pierce County Parks website: http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/pc/abtus/ourorg/parks/parks.htm We should all be so lucky.
-
BCrosby-
If there's anything you guys down there can do about North Fulton (Chastain) or Bobby Jones, God bless you!
I left ATL in '95 post UGA graduation and have been up north ever since....but wow, if you have even the slightest amount of vision, what could become of those two properties. I can only imagine the municipal garbage...
-
I find myself strangely fascinated by the saga of a municipal golf course on the other side of the world which I have never seen and almost certainly never will, but here are my musings anyway;
Reading between the lines, it would seem that the bulk of the '$21m' figure continually bandied about was for cleaning up a derelict industrial site - money that the county would ultimately have had to spend anyway. Further inroads into the '$21m' have been made by developing the rest of the site into a general recreation area for the benefit of the whole community.
Building what looks like a very nice golf course cost only a portion of the $21m - for the sake of argument let's say $5m. Why then is the income from golfing activities expected to service the entire debt of $21m, and its inevitable failure to do so seen as evidence of the failure of the entire golf course scheme? I smell political shenanigins, maneouvering, and blame-shifting...
It seems clear to me that the big 'mistake' here was in the kind of golf course developed; a muni should surely be intended for the benefit and use of local people, not a "look at the size of my dick" exercise for egotistical local politicians seeking to attract wealthy tourists and the US Open to their godforsaken backwater?
I guess though, that only history will decide whether Chambers Bay is a white elephant. Municipal vanity projects can sometimes turn ino far-sighted visions once 50 years have passed and everyone has forgotton about the money!
-
Tom, you touched on the key issue, though I take a different view of it. If a public course does not pay its way, the people must subsidize it. Whether or not they want to, they are paying so a small (probably tiny) percentage of people can enjoy themselves. It's not clear to me why others should be forced to pay for your or my pastime.
...
What this ignores is that hundreds, if not into the thousands, use Chambers Bay on a daily basis. On one pass through the area on the way to Sagebrush with a friend, I drove by to show him Chambers Bay. During the short time we were there I am sure there were at least 200 people using the adjacent areas and walking trail through the course. How many courses have hiking trails through them complete with public restrooms? They got much more than just a golf course when they built Chambers Bay.
That seems like an expensive way to get some walking trails and public johns.
-
Tom Doak's lament is very wise and insightful. I have worked in public policy for over 25 years, in governmental, corporate, and nonprofit capacities.. Politics and government are fundamentally questions about our values, about who we are as people, and how do we want to live together. what's the role and responsibility of individuals, the private sector, civil society, and government? I never engage in political conversations here, but Tom is spot on here....
Sorry, but you and Tom are wrong if you think the way to build community is by making collective decisions about how to spend other people's money. And there's no one I respect more on here than Tom, so it's tough for me to say that.
I'll leave it at that; I won't be sleeping well tonight and I won't sleep at all if I say more.
-
Update:
The profit of holding a US Open is finally coming to fruition.
"Golf course sees revenue jump 24% on more rounds, merchandise sold"
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/12/08/2937195/chambers-bay-on-track-for-best.html
Also... Some rumors about the US Open:
-Major disruptions range from March-July 2015
-No clubhouse planned (at many tournaments, temporary tents are used. USGA and players experience the problem all the time)
-no cruise ship for additional lodging, etc.
-trains and ferries are not ruled out for transportation
-
Having recently finished Brad Klein's Wide Open Fairways appears his community was able to create a course that while not pleasing everyone, at least they took all measures to try and make it a place for the benefit of all. They never aspired to host an Open or PGA event but to help provide a place for the community to enjoy. The community voted on the issue and while I don't live there they definitely saw the value in it. That seems like a much more sound and sustainable model to me.
-
??? ??? ???
$21,000,000 yikes .....I knew it was expensive but 21m. Was it a brownfield reclamation ???
-
Archie,
It was a mine reclamation. I understand they screened debris out of every bit of the "soil" (mostly pure sand) of the course by digging it up, hauling it to the screener, and then hauling it back.
-
I'm not surprised to see their financials are a lot better. Summer 2012 was able to essentially have the course to myself after 3 pm. Summer 2013 I was not able to even get on the course as a single after 3 pm unless I waited for a time so late you wouldn't finish before dark.
-
I liked this comment under the article:
"After the Open they need to put in carts and paths. The average golfer has a hard enough time walking this course and it takes away from the fun because of exhaustion. I have played it once and could barley walk when I got home and I always walk when I play. I won't pay that much to get beat up again. Too bad, its a great course."
Ulrich
-
...
Garland makes a good point about the public park nature of Chambers. I think that would have existed if they'd built a course without the aspirations of hosting a major, one designed to be sustainable on a smaller budget.
...
I was searching golf course construction costs today, and this was one of the posts that I came across.
I believe that had the architects given Pierce County what they asked for, there would not have been the public park, i.e., the walking trail through the course. Pierce County wanted 36 holes. RTJ II convinced them to take a larger body of land for one major hosting course. That opened up the land for walking path through the course, and additional land left for parkland.
How much the two courses would cost depends on how much reclamation they decided to do for them. If they reclaimed the land as thoroughly as RTJ II had, they probably would have spent over $30 million for the two courses. In a sense, the high cost was not determined by effort to make it major championship capable other than the increased length needed.
It would be interesting to see how they are doing financially now that the Open is history. Anyone have numbers?
-
I liked this comment under the article:
"After the Open they need to put in carts and paths. The average golfer has a hard enough time walking this course and it takes away from the fun because of exhaustion. I have played it once and could barley walk when I got home and I always walk when I play. I won't pay that much to get beat up again. Too bad, its a great course."
Ulrich
Ulrich, you have to take such statements with a grain of salt. All I can say is that one clinically obese golfer, and one morbidly obese golfer held a grudge match on the course that is documented on this website. The morbidly obese golfer made no such complaints, and the clinically obese golfer went out and played a second 18.
-
...
Garland makes a good point about the public park nature of Chambers. I think that would have existed if they'd built a course without the aspirations of hosting a major, one designed to be sustainable on a smaller budget.
...
I was searching golf course construction costs today, and this was one of the posts that I came across.
I believe that had the architects given Pierce County what they asked for, there would not have been the public park, i.e., the walking trail through the course. Pierce County wanted 36 holes. RTJ II convinced them to take a larger body of land for one major hosting course. That opened up the land for walking path through the course, and additional land left for parkland.
How much the two courses would cost depends on how much reclamation they decided to do for them. If they reclaimed the land as thoroughly as RTJ II had, they probably would have spent over $30 million for the two courses. In a sense, the high cost was not determined by effort to make it major championship capable other than the increased length needed.
It would be interesting to see how they are doing financially now that the Open is history. Anyone have numbers?
Actually, IIRC, the RFP for Chambers Bay was to design 27 holes. Which was stupid ... 27-hole facilities are almost barred from consideration as great courses, unless you build a "big" 18-hole course and a totally separate, shorter, nine holes.
-
Here's a recent RFP from the county:
http://thesubtimes.com/2016/02/09/pierce-county-looking-for-resort-style-development-at-chambers-bay/
-
When the website group met with Jay Blasi for the preview round, he told us Pierce County had been asking for 36 holes, and RTJ II convinced them to do one grand 18 hole course on the best part of the property. I guess things change. Ask 27, then 36, then agree to 18.
-
8) The comments from folks after that article don't sound good for the elected officials' longevity...
? why spend good $ after bad, why compete with private business, why not sell CB and get it back on tax rolls.. etc