Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on December 20, 2010, 10:40:31 AM
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2. The greens
3. The green sites
I know this is shaky ground but I am beginning to believe that the similarities between the two courses are not a coincidence. I find the flow of the greens and green sites to be the two finest examples I have ever played with the slight edge going to Riviera because of overall memorability of the experience. Again let me emphasize that I played each set in optimal conditions and kikuyu fits my game having been reared on zoysia fairways.
It is my plan to proceed with a discussion on a hole by hole match play comparison. I would also enjoy input from others utilizing the chess nomenclature popularized by Tom Doak in the CG. (!!! ? and such)
#1. Stange isn't it how both courses start with short par 5's to greens sloping back to front. To me they play the exact same distance given all things equal with elevation and roll out. While both greens appear to be simple at first glance I prefer the first at Riviera because of the mystery of the hidden slope. Any fool can see that the first at Sand Hills is crazy quick if you go past the pin while the effect at Riviera is both extreme and surprising.
I rate the two green complexes as follows:
Riviera !?
Sand Hills !
Riviera up 1.
My apologies as duty calls. We will pick this up later or continue on your own. Hint: I will be rating the fourth greens as follows: !!! vs !?!. Any guesses which I prefer?
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I've played both courses so I'm very interested to watch this play out.
Are you saying Riviera's green site for #1 is better than the corresponding hole at Sand Hills as well? If so, can you explain why?
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An interesting exercise, this. However, I'm puzzled by your interpretation of chess nomenclature. !? means likely a good move but perhaps unclear, ! means a good move. Hence ! is probably better than !? Also, in chess, the best you get is !! Anyway, I look forward to the rest of this series and reasons 4-18
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The green site at Sand Hills is hard to beat - I think it's one of the best on the course.
It's a tough second shot if going for the green in two as if you miss it sideways at all it spells trouble.
I think I'd give the nod to Sand Hills if we're speaking to hole #1.
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An interesting exercise, this. However, I'm puzzled by your interpretation of chess nomenclature. !? means likely a good move but perhaps unclear, ! means a good move. Hence ! is probably better than !? Also, in chess, the best you get is !! Anyway, I look forward to the rest of this series and reasons 4-18
This is a combination chess and Doak scale. A Choak scale where ?'s are positive marks given for fun. We will make the rules up as we go.
I have 7 hours of road time today so will only be able to make quick responses during pit stops. Thanks.
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The cart path detracts from the opening hole in L.A. Whereas the intro to the SH course is majestic. I give it a draw, because as you say John, the green in Mullen is just blatantly scary.
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JK,
With both ranking as some of the best courses in the world, not sure anyone needs any justification for one over the other, and certainly no need to explain it in detail.
I love the majesty of Sand Hills, but still recall a three hour conversation with Lanny Wadkins, explaining in detail those nuances (greens and shots called for) at Riv that made him think it was about the best course in the world, and certainly from a players perspective, far better than Cypress, despite the latter's greater majesty.
And put another way, Lanny's love of Riv comes from its ability to separate a shotmaker (which he was) by calling for different shots rather than just "choices" brought on by wide fw. This is me speaking, but I sure got the idea that he was in the no penalty, not a great course side. So, I am guessing, even after allowing for the wind at SH, he might not find SH as good as Riv either.
Its just one opinion, second hand at that, but its the reason I can see many good players preferring Riv to SH. It will be interesting if those kinds of opinions surface here on a hole by hole basis.
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An interesting exercise, this. However, I'm puzzled by your interpretation of chess nomenclature. !? means likely a good move but perhaps unclear, ! means a good move. Hence ! is probably better than !? Also, in chess, the best you get is !! Anyway, I look forward to the rest of this series and reasons 4-18
This is a combination chess and Doak scale. A Choak scale where ?'s are positive marks given for fun. We will make the rules up as we go.
John:
You are welcome to make up the rules as you go, but my ? marks in The Confidential Guide were done with chess notation in mind, designating a quirky hole which some would think was great, and some would think was too weird. I can see a ? for the first green at Riviera, so I think we are on the same page ... but at the same time, my ? would mean that some people would prefer the first green at Sand Hills for that very reason.
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Jeff,
Think this guy would be in the same camp as Wadkins? :)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5205/5269153206_178eabc23f_z.jpg)
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An interesting exercise, this. However, I'm puzzled by your interpretation of chess nomenclature. !? means likely a good move but perhaps unclear, ! means a good move. Hence ! is probably better than !? Also, in chess, the best you get is !! Anyway, I look forward to the rest of this series and reasons 4-18
This is a combination chess and Doak scale. A Choak scale where ?'s are positive marks given for fun. We will make the rules up as we go.
John:
You are welcome to make up the rules as you go, but my ? marks in The Confidential Guide were done with chess notation in mind, designating a quirky hole which some would think was great, and some would think was too weird. I can see a ? for the first green at Riviera, so I think we are on the same page ... but at the same time, my ? would mean that some people would prefer the first green at Sand Hills for that very reason.
Actually, a "?" in chess criticism usually denotes a dubious move, where "?!" indicates an unusual move that has double-edged consequences.
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Bill: Thats the way I used them, too, although yours is a much better explanation. Not very many holes in the Gourmet's Choice received a straight ? , but a few did receive the !? or even !?!
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Bill: Thats the way I used them, too, although yours is a much better explanation. Not very many holes in the Gourmet's Choice received a straight ? , but a few did receive the !? or even !?!
Not to rip this subject too far from its roots, but I have long wondered how North Berwick's 16th didn't merit some sort of notation. Why (and how) would you not at least offer a "?"?
Ciao
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I think I prefer #1 at Riviera. I find the 1st at Sand Hills very demanding. A tough tee shot with bunkers right in my landing areas. The second shot is deceptive, and you have to trust a 200 yard shot further left than is comfortable. The third shot is way uphill, maybe a club and a half to a fairly narrow green, with significant penalties for going long or wide.
To me the 1st at Riviera is more a par 4 1/2. You can see everything. It's not as pretty, but it is pretty, and it's a whole lot easier, physically and emotionally. Sand Hills demands full concentration right away.
The 1st green at Sand Hills is one of many tilted disks with subtle contouring. The 1st at Riviera wraps around the front bunker like a boomerang, and has greater flexibility on pin placements.
Funny, since the Sand Hills opener is often cited as one of the great openers in golf, but I prefer Riviera here.
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Bill: Thats the way I used them, too, although yours is a much better explanation. Not very many holes in the Gourmet's Choice received a straight ? , but a few did receive the !? or even !?!
Thinking over your holes that I have played, I would probably award the highly coveted "!?!" to #16 Pacific Dunes! ;D
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In light of the Lanny Wadkins comments it is interesting that neither Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods ever won a professional event at Riviera.
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Moving on to number two I am going to have to admit that each time I finally made it to the second green at Riviera I was too exhausted to form much of an opinion. I do recall it being a very interesting green but after either doing battle with the trees on the right or driving range fence on the left, or both, I'm not sure I really cared any longer. One other par 4 in my life have made this impact on me being the 12th at Torrey Pines South. Each is in line with a par 5 which may play easier for those of superior talent which has made for rare television enjoyment.
All of that is moot in this match play exercise given my perceived greatness of the second green at Sand Hills. (I will use the term green when referring the the entire green complex) The green would not be revealed for what it is without the excellent choice in tees provided to the golfer. The front tee offers a drivable par 4 giving a putter approach where the back tee adjacent to one green requires a mid to long iron.
Given my current busy schedule I do not have the time to explain the infinite possibilities provided by the second green at Sand Hills. I will say that the top shelf provides ample room for a shot that I did not have the gumption to pull off. I could blame that we were playing blind without a caddie but hit the same damn weak attempt the second time around. It is an eternal quandary presented in a setting worth spending years trying to solve.
Matchplay at the seconds
Riviera .
Sand Hills ??? (I did not intend to create a face but will leave it for laughs) Rating = 3?'s
Sand Hills wins. Match even.
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The second hole at Riviera is enormously difficult, as you have said. Plays very long, significantly uphill, with a very sloped green. A traightforward backbreaker. Was #2 at Riviera ever considered a par 5?
The second hole at Sand Hills is easier, since it's shorter. I have mixed feelings about this hole. I find the blindness of the tee shot very disorienting. The landing area is not that wide, perhaps averaging 50 yards, and I often end up in the native grasses left of the golf course. In my experience, a full 20-30% of the tee shots end up there. If I played there regularly, I would improve, after determining a good aiming point and having greater confidence about what to do.
I agree that the second green is outstanding. I remember two brilliant short game plays in my time there. One time, Ted Moore got up and down from just off the back left to a front left pin by playing way out towards the back right of the green. A 15 second play, if you will. The other time, I got up and down to the back right shelf from in front of the green by pitching it up onto the short grass area long and right, and letting it trickle past the pin. I had to make an 8 footer to do it, but I was so fully engaged, I just had to make it, and I did.
Wow, what a tough call to say which is better. Riviera's second is mundane by comparison, whereas Sand Hills is nothing if not exciting. I hate lost balls in the native; I love the approach shot and the green. I'll also say Sand Hills wins by a nose.
Sand Hills #2 wins, all square.
(JK: I hope this OK for me to play along, since I know both courses quite well. I'm really enjoying this.)
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(JK: I hope this OK for me to play along, since I know both courses quite well. I'm really enjoying this.)
John,
Your participation is vital to the success of this thread. Thanks. Given that we have 16 green sites and 15 reasons left to discuss I hope we play again before its conclusion.
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Was #2 at Riviera ever considered a par 5?
I always had thought the answer was yes, and that Riviera was cited as a rare example of a rare course built with two par 5s to start. But based on old LA Open results, it looks like the total par has been 71 since at least 1929. Does anyone know the answer to John's question?
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The second hole at Riviera is enormously difficult, as you have said. Plays very long, significantly uphill, with a very sloped green. A traightforward backbreaker. Was #2 at Riviera ever considered a par 5?
John,
The Members tee in 1975 was a par five; I remember it well.
Bob
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In light of the Lanny Wadkins comments it is interesting that neither Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods ever won a professional event at Riviera.
It's also interesting that more than once the winner there has hit less than 50% of the fairways.
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In light of the Lanny Wadkins comments it is interesting that neither Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods ever won a professional event at Riviera.
It's also interesting that more than once the winner there has hit less than 50% of the fairways.
Lanny didn't overpower the course; he outmaneuvered it! With only 2 par 5's, everybody easily reaches #1, the course doesn't let Jack or Tiger gain strokes on the field with sheer power.
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Pete, Riviera has 3 par 5s. 1, 11 and 17. Your point about power is real interesting to me, especially since winners don't have to hit many fairways there. Maybe it's not so important to hit the fairways, but it is important to miss them in the right places?
A few years ago, one of the golf magazines did an analysis of Tiger's play at Riviera. The author found he didn't win there because he putted terribly.
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I have played both recently(July) also -although only time for 18 at Riv-, JK a fascinating thread, I find them at first glance poles apart, and the kyke plays such an influence, a turf I have no desire to play. Separating the breath taking beauty of Sand Hills from the golf shots required is challenging and for me puts in the coastal ground vs inland argument category, always hard to dismiss the surrounds.
The opening tee shots on 1, I give to SH, but the approach shot into 1, I give to Riv -a shot requiring great commitment to your chosen path and shot, but the green site I give to SH - 1up to SH
Cart paths are a distraction, nothing worse then asking your shot mid flight to either hit or miss the concrete path!
Although 2 at Riv is an excellent and tough hole, I find the SH hole particularly off the back left tee driving over first green, to be an incredibly thrilling tee shot, added to the magnificently contoured and set green site gets SH away to a great start at 2 up.
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Brett,
I can't argue with anyone who would share your opinion. One thing I have not touched on yet, spoiler alert, is my love of kikuyu rough. I would like to see the numbers on how the pros who miss the fairway on #1 and 2 play the holes. I don't see hitting either green in two from the rough.
I will never quite understand the hate for kikuyu as a fairway grass either, but then again, I did grow up on zoysia and optimal conditions await me everywhere I travel.
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In evaluating number three of each course I hate to admit I had to do a bit of research for each. I use The Riviera Country Club, A Definitive History by Geoff Shackelford and Ran's excellent review of Sand Hills on this very site.
My mental block on the third from Riviera came for a lack of oxygen from completing the second and the famous story of Jack Nicklaus giving a clinic from what I believe was the third tee. Upon review I now recall a green and site that, if I were an reviewer interested in intellectual banter, I may declare the finest of its kind due to its simple excellence in regards to tee shot placement and offering of land form. But that is not me.
I was somewhat blank about the third of Sand Hills from the shocking and unforgettable experience of having just played number two. On reviewing the green site from Ran's review I remember now a roller coaster of a beautiful seemingly natural ocean wave of a green. Exactly the opposite of Riviera.
Matchplay at the thirds.
Riviera !?
Sand Hills ?!
A tie. Match remains even through three.
A note. I am playing this out hole by hole and becoming interested who really is going to win this match. I promise you it has not been predetermined.
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Kikuyu is the killer for me. When I lived in L.A. and the Seniors would play Rancho Park, I was always amazed at how low they would go. I found it harder to play out of, around the greens, than almost any other grass I know.
Now, at the Riv, the boys play there in winter, and if there were any low temperatures, prior to, the Kikuyu goes dormant and is much more manageable.
One of the little things that bothers me about the kikuyu at The Riv are on holes # 2 and # 4. Both hillsides right just beg for me to want to try and play it off the hill. But without the lowest of cuts, a futile exercise.
The 3rd hole at Riviera epitomizes the entirety. Simple elegance, without a feature built up, to sore the eye.
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Once again, if memorable experiences were the barometer, Sand Hills would win. Sand Hills #3 is a 210 yard downhill par 3. I don't believe there are any formal bunkers. Maybe there's one a few yards short of the green. The long green is dominated by an enormous ridge encroaching from the left, separating the green into front and beck sections.
I've two putted from the front of the green to a back right pin, and I've two putted from the back right to a front right pin. Very satisfying in each instance. I also remember a birdie into the wind where the ball hit the front of the big slope on the fly, then trickled down next to the hole.
But in this case, I'm going to award the hole to #3 at Riviera. Just a simple sweeping dogleg, lots of room to miss in the rough, but then you're out of position. Good green, with lots of possible pin locations. The third green at Sand Hills has some limitations for pin placements. My memory is a bit foggy about the third at Riviera, but I do remember how visually pleasing I found the tee shot and the walk down to the fairway.
Riviera wins #3 in a controversial decision! Riviera is 1 up.
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Riviera wins #3 in a controversial decision! Riviera is 1 up.
Very nice. I just couldn't pull the trigger on that one but I am glad someone else could.
At Riviera I remember being on the tee at three and my host telling me that no matter what I did I had to stay left to have any shot at the green...Of course I hit the ball weak right. What a beautifully difficult round wrecker of a hole. I wish the people who think water hazards are an abomination had more opportunities to play a course like Riviera where poor position can humiliate the golfer in ways more punishing than just a new ball and a reatee.
I stand by my call of a draw on the matchplay event but perhaps this direct quote from the Riviera book, "The green complex on No. 3 is also one of George Thomas' finest." relieves some of the controversy of the Kirk findings.
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When I first started this exercise I knew the battle at the fourth would be epic. Two holes each reaching perfection in design and memorability. Ben Hogan calls the fourth at Riviera "The greatest par-3 hole in America." giving pause to how the fourth at Sand Hills could be a worthy opponent.
That being said, if any picture captures the majesty of Sand Hills it is the picture of the green side bunker at the fourth being conquered by our very own Bob Huntley as found in this link.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/sand-hills
On to the match.
I was lucky enough to find a scorecard from Riviera from my travels and think it is important to note that the yardage of the fourth is 236 and 223 yards from the blue and white tees respectively. I bring this up because a constant song which emits from the harps of Riviera detractors is how kikuyu negates the ability to play the hole as designed. The argument is that because of the current maintenance meld the redan characteristics are moot. Now lets pull up our big boy pants for this argument. The hole calls for a low draw flown approximately 230 yards to negate whatever the effects of the kikuyu are in even the worst of conditions. I'm in the Ben Hogan camp on this one, if you can't hit it, learn it. I doubt if there is a single member of this site under 70 who can not catch a driver just right at least once a decade to pull this off. The same can not be said for shots requiring height and spin.
Of course if you are of professional caliber you just hit a moon ball five iron right of the hole and avoid the kikuyu all together. I remember sitting down in front of the tube excited about watching the pros play this hole and seeing this option that I did not realize existed. It is exactly the length of the hole that I think makes it great.
The fourth at Sand Hills is sadly often seen as one dimensional because of the pictures of the bunker which seems to be taken from a perspective no one playing the course would ever see. From the tee there is no indication that this is the famous bunker. As a matter of fact, it was long after my initial round when I asked where the bunker Huntley was pictured in was, I discovered it was on the fourth. Given that, irrespective of beauty, the green side bunker at the fourth is one of the finest in the game. I don't know about you but I'm not flying the fairway bunker on the right so my approach to the green is from the center of the fairway at best. Maybe it's the table top, or the gunch to the left of the green, wide open green expanse to the right of the green, but I was only comfortable with a fade approach. A perfect combination of events stimulating the senses which culminates in fun.
Matchplay at the fourths.
Riviera !!!
Sand Hills !?!
Riviera wins out of respect for Hogan because I doubt he would accept a tie.
Riviera goes one up.
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Great conversation. I feel like I am sitting in a smoked filled room, beverage in hand after a round with friends. I wish I know both golf courses better, but this will enrich my experience when I play experience them again.
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One thing that I may be missing, but may show up later, is that Crenshaw did not create more of a tribute to Riviera's fourth hole at Sand Hills.
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The hole calls for a low draw flown approximately 230 yards to negate whatever the effects of the kikuyu are in even the worst of conditions.
I lipped out my ace without this approach. So, I guess you say it doesn't call for it, but encourages it.
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The hole calls for a low draw flown approximately 230 yards to negate whatever the effects of the kikuyu are in even the worst of conditions.
I lipped out my ace without this approach. So, I guess you say it doesn't call for it, but encourages it.
Adam,
Damn the curse of the lipped ace. I was trying as much as anything to put myself into the shoes of those who have not been as fortunate as me to play the course in optimal conditions. Please describe the shot you manufactured that would have such excellent results without using the redan characteristics.
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Well John, at 234 yards that day, it was a driver for me. I tried as I might to hit a slight fade, thinking it would need to stop. Unfortunately at the time, my sunglasses were useless to see anything. My host starting yelling "Go in" and I promptly responded with "don't go in". (There must've been 300, or more, people there that day) I did make the deuce though. As we left the teeing ground my host informed me that if it had gone in, I would've ben only the 21st person in history to have recorded an ace there.
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I was trying to not post this but I can't help it. I LOVE this thread!!! I never thought of comparing these courses so directly. I love them both (but don't know Sand Hills as well as I should having only played a few times). I am replaying it in my mind and comparing and bouncing back and forth and reading the comments and thinking about them and revisiting my thoughts once again. It is like comparing kids, how do you love one more than the other? I will see and learn........................... Thanks John for this awesome thread!!
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It is like comparing kids, how do you love one more than the other? I will see and learn........................... Thanks John for this awesome thread!!
Jim-What a great analogy!
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Back after driving north to Hydesville, California, to see my sister for a day or so.
Another apples to oranges comparison, similar to the third hole matchup.
#4 at Riviera is just gorgeous. I love the huge fronting bunker. It offers the chance for a 40-50 yard bunker shot for a mishit or popped up tee shot. Similar to the third at Pasatiempo, the hole is well designed as a par four, with obstacles designed for the weaker player.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I've lost my ability to easily draw the ball the last 3-4 years. I has to do with getting the club slightly stuck behind me, making it impossible to attack the ball from the inside. About 10-12 years ago, I carried a driver and a 3-wood (since then, my second club has been 4-wood), where the 3-wood was well suited to a high draw. For a few years, I use driver on holes that were straight or turned right, and used 3-wood off the tee for dogleg left holes. Back then, I would have stood on the 4th tee at Riviera and tried to hit the big draw with the fairway wood. Today, I'd hit a full driver from 236, maybe aim left and try to fade it a bit, knowing that missing long is a relatively easy up and down. Even from 222, playing slightly longer than the yardage, it's still a little driver, maybe the 4-wood, if the first or second fairway wood shots of the day (second shots on holes #1 and #2) went well. Great hole.
But I'm going to give the win to the 4th at Sand Hills, a majestic and spectacularly beautiful downhill par 4. The long range view beyond the golf course is especially nice here, the best of the best. Like the 2nd hole, the fairway is reasonably generous, maybe 60 yards, but off the fairway is native grass, a near certain one stroke penalty. From the double diamond tees (about 465 yards), a good drive will leave me a 4- or 5-iron to the green. The second tee, the original back tee, will yield a short iron approach, but the right fairway bunker pinches the fairway at the exact wrong spot for me. In either case, the tee shot piques the senses and demands excellence.
The approach shot is sublime. The green, perhaps the only unnatural green construction on the course, is benched into the side of the dune, perched a few feet above grade. The rather simple disc green, sloped significantly back to front, falls away to sloped short grass recovery areas short and right of the green, well designed to encourage a variety of short game recovery plays, from putter to flop wedge.
Perhaps the most significant drawback at Riviera is the limited nature of short game recovery, due to the limitations of kikuyu grass. Not only is the fourth green at Sand Hills a beautiful creation, once again demanding excellence in execution, but the short game plays there are outstanding.
Sand Hills #4 wins. All square.
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Outstanding thread!
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Our Neil Regan produced this wonderful photo a few years ago:
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/SandHillsno4.jpg)
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Family obligations have made it difficult for me to proceed in a manner both these great courses deserve. We will return January 3rd with the battle of the fifths. It is my hope to make that dreaded return to work a touch brighter.
Thank you to all those who have said kind things to me both on this thread and behind the scenes.
Merry Christmas
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Bump.
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Well, I've been to Riviera, but haven't played it, so I'm not really playing along.
All I can say is that JK doesn't write (sound) like JK on this thread. Am I wrong or is this a different writer's voice that JK has assumed as host of this fine thread? :D Don't let my distraction and observation knock you off the subject. I'm looking forward to seeing how those well familiar with both courses score it out.
I don't have Shack's book on Riviera, so I don't know what the answer is, but I'll ask; did Dave and Dan, the bunkerhill boys, change any significant green contours in their work there, or was it totally confined to bunker resto? Given their work on Sand Hills, did their work at Riviera translate to any similar feel at all as to bunker placement and strategy relative to the green contours? Since I don't think Thomas's fundamental golf design architecture was changed in my limitted understanding, by Dave and Dan under Ben and Bill's guidance, I'd guess the answer is, no.
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Dick,
I don't see any reference to bunker hill boys or even the work Crenshaw did at Riviera in Shack's book. It is my believe that Thomas had more to do with the design of Sand Hills then Crenshaw had to do with Riviera. The modern work done by group Fazio is another topic that will be covered in the bunker thread.
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I was reared on a course where we had a return to the clubhouse after four holes where the clubhouse rats would request a report on the match. This has stuck with me in that I always like to know where I stand after the fourth. We have reached the fifth in this match and Riviera stands one up, in my account, and one hell of a four hole stretch it has been.
My greatest and perhaps most pleasant surprise found at Riviera was the fifth. I was going to write this before I peeked at Shack's book thinking I was some lone discoverer of the greatness of this hole. Between the praise of Thomas, Shackelford and Doak I am not even Musketeer worthy. To paraphrase in the most liberal sense the fifth at Riviera is the template from which the modern movement of quasi-minimalism was built. It is a wonderful use of natural landform in addition to earth movement of a scale unusual in its day. It is also not lost that it is sandwiched between two very fine par 3's and requires a drive of unusual accuracy while being prodded by an uncomfortable right side hazard. A large mound on the right, now common in modern minimalism, the bunker on the left green side, and interesting green...it's all there.
The fifth at Sand Hills provides a worthy opponent in the form of a hole that is so much more than a single hole in itself. One of my favorite things when playing the great courses across this country is when I am told that I just need to throw caution to the wind and play the back tee. We waited until our second go around for that pleasure which was fine as the hole from the up tees is fun in itself. Oh well, we have all heard of half par holes, the fifth at Sand Hills may be a hole and a half.
Match play at the fifths
Riviera !!!
Sand Hills ?
Riviera wins and goes 2 up
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I see the battle of the 5th holes as a closer contest.
The 5th hole at Riviera heads to the bottom of the barranca, perhaps the most downhill hole on the course. The tee shot is pretty tight, and the second shot plays about one less club downhill. The green is very sloped down to the left. It's easy to leave yourself a 40-60 foot downhill or sidehill putt here. A solid drive will leave me about a 7-iron to the green. This second shot is great fun.
The big mound/ridge on the right side of the fairway fascinates me. My understanding is the mound was constructed, an unnatural feature. But it's so large, so different than anything else on the course, that it looks and feels natural to me. It seems to me the big mound should have two functions. First, it obscures the view of the green from the right side. Second, weaker players could have used the downhill slope on the far side of the mound to help propel a longer second shot (fairway wood) down the hill and onto the green. I don't know whether the club ever used the mound for this purpose, but the mound is covered with thick, deep grass, so it is useless in this regard.
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/Hole5.jpg)
The 5th at Sand Hills is a subtle pleasure, a nice example of how Coore and Crenshaw used a simple feature to dictate a hole design. In this case, the green is situated between a large dune ridge on the right and a smaller mound, perhaps 30 yards long and just a few feet high, guarding the left side. The orientation of the green favors an approach from the right side of the generous fairway; as expected, missing your mark aiming for the right side is more penalizing. From the regular back tees, this is a fairly short par 4, and I can usually use a pitching wedge for my second shot, give or take a club. But there is a "double diamond" back tee box which makes the drive much more demanding, and leaves a middle-iron, which makes the second shot over the mound from the left side a more dicey proposition. The 5th green at Sand Hills is a rather gentle one, with a couple of subtle features.
I play this hole by aiming down the middle and taking what I get off the tee. I'm not talented enough to try for one side of the fairway here. If I end up with a good angle I'll take it. The 5th green location is sensational.
To recap, we are comparing two holes with similar sized mounds that help dictate hole strategy. One is perfectly natural, the other man-made. Riviera gets the win here, in part for the amazing, unnatural fairway ridge that looks so right.
Riviera wins the 5th hole, and goes 1 up.
(By the way, if you know the Riviera ridge is natural, I will change my analysis to match reality...thanks.)
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Isn't the bunker on the 5th at Sand Hills one of the two manmade bunkers on the course? I loved the hole as I eagled it the last time I played there. Both holes are fantastic by the way.
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John,
Life has once again gotten in the way of my postings but I will quickly note that the large man made mound at Riviera has been documented to also protect the green in flood events. With the sixth hole coming up I am afraid this match is getting lop sided. Funny though how I feel Sand Hills will make a run just before the half. Isn't that always the way of great matches.
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Isn't the bunker on the 5th at Sand Hills one of the two manmade bunkers on the course? I loved the hole as I eagled it the last time I played there. Both holes are fantastic by the way.
Jim:
The majority of the bunkers at Sand Hills are man made. A bunch of them may have had the start of a blowout to work from, but they were dug out and changed. There were only a handful of really big bunkers on the site when I walked it prior to groundbreaking ... the two big ones on #18, the left side of #1, the bunker in front of #15 green, and the big blowout left of #4 were all there, perhaps a few others.
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Tom D, can you comment on any work or consulting that Bill and Ben did and Dan and Dave did on the ground at the Riv that may have any relevance to this discussion? I really have no idea. I get JK's drift that Thomas may have had more influence on Sand Hills than anyone involved at Sand Hills could possibly have had on the current Riv features, placement, contours or strategy. That sounds right to me. But, I'm just asking about the irony, if it is that, that Ben and Bill, and ground crew of Dan and Dave did tread on Riv to whatever extent.
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John Kirk,
Re: your question,
I was told by a reliable source that the green-facing side of the mound on 5 at Riv did used to be closely mown to allow a ball to be kicked off it towards the putting surface, back when even the best players often had a wood for their second.
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John,
Life has once again gotten in the way of my postings but I will quickly note that the large man made mound at Riviera has been documented to also protect the green in flood events. With the sixth hole coming up I am afraid this match is getting lop sided. Funny though how I feel Sand Hills will make a run just before the half. Isn't that always the way of great matches.
Are you saying Sand Hills needs a run of birdies? To hole a few putts?
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John,
Life has once again gotten in the way of my postings but I will quickly note that the large man made mound at Riviera has been documented to also protect the green in flood events. With the sixth hole coming up I am afraid this match is getting lop sided. Funny though how I feel Sand Hills will make a run just before the half. Isn't that always the way of great matches.
Happily/patiently waiting to share parallel thoughts. I've run the match through in my head, and the final result will be close. Sand Hills has an exceptional finish.
Thanks JK and SW for verifying the man-made nature of the ridge on #5.
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Dick, I'm sure Tom can give much more detail, but, I do know Dan built the alternate 10th green for Forse. Also, C&C built the alternate greens on 6 and 16. They aren't exactly built as they are just laying there. Which, in the few talks I've had with Mr. Crenshaw, is Thomas' influence in all their designs. Nothing built up against the natural flow of the terrain.
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(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/Hole5.jpg)
John,
How far back is that mound (as well as the bunker) from the green? In the picture, it sure looks like the mound may be quite a distance away from the green.
There is mention of in the past being able to use the back side of the mound to propel shots toward the green. Is that still a viable option?
JK mentions that the hole requires a drive of "unusual accuracy". Does that make it a better hole than #5 at SH where you have the option of challenging the bunker at the inside corner or playing away from it, then being faced with a shot over the mound to the left of the green with the bunker on the right now coming into play?
For me, the 5th at Sand Hills would have to get the nod from my plays there...
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Scott,
The mound, which is actually more of a ridge built in resemblance to a retention basin, appears to be approximately 30 yds from the green. I am sure the mound was shaved before the Fazio renovations as I would think Mr. Huntley could verify. I do not recall how it was when I played. Please remember that longer grasses do slow down the flow of water so given the modern game perhaps some clever engineer felt flood prevention took precedence over obsolete architecture. The mound does still play an important visual role in the play of the hole for every skill level.
As far as the difficulty of the drive goes I personally have trouble with ob right. Maybe that is why Riviera kills me, the course is routed bass ackwards with ob right all the way around. I grew up on a Bendelow course which is always the exact opposite.
Sure there are bunkers right on the fifth at Sand Hills but they are quite simple with a short iron to extricate oneself.
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Jk,
Thanks for clarifying. In the picture it looked to me like the mound and bunker may be in play off the tee rather than up by the green. As for the mound itself, would it serve more of a purpose of making the second shot more blind in nature if one is playing in from the right side of the fairway rather than actually coming into play? With the kikuyu grass in play am I correct to assume that a run up shot isn't much of an option? Haven't played on the stuff, but have heard from many that have that the ball simply sticks, rather than running out. Therefore the mound may have been more of an architectural feature in the past but not so much with today's aerial game? Just a thought...
As for getting out of the bunker on the right at SH, I have seen many balls up against the face with no shot but sideways or backwards. Your bunker play must be superb if you have come to the conclusion that it's a simple shot to the green from there (or haven't had the pleasure of a ball to the front portion of the bunker).
Thanks for the tour - it's fun to learn a bit more about these two courses.
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Scott,
Once past the mound there continues to be a kick plate that will move your ball onto the green which in itself slopes from right to left. Like I have said many times before I find the kikuyu to be a fine playing surface that is no more sticky than zoysia. Before I had played perfectly maintained fescue, like at Sand Hills, I thought the kikuyu at Riviera was the finest playing surface I had ever seen. But then again, perfect playing conditions is my middle name.
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I am driving all day today, so I'll compare the 6th holes tonight. Thanks.
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I decided to write the opening paragraph to this match before I did any research. When first considering this project it first occurred to me that the Riviera would win this hole with little consideration. One of the great things about doing a hole a day is that it gives me time to think about each match for an unreasonable amount of time the day before. So, why even bother? Am I wrong, or did I once read this is Gene's favorite par 3 at Sand Hills? I'm not going to all George on you guys but this morning I was going over the seven wonders in the world that I have personally witnessed and in that group was the sixth green at Riviera and the Sand Hills region. So with an open mind and a legitimate concern that having Riviera 3 up after 6 hole could hurt the credibility of this thread, I trudge on with a researched opinion to follow:
I had a great time playing the sixth at Sand Hills since it allows for a punch driver using the contours of both the land and green. I'm bored with my own attempts to quantify so stealing from Ran; and because I love his new word Crenshawstruck which describes most of our time at Sand Hills.
"Sixth hole, 200 yards; On a property with pronounced land forms, blind shots add to the enjoymentand variety of the challenge. However, too many blind shots and a course may ultimately lose some of its appeal. Conversely, too few blind shots andthe opportunity for the architect to create some uncertainty and mystery has been lost.Coore & Crenshawstruck the perfect balance at Sand Hills, with one example being their use of a ridge sixty yardsshy ofthe 6th green that obscures the left front half of the green."
The first time I played the sixth at Riviera I was brought back to a simpler time when reading Tommy trying and successfully hitting his tee shot at Pine Valley in the D.A. was entertaining. So what else can I do but try to replicate his feat by hitting the bunker in the middle of the sixth. I missed of course. Oh well, at least the guy I played with that day is on this site keeping me honest. Hell, I don't even remember where I hit that shot or if I ever pared the hole off my original tee shot. What difference does it make when a hole is so great you try to hit a bad shot and fail.
All I can say is that the green is a miracle, not a man made miracle either or it would have been successfully copied. I can not describe the hole any further without using the full two pages Geoff dedicated in his book. It is simply the finest hole ever built in the history of the game, bar none.
Match play
Riviera !∞?
Sand Hills !?!
Riviera goes 3 up but I feel the momentum changing.
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As far as the difficulty of the drive goes I personally have trouble with ob right. Maybe that is why Riviera kills me, the course is routed bass ackwards with ob right all the way around. I grew up on a Bendelow course which is always the exact opposite.
John, you prefer the "Muirfield routing." Front nine clockwise around the perimeter, back nine inside, all the OB is left. Chicago Golf Club and the little known but wonderful Sonoma Golf Club are two American examples.
Riviera is the anti-Muirfield routing. Maybe Thomas fought a hook!
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I hate to rain on John's parade, but you can pump one OB at the Riv on 1, 12, 13 and 18. There is OB right on 5, 7 and 8; not sure how the driving range affects this ratio?
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As I've said, I never actually played Riv, but it just seems to me that any forgone conclusion that the 6th at Riv is unquestionably a finer hole is a little premature. Sure, there is that whole uniqueness thing with the bunker in the middle of green and the other foreground artistic bunker and more nondescript left and rear Bs. But, the notion of the variety of pin placements at Riv with "quadrants" around the bunker is I think matched by the enormous green at SH and its poofing and rolling Maxwell-like contours that effectively make cross country putting a mystery and no sure two putt. It seems to me that the quadrants around the bunker and the foreground bunker at Riv force a target aerial game, whereas SH is more diverse in how to approach with more bound in ground running possibilities. The snarly bunker at SH 6 is formidable if you get in it. The Riv handicapp at 6th is 15 and plays up 160ish to 199. SH can play longer, but of course isn't handicapped. I think the prevailing wind at SH is mostly quartering left to right, making the large forground bunkerpartially obscuring the green a mental thing that you have to take on to either ride the wind or fight it with a draw, and so the tee shot is just more puzzling and thoughtful in a sense than Riv. Not to detract at all from the consternation of dealing with the quadrants and mental gymnastics that the center bunker plays. I just don't think thee is any hands down winner between the two, but only on impression, not play at Riv. Not that I personally can hit the shot needed at either more than 1 out of several anyway... ;D
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RJ,
I thought I gave the sixth at Sand Hills a fair shot. When I came to the conclusion that the the sixth at Riviera is the finest par three ever built anywhere in the history of golf it was game over. This in no way was meant to reflect poorly on the worthy opponent.
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RJ,
I thought I gave the sixth at Sand Hills a fair shot. When I came to the conclusion that the the sixth at Riviera is the finest par three ever built anywhere in the history of golf it was game over. This in no way was meant to reflect poorly on the worthy opponent.
John, is that because you can putt around the bunker using the slopes?
Otherwise not sure how it could be compared to the original Eden, for example.
Enjoying the match. Has Sand Hills pressed yet?
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Mainly because the hole sits on an ordinary plot of ground and has not been able to be duplicated. Yes you can putt around the bunker.
Sand Hills does not need to press with 7 and 8 on the bench.
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I don't have much energy tonight, and I need to hit the sack.
My primary objection to the 6th hole at Riviera is the inability to hit a high draw from the back tee. The tree line is very tight on the right side from the back, and I imagine there are quite a few pros who feel they have to manipulate their tee shots.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green. It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par. At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult. You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead. Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.
When the greens are super fast, rolling at 12 or higher on the Stimpmeter, I think #6 at Sand Hills is simply too severe. In fact, I say the par 3 holes at Sand Hills are less compelling than the great 4s and 5s.
#6 at Riviera ranks very high on the cool scale. I haven't been able to hang out long enough at the 6th green to know how well you can get from one portion to the next.
Neither is one of my favorites on these courses, though #6 at Riviera has great notoriety.
Riviera wins and goes 2 up.
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How can Kavanaugh forget!!!
Pin is front left, the toughest pin on the course I think. Huge back to front slope(think Eden). John does aim for the bunker hoping for a draw with a 6 iron and dead blocks it right of the green about 2/3 of the way thru it's depth. Alex, his caddie says he can try a huge flop shot that needs to land just over the bunker in the center of the green, which is between him and the hole, and let the ball just trickle down the big slope 20 ft to the hole or just play to the fringe short of the green and try to make a 20 ft uphill putt. Alex recommends the safe route to avoid making double if he doesn't pull off the flopasaurus. John looks at me with mischief in his eye and says "Well, I've gotta try the shot over the bunker. When else I'm I going to be able to play this shot." He nips it just right with a big swing, lands it in the collar just over the bunker with spin, ball takes one bounce forward and then almost stops, it then starts to barely roll down the hill, picks up speed a little until it runs out of gumption and ends up a foot from the cup.
I look forward to describing again the first time he played 10.
Enjoying this John.
One note re 5 - The backside of the little Manmade Alps right of the green was always cut as fairway once you cleared the horseshoe at the top of the hill, enabling the ball to bound onto the green with a fairway wood or long iron. It actually provided for a 2 club shorter route if you challenged the hill successfully. Another of the many cool alternate route ideas that Thomas put all over Riviera.
This hole lies dormant with the tees 30yards forward from their original placement, and the equipment of today. The tee complex got changed in the early 80s to soften the descent from the 4th green to the back 5th tee as there was a fear of litigation if someone fell down the very steep hill, which happened on #1 a year earlier. LAAC made the decision to eliminate their exposure to those kinds of lawsuits by "fixing" the problem and just moving up the tees and creating these huge Ted Robinson designed freeway tees with almost no descent from the 4th green. The original back tee was about 10 yards behind and below the very pushed up green. Kind of benched into it. The tee shot on 5 would fly into the Manmade hill in the fairway that acted as a governor for distance leaving you a 215 yard second shot. If you stand on the top of that hill you will see that these details still exist today, but given the 3rd generation of tees(the Robinson tees were replaced and an attempt to find the old tee missed it's mark), equipment, and the long grass on the back side of the greenside hill, this wonderful hole does not play as intended. It's quite a tribute to Thomas and Bell that still, it's a cool hole.
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John Kirk -
Isn't it an another tip of the hat to Riviera that the right side of the green wants a fade and the left side wants a draw? Another example of Thomas examining your skills in different ways round after round.
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Michael R,
Since my visit I have seen two or three other guys' photos of their day there and in all of them, there is Alex! I can understand why - he was awesome.
Great memories that I think of every day! On course and off.
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Michael,
It's 3am and this old man is up as old men tend to be. Reading your post reminds me of that shot, thank you as now I can go back to sleep with pleasant memories. I knew something memorable happened, I just couldn't remember what it was.
John,
From the very back tee to the right pin the hole can play as a dog leg. As long as it plays left to right it is something I can enjoy during match play from a pro set of tees.
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John - It was one of 3 memorable shots that day. The 3rd being the four footer I gave you for par on 10. ;D
Scott - Alex is indeed the best out there, by a bunch. Ask Kevin Na, whom he has helped a few Nissan's.
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My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green. It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par. At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult. You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead. Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.
The green is too severe? John, you are a member at Ballyneal, which has the most severe greens I've ever seen. How many shots there are you asked to play into greens where hitting it to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par? And quite a few of them, if played from the tips, will be around 200 yards or more.
Sure, hitting to the high portions of the green at #6 at Sand Hills is a tough call. But can't the same be said for #15 at Ballyneal, for example? Put the pin front right, just over the knob, and it's just as tough a shot (unless your name's Glossy!). I don't want to pull us off track with the Ballyneal comparison, but had to call you on that. ;D
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Scott, The greens speeds day in day out are no where near the same. Plus, the bowled nature of 15 makes for some opportunities to air break.
Now, we can talk about being out of position, on any green, and how that affects a persons perception of what's fair.
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John Kavanaugh
I totally agree with you. I like Riviera better than Sand Hills and think the green complexes at Riviera are amazing and some of the best in golf, especially the par 3s. I am late to the thread but joined just in time for one of my favorite holes on the course, #6. Some on here say it is contrived. If it is, so be it, I think it a wonderful golf hole with many options. Even if the trees encroach a little on the right, just play a different shot!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4411495155_4e01afa334_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4412264074_0fae78d1a3_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4037/4412264430_b1e1120a4e_b.jpg)
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One of the beauties of having been privileged to play Riviera is reflecting on and sometimes meeting celebrities of all facets. The seventh brings to mind our own long lost Tommy and his tails of woe concerning the whale tales found on the fairway bunker of number 7. Little did I know, or remember, that the Fazio remodel was the least of the work done to what is still a fine and challenging hole. Turns out the great flood of 39 and the flood control project of 73 resulted in substantial changes to the original design. The hole is not a let down by any means but is no match for its opponent today.
The seventh at Sand Hills has had much written about it for good reason. In the three or so times I played the hole I hit driver every time and ended up in the right rough every time. I do not have the power to hit a draw that can find the green, and sadly never will, or did. It is a tempting little bastard despite that admission. Love what it is but perhaps love where it is in the round even more. I feel like I'm playing the Celtics with a huge lead and Rondo and Cousy just came off the bench. The momentum has changed.
Match play.
Riviera !
Sand Hills !??
Sand Hills wins the hole to pull within 2 up.
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Scott, The greens speeds day in day out are no where near the same. Plus, the bowled nature of 15 makes for some opportunities to air break.
Now, we can talk about being out of position, on any green, and how that affects a persons perception of what's fair.
Adam,
I quite agree regarding the green speeds.
The point I was trying to make is that I think it's okay to have a hole or two (or pin position or two) that almost REQUIRE a good golf shot to set up a chance for birdie or par. In the case of Sand Hills, I think there is a perfect blend of contouring on the greens (some more, some less). You don't get beat up over the course of 18 holes...
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I agree, the 7th is about as good as it gets. Short enough that you feel like you should be able to make birdie with ease, but sadly a 5 or more shows up on the card about as often.
A front pin on this hole is devilish...
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Riviera
Hitting the fairway here is harder than it looks. Bunkers through the fairway and the big ravine right. The bunkers around the green eat any errant shot.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/4411496139_c093b3b6e9_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2712/4412264936_7b88129eb9_b.jpg)
Sand Hills
My playing partner here drove it 3 feet! Missed the putt. Amazing hole. Lover the many options off the tee. The obvious one is to lay up and if I ever play SH again that is what I will do. Trying to get on the green simply doesn't justify the risk.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2697720239_9f28fbfc40_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2697720493_c0ab355f9f_b.jpg)
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John,
I have just had another look at the photograph of No. 6 at Riviera. I played there last month for the first time in thirty-five years. It looks like a totally different hole; the extension of the green long and left has given the hole a new dimension, it is easier to play.
As I age, I cannot recall the exact detail, but short of the green there did seem to have been a raised banking requiring the tee shot to come in from some elevation.
Bob
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The 7th at SH is an absolutely incredible short par 4 even for players like myself who cannot drive the green and it certainly appears to have been done with virtually no earth being moved. The short second shot is incredibly challenging as a shot which is just short rolls all the way back down the hill, slightly long is an impossible up and down and any putt from the back of the green is pure death. Number 8 is very cool and a whole lot of fun but to me, 7 is brilliant.
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Sir Boab, did you get any distinct impressions regarding your memory of the bunkers left of the fairway on 7, and whether the Fazio remodel was overtly noticable? When I visited the course on a late sunday afternoon where Tommy took me around in a cart like he owned the place,,, :o ;) ;D, I remember he brought me to those remodelled bunkers at 7 and pitched a fit over the desecration from their originals. Of course, I saw the early 'upholstered look' somewhat typical of Fazio's other restoration work that was being discussed often in those days (i.e. Merion's) But, I just wondered now that time has past, if the bunkers seemed desecrated to you? ;D
By the way, I have to look back on that warm summer Sunday evening tour in the gloaming conducted by Tommy, with a late nightime re-creation of the OJ night of terror tour, as one of my most fond memories of any trips I ever took. We did a scouring tour of Rustic under construction earlier in that day, and Daniel Wexler was there at the Riv for me to meet and chat with, and my wife just loved the whole thing also. and we finished at a neat Italian restaurant frequented by stars where Tommy's Dad used to play drums in a combo, as I remember. Maybe it doesn't beat an actual round of golf at the Riv for diehards, but it was still a special memory. The club was just ooozing with atmosphere and I couldn't help but imagine some stories Sir Boab had recounted to me about his play there and one of his special playing competitors. It really evoked the aura of that real Hollywood stylistic ideal of the perhaps bygone era my generation was raised imagining. At least that is how a country mouse like me took it all in... ::) :o
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John Kirk -
Isn't it an another tip of the hat to Riviera that the right side of the green wants a fade and the left side wants a draw? Another example of Thomas examining your skills in different ways round after round.
Interesting, "advanced" comment about the course. Wouldn't that comment hold true for all concave greens, with the opposite (draw to right, fade to left) true for convex greens?
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My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green. It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par. At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult. You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead. Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.
The green is too severe? John, you are a member at Ballyneal, which has the most severe greens I've ever seen. How many shots there are you asked to play into greens where hitting it to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par? And quite a few of them, if played from the tips, will be around 200 yards or more.
Sure, hitting to the high portions of the green at #6 at Sand Hills is a tough call. But can't the same be said for #15 at Ballyneal, for example? Put the pin front right, just over the knob, and it's just as tough a shot (unless your name's Glossy!). I don't want to pull us off track with the Ballyneal comparison, but had to call you on that. ;D
Hi Scott,
Well, is it harder to two putt to the high knob on Ballyneal #15, or is it more difficult to two putt to the front left slope on Sand Hills #6?
Even if it is equally difficult on average, what I dislike is the nature of the putt on #6. Almost no matter what you do, the ball ends up 15 or more feet below the hole, often rolling completly off the front. You can't stop the ball around the hole, ever. At Ballyneal, a really great putt will yield the tap-in.
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I feel like I'm playing the Celtics with a huge lead and Rondo and Cousy just came off the bench. The momentum has changed.
Sand Hills wins the hole to pull within 2 up.
Rondo AND Cousy! Kirk calls Allen off the bench, in for Cousy. Garden fans breathe a sigh of relief.
I have many fond memories on #7 at Sand Hills. During one 4 day trip, I layed back with 4-iron off the tee 5 or 6 times in a row, which leaves the 75 to 85 yard pitch. On the last day, I pulled driver and hit the 3 yard draw onto the green and two putted for birdie. Man that's a good memory; I'll never forget that one.
DO NOT hit the 225 -240 yard shot. It's not worth it. Lay back, or go for it. However, the green is nicely perched above the fairway to encourage all sorts of second shots, should you foolishly leave the 20-50 yard shot.
#7 at Riviera is a fine hole. I absolutely love the gentle tilt of the barranca. Almost every approach shot is a half club uphill or downhill, even though you'd swear the ground is flat. Same with the putts. You just can't believe some of the putts that break toward the ocean.
I've hit a couple of great longish irons onto the 7th green. Solid drive for me leaves about 175 yards, and that's a good 5-iron for me, adding in the uphill. Nailed it, still 35 feet short. Hit the putt much harder than it looks, because I've learned that's what you need to do. Easy 2 footer for par. Oooo, that feels good.
The win goes to Sand Hills as expected, but it's not a runaway for me.
Riviera is 1 up.
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My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green. It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par. At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult. You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead. Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.
The green is too severe? John, you are a member at Ballyneal, which has the most severe greens I've ever seen. How many shots there are you asked to play into greens where hitting it to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par? And quite a few of them, if played from the tips, will be around 200 yards or more.
Sure, hitting to the high portions of the green at #6 at Sand Hills is a tough call. But can't the same be said for #15 at Ballyneal, for example? Put the pin front right, just over the knob, and it's just as tough a shot (unless your name's Glossy!). I don't want to pull us off track with the Ballyneal comparison, but had to call you on that. ;D
Hi Scott,
Well, is it harder to two putt to the high knob on Ballyneal #15, or is it more difficult to two putt to the front left slope on Sand Hills #6?
Even if it is equally difficult on average, what I dislike is the nature of the putt on #6. Almost no matter what you do, the ball ends up 15 or more feet below the hole, often rolling completly off the front. You can't stop the ball around the hole, ever. At Ballyneal, a really great putt will yield the tap-in.
Maybe I need another go round Sand Hills with that pin. I've only had it twice in my plays, and have not had the experience you have. I've hit it to 15 or 20 feet both times - missed both but made par each time. Yes it was a scary putt, but nothing that couldn't be handled. I can see where being above the hole or on the right side of the green would compound things, but the obvious answer is "don't hit it there".
Maybe the play to that pin is leaving the ball short of the hole, even if it means leaving it short of the green? I've often thought of the front left pin as more of a "green light pin" since any play above the hole typically results in the ball coming back down to the pin. Too long and you miss the ridge and are in trouble. I typically play a draw, okay more of a hook due to my limited abilities ;D, so I would think a play to the middle of the green with a draw would find the ball close to the pin.
A back pin on that hole seems to be more demanding. Again, limited plays on my part so I may not have seen everything you have.
For what it's worth, I simply threw #15 at Ballyneal in the mix because it requires a shot over 200 yards with an almost impossible two putt if one's not fairly close to the hole, and in the right area (specifically to the front right pin, just over the large knob). One could also throw a few other holes there into the mix as well, but i won't get into that debate. I love the occasional, almost impossible pin position. Again, let me stress OCCASIONAL. I wouldn't want a heavy dose of that over the course of 18 holes.
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"I know you can get eight in here." is a quote from my 78 year old mother. Seven responsible adults, who had had a few drinks, were riding in a stretch limo from Christmas dinner back to the house. The limo was advertised as built for eight and when I observed we were a tight fit at seven my Mother made her observation that makes me queasy to this day. When I told Dad I had rented a limo he immediately felt we should ask the driver to join us at the table. And this is the tie to Riviera as Larry David and the course once again entered my life making my day just a bit brighter.
The best thing I can say about the eighth at Riviera is that in match play it only counts as one hole. Another good thing is that I don't know if I have ever been so confused in my life on a tee shot that should be simple. On my first play I shanked my drive ob right, the second I found the trees between the alternate fairways and the third, from the member tees is a blank. I know in my heart that the eighth will be a great hole once again before I die, but it just isn't quite there yet. There is an excellent description of the eighth in Geoff's book by Tom Kite that ends "Truly one of the finest short par 4's anywhere." All I can say is go to Geoff's site and buy the book.
The eighth at Sand Hills is rightfully recognized as truly one of the finest short par 4's anywhere. The only regrets I have in my life are those things that I chose not to do, and attempt to putt around the bunker this hole to a front pin fits squarely in my regret peg hole. Ran mentions that the boomerang green is one of Crenshaw's favorites and I would agree. I love everything about the hole, every time I played it. Really can't add anything more.
Match play at the eighths.
Riviera ?
Sand Hills ??
Sand Hills wins to pull within one. Riviera 1 up going into the ninth where I sit here now without a clue how that hole will be decided.
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Riv 2 up at the turn.
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Riv 2 up at the turn.
I hope not with the tenth coming up right off the turn. The tenth and seventeenth are the only remaining holes where I have a good idea what is going to happen. If I have to come up with one more cheesy title I may be forced to shoot myself.
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The only good thing I'll say about the 8th at Riv is that I saw Larry David there one day, looking as uncomfortable as he ever did on television. I have Sand Hills up 2 and it will be a bloodbath on the back nine.
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The eighth at Sand Hills is rightfully recognized as truly one of the finest short par 4's anywhere. The only regrets I have in my life are those things that I chose not to do, and attempt to putt around the bunker this hole to a front pin fits squarely in my regret peg hole.
John, I believe this is the shot, isn't it?
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2110.jpg?t=1294421421)
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Eric,
Yes that is the shot, nice to see Mac take such an interest in my play. I would have really had to hug the sand for a successful putt but I seem to think the backstop behind the pin is more pronounced than the picture suggests. Looks like I kept my head down but I may see a bit of chicken wing trying to creep in. What happened, I can't remember.
Terry,
Could you post you hole by hole results. No descriptions or cheesy titles are required, but no less desired.
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I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.
And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.
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I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.
And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.
I love them both myself, but like my children, it is possible to love one of them more. I could see challenging your opinion leading to an even larger lead for SH. Thanks.
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I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.
And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.
Terry - Riv winning #7? I'd like to hear your reasoning behind that one. I won't disagree with what you've come up with, just curious as to how you arrived at that particular hole.
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I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.
And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.
Terry - Riv winning #7? I'd like to hear your reasoning behind that one. I won't disagree with what you've come up with, just curious as to how you arrived at that particular hole.
Trying to keep it a fair fight, to tell you the truth! Maybe I should have given 9 to the Riv instead of 7...
Your question highlights that this exercise if fun, but not exactly fair because if you go hole by hole you get some wacky matchups. A "fairer" way might be to compare 3's to 3's and 4's to 4's and 5's to 5's. I think Sand Hills would win that match-up handily as well. Bottom line is that Sand Hills is my #1 course all time and Riviera is #6, so they are both off the charts great.
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Due to time constraints, I'll make this brief.
The 8th at Riviera has two fairways, but the reward for attempting the left fairway option doesn't come close to the risk encountered. This is probably the least interesting hole on the course.
The 8th at Sand Hills has great notoriety. From the back tee box (about 360 yards), the tee shot for guys with my distance (say a 230-240 yard carry when struck solidly) is angled perfectly to "bite off as much as you risk". It's a driver/wedge hole from back there.
From the front box (about 290 yards), I suppose I'd try to drive it, but I'd aim out left and try to avoid that little pitch over the lion's mouth bunker.
It's a pretty easy hole. If you make 5, you're "screwing" up. I've made 3 or 4 birdies out of maybe 10-12 tries here. I don't find the hole any more compelling than the 7th.
Easy choice. Sand Hills wins, and the match is all square.
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Thanks John. We wii resume on Monday with the conclusion of the front side.
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My memory played an evil trick on me concerning the ninth at Riviera. I thought I remembered it as a par 5 until a few holes ago someone mentioned the weakness of the five pars on the course. Just when I was ready to list the ninth hole in my argument I realized it was indeed a par 4. One thing about Riviera that I don't yet grasp is the elevation change that must exist but I don't see. The ninth plays straight up the hill which makes it a three shot hole for most if in the fairway and for everyone if not. The hole is nothing but pure hard. I embrace this because it was designed as such.
My first interaction with the ninth at Sand Hills was the view from Ben's Porch. I'm going to take a positive spin on this and say it was purposefully boring because Crenshaw did not need to reveal his hand before the player was on the course. I don't really understand the ease of the hole considering we had just finished two short birdie holes on 7 and 8. Ran mentions that the fairway has as many rolls and uneven lies as we will see the entire day, well and good, but the hole is so short with no green side hazards to matter. Its a perfectly fun hole even drivable by those with Wardian strength. I'm going to take the blame on this one and take the fall saying that I just don't get it. It must be a great hole, I wish I knew why.
Match play at the nines.
Riviera !!!
Sand Hills ?
Riviera goes 2 up at the turn and controls the ball after the half.
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Looks like Sand Hills will be 3 down after #10........
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Looks like Sand Hills will be 3 down after #10........
That's only because Barney knows he needs a big cushion after 10!
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Looks like Sand Hills will be 3 down after #10........
That's only because Barney knows he needs a big cushion after 10!
I couldn't agree more ;)
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I believed John when said he was doing this as we went, without prior thoughts on where the match would lead. Other must seem to think he's sand bagging us, but I don't.
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I believed John when said he was doing this as we went, without prior thoughts on where the match would lead. Other must seem to think he's sand bagging us, but I don't.
Thank you Adam and that is true. I was really hoping that Sand Hills would win the ninth but after reading up on both holes this morning it was not to be. Obviously I know who win the tenth and do hope Sand Hills can rally from there. One thing I can promise is that the outcome of the 18th will not be decided until game day.
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The other JK boldly takes the coveted 105th response spot. Top of the page.
I love the 9th hole at Riviera. Although it's uphill, it covers rather flat, featureless ground. Strategy is determined by staggered fairway bunkers. The green is perched above fairway grade, with a deep bunker fronting the right two-thirds of the green. The impressive clubhouse is directly behind the green. Great hole.
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/Hole9.jpg)
Similar to The JK, I find the 9th hole at Sand Hills to be a bit ordinary, but my main objection was always the lack of pin placements. The first couple times I played the course, the greens were very fast, perhaps 12.5 - 14 feet on the Stimpmeter. At that speed, there were very few places for the pin, a narrow strip down the right center of the green. Miss left and stopping the putt or chip was near impossible, especially for front pins. The front pin was so difficult, missing five yards short and right of the green was a legitimate strategy.
I believe that agronomic practices have changed somewhat, and greens are now maintained at a slower pace, perhaps 11-12 feet, making this green far more versatile. Very nice golf hole with lots of strategic considerations. But it faces tough competition at Riviera.
Riviera wins and goes 1 up.
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I believed John when said he was doing this as we went, without prior thoughts on where the match would lead. Other must seem to think he's sand bagging us, but I don't.
That thought never crossed my mind. My implication was that the holes on the back nine at SH are tough to beat. If SH was up at the turn it would be a runaway, at least in my mind.
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The front nine is complete and I have Riviera up 2 at the turn. The match as gone as such:
1. Riviera
2. Sand Hills
3. Draw
4. Riviera
5. Riviera
6. Riviera
7. Sand Hills
8. Sand Hills
9. Riviera
We are going to take a long lunch at the turn, I can't seem to get my Cobb Salad order straight, and return Monday the 14th with the back nine.
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I'll assume this means Monday the 17th, though February 14th happens to be a Monday.
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I'll assume this means Monday the 17th, though February 14th happens to be a Monday.
I can't wait to see who shows up at my office on February 14th. Damn computer calendar. This must be why the picture above the month was invented. Good catch on my error.
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Message to our resident Sand Hills expert: On Monday, I would enjoy to hear your thoughts and opinions on the 10th hole at Sand Hills. It's quite a complex hole, and though Riviera will probably win the hole-by-hole comparison, your 10th hole is magical as well.
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This isn't a fair fight because the 10th at Riviera is simply noted as one of the finest holes ever conceived in golf. And it is the location of the finest drive of my life, and perhaps the worst 12 foot uphill put I have ever witnessed. I went back and found my description as posted on January 9, 2007.
The 10th
I'm thrilled to see the pin on the tournament green in the front left center. I'm curious why my host says that we can hit some extra balls off of the tee. I don't think he saw history making in my swing from the previous nine holes. I'm thinking of all the times I have given people crap for stealing shots by hitting mulitiple balls and realize that without insulting my host I'm going to have to take one shot and live with it. We were alone on the tee as we waited for the group ahead to vacate the soon occupied green. A three club wind is at our backs taking lay up out of the question. My host, as pure a ball striker as he is generous, hits his typically beautiful ball of fine tajectory and flight which makes a bee line for the pin only to be struck dead by a slight fade on the end. His hole is done. My only swing thought is to make contact and see where it takes me. The ball starts out low and stays that way as it makes its way towards the right edge of the left front bunker. Our caddie begs for a fade as my ball disappears into a shadow on its historical treck. A sense of relief overcomes me as my host doesn't insist on me hitting another ball as it appears I have hit a shot adequate to get a feel for the hole. The excitement starts as we get what must have been 70 yds from the hole but felt like 700 when the caddie exclaims in a sense of wonderment that my ball is on the green near the hole. Instantly the weight of history starts the long climb from my legs through my hands up squarely onto my shoulders. I've got a chance to make two on the 10th at Riviera. My friends will love me, women will want to be me, children will drop rose peddles on my path home later in the week. I'm in LA and the world is mine. It is a simple twelve foot putt staight up the hill with a slight right to left break. The greens are rolling a receptive nine. Even the wind stops to watch. My host was kind enough to give me my putt for par.
I think it can be confirmed that I walked to the 11th tee with all the courage of a dictator at the gallows. Funny thing about when history presents its self to you and you fail to get what want but get what you need best. I don't know that I could have lived with myself if I had made that duece and I'm sure my friends couldn't have.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 06:08:25 AM by John Kavanaugh »
The above was captured from this interesting thread from a more innocent time: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27439.0.html
I really have nothing more to add about the tenth at Riviera.
The tenth at Sand Hills is a mystery to me. John Kirk implies above to a matter of greatness that I would like explained. I don't see much in Ran's review that has not become expected and delivered throughout every hole at Sand Hills. So that is that and since we all know that life is not fair, nor would we want it to be, here are the results.
Match play at the tens.
Riviera !??
Sand Hills !
Riviera wins the tenth going 3 up with 8 to play.
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I'm with John Kirk that the 10th at SH is not a throw away. The bunkers are pure genius in how they can look adjacent but are 200 yards apart. The terrain is better than the Riv but maybe thats why The Riv is heralded as one of the best short par 4's. It's basically on flat terrain.
A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?
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Adam,
I am sure it was you who pointed out to me how the 15th at Wild Horse is similar to the 10th at Riviera. Did you ever ask the boys why they felt the need to build a back tee at 342 yds? Do they acknowledge it is a template hole?
I agree with your flat land statement towards greatness which is why I admire the 6th at Riviera over any other par three in the world.
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A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?
Not according to Tom Doak or Melvyn Morrow! :D
I fully expect this match to come down to the 18th, though I fear Riviera may actually lose it before then!
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A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?
Not according to Tom Doak or Melvyn Morrow! :D
I fully expect this match to come down to the 18th, though I fear Riviera may actually lose it before then!
Alex, have you ever stood next to the Bogart tree? Beats any tree on the back nine at Sand Hills.
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My host, as pure a ball striker as he is generous, hits his typically beautiful ball of fine tajectory and flight which makes a bee line for the pin only to be struck dead by a slight fade on the end. His hole is done.
John, why was his hole done?
Does the kikuyu prevent a bump and run from over to the right?
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Bill,
It was a long time ago but I believe my host hit his drive just short of the green side bunker. If you are going to miss the 10th green at Riviera I believe that right just short of the bunker is death. Here is an excellent pictorial: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.0.html
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A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?
Not according to Tom Doak or Melvyn Morrow! :D
I fully expect this match to come down to the 18th, though I fear Riviera may actually lose it before then!
Alex, have you ever stood next to the Bogart tree? Beats any tree on the back nine at Sand Hills.
Haha. Very Good. indeed i have, but i will hold off on my predictions so this thread retains the suspense it deserves(?)
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I'm tempted to just close this match out to save me all this hard work. Just this weekend I had a conversation with our Priest, who drives the team bus, outside the gym where our JV team had just gotten killed by poor refereeing. At one point they shot 6 straight free throws on a double foul/technical foul combo. He thought the referees conspired against us when it was my opinion they were just incompetents. I guess growing up Catholic I should have remembered that stupidity is never a legitimate excuse for sin. That being said, I will continue through the mire of my own stupidity and let the cards play as they lie. The 12th is starting to concern me.
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Bill,
It was a long time ago but I believe my host hit his drive just short of the green side bunker. If you are going to miss the 10th green at Riviera I believe that right just short of the bunker is death. Here is an excellent pictorial: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.0.html
Death because you can't pitch onto the green and stop within 30 yards of the far edge? When I was there during the LA Open a couple of years ago, it looked like that would be similar to pitching down your driveway and trying to stop it short of the street. That's why I asked about the kikuyu preventing a bump shot.
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Adam,
I am sure it was you who pointed out to me how the 15th at Wild Horse is similar to the 10th at Riviera. Did you ever ask the boys why they felt the need to build a back tee at 342 yds? Do they acknowledge it is a template hole?
I agree with your flat land statement towards greatness which is why I admire the 6th at Riviera over any other par three in the world.
On this small point that I am able to comment, the 342 tee is there because it is not beyond anyone who can normally hit a drive 280 or so, to be able to drive to the ideal spot in the left throat of the green at Wild Horse in the prevailing wind conditions at ones back on that tee. I am a normally decent driver of the ball at about 225-35, and have been in the throat area almost pin high from the 300 tees. I know plenty of guys from this forum that can make the back tee shot to somewhere in the pin high to the left area with a 3 wood from the back tees. So, I doubt that the Riv generally has the prevalent helping wind that WH has.
As to the comparison, the obvious aspect is the array of bunker at the Riv makes a wider arc of possibilities. The bunkering at WH does similar dispersal of options, but on a narrower arc or field of play.
I also can't say since I never played the Riv, but it seemed to me that folks giving an easy tip of the hat to the Riv's 9th, didn't seem quite right to me... Just because it is a long par 4 and takes most 3 shots to get on the green, doesn't seem to me to be the proper standard. The bunkering array at the Riv is obviously a set of strategic placements, but aren't they demanding in offering few placement options, sort of a tic tack one place to hit the shot. SH has the very wide FW with two distinct sides of a deep chasm of a gathering depression with a steep semi to blind shot to the green on the left side, and a flatter yet slightly rolling area on the right that is harder to hold without going into the wooga with the added challenge that the prevailing wind pushes usually to the right but offers yet an easier green approach. I wonder how many GIR by comparison there are by decent players of low to 12 handicaps at both courses 9ths? The greater terrain contour and approach variations, while bunkerless, are more deft of touch, it seems to me at SH. Again, saying this having never played shots to Riv's 9th... I wonder how many folks familiar with play on both over multiple rounds would not think the 9ths more of a draw?
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Bill,
The bump and run is not possible from the right because the bunker is between the green and your errant drive. You must stay left as outlined on Jeff's excellent thread. I believe the fact that I drove the green proves that the kikuyu allows the ball to run with properly applied top spin.
Dick,
I think the bunkering, both fairway and green side, is what makes the 9th at Riviera. Knowing that the 10th would be won by Riviera I tried as hard as I could to give the 9th to Sand Hills. I just find it to be a very weak hole given where it sits in the round. Like I said in my comparison I think Crenshaw made it look boring to the eye from Ben's porch for artistic merit. That works, but really, why not more of a test after 7 and 8?
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Hi Dick,
The 9th at Riviera is a very attractive hole, with a sloped, irregular green. The walk from tee to green is fabulous. I'll stick with my choice here.
On to #10!
First, my experience at Riviera's 10th hole. Two rounds yielded the following memorable results. On a calm day, I made 3 the conservative way. A solid 4-wood to the left edge of the green, followed by a 78 yard sand wedge to 3 feet. I made the putt.
On another day after that, the heavy following wind was in play, and I decided to go for it. In order to attempt hitting a long drive, I try to make my body bigger to take a larger swing. Standing tall and further from the ball, I made the big swing and connected. A 1-in-100 shot. The ball went high and far, the ball visibly pushed downwind. The pin was a bit left of center; my ball was traveling a couple yards right of the flag when it hit the very top of the greenside bunker and rolled back onto a flatter portion of the sand. I made an excellent sand shot, aiming well left of the pin and hitting a soft flop-up that stayed on the green, about 20 feet away.
After an excellent first putt, I made an 8 footer for par, and walked away thinking this is the greatest shit ever. Ever.
Had I carried the bunker, I would have left myself a pitch shot from a few yards beyond the green, from where birdie is about a 25/75 proposition.
One of my strong sentiments about Sand Hills, which Adam just mentioned, is the sense the bunkers are randomly placed on the course. They look so natural and so irregular, compared to other golf courses. Of course, the positioning is precise, but it doesn't feel that way. They seem divinely sited.
The 10th hole is a great example. The fairway is wide, with a big swale in the right half. There are bunkers out there to navigate. It's hard to tell where the best line is. The entire hole slopes from the left side to the right. Attack the left side, and you'll have a chance to see the green, but a long drive down the right will leave a shorter, but often blind, approach. Bunkers are more an issue down the left side.
It's a long par 4 hole, especially from the back tees. Typical approach shots range from 150 to 220 yards. The green is large with a large, short grass area left and long that collects balls back towards the green. The green and short grass chipping areas are gently sloped; a straight shot into the slope will not always feed down onto the green, but faded shots will be rewarded.
What's so great about all this is the regularity in which long approach putts and chips are experienced. The slopes are pretty gentle, but 20-40 yard third shots are common, with gentle, predictable break. The short game shots around this hole are fantastic, a great hole to watch your friends play their shots around the green.
Riviera wins this hole to go 2 up, but the 10th at Sand Hills is an outstanding hole with a special greensite..
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I suppose it is common to think the weakness at Riviera lays in their par 5's. I thought the same thing even before this match started and I thought 9 was a par 5. My recollection of the 11th at Riviera was that the barranca was up by the green because I remember having trouble getting across in my second shot. Geoff's book, as the pictures verify, says it is only 360 yds from the back tee. It does run at an angle and it is dry, but I sit here today amazed that I have had such trouble, and am not alone, getting two shots 400 yds down the fairway of a straight par 5. I suppose the trees make it difficult, I supposed it is my own lack of skill, but the barranca makes the hole and a fine one it is.
I readily admit that I love the 11th at Sand Hills because it is the only hole that is not an obvious driver, but still a driver for those of superior skill. As I have said before, we played the course blind with no caddie or anyone who had previously played the course in our group. Guess who tried to cut the corner, yea, the same guy who lost his ball and did not finish the hole the first time around. Once I understood the options, the layup is quite fun given the reverse camber of the fairway. Sand Hills needed this hole, it is now one of my favorites on the course.
Match play at the 11th's
Riviera !
Sand Hills ?
Sand Hills wins to give hope at only 2 down with 7 to go.
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The 11th hole at Riviera would be plain without the well positioned ditch. I like that the grass is kept short enough so the ball can be usually be found and played out of this hazard. Good hole.
The 11th at Sand Hills is very nice for all the reasons that John mentions. In the past, I've had a bit of an issue with the skyline second shot, because it's very difficult to know where the flag is on the green. For those who haven't played there, the second shot is steeply uphill, and it takes a keen eye, or perhaps lots of experience, to deduce where the flag is, front to back and left to right.
Sand Hills wins the 11th. Riviera is 1 up.
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Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?
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Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?
Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out.
I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely.
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John, They have added several back tees to WH over the years. The next time I talk to Dan or Dave or Josh, I'll ask about the 15th.
As Dick points out, 342 is not that long considering elevation and wind. If I'm not mistaken, on my first visit there, our own Brad Swanson almost drove the green from that tee.
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Looking forward to what you have to say the rest of the way, especially to your thoughts on #12.
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Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?
Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out.
I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely.
Tim,
The fourth reason is because I think Riviera smells better than Sand Hills. Riviera after a rain is the finest smelling living thing I have ever wafted. It may take me a year to get through all 18 reasons, so there is a taste of things to come.
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Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?
Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out.
I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely.
Tim,
The fourth reason is because I think Riviera smells better than Sand Hills. Riviera after a rain is the finest smelling living thing I have ever wafted. It may take me a year to get through all 18 reasons, so there is a taste of things to come.
Hey I am just glad to know I was keeping up correctly and that this entire thread combined is only getting at supporting material for reasons #2 and #3. I think some people had lost sight of the fact that this was actually a dream within a dream.
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Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?
Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out.
I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely.
Tim,
The fourth reason is because I think Riviera smells better than Sand Hills. Riviera after a rain is the finest smelling living thing I have ever wafted. It may take me a year to get through all 18 reasons, so there is a taste of things to come.
That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.
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That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.
Yeah, indebted. They were brought to California as a timber tree. Instead, they are the messiest weed in the state.
They smell good, though.
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That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.
Yeah, indebted. They were brought to California as a timber tree. Instead, they are the messiest weed in the state.
They smell good, though.
You are correct about the "eucs." We have the railroads to thank.
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I had no idea the 12th at Riviera had gone through so many changes in length over its history. Lengthened to 440 yds for the 29 L.A. Open and then back down to 410 yds at the publishing of Geoff's book. I could have sworn my host pointed to a 480 yd tee that I do not believe is used for the current tour stop. Even at that the day I played the course from the tips the hole is a par 4 that can not be reached under any circumstance in two by me. Now the day I played from the member tees it was a delight with an 8 iron approach. The beauty of the hole lies at the green with a historical and strategic tree, a deep and strategic bunker, a strategic barranca and a devilish deceptive green. Each of the above make the hole a perfect test of driving ability given the organizer of your round can choose a distance best set to test the skills of the day.
You gotta also love a tree in play that is fortunate enough to have a great name. This is the Bogey tree, perhaps on some day when we are not starting threads about farts on backswings and what cars we drive a thread about great named trees will appear. The Bogey tree is at the top of the list. See this is my problem, last week I hate the list threads and then here you go.
It was not my intention when I started this thread to give the haters ammunition supporting my stupidity. I look at the 12th at Sand Hills and see a great piece of land for golf connecting two other fine holes. The genius of this hole may lay at the hands of the architect but perhaps only because of what they didn't do. Sure I enjoy a blind shot where you can throw the ball up high left with a fade and let the ball trickle down the the hole, who doesn't. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Sorry dozed off there for a minute. Yea, the land is great but I knew that 4 miles north of North Platte.
Match Play at the 12elves.
Riviera !!!
Sand Hills !
Riviera wins the 12th to go 3 up with 6 to play.
note: If I could start over I would fudge this to only 2 up so I didn't lay awake at night wondering how to keep this interesting.
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That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.
Yeah, indebted. They were brought to California as a timber tree. Instead, they are the messiest weed in the state.
They smell good, though.
You are correct about the "eucs." We have the railroads to thank.
In Northern California they seem to have all been planted as windbreaks.
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I diverge from JK's (Barney)assessment. The 12th at SH is the Bottle hole, isn't it? If it is the one i'm thinking of, it has great fairway undulations.Making it the one hole in Mullen that closely resembles anything in Holyoke. The green site at SH is top notch with the front right bunker cutting into the front of the green. Bailing left is no cake walk. Now,if this hole I'm recalling is not the 12th at SH, I say the match is a tie, because in all truthfulness, I don't recall the 12th at The Riv. I'm thinking it's the one along side the west end of the property. Mounds on the right with a green that slopes to the left. Is it? How about a Pic?
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I find myself influenced by the JK's assessment of the 12th holes. I was going to award this to Sand Hills, but am now recosnidering.
1. The 12th hole at Riviera does have a fine greensite, plus a beautifully situated sycamore tree, perfect for the uber cool mega-star who sihes to to hang out and sip whiskey from his favorite flask.
2. Both 12th holes feature a swale short of the green. Riviera's swale requires a greater carry distance to reach the green, which is very steeply sloped from back right to short right.
3. The driving requirements are interesting here. The 12th hole at Riviera is a dogleg right with ground that slopes left, which strongly encourages a fade. The 12th fairway at Sand Hills is wide and complex, with a large swale about 60-120 yards short of the center of the green. At Sand Hills, the percentage play is to lay up short of the swale to avoid uphill or downhill lies on the second shot.
4. The 12th green at Sand Hills is very gentle. The right greenside bunker is enormous, and a thing of great beauty. Gene Greco once mentioned that he and Neil Regan spent a little time around the green, and decided that some putts were unreadable, the breaks being so subtle and nuanced. Is that a good thing?
5. The 12th hole at Riviera is quite tough, while the 12th at Sand Hills is perhaps the easiest hole on the back nine.
6. Neither 12th hole was among the memorable holes on the course, so I looked at some pictures of each to familiarize myself with the subjects.
The uphill approach at Sand Hills #11:
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o65/soylent10/sand_hills/hole11/P1010799.jpg)
Just one of eighteen beautiful holes, the subtle 12th green and surrounds at Sand Hills:
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o65/soylent10/sand_hills/hole12/P1010706.jpg)
I would have posted a hole layout of Riviera #12 from the website, but can't remember my photobucket password.
Gee, tough call. What's more important? Two tough shots, faded tee shot demanded, to a tough little green, or wide, with lots of options off the tee, to a very flat greensite with miniscule breaks?
I changed my mind. Sand Hills #12 is better.
All square.
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I'll try to fix the sizing issue with the Sand Hills pictures.
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John,
Thanks for the pic of the 12th green at Sand Hills, I am now reminded of the clever front bunker, my ZZZZZZZZZZ's were unwarranted. I don't know why but your pic seems to remind me of an awkward point in the routing. Is there a slight back track to get to 13?
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You walk right off the green, and the primary 13th tee is close by, maybe a 185 yard tee. The back tee is more like 220, but requires a little walk up the hill. I think there's a bathroom out there. I wuld not characterize the walk as awkward.
I think this is the area of the course where Bill and Ben asked Mr. Youngscap if he could buy another small parcel to finish off the course properly. Maybe that's the 14th green.
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Here are a couple of pictures of the 12th green at Riviera:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/Riv_12B.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/Riv_12C.jpg)
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Reason # 5 is that Riviera is an easier walk than Sand Hills. I would even hazard a guess that a larger percentage of golfers walk at Riviera.
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Reason #6. Riviera has a members only parking lot.
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By the way, I changed my mind. Sand Hills wins #12 and the match is all square. For me, that is.
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By the way, I changed my mind. Sand Hills wins #12 and the match is all square. For me, that is.
Well, well, well, I thought we all learned along time ago to go with our first instinct. There is not a hole played so far that I couldn't change my mind on given the right mood. Do you have a copy of Geoff's book? If not I would highly recommend it as I have refrained from copying many of his thoughts verbatim so as not to distimulate sales.
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Congratulations for being the first person to ever use the word "disstimulate" in a sentence. Not even the Urban Dictionary could use it:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disstimulate
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Geoff's book can be purchased though his site as found on this link: http://www.geoffshackelford.com/books/ I collect golf histories and this is the finest I have ever read. If anyone thinks the book is too expensive just send me a copy of your receipt and I will mail you a crisp twenty dollar bill to offset the expense. It is the least I can do considering my copy was a gift.
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I wonder if a certain cachet or celebrity hollywood image lends some weight in evaluation of these holes, and sense of place in general. The old hollywood nature and history of the Riv is unmistakable when one is on the property. It ooozes of all that is iconic in our imaginations as a place of glamour and a golden era. It is surrounded on high by that image we all conjure up of what Hollywood must have been like, when the most popular stars of both film and entertainment are out to play, then and now. Not to mention the tournament history. So, when we talk about a Bogart tree, it adds to the image. How could it not. And, going back to the tee view on 9, that is truly an iconic image of the California Spanish influenced, all Hollywood style club house.
Does any of that play into one's evaluation of a hole in particular, or add to its total status as a golf course in a very special place with a very special style?
Sand Hills evokes a certain emotion as well. To me it evokes the allure of leaving it all behind. It is the journey into the frontier and back to a vast natural environment that we just don't see in our daily lives, unless you ARE a Sand Hills resident, and possibly a rancher. Even the clubhouse, while very comfortable along with the cabins, is completely understated and quietly classy. It is like your own entry into the film, City Slickers, if you are from the cities, where you can go to recreate in seclusion with just your golf buddies while enjoying quality f&b and sleep well. While you might bump into a well known person at SH, it isn't so likely, nor notable.
Riviera is the opposite. When you come onto that property it isn't like Sand Hills where you left it all behind, it is the feeling that YOU HAVE ARRIVED! You are not only in one film about getting away from it all, you are in a place where (figuratively) EVERY FILM is made, where your movie star and celebrity personalities go to recreate, and have been doing so from its begining. You are completely aware of it as a visitor, and I'm guessing even members might be somewhat star struck by their fellow members in a certain way.
SH has Ben's Porch and 'Old Tom's' burgers (rip). Well, that is all well and good for we who revere what Ben means to the game, and Tom's connection with you and what was somehow his representation to what was in the old cowboy rancher days. But com'mon man... SH has nothing comparable to the legend and lore of a Bogart's tree.
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Congratulations for being the first person to ever use the word "disstimulate" in a sentence. Not even the Urban Dictionary could use it:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disstimulate
For the record, John used the word "distimulate."
Not that that makes a difference!
Here's what synonym.com says:
"Antonym of stimulate
Antonyms of verb stimulate
2 of 7 senses of stimulate
Sense 1:
stimulate, excite
Antonym of stifle (Sense 2)
=>stifle, dampen
Sense 4:
stimulate, arouse, brace, energize, energize, perk up
Antonym of sedate (Sense 1)
=>sedate, calm, tranquilize, tranquillize, tranquillize"
I'm going for "stifle."
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Old Tom sure put a lot of pepper on those burgers.
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Riviera wins the 12th to go 3 up with 6 to play.
note: If I could start over I would fudge this to only 2 up so I didn't lay awake at night wondering how to keep this interesting.
I don't think you have much to worry about keeping things interesting. I think Sand Hills will do just fine with what it has left to offer.
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Holes 14-18 at Riviera aren't exactly chopped liver, and the 13th at Sand Hills is prohibitively difficult.
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I don't know much about Riviera other than what I've seen on TV, so I'll leave the discussion on those holes to those who have played them.
I won't get ahead of the discussion so I'll leave my thoughts on the remaining holes at Sand Hills for the appropriate time and place. They are about as good as any 6-hole stretch that can be named.
I meant no disrespect with my comment, but I do feel it would be difficult for Sand Hills to LOSE any of the remaining holes. A push maybe, but not a loss.
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"Perhaps no hole, either in its pre-flood days or in the present form, requires more power, accuracy or mental strength than No. 13."
I didn't know Sand Hills had a flood, oh, that quote is from Geoff's book about Riviera but could describe the difficulty of the par 3, 13th at Sand Hills.
Man, am I in a pickle here but will plow ahead without regard to the outcome of the match.
What I enjoy most about the 13th at Riviera is the drive because it demands a draw after the golfer has become comfortable hitting fades. Geoff compares the this hole to the 13th at Pine Valley, I haven't played Pine Valley.
The 13th at Sand Hills is one of my favorite templates, a long very difficult par 3. Ran compares it to the 5th at Pine Valley, I haven't played at Pine Valley.
Match Play at the 13eens.
Riviera !
Sand Hills !
Until I play Pine Valley this hole is a draw and unless that is before the conclusion of the competition the result will stand.
Riviera is 3 up with 5 to play.
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Scott,
I sure hope I didn't sound like I felt disrespected. It wasn't my intent to be aggressive.
I don't have a lot to say about either 13th hole. I think Riviera's 13th is one of its less intriguing holes. I like the demands for a right to left tee shot, right after the opposite demand of the 12th hole. Although some folks will never give credit to additions made outside the scope of the original design, I like the new back left pin placement, right next to the deep swale. The tree-lined fairway is not especially attractive.
For me, the 13th at Sand Hills, though beautiful, is just too hard. Trying to hit a long iron or fairway wood up to that little shelf of a green is demoralizing. Miss, short, and the ball falls back to a steeply uphill lie well below the green. The common miss is to overswing and pull it way left into the native grass. You will often see balls pin high but 30-40 yards left of the green. Fortunately, the grass is sparse enough to find your ball 90% of the time and recover, which is very important.
I suppose one's impression of the holes depends on what you like. Riviera's 13th is a solid parkland hole. Sand Hills 13th is unique and beautiful, but do I really like the backbreaker par 3, where par seems to be a 20-30% proposition?
Since I gave Sand Hills the 12th on a close call, I go with John Kavanaugh's call as a draw.
Draw. The match is all even. Oh, the excitement!
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This is a simple comparison, thankfully so, as I would hate to see this match go dormie with the 15th coming up next.
The 14th at Riviera is a fine little hole perhaps best well known for holes in one. It's got a fine green, it may even cause a novice to over club on the upcoming 16th because it is in the opposite direction. Points for that. It takes more than just another fine hole to compete in this match.
The 14th at Sand Hills is the perfect example of a half par hole, so half par that I am not sure what is on the card. This is more of what I would have liked to have seen at the ninth, if it is a par 4. All I have to go on is Ran's review as I don't have a real strong memory of the hole, but I am sure it is the type I could play over and again.
Match Play at the 14.
Riviera .
Sand Hills !
Sand Hills wins the hole moving to 2 down with 4 to go. I'm glad I have all weekend to think about the 15th.
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There's so much to offer at the 14th at Sand Hills that I'm a bit shocked that the hole didn't stand out more for you. It may be the best par five that I've ever played. The hole changes so dramatically with the ever changing winds. I am a big fan of the "shorter" par five, even more so when there is another longer one somewhere during the round. The small, angled green makes hitting it in two a difficult proposition. Miss short, long or right and good luck getting it up and in. It could very easily require twice as many shots to cover the last 10 or 20 yards as it did to cover the first 500.
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John Kirk, As a point of clarification, Mr. Youngscap did not have to buy extra ground to fit in the 14th green site. Since it was a 3000 acre parcel, all they had to do was go gerrymander the lines at the courthouse.
One of my great moments at SH was not playing, it was sitting on the porch with Dick, listening to him answer my question about this exact point. He regaled me with the entire story of SH's creation involving Bill and Ben. And how it almost didn't get built.
The inflection of his voice, and look on his face, when he said "He puttered over there, then he puttered over there, then over that way, then he climbed a fence, HE CLIMBED A FENCE".
In these parts, fences are respected. If you shoot a bird and it lands on the other side of a fence, you need the land owners permission to retrieve it.
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I like the 14th at Riviera. I would call the 14th green a "Gull Wing" design, like a sea bird with two wings slightly above the torso. Nice pin positions, fun putts, what's not to like? Really good golf hole. Another example of this Gull Wing green design is the 12th green at Los Angeles CC - North course.
I made an eagle 3 at Sand Hills #14 once. Playing 10-15 mph downwind, I hit driver down the speed slot into the huge swale which dominates the left side of the fairway. 9-iron from 145 yards right over the flag, 3 feet above the hole. The most delicate putt imaginable; oooooo...made it!
Going for the green in two sometimes leaves a bunker shot from the right greenside bunker. Also a very enjoyable shot.
I think some people would consider the 14th at Sand Hills one of the finest short par 5s in golf. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Doak sees this as a !! hole.
Finally, one drawback of this type of comparison is the difficulty a par 3 hole has competing with a par 4 or 5 hole.
Sand Hills wins the battle of the fourteenths. Sand Hills is 1 up with 4 to go.
The next few will make for tough comparisons. No indifferent holes remain.
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I think that if I had known the 14th was a par 5 it would have been more memorable.
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Congratulations for being the first person to ever use the word "disstimulate" in a sentence. Not even the Urban Dictionary could use it:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disstimulate
I am happy to report that my good friend Gillette Silver has submitted distimulate to www.urbandictionary.com and it is now published.
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I think RJ Daley's point on history is interesting. I think that I may be influenced because of Hogan's history at Riviera. As a big Hogan fan it must influence me (as it does with Colonial). I am not sure on actors and musicians. It doesn't influence me when I think of Sherwood. And I love Lakeside actors or not.
John,
Maybe it is too early in the morning for me but I didn't understand your post on the 14th at Riv causing one to overclub on 16. Thanks.
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Jim,
I thought the elevation change at Riviera is so subtle the novice player may not realize one is uphill and the other down.
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John,
Makes sense now.
BTW, great thread, 2 amazing courses!! You have really made me think about each a lot more, I can't say I ever thought about these two in a head to head "match". Difficult but brilliant. Great job.
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Thanks, I'm worried about tomorrow. The 15th at Riviera is so strong and I hate to see the match go Dormie.
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I hear you................. there are "issues" there though. How they influence your call will be interesting. Great Drama!! Thanks
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I've never been to Riviera, but 16-18 is easily my favorite three hole stretch at Sand Hills. [And I made some horrific numbers on 17 and 18 over the course of three rounds there!] They also represent my favorite par 3, 4 and 5 on the gc, when considering 7 & 8 as half pars.
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This is the day I have worried about for over a month now. Riviera gets to play its ace in hole, the formidable 15th. I will start with an exact copy of Ran's entire review of the Sand Hills 15th below:
"Fifteenth hole, 470 yards; The 15th tee is the furthermost point to Ben’s Porch on the back side and a genuine roller coaster ride remains: the uphill climb at the 15th, the wild downhill ride at the 16th, the short 17th, and then the final march uphill at the 18th.Coore & Crenshaw lent thisthrilling landscapeits golfing qualities, in this case by digging out a pit bunker thirty yards shy of the green and using that fill tocreate another unique green complex,in this case a dome shaped green featuring a back to front tilt. The surrounding area of the green is kept tightly mown, with many a delicate chip shots to be had."
Is Ran saying this green is not a natural site? I don't know and would not have guessed by my few visits to the green. Is this also the hole with the thin section of rough separating it from the adjacent fairway, cause if so, I would have enjoyed if the fairways had been conjoined.
From Geoff's book, please find the following quote from Tom Doak concerning the 15th at Riviera:
"At 443 yds, and playing into the prevailing winds up the valley to boot, the Fifteenth is the strongest par 4 at Riviera, and one of the strongest in the land. From tee to green it is straightforward and honest. A long straight drive is paramount to thread the gap between the eucalyptus trees. A drive with a hint of cut is ideal, to get past the fairway bunker on the the right; but to go for such placement entails considerable risk, since there is no reaching the green from the bunker 200 yds distant, and if the drive is lost to the right the approach will be blocked by trees."
Doak continues, "The key feature of the hole is its green, which is the largest and the most heavily contoured at Riviera."
My memory centers more around the green than the difficulty of the hole. Some call it Gullwing but I think of Banana. It's a green that I think every modern architect lucky enough to have visited will use as a template for their designs. From C&C to Pete Dye I think we have all seen it before, but never quite the same.
Match play at the 15th.
Riviera !!?
Sand Hills ?
The match is dormie with Riviera 3 up with 3 to go.
Note: Obviously, even given the greatness of Riviera's 16th, this match is going into the 18th with Sand Hills down one with one to play. I love the 18th at both courses but am leaning towards the 18th at Riviera simply because the requirements of the drive. Personally I am pulling for the 18th at Sand Hills to win the hole bringing the match to a draw. Playoff optional.
Please feel free to make your arguments for the 18th at Sand Hills before game time, which is scheduled for the morning of the 27th.
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2106.jpg?t=1295884084)
Look at that walk through!
Some have mentioned the solitude of sitting behind the second green and staring off into the sand hills skyline. For me it was always when reaching the 15th green that I had my moment(s) of solitude. I think of this spot most when recalling those days last summer at SHGC.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2096.jpg?t=1295884521)
EDIT: Oops! That is indeed the 4th hole in the first pic. Thanks, Chris.
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JK - 15 at SHGC is possibly the best hole there. An uphill, 470 yard 4 par with a diabolical green, 1/2 of which is hidden? Along with 2 and 4, the easiest bogey (or more) on the course. A tie at the least and an easy SHGC win for me.
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JK - 15 at SHGC is possibly the best hole there. An uphill, 470 yard 4 par with a diabolical green, 1/2 of which is hidden? Along with 2 and 4, the easiest bogey (or more) on the course. A tie at the least and an easy SHGC win for me.
Eric - the walk through is stellar but the hole pictured is the 4th - even JK must swing that hard to get it in play!
Wow. I can see where an uphill blind second shot would be exciting for a member. Any idea why the fairways are not conjoined? Is it just me, or does something on the 15th that makes a guy want to go right?
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Does anybody have a picture of Riviera's 15th green? I remember that it is high on the left, but I couldn't remember if it had a swale in the middle, like a sideways Biarritz green, or if it was a sideways two tier green. Does it have a high back right pin?
also need help about the 15th at Sand Hills. Can anybody share some playing anecdotes abot playing the hole, something memorable and fun?
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I don't think it is just you JK. I've played SH 14 and 15 from the rough on the right way more often than I've had second shots from the FW! If you are slicing or just pushing your tee ball, you aren't going to be a happy camper playing these two holes. Once I played morning round hitting right rough on 14 and got through 15 in FW only because I flubbed a tee ball on 15 up the left short off tee and tick tacked to green"area" in 2 more. Then stayed on FW in afternoon on 14 only to hit big slice in rough off tee on 15. Another round on another visit, I was in the slice-push rough on the successive holes in same round! It was also at that time I though... I sure wish these holes were like Wild Horse 2 and 3 with conjoined fairways...
But now you are coming to the part of your matchplay where I think these sort of matchplay exercises don't do the process justice when you are looking at a fair comparison between two great golf courses. The successive match between the juxtaposed 16 Riv par 3 to SH 16 par 5 and repeat and reverse the juxtapose in a par 5 Riv, and par 3 SH on their 17ths. At least you have fair comparison on par 4 strong 18th closers. But, these are so important in evaluating the merits of the two courses, I don't see why you don't just go with switching the order and making comparisons of the two par 3s and 5s remaining head to head as to their pars rather than order in the routing...
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I don't see where 17th at Sand Hills is a slam dunk over the 17th at Riviera. I don't see that at all. The 17th at Sand Hills is eminently photogenic, but so hard to play.
The tee ball on Sand Hills #15 often gets pushed right because the penalty for going left is a blind shot at best, and a native nightmare at worst. Can you play the ball out toward the 14th fairway here? Isn't the native sort of sparse between the two fairways? Pretty good golf hole. More complex than the 15th at Riviera, more possibilities. Both have big sexy greens.
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Here is T shot 15th, spring early rough growth. You can see the narrowness between 14-15.
(http://www.theitinerantgolfer.com/upImg/69367854.JPG)
For a reference to some of the best course photos in golf for purposes of discussion, it is hard to find a better site than:
http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Pages/usa.html (http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Pages/usa.html)
The problem there is you have to scroll through the many photos that aren't labeled for hole nor described as from where in FWs they are shot. The Sand Hill link is very good.
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I have Sand Hills 1 up after 14 holes.
My memory of each hole is sketchy. The long iron or fairway wood shot into each hole is very enjoyable. Both have big targets, though the front right bunker at Riviera's 15th green guards the right side of the green too well for my game, so I will almost always be chipping down to the pin from the left rough.
I'm going to go with Sand Hills here. In comparison to Riviera's 15th, I think that the Sand Hills hole is multi-dimensional, with far more possible results. I think it would be easier to make a 3 there, and easier to make a 7. If you played each hole 100 times, you would experience far greater variety in the nature of your experiences at Sand Hills, and the quality of the shots at Sand Hills is not significantly less or greater than the quality of shots at Riviera #15.
Sand Hills wins, and goes 2 up with 3 to go. Oh shit, how am I going to manipulate this to make it exciting?
To preview, I see Sand Hills winning 16, Riviera winning 17, and Sand Hills winning 18. Wait a minute; I've figured it out. I'll make 16 a draw.
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Does anybody have a picture of Riviera's 15th green? I remember that it is high on the left, but I couldn't remember if it had a swale in the middle, like a sideways Biarritz green, or if it was a sideways two tier green. Does it have a high back right pin?
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/riviera/riv15g.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/riviera/riv15g2.jpg)
There is a high back right hole location - probably about the same height as front left.
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Thanks, John. It sure is a nice golf hole.
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Thanks, John. It sure is a nice golf hole.
John, I am shocked you can see the pic Mayhugh posted and not change your vote as you did on 12. Coore and Crenshaw have a career to thank for from that green. But it is your match and I respect your opinion.
I will continue on with the 16th tomorrow. I just showed my hand so people could know this match is not over just because it is dormie. As a matter of fact I have decided it will not end in a tie and will go to extra holes if necessary. What do you think, sudden death or a four hole playoff?
Both courses are so great any hole can win on any given day so previous outcomes are not a lock to repeat. But I am getting tired of this.
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John Kirk:
Another pic of 15 green at Riv that shows the height of the back portion compared to the front:
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7426/pa240490.jpg)
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Thanks, John. It sure is a nice golf hole.
I really liked it. Since I haven't played Sand Hills, I cannot argue with any of Kavanaugh's selections. I'm just pleased to see how much you guys like Riviera.
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Thanks, John. It sure is a nice golf hole.
I really liked it. Since I haven't played Sand Hills, I cannot argue with any of Kavanaugh's selections. I'm just pleased to see how much you guys like Riviera.
Mayhugh hasn't played Sand Hills. There is a God.
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Another view of Sand Hills 15 and 14, looking over the 14th green.. I do think playing 15 via the 14th fairway can be a good choice.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/nregan/sh%202005%20v2/sandhills2005050626_08214th15thv2FR.jpg)
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John Kirk:
Another pic of 15 green at Riv that shows the height of the back portion compared to the front:
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7426/pa240490.jpg)
Scott
Do you have more pix showing the entire hole?
Ciao
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I do have a couple more, I think, Sean, but they're on a store drive at home. I'll see what I have when I get back to base tomorrow night.
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Another view of Sand Hills 15 and 14, looking over the 14th green.. I do think playing 15 via the 14th fairway can be a good choice.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/nregan/sh%202005%20v2/sandhills2005050626_08214th15thv2FR.jpg)
So maybe your block wide right into the 14th fairway was intentional after all? If I remember correctly you made par from over there...
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JK,
Thanks for your insight on this thread. I haven't played Riviera, but it has made me much more interested in watching the upcoming tournament there. Unfortunately much of the architecture is missed by viewing it that way.
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I was tempted to give in and flipity flop the 16th and 17th holes so we could match par 3's against par 5's, but to no avail as it is too late to change the rules. Interesting though to see both courses ending right, triangle that is.
The 16th at Sand Hills is as perfect a par 5 as I have ever played. I refer you to Ran's write up as I have little to add.
The 16th at Riviera is another fine par three built on average land. A tiny green and artistic bunkering leads to an interesting breather of a hole that may just take your breath away with a punch to the gut.
Look, maybe I mailed this one in but I got an auditor standing in my door and snow outside my window. Arg.
Match play at the 16eens.
Riviera ?
Sand Hills ?!?
Sand Hills is 2 down with two to go. Love the three forms of II.
Please, before Thursday make your argument for the 18th at Sand Hills. I have decided that in match play sudden death is the only option if the match finishes in a draw.
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Maybe Neil can post some of his pictures of the 18th hole at Sand Hills. It's a perfect ending to a great day. I love the tee shot as it must hug the HUGE blowout to gain the most advantageous play for the second shot. If you play too carefully away from it the second shot becomes much longer. The green is a nasty one, with its tilt and speed. I can't add too much to what has already been said over and over, but to me it's a wonderful hole.
Of course Riviera has the history and magnificent clubhouse view. But is it a better hole? I'll leave that up to those who have played both.
As for the option if you end in a draw, how about comparing the 3s, 4s and 5s collectively against one another? That would be interesting.
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Flipping 16 and 17 would be the right thing to do, but is contrary to the rest of the exercise.
I gotta go (golfing, walking Stone Eagle today!!). I need to call this a draw in order to continue the match, but I don't think it's going to go that way.
I'll finish up in a few hours, but tentatively, expect that Sand Hills #16 will win and close out Riviera 3 and 2.
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Scott,
One thing you will never see on TV is how the trees on the right side of the 18th of Riviera come into play. Which brings me to the 7th reason I prefer Riviera over Sand Hills. Riviera is on TV every year with all the best golfers, short of one, in the world. Remember Nicklaus or Tiger neither one ever won there.
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2136.jpg?t=1295973459)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2137-1.jpg?t=1295973579)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2139-1.jpg?t=1295973735)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2141-1.jpg?t=1295973817)
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Some shots of the 18th at Sand Hills:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18A.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18S.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18B.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18D.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18F.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18G.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18J.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18K.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18L.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18Z2.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/18M.jpg)
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Matt -
What is the small white stake in the sixth photo?
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Matt -
What is the small white stake in the sixth photo?
Good question - it's certainly not an OB stake...perhaps it's a "no carts allowed past here" stake? Thankfully, I was able to avoid that nasty bunker in all of my six rounds at SH last year so I wasn't in that area very often!
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Scott,
One thing you will never see on TV is how the trees on the right side of the 18th of Riviera come into play. Which brings me to the 7th reason I prefer Riviera over Sand Hills. Riviera is on TV every year with all the best golfers, short of one, in the world. Remember Nicklaus or Tiger neither one ever won there.
John,
Is this what you're talking about?
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/Riv_18L.jpg)
I'd end up making a double from that position so I know exactly what you're talking about!
Here are a few more photos of the 18th at Riviera:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/Riv_18K.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/Riv_18M.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/Riv_18F.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/Riv_18RoomView-1.jpg)
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Matt B,
Am I to assume from the pics you hit the fairway off the tee, blocked your second straight right into the trees and made double?
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I took this picture of the 16th green the last time I played there, thanks to my wonderful host BG. I'm very fond of this photo, because it shows the beauty and subtlety of the Sand Hills design. That little 2 foot ridge/mound in front of the green guards that right pin position beautifully. And look at how the designer gave the big hitter plenty of room right to bail right and attack that pin without having to deal with the mound. Not only that, see how the left side of the green matches the dune slope perfectly.
Sand Hills wins 3 ad 2, becaue no matter how pretty the 16th hole at Riviera is, a 165 yard hole with a 2500 square foot green can't compete with a great par 5 such as Sand Hills #16.
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/SandHills16thgreen.jpg)
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I took this picture of the 16th green the last time I played there, thanks to my wonderful host BG. I'm very fond of this photo, because it shows the beauty and subtlety of the Sand Hills design. That little 2 foot ridge/mound in front of the green guards that right pin position beautifully. And look at how the designer gave the big hitter plenty of room right to bail right and attack that pin without having to deal with the mound. Not only that, see how the left side of the green matches the dune slope perfectly.
Sand Hills wins 3 ad 2, becaue no matter how pretty the 16th hole at Riviera is, a 165 yard hole with a 2500 square foot green can't compete with a great par 5 such as Sand Hills #16.
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/SandHills16thgreen.jpg)
You had me at hello!
I just love the Riv, but there's no way that it wins in match play against Sand Hills, which is still my favorite course ever played.
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Matt -
What is the small white stake in the sixth photo?
Michael - That is the leftside 150 yard stake.
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I tell you, Riviera looks amazing. I've never played it, but it looks amazing. However, this thread really highlights to me how extra-ordinary Sand Hills really is. It is truly something beyond special.
Great thread, John!
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For people who do not know, a ball left of 18 at Riviera rarely kicks onto the green. There's just enough space between the steep part of the hill and the fringe that it take a good deal of luck to bounce on. And of course the kikuyu is brutal, especially from a downhill lie.
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Matt B,
Am I to assume from the pics you hit the fairway off the tee, blocked your second straight right into the trees and made double?
Scott,
Actually, I blocked my tee shot into the trees, punched out to 80 yards then hit my lob wedge long onto the hillside. I'd take three to get down from there for my double.
I was playing with the assistant pro that day and when he saw me block my tee shot, he insisted that I couldn't end my day that way and told me to play two balls, with the second hitting the fairway. The approach shot shown above was really taken for posterity purposes.
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Matt B.
Wonderful pics of Sand Hills. I never tire of looking at that place. If I ever return, I think I'm going to try a bit harder to remember my camera and spend a while late in the day simply taking pictures. Thanks for sharing.
Scott
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The 17th at Sand Hills unfortunately rests on the laurels of a tee that no longer exists. I really wish people would give it up and quit climbing back there to take pictures. It also may be the only hole on the course where I had preconceived notions and looked forward to playing. The hole is beautiful, simple and complex to a degree that reminds me of Audrey Hepburn. It's a signature hole on a course that doesn't need to introduce itself.
Even Lanny Wadkins has said that the 17th at Riviera is underrated strategically, and only because at its length the fronting cross bunkers are in play for the bombers but out of the way for golfers. Its a simple straight forward long par 5 that will humble you when you find yourself still mid iron out when the pros reach it in two. A fine hole that can be found all over the world.
Match play at 17.
Riviera !
Sand Hills ??
Sand Hills wins to go down one with one to go.
While I am very grateful to the other JK for his excellent match play analysis the official match will end tomorrow, unless Sand Hills rallies from three down to tie. If so we will move on back to the first for a sudden death play off that will conclude on Monday. I can tell you now that I have no idea how this will turn out unless we get past the first hole. No way Sand Hills loses the second.
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Mayhugh hasn't played Sand Hills. There is a God.
I haven't played Lawrence County CC either.
A few more pics of the 15th as Sean Arble requested:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/riviera/riv15t.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/riviera/riv15f.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/riviera/riv15fright.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/riviera/riv15apr.jpg)
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Thanks John. I hope people someday get a chance to see how at the opening Riviera had seedlings planted where all these trees exist today. I believe that Thomas knew they would grow.
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I like JK's analysis that although the 17th at Riviera is a wonderful golf hole, it's a design that can be found anywhere. It takes two good shots to have a reasonable length third, and then the third shot plays way more uphill than it looks. The green has lots of good pin placements, too. I feel it's kind of underrated in the grand scheme of things, a very good golf hole.
#17 at Sand Hills is unique and very attractive looking. At 150 yards, it's another par 3 at Sand Hills where it is hard to hit the green in regulation. During one visit where I played 5-6 rounds, I missed the green every time until the last round, where I decided to punch a little 8-iron, staring at the right bunker, traveling low and curving a few yards left. I though this shot followed the grass on the hole nicely. A miss short would still be on grass, and a punch shot is a bit more reliably directed. I reached the green and made a 3, not to mention the joy of hitting a specialty shot and pulling it off.
Sand Hills has difficult par 3s, especially #13 and #17. There's a reason why there are so many pictures of Sand Hills #17. JK makes a compelling case to award the hole to Sand Hills, despite the relative simplicity of a par 3 hole. But I don't have to choose, since Sand Hills already closed out the match.
My match results correlate with my "Doak" rankings of each course. When Ian Linford solicited our opinions on golf courses a couple years ago, I gave Sand Hills 10 and Riviera 9, so it validates my ratings somewhat. Of course, I believe that Tom Doak awards the same ratings, so maybe I'm just parroting the authoritative opinion. I try to be unbiased.
Riviera's greatest shortcoming as a golf course is the kikuyu grass, which places significant limitations on the type of short shots that can be attempted. It limits the creativity a player may wish to display. Would it be a 10 with bentgrass, with fescue? Maybe with a first class fescue surface, because that's the only grass that really opens up the game and its possibilities.
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Riviera's greatest shortcoming as a golf course is the kikuyu grass, which places significant limitations on the type of short shots that can be attempted. It limits the creativity a player may wish to display. Would it be a 10 with bentgrass, with fescue? Maybe with a first class fescue surface, because that's the only grass that really opens up the game and its possibilities.
This may be the biggest difference I have in opinion with you concerning Riviera. I think the kikuyu is a wonderful surface, much better than bent grass but not quite as good as fescue. I think I had played Riviera before I had ever played a fescue course and told my host it was the finest playing surface I had ever seen.
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Does kikuyu play similarly to zoysia?
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Does kikuyu play similarly to zoysia?
Yes, but it feels firmer underneath. One thing I never understood about zoysia is how or why it makes carts drive funny. I've never driven a cart on kikuyu.
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The kikuyu at Riviera is great in many respects. The ball sits up so nicely in the fairway, but is very difficult to judge around the greens. You can putt on it, but trying to bounce a ball onto a green is almost out of the question. Most sort shots are lofted onto the green, with very few exceptions.
You know what other grass is tough to putt on? Dwarf bluegrass make speed very hard to judge.
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Sean A:
Sorry, just looked through my Riv pics and I don't have pics of the whole of 15 - just three pics of the green!
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Life can get in the way of a 30+ day thread and each and every day I have taken time to consider how play at the 18th will turn out. I have decided to proceed without opening Geoff's book or look to Ran's review.
I think the 18th at Riviera is the finest 18th hole in Championship golf. The location may have created the modern amphitheater made popular at TPC courses. The drive from the championship tee is so difficult I don't think I can clear the hill but those who do must stay far enough left to avoid the trees. Any shot missing the green leaves a difficult chip from all angles except short, and when is a pro ever short. It is the one hole in the country where if I needed a pro to make a bogey on the 18th to win a bet I would sit his ass.
When I think of the 18th at Riviera I think relief, I'm tired, hungry and happy to climb that long hill back to the clubhouse.
My opinion of the 18th at Sand Hills is that it is the finest 18th hole in casual golf. I enjoy that after having a beautiful stroll through the Sand Hills a bit of excellence is demanded from the golfer to complete a round. I'd hate to have to make a par to shoot the kind of score that eases you to sleep on a flight home. A wonderful job was done exploding your senses with beauty, kinda like the first time you saw a tramp stamp on a good girl. A perfect ending to a perfect day.
When I think of the 18th of Sand Hills it is with a touch of sadness as I realize a great thing is about to end.
Match play at the 18th.
Riviera !!!
Sand Hills ?!?
Sand Hills wins the 18th to bring the match to a draw.
I have decided to go immediately to the first tee in sudden death format.
You may note that at the start of the match Riviera won the first hole because of the green site alone. Over the course of the last month some things have changed and we seem to be focusing on the holes in total. This is what we will do here:
When looking at the holes in total Riviera wins the tee shot as hitting off that hill next to the dining room is one of the great thrills in golf. As before Riviera also wins the green site battle. After much review and consideration however, Sand Hills wins the hole in total and the match.
It appears I was wrong. I like Sand Hills more than Riviera as proven by this exercise.
Never mind.
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Sounds more like the match was halved.
Interesting thread, John, you should do another one like this. Maybe Sawgrass v Bandon Trails? (another championship venue versus a course you love, I think)
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Sorry Solomon, Sand Hills won the match in sudden death.
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John:
I have enjoyed this thread as much as any in a long time. I have not contributed because I only know Riviera from television.
Thanks for doing this.
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JK-I will comment from the perspective that I have never played either course but found the thread extremely enjoyable nonetheless. To have the match come done to sudden death is all I could ask for as an onlooker. Such impassioned posts and reasoning behind the awarding of each hole as well as the month long time frame it took to play out only added to the fun. Well done and a helluva lot better than shoveling another foot of snow here in cheery New England. Add the sad emoticon for thread being over.
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I too really enjoyed and learned a lot from this thread. Thanks to the OP JK and thanks to the OPs frequent interlocutor JK ( John Kirk) for an energetic, well articulated, occasionally prickly (where would the fun be otherwise?) discussion.
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To the two JK's:
A fun exercise and I think Sand Hills is a clear winner, which is saying a lot, because I firmly believe that Riviera is one of the finest courses in the country and an architectural destination of the first order. In terms of match play, I think it might be more meaningful to match up the courses on the basis of par as opposed to the first hole vs the first hole, etc. Under that system, I think Sand Hills would still win, but it might allow the commentators to compare more apples to apples, as opposed to the other analysis.
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Hi Chris. Thanks for the mention. Chris and I had the pleasure of playing golf together a couple weeks ago.
The competition between golf holes became interesting on the back nine. The best holes on each course matched up more frequently. Like baseball pitching matchups, where the modern practice is to pit one team's best pitcher against the other team's ace. The 18th holes of each courses are both aces.
It all depends on your value system, whether you value beauty over shot requirements. You can't believe how far uphill the tee shot on Riviera's 18th is until you stand on the tee. One of those instances where the television flattens out one's perspective from one's living room. The walk up the steep hill would be energizing, if it weren't the 18th hole. Like his par 3 14th hole at Stanford University, Mr. Thomas uses a natural amphitheater for a greensite. If you can get the tee shot into position, the fairway wood approach is a great shot to try and execute. Miss the green and you'll probably make 5. Really tough to make par here.
I hit a memorable shot during one of my three rounds at the great old course. I hit a solid push into the eucalypti. With about 210 in, I hit a low controlled draw through a hole in the canopy and onto the green. My host suggested it was one of the only times he had seen the shot executed. I think I made 5 anyway.
Like the 17th hole at Sand Hills, the 18th is so beautiful, you can't take your eyes off of it. In fact, in my small universe, I might suggest that Sand Hills has the two most beautiful finishing holes. It's not as difficult as it initially seems, once you learn the second shot is approximately two clubs uphill. If I have 150 yards in, then it's 5-iron. All the big trouble is in the front of the green, which is set inside a bowl that tends to gather balls onto the green. The green is sloped but not overly complex, so a miss to the back of the green can be managed.
Since my match is closed out, I don't have to choose. I like the look at Sand Hills, but I like the "shot values" a bit more at Riviera. Both greens have a consistent back to front slope. At Riviera, the variety of predicaments for missing the green is greater, due to the concave nature of the 18th green complex at Sand Hills.
Let's call it a draw. Sand Hils wins four more holes, I think 9-5-4 draws, but it may have been 10-6-2 draws. I tried hard to choose each time.
As the years go by, I find dimished motivation to express my opinions here. You join GolfClubAtlas (thank you John VanderBorght for sponsoring me). You spend years immersed in studying courses, and at some point, you form your own concrete philosophy about the game, and what is important. It's nice to periodically find the right forum to share your thoughts, without repeating yourself constantly. Thanks so much for letting me participate.
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I'm sitting consumed by range sweat overlooking snow covered Indiana. God am I happy this thead is done. It felt good putting down the pen and hitting the clubs again.
Thanks to everyone for making my thead better than Tom Doak's. Good try Tom and better luck next time.
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Thanks to everyone for making my thead better than Tom Doak's. Good try Tom and better luck next time.
:) Actually, what you said was that your thread would draw more hits than Tom's. His had 5600+ views, yours has 4800+ views. Sorry, Charlie, better luck next time...
There's more than enough room for both.
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Courses I am not qualified to compare that I would like to see in match play:
Ballyneal vs NGLA
The Alotian vs Augusta National
Medinah vs Torrey Pines
I believe each of these courses have a connection that would make a match interesting. I think Torrey Pines could take Medinah, all courses included.
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John, I'd also like to see Pine Valley vs CPC. The two courses that seem to top all the U.S. (and often world) lists.
Others:
Shinnie vs NGLA
Ballyneal vs Sand Hills
Royal County Down vs TOC
Seminole vs Pinehurst
Plus all sorts of other lineups.
IMO the matches needn't be match play. We could come up with a medal play format, that might give better results.
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We used to play this match game quite a bit back about 8-10 years ago here on GCA.com. Which poster was the lead promoter of such. Wasn't it Noel Freeman? Maybe even Geoff Shack...Or, is it a poster NLE? I forget.
The combinations are endless, of course. I enjoyed the Riv vs SHGC as an interesting contrast of situational aspects from era to style to legend and lore, not to mention actual merits of GCA. But, I also think if you reprise the golf course match play, you ought to make a formula to match par 3 to 3s, 4s to 4s, 5s to 5s. One could start the match by making a list of them as they appear in sequence. On the mismatched course par comparisons, begin the match with them, so that the disparity doesn't weigh so heavy as the match tightens at the end. Or, that the rules are slightly modified so that the closing holes, no matter the par are matched, but all others are matched as close as possible with like pars in order of sequence.
Otherwise, while novel and interesting like Riv and SH may have been, it gets really too disparate to make any sense. I even thought that the Riv SH should have atleast been par matched at the last 3 holes.
Jim, you have really narrowed down your universe as to who can credibly comment... :)
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The key, and what was different this time, is doing one hole per day. I would like to see medal play where the holes are scored similar to a boxing match. Sand Hills would have won 8 by a score of 3 to 6. Doing one hole per day forces the OP to really think about each hole. Be careful because it can be exhaustive. I even learned to respect salaried golf writers after this experience. Writing under obligation is like making a deposit at a sperm bank.
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Writing under obligation is like making a deposit at a sperm bank.
You do each right handed?
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Writing under obligation is like making a deposit at a sperm bank.
You do each right handed?
No, it's not something you look forward to doing and usually ends in embarrassment. I can't tell you how much I hate running into someone I know who has been watching.
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John - thanks for this thread, it was the most readable in a long time. Having played neither I had always assumed that SH was the superior course; having read some of your past posts and the fact that you even started this thread, I knew where this was going. But you made (more than) compelling points and Riviera more than held its own. Congrats on seeing and playing two great courses, and moreso, for breaking them down for the masses.
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I think the JK v JK was especially compelling -- almost as much of a contrast as Riv v SH. What other courses do you two have in common?
Ballyneal & Victoria National? Home v Home
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bumping because of tournament this weekend, thought others might find it interesting.
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I quite enjoy these types of threads. I tried one once with Seminole and Crystal Downs but was told it wasn't worth it because of the few people who have played both. I've not played Riviera nor Sand Hills but apparently they are one step from being CCFADs....either that or my access whoring powers haven't spread past the Mississippi.
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How about Kingsley vs. Crystal Downs?
Or Kingsley vs. Bandon Dunes?
I've heard how great Kingsley is from many people and I'd love to get a sense of just how great it is.
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I've heard how great Kingsley is from many people and I'd love to get a sense of just how great it is.
You can't handle the truth.
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How about branching out to:
Camargo vs. Crooked Stick
Crooked Stick vs. The Golf Club
Chambers Bay vs. Straits
I like JK's idea of Ballyneal vs. NGLA best of all
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No, it should be Old Macdonald vs NGLA, especially if you compare the shared template holes. That would be pretty fascinating...
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Richard...nice idea!
We need Jim Colton to step in here.
It is closing in on March. We need a 64 (or is it now 68) team/course bracket to run it all down, hole by hole, to come up with champion course.
Why not? Could discussion and analysis should ensue. We could even have a committee decide on what teams/courses get in the tourney.
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Whoever does this, please start a new thread.
And a suggested ground rule: instead of #1 vs #1, how about the first par 4 vs first par 4, first par 5 vs first par 5, etc?
Otherwise there's a lot of apples vs oranges discussion.
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I've heard how great Kingsley is from many people and I'd love to get a sense of just how great it is.
You can't handle the truth.
I've still not heard a better statement than yours: if the age of the golf courses were reversed, so would be the perceptions.
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Richard...nice idea!
We need Jim Colton to step in here.
I don't think Colton has played Old Mac. We need Mayhugh!!!
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What about the idea of championing the best template hole? I know we have done a lot of hole by hole comparison, but have we done competitive analysis between many variations of the same template?
Who has the best example of biarritz? The best alps? Bottle?
That would be pretty cool...
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What a fascinating phenomenon - a new and wholly artificial ranking system that adds insult to that injury by a) stripping both competing courses of half their charm and essence/quality by focusing on individual holes and thus ignoring the routings and the flow/cadence from one hole to the next, and b) further eviscerating the value/validity of the rankings by focusing on a pair of golf courses that have been played by only the smallest percentage of participants from an already small/elitist pool of potential candidates. JK's thread worked -- if it did indeed work, beyond the entertainment value -- because of the charming and interesting choice of comparing Riviera to Sand Hills; I don't think the feat can be repeated.
Peter
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I've only played NGLA once. I've played Old Mac about seven times (already! how about that!) and Ballyneal about 50 times. At one play, I'm not qualified to compare NGLA with anything, because it will lose, since I've only played it once. I will say this: my favorite stretch at NGLA was the long holes in the middle, six beauties back-to-back. I think I even remember the names: Road, Bottle, Long, Shinnecock, Double Plateau, Sebonack...I may have that last one wrong. Boy those are good holes, and it's always the shorties at the beginning and end of the round that get the love.
Another stray thought. Among the courses I've played, I believe Pacific Dunes would win a hole-by-hole comparison with any course.
Remember that thread a year or so ago where Ari T. was talking about the courses he had played. "Well I've played Sand Hills about a million times and Ballyneal about half a million and Pac Dunes about 500 and Old Mac about a thousand." That was a great one. That fella gets around.
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How about Pacific Dunes v Sebonack (if it has not been done already)