Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: mark chalfant on November 20, 2010, 10:30:23 AM
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I am organizing a Devereux Emmet Society to honor this underappreciated golf course architect. I will be publishing a quarterly newsletter and plans are in the works for a spring meeting to celebrate his work.
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Mark:
BRAVO!
It's about time Devereux Emmet had his own society. There are numerous questions about him, his courses and his work and life and times and to date for those interested in him the only way to find things out has been to contact about 3-4 people who seemed the most familiar with various things about him.
About a year ago I thought I might get pretty lucky in that vein. One of my favorite relations is a wonderful lady whose name today is Daphne Hallowell. I always knew her maiden name was Daphne Emmet but until last year I failed to consider if there was a connection to Devereux Emmet. So last year I asked her and sure enough he was her great-uncle. She said she would contact the person in the extended family she felt was the most likely to know about him and his life to see if any family papers or information existed and she did that but unfortunately it seems to be coming up pretty empty.
Devereux Emmet and his family before, during and after him were pretty prominent however, there is no question of that.
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Can I join? Are the dues resonable? This may be something that clubs on Long Island may be interested in. There used to be an Emmet Cup golf tournament between emmet clubs on Long island. I know there is something set up like this between Raynor / CB Mac clubs around the country.
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Adam:
Whatever the Devereux Emmet Society dues are I hereby guarantee that I will pay yours even if there are different levels and costs! What do you want to be---the president, the vice president, a founding member or an associate member? If you want to be the president then I will just see to it that Mark is the Czar of the Devereux Emmet Society or the Chairman of its Board of Trustees (both or either of which is essentially the Top Banana and all that sort of thing). ;)
And I hereby designate that the official uniform of the Devereux Emmet Society be a white suit and white shoes and a rakish hat!
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Mark:
BRAVO!
It's about time Devereux Emmet had his own society. There are numerous questions about him, his courses and his work and life and times and to date for those interested in him the only way to find things out has been to contact about 3-4 people who seemed the most familiar with various things about him.
About a year ago I thought I might get pretty lucky in that vein. One of my favorite relations is a wonderful lady whose name today is Daphne Hallowell. I always knew her maiden name was Daphne Emmet but until last year I failed to consider if there was a connection to Devereux Emmet. So last year I asked her and sure enough he was her great-uncle. She said she would contact the person in the extended family she felt was the most likely to know about him and his life to see if any family papers or information existed and she did that but unfortunately it seems to be coming up pretty empty.
Devereux Emmet and his family before, during and after him were pretty prominent however, there is no question of that.
TEP
I had no idea you were such a fan...I recall you regularly besmirching his reputation.
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Keep up the innuendo and the bile, Tom MacWood, it's definitely apparent in the last some years that's about all you're good for on this website and with everyone you communicate with on here! :(
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Mark
A very good and deserving choice. If you haven't already I would recommend talking to the founders of the other societies. It seems to me they have all taken slightly different roads.
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Keep up the innuendo and the bile, Tom MacWood, it's definitely apparent in the last some years that's about all you're good for on this website and with everyone you communicate with on here! :(
Innuendo? All anyone has to do is plug in 'emmet' and 'gay' into the search engine.
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Well, Tom MacWood if you are still so overwrought about what I and a few other on here said in the past about Devereux Emmet and his "gay" architecture, I hereby state with complete seriousness and confiction that that was only meant to be a JOKE because of that white suit and hat he happened to once wear in that semi-famous photograph of him!
To some of us I suppose it just made him look to be a gay dandy and that seemed genuinely humorous to some of us at the time. Perhaps you just failed to see the humor in that or perhaps you understood that as everyone else did but that you just continue to mention it and use it to perpetuate your agenda of innuendo and bile on here.
The same was true with Morrison and Macdonald's grave but on that too with you even if it was explained about twenty times that it was just mentioned on here as a joke, with you it either goes right in one ear and right out the other or you just continue to use it and mention it to perpetuate your agenda of innuendo and bile on here.
In any case, let's just drop it shall we? Mark Chalfant has a good idea and suggestion here with this thread and there is no reason for you to ruin this thread too with your agenda driven usual innuendo and bile.
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Back on topic.
Clearly St George's has gotten some recent love from a crew of West Coast GCAers, yet many in NY area don't know about it. It seems like the clubs of Emmet and Emmet himself keep a lower profile. I have probably driven by Bonnie Briar a dozen times without thinking about it. Hopefully Mark can bring out some other courses. This is a list from World Golf, is it accurate?
Devereux Emmet
Courses Built
* Belmont Hills Country Club - Private in St Clairsville
* Blue at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
* Blue/Green at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Bonnie Briar Country Club - Private in Larchmont
* Capital Hills at Albany in Albany
* Dudley Hill Golf Club in Dudley
* East at Mohawk Golf Club - Private in Schenectady
* Garden City Golf Club - Private in Garden City
* Glen Head Country Club - Private in Glen Head
* Gold at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
* Green/Red at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Greenacres Country Club - Private in Lawrenceville
* Hampshire Country Club - Private in Mamaroneck
* Huntington Country Club - Private in Huntington
* Huntington Crescent Club - Private in Huntington
* Keney Park Golf Club - Public in Hartford
* Mahopac Golf Club - Private in Mahopac
* McGregor Links Country Club in Saratoga Springs
* Mechanicville Golf Club - Semi-Private in Mechanicville
* Nassau Country Club - Private in Glen Cove
* Pelham Country Club - Private in Pelham Manor
* Powelton Club, The - Private in Newburgh
* Radisson Cable Beach & Golf Resort in Bahamas
* Red/Blue at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Riddell's Bay Golf and Country Club in Bermuda
* Ridgewood Country Club - Private in Danbury
* Rockaway River Country Club - Private in Denville
* Rockville Links Club - Private in Rockville Centre
* Rye Golf Club - Private in Rye
* Schuyler Meadows Club - Private in Loudonville
* Seawane Club, The - Private in Hewlett Harbor
* St. George's Golf & Country Club in East Setauket
* St. Mary's Country Club - Private in Saint Marys
* Wee Burn Country Club - Private in Darien
* Wheeling Country Club - Private in Wheeling
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Can I join? Are the dues resonable? This may be something that clubs on Long Island may be interested in. There used to be an Emmet Cup golf tournament between emmet clubs on Long island. I know there is something set up like this between Raynor / CB Mac clubs around the country.
Adam,
After seeing photos of St. George's recently, I think you should be an honourary (Canadian spelling!) member. I look forward to visiting the course someday, to have a look at all those cool features in person.
Keep up the great work,
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I am organizing a Devereux Emmet Society to honor this underappreciated golf course architect. I will be publishing a quarterly newsletter and plans are in the works for a spring meeting to celebrate his work.
Please be sure to report with pictures about the resto work at Schuyler Meadows near Albany, NY.
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Manchester (Ct.) CC (1917 Public) - Bendelow/Emmet
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Michael Sweeney:
I see you have Garden City attributed to Devereux Emmet.
Do you think that's wise? I know, I know, the history books may say that but they may be no better than a third grade paper compared to some of the amazing in-depth research on here. I should remind you that Charles Blair Macdonald moved from Chicago to New York in 1900 and immediately joined GCGC. Knowing that important information, do you think it's possible that a 1900 GCA novice such as Devereux Emmet should be given such architectural attribution for GCGC? I mean what did he know in 1900 except where to get really cool looking white suits and shoes made and how to buy hunting dogs in South Carolina and sell them for a profit in Ireland? Is it possible that New York tried to iconize their own and unfairly minimize the contributions of outsiders as Philadelphia apparently did back then?
Given the expert researchers/historians on here I wager that CBM should be ultimately given credit for designing GCGC or at least for being the driving force behind it. My precise wager would be 71% Macdonald and 23% Alexander Findlay. If you want me to go for the precise trifecta I can give that a shot too.
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Michael Sweeney:
I see you have Garden City attributed to Devereux Emmet.
Do you think that's wise? I know, I know, the history books may say that but they may be no better than a third grade paper compared to some of the amazing in-depth research on here. I should remind you that Charles Blair Macdonald moved from Chicago to New York in 1900 and immediately joined GCGC. Knowing that important information, do you think it's possible that a 1900 GCA novice such as Devereux Emmet should be given such architectural attribution for GCGC? I mean what did he know in 1900 except where to get really cool looking white suits and shoes made and how to buy hunting dogs in South Carolina and sell them for a profit in Ireland? Is it possible that New York tried to iconize their own and unfairly minimize the contributions of outsiders as Philadelphia apparently did back then?
Given the expert researchers/historians on here I wager that CBM should be ultimately given credit for designing GCGC or at least for being the driving force behind it. My precise wager would be 71% Macdonald and 23% Alexander Findlay. If you want me to go for the precise trifecta I can give that a shot too.
Or we could talk about one of the other 34 courses that were listed by World Golf (and not me!). ;) GCGC has been done to death here. I love the place, but I am more interested in a club like Wee Burn. I have never played it, it is probably less than 10 minutes from where I type this, yet I am guessing that it was/is better than the typical view of Fairfield County (CT) golf that we typically talk about here. Why does it not get more recognition, and if it was properly renovated with a sympathetic restoration style, could it run up the Golfweek Classic list like Mountain Lake once did and I expect Southampton to soon do?
More information please Mark Chalfant!
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OK, Michael, good post there and pretty good deflection! OH, and sorry for the jaded humor (or is it humour?). ;)
Mark:
Again, great idea. How can we help?
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Mark,
I'm so happy to see that you are creating an Emmet society. There couldn't be a better person to take on the task.
Happy Holidays
Jim
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Back on topic.
Clearly St George's has gotten some recent love from a crew of West Coast GCAers, yet many in NY area don't know about it. It seems like the clubs of Emmet and Emmet himself keep a lower profile. I have probably driven by Bonnie Briar a dozen times without thinking about it. Hopefully Mark can bring out some other courses. This is a list from World Golf, is it accurate?
Devereux Emmet
Courses Built
* Belmont Hills Country Club - Private in St Clairsville
* Blue at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
* Blue/Green at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Bonnie Briar Country Club - Private in Larchmont
* Capital Hills at Albany in Albany
* Dudley Hill Golf Club in Dudley
* East at Mohawk Golf Club - Private in Schenectady
* Garden City Golf Club - Private in Garden City
* Glen Head Country Club - Private in Glen Head
* Gold at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
* Green/Red at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Greenacres Country Club - Private in Lawrenceville
* Hampshire Country Club - Private in Mamaroneck
* Huntington Country Club - Private in Huntington
* Huntington Crescent Club - Private in Huntington
* Keney Park Golf Club - Public in Hartford
* Mahopac Golf Club - Private in Mahopac
* McGregor Links Country Club in Saratoga Springs
* Mechanicville Golf Club - Semi-Private in Mechanicville
* Nassau Country Club - Private in Glen Cove
* Pelham Country Club - Private in Pelham Manor
* Powelton Club, The - Private in Newburgh
* Radisson Cable Beach & Golf Resort in Bahamas
* Red/Blue at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Riddell's Bay Golf and Country Club in Bermuda
* Ridgewood Country Club - Private in Danbury
* Rockaway River Country Club - Private in Denville
* Rockville Links Club - Private in Rockville Centre
* Rye Golf Club - Private in Rye
* Schuyler Meadows Club - Private in Loudonville
* Seawane Club, The - Private in Hewlett Harbor
* St. George's Golf & Country Club in East Setauket
* St. Mary's Country Club - Private in Saint Marys
* Wee Burn Country Club - Private in Darien
* Wheeling Country Club - Private in Wheeling
It's pretty accurate but not complete. Emmet designed and redesigned a hell of a lot of courses. Trying to identifying them all will be a challenge, but it is about time we tried.
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Mark and Mike,
Here is another Emmett original design. The Lenox Hills Golf Club which would sold to New York State and re-opened in 1932 as the Bethpage Golf Club. Today it is known as the Green Course at Bethpage State Park.
Tilly did an extensive redesign of the course when he designed the three new ones. The current 1st, 2nd, 3rd 17th and 18th holes on the Green Course are Tillinghast redesigns as well as a number of other minor changes to the course on various holes.
Below is from the Brookly Eagle of March 30, 1923 announcing its opening:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/LenoxHillsGolfClub3301923.jpg)
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Edison CC in Rexford, NY is Emmet.
A few of his NLE courses:
Battle Island GC – Oswego NY -done over by RTJsr.
St Lawrence University GC, -done over by RTJsr
Hob Nob Hill- Salisbury, Ct
Iroquois Golf Club- Niskayuna, NY
Schalren Country Club- Mohawk View, NY (built for the Masonic Order)
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also NOT on the list is one that has received extensive coverae on GCA:
The Leatherstocking Course @ The Otesaga Resort in Cooperstown...
it's usually a "must play" each year for those within a relatively easy (self defined) drive...
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the course listed as Radisson Cable Beach Golf Club in Nassau, Bahamas is on the site of the original Nassau Golf Club but unfortunately has no DE holes left.
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Good morning,
Thanks for all your ideas and encouragement. Some Emmet designs I didn't see listed are,
Leewood near Scarsdale, NY
Wheatley Hills in Nassau County, NY
Lawrence GC in Lawrence, NY
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Mark,
That list doesn't contain many of the courses that C&W show as Emmet.
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Mark,
A wonderful idea! I must confess having not had the opportunity to play a single Devereux course yet, as none are in my area and I've yet to take a buddy up on a GCGC invite kindly extended several years ago.That said, he clearly is an important architect and an interesting character. For some reason, he does seem to be overlooked given his rather extensive work and quality of it.
I've always been intrigued to see his work and learn more about him. Please keep us informed as to developments and I'd certainly like to contribute as a member.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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I realize it may be difficult to determine but if it could be documented when Devereux Emmet first received a fee for architecture it would be most interesting to know.
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also NOT on the list is one that has received extensive coverae on GCA:
The Leatherstocking Course @ The Otesaga Resort in Cooperstown...
it's usually a "must play" each year for those within a relatively easy (self defined) drive...
Scott,
Leatherstocking is definitely a glaring omission from that list. However, Emmet's role in Leatherstocking is not completely known, considering his original nine hole layout was completely redesigned in 1919 by himself, Len Rayner, and Stephen C. Clark.
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Tom,
Huntington CC paid Dev in 1910 for design work , not sure about earlier designs...RHE
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Mike-
I believe Cherry Valley Club in Garden City, NY is missing.
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Another lost Emmet is Queen's Valley Golf Club, formerly located between 72nd Ave. and Union Tpke. in Kew Gardens Hills, Ny.
He laid out the course with W.H. "Pipe" Follett and Carter's Tested Seeds was used for the construction. It's scheduled opening was on Decoration Day (Memorial Day), 1923.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5196177285_2f0dd9c268_z.jpg)
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"Tom,
Huntington CC paid Dev in 1910 for design work , not sure about earlier designs...RHE"
Robert:
Thanks for that info. I ask because I'm not aware that the USGA questioned Emmet's amateur status and if he was being paid for his architectural services right on along I wonder why they didn't question his amateur status as he seems to have been a good enough and active enough tournament player to have been considered by them to be a golfer of skill and reputation. I don't know that he competed in USGA championships, however, and that may've been the difference back then.
A good example of that may've been Tillinghast. He did compete in USGA championships for a time and his amateur status was questioned. For instance, I believe Tillinghast's best showing in a US Open may've been in Philadelphia in 1910.
Emmet did continue to play pretty good tournament golf though and up to quite an elderly age.
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Country Club of Farmington in Connecticut should be added to the list.
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He was the club champ at St Georges for a number of years after it first opened
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Jim Kennedy,
Thanks very much for posting the map of Queens Valley. The use of angles, cross bunkers, and great variety from hole to hole are design themes and motifs that Emmet embraced in many of his finest designs
Mark
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Mark,
You're welcome.
Jim
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Mark,
Here's an aerial of the 5th hole at Hob Nob Hill (AKA Fulton Estate course) in Salisbury. At the time of the photo the course was no more than 1 year old, so more than likely this shows an overhead view of an untouched Emmet.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5200290334_56c78048b9_b.jpg)
The man was not afraid of using hazards.
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I think this is a great idea and best of luck to all concerned.
Speaking from the experience of our research group for The Alister Mackenzie Society UK, Cornish and Whitten's list is likely to be considerably incomplete and wrong in a few places. That is not a criticism per se, given the mammoth task they undertook, but a statement of reality. We combined the CW list, the Hawtree list in Colt & Co and the list in the Doak et al Mac biography book as a starting point. Since then we have added well over 50 courses Mac was involved in.
Good luck, and a worthwhile task to document Emmet's courses.
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I think I read somewhere that Great Neck G&CC had a nine hole course by Travis. It appears that Emmet was hired to create 36 holes on the site in 1918. Nowadays it's all housing.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5203005366_25570ccf7b.jpg)
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Marc,
As some people in the DG know I've spent the past five years on and off writing a book on Emmet and his family. When it will ever see the light of day is another matter, as I've been wrapped up in more pragmatic projects in the last year. For what it's worth, I'd be happy to help in any way I can with the formation of a society if you ever decide to go through with it. Emmet was a complex cat, and it's impossible to separate his family history from his work and his family from the history of New York.
At the same time, it's a rather touchy subject because someone in this group -- and I suppose only for reasons of his fragile ego and lack of perspective, as sad and pathetic as it now appears to me time out of mind -- cut into several situations where I was happy to lend gratis restoration info and other historic knowledge to interested parties ... whatever gets you through the night I guess. I'll just say now that the experience really turned me off from participating in further discussions on this site.
Tentative pub date: Fall '11
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It doesn't look like anyone has mentioned Salisbury CC in Nassau County NY. Now called Eisenhower Park Red Course which hosted the 1926 PGA Championship as well their share of Senior PGA Tour’s Commerce Bank Championships. I don't know how much Emmet is left but is always in good shape for pushing through 40,000 rounds annually.
AJ
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I'm a little surprised Chris Blakely has not chimed in...he has been the most dedicated Emmet admirer over the years.
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Whatever the Devereux Emmet Society dues are I hereby guarantee that I will pay yours even if there are different levels and costs! What do you want to be---the president, the vice president, a founding member or an associate member? If you want to be the president then I will just see to it that Mark is the Czar of the Devereux Emmet Society or the Chairman of its Board of Trustees (both or either of which is essentially the Top Banana and all that sort of thing). ;)
Hear, hear.
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I am organizing a Devereux Emmet Society to honor this underappreciated golf course architect. I will be publishing a quarterly newsletter and plans are in the works for a spring meeting to celebrate his work.
Mark, that sounds like a terrific idea. After about a decade of him being mercilessly mocked around here it is about time he got some positive attention.
I've seen a few articles he wrote about about various topics relating to golf (such as the amateur question) but am curious about what if anything he ever wrote about his ideas on golf architecture. Do you know of anything?
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"After about a decade of him being mercilessly mocked around here it is about time he got some positive attention."
As I sometimes do on here I checked whatever that GOLFCLUBALTLAS.com facility is that let's any of us view what the contributors online are looking at and I noticed Moriarty was viewing (and apparently posting on) a thread on Devereux Emmet from about seven years ago (2003).
Apparently his remark quoted above was a result of that thread. I would encourage him or anyone else to check out that thread to determine if that thread or any other thread about Devereux Emmet EVER constituted the mocking of the man or his architecture, and for a about a decade, as Moriarty implied! I think they may actually find the humor about him had only to do with a photograph of him once wearing a funny suit and hat!!
Nice to have you back on here again, Moriarty, after apparently a voluntary hiatus---you are a real positive influence on this website. I can't speak for the rest on here, but all I can tell you is I've sure missed your uniqueness. ;)
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I've seen the photo and if your juvenile sniggering ever was funny the humor surely has worn thin over the past decade. What might have started with a joke about a photo devolved into endless monotonous mockery and oftentimes the mockery has been coupled with an extremely dismissive and negative opinions about his work.
I don't want to take the thread to far afield, but here are a just couple of typical examples of many to choose from.
What I do think GCGC should do, though, is restore that 16th hole, all of it, completely to Travis and do away with anything Emmet did there either before Travis got involved with the course or after Travis died. That would definitely include that effeminate bunker Emmet snuck in greenside left at some point on #16 after Walter Travis died from smoking too many stogies.
I already proved last night on a couple of threads relating to Travis and Emmet and GCGC that Travis's architecture was virile and manly. And I also proved beyond a boa feather of a doubt that everything that little gay will-'o-the-wisp "Dev" Emmet did at GCGC was homosexual architecture. Is that what you want, homosexual architecture, at GCGC in your non-researched rapid quest to restore to some year because there's a lot of photos of that year?
Restoring to a year just because you think there were more photos of that year is not a great idea in an architectural context. Restoring to what was best is, though. The last time I heard, photographers were capable of taking some pretty good photos in the 1920s too, so I wouldn't be all that concerned about just the photographic aspect of GCGC's restoration. Check out your GCGC tournament history. 1936 surely wasn't the only year GCGC held a major tournament. There were Met Ams, State Ams and even a Walker Cup in the 1920s.
Actually the 1936 US Amateur finals at GCGC was one of the worst displays of golf in US Am history. The weather and wind was so bad, things blew done all over the course and what happened on #16 green, tragically, was very likely responsible for the beginning of the end of your beloved stymie! Is that what you want to restore to? The wind was so strong it blew things down all over the course. If that light little "Dev" Emmet had still been around in 1936 he probably would've blown away too!
Matter of fact, the wind and rain was so bad in the 1936 US Am I'm quite certain that was the very time Emmet's effeminate little bunker greenside left on #16 filled up with water creating a wetness problem there for the rest of time leading to the creation of the pond there in the 1970s. Of course, seeing as the pace of getting things done at GCGC is so glacial the fact that it took the club about 35 years to replace Emmet's bunker with a pond is not surprising!
But the important thing is to get ALL the architecture out of that golf course that fag Emmet did and restore to the course ALL the architecture of a real man---Walter John Travis!
Tom MacWood and Paul Cowley:
Well, I'll be damned and go to hell---you both make very fine points there!
And because you have that will certainly cause me to change my mind about what I've been saying. The "Big World" idea of golf and golf architecture ("Golf and golf architecture is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone") is the most important thing of all--certainly far more important than the removal of things such as "faggot bunkers" that require limp-wristed recovery shots!
So you've convinced me to change my mind--congratulations. I think things like "faggot bunkers" and other homosexual appearing golf architecture features do have a place in the "Big World" theory and should continue to be built, preserved and in some cases even restored---just not at that "Real" man, Walter J. Travis's golf course and "all-men" golf club---GCGC!
Anyway, the "joke" went way to far and for way to many years.
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"I've seen the photo and if your juvenile sniggering ever was funny the humor surely has worn thin over the past decade. What might have started with a joke about a photo devolved into endless monotonous mockery and oftentimes the mockery has been coupled with an extremely dismissive and negative opinions about his work."
David Moriarty:
I can absolutely assure you that your take on that joke about Devereux Emmet's photograph neither was or is my opinion of the man or his career in golf course architecture. I say that here and now as I have in the past with total assurance. Therefore, if you want to continue to push the point that you have on here I believe that says a whole lot more about your point and purpose on this website than it does about my opinion of Devereux Emmet and his golf architecture.
And frankly, if you had a modicum integrity and honesty with and of the discussion of Emmet on here you would link that entire seven year old thread on Emmet that you just quoted from ONTO THIS ONE to show this entire website what the contributors to that thread thought about it and said on it!!
But that is not your way of doing things on here, Moriarty; and it shows, as it always has, what your MO and point and purpose is on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com---and I for one want everyone to see why it is not good---not good at all.
You can do better Moriarty; I'm convinced of it. When will you begin?
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I've no intention of arguing the point with you Tom. Anyone curious about what you've written about Emmet over the years can search "Emmet" along with "gay" or other similar terms. In fact, they could just put in "Emmet" and search for your posts, as most of your mentions include derogatory comments about his orientation and/or his architecture.
And I did link the thread. In the description of quoted text.
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"And I did link the thread. In the description of quoted text."
David Moriarty:
Thank you for explaining that. I'm quite confident that others on here who were not on this website in 2003 will recognize the intent and tenor of that thread and that it was not at all what you indicate and imply about Devereux Emmet but was merely generated by and about that humorous photograph of him in a white suit and funny hat.
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David,
A happy Thanksgiving Day to you sir, and holiday cheer all 'round to the GCA treehouse! Please let us refrain from the recounting of small, perhaps amendable moments of some poster's past. Surely, you have a few of your own, my friend. Let us embark on a "better course" as the New Year dawns shortly.
Continued spewing of negativity does little to enhance the discourse. Hard as it may be, let us try and give it a rest. To point to others' comments, as justification for continuing our own descent in to uncivil behavior, only validates our own shortcomings. None of us is perfect...we all can vow to improve our own effort. I know my approach will be in that vein.
Cheers 8)
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Before Mark takes on creating detente between posters or figuring out the sexuality of private men who have been dead for 75 years ;), perhaps we can refocus on Mark's updated course list with the help of many here:
http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/2010/11/devereux-emmet-course-list.html
Anything still missing?
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"Anything still missing?"
MikeS:
Yes definitely; it seems Emmet's Meadowbrook Hunt Club course is still missing from the lists. That one was reputed to be one of the best ones he ever did and in the opinion of one direct observer I'm aware of who sure did see most all the courses on Long Island in the old days, perhaps the prettiest golf course she ever saw.
One can read about the way it once was in Dan Wexler's excellent Missing Links. On that note it's too bad Dan Wexler is no longer participating on this site. That man is a truly credible golf architecture historian and historical architecture analyst.
By the way, in his short bio on Emmet, Dan Wexler did mention he believes Emmet was involved with about seventy five courses in his career and so if that's true I guess this thread and the new Emmet blog has a ways to go.
Mark, if you have not spoken yet to Dan Wexler, I would be happy to put you in touch with him.
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Before Mark takes on creating detente between posters or figuring out the sexuality of private men who have been dead for 75 years ;), perhaps we can refocus on Mark's updated course list with the help of many here:
http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/2010/11/devereux-emmet-course-list.html
Anything still missing?
There are quite a few missing. The list from C&W is much more complete. I'd start there and then add and subtract from it.
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One of the courses missing from the C&W list is Belle Terre, which was near Port Jefferson. Also Glenwood is on the list, but there is no mention of it morphing into North Shore. Emmet was also involved in the design of the NGLA.
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"Emmet was also involved in the design of the NGLA."
The "verifiably provable" truth of the routing and design of NGLA is, Charlie being Charlie and being the former geometric GCA novice he was up until that point, he picked the extensive Golden Age GCA brains of Emmet, Travis and Whigam in the 6-7 years leading up to the development of NGLA and then completely minimized their extensive contributions and took all the attribution and credit unto himself.
Emmet, Travis and Whigam actually routed and designed NGLA or at least were the "driving force" behind it. And as that little girl in the fried chicken commercial said, Raynor "hepped."
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"Emmet was also involved in the design of the NGLA."
By the way, apropos of this remark on this thread, the thread entitled "Who ACTUALLY Designed National Golf Links of America?" is back in town and on the first page again for your consideration, education, delectation and comments! It may've taken a couple of months hiatus because someone may have flip-flopped or someone may've accused someone else of flip-floppery!!
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Immergrun GC, in Loretto, Pa.-was originally built for Charles Schwab in 1917?
The club's website has it as a Ross but Craig Rokke and Chris Blakely (and others) have it as an Emmet. Bookeeping records from the estate are supposed to have verified the payment to DE.
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For anything to do with Charles Schwab related golf interests the best expert I've ever run across would be John Yerger of the Sunnehanna GC in Johnstown, Pa.
And once again, I would love to know more about Emmet's history in getting paid to practice golf course architecture. I ask because if he was doing it through the teens I can't imagine how he avoided those tough years and some messy situations to do with the USGA and amateur status. If he was getting paid for architecture through those years the only thing I can think of is he must have had some kind of protector within the USGA (Macdonald?) or the USGA must not have considered him to be a amateur golfer of skill at that point to be able to trade on his name and reputation as an expert golfer.
I might also note that Macdonald himself went into what he termed his "renunciation" of tournament golf (at least on the national (USGA) level) right around the same time he began NGLA. Probably no more than a coincidence in time, though, as he was beginning to get a bit long in the tooth at that time and he claimed his body just didn't seem to be getting the same messages his mind used to send it.
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John Yerger says it's a Ross course, and that he's confident the club has an architectural plan for the course. It was first named Eurana, after CS' wife.
Craig Rokke said Ron Whitten and the local historical society believe it's an Emmet.
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Kris,
There was no nastiness on my part; just quoting TEPaul on the topic of the thread. Feel free to quote anything of mine as you see fit; but I don't think you'll find anything comparable. Plus, Kris, if you read my last post then you knew that I had already opted out of the exchange and moved on, so I am not sure what your point is except to get in a dig of your own. Happy Thanksgiving to you.
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Jim Kennedy,
Can you tell us a bit more about the photo and course from Salisbury? Particularly from what year the photo was taken and the source? I'd like to take a look at the whole thing. Thanks.
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David,
Here’s the link to the photo.
http://tinyurl.com/2u6rllo
….and a 1933 article describing the place.
http://tinyurl.com/2daj6hw
Short story: Fulton built it for himself and friends but let the townsfolk play on it. Abuse the course and you were banished. His wife let it lapse upon his death in the ‘40s.
…..here’s the clubhouse and some views of the old playing corridors.
http://tinyurl.com/23k8y7q
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David Moriarty:
Have you ever seen any United States ship manifest listings of Emmet entering the US from abroad or any UK or Irish ship manifest lists showing him entering the UK or Ireland?
Have you ever actually seen a UK ship manifest listing from the era app. 1895 to say 1920?
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Here's a listing of Emmet's courses w/Tull. Quite a few haven't been mentioned as of yet.
http://tinyurl.com/36kdmob
One in particular, the Bedford Golf and Tennis Club, was originally to be known as the "Westchester Women's Golf and Tennis Club".
Rich Goodale's mom played there on occasion. An article about the course can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/3a5rf52
If you'd like to see the 1934 aerial of the Lady's course plug 03985 into the "search all collections" box (upper r.hand corner of the page) at the CT. Library site.
http://tinyurl.com/2u6rllo
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Thanks Jim. He was in his 80s at the time, which is pretty amazing. Neat story.
I don't have Cornish and Whitten in front of me, but what about Belmont Manor in Bermuda?
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1929/ag333ai.pdf
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BDE19300222EmmetBermuda.jpg?t=1290712178)
Also, I am not sure if it actually happened, but according to the June 23, 1921 Schenectady Gazette, Emmet would probably expand their course to 18 holes. I believe the course is now called Rolling Hills Country Club.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Emmet19210623SchnGzAntlers.jpg?t=1290713416)
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TEPaul,
I've never looked at the manifests, but I know that Emmet traveled abroad (England and Ireland, at least) multiple times around the turn of the century.
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Have you ever actually seen a UK ship manifest listing from the era app. 1895 to say 1920?
Yes.
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David,
I have that Antler's article, but you're right, it isn't clear what he did.
He also 'approved some plans for the St. Regis GC, you can find that one in a search.
Emmet also built a 9 hole course for himself and friends on Sherrewogue, his St. James LI estate.
http://tinyurl.com/3yyw2df
The article makes it sound like a pretty nice place to play.
edit: the Bahamas and Bermuda courses are listed at the Emmet/Tull link.
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"Yes."
David Moriarty:
Thanks very much. Have you ever actually seen one (rather than just hearing about one) from the UK that lists Harry Colt returning to the UK on June 8 or 9 1913?
Have you ever seen one from the USA or UK listing Devereux Emmet?
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TEPaul,
As I said, I hadn't looked at any manifests for Devereux Emmet. I just took a quick look and there are plenty of manifests of Emmet arriving in England and Ireland within a decade (either way) of the turn of the century. Not sure this has ever been a mystery though. As I said, there are other sources indicating that he had been abroad extensively during this period. For instance, the following lists numerous letters from Devereux to family members from overseas:
http://www.aaa.si.edu/collections/findingaids/emmefami.htm
Nothing obviously referencing golf course design but a few interesting references nonetheless. Dev. Emmet was a direct descendant of the Irish patriot and martyr, Richard Emmet, and had many other prominent family members.
As for your question about Colt, this thread is about Emmet. That said, I'd be glad to provide you with the information you seek (and proof) but not in a thread because of possible copyright issues, and particularly not in this thread about Emmet. But Tom, while we are off topic, could you please finally come clean regarding the alleged Drexel papers? Not here, but in another thread or by IM if you wish.
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David Moriarty:
Jeeesus, that Emmet family colllection looks to be potentially amazing!! Great find, at least potentially. Have you been through it to any degree to see if there is anything in it anywhere from or about Devereux Emmet to do with golf course architecture?
One thing just jumped out at me while scanning through it cursorally. In the main house on this farm, there is a massive potrait of my mother as a young woman hanging over the fireplace in the living-room. It is by none other than Ellen Emmet Rand. My mother studied art herself in New York and abroad and a few times she spoke of that portrait and its artist. I think she only referred to her as Mrs Rand, and she was famous and quite the character. But I never thought of an Emmet connection. I just went over and looked at it and sure enough it is signed Ellen Emmet Rand.
Small world for sure!
"But Tom, while we are off topic, could you please finally come clean regarding the alleged Drexel papers? Not here, but in another thread or by IM if you wish."
I will be happy to contact you about that if you just give the word here and now that lifts this ban you seem to want to maintain from some time ago about me never trying to contact you about anything other than on this DG. I would prefer to do it via email, not on this IM. I think you will understand why.
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I've skmmed through the guide and as i wrote above there are no obvious references to gca. A few rounds of golf, though. These arent his papers but mostly the papers of a couple of female members of the family and most of the references to DE are letters to to them (one referencing a meeting he had with the President.). There are some about his death (spreading word I imagine) and another unrelated to design that ought to be explored further before it is discussed here.
I haven't looked at the documents only at the index.
If you can do so civilly, then you can email me. Otherwise not.
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"If you can do so civilly, then you can email me. Otherwise not."
David Moriarty:
My experiences with you on this website, and I believe the experiences with others with you on this website with what you seem to think is uncivil or insulting towards you and what you say to others that you don't seem to think is uncivil towards others or that you seem to think you have some good right to say anyway, does not match up by a long shot---not even close, in fact.
There are a lot of parts of posts from you on here that are really obnoxious and highly personally insulting and you have to date so far refused to delete them while only hedging and rationalizing your way around the whole thing.
I offered to delete all of mine and matter of fact, I think I will just go ahead and do it anyway. This website doesn't need them and they should be removed.
Anyway, with this Drexel material there is an email coming your way on what it's about. Let's hope you don't think it uncivil but with you who really knows?
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"TEPaul,
I've never looked at the manifests, but I know that Emmet traveled abroad (England and Ireland, at least) multiple times around the turn of the century."
David Moriarty:
So do I and it was apparently pretty much annually with Emmet. Many today and many on here do not really seem to understand or appreciate how much some of those people from Emmet's crowd went abroad, or why or for how long.
But it is not all that hard to figure out or find out and the reasons why.
Actually, Devereux Emmet's Irish heritage and his first name is really interesting and telling. There was a group of French aristocrats who hied on into southeast Ireland and settled there many generations ago for some damn reason. One of them was the Devereuxs. My mother's great friend, Antelo Devereux's family was one of them. Antelo had about a 5,000 acre plantation in South Carolina that had been in the family for generations----hunting and all that; massive packs of hunting dogs and such----eg Devereux Emmet's pastime of training hunting dogs in South Carolina and transporting them annually to Ireland and selling them.
I bet the people crossing the Atlantic with Devie and his pack of hunting hounds got a lot of sleep, huh? Have you ever heard a pack of hunting hounds at full bay? It's otherworldly! ;)
The Radnor Hunt is about a half mile from my farm here.
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I've skmmed through the guide and as i wrote above there are no obvious references to gca. A few rounds of golf, though. These arent his papers but mostly the papers of a couple of female members of the family and most of the references to DE are letters to to them (one referencing a meeting he had with the President.). There are some about his death (spreading word I imagine) and another unrelated to design that ought to be explored further before it is discussed here.
I haven't looked at the documents only at the index.
If you can do so civilly, then you can email me. Otherwise not.
I looked into that a few years back, and what impressed me was the artistic aptitude of Emmet and his siblings.
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David Moriarty:
You're right, that Emmet family collection, as amazing as it is in some ways, does not really much involve Devereux. In his era it appears to be mainly a series of correspondences amongst his sisters and their friends and connections.
One of the things that amazes me about it is how and how well the whole thing managed to stay together over such a long period of time to eventually get donated in the 1980s and 1990s by Rosamind Sherwood (Posie's daughter and Dev's niece).
But what the collection really does do is to give us all a fascinating vantage and view into the life and times of that kind of family from that high-living world of art, society and even politics. They all hung out with the Best of the Best of their generation, that's for sure---or the most powerful and famous in various walks of life, and across two continents.
It all just confirms my suspicions of the way that world was and the way it worked back then and how small and close it was compared to our era.
There are interesting views of other little tid-bits in there too such as the letter where I think Lydia said she was so surprised to see Marion Hollins and someone like Mary Pickford and another famous person sitting on a sofa holding hands! There are also a number of references in those letters to a Mckim; That was Marion Hollins' ultra attractive and charming, albeit ultra dissolute, brother. Marion was constantly bailing him out.
I have the distinct feeling that collections like those really do give us a first hand snap-shot of the basic "ethos" of that era known as The Golden Age, not with architecture but generally with a certain type and class, particularly after the mind-numbing, generation destroying affects of WW1. It really was sort of like those people having realized the danger of developing technologies made life something that one had to live for the day, because in an instance it could be over for so many. Carpie Diem on steroids----live fast, live loose and live life to the hilt because you may not have a tomorrow.
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I just want to thank everybody for the many fine posts re Devereux Emmet. I also appreciate the exceptional help provided by Mike Sweeney and Jim Kennedy as I have gotten started on this journey. In addition, I have put a call into Dev's buddy, Stanford White at his Pennsylvania Station office suite but Stanford has not returned my call so far. I will share when he does.
At thanksgiving I am grateful for all the nice friends at our website which Ran M. founded 11 years ago
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Emmet's obituary states that he designed 160 golf courses. Here's the list so far, and it includes the courses from C&W.
Only 73 71 70 69 more to go. :o
Antler’s Golf Club – Fort Jefferson, NY
Battle Island GC – Oswego NY -done over by RTJsr.
Belmont Hills Country Club - Private in St Clairsville
Belmont Manor - Bermuda
Belle Terre – Port Jefferson NY (also known as Port Jefferson GC)
* Blue/Green at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Bonnie Briar Country Club - Private in Larchmont
Brentwood GC - Town of Islip, NY
Broadmoor Country Club - New Rochelle, NY –NLE
Cape Cod CC – Hatchville, Ma.
* Capital Hills at Albany in Albany
Castle Inn GC - Bermuda - NLE
Cherry Valley Club, Garden City, NY
Congressional CC – Bethesda, MD.
Coonamessett GC - N. Falmouth, Ma ( orig. 9 - now Clauson's Inn)
Cooper River Country Club - NJ - NLE
Country Club of Farmington - Farmington, CT
* Dudley Hill Golf Club in Dudley
* East at Mohawk Golf Club - Private in Schenectady
Edison CC, Rexford , NY
East Meadow "Red" -Garden City, NY
* Garden City Golf Club - Private in Garden City
* Glen Head Country Club - Private in Glen Head
GlenWood CC - Farmingdale, NY
Grassy Sprain GC - Yonkers, NY - NLE
Great Neck G&CC – Great Neck, LI - NLE
* Green/Red at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Greenacres Country Club - Private in Lawrenceville
Green Hill Yacht & CC – Quantico Md.
* Hampshire Country Club - Private in Mamaroneck
Harrison-Williams Estate course...9 holes, NLE, Bayville, New York
Henry F. DuPont Private Course - DE – NLE
Hillcrest GC- Queens, NY - NLE
Hob Nob Hill- Salisbury, Ct –estate course for I.K. Fulton –NLE
Hog Back Mountain Course - NC – NLE?
Hotel Frascate GC - Bermuda - NLE
* Huntington Country Club - Private in Huntington
* Huntington Crescent Club - Private in Huntington
Immergrun GC- Loretto, Pa. – (quite possibly a Donald Ross course)
Iroquois Golf Club- Niskayuna, NY- NLE
Island Golf Links - Garden City, NY
* Keney Park Golf Club - Public in Hartford
Laurelton GC - Laurelton, LI - 36 holes - NLE
Lawrence GC- Lawrence, NY – NLE?
Leewood GC – Scarsdale, NY –NLE?
Lenox Hill Club. Farmingdale, LI -1923 (Bethpage "Green" course)
Leatherstocking GC, Cooperstown -1909
* Mahopac Golf Club - Private in Mahopac
Manchester (Ct.) CC (1917 Public) - Bendelow/Emmet
Manhasset CC - Manhasset, NY - NLE
Mayflower Golf Course - Tonawanda, NY - NLE
* McGregor Links Country Club in Saratoga Springs
Meadow Brook Club - Westbury, NY
* Mechanicville Golf Club - Semi-Private in Mechanicville
Mowhak CC - Schenectady, NY
* Nassau Country Club - Private in Glen Cove LI
Nassau Golf Club – Nassau, Bahamas –NLE
Northport CC - Northport, NY - NLE
Old Country Club / Flushing Country Club (Flushing, LI, NY) –NLE?
* Pelham Country Club - Private in Pelham Manor
Pomonok CC - Flushing, NY
* Powelton Club, The - Private in Newburgh
Queensboro Links - Astoria, NY - NLE
Queen's Valley Golf Club – Kew Gardens Hills, NY – NLE
* Radisson Cable Beach & Golf Resort in Bahamas
* Red/Blue at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Riddell's Bay Golf and Country Club in Bermuda
* Ridgewood Country Club - Private in Danbury
* Rockaway River Country Club - Private in Denville
* Rockville Links Club - Private in Rockville Centre
Rockwood Hall CC – Tarrytown, NY - NLE
* Rye Golf Club - Private in Rye
Salisbury CC – Nassau County, NY (Eisenhower Park “Red” Course)
Schalren Country Club- Mohawk View, NY (built for the Masonic Order)- NLE
Schenectady CC - Schenectady, NY
* Schuyler Meadows Club - Private in Loudonville
* Seawane Club, The - Private in Hewlett Harbor
Shelter Rock Country Club - Searington, LI - NLE
Sherrewogue – St. James, LI – NLE (Emmet’s 6-hole personal estate course_
South Shore GC – Staten Island. NY
* St. George's Golf & Country Club in East Setauket
St. George Hotel Golf Course - St George, Bermuda
St Lawrence University GC, -done over by RTJsr
St. Mary's Country Club - Private in Saint Marys
St. Regis GC – St. Regis, NY ( possible )
Vanderbilt Estate Golf Course - LI. NY - NLE
Vernon Hills Country Club – NY -NLE
* Wee Burn Country Club - Private in Darien
Westchester Women’s G&TC – Bedford, NY –NLE (also known as Bedford G&TC)
Wheatley Hills GC, Nassau County, NY
* Wheeling Country Club - Private in Wheeling
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Mark,
Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. If Stanford calls tell him to duck next time.
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add:
Harrison- Williams Estate course...9 holes, NLE, Bayville, New York
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Robert,
Will do.
A few course names were mentioned in an article about Emmet’s St. Lawrence GC in Canton NY. A couple possible new ones for the list are:
-TheBriarcliff Lodge layout, where Sarazen served as professional;
-The Briarcliff Country Club course; Pelham, where the P. G. A. final was fought out between Sarazen and Hagen in1923
-Hillcrest
-Rye
I don’t know if the two Briarcliff’s are one in the same , or some course already mentioned, but Hillcrest and Rye could be new.
One other one was Grassy Sprain in Yonkers. A 1966 article about the course says:
Back in 1941 the city took over for unpaid taxes, the old Grassy Sprain Golf Club. This was located on both sides of Central Park Avenue between Tuckahoe Road and Palmer Road and players used a tunnel beneath Central Avenue to reach the second nine holes which were on the west side of Central Avenue. Today the golf course property on the east side of Central is occupied by a shopping center, the Sprain Brook Library, Andrus Memorial Park, and apartment houses. On the west side are the Bryn Mawr Ridge apartment development, another smaller apartment house, the Charles L. Curran Houses, a senior citizens public housing project now nearing completion, School Thirty one on Ravenswood Road, and a shopping center along the intersection of Tuckahoe Road and Central Avenue.
George Bahto once mentioned this course as one that he had driven by many times but didn’t know who built it. Now that this 1920 article has turned up I think the ‘case’ is solved:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5081/5212861680_b7f3e8cc01_b.jpg)
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The Hillcrest golf course was located in Queens, NY,at the intersection of Union and Utopia Turnpikes.
St. John's University occupies the site today.
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Here's a section of the Hillcrest course from 1954. This must have been the last photo of it as St. John's started building on the site in the mid '50s.
The complete view is at www.historicaerials.com
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5207/5212408449_02e7171e19_z.jpg)
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Jim,
I see you beat me to the photo! Here's some more information on Hillcrest.
From the Brooklyn Daily Eagle of 10/1/1922:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Hillcrest1BDE1011922.jpg)
From the Brooklyn Daily Eagle of 4/29/1923:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Hillcrest2BDE4291923.jpg)
From the New York Times of 2/3/1928 announcing its sale to Irving Stringer. There is a good chance that Stringer hired Tilly to redesign the course at this time. He had a relationship with him and the article refers to the course as about to be redone. We are researching it right now and when I know more I'll pass it along:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Hillcrest3NYT231928.jpg)
From the New York Times 4/10/1936. As Jim stated the course was lept open into the 1950s when St. Johns found a "better use" for the land:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/Hillcrest4NYT4101936.jpg)
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Irving Stringer was the pro at places like Ocean club, St. Andrews, NGLA, plus he had an indoor golf school.
Guy got around.
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There was a Briar Hall CC in Briarcliff Manor, Ny that shows an Emmet remodel (no date) with a Tillinghast remodel in 1936.
The course was sold to The Donald and is now Trump National GC.
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Mr. Kennedy,
I see that Harbor Hills (aka Port Jefferson CC) is missing there is not much Emmet left there but was another design that was orginally done by him.
AJ
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Jim and Mark,
As we know, there are a number of courses that Tilly redesigned that were original Emmett designs. I think it only fitting then that the Huntingtom Crescent Club was built on the site where Tilly's original Lilliputt Links private course on the Rainey estate once stood!
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Rye Country Club in Rye, NY is an Emmet course. Several newspaper articles back up the club's info that's posted on their website.
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Emmet's obituary states the he designed 160 golf courses. Here's the list so far, and it includes the courses from C&W.
Only 73 71 70 more to go. :o
Antler’s Golf Club – Fort Jefferson, NY
Battle Island GC – Oswego NY -done over by RTJsr.
Belmont Hills Country Club - Private in St Clairsville
Belmont Manor - Bermuda
Belle Terre – Port Jefferson NY (possibly known as Port Jefferson GC)
* Blue at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
* Blue/Green at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Bonnie Briar Country Club - Private in Larchmont
Broadmoor Country Club - New Rochelle, NY –NLE
Cape Cod CC – Hatchville, Ma.
* Capital Hills at Albany in Albany
Castle Inn GC - Bermuda - NLE
Cherry Valley Club, Garden City, NY
Congressional CC – Bethesda, MD.
Coonamessett GC - N. Falmouth, Ma ( orig. 9 - now Clauson's Inn)
Cooper River Country Club - NJ - NLE
Country Club of Farmington - Farmington, CT
* Dudley Hill Golf Club in Dudley
* East at Mohawk Golf Club - Private in Schenectady
Edison CC, Rexford , NY
East Meadow "Red" -Garden City, NY
* Garden City Golf Club - Private in Garden City
* Glen Head Country Club - Private in Glen Head
GlenWood CC - Farmingdale, NY
* Gold at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
Grassy Sprain GC - Yonkers, NY - NLE
Great Neck G&CC – Great Neck, LI - NLE
* Green/Red at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Greenacres Country Club - Private in Lawrenceville
Green Hill Yacht & CC – Quantico Md.
* Hampshire Country Club - Private in Mamaroneck
Harrison-Williams Estate course...9 holes, NLE, Bayville, New York
Henry F. DuPont Private Course - DE – NLE
Hillcrest GC- Queens, NY - NLE
Hob Nob Hill- Salisbury, Ct –estate course for I.K. Fulton –NLE
Hog Back Mountain Course - NC – NLE?
Hotel Frascate GC - Bermuda - NLE
* Huntington Country Club - Private in Huntington
* Huntington Crescent Club - Private in Huntington
Immergrun GC- Loretto, Pa. – (quite possibly a Donald Ross course)
Iroquois Golf Club- Niskayuna, NY- NLE
Island Golf Links - Garden City, NY (
* Keney Park Golf Club - Public in Hartford
Lawrence GC- Lawrence, NY – NLE?
Leewood GC – Scarsdale, NY –NLE?
Lenox Hill Club. Farmingdale, LI -1923 (Bethpage "Green" course)
Leatherstocking GC, Cooperstown -1909
* Mahopac Golf Club - Private in Mahopac
Manchester (Ct.) CC (1917 Public) - Bendelow/Emmet
Manhasset CC - Manhasset, NY - NLE
Mayflower Golf Course - Tonawanda, NY - NLE
* McGregor Links Country Club in Saratoga Springs
Meadow Brook Club - Westbury, NY
* Mechanicville Golf Club - Semi-Private in Mechanicville
Mowhak CC - Schenectady, NY
* Nassau Country Club - Private in Glen Cove LI
Nassau Golf Club – Nassau, Bahamas –NLE
Northport CC - Northport, NY - NLE
Old Country Club / Flushing Country Club (Flushing, LI, NY) –NLE?
* Pelham Country Club - Private in Pelham Manor
Pomonok CC - Flushing, NY
* Powelton Club, The - Private in Newburgh
Queensboro Links - Astoria, NY - NLE
Queen's Valley Golf Club – Kew Gardens Hills, NY – NLE
* Radisson Cable Beach & Golf Resort in Bahamas
* Red/Blue at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
* Riddell's Bay Golf and Country Club in Bermuda
* Ridgewood Country Club - Private in Danbury
* Rockaway River Country Club - Private in Denville
* Rockville Links Club - Private in Rockville Centre
Rockwood Hall CC – Tarrytown, NY - NLE
* Rye Golf Club - Private in Rye
Salisbury CC – Nassau County, NY (Eisenhower Park “Red” Course)
Schalren Country Club- Mohawk View, NY (built for the Masonic Order)- NLE
Schenectady CC - Schenectady, NY
* Schuyler Meadows Club - Private in Loudonville
* Seawane Club, The - Private in Hewlett Harbor
Sherrewogue – St. James, LI – NLE (Emmet’s 6-hole personal estate course_
South Shore GC – Staten Island. NY
* St. George's Golf & Country Club in East Setauket
St. George Hotel Golf Course - St George, Bermuda
St Lawrence University GC, -done over by RTJsr
St. Mary's Country Club - Private in Saint Marys
St. Regis GC – St. Regis, NY ( possible )
Vanderbilt Estate Golf Course - LI. NY - NLE
Vernon Hills Country Club – NY -NLE
* Wee Burn Country Club - Private in Darien
Westchester Women’s G&TC – Bedrofd, NY –NLE (also known as Bedford G&TC)
Wheatley Hills GC, Nassau County, NY
* Wheeling Country Club - Private in Wheeling
Are you sure you copied all the courses from C&W? Just from a quick look it appears you are missing several, for example Laurelton (36 holes) and Cable Beach. There was a course in Cuba he designed too. You've also got Congressional listed 3 times. Emmet only designed an 18-hole course there. You might also consider separating designs from redesigns at some point.
From what I understand Harbor Hills was built at the site of the former Belle Terre. I'm not sure who designed Harbor Hills - I think it is a relatively modern golf course. There was public course adjacent to Belle Terre where my father was the head greenkeeper for a couple of summers. I believe Alex Findlay was the golf architect of that course.
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"TEPaul,
I've never looked at the manifests, but I know that Emmet traveled abroad (England and Ireland, at least) multiple times around the turn of the century."
David Moriarty:
So do I and it was apparently pretty much annually with Emmet. Many today and many on here do not really seem to understand or appreciate how much some of those people from Emmet's crowd went abroad, or why or for how long.
But it is not all that hard to figure out or find out and the reasons why.
Actually, Devereux Emmet's Irish heritage and his first name is really interesting and telling. There was a group of French aristocrats who hied on into southeast Ireland and settled there many generations ago for some damn reason. One of them was the Devereuxs. My mother's great friend, Antelo Devereux's family was one of them. Antelo had about a 5,000 acre plantation in South Carolina that had been in the family for generations----hunting and all that; massive packs of hunting dogs and such----eg Devereux Emmet's pastime of training hunting dogs in South Carolina and transporting them annually to Ireland and selling them.
I bet the people crossing the Atlantic with Devie and his pack of hunting hounds got a lot of sleep, huh? Have you ever heard a pack of hunting hounds at full bay? It's otherworldly! ;)
The Radnor Hunt is about a half mile from my farm here.
Emmet's great uncle was the Irish rebel Robert Emmet. He and his brother Thomas Emmet (Devereux's great grandfather) plotted with Napoleon in Paris when the latter was planning an invasion of England. When he returned to Ireland Robt Emmet put in motion an armed uprising which included the murder of Lord Kilwarden. Emmet was tried for treason and hanged in 1803. Thomas Emmet migrated to America following his execution and eventually became NY Attorney General.
Normally when you see an odd name like Devereux it has something to do with the mother, or her maiden name, but Emmet's mother's name was Pierson, so perhaps it does go back to the family's dealings in France.
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TMac,
I didn't see Cable Beach in C&W. Laurelton might be hard to find in C&W as it only shows up in the list of courses at the back of the book, it's not listed in Emmet's profile.
The courses with an * next to their name are from the World Golf list posted earlier by Mike and I just copied it verbatim. I see what you mean about Congressional, they have it listed 3 times.
I believe that Harbor Hills, Belle Terre and Port Jefferson CC are the same course. The PJCC website says they've had numerous name changes and several architects over their 100+ years. Willie Tucker did work there in 1912.
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"Normally when you see an odd name like Devereux it has something to do with the mother, or her maiden name, but Emmet's mother's name was Pierson, so perhaps it does go back to the family's dealings in France."
I'm not sure I would call the name Devereux an odd name; it's just French, even if some may think everything French is a bit odd anyway. ;)
But a name like Devereux Emmet does sound sort of odd since it is clearly of two distinct national heritages. Emmet's first name may go back to his mother's mother, or her mother's mother. Some historians often don't pay enough attention to the so-called "distaff side" (female side) as opposed to the "spear side" (male side) and the various significances of it, particularly in some national heritages.
It is not that unusual in certain national cultures and heritages for the family to take on and maintain as their surname a combination of the husband and wife, generally as a hyphenated surname, and particularly in the royal or aristocratic class (particularly Mid-European and Russian aristocratic heritages). I don't know it for sure but it is probably the result of various historic ramifications to do with inheritance and estates and so forth and so on.
I have only one full sibling---a sister. But I also have a half brother who is also my second cousin (his mother and my mother were cousins with the maiden surname of Clark). My half brother is about ten years older than me and about ten years ago he did something with his name I have never really heard of before. His real name was James W. Paul; his mother's maiden name was Hortense Clark. About ten years ago he decided to formally changed his name to James W. Paul Clark. When I asked him why he did that he said that he felt his surname had honored his father's name for sixty years and he felt like from now on his surname should also honor his mother's maiden name!
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I don't know about Emmet's genealogy, but the Devereux name has existed in Ireland since the Normans, especially in Wexford.
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Jim
The original 9-hole course at Belle Terre was built in 1907 by Alex Findlay, and then at some point in the 20's Emmet expanded it to 18 holes. The club went under during the Depression. In 1955 Alfred Tull designed a new 18-hole course for the new Harbor Hills CC. There was also 9-hole public or semi-public course at Port Jefferson, that is where my father worked. I believe it was called Port Jefferson, and that may be the course Tucker designed in 1912.
You must have different version of C&W because mine has Laurelton, Cable Beach and CC of Santiago (Cuba).
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I don't know about Emmet's genealogy, but the Devereux name has existed in Ireland since the Normans, especially in Wexford.
Jim
I did not realize Devereux was Irish family name. There were several Devereux involved in the insurrection including James Devereux who played a major role. James Devereux and Thomas Addis Emmet (Devereux's great grandfather) were exiled at the same time. I believe James Devereux went to France.
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TMac,
Here's the article about Tucker at Belleport.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A02E1DA1E3CE633A25751C0A9609C946396D6CF
My C&W is from 1984, the 3rd printing. The profile section is botched up in a few places, for instance, Mackenzie's is on pg 193.To find his remodels you have to flip to page 195. Karl Littens' remodel heading is found under Langford, Maples under Litten's etc.
They really screwed up the L's and the M's in mine.
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Jim
My version is the 'Architects of Golf' from 1993.
Golf magazine reported (2/1907) Alex Findlay had laid out a new 9-hole course at Belle Terre. NYTimes reported (7/7/1907) that the course was nearly ready for play and NYT again in 1909 (5/16/1909) reported the course was one of the longest and most picturesque nine-hole courses in the US. It sound like Tucker made some improvements to that course in 1912.
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"I don't know about Emmet's genealogy, but the Devereux name has existed in Ireland since the Normans, especially in Wexford."
Jim Kennedy:
That is exactly right; Wexford and southeastern Ireland. However, even if not perhaps connected by marriage, up until the last two generations at least the same Emmets and Devereuxes were pretty closely connected in New York and Boston and particularly around Dark Harbor, Maine.
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Another Emmet for the list, Shelter rock in Searington, LI built in 1922.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5216289238_eb029ed7aa.jpg)
The area today:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5044/5215721645_dd1791c65d.jpg)
The last reference to the club that I saw was in 1953. Their pro, Alex Ednie, drove a golf ball through the 500 page Queensboro phone book and the ball continued on another 100 yards.
edit: Looks more like it lay fallow during WW11 and eventually turned into a housing development by 1950.
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what WHAT?
Mayflower Golf Course - Tonawanda, NY - NLE
What is this and why was D.E. so far west in New York state?
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Interesting...http://www.rockleigh.org/recreation/golf/Tull_abc.htm
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Here is the list from the later version of C&W:
Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Edison CC (NY)
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)
Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)
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I see that St Regis was listed as a possible. I think this article from the Lake Placid News of Sept 29, 1922 confirms Emmet's involvement
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/EmmetStRegisLakePlacidNews.jpg)
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Neil
In 1925 the NY Times reported the president of the St. Regis River GC was checking on the progress of the new 18-hole course, and that work was being hurried with hopes that it would be ready that season. The 1927 Golf Guide lists St. Regis River as a 9-hole course, 2780 yds (the club dates back to 1910) with another nine under construction. The 1930-31 Golf Guide list the course as 9-holes. I'm wondering if Emmet's course was ever in play for whatever reason.
I believe Riddell's Bay is actually a Raynor course, perhaps George Bahto or someone else can confirm that. Beaver Dam in suburban DC was an Emmet design from 1922-23.
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St Regis clubhouse:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5217443223_d76cc2f90d.jpg)
The St. Regis Golf Club was on Keese Mills Road in Otisville. It was a nine hole course constructed by Paul Smith some time after 1858 for the guests of Paul Smith's Hotel. There had been an earlier hotel golf course that was located on Osgood Pond, but was too sandy and too far from the hotel to be satisfactory. The golf house located at Osgood Pond was used by local boy and girl scouts in 1932.
Local residents remember seeing boats from the camps on the St. Regis Lakes coming down the St. Regis River and stopping at docks near the seventh green; the golfers would blow their horns and the caddies would leave the clubhouse and go and haul the players' golf clubs up the hill.
In the winter, local children used the golf course for a ski area; the number two green had a hill that came down to Keese Mills Road that was their favorite place to ski.
Madaline Jaquis’s husband Bob caddied at the golf course in the late 1930s to early 1940s, especially for Mr. Davies, one of Marjorie Merriweather Post's husbands. And Ralph Blanchard caddied at the golf course in the 1940s for Mr. Davies and for Bob Hoe.
Emil Block, a pro golfer, ran the golf course and taught golf. At the clubhouse there was a bar and a pro shop. There was a nice golf house there at one time, that has recently been torn down by Paul Smith's College.
At one time they started to build an 18 hole golf course that was later abandoned. A large pump brought water up from the St. Regis River to water the course.
The golf course was in use for 54 years; it was closed in 1949. When it closed, the college built a ski tow at number two green that was still running in the late 1940s that was run by Ralph Blanchard for two or three years. Later, the ski tow was moved to Jenkins Mountain; the road to the Visitors Interpretive Center is the road led to the ski tow.
Source
•Donaldson, Deborah J., Adirondack Daily Enterprise, October 20, 2009.
It doesn't seem like the course was completed, according to this account. I went back to look at an article I posted in relation to St. Regis, and suprisingly there was another Emmet course mentioned on another part of the page. It was in Pawling, NY, and the article mentions that work was started by the members under Emmet's direction.
http://tinyurl.com/28jucaz
I did find another article from the same time frame that mentions the Pawling course, but I haven't seen any articles saying that the course ever opened.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5217421631_51a379c781.jpg)
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Here's a listing of Emmet's courses w/Tull. Quite a few haven't been mentioned as of yet.
http://tinyurl.com/36kdmob
One in particular, the Bedford Golf and Tennis Club, was originally to be known as the "Westchester Women's Golf and Tennis Club".
Rich Goodale's mom played there on occasion. An article about the course can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/3a5rf52
If you'd like to see the 1934 aerial of the Lady's course plug 03985 into the "search all collections" box (upper r.hand corner of the page) at the CT. Library site.
http://tinyurl.com/2u6rllo
Westchester Women's and Bedford I believe were separate clubs and golf courses. Westchester Women's became Middle Patent GC in 1934; after that I'm not sure what happened to it. It was located in Banksville, NY.
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TMac,
Three years ago I wrote to the town about the course. The historian, Doris Finch Watson, wrote back saying that the WWG&TC was indeed in Banksville. The clubhouse (2007) was now being used as a restaurant, La Cremaillere, and the ancient caddy shack had long ago been converted into a private home.
Before 1940 the name and operation changed to The Westchester Golf Club and men were participants.
edit: My mistake about Bedford. I was remembering the confusion in 2007 when we first came across the course in Banksville. No one knew what it was and the Bedford name came up. Eventually we found out the mistake and that's when I wrote the town.
I wonder if the name "Middle Patent" was used as a nickname to head off any confusion, if, as the historian says, the club changed its name to Westchester Golf Club.
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I have started a blog that provides more information regarding Devereux Emmet. I have been interested in his work for nearly 20 years. I am very appreciative to Paul Turner, Evan Green, Mike Sweeney and Patty Moran (the angel from Basking Ridge) for their advice and support.
Mark
www.devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/
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Terrific work and great discussion gentlemen.
Its amazing to see how good this site can be.
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I have started a blog that provides more information regarding Dev Emmet. I have been interested in his work for nearly 20 years. I am very appreciative to Paul Turner, Evan Green, Mike Sweeney and Patty Moran (the angel from Basking Rdge) for their advice and support.
Mark
www.devereuxemmetsociety@blogspot.com
http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/
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Mark,
Thanks for the essay, it gets right to the important points, i.e, Emmet was there early, often, and in fine form.
TMac,
There was a course in the Middle Patent section of NY that was built in 1928 and called North Castle. It became The Embassy club for awhile and then Bellair and it was located in the general area of what is now known as The Canyon Club. Could it have also been known as "Middle Patent GC"?
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Does anyone know if Devereux Emmet ever had a profession other than buying and training hunting dogs and selling them abroad and then golf architecture or did he essentially just do those two things in his career and lead the life of a sportsman?
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Mark,
Thanks for the essay, it gets right to the important points, i.e, Emmet was there early, often, and in fine form.
TMac,
There was a course in the Middle Patent section of NY that was built in 1928 and called North Castle (page 30). It became The Embassy club for awhile and then Bellair and it was located in the general area of what is now known as The Canyon Club. Could it have also been known as "Middle Patent GC"?
Jim
I found reference to Middle Patent GC in this short history of North Castle. I also found several mention of the MPGC in the NY Times. I believe the Canyon Club was at a different location nearby, and is still in existence under a different name.
http://www.northcastleny.com/planning/Historical%20Society%20Documents/Booklet%20Volume%2035%20-%202008%20-%20The%20NCHS%20(2).pdf
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Emmet's obituary in the NY Times was titled "Devereux Emmet, Realty Man, Dies"
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I am interested in learning more about the Charles Schwab Estate course referenced above. It's now know as Immergrun GC, in Loretto, Pa, on the campus of St. Francis University. Ross or Emmet? The website lists it as a Ross:
http://www.immergrungolfclub.com/
When I was at Penn State in the 1960s, I had some classes at Schwab Auditorium, in particular the famous Theater Arts 71- History of the Movies. I liked the architecture of the building and its website has refreshed my recollection of who this Charles Schwab was:
http://www.cpa.psu.edu/venues/schwab.html
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Mark,
Thanks for all your efforts. Very well done on the blog. For a good article on HCC take a look at the current issue of Met Golfer Magazine....RHE
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Another thing I've always been quite curious about with Devereux Emmet, and probably Walter Travis too and with Macdonald is that he did select them in the very beginning as his primary "committee" for NGLA (with Whigam) which began to actually take shape in organization around 1906 but yet Macdonald's primary golf club between the time he moved from Chicago to New York (1900) was Garden City Golf Club but yet I am not aware that he was ever involved in any way with its architecture. That seems odd to me.
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I've added Shelter Rock, Hillcrest, Beaver Dam and Westchester Women's. What other courses do I need to add (or subtract)? Huntington Crescent was 36 holes. I read somewhere where they were comparing Huntington Crescent-West to PV and Pebble Beach among the best courses in the country. I'm not sure if the course was in that league, but it got my attention.
Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Beaver Dam (Md)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Edison CC (NY)
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Hillcrest GC (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC East/West (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Shelter Rock CC (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Westechester Women's G&TC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)
Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)
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TMac,
Thanks for the North Castle info. Ms Watson never mentioned the name change from Weschester Women's to Middle Patent in the letter she sent me back then.
There are 86 courses on your list and 91 on the other (if I can still count).
Steve Shaffer,
There are a couple of replies back on page two about it.
On a thread other than this one John Yerger of Sunnehanna GC said it's a Ross, as does the club's website. He also said that he's confident the club has an architectural plan for the course. Also on that thread Craig Rokke, Chris Blakely, and I think a couple of others, said it's an Emmet, and that bookeeping records from the Schwab estate exist that verify the payment to Emmet.
Ron Whitten has also said it's Emmet.
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Mayflower (not the Rick Reilly course) is not coming up in the town of Tonawanda(NY)'s historical records. I am in contact with three of the town historians and they are convinced that it is a mistake. Can anyone make other suggestions? Can anyone consult golfing publications from 1930, the supposed year of its building, to determine if such a course ever existed?
Ron M.
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Emmet did nine new holes and revamped the existing nine at the Rockaway River CC in Denville, NJ, in 1922 according to the NJSGA.
http://www.njsga.org/index.php?tl=news&sl=newsarchive&include=newsdetail&newsid=23
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Be curious to hear from Tom Mac and Jim Kennedy, what courses do you think are the Top 3 of so Emmet courses that can be/should be restored using St George's as a model of sorts.
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Mike,
Congressional seems to be his most noted course
Glen Head for its historic significance as WNG&TC
McGregor Links - Every time I read this article I say to myself that I would regularly and happily make the four hour round trip to play there (especially in August) ;) http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1921/gi152j.pdf
Hob Nob Hill - impossibility, but I could walk to it when I didn't feel like driving up to Saratoga. ;D
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"Glen Head for its historic significance as WNG&TC"
Why would Devereux Emmet have been the "secretary" of the original WNG&TC? What does that mean? He was, you know, because I have all the original incorporation papers of the WNG&TC right here on my computer.
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TEPaul,
Maybe they asked him. ;)
He would have been the ideal candidate to be the administrator of the club as his social standing and contacts in the business world would bring instant credibility to the fledgling organization.
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Be curious to hear from Tom Mac and Jim Kennedy, what courses do you think are the Top 3 of so Emmet courses that can be/should be restored using St George's as a model of sorts.
That is a very good question and I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer it. I love St. George's, Huntington and Belmont Hills (here in Ohio), but I'd rather submit to the Emmet experts like Chris Blakely, Mark, and Daniel Wexler. I asked Chris several years ago on GCA what he thought were DE's top half dozen best designs:
!. St. Georges
2. Leatherstocking
3. Wee Burn
4. Mohawk
5. McGregor Links
6. Huntington Cresent West
7. Meadowbrook
8. Congressional
9. Seawane
10. Pelham
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Tricks - a search of the American Golfer archives up to 1935 doesn't bring up Mayflower either. A lot of entries though for the Mayflower Cup, played there in Buffalo/upstate since the early 1900s.
Peter
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Jim Kennedy:
Of course they asked him. I doubt he just told them he was going to be that without them asking him. ;)
I have and have seen all the WNC incorporation and setup documents and my recollection is the principles and the entire makeup of the club originally was all women. All those documents are sophisticated for sure. Perhaps Emmet was also a lawyer and none of us have realized that.
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According to a Boston Globe article (July 2, 1905) about the Emmet family in Ireland and America, Emmet was an attorney.
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Tricks - a search of the American Golfer archives up to 1935 doesn't bring up Mayflower either. A lot of entries though for the Mayflower Cup, played there in Buffalo/upstate since the early 1900s.
Peter
Emmet designed a course at the "Mayflower Club" in Huguenot, Staten Island around 1930.
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Be curious to hear from Tom Mac and Jim Kennedy, what courses do you think are the Top 3 of so Emmet courses that can be/should be restored using St George's as a model of sorts.
That is a very good question and I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer it. I love St. George's, Huntington and Belmont Hills (here in Ohio), but I'd rather submit to the Emmet experts like Chris Blakely, Mark, and Daniel Wexler. I asked Chris several years ago on GCA what he thought were DE's top half dozen best designs:
!. St. Georges
2. Leatherstocking
3. Wee Burn
4. Mohawk
5. McGregor Links
6. Huntington Cresent West
7. Meadowbrook
8. Congressional
9. Seawane
10. Pelham
Wee Burn (CT) keeps coming up in a bunch of categories. If I understand it from Mark, the original routing is pretty much in place and when I drove by it recently it looked like a nice piece of land.
Seawane did a renovation well documented here and I doubt they would reverse it. I have not played Pelham and they can't reverse I-95 but perhaps a partial restoration is possible. They along with Wee Burn would appear to be healthy clubs financially due to location(s).
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Tricks - a search of the American Golfer archives up to 1935 doesn't bring up Mayflower either. A lot of entries though for the Mayflower Cup, played there in Buffalo/upstate since the early 1900s.
Peter
Emmet designed a course at the "Mayflower Club" in Huguenot, Staten Island around 1930.
I am guessing that is the current South Shore GC managed by American Golf for NYC. It is listed as a Tull course:
http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/course.aspx?course=822545
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Mike,
Recently I was using the comparison feature on the Historic Aerials site and Wee Burn's 1934 footprint/routing/bunkering scheme is little different than today's, so it's got that going for it.
I found this blog by the Town of Pelham historian. There are a dozen or so rememberances about golf courses in Pelham on this list.
http://www.historicpelham.com/BlogArchive/BlogIndex.htm
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When Emmet and Tull were partners was Emmet still actively involved in design? In other words did they collaborate or did they work separately, or were those Emmet & Tull courses really Tull courses?
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TMac,
I don't know the answer to your question, but I.K. Fulton (Hob Nob Hill) was friends with the Warners, Rands and Sherwoods, all residents of Salisbury and family members of Emmet. I've seen where the guys who know the most about Emmet say that HNH was his last golf course.
The family connection could have brought him here, as it did to Edison CC.
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Tom Mac,
In 1929 Huntington CC had Emmet, Emmet, and Tull do the renovation of Dev's 1910 design. Tull was in charge of the construction side of the reno with Dev sr doing the design...RHE
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In one of the articles I have about the Schalgren course it says that Emmet was at the course with Tull in the second week of July, 1930.
It also says that: "At present he(Emmet) is building the 18-hole course of the Atlantic City Golf andYacht club."
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Steve Shaffer,
An American Golfer obit/memorial article about Emmet from 1935 lists some of his courses.
From the 'personal' section:
In addition he laid out and built private courses for Charles M. Schwab, Harrison Williams, Thomas Fortune Ryan, H. F. Dupont, and Mrs. Graham Fair Vanderbilt.
That seems like it would be Immergrun, if they have it correct.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1935/ag385e.pdf
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Jim,
Thanks but has anyone contacted or visited St. Francis U concerning the Ross plans?
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I've added Rockaway River.
Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Beaver Dam (Md)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Rockaway River CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Edison CC (NY)
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Hillcrest GC (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC East/West (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Shelter Rock CC (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Westechester Women's G&TC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)
Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)
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Mayflower (not the Rick Reilly course) is not coming up in the town of Tonawanda(NY)'s historical records. I am in contact with three of the town historians and they are convinced that it is a mistake. Can anyone make other suggestions? Can anyone consult golfing publications from 1930, the supposed year of its building, to determine if such a course ever existed?
Ron M.
Mayflower CC is the current South Shore GC on Staten Island, NY. It is mistakenly listed as a Tull Course. Emmet designed it and Tull handled the field aspect of the project.
Chris
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I'm a little surprised Chris Blakely has not chimed in...he has been the most dedicated Emmet admirer over the years.
Tom,
I have been quite busy lately. I corrected one item on the thread that I new off the top of my head / from my research. I have a very detailed Emmet course list and will try to check my records when I get a chance.
Thanks,
Chris
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This article makes mention af a LLoyd's Neck golf club, along with an air school, tennis, cottages, etc, and of course, Emmet as the designer of the links. I've seen several similar articles that range between 1915 and 1919, but nothing after that. Sounds like the idea faded away, or perhaps it's known by another name today. That part of L.I. has quite a few courses in the same general area.
http://tinyurl.com/266ubaz
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According to one of our former contributors to this website who was a wonderful and informed participant who now chooses not to participate and who has for years been interested in Devereux Emmet, Lake Isle and Vernon Hills is one and the same golf course.
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Jim,
The LLoyd Neck Club fell thru and was never built. Intersting though that in the 1950's the Huntington CC was negotiating to exchange the currant 144 acres for property about the same size on the Long Island sound in Lloyd Neck. This fell thru too...RHE
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Thanks Robert. I thought as much as there was such a short span of info on it.
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.
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TEP,
I have seen an article or two saying that VH was formerly LI., I haven't seen any articles on Vernon Hills earlier than '40ish although they could very well exist. If it's an Emmet, what was the name of the course when he built it?
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According to one of our former contributors to this website who was a wonderful and informed participant who now chooses not to participate and who has for years been interested in Devereux Emmet, Lake Isle and Vernon Hills is one and the same golf course.
Would that be Wayne Morrison? I had no idea he was interested in Emmet...he was always so entertained by your long running joke about Emmet being gay.
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"Would that be Wayne Morrison? I had no idea he was interested in Emmet...he was always so entertained by your long running joke about Emmet being gay."
Tom MacWood:
So far your track record on guessing is no better than your track record on the accuracy of your historical attribution analysis. Do you want to keep going to see if it's three strikes and you're out? Belay that, it already is;
1. HH Barker (Merion East)
2. Willie Campbell (Myopia)
3. North Shore (Robert White)
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From the April 24, 1898 issue of the Brooklyn Eagle:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/RLY1.jpg)
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Philip:
That article has to be completely wrong about GCGC as Tom MacWood claims Alex Findlay actually laid out the course!
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"TEP,
I have seen an article or two saying that VH was formerly LI., I haven't seen any articles on Vernon Hills earlier than '40ish although they could very well exist. If it's an Emmet, what was the name of the course when he built it?"
Jim:
I have not heard of the club but it's my understanding he's saying it was originally a private course known as Vernon Hills in Tuckahoe/Eastchester NY that was eventually bought by the town of Eastchester for its residents.
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TEP
You have continually tried to make a mockery of Emmet in the past please try to refrain from that here. This is a very good thread. I don't believe I was the first to point out that Findlay advised Emmet and Hubbell at GCGC. George Hubbell is another interesting but unknown figure in golf architecture. I believe he was president of the Garden City Company, and he was also involved in the design of Salisbury Links and Glenwood (now known as North Shore). He may have been involved in others but those three I know.
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The Lake Isle course in Eastchester was known as Vernon Hills, and its website says Emmet was the designer. Lake Isle was known for awhile as Lakeview CC when Gene Sarazen leased it in the mid '30s.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5007/5229659756_b42488153a.jpg)
Prior to Saracen's involvement the club was known as Mt. Vernon CC. MVCC did not start life at this site, it was originally located in Mt. Vernon, somewhere between the Fleetwood and Chester Hill Park sections of that town. MVCC moved to the Eastchester site in the '20s and built a new course on a site that had been used by Siwanoy and Sunningdale before they landed on their present day sites.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5166/5229659752_92715987f7.jpg)
..... no other menton of Emmet yet.
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Just happened across this article about Mayflower, thought I'd post it:
http://tinyurl.com/3a8hegf
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Jim,
Considering the date the course began construction (August 1929) do you think the paucity of information on it may be due to the stock market crash and beginnings of the Great Depression in NOvember and maybe it was then never completed?
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Phil,
I think the conclusion was drawn earlier, By David Moriarty and Mike Sweeney, that the course was built and is now known as South Shore GC.
No one posted any paper at the time so I thought it wouldn't hurt to do so if and when any was found.
I just found another possible Emmet called Green Meadow CC. Today it's known as Willow Ridge CC. I was having a hard time finding it's location until I read an article that mentioned Green Meadow as abutting Apawamis. ::)
The club's website attributes it to Maurice J McCarthy Sr., but one article that I read stated the members were looking at Tillinghast, Travis or Emmet to design the course.
Here's part of another article that says it was Emmet.
THE EVENING POST: NEW YORK, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 6, 1918
After serving In the capacity of caddiemaster for many years, George Hughes is leaving the Apawamis Club to become professional at the neighboring Green Meadow organization. He will enter upon his new duties next month. The Green Meadow course is new, having been laid out by Devereux Emmet, and, according to the latter, will present one of the best tests of golf to be found anywhere.
edit: The only reference to McCarthy I have found at Green Meadow was one about his son, and here's a part of that article :
He (McCarthy Jr.) is a member of t h e Old Flatbush Club, of which his father, a veteran among golf professionals and architects, is manager.
The Green Meadow Club in Rye, whose fairways parallel the famed ninth at Apawamis, has enrolled Maurice as a member.
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Jim
This is a great find worth exploring. There seems to be a ruggedness and routing interest at Willow Ridge that has affininties with Emmets other work in this county
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Peter Lees claimed to have designed a golf course called Greenmeadow. Lees was working with Tillinghast around that time although I don't believe Tilly ever listed it as one of his.
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TMac,
I haven’t found any mention of Tillie/Lees in connection with Green Meadow. The closest I could place Lees was right next door at Apawamis in 1920, where he was making some substantial changes to the greens at the 4th, 5th, 8th, and the 18th.
I’ve also come across a 1928 article mentioning that “…a group of young college and professional men of the University Golf Club”….. bought the old Turnpike Golf and Country Club, near Great Neck Long Island and that new ‘links’ were “….laid out and developed last spring under the direction of Devereux Emmet, golf architect”.
I don't know if this place is something 'new' or it's something that's already known, but by a different name.
I also found a 1926 article that places Emmet in Oswego, NY, planning changes to nearly all of their greens (and possibly some re-routing) for the purpose of modernizing the course. OCC was started in 1897 and Tillinghast did some re-modeling of this course in 1915.
edit: Still no mention of Lees, but I did find that Green Meadow was successively known as Ferncrest, Hasty Brook, Willows and Harrison
Country Clubs before becoming Willow Ridge.
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http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/2010/12/ridgewood-country-club-aerial-from.html (http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/2010/12/ridgewood-country-club-aerial-from.html)
I posted this over on Mark's Emmet Blog, just curious from Mark, Jim Kennedy or others how much Emmet is left at Ridgewood in Danbury, CT as I have never played it. With Cornish and Rulewich coming in behind, it seems like a similar pattern as some other more famous courses.
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TMac,
I haven’t found any mention of Tillie/Lees in connection with Green Meadow. The closest I could place Lees was right next door at Apawamis in 1920, where he was making some substantial changes to the greens at the 4th, 5th, 8th, and the 18th.
I’ve also come across a 1928 article mentioning that “…a group of young college and professional men of the University Golf Club”….. bought the old Turnpike Golf and Country Club, near Great Neck Long Island and that new ‘links’ were “….laid out and developed last spring under the direction of Devereux Emmet, golf architect”.
I don't know if this place is something 'new' or it's something that's already known, but by a different name.
I also found a 1926 article that places Emmet in Oswego, NY, planning changes to nearly all of their greens (and possibly some re-routing) for the purpose of modernizing the course. OCC was started in 1897 and Tillinghast did some re-modeling of this course in 1915.
edit: Still no mention of Lees, but I did find that Green Meadow was successively known as Ferncrest, Hasty Brook, Willows and Harrison
Country Clubs before becoming Willow Ridge.
In the 1926 Golf Guide they list a University Golf Club in Great Neck, Established in 1923, Nine holes and 3000 yards.
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Mike,
I've only been there one time, and it was so long ago (25yrs. or so) that if you told me Emmet built the course I'd of asked "the clown?" ;D
(http://tinyurl.com/2ulch5k)
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DavidM,
This article appears to confirm the other reports that Emmet was at the Antlers club.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5090/5238192531_89d8c480ac_b.jpg)
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I believe William Tucker was credited for Antlers in C&W. I remember an article written by Ron Whitten in which there was a schematic of a green and greenside bunker at the course shaped like a deer-head and antlers. I wonder if Emmet was responsible.
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According to one of our former contributors to this website who was a wonderful and informed participant who now chooses not to participate and who has for years been interested in Devereux Emmet, Lake Isle and Vernon Hills is one and the same golf course.
You don't need this mystery contributor . . . Lake Isle and Vernon Hills are the same course. However, the Lake Isle today is a far cry from what it used to be after a Stephen Kay renovation.
Chris
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Be curious to hear from Tom Mac and Jim Kennedy, what courses do you think are the Top 3 of so Emmet courses that can be/should be restored using St George's as a model of sorts.
That is a very good question and I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer it. I love St. George's, Huntington and Belmont Hills (here in Ohio), but I'd rather submit to the Emmet experts like Chris Blakely, Mark, and Daniel Wexler. I asked Chris several years ago on GCA what he thought were DE's top half dozen best designs:
!. St. Georges
2. Leatherstocking
3. Wee Burn
4. Mohawk
5. McGregor Links
6. Huntington Cresent West
7. Meadowbrook
8. Congressional
9. Seawane
10. Pelham
This list was prior to have the pleasure of playing Huntington Country Club which is easily one of his top three courses that still exist.
Chris
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You can add the following courses to your list:
Webster Dudley GC (FNA Nichols College GC), MA
Port Jefferson CC, NY (Emmet did the original 9 holes with Tull)
Manchester CC, CT
The Edison Club is 27 holes
Laurelton GC was two courses
South Shore GC (NY)
Copake Lake CC (NY)
That's the one's I quickly noticed were missing - great work so far. ;)
Chris
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TMac,
Yes, it was Tucker for the original course (9) in 1900, Emmet in 1923. I haven't seen anything about how much of the original was kept.
Thought these might be interesting. Emmet's estate, Sherrewogue, on L.I.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5003/5241878607_1d7a225d64_b.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5006/5242502832_ed5aefbbec.jpg)
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http://www.metgolfer-digital.com/metgolfer/20100809?pg=43#pg43
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Kyle,
I wouldn't doubt that Copake Lake CC could be an Emmet, but what new evidence has been brought out to show that it is? Last I recall no one had found anything concrete.
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Kyle,
I wouldn't doubt that Copake Lake CC could be an Emmet, but what new evidence has been brought out to show that it is? Last I recall no one had found anything concrete.
I have not the foggiest idea. I just thought I'd pass the article along. My knowledge of Emmet's work is confined to a single round at St. George's in October of this year -- and you can bet I'm eager to seek out more of his creations. :o
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Here is an updated list.
Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Manchester CC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Beaver Dam (Md)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Nichols College GC (Ma) [Webster Dudley
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Rockaway River CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Copake Lake CC (NY)
The Edison C (NY), 27 holes
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Hillcrest GC (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC East/West (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Port Jefferson CC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Shelter Rock CC (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
South Shore GC (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Westechester Women's G&TC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)
Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)
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Chris
I've not seen a reference to a Port Jefferson CC. Is that the Belle Terre C? I believe Belle Terre was founded in 1907; originally nine holes.
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Edited!
Some very detailed info on the course in Great Neck, courtesy of the Feb 1, 1919 issue of the NY Tribune.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/900pyc.jpg)
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Joe,
If you look back at page two you'll see a 1918 article I found about GN.
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Joe,
Thank you for posting so many great artcles re Golden Age layouts. Its possible that you're confusing Glen Head (originally Women's National) circa 1923 ,with Great Neck (NLE) mentioned in this 1919 article. Glen Head is very much alive/ intact and has some gorgeous rolling terrain.
Mark
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Joe,
Thank you for posting so many great artcles re Golden Age layouts. Its possible that you're confusing Glen Head (originally Women's National) circa 1923 ,with Great Neck (NLE) mentioned in this 1919 article. Glen Head is very much alive/ intact and has some gorgeous rolling terrain.
Mark
D'oh!
Homer J. Simpson
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Here is an updated list.
Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Manchester CC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Beaver Dam (Md)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Nichols College GC (Ma) [Webster Dudley
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Rockaway River CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Copake Lake CC (NY)
The Edison C (NY), 27 holes
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Great Neck G&CC (short course) (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Hillcrest GC (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC East/West (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Port Jefferson CC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Shelter Rock CC (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
South Shore GC (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Westechester Women's G&TC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)
Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Great Neck G&CC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)
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TMac,
Battle Island GC, Oswego, NY
Schalren CC, Mohawk View, NY (not Mohawk CC)
Iroquois GC, Niskayuna, NY
Green Hill Yacht &CC
Old Country Club aka Flushing CC, Flushing LI
Silver Spring CC, Ridgefield, CT
Antlers GC, Fort Jefferson, NY
Capital Hills, Albany, NY
Brentwood GC, Islip, Li
Cherry Valley Club, Garden City, Li
Coonamessett GC, N. Falmouth, Ma- now Clauson’s Inn
Manhasset GC, Manhasset ,NY
St. Regis GC, NY (planned, can’t find other info)
Pawling G&CC, Pawling, NY, (planned, can’t find other info)
Oswego CC Ny, remodel
Green Meadow nka Willow Ridge, NY
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Did this Emmet course ever get built? This from the March 30, 1919 edition of the NY Tribune.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2gvinew.jpg)
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According to this article it sounds like it was never built, WWI did it in.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FA0B16F63C5D14738DDDA00994DE405B818EF1D3
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Joe,
This course was discussed on page 5 of this thread (#140). Robert Emmons gave a few reasons why it didn't (#142).
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Mike S,
Your question about Ridgewood, CT...which I've played once every six years for the last 30
I'm not in a position to say what has been left of Emmet or not, but like...
Farmington
Rockaway river
Briarcliff Manor (later Briar Hall, now Trump National - Briarcliff)
Hampshire
Leewood
Vernon Hills (now Lake Isle)
and
Bonnie Briar
these are terrible pieces of property for a golf course. All rocks, wicked slopes and heartbreak hills. OB all over the place...Ridgewood is an unfun place for a medal round of golf.
As a matter of fact, outside of Rockaway Hunt and Mahopac, I've never been in love with what an Emmet course is.
cheers
vk
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This is the first I've read about proposed work by Emmet at the pre-Banks Hackensack site, this from the April 10, 1922 edition of the NY Evening Post:
(http://i53.tinypic.com/10onuk1.jpg)
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That's not the same site where Banks built, correct?
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That's not the same site where Banks built, correct?
AFAIK, correct.
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Played St Georges this morning and Adam has the place in spectacular condition
I want to show it off a bit
I can take three guys out on weds june 1
pm me if interested
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Back on the 3rd page of this thread, reply #101, Tom MacWood wrote that he thought the Riddell's Bay club in Bermuda was a Seth Raynor course. I hate to do this to Devereux, but here is some evidence that suggests TMac was 1/2 correct ;) in his belief:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6033/6363668913_cfe95f39a3_b.jpg)
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Jim,
Thanks for posting this ! I believe George Bahto has also found documents linking Seth Raynor to Riddels Bay .
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Mark,
You're welcome.
It also looks like CBM was going to be planning the never-built Lloyd's Neck course in 1916, a couple of years before Emmet's involvement in 1918.
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6091/6363978577_c692944e4e_b.jpg)
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Though it appears I'm over a year behind the times, it is great to hear about the establishment of a historic society for Devereux Emmet. Long overdue.
I will post a link to the site on the Travis Society blogsite, and perhaps we can have a joint get-together some time in the future. Not sure that Travis and Emmet ever resolved their differences and had a reconciliation. I think it's time it happened.
Ed Homsey
www.travissociety.com
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I have it that Dev Emmett redid the original 1921 Macdonald / Raynor design in 1926
"The Club aims to provide Golfers with an exceptionally attractive Course and Mr. Devereaux Emmett visited Bermuda at the close of 1925 for the purpose of supplying a new layout for the course, which is to be greatly improved and developed in the near future, the Legislature of Bermuda having voted a loan of 12,000 pounds sterling to assist the Club in its service to visiting and local golfers. During the past season the daily Green Fee was eight shillings (about $1.92) and possibly the fee for the present season will be approximately this amount."
eight shillings - I love it
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Though it appears I'm over a year behind the times, it is great to hear about the establishment of a historic society for Devereux Emmet. Long overdue.
I will post a link to the site on the Travis Society blogsite, and perhaps we can have a joint get-together some time in the future. Not sure that Travis and Emmet ever resolved their differences and had a reconciliation. I think it's time it happened.
Ed Homsey
www.travissociety.com
With both involved at Garden City this of course would be the only logical venue. Can someone please set it up? ;D
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This is an article about an Emmet course named Arrow Brook:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6107/6372630261_7425151c69_z.jpg)
There are more articles on it that show it was a 'working' club, with tournaments and social functions; its golf course was closed in 1938 when Fiorello LaGuardia used it as his summer city hall during the World's Fair; plans made in 1941 for it (and its neighbor, Queen's Valley) were for 800 'Tailor Made' homes, although those plans seem to have fallen through as it, and several other sites in NY, were proposed for temporary post war housing in 1946:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6222/6372735097_5148a80cee.jpg)
Today the site looks like this:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6224/6372822191_ff52661cae.jpg)
Arrow Brook sat at the junction of 69th and Main.
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Here is an updated list.
Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Manchester CC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Beaver Dam (Md)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Nichols College GC (Ma) [Webster Dudley
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Rockaway River CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Copake Lake CC (NY)
The Edison C (NY), 27 holes
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Great Neck G&CC (short course) (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Hillcrest GC (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC East/West (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Port Jefferson CC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Shelter Rock CC (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
South Shore GC (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Westechester Women's G&TC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)
Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Great Neck G&CC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)
What is the history of Schenectady CC, is it what is known today as Schenectady Municipal?
Dan
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Here is an updated list.
Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Manchester CC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Beaver Dam (Md)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Nichols College GC (Ma) [Webster Dudley
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Rockaway River CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Copake Lake CC (NY)
The Edison C (NY), 27 holes
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Great Neck G&CC (short course) (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Hillcrest GC (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC East/West (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Port Jefferson CC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Shelter Rock CC (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
South Shore GC (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Westechester Women's G&TC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)
Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Great Neck G&CC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)
What is the history of Schenectady CC, is it what is known today as Schenectady Municipal? Also I assume Albany CC is the original Albany Country Club which is no where the Statr University of New York at Albany is located.
Dan
Dan
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TMac,
Battle Island GC, Oswego, NY
Schalren CC, Mohawk View, NY (not Mohawk CC)
Iroquois GC, Niskayuna, NY
Green Hill Yacht &CC
Old Country Club aka Flushing CC, Flushing LI
Silver Spring CC, Ridgefield, CT
Antlers GC, Fort Jefferson, NY
Capital Hills, Albany, NY
Brentwood GC, Islip, Li
Cherry Valley Club, Garden City, Li
Coonamessett GC, N. Falmouth, Ma- now Clauson’s Inn
Manhasset GC, Manhasset ,NY
St. Regis GC, NY (planned, can’t find other info)
Pawling G&CC, Pawling, NY, (planned, can’t find other info)
Oswego CC Ny, remodel
Green Meadow nka Willow Ridge, NY
Anyone know the history of Iroquois GC, Niskayuna, NY? Not aware of that one. Captial Hills in Albany has been redesigned significantly.
Dan
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Mike,
Congressional seems to be his most noted course
Glen Head for its historic significance as WNG&TC
McGregor Links - Every time I read this article I say to myself that I would regularly and happily make the four hour round trip to play there (especially in August) ;) http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1921/gi152j.pdf
Hob Nob Hill - impossibility, but I could walk to it when I didn't feel like driving up to Saratoga. ;D
McGregor was butchered a while back with the construction of town homes inside the course. Still fun to play but that really changed the place for worse.
Dan
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Quite a few Devereux Emmet courses are in the Albany NY area. There is a book written by a local history professor that I could find for the society.
http://www.amazon.com/history-golf-Yorks-capital-region/dp/0966847202
Also know the author slightly and perhaps he has further information?
If you want me to get the book or try and contact the author please let me know.
Dan
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Dan,
Some Iroquois info for you:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46068.0.html
http://tinyurl.com/6svdjm9
There are quite a few articles about it in online newspaper archives.
Here are two very good article about the construction of Mohawk GC:
http://tinyurl.com/7fvb7g9
http://tinyurl.com/7b5beuz
p.s. The Schenectady CC merged with the Edison CC.
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Dan,
Some Iroquois info for you:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46068.0.html
http://tinyurl.com/6svdjm9
There are quite a few articles about it in online newspaper archives.
Here are two very good article about the construction of Mohawk GC:
http://tinyurl.com/7fvb7g9
http://tinyurl.com/7b5beuz
p.s. The Schenectady CC merged with the Edison CC.
Thanks. I really enjoy Mohawk Golf Club. There was a 18 holes pictorial of the course posted here late summer.
Was Schenectady CC property part of what is Edison today or the clubs just merged?
Dan
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Dan,
Te clubs merged. SCC sold there 9 hole course to a group that renamed it Schonowe GC. That group went belly-up by 1937 and the town was chasing them for back taxes.
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The links below mention an 18 hole golf course in Astoria (Astoria Golf Club), and one of the articles attributes it to Emmet.
http://tinyurl.com/9qn9axs
http://tinyurl.com/9rocyxw
edit: I think the Emmet course described in the article is Queensboro, already on the list of known Emmets.
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How could this thread have lasted so long without any green ink ? ;D
Of the Emmett courses I've played, I really, really, liked a number of them.
Seawane and St George's immediately come to mind.
GCGC obviously.
Silver Spring, Rockaway River, Congressional, Glen Head, Hampshire and Nassau as well.
I'd like to play more of them on that list.
Mark,
How about an update on your efforts.
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Pat,
It's an official thread - green ink!
I agree, it would be nice to hear from Mark about his efforts w/the DES.
Here's an item about the origins of Mahopac golf club.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8295/7816159544_1193b14fe8_b.jpg)
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This is not an aerial of Emmet's Shelter Rock GC in Searingtown, LI. - Sorry, it's The Links, a CBM coure. :-[
Lots of sand, and I think it's the first time I've seen a heart shaped green. TEPaul would have loved that. :o
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8336/8103417592_59386a40bf_z.jpg)
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Man that looks cool! The heart green is an island in sand too.
Mark
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Mark,
The green in the upper r.hand corner almost looks like a "diamond", but I don't see any "spades" or "clubs", so there goes that theory. ;D
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Almost looks like a biarritz green in the center picture.
Mark
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Almost looks like a biarritz green in the center picture.
Mark
Mark,
I justed stumbled upon this thread and noticed the same thing?
I have heard of Emmet building template holes; did he ever build a Biarritz, and is this hole still there?
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Don't know if he templated, but he sure enjoyed the influence of others at the time, yet took what the land gave him. Mohawk is a great example of his use of land. The 1st and 10th are diabolical par 4s, thanks to skewed fairways. The second hole is a singular par three, in my opinion...part Tillinghast Reef, part Redan, part Emmet original. If this hole had a 220-yard tee, I would love it more than any other par three in New York state I've played. Here are a few links:
What you see from the tee:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Mohawk%20Golf%20Club-June%202011/IMG_0273.jpg
What you don't see from the tee:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Mohawk%20Golf%20Club-June%202011/IMG_0276.jpg
Above green on right:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Mohawk%20Golf%20Club-June%202011/IMG_0279.jpg
Below green on left:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Mohawk%20Golf%20Club-June%202011/IMG_0287.jpg
Behind green (take note of ball for next picture):
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Mohawk%20Golf%20Club-June%202011/IMG_0285.jpg
Same ball position, from back right of green (kinda sloped):
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Mohawk%20Golf%20Club-June%202011/IMG_0280.jpg
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Glad this thread came back to life.
I have notations of a number of courses that do not appear on the MacWood list noted earlier in the thread that have been attributed to Emmet from different sources.
If anyone has any information on the following, I'd greatly appreciate hearing if these are misattributions, courses known by different names or mysteries that have already been cleared up:
Fulton Estate (CT)
Silver Spring (CT)
Clauson’s Inn fka Coonamessett GC (MA)
Green Hill Yacht & CC (MD)
Antlers GC (NY)
Battle Island GC (NY)
Brentwood GC (NY)
Iroquois GC (NY)
Manhasset GC (NY)
Oswego CC (NY)
Pawling G&CC (Design Only) (NY)
Schalren CC (NY)
St. Regis River GC (NY)
Tuscarora CC (NY)
Willow Ridge f/k/a Green Meadow (NY)
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A few aerial views of some Emmet courses. All NLE except Lawrence, but it had a total makeover in 1961 by Joe Finger, and a couple of new holes were added after that. The property is long and narrow, looks like the routing is fairly intact.
Lawrence Yacht and CC
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8530/8500337341_4306403cf1_b.jpg)
Astoria
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8500337411_814b61fac3_b.jpg)
Pomonok
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8366/8500337369_f1101b2372_b.jpg)
Queen's Valley
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8500337391_c0b7bcb6cc_b.jpg)
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Flushing
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8230/8501816004_d202e460a9_b.jpg)
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Queensboro
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8380/8500778181_7b2bd3b0b8_b.jpg)
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There's some interesting bunkering there, with the double arced cross bunkered at Lawerence jumping out. How about the aggressive bunker surrounding a few greens at Pomonock? And in the upper left quadrant at Pomonock, looks like a pair of diagonal cross bunkers filled with turf?
The more Emmet you see, the more you treasure what is left.
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There's some interesting bunkering there, with the double arced cross bunkered at Lawerence jumping out. How about the aggressive bunker surrounding a few greens at Pomonock? And in the upper left quadrant at Pomonock, looks like a pair of diagonal cross bunkers filled with turf?
The more Emmet you see, the more you treasure what is left.
How true.
.....and he sure wasn't afraid of using bunkers.
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Some more Emmet. These are photos of Laurelton Links and a few of its greens. Plans were for two 18 hole courses. The 'club' was being built at the time (1924) but within 4 or 5 years time it was sold for 2 mil and covered with homes, a school, and commercial buildings.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8528/8505388620_dc3465a107_z.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8505388656_d8c0b6d32c.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8236/8505388674_2335ae6f48.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8384/8505388692_f918b2e7ff.jpg)
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Thanks for these aerials.
Some I have some I do not.
Some of his obscure courses really intrigue me, like the 9 holer he did down in North Carolina and others.
Thanks,
Chris
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This is Emmet's Pelham CC as it existed in 1951:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8100/8509723065_8451828c99_z.jpg)
Here's the direct link to the map if you'd like to zoom in on it....
http://gis.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/?z=8&p=1040207,265958&c=GIS1951
and here's a close up of the 'Short' hole.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8531/8510844118_f94a912a10_b.jpg)
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Silver Spring CC keeps coming up in this thread as a Devereux Emmet design. Is this the Silver Spring in Ridgefield, Connecticut? I was under the impression it was a Robert White course?
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Joey:
Bahto notes that White built the course to Banks' plans after Banks died in 1931.
I've also seen Silver Spring credited to Arthur Tull. This list of Tull courses notes he redesigned the existing White layout in 1934 (http://rockleigh.org/Recreation/Golf/Tull.htm).
A bit of confusion on this one.
Sven
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Sven,
I see that in the architects book, they do give Alfred Tull redesign credit too. I am a bit curious as to where the Devereux Emmet connection is?
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Could be confusion with Emmet, Emmet and Tull before Dev passed away and Tull went on his own...RHE
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The club doesn't think it's anyone but White
Welcome to Silver Spring Country Club!
Silver Spring Country Club is a private club founded in 1930 in Ridgefield, CT. Members and guests enjoy a challenging and well-maintained eighteen-hole golf course designed by Scottish architect Robert White, first president of PGA and co-founder of the American Society of Golf Course Architects.
And this article seems to agree with them:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8370/8511198868_d20d5c8229_b.jpg)
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Jim,
That was quick work. I've spent some time at Silver Spring and had always known of it as a White course. I had never heard the Emmet or Banks stuff before, not that I would question it. I would love to see more proof about the idea that Banks had a routing that was used by White. Like you say, even the club's website acknowledges only White.
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Glad this thread came back to life.
I have notations of a number of courses that do not appear on the MacWood list noted earlier in the thread that have been attributed to Emmet from different sources.
If anyone has any information on the following, I'd greatly appreciate hearing if these are misattributions, courses known by different names or mysteries that have already been cleared up:
Fulton Estate (CT) - NLE, Mainly known as Hob Nob Hill, less than a mile from my house. :'( info in earlier posts
Silver Spring (CT)
Clauson’s Inn fka Coonamessett GC (MA)
Green Hill Yacht & CC (MD)
Antlers GC (NY) - Amsterdam NY, DE enlarged it in 1922/23- now known as Rolling Hills Battle Island GC (NY)
Brentwood GC (NY)
Iroquois GC (NY)- info in earlier posts
Manhasset GC (NY)
Oswego CC (NY) - Another redo of an existing course. I think his work was redone by AWT, if I"m not mistaken
Pawling G&CC (Design Only) (NY)- Never got built, as far as I know
Schalren CC (NY) - built for the Masons in Schenectady, NY
St. Regis River GC (NY) - info in earlier postsTuscarora CC (NY)
Willow Ridge f/k/a Green Meadow (NY) -info in earlier posts
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Sven - Brentwood was a nine hole course. In 1924 Emmet redesigned it, w/Phil Turnesa doing the 'constructing'. The club's website lists Emmet, and I've come across a couple of articles mentioning Emmet as the architect.
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Sven - Brentwood was a nine hole course. In 1924 Emmet redesigned it, w/Phil Turnesa doing the 'constructing'. The club's website lists Emmet, and I've come across a couple of articles mentioning Emmet as the architect.
Brentwood GC, NY is all Emmet. Allout of neat stuff still out there as well.
Chris
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Chris,
These are from '24 and '25:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8385/8515576741_e33e016fd5_z.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8515576763_f566a7ec8b.jpg)
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Before Mark takes on creating detente between posters or figuring out the sexuality of private men who have been dead for 75 years ;), perhaps we can refocus on Mark's updated course list with the help of many here:
http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/2010/11/devereux-emmet-course-list.html
Anything still missing?
The blog seems to have gone away. Did it move somewhere or just go away?
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the URL has either been hacked or poached...hope Mark didn't let it lapse.
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Does anybody have or know of a good biography of Emmet?
I've been hired by Huntington Country Club and would like to put together a biography as part of the Master Plan.
Regards,
Ian
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Ian, what does the course really need done besides mowing out some fairway and green surfaces? I was out there last year and thought the course is delightful.
MM
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Does anybody have or know of a good biography of Emmet?
I've been hired by Huntington Country Club and would like to put together a biography as part of the Master Plan.
Regards,
Ian
Ian, Mark has been working on one.
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As a big fan of Devereux Emmet, Ian Andrew & Mark Chalfant, I'm bumping this thread in hopes of reigniting the discussion of a Socieity for Mr. Emmet. I, for one, would be very interested in participating in such a Society.
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Ian, what does the course really need done besides mowing out some fairway and green surfaces? I was out there last year and thought the course is delightful.
Interesting to answer that after the fact. It was mainly grassing work (done), some tee work (ongoing), tree removal (almost all done) and the area around the clubhouse ended up as part of the conversation too.
You can see the mow outs and tree removal around the 11th
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/12339519_1001050363275138_9164497776731613068_o.jpg)
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and 8 new tee's, so far...RHE
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and 8 new tee's, so far...RHE
Sounds like 2016 is going to be very good at HCC!
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It's such an amazing place that seems to get better every time I go there.
Can we all set an ambitious goal for 2016 of getting an Emmet Society off the ground?
Anyone who is involved in another architects society care to give us some advice for starting?
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Does the Devereux Emmet Society still exist? All links or sites mentioned no longer work.
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I am organizing a Devereux Emmet Society to honor this underappreciated golf course architect. I will be publishing a quarterly newsletter and plans are in the works for a spring meeting to celebrate his work.
I am extremely interested in doing a podcast on the History of Devereux Emmet. He is on my very short list of architects.
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Conner please do the podcast, in today's age unless a history is documented online outside of books etc. it seems like it will continue to erode.
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Dave, Jeff and Connor,
Thank you for your interest in Devereux Emmet! I will be creating a new Emmet website early in 2023.
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Mark, I'm in! How can I help?
Connor, I'm certainly not at Mark's level on Emmet, but I would be more than happy to share the history of Wheatley Hills Golf Club on Long Island. And Brad Klein wrote a wonderful book on Emmet's St. George's, so he's is a spectacular resource.
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I think I had help from Mark on this, but it's a decent short biography
Devereux Emmet was born in Pelham, New York on December 11, 1861, the son of a wealthy Sugar Company executive William Jenkins Emmet. He was the great grandson of the famous American lawyer Thomas Abbot Emmet.
He was one of eight children. His four brothers went on to be successful business men and his three sisters were respected artists. Devereux himself went to Columbia University and earned a law degree in 1883. While the others were quick to establish themselves, Emmet was the child who seemed to march to a different drummer. He seemed to be far less interested in any form of work and was described as socialite or wealthy sportsman. He was also an excellent golfer talented enough golfer that he made it to the quarter finals of the British Amateur in 1904.
In 1889 he married Ella B. Smith in an elaborate wedding at her home in New York City. Miss Smith was the daughter of Judge J. Lawrence Smith and a niece of Alexander Stewart. Ella's sister Elizabeth was also the wife of famous architect Stanford White. They had two sons together Richard and Devereux Jr. This connection would play a key role in his future as a golf course architect.
"The bride's gown was of white satin and point lace adorned with pearls. A wedding breakfast was served by Pinard, and about 500 hundred guests attended the reception in the afternoon...... After a three week honeymoon Mr. and Mrs. Emmet will return to New York, but they will soon make their home at Cooperstown, where the groom has a large estate."
New York Times, January 27, 1889
Rather than become a lawyer like his famous great grandfather, Emmet bought hunting dogs in the South, raised them, and then sold them in the British Isles in the fall. He then spent his time overseas hunting and playing golf before returning home for the winter. It was on one of these later trips that he spent his time measuring and producing sketches of the famous British golf holes for his friend CB Macdonald who was then planning The National Golf Links of America. Emmet would eventually become a founding member of the National and play a small role in the purchase and planning of the course.
In the early 1870’s Alexander Stewart began the development of a community called Garden City. This project included George Hubbel, who would see this project through to the end for the family, and architect Stanford White. The community called for housing, parks and eventually golf courses as part of the overall plan. In 1899, based upon Devereux Emmet’s skill and enthusiasm for the game he was selected to layout the original nine-hole course.
School boys mostly ignore the game – make fun of it. Only to find out when they are thirty five years old and too old to be really good golfers, that it is the only game they care about for the rest of their lives. There is a mistaken idea among young people that is it’s a soft babyish game, requiring no courage or hardihood. As a matter of fact it calls for more pluck than any other form of athletic contest. The great efforts must be made with perfect sangfroid in the face of imminent disaster.”
Devereux Emmet on golf
The original nine was called Island Golf Links and was influenced by Emmet’s multiple trips to United Kingdom. Emmet was familiar with St. Andrews, Prestwick and North Berwick among other famous links and brought many of the ideas he saw there to his new holes. Eventually he would draw upon those golfing trips and adapt many of the famous holes into his own work. The 7th hole at Huntington Country Club is clearly his own adaption of the Road Hole and is in my opinion the best adaption I have seen in the United States.
Originally he accepted no fee for his work, likely because the first few projects involved his wife’s family, but it wasn’t soon after that Emmet became a professional golf course architect accepting fees. His practice grew as golf began to expand rapidly. In 1916 the USGA instituted a rule banning golf course architects who accepted a fee for their services from competing in amateur tournaments. Emmet’s design business continued to flourish in the 1920’s as golf went through a period of rapid expansion fueled by the roaring twenties. In 1924 Emmet hired Alfred Tull as a design associate.
“He may be classed by our intelligent golf legislators in the same category as caddies and club makers, but he must have imagination, education, love of nature and naturalness, and lots of technical knowledge and special knowledge thrown in to do justice to the job. It pays to employ a good golf architect – the best you can get. Then you won’t have regrets nor changes to make.”
Devereux Emmet on professional golf architects
Emmet had many interesting project along the way including the creation of The Women’s National Golf and Tennis club with Marion Hollins. Hollins provided Emmet with sketches of famous holes she had collected on a trip to England and some of those were incorporated into the design. Emmet even served as the club’s secretary for period too.
In 1929 Tull was promoted to full partner of Emmet, Emmet and Tull. The firm included his son Devereux Emmet Jr. who worked with the firm until his father’s death on December 30th 1934.