Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bradley Anderson on October 13, 2010, 07:29:22 PM
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This week a group of us supers from Detroit got away to play golf at Camargo and Holston Hills. I think we all learned a lot on this tour. Every club should MAKE their supers get out and study the great golf courses.
Holston Hills is maybe the best Donald Ross golf course there is.
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1st Tee.
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This side view of the green shows that Ross opens with a steep back to front sloping green.
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Fairway bunkering on 3. Note how the elevations of the rear bunkers are set to within inches of where they need to be so that you know they are all there. And you can admire their beauty too. You will see this kind of brilliant engineering on every hole at Holston Hills.
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3 approach over a valley in front of the green. Note the absence of trees behind the green here. This makes it a much more difficult little shot to gauge with no backdrop. And notice the view that you have looking strait down another hole on the golf course. How cool is that?
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/4T.jpg)
4 green. Just a very simple strait forward par 3 with gentle putting contours. But if you miss the green you’re in trouble.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/5T.jpg)
The 5th hole. Here we begin to encounter the significant centerline bunkering that we will face on over half of the remaining holes. And most of these bunkers are at distances very much in play - even with modern equipment. Greenkeeper Ryan Blair has the faces of the bunkers groomed perfectly for the ball to kick and release to the bunker floor. Also of note: the entrance to these bunkers is not all ramped up to deflect balls from rolling in - another Holston Hills distinctive.
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6 Tee. What a view! Holston Hills asks you to keep your cart on the paths and observe the 90 degree rule. This bares mention because I doubt that you could otherwise maintain healthy grass on these kinds of holes where there is so much bunkering in the middle of the corridors. I mean if carts were allowed to meander all down the middle of these holes they might wear the turf out around the fairway bunkering. I think every architect that promotes this kind of bunkering would do well to add a path system. And he should urge the club to institute a cart etiquette policy to go along with it. There is quite a bit of asphalt on Holston Hills, but it is needed because of the way it is bunkered. I would add that it does not interfere with your sight lines.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/6APP.jpg)
6 approach. Amazing how Ross finds all the knolls on a piece of property to place his greens, and then he manages to build a route around it all. The routing at Holston Hills is perfect.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/7FWB.jpg)
7th hole. I think this shot was taken from the rough beyond the lower fairway. The upper fairway is to the left of this shot. The upper fairway is definitely the option to take, because you have less bunkering to manage on your second shot.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/7GAPP.jpg)
However, from the upper fairway the contours of the green are obscured and blocked by this mounding here. Good luck rolling one in for an Eagle attempt. Of note: all of the green surrounds at Holston Hills are groomed very closely over some fairly steep angles. In the north you would have to plant bentgrass on this kind of a grassing scheme around greens, but that would be much harder to maintain than the bermuda grass that they have here. I guess that’s why some of the best Ross greens are in the south?
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/8G.jpg)
The V shaped 8th green. When the pin is in the front here you have a much narrower pad to land than when the pin is located in the widened back portion. But if you play beyond the pin you are putting downhill. What a wonderfully simple and potent strategy for a short hole.
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Nine tee. This was my personal best hole on the front nine. Not a particularly difficult hole through the green. It is nice when you make the turn with a good hole behind you - it gives you a greater anticipation for the next nine.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/10APP.jpg)
The tenth hole.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/10GSIDEa.jpg)
The green on 10 is cut into a hillside to obscure the putting surface from the right side of the hole. You can see it better in this shot taken from 18. I don’t think I have ever seen this kind of Ross green anywhere else.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/11T.jpg)
The mid-length par 3 11th hole. The green here feels more sloped to me than what we encountered on most of the front nine greens. In fact, through the entire home stretch that was my impression: that the back nine greens are more wily. But I suppose that may be just a first-round impression?
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/12T.jpg)
12th hole. Everything is right in front of you on this hole. In my opinion this hole illustrates that you can have large trees on a golf course, provided they are beyond the opening of the holes.
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13th green. Stunning.
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14 tee. Everyone in our group was short on this hole. Not sure if there was some mysterious wind down in this hollow? The green is very steeply sloped.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/151T.jpg)
The awe inspiring view from 15 tee.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/152MOUNDS.jpg)
A side view of the mounds. I know it is often said that Ross was traveling so much that he couldn’t have spent too much time on his golf courses. But he must have been really good at conveying exactly what he wanted to his construction supervisors because these kinds of features really have a distinct look to them that just shouts Donald Ross.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/15APP.jpg)
Hitting beyond the mounds isn’t really that hard, but there is a lot of trouble lurking on the fiercely guarded second shot.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/161APP.jpg)
305 yard par 4 16th hole. All uphill. Imagine this hole with no trees as a backdrop! Wow!
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/162GREENHAZARDBACK.jpg)
You definitely do not want to be long on your second shot here.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/163BRIAN.jpg)
The views of the golf course are stunning from the 16th green. Brain Schweihofer is lining up a putt here.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/163GREENTOTEEWALK.jpg)
Notice the short cut bermuda between the green and tee. Old Elm is the only Ross course that has this in the north. Keeping bent all around a green like this is too difficult where you have significant rounds of golf played, and that’s probably why Old Elm is one of the only clubs in the north with these kinds of green to tee cuts - they don’t have the traffic to wear it out. With bermuda however, your short cut options are almost limitless.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/171T.jpg)
The long 17th hole.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/181T.jpg)
The finishing hole.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/182APP.jpg)
The green on 18 is fairly shallow and steep. I can imagine that many rounds have been decided here by rolling one way past the hole.
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Great photos! You are bringing back very fond memories for me. Thanks!
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Thanks for the photo tour. I have wanted to play HH for quite some time and your photos only heighten that desire.
I wish I could get an invite there.
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Thank you for the pictures.
I've yet to see a photograph in which Holston Hills didn't look stunning.
It's an incredibly photogenic course.
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Thanks Carr
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Great photos, love the bunkering. Looks like a terrific course. Thanks for sharing.
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Great photos and commentary. Thanks. Makes one realize that many Ross courses have these features and subtleties hidden beneath their trees waiting for a second chance.
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Thanks for the photo tour of Holston. Of course, everyone is welcome at Holston.
Email you know who or wheres mayhugh or myself.
First frost is in a few weeks so hurry. See you at the first tee.
Would agree that Holston has a very good routing as Bradley says, which as you look back across the course, really leaves you with a smile and a bit of wonder. So many good green sites from the 2nd to 3rd, the 6th, the 8th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and you get the picture. Clearing behind the 16th green is a goal, that may be reached next year.
But a bit of a homer figures in the above. So there you go.
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Excellent photo tour. It has me longing for my return. Hopefully 2011. It's a pity that I can't find a good excuse to get there at least once a year since it is only 3 hours away.
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Bradley
Its such a pleasure to see an open Ross course; so many are shrouded in trees. Holston Hills looks very appealing. Has the bunkering been redone recently?
Thanks for the tour.
Ciao
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What a great looking course, has there been a lot of tree removal there in the past 10 years?
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Great photo tour Bradley, thanks for posting. I've wanted to play HH for a while now, and these photos clearly show it's worth a stop in Knoxville on the next drive down to Kiawah.
How would you compare the course in it's present form to Old Elm? From the pictures it looks like the two were built on a similar property and have similar bunker styles (maybe HH is more flashy)...
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Is it just me or wouldn't you want to cut down those three trees behind the left bunker on the 1st hole?
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Thanks for the photo tour. I have wanted to play HH for quite some time and your photos only heighten that desire.
I wish I could get an invite there.
Try not being such a pain in the......... ;D
Bradley,
I appreciate the photo tour too. I don't really have all that many photos of the course. Glad you enjoyed your visit, and your observations are really good.
As John Stiles mentioned, those that want to see Holston should contact one of us. I haven't been down there nearly enough this year.
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Thanks for the photo tour. I have wanted to play HH for quite some time and your photos only heighten that desire.
I wish I could get an invite there.
Try not being such a pain in the......... ;D
I'm a pain, he says........
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Looks like another great example of Ross work!! Thanks for posting the pictures!
Mark
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Wow! Holston Hills is a beautiful course.
JC - I'll gladly take you out there, you country @$$ ************! Already investigating if there's a local Coz's in Tennessee.
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Thanks for the photo tour. I have wanted to play HH for quite some time and your photos only heighten that desire.
I wish I could get an invite there.
Try not being such a pain in the......... ;D
I'm a pain, he says........
JC
You are a pain you Spartan savant. On the other hand, Tucky is a reasonable sort of chap who may not have fine taste in cigars, but certainly so with golf courses.
Ciao
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Thanks for the photo tour. I have wanted to play HH for quite some time and your photos only heighten that desire.
I wish I could get an invite there.
Try not being such a pain in the......... ;D
I'm a pain, he says........
JC
You are a pain you Spartan savant. On the other hand, Tucky is a reasonable sort of chap who may not have fine taste in cigars, but certainly so with golf courses.
Ciao
Tucky was a fine golfing partner of mine in 2009 (despite his relative unsophistication). In 2010, however, I've been left behind as a mere stepping stone on his ascent to greatness.
Don't worry about the UM/MSU thing, Sean. If nothing else, you'll always have the better golf course.
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A friend and member of HH recently suggested the course has one of the great and ideal maintenance melds around. In particular, he praised the work of green superintedent Ryan Blair.
And in his comments, Sean Arble came up. ;D He noted how the the bunkers and importantly the bunker surrounds are maintained in such a way that they gather balls, rather than having the offline shot get caught up in high rough fronting/surrounding bunkers. Considerably different than a course profiled on the Discussion Board that recently held a GCA event hosted by one of the board's more prolific posters!
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Thanks for the photo tour. I have wanted to play HH for quite some time and your photos only heighten that desire.
I wish I could get an invite there.
Try not being such a pain in the......... ;D
I'm a pain, he says........
JC
You are a pain you Spartan savant. On the other hand, Tucky is a reasonable sort of chap who may not have fine taste in cigars, but certainly so with golf courses.
Ciao
Tucky was a fine golfing partner of mine in 2009 (despite his relative unsophistication). In 2010, however, I've been left behind as a mere stepping stone on his ascent to greatness.
Don't worry about the UM/MSU thing, Sean. If nothing else, you'll always have the better golf course.
JC
You just can't help yourself - can ya? First you try and drag Tucky down with inuendo and cheap Spartan braggadacio which only those residing (previously counts as well - you are more slippery than those non-existing Florida swamps) within 10 miles of Spartanville can display. Then you try and get tight with me hoping for an invite to play golf at UofM. Some things never change out there in what I call the middle (no caps intentional).
Phil
I did notice the short hair around the bunkers, but I didn't like to mention it due the sensitivity of the New York crowd.
Ciao
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I loved my round at Holston Hills in the spring. I think it should be the model for how to maintain a Ross course both in terms of maintenance meld and trees. Ryan Blair does a fantastic job there keeping the course just the way it should be.
I think my beloved Interlachen could really find it's true potential if it cleared out another 1,000+ trees, cut down the rough and allowed balls to run freely into the wonderfully redone (by Silva) bunkers. If it did it would became the course Ross designed it to be imo.
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Thanks for the photo tour. I have wanted to play HH for quite some time and your photos only heighten that desire.
I wish I could get an invite there.
Try not being such a pain in the......... ;D
I'm a pain, he says........
JC
You are a pain you Spartan savant. On the other hand, Tucky is a reasonable sort of chap who may not have fine taste in cigars, but certainly so with golf courses.
Ciao
Tucky was a fine golfing partner of mine in 2009 (despite his relative unsophistication). In 2010, however, I've been left behind as a mere stepping stone on his ascent to greatness.
Don't worry about the UM/MSU thing, Sean. If nothing else, you'll always have the better golf course.
JC
You just can't help yourself - can ya? First you try and drag Tucky down with inuendo and cheap Spartan braggadacio which only those residing (previously counts as well - you are more slippery than those non-existing Florida swamps) within 10 miles of Spartanville can display. Then you try and get tight with me hoping for an invite to play golf at UofM. Some things never change out there in what I call the middle (no caps intentional).
Phil
I did notice the short hair around the bunkers, but I didn't like to mention it due the sensitivity of the New York crowd.
Ciao
There was no innuendo in my attempt to bring Tucky down. I'm as transparent as it gets. You know what they say about a woman scorned.
Can you get me on Pine Valley?
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JC
Its a pity we don't have such transparency in the law. Can ya work on that?
I'll get back to you about the Pine Valley hook up. If you play your cards right there may just be a slot with your name on it come 2056, maybe a '55 if you slip a backhander my way.
Ciao
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[/quote]
Phil
I did notice the short hair around the bunkers, but I didn't like to mention it due the sensitivity of the New York crowd.
Ciao
[/quote]
Sean:
The NY Metro crowd does not own a monopoly on proper maintenance meld/bunkering opinions. ;D
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Phil
I did notice the short hair around the bunkers, but I didn't like to mention it due the sensitivity of the New York crowd.
Ciao
[/quote]
Sean:
The NY Metro crowd does not own a monopoly on proper maintenance meld/bunkering opinions. ;D
[/quote]
Phil
Yes, but, the head honcho, Senior Nevverbewong does have the green ink and not even Sparty Boy JC is allowed to use it without risking a bollocking. They also have that renegade Tuco circling the globe like a a rope around a steer's leg so one is never sure when he will get a nasty message in a sombrero. Tough crowd those Nyorkers. Its best to let them do what they do best...only I haven't figured out what that is.
Ciao
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The photos look great and I am glad you guys had a great time. Looks like it was a great trip. If your back this way be sure and let me know.
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Tough crowd those Nyorkers. Its best to let them do what they do best...only I haven't figured out what that is.
Ciao
Be better than everyone else? ;) ;D
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Bradley
Its such a pleasure to see an open Ross course; so many are shrouded in trees. Holston Hills looks very appealing. Has the bunkering been redone recently?
Thanks for the tour.
Ciao
I think it's been 10 years or so since they were restored. Not moved, just peeled back for new sand and grass. A few of the green side bunkers may have been deepened a little. But I suspect that they found all the original soil layers during restoration.
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Great photo tour Bradley, thanks for posting. I've wanted to play HH for a while now, and these photos clearly show it's worth a stop in Knoxville on the next drive down to Kiawah.
How would you compare the course in it's present form to Old Elm? From the pictures it looks like the two were built on a similar property and have similar bunker styles (maybe HH is more flashy)...
Old Elm's bunkers have softer and more globular faces to them. HH has steeper bunker faces, and I would say also that they are more open in the fronts for balls to roll in. The ball is more likely to hang up on the face of an Old Elm bunker than HH. Old Elm definitely has more trees on the property but they are not any more or less in the angles of flight than HH. The greens at Old Elm have contours that are just slightly more interesting than HH. IMO.
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Is it just me or wouldn't you want to cut down those three trees behind the left bunker on the 1st hole?
I thought so too, but I think the trees are Ok here. Ryan Blair has been planting some great fescue and little bluestem areas, and he has some of that going beyond those trees that you don't notice from the tee. I kind of like the thought of a big hitter driving over those trees and ending up in the hay. For most of us there is no advantage to cutting that corner.
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Pat Craig
Regards the trees on the first, I would have to agree that one of them is pointless. Certainly the bunkers if you keep the trees, if you land where the bunker is then you are chipping out sideways anyway. Unless of course it is possible to get over the trees out the bunker. Seems a bit harsh if that is the case, no?
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There is more variation at Holston Hils than at Pinehurst.
Anthony
p
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Do the mounds on #15 come into play? If not, what purpose do they serve? Just curious.
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I loved my opportunity to play Holston Hills. So, thanks to Easy E and Mayhugh for showing me the ropes.
My favorite aspect of playing Holston was that aside from some cross bunkers here and there to make you think, the firm and fast conditions promoted multiple options off of the tees. Holston has some of the widest playing corridors that I've encountered and (for the most part) the width allows you to hit whatever you want when teeing off. You can pick and choose how far you want to play your approach from and that's where the true challenge of Holston lies. The challenge starts once you pull the trigger on the second shot as the approaches and dealing with the greens are where your strokes pile up. You'll hit tons of fairways, but the course is far from easy and you start wondering why you're not scoring better.
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Do the mounds on #15 come into play? If not, what purpose do they serve? Just curious.
Ron...during my afternoon round a few months back, the wind was in our face standing on the tee and I remember having a bit of doubt pulling out the driver. They did not really come into play, but are certainly an intimidating visual standing over that tee shot.
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Looks to be a terrifically interesting and with a little local knowledge playable for a wide range of players course.
Good, interesting but not dramatic terrain movement ... and with that said, it looks to be very walkable ... why the carts?
Don't you lose a lot of the experience in the cart?
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For average player, what is that anyway 15-20 hdcp, the mounds can come into play, especially into the prevailing wind from the west.
Oddly, a new 'back' tee on the 15th turned out to be too much for the good players due to the carry. Into prevailing wind, the mounds are almost 5 feet, it was quite a carry and the new back tee was abandoned. Most do not even notice the abandoned tee. Another new back tee is contemplated, more in line, or just behind present back tee in use.
Most golfers at HH walk although I do not have the numbers on cart rentals. Quite a few 3 wheel, now 4 wheel, 'speed carts.' Total rounds hover around 24-26,000 although a number of late afternoon rounds in the summer might be missed.
HH is an easy course to walk, with short distance from green to tee, and no mountains to climb.
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Bradley,
What a beautiful set of pictures of an equally beautiful golf course. Thanks for sharing them with us.
The drive into the neighborhood is always a treat. Charming older bungalow style homes, lots of old oaks, poplars and maples give it a timeless appeal. When rounding the corner onto Holston Hills Drive, making your way up to the club house, you get a glimpse through the trees of a really fun, sporty, well kept classic of a golf course with wonderful people all around to help make your time spent there memorable.
I recently resigned my out of town membership at Holston and I'll miss being a member. I suspect that I'll be taking up Stiles and Mayhugh on their generous offers.
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Do the mounds on #15 come into play? If not, what purpose do they serve? Just curious.
Ron...during my afternoon round a few months back, the wind was in our face standing on the tee and I remember having a bit of doubt pulling out the driver. They did not really come into play, but are certainly an intimidating visual standing over that tee shot.
Thanks Brian. How long does the hole play? What is the carry required off the tee to clear those mounds? Also, how much room (fairway) do you have before the mounds?
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Do the mounds on #15 come into play? If not, what purpose do they serve? Just curious.
Ron...during my afternoon round a few months back, the wind was in our face standing on the tee and I remember having a bit of doubt pulling out the driver. They did not really come into play, but are certainly an intimidating visual standing over that tee shot.
Thanks Brian. How long does the hole play? What is the carry required off the tee to clear those mounds? Also, how much room (fairway) do you have before the mounds?
Ron-
Some of the regulars can give you a better answer than me, but I believe the hole is a little under 400 yards. I hit it 250-275 off the tee and had 100 yards to the pin in the morning and about 120 in the afternoon when the wind picked up. I'd say it's just a bit over 200 to carry the mounds. Plenty of room before the mounds...I think if you lay up behind them, you have about 180 to the center of the green.
Eric-
Guess we'll have to find a new spot for our rematch!
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Do the mounds on #15 come into play? If not, what purpose do they serve? Just curious.
Ron...during my afternoon round a few months back, the wind was in our face standing on the tee and I remember having a bit of doubt pulling out the driver. They did not really come into play, but are certainly an intimidating visual standing over that tee shot.
Thanks Brian. How long does the hole play? What is the carry required off the tee to clear those mounds? Also, how much room (fairway) do you have before the mounds?
I may be totally off on this but here is how I viewed it:
If you play the left side you can probably clear the mounds with 180 yards carry, but the left side of the green is about the most heavily guarded of any green on the course. The right side gives you a much safer angle to the green, and the carry is only 10 yards or so further on that side.
But there is something about how the mounds are arranged and sized that gives the illusion, from the tee, that the right side is a much further carry and on more of a diagonal line than it really is. There is also more fairway in front of the mounds on the right side to add to the illusion. So probably most people play for the middle to be safe, when in fact they would be well within their ability going right and having a more open look at the green.
The strategy with the mounds is in how they are sized and arranged to give the illusion of more difficulty on the right side than there really is.
It would be nice if someone who knows that hole better would chime in.
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Great job capturing the character of the golf course Bradley!
I joined Holston Hills as an out-of-town member last May after seeing reviews on this web site and getting some encouragement from Eric Smith, whom I guess I have replaced. Sorry to hear you've gone Eric!
The quality of the golf course speaks not only to Ross's genius but the dedication of all the members who preceded me who have been and are committed to preserving his gem, and of course to Ryan Blair. In my short experience the maintenance presentation has been absolutely perfect.
One of the things that I find enjoyable about the course from a member's perspective that Bradley doesn't mention is the difference between play from the Blue tees, a sporty 6398, and the Orange tees, brawnier at 6812 (there is a another set measuring 7037 that I haven't attempted). In both cases, you'll typically "use every club in the bag." Play from the shorter tees and drive it well and you might start to think you've got the course figured out... then back it up and you find that the longer clubs you have in your hands on approach means you've got to be thoughtful and skillful to avoid disasters, let alone to make pars.
Bradley I think you have the beguiling nature of the the mounds and how they figure into the strategy on #15 figured out. From the back tees the uneasy feeling is more pronounced. From the forward tees, which are at a lower elevation, they can look daunting for shorter hitters. In any case, right side of the fairway is definitely better and the mounds do seem like they reach into the ideal driving area.. I also like to think of the mounds as an interesting visual diversion--it's one of the shorter par fours on the course and might not be as highly memorable without those mounds--unless you get in one of those green-side bunkers left, then you will remember the hole! The 15th green has been one of the most difficult for me to figure out. I 4-putted it the first time I played the hole and haven't yet recovered...
Bradley, did the players in your group who like to draw the ball like the course better than the faders?
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Most of the time I play the Orange course there. Brian Laurent wanted the Blacks all day when we played and there are some big holes from back there, but on 15, from either tee, I've never paid any attention to that area where the Himalayas are. There's a big cluster of evergreens out to the right separating this hole and the twelfth green. I play my tee shot out at them in hopes of drawing a runner down the right side - and it usually only leaves a 100 yardish uphill wedge. I am guessing it is 200 or so to clear them, probably less than that. Where's Kalen with a quick google map drop in measurement.
There is a little 'Pass' through the Himalayas and every time I walk through it someone in the group will comment about the coolness of these mounds. Usually an elephant graveyard is joked about, and it's funny I guess until you see the one buried on the back of 17 green! Now that was one big mama elephant.
ET - Wish I hadn't been late for my tee time and had been able to meet up with you when you were there. Maybe another time!
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Bradley, did the players in your group who like to draw the ball like the course better than the faders?
There is no question that you have an advantage at HH if you draw the ball. Especially on hole number 2 and 7 which are probably the most difficult holes from the tee. But we all enjoyed every shot good or bad.
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Bradley, did the players in your group who like to draw the ball like the course better than the faders?
There is no question that you have an advantage at HH if you draw the ball. Especially on hole number 2 and 7 which are probably the most difficult holes from the tee. But we all enjoyed every shot good or bad.
I find that you can overcome the need for a draw by playing left-handed at Holston.
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Brad
Thanks for the photo tour. I've always wanted to see this layout after hearing about it from Mr Mayhugh last year.
I appreciate the thread and the course insights moreso now.
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Bradley,
What a beautiful set of pictures of an equally beautiful golf course. Thanks for sharing them with us.
The drive into the neighborhood is always a treat. Charming older bungalow style homes, lots of old oaks, poplars and maples give it a timeless appeal. When rounding the corner onto Holston Hills Drive, making your way up to the club house, you get a glimpse through the trees of a really fun, sporty, well kept classic of a golf course with wonderful people all around to help make your time spent there memorable.
I recently resigned my out of town membership at Holston and I'll miss being a member. I suspect that I'll be taking up Stiles and Mayhugh on their generous offers.
They have a great caddy program also.
Anthony
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I have wanted to play Ross' historical Holston Hills for quite some time.
Yesterday fellow GCA'er Bill Hoyle and I finally made it through the hospitality of John Stiles.
HH has it all. Short par 4's, cross bunkering. Mounds. Long par 4's. Varied par 3's. The above mentioned "V" shaped green on the par 3 8th. We saw the front pin at the tip of the V which creates an all on nothing target. And the round builds. The green complexes on the back include the punchbowl or saucer green on the 10th. A very unique green. Cants, slopes. If you can have a "false" side, I think it's on #17. A great mix of bunkering, greens, holes.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad310/wellmond/Dismal%20River%202012/photo-6-3.jpg)
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Dangit Bruce, I would have driven up from Nashvegas just to tote your bag. Glad you had a great time.
Bogey
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Dangit Bruce, I would have driven up from Nashvegas just to tote your bag. Glad you had a great time.
Bogey
That is quite the offer Bogey.
I spent the entire day above the hole, against John's advice, and clearly needed someone of your skills on the bag.
However, we have yet to play together in 3(?) GCA outings. We need to remedy that first.
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Brad,
Great photo tour and I agree that Holston is one of the best Ross courses I've played. So much variety, width, REAL bunker hazards, and wonderful flow. My only regret is not playing it more than once. I'd like to play it from different tees when and if the game comes around. It has a very stout opening hole for a Ross course. I'd give the course a 8.5-9 after one play. From the drive in, to the clubhouse, the staff, and the members I can't think of anything but praise for the course.
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Brad,
Great photo tour and I agree that Holston is one of the best Ross courses I've played. So much variety, width, REAL bunker hazards, and wonderful flow. My only regret is not playing it more than once. I'd like to play it from different tees when and if the game comes around. It has a very stout opening hole for a Ross course. I'd give the course a 8.5-9 after one play. From the drive in, to the clubhouse, the staff, and the members I can't think of anything but praise for the course.
What other Ross courses have you played?
If HH is a 9, what courses that you've played would you rate higher?
Do you use a 10 point scale?
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I will actually stick with 8.5 due to the tree on #2 left up, even though it was in original design.
Mid Pines 9
Inverness 8.5
#2 pre rest. 8.5
franklin hills 8.5
scioto 8
pine needles 8
Southern pines 8
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Ben, trees grow over time.
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I definitely want to check out Holston Hills. Not sure there are any Ross designs I want to play more so than HH.
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I definitely want to check out Holston Hills. Not sure there are any Ross designs I want to play more so than HH.
Which Ross courses have you already played?
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I definitely want to check out Holston Hills. Not sure there are any Ross designs I want to play more so than HH.
Which Ross courses have you already played?
Do I need to prove something to you? We can't all drop everything and play Seminole or Plainfield just to put another notch on a belt.
I don't keep a running tally, but here goes from memory: Brookside, Oakland Hills, Timuquana, Springfield, Scioto, Columbus, Congress Lake, Hyde Park, Granville, Detroit. If that's not good enough, oh well.
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I definitely want to check out Holston Hills. Not sure there are any Ross designs I want to play more so than HH.
Which Ross courses have you already played?
Do I need to prove something to you? We can't all drop everything and play Seminole or Plainfield just to put another notch on a belt.
I don't keep a running tally, but here goes from memory: Brookside, Oakland Hills, Timuquana, Springfield, Scioto, Columbus, Congress Lake, Hyde Park, Granville, Detroit. If that's not good enough, oh well.
Wow. Chill out. It's hard to understand the context of a comment like yours without knowing which courses you've played. Relax.
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I definitely want to check out Holston Hills. Not sure there are any Ross designs I want to play more so than HH.
Which Ross courses have you already played?
Do I need to prove something to you? We can't all drop everything and play Seminole or Plainfield just to put another notch on a belt.
I don't keep a running tally, but here goes from memory: Brookside, Oakland Hills, Timuquana, Springfield, Scioto, Columbus, Congress Lake, Hyde Park, Granville, Detroit. If that's not good enough, oh well.
Wow. Chill out. It's hard to understand the context of a comment like yours without knowing which courses you've played. Relax.
Sorry, I took it out of context. My apologies. I only meant to originally say that I want to play HH.
Long day...didn't mean to be snarky.
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I liked both Mid-Pines (pre-reno) and Southern Pines but prefer Holston Hills to either of them. Pine Needles is one of my very favorite courses and was for a long time my favorite among the Ross courses I've played. There was some "Ross" character still in evidence at Granville Golf Club in Ohio when I played there and that little course really charms the socks off me for reasons I can't fully articulate.
So among the Ross courses I've played 2-3 times I'd say they fall in two classes. Mid-Pines, Southern Pines and what's left of Granville in the "liked" group with Holston Hills and Pine Needles a notch higher with a "loved" rating.
Having said all that...
Camden (SC) Country Club, my home course, predates Donald Ross and has been tinkered more than once since Donald Ross. So not a purebred Ross like HH or some of the others being discussed. Still, the elements you can see and play today are more "Donald Ross" than they are "Walter Travis" or "Kris Spence" and I think it has a safe place on most people's Ross list.
There's a funny vibe about Camden due to it being a palimpsest. Most of today's actual playing features have a definite Donald Ross feel about them but there's always a sense that the greens and bunkers are draped on the bones of the older course dating back to Travis or even before.
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Back to HH, I once heard from a friend who played it a few times that it has retained much of its original Ross character. He attributed that, in no small part, to the fact that the club never had the money to alter the Ross design. So if true, that is fortunate.
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HH is a great golf course. I wouldn't give it a 8.5-9 but it is sporty and fun. It is a great city club Ross course. In the same vein as Beverly, Carolina GC and Augusta CC.
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Mid Pines 9
Inverness 8.5
#2 pre rest. 8.5
franklin hills 8.5
scioto 8
pine needles 8
Southern pines 8
Wow, you must be a huge fan of Ross. Those are some high numbers.
I would dearly love to see HH at some point, but Tennessee...? I hear Smith somebody or other lives there.
Ciao
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Ben, trees grow over time.
The tree that Ben referred to on 2 is a tulip poplar. These trees grow quickly when they are young, which presumably is something Ross would have been aware of. In photos from the 30s, the tree is already substantial. It seems quite likely that Ross knew the tree would be tall. He probably didn't anticipate how far the ball would go in the modern area, and thus maybe not the whinging from longer hitters about the tree.
I think the hole could be fine without the tree and maybe even "better" architecturally. Ross left the tree there, though, and I'm not sure why people feel the need to fix his perceived mistake. I fear it will be removed eventually in the interest of fairness, and the course will be a bit less memorable as a result.
I agree that Holston is around an 8.5 (if you use an 11 point scale).
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Here is a photo of the tee shot on hole 2 for reference.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s310/treykemp/2_zps4x5lwhxt.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/treykemp/media/2_zps4x5lwhxt.jpg.html)
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So is the scale or perspective off in that photo?
I can't remember any tree affecting my tee shot on that hole when I last played at Holston Hills. But if it's as small and out of the way as it looks in that picture, no wonder. Being a lefty slicer that looks like a complete non-factor and I'd imagine any stronger player who wanted to could play over or around it no problem.
But maybe it's really 50 feet tall, 20 feet wide, directly in the line of play and my memory is just more leaky than my driver swing.
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I agree with John, I like the tree on #2 and hope it is there for a long time. HH is one of the best walks in golf.
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Ben, trees grow over time.
The tree that Ben referred to on 2 is a tulip poplar. These trees grow quickly when they are young, which presumably is something Ross would have been aware of. In photos from the 30s, the tree is already substantial. It seems quite likely that Ross knew the tree would be tall. He probably didn't anticipate how far the ball would go in the modern area, and thus maybe not the whinging from longer hitters about the tree.
I think the hole could be fine without the tree and maybe even "better" architecturally. Ross left the tree there, though, and I'm not sure why people feel the need to fix his perceived mistake. I fear it will be removed eventually in the interest of fairness, and the course will be a bit less memorable as a result.
I agree that Holston is around an 8.5 (if you use an 11 point scale).
John,
I personally love strategic tree(s) and blind shots, but I think strategic trees by water and blind shots with water are very bad architecturally. I did hit it in the fairway. I believe the pond was there from the beginning, but I'm not positive if it was added for irrigation down the line. I am very much against the word ''Fair''. I am a big fan of Ross and many other golden age greats, i think from time to time even the best may make a mistake or so. It will hardly be less memorable imo, for it will give more risk and reward and temp more into pulling out the big stick and make bigger numbers. JMO I give it an 8.5 out of 10 and it is a great walk.
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I was there with Ben and I agree it's a great place. The finish (16-18) really stood out to me. On the card, it looks like it should be an easy stretch with birdie/par opportunities because there is a short par 4 (305 yards) followed by two par 5's. On all three of these holes, it is very easy to get out of position and make a double.
The uphill 16th was probably my favorite on the course. It has perfectly placed cross bunkers that make hitting driver very awkward, bailing out onto 17 tee might be the best spot. If you lay up with an iron off the tee, an uphill blind short iron awaits. From the bottom of that hill it is very difficult to hit one close and you know there is a bunker just long. I think it would take a dozen rounds before I would feel comfortable and be able to play that hole with anything resembling confidence. It is one of the better short par 4's I've ever played.
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Here is a photo of the tee shot on hole 2 for reference.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s310/treykemp/2_zps4x5lwhxt.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/treykemp/media/2_zps4x5lwhxt.jpg.html)
I don't like trees blocking views of bunkers unless its obviously a hole swinging around a large stand of trees. I don't see the point in terms playability versus the tradeoff in how bad it looks.
Ciao
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Then again, there might not be a more strategic tree in all of golfdom.
Bogey
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I can't remember hole numbers, is that the one where there's a huge embankment on the left side of the fairway? If you try to play too far left you can go down there like 6-8 feet below the fairway?
Or is that another hole?
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Then again, there might not be a more strategic tree in all of golfdom.
Bogey
Bogey
Not likely, but what then is the point of the bunker?
Ciao
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Then again, there might not be a more strategic tree in all of golfdom.
Bogey
Bogey
Not likely, but what then is the point of the bunker?
Ciao
To challenge the hitters that bomb their tee shot over the tree.
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I can't remember hole numbers, is that the one where there's a huge embankment on the left side of the fairway? If you try to play too far left you can go down there like 6-8 feet below the fairway?
Or is that another hole?
I believe that hole runs along the river, 4, 5, or 6 maybe?
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Number 2 has the drop-off along the left side of the fairway - been down there dozens of times.
The tree really only comes into play from the members tees, requiring a nice draw to get to the middle of the fairway. From the back tees the longer hitters simply go over the tree, leaving anywhere from 100 to 50 yards in. I volunteered at the US Open Qualifying at Holston a couple of weeks ago and never saw the tree come into play once.
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Number 2 has the drop-off along the left side of the fairway - been down there dozens of times.
The tree really only comes into play from the members tees, requiring a nice draw to get to the middle of the fairway. From the back tees the longer hitters simply go over the tree, leaving anywhere from 100 to 50 yards in. I volunteered at the US Open Qualifying at Holston a couple of weeks ago and never saw the tree come into play once.
My memory had misplaced the hole as being later in the round (it's been too many years since my last visit to HH) but as a lefty with a slice, the tree was indeed not a serious concern for my game.
And I'm not surprised that stronger players find it no more an impediment than hitting a bit of extra-tall rough grass. Those guys nowadays routinely hit over much taller trees, much closer to the tee. Quite remarkable what the normal driver trajectory is for elite players today.
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(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o175/jtsponcia/IMG_6228_zpsipq8rdis.jpg) (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/jtsponcia/media/IMG_6228_zpsipq8rdis.jpg.html)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o175/jtsponcia/IMG_6225_zpsmqflyoxa.jpg) (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/jtsponcia/media/IMG_6225_zpsmqflyoxa.jpg.html)
Rough was up, greens were fast, and my good friend Jason Thurman had his first crack at Holston today. We had fun. Interested to hear his impressions - in writing.
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As Joe mentions, I was able to join him at Holston on Thursday morning. After a few days off the grid, here are a few thoughts:
1. No course I've visited can match the views on offer from the Holston Hills clubhouse. Looking out across the Tennessee River valley, you see almost the entire course stretching over the valley floor with long, unencumbered views interrupted only by the occasional specimen tree and those gorgeous and striking bunkers scattered all over the property. Holston Hills might be the best example I've played of what a good tree management program can do, as the course has two big and seemingly contrasting benefits that result from its openness: an intimacy that comes from being able to see other games working their way around, and a brawny quality that stems from the feeling of having plenty of room to play.
2. Even though I'm a hack, I'm a big fan of courses that are fun to play in competition. Holston Hills immediately jumps out to me as a place that would be a blast to play in almost any competitive format. For one thing, there aren't many lost ball opportunities but the course still offers lots of challenging features with its plentiful bunkering and terrifying green contours. From a competitive perspective, I also enjoyed the way that each side starts by kicking you in the stomach for a few holes, before giving an opportunity to get some strokes back later. I actually can't think of another course that so clearly assaults a player for 4-5 holes at the beginning of each side before letting up and giving a rally opportunity on the last 4-5 holes before returning to the clubhouse.
3. The tree on 2 is stupid, but as someone who can conjure a slinging hook around a corner like that at will, I appreciated the clear aiming corridor it gave me.
4. It's silly to try and choose a favorite hole on a course this strong from start to finish, and I can only think of one or two that would make me shake my head if someone named them as the best. It's not a surprise to look through this thread and see people naming the two sterling short par fours at 6 and 16 as their favorites - I think a lot of us are predisposed to like holes that are interesting but don't beat the crap out of us. It's hard for me to overlook some of the course's wonderful ballbusters though. 3, 12, 13, and 14 stood out to me as tougher holes that weren't just long, but also offered tons of interest through varied bunkering schemes, compelling terrain, and tough green contours.
Playing golf with Joe is always a treat. He's as generous and gracious as they come, and his swing is a model of simple, ultra-efficient beauty and consistency. We could've played anywhere and had a good time, but it's a nice bonus to hit a course as cool as Holston Hills. Holston cracks my top three Ross courses played and I'd recommend it highly to anyone who loves golf.
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Well said, Jason. I've only played there a couple of times but look forward to visiting again in the future. In particular your comment about its great combination of openness with intimacy is spot on.
P.S. As is the part about "terrifying". ;)
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Jason,
Thanks for the quick summation. Our club just sent out the annual RSVP for the interclub with Holston. It's down there this year and I'm extremely excited to finally make the trip.
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Jason,
Thanks for the quick summation. Our club just sent out the annual RSVP for the interclub with Holston. It's down there this year and I'm extremely excited to finally make the trip.
I'm sure the guys at Holston are not nearly as excited with the task of playing against you!
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Jason,
I am not a fan of #2 tree at all. As I stated when we played...it would really dare people into a worse shot if it were gone, but I respect the opinion of several members who have told me it has always been there.
It is the only dictatorial hole on the course.
Your blunt opinion makes me wonder...do we just get used to an otherwise aberration, and a few plays later find ourselves defending it?
Holston was in near perfect shape. Rough was up and thick. Three things struck me as I tried my best to play with fresh eyes: 1. The options you have from the tee box, 2. The variety of clubs and shots that need to be played, 3. As I walk a course...I find myself placing a tee box here or a green pad there. Holston is one of those routings (at least for me) where I DON'T do this --- even after repeated plays.
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1. The options you have from the tee box
And Joe, to add to this, I found the meaningful width at Holston to be about as significant as that of any course I've played this year. Here's what I mean:
The current thread asking whether it's preferable for dogleg hole greens to open from the inside or outside (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61539.0.html) has illustrated an idea, held by many, that "Position A" on a hole should be very clear. In other words, many people prefer a hole where the ideal position off the tee is one that offers a short approach with an advantageous angle into the green and with few obstacles directly in the way to negotiate. Think of a dogleg hole with a green that opens from the inside - a player who hugs the corner tightly is left with a short approach from a good angle, while the player who bails to the wide side off the tee is left with a long approach from a crappy angle.
I find myself, instead, more interested in holes that don't tell you as blatantly how they should be played. It strikes me that Holston Hills has many of these. It was something I noticed on 12 and 13, two fairly long par 4s on the back side. I pushed drives to the right on both holes and was left with between 170 and 190 yards from the Bermuda rough. In both cases, I was left with an angle of approach that required carrying fronting bunkers some 30 yards short of the front edge that would have been less prominent on an approach from the left side. And yet, in both cases, the green was also tilted to favor the approach from the right side, and the greenside bunker on 12 was less in play than it would have been if I were approaching from the left. Coming out of the thick Bermuda rough, I was acutely aware of the need to carry those fronting bunkers even though I hit no more than 8 iron to either hole. But I also knew that if the ball came out low and hot as I was expecting, and managed to carry the hazards, I'd be rewarded with a green sloped to put the brakes on my ball. Watching the ball just clear the fronting bunker on 12 before running up the slope to the middle of the green was one of the most exciting moments in the round, at least until I saw the ensuing downhill putt up close for the first time.
It occurs to me that there is no universal "right place to be" off the tee on either hole. A weaker player with a low ballflight would likely favor the left side on both holes, as he'd have less reason to worry about the fronting bunkers from there and could try to get up and down from in front if his ball funneled off the green due to its slope being difficult to hold from that angle. For a player who hits the ball a little higher, the right side seemed advantageous to me as most strong players won't have much issue clearing the fronting bunkers and the approach angle looks downright inviting from that side on each hole. Holes 2 and 15 are similar, as both offer shorter approaches for a player who hugs the left side but better angles to a player who goes more to the right. That variety does a few things for Holston Hills. For one, it makes its options more meaningful and subtle, as there are more potential ways to play each hole with none of them clearly spelled out even to the seasoned player. But it also makes the course fun for a wider range of handicaps, as all different types of players will be able to eventually find a path of reward on most holes.
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It occurs to me that there is no universal "right place to be" off the tee on either hole. A weaker player with a low ballflight would likely favor the left side on both holes, as he'd have less reason to worry about the fronting bunkers from there and could try to get up and down from in front if his ball funneled off the green due to its slope being difficult to hold from that angle. For a player who hits the ball a little higher, the right side seemed advantageous to me as most strong players won't have much issue clearing the fronting bunkers and the approach angle looks downright inviting from that side on each hole.
Interesting observation,
There are several holes of this type at my home course (Camden CC), not too surprising given that our club's course is on similar terrain and most of its design is due Donald Ross in a similar time frame to Holston Hills. At my former club (Columbia CC, Ellis Maples 1961) one might expect similar features but I found it tended to have a more clearly implied "Position A" on each hole, at least for the range of golfers I've played there with (basically 2 to 30 handicap amateurs),
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Your blunt opinion makes me wonder...do we just get used to an otherwise aberration, and a few plays later find ourselves defending it?
Probably some truth in that statement. The tree on #2 does not bother me, but then again I don't play HH on a regular basis. I also like the tree on #3 at Sweetens Cove. Nothing wrong with a little variety here and there.
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The only time in my golfing life I've been able to consistently hit a (lefty) draw was during a year and a half when I was doing at practice drill at the places I was then playing golf. There was a far corner of the driving range where I could line up with a pine tree just barely obscuring my view of a driving-range flag. Any left-handed straight shot or slice would either hit the tree or end up 20+ yards to the left of that flag. So I'd sit there and hit 20, 30, 40 shots with a 5-iron once a week, making it start out well to the left and draw back on target.
If I were a right-handed member of Holston Hills I'd love having that tree there. Good reminder early in the round of the shot shape I'm trying to produce.
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The Holston Hills photo tour was very nostalgic for me, thanks for such a detailed account. I played there once, in March 1994, when I was in town for the NCAA tournament regionals, which were being played nearby. On the days in between the games we went to play this course. I was only 16 at the time, and have only vague memories of the course -- my game and my attitude were not exactly great in those days -- but I remember it being really great. These photos really took me back to that round.
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I am going for the first time for potentially 5 rounds over 3 days in early October. Can't wait!
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Played Holston Hills just over a month ago on a Saturday afternoon (the football team was playing that afternoon, so aside from a bunch of orange-clad golfers finishing their rounds around 1pm when we started, the course was fairly empty).
By far my favorite course (over Sewanee) on the trip that included NCR South, Idle Hour, and Sewanee/Sweetens. I only played it once, but the course may have jumped immediately into my top 20 (15? 10???). Loved almost everything about it.
Many said it already and better than I would, but the course had a great mix of… everything. Just enough quirk. Just enough "blindness." Just enough short holes and long holes. Etc.
Loved it. All of it.