Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Chip Gaskins on October 12, 2010, 06:15:24 PM
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When you paint the Mona Lisa every time it’s hard to outdo yourself, but Coore & Crenshaw have done it.
Dormie Club, just outside of Pinehurst, may very well be their best course.
No, it didn’t break any molds or launch a whole new wave of golden age architecture like Sand Hills did, but hole for hole it might quite frankly be their best work.
I have played ¾ of Coore and Creenshaw’s courses and I can’t see how Dormie Club is not at the very least tied with Sand Hills for their best, if not THE best.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Hidden Creek and especially the way it is maintained and think Bandon Trails is intoxicating as it meanders between dunes, meadow and Pacific Northwest forest…but hole for hole, Dormie has to be considered near the top.
It certainly feels like they had the only 300 acres in the Pinehurst sandhills that has that much terrain movement. It’s really hard to reconcile the flatness of many Pinehurst courses (including Pinehurst #2) with the up and down nature of many of the holes at Dormie. The variety of uphill, downhill, and sidehill lies makes their normally magical greens even more intriguing.
With exception of Augusta National this might be the best course in the southeastern US and instantly in the top 15-20 in the U.S.
Hole #1
Approach
A nice little par 4 to get the round started. Downhill off the tee to a set of cross-bunkers and an uncluttered greensite that slopes from back to front.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5073234641_012a6bce08.jpg)
Hole #2
Tee
Great dogleg left with a challenging inside fairway bunker.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5073238927_fb2c5f765d.jpg)
Hole #2
Approach
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5073234703_ffeb28ea18.jpg)
Hole #3
Tee
Probably my favorite hole on the course. A great shot par 4 that pleads with the player to hit driver, which only brings the large right side bunkers into play.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5073239125_24ba29133e.jpg)
Hole #3
Green
As you can see the second shot is the most crucial on this hole. A green with several distinctive tiers. If you are not on the correct one you are more than likely three putting (at best). This puts such a premium on being able to control your approach shot.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5073234923_50b6731c8e.jpg)
Hole #3
Green
This green reminds of the at old Alistair Mackenzie photo of the over the top green at Sitwell Park. This green is by no means over the top, especially for such a short hole, it simply mandates the player find the right plateau on their approach.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5073234799_dbd600fc19.jpg)
Hole #4
Tee shot
Great par 4 that sweeps down and around to the left.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5073235117_8bb043f755.jpg)
Hole #4
Approach
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5073235021_e76e88dd10.jpg)
Hole #4
Looking Back
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5073235205_96091404cd.jpg)
Hole #5
Tee
One of the most tranquil settings I have experienced on a golf course. Really an amazing spot. I have heard that Bill Coore said he “doesn’t do water” but they have really figured out how to incorporate this lake into both a beautiful backdrop for your approach to #4 as well as your tee shot on #5.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/5073866468_eaa58f6e2e.jpg)
Hole #6
Width!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5073238789_699793291c.jpg)
Hole #6
Fairway
This fairway has to be over 100 yards wide in spots. Which didn’t keep me from missing it.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5073235313_00752c8125.jpg)
Hole #6
Green
Great little scar bunkers that Coore and Crenshaw are becoming famous for.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/5073831890_1c003d81e1.jpg)
Hole #7
Medium length par 3 across a waste area with a small stream running through it. If you stare at it long enough I suppose you can see some reverse Redan characteristics.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5073832034_d962bb2f65.jpg)
Hole #8
Tee
Tee shot up over a ridge to a fairway that runs down to the left.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5073235737_b368f2f647.jpg)
Hole #8
Second
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5073235891_2838e9e110.jpg)
Hole #8
Approach
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5073236059_89f12b91b2.jpg)
Hole #9
As I have said before it seems to be a lost art to build a short par 3, especially a great one like Ballyneal #3 or Hidden Creek #11, however Dormie has two. #9 and #12 are wonderful short par 3 holes. Who said hitting a pitching wedge on a par 3 can’t be very fun (and challenging)!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5073236257_717f0e665b.jpg)
Hole #10
Approach
Here the approach reminds me a lot of the approach at Bandon Trails #9 with its lack of clutter and green set right at fairway height.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5073236435_c86c137e15.jpg)
Hole #10
Green
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5073833096_8e2a3d7dd6.jpg)
Hole #11
Tee
Its here you hear the words Pine Valley start to be spoken. There are several holes from this point on that really remind you of Pine Valley’s scrubby waste areas more than any other place on the course.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5073832974_513beb41e1.jpg)
Hole #11
Approach
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5073236857_99237352b0.jpg)
Hole# 12
Tee
A fabulous short par 3 that has a well bunkered green that has numerous small tiers for some really challenging pin placements.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5073236991_e15a16b2c9.jpg)
Hole #14
Tee
A drivable par 4 with a massive front right bunker that eats up all those who try to be a hero. Somewhat reminds me of #14 at Bandon Trails. Two folks in our group made bogey or worse from inside 100 yards.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4113/5073833520_ff39ac5731.jpg)
Hole #15
Tee
Wow! What a great tee shot. A cape style hole that really makes you shape a shot off the bunkers straight off the tee or take the more aggressive direct line that brings the scrubby waste area very much into play. You really have to make your mind up off the tee on what you are trying to do, otherwise the indecision will lead to a big big number. Just ask….
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5073866654_e04c71ce40.jpg)
Hole #15
Green
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/5073833678_15e3f50cd3.jpg)
Hole #16
Tee
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5073237609_5130651892.jpg)
Hole #16
Green
Something about this green reminded me of a Biarritz without the front pad.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/5073834292_98f6baa629.jpg)
Hole #17
Tee
Certainly one of the most dramatic holes on the course. Medium length par 5 that really goes up hill on the approach shot.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5073237775_70b3499608.jpg)
Hole #17
Approach
You can really see that the fairway is well (maybe 50-60 feet) below the green.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5073834388_e511ac34fb.jpg)
Hole #17
Uphill
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5073238443_09984b3bff.jpg)
Hole #17
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5073238187_44197a758e.jpg)
Hole #17
Looking Back
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5073238339_e54dd7c4bb.jpg)
Hole #18
Approach
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5073834854_22ede58cc7.jpg)
Hole #18
Looking Back
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5073834968_4d3f420fdc.jpg)
In summary, if you get a chance to see Dormie Club you have to take it. It is the best in Pinehurst, the state of North Carolina and probably 2nd or 3rd (I haven’t played Seminole) in the Southeast. Amazing place!!!
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Wonderful photos, it looks terrific. Thanks for sharing!!
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How firm and fast did it play? Some of the fairways seem to tilt pretty nicely.
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Looks fantastic. W&L's mid-Winter Term break is towards the end of February and the team is set to play our first tournament of the Spring at Pine Needles. It looks like it may be worth trying to go there a day early in order to play Dormie Club (I had read it is actually open to the public currently; this is still correct, right?).
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#15 green reminds me a lot of the numerous greens at C&C's first course, Barton Creek (TX), in the way it's just draped over the existing terrain.
Are there any front to back sloping greens?
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Amazing how similar their courses are looking.....Clear Creek without the views?
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Wow......................... I had a trip planned to the area a few weeks ago that had to be cancelled b/c of work...now I'm even more anxious to make it up there.
Is it open to the public or for limited play?
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Chip
I love how C&C allow run-up approaches to a lot of their greens. There's almost a Pine Valleyish look to some of those holes.
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Thanks for the tour Chip, its fantastic that they got the course finished.
Do you have any photos of the greens at 9 and 12?
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Chip,
There goes C&C building courses "at grade" with the land and allowing the golfer to experience "friendly blindness". They are two of their tricks that I enjoy the most. They also do a fantastic job of handing you over a huge bailout area on most approach shots, and then visually making you want to hit towards trouble.
Aesthetically, give that course some maturation and it could be the best looking course in the southeast.
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Looks great. Anyone know if this is public, private, greens fees, accessibility?
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My experience with C&C courses - and this one looks to be the same - is that you are SO much better to be on line and short than hole high and just wide. Their courses really test your course management skills.
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Amazing how similar their courses are looking.....Clear Creek without the views?
I have to agree. I don't see anything compelling to get on a plane to fly across the country to play it. The one thing I am sure is that it is well built, the workmanship almost perfect.
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Chip, several people said on earlier threads that a fair amount of detail work remains, that would bring the course up to its full potential. Any thoughts/comments about that?
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Are the greens as flat as they look in these pictures?
I will also agree that there seems to be a certain amount of sameness. The tee shot on the 6th pictured here is very reminiscent of the 7th at Sugarloaf Mountain.
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JC, many of the greens do appear sort of flat in the photos (3 and 12 being among the exceptions) - but they all have what I would describe as subtle movement. For instance, the 202 yard 16th encourages you to land just short of the green. There is a gentle spine running vertically down the middle of that green which will swing the rolling ball one way or the other. If you look at the fourth hole from the fairway it looks like everything will break to the right - but it actually breaks left in places.
Believe me, the greens there have plenty of interesting things going on.
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Don't be fooled, there is an awful lot going on in these greens.
Played two weeks ago with two groups of solid players and to a man everyone enjoyed the course immensely.
Chip, the only hole that the group was lukewarm about was 15. It seems as though the tee should be set further left. In its present location the angle isn't much to contend with and a straight 3 wood leaves a reasonably short shot in.
All in, however, the course is outstanding.
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Don't be fooled, there is an awful lot going on in these greens.
Played two weeks ago with two groups of solid players and to a man everyone enjoyed the course immensely.
Chip, the only hole that the group was lukewarm about was 15. It seems as though the tee should be set further left. In its present location the angle isn't much to contend with and a straight 3 wood leaves a reasonably short shot in.
All in, however, the course is outstanding.
Rory-
Good call on 15. Two years ago after it was built I was standing on the forward tee with Bill Coore and he suggested he liked that angle better. The wetlands restrictions and the water left of the back tees prevented those tees from moving further left.
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Dormie Club, just outside of Pinehurst, may very well be their best course.
With exception of Augusta National this might be the best course in the southeastern US and instantly in the top 15-20 in the U.S.
Chip,
If it is possible, you just made me want to play DC even more than I already did.
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Dormie Club, just outside of Pinehurst, may very well be their best course.
With exception of Augusta National this might be the best course in the southeastern US and instantly in the top 15-20 in the U.S.
Chip,
If it is possible, you just made me want to play DC even more than I already did.
Thanks for the pictures and report Chip. High praise indeed!
I've heard from some friends who have played it recently and they all said it's very good. But for some reason I find it hard to think it's top 10 (!!!) in the U.S. from the pictures. More reason to head out and see it for myself next time I'm down there :)
Also, DC isn't the only course in Pinehurst that has some movement in the land, both courses at Forest Creek has some nice elevation change and generally plays over rolling terrain.
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With exception of Augusta National this might be the best course in the southeastern US and instantly in the top 15-20 in the U.S.
Chip,
Have you played Old Town?
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Great tour there Chip, thanks! There's a lot to like about the presentation of this golf course. Subtle movement, sandy soil, gorgeous bunkering...it's great to hear it has come together so well.
Your remark about Dormie possibly being Coore & Crenshaw's best reminded me of Bart Bradley's similar comment regarding the course from a couple of years ago, so I went and dug that one up from a previous thread.
It will not surprise me in the least if The Dormie surpasses Sand Hills as the #1 Crenshaw and Coore course but time will tell....I only was able to play 7 holes ....although the short par 3 12th (not yet playable) was another gem.
Bart
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How firm and fast did it play? Some of the fairways seem to tilt pretty nicely.
Jim
As you know with bermuda grass (versus fescue) it is hard to get it super bouncy but yes, it was firm and fast. Several shots I played 20 yards short and bumped a 8 iron in from 120-130 yards, which is fun.
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#15 green reminds me a lot of the numerous greens at C&C's first course, Barton Creek (TX), in the way it's just draped over the existing terrain.
Are there any front to back sloping greens?
Bill- #8 is as close to front to back as I think there is and its really more side hill
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Chip
I love how C&C allow run-up approaches to a lot of their greens. There's almost a Pine Valleyish look to some of those holes.
Kevin
Pine Valley comes up a lot, especially on the middle of the back nine. There is a lot more width at Dormie though.
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Thanks for the tour Chip, its fantastic that they got the course finished.
Do you have any photos of the greens at 9 and 12?
David
Pics of 9 & 12...neither picture is very good, especially at showing the multiple tiers.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/5078666918_ee271882a2.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5078075617_03e50dfda2.jpg)
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It is nigh impossible for me to believe that this course is the equal of Sand Hills, but a lot of that is geological and psychological. Meaning: the landscape upon which Sand Hills was built strikes me as more dramatic and more suitable for this style of golf course. Psychologically, there is something utterly beguiling about the drive into Mullen Nebraska, with its empty plains that heightens and magnifies the Sand Hills experience.
Having said that, these photographs sure look terrific. It means Dormie Club is now a must play in that area.
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Great tour there Chip, thanks! There's a lot to like about the presentation of this golf course. Subtle movement, sandy soil, gorgeous bunkering...it's great to hear it has come together so well.
Your remark about Dormie possibly being Coore & Crenshaw's best reminded me of Bart Bradley's similar comment regarding the course from a couple of years ago, so I went and dug that one up from a previous thread.
It will not surprise me in the least if The Dormie surpasses Sand Hills as the #1 Crenshaw and Coore course but time will tell....I only was able to play 7 holes ....although the short par 3 12th (not yet playable) was another gem.
Bart
Eric
I am sure Bart and I will not be the only ones to say that either. It really is that good. If they can keep it firm and fast then it has so many great ground game options around the greens, which in my opinion, is where Coore & Crenshaw's talents shine. Make the trip over to see it.
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Chip - Thanks again for sharing...
Can someone please give an update on public/private/access? Seems like there is a decent amount of play there recently, so wondering if it's limited to people that already belong to a private club, or if you can call and get a tee time.
Seems a shame to keep this away from the public..............
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Chip,
Great pics and it looks to be a great experience. It looks like I will have to add it to the Sandhills trip I am planning for a 3 day weekend in March....
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Having only seen both courses in pictures it looks a lot like Cuscowilla to me.
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Having only seen both courses in pictures it looks a lot like Cuscowilla to me.
Bill,
This reminds me--I looked through the photos this morning and wondered (for those that think Dormie is C & C's best or close to it) what makes it better than Cuscowilla? I don't mean that as a slight--of the five C/C courses I've played, Cuscowilla is my favorite.
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Andy,
I can't make a judgement on either course wiithout playing or seeing the courses first hand. All I'm saying is they look similar to me in pictures.
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Andy-
It is unlikely to have one bad-to-terrible hole, which Cusco does.
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Chip:
Top 20 in the USA ?
Were you including all existing courses or simply those from the modern era ?
Love to see your top ten C&C ratings of the ones you have played and where would you assess them in your personal top 100 ?
thanks ...
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Andy-
It is unlikely to have one bad-to-terrible hole, which Cusco does.
Which one? I have to admit that I didn't find any of them bad-to-terrible. I can't say that I loved them all, but nothing awful.
Bill,
Didn't necessarily mean to ask you for answer with that previous post--it was just that your comment had reminded me that I'd thought the same thing!
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The very premise of this thread has got to be one of the greatest exaggerations ever.
Sure it looks like a nice golf course to play, but equal to or better than Sand Hills? Top 10 or 15 in the US? Based on the pics I really don't see it. Looks like a solid 7 or 8 on 10, but not the type of course worth making a special trip to see.
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Andy-
14, the par 5.
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The very premise of this thread has got to be one of the greatest exaggerations ever.
Sure it looks like a nice golf course to play, but equal to or better than Sand Hills? Top 10 or 15 in the US? Based on the pics I really don't see it. Looks like a solid 7 or 8 on 10, but not the type of course worth making a special trip to see.
Matt
Have you played Dormie Club?
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Andy-
14, the par 5.
Interesting. I actually like that hole quite a bit as a true three-shot hole.
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Chip:
Top 20 in the USA ?
Were you including all existing courses or simply those from the modern era ?
Love to see your top ten C&C ratings of the ones you have played and where would you assess them in your personal top 100 ?
thanks ...
Matt
I am going to invoke the Matt Ward rule and say "I don't like to publicly rank courses"..... ;D
I will get back to you on this, in the meantime its too fun reading all these post on how mediocre the course "looks"
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The very premise of this thread has got to be one of the greatest exaggerations ever.
Sure it looks like a nice golf course to play, but equal to or better than Sand Hills? Top 10 or 15 in the US? Based on the pics I really don't see it. Looks like a solid 7 or 8 on 10, but not the type of course worth making a special trip to see.
Matt
Have you played Dormie Club?
Nope, and in my comment I made it clear that what I said was based on pics. So take it for what it's worth. But I feel pretty comfortable saying based on these pics that this is not a top 10 in America golf course.
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I think the pics look terrific and the friends of mine that have played it say it is fantastic. I am guessing it will fall around Old Sandwich for me (which I love).
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The question of public?/greens fees etc. asked many times. Anyone have an answer?
Caddies? If so how much?
I have talked to a couple of people who have played it.
One 18ish handicap complained about long carries (for him) over wetlands type areas.
I asked him specifically if he meant waste areas or marshy and therefore unlikely to be playable. He said it was wetlands and definitely NOT wastr areas.
Chip- how about it?
Harwell
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The very premise of this thread has got to be one of the greatest exaggerations ever.
Sure it looks like a nice golf course to play, but equal to or better than Sand Hills? Top 10 or 15 in the US? Based on the pics I really don't see it. Looks like a solid 7 or 8 on 10, but not the type of course worth making a special trip to see.
Matt
Have you played Dormie Club?
Nope, and in my comment I made it clear that what I said was based on pics. So take it for what it's worth. But I feel pretty comfortable saying based on these pics that this is not a top 10 in America golf course.
Matt
Just clearing up what I said. I said "in the top 15-20 in the U.S." and yes, like Matt Ward mentioned, I meant the modern GolfWeek list we all talk about on here.
Here is the list:
2010 Golfweek’s Best Modern Courses
The Modern
1960-Present
1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Whistling Straits
4. Bandon Dunes
5. Ballyneal
6. Sebonack
7. The Golf Club
8. Pete Dye Golf Club
9. Friar’s Head
10. Shadow Creek
11. Muirfield Village
12. Old Sandwich
13. Kinloch
14. Spyglass Hill
15. Honors Course
16. TPC Sawgrass
17. Ocean Course
18. Wade Hampton
19. Kingsley Club
20. Chambers Bay
There is no doubt in my mind Dormie Club is firmly in this list. We could even add in the Golf Digest best in America list and it still holds strong.
Though flawed, later I will do a hole by hole match between Sand Hills and Dormie. I am sure Sand Hills will win, but it won't be a blow out.
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Is something wrong with my computer or are the pictures a bit blurry? I can't really see any details.
Mark
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Top 20 Golfweek Modern is quite a bit easier group to crack than Top 20 all US.
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In addition, there are two more courses it will have STIFF competition from in the modern category, Rock Creek and Old Macdonald. Those two are in my top 10.
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I have heard from several people who have played it that Dormie is excellent, though along with Old Mac, I would add Ballyhack as a very likely need inclusion in the top 20-25 modern courses list.
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I have heard from several people who have played it that Dormie is excellent, though along with Old Mac, I would add Ballyhack as a very likely need inclusion in the top 20-25 modern courses list.
But Jeremy, Ballyhack wasn't designed by Doak or C&C.
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Chip: The course definitely looks really good and certainly makes a trip to Pinehurst more worthwhile. There is definitely a resemblance with Hidden Creek and I am thinking that your high rating may be more a question of the ranking of some of the courses on the list rather than the position of the DC on the list. Sand Hills is a Doak 10 - do you really think the Dormie Club is that good? Are you really going to put it ahead of Friars Head on a C & C list? Okay, I respect your opinion but maybe you're just trying to justify your hard work in taking the photos and doing such a good job posting them.
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Chip: The course definitely looks really good and certainly makes a trip to Pinehurst more worthwhile. There is definitely a resemblance with Hidden Creek and I am thinking that your high rating may be more a question of the ranking of some of the courses on the list rather than the position of the DC on the list. Sand Hills is a Doak 10 - do you really think the Dormie Club is that good? Are you really going to put it ahead of Friars Head on a C & C list? Okay, I respect your opinion but maybe you're just trying to justify your hard work in taking the photos and doing such a good job posting them.
Jerry
Actually the pictures turned out like crap. Someone on here said they are blurry and they are and do a very poor job showing the detail on the greens and surrounds. You are also correct, posting pictures on GCA (especially using Flickr) has become a royal pain in the ass. However, that is by no means (I think you were tongue n cheek) why I think Dormie is so good.
Yes, it is better than Friars Head. Is it better than Sand Hills, probably not, thus my "?" in the title. As several have said here, it is hard to ignore the drive up to Mullen and the vastness of the landscape of Sand Hills so it makes a true comparison almost impossible. Just as comparing Pine Valley to Shinnecock impossible. Both are 10s but very different.
Anyway, Dormie is really really good. Certainly better than any other course in Pinehurst. Golf at its best. Sandy soil, quirk, C&C, walking, no rakes, up and down terrain, ground game (which I personally don't think Sand Hills allows for very well) etc, etc, etc.
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Chip: The course definitely looks really good and certainly makes a trip to Pinehurst more worthwhile. There is definitely a resemblance with Hidden Creek and I am thinking that your high rating may be more a question of the ranking of some of the courses on the list rather than the position of the DC on the list. Sand Hills is a Doak 10 - do you really think the Dormie Club is that good? Are you really going to put it ahead of Friars Head on a C & C list? Okay, I respect your opinion but maybe you're just trying to justify your hard work in taking the photos and doing such a good job posting them.
Jerry
Actually the pictures turned out like crap. Someone on here said they are blurry and they are and do a very poor job showing the detail on the greens and surrounds. You are also correct, posting pictures on GCA (especially using Flickr) has become a royal pain in the ass. However, that is by no means (I think you were tongue n cheek) why I think Dormie is so good.
Yes, it is better than Friars Head. Is it better than Sand Hills, probably not, thus my "?" in the title. As several have said here, it is hard to ignore the drive up to Mullen and the vastness of the landscape of Sand Hills so it makes a true comparison almost impossible. Just as comparing Pine Valley to Shinnecock impossible. Both are 10s but very different.
Anyway, Dormie is really really good. Certainly better than any other course in Pinehurst. Golf at its best. Sandy soil, quirk, C&C, walking, no rakes, up and down terrain, ground game (which I personally don't think Sand Hills allows for very well) etc, etc, etc.
Sand soil, quirk, walking, no rakes, up and down terrain, good ground game, etc., etc., etc. are all very relevant and good. I wonder how C&C fits in that equation unless you are using C&C as some sort of short hand for interesting architecture.
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What about the finish work?!
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What about the finish work?!
Yes please!!! Access info for the masses would be helpful as well.....
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What about the finish work?!
Yes please!!! Access info for the masses would be helpful as well.....
They are a private club. I know a member. With that said, I am not sure exactly what their policies are.
They do have a website with contact information on it I think.
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What about the finish work?!
Yes please!!! Access info for the masses would be helpful as well.....
They are a private club. I know a member. With that said, I am not sure exactly what their policies are.
They do have a website with contact information on it I think.
Thanks Chip...I know I'm not the only person in this thread that has asked for this info....and I think the reason why everyone is so curious is because of this thread linked below, and the first line of Ran's post in this thread, also noted below:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45533.0/
Instead of being a walking only private golf club, it now costs $150 including cart to play this public access course.
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What about the finish work?!
According to the people associated with the club that I spoke with (at length, over several days) Coore & Crenshaw finished their work at Dormie and to that point there was a representative from C&C on-site as short as a month ago. If C&C didn't do the detail finish work then I don't exactly know what they would come back and do. The greens were fantastic, the bunkers look like all other Jeff Bradley bunkers to me. It looked very finished to me.
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They are a private club. I know a member. With that said, I am not sure exactly what their policies are.
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I was considering joining there and they gave me the impression that they were welcoming prospective members. I didn't go down and play there but they definitely made the offer. I think they are interested in showing the place off to anyone that might join.
Steve
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I guess I'm just really confused as to why GCA.com was led to believe Dormie was public and you can play it for $150, when in reality, it's not................
When I called them after Ran started his thread, I spoke with the head pro Paul and he didn't allude to any indication they were looking for members, but actually the opposite, and that they would only offer reciprocal play from "select clubs on the East coast and a few towards the middle of the country"
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I have heard from several people who have played it that Dormie is excellent, though along with Old Mac, I would add Ballyhack as a very likely need inclusion in the top 20-25 modern courses list.
But Jeremy, Ballyhack wasn't designed by Doak or C&C.
Unfortunately I have not played Ballyhack. If it is anything near as good as his redo at Old White, Top 20 should be within reach for Ballyhack.
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I guess I'm just really confused as to why GCA.com was led to believe Dormie was public and you can play it for $150, when in reality, it's not................
When I called them after Ran started his thread, I spoke with the head pro Paul and he didn't allude to any indication they were looking for members, but actually the opposite, and that they would only offer reciprocal play from "select clubs on the East coast and a few towards the middle of the country"
Sounds like a chaotic situation. I'm going down to Pinehurst (West End, technically) this weekend and see if I can get any information from local folks.
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£
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This thread is beyond silly.
Chip......Jeff Bradley did not do all of the bunkers at Dormie.
Why would the folks at Dormie say that C&C design people were there as recent as a month ago finishing work?
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It seems like people are being told very different things..........................
What's so darn frustrating to me, is that this probably IS (and certainly looks like) a really amazing course, but most of us won't be able to see it, after being told that we (public) could...
Chip, once again thanks for your picture tour!
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It seems as though people are reporting having heard very different things in these Dormie Club threads. I would not necessarily assume that has anything to do with the actual situation on the ground at the club.
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It seems as though people are reporting having heard very different things in these Dormie Club threads. I would not necessarily assume that has anything to do with the actual situation on the ground at the club.
Ran, who seems like he would have accurate information, wrote the following just two months ago:
Instead of being a walking only private golf club, it now costs $150 including cart to play this public access course.
Before you might find value at that price, a couple of other things need to happen. First, Coore & Crenshaw must be called back in and allowed to finish their work. The attention to detail that elevates their work and makes it so special is missing and will remain so until they are allowed to complete this course. Reviews from C&C cognoscenti who have played Dormie have been luke-warm to date as a result. I am sure that will change IF things are done right. Before I pulled my membership money out in November 2008, I thought the course was shaping up to be in their top five - the topography, sandy soil and Coore's routing were all that good.
Also, allow time for a new green keeping crew to get in place and do some work. They will have their hands full early on as they tackle the unkempt undergrowth just off the fairways. Given that the assistant green keeper turned down the job as head, it is paramount that Dormie get a crew in that understands what it is that C&C are trying to accomplish here.
As a side note, though history will likely never recognize their efforts, Jim Evans and his crew did an OUTSTANDING job against all odds in keeping the playing surfaces in great playing condition for nearly twenty-four months. He and a small crew faced all kinds of obstacles and Jim's heroic efforts here in Pinehurst only further cement him as one of the best in his field.
The only bad news from last week is that cart paths are in the works now that Dormie is public. Let's hope they get done right because if poorly done, the course will suffer immensely.
See http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45533.0/
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I was told that there is no public access at all.
This site was told by Ran that Dormie was public and available to play for $150.
So, to me, it sounds like the situation at the club is that they are telling different people completely different things. Am I not supposed to believe that Ran was telling the truth when he started his thread? I certainly am not lying about what I was told, so I'm a little confused if that's not the situation
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Should we take into account that Ran is a former (disgruntled?) member?
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Should we take into account that Ran is a former (disgruntled?) member?
Would this imply that his thread/post was completely false information?? I find that very hard to believe....
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No implications made or attempted. Just asking a question. .
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Ok, let's say we take that statement (whether true or not) into account...how does that change things?
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Ok, let's say we take that statement (whether true or not) into account...how does that change things?
If he is a former member then his statements would have heightened credibility. If he is a disgruntled former member then perhaps he would have motive to mislead.
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I thought it was pretty clear in the prior thread that they did allow some limited public play briefly until the members got pissed off, so now they only allow limited reciprocal play from certain private clubs on the east coast and select clubs in the midwest...the situation regarding the finish work seems to be the main question. It hadn't been done as of a few months ago apparently, yet the extremely high praise and color from those who've been there recently would imply otherwise...
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Ok, let's say we take that statement (whether true or not) into account...how does that change things?
If he is a former member then his statements would have heightened credibility. If he is a disgruntled former member then perhaps he would have motive to mislead.
Thanks for explaining..that make sense to me now.
This whole situation is really weird and strange.
Jud - I thought it was pretty clear in Ran's thread that it was open for PUBLIC play...not limited, not reciprocal, not if you know a local...public, meaning anyone can call up, pay $150 and play 18 holes of golf.
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Ok, let's say we take that statement (whether true or not) into account...how does that change things?
If he is a former member then his statements would have heightened credibility. If he is a disgruntled former member then perhaps he would have motive to mislead.
Thanks for explaining..that make sense to me now.
This whole situation is really weird and strange.
Jud - I thought it was pretty clear in Ran's thread that it was open for PUBLIC play...not limited, not reciprocal, not if you know a local...public, meaning anyone can call up, pay $150 and play 18 holes of golf.
Jeff Dawson had a follow up thread (maybe not, maybe he just posted in Ran's thread) where someone said that the new policy was limited reciprocal from certain east coast clubs (maybe a midwest club).
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Chip:
Beg your pardon -- I have posted my top 25 in the USA on another thread.
I also have not commented on Dornmie Club.
But, I'd like to get your thoughts on what I asked previously.
thanks,
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Jeff D also said that anyone around town local could just call up and get a tee time too........so, who exactly does this new policy apply to?
The fact is that Ran announced to this discussion group that Dormie was open for play...I call DC to setup a time VERY shortly after his posting and they deny my request.
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I think the bottom line is that the Dormie Club doesn't know what they are either.
Of course the membership hates outside play when they paid $$$ to join and in monthly dues. But I can imagine that a developer hurting for capital has no problem taking some cash on the side to host a few "select" golfers. Essentially, if you are a member of a local club or one fairly well known your pro can get you on for a fee. That seems to be the common ground between the membership and the ownership.
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I think the bottom line is that the Dormie Club doesn't know what they are either.
Of course the membership hates outside play when they paid $$$ to join and in monthly dues. But I can imagine that a developer hurting for capital has no problem taking some cash on the side to host a few "select" golfers. Essentially, if you are a member of a local club or one fairly well known your pro can get you on for a fee. That seems to be the common ground between the membership and the ownership.
So, they need money to be able to operate, but because I don't fit into one of those two categories, my money isn't good enough for them?
I'm just a fan of gca, have never seen a C&C course, and plenty willing to give them my $$ for the opportunity to play a round....
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I think the bottom line is that the Dormie Club doesn't know what they are either.
Of course the membership hates outside play when they paid $$$ to join and in monthly dues. But I can imagine that a developer hurting for capital has no problem taking some cash on the side to host a few "select" golfers. Essentially, if you are a member of a local club or one fairly well known your pro can get you on for a fee. That seems to be the common ground between the membership and the ownership.
So, they need money to be able to operate, but because I don't fit into one of those two categories, my money isn't good enough for them?
I'm just a fan of gca, have never seen a C&C course, and plenty willing to give them my $$ for the opportunity to play a round....
Give it a year Thomas...
With the current residential housing situtation in North Carolina, a lack of a deep pocket behind the project, and the lack of people willing to pay huge initiation fees I find it hard that the club will be so snobby for long.
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This thread is beyond silly.
Chip......Jeff Bradley did not do all of the bunkers at Dormie.
Correct, just as with every other C&C course that Jeff Bradley doesn't do every bunker.
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wow, this thread has devolved just like the previous 3-4 Dormie Club threads, which is a shame. i scratch my head, why??
i posted pictures of the course and a short write up to hopefully talk about how great the actual golf course was. however, again, we end up talking about the clubs policies.
the course is an absolute gem, in great shape, simply a must see.
this is my last post on this thread. matt- i will respond you privately.
bummer
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£
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Chip - you say it's a must see, yet most of us can't see it...............but were led to believe that we could..... that's why this thread went the way it went...
The pics are awesome, the course looks fantastic and I would LOVE to play it! As I've said many times before in this thread, thanks for sharing the pics.
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Chip,
Thanks for the pictures. I too am confused as to how this thread ended up where it is...it is a shame.
The course looks really good and, quite frankly, much more "finished" than I would have expected after reading some earlier threads. Did you notice spots that appeared to be "unfinished"? Was the detailing less, uh, detailed than what you typically see at C&C courses? From your pics, this does not appear to be the case and as such it would appear that someone did some finishing work.
The course looks a little narrow in certain spots. Is that the case? Is missing a fairway as bad as it looks?
Thanks in advance!
- George
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Chip,
Thanks for the pictures. I too am confused as to how this thread ended up where it is...it is a shame.
The course looks really good and, quite frankly, much more "finished" than I would have expected after reading some earlier threads. Did you notice spots that appeared to be "unfinished"? Was the detailing less, uh, detailed than what you typically see at C&C courses? From your pics, this does not appear to be the case and as such it would appear that someone did some finishing work.
The course looks a little narrow in certain spots. Is that the case? Is missing a fairway as bad as it looks?
Thanks in advance!
- George
George:
I believe your question strikes at the heart of the "unfinished" and "lack of detail" comments. When the leadership of this course was different and C and C were actively involved in the process, I was priviledged to play some of the holes. At that time, there was significant fairway width and balls that missed the fairway were variably punished and nearly always found. I suspect, given the apparent significant financial stress the course is under, that the areas around the fairway are no longer maintained as many of the original visionaries imagined. Look, the course is built on an absolutely amazing property with a wide variety of topography and natural features. The original vision for the course would certainly have helped to maximize the confluence of amazing physicial features and great architects. When the original vision became blurred and the the leadership changed, some of the details that might have elevated the course to the highest heights have been lost in the transition. Back when I visited, I firmly believed that if the course had continued on its tragectory that it would land among the elite of all courses...perhaps among the best of the best. Now, many of the outstanding aspects of this course still exist, making it noteworthy and speciial...but there certainly is a fine line between very good and great and with the loss of vision, I suspect that some feel "great" was lost as well.
This doesn't seem as complicated as everyone is making it. C and C build very good golf courses. The property Dormie is built upon is absolutely fabulous. The financial times have lead to compromises that affect some people's opinion of the current product. I suspect that the current leadership is in a constant state of flux and that noone is exactly sure how to proceed in today's climate....how many courses will not be under stress with millions and millions of debt. The messages from Dormie are likely to be blurry and changeable...who would expect otherwise in today's climate.
Finally, I resent the implication that Ran is a disgruntled member and slanting his views accordingly. This is absurd, unfair and baseless. His reporting here has always been beyond reproach and he deserves more than the benefit of the doubt. It is shameful to imply otherwise.
I wish Dormie had been able to proceed under the original vision and plan...but it is, what it is. For the naysayers, the pictures do NOT do the property justice.
Bart
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One of my favorite golf courses in the world has been through the ringer more than a few times.
From the club's website:
"The club has been known by several names:
* Great Point Golf Club
* The Chatham Golf Club
* The Chatham Country Club
* Eastward Ho! Golf Links
* Eastward Ho! Country Club
* Eastward Ho Country Club"
ShXt happens. Perhaps the craziness will help long term. Is anyone going to pass up an invitation to Fishers Island because it burned down its clubhouse?
Course looks very good, would love to hear from others why it is better than Friars Head?
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A. Boy does this look like Hidden Creek
B. I believe we have a moderator who LIVES in Pinehurst....comments?
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Chip - you say it's a must see, yet most of us can't see it...............but were led to believe that we could..... that's why this thread went the way it went...
The pics are awesome, the course looks fantastic and I would LOVE to play it! As I've said many times before in this thread, thanks for sharing the pics.
Ugh. Why are we still struggling with this? Go there, and if you play then it is public(ish) and if you aren't allowed, then it is private. You have said 10 times that you want to play it. We all do if we get down there, but it is what it is. Who cares what the motives of current or former members are, or which phone answerer at the club actually has a clue....
There isn't a single person involved who NEEDS to give anyone the right answer on policy, unless they are talking to a member of the Dormie Club.
The pics do look great, but I feel as though it has a tough hill to climb when compared with Sand Hills (however I have not played either).
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Chip - you say it's a must see, yet most of us can't see it...............but were led to believe that we could..... that's why this thread went the way it went...
The pics are awesome, the course looks fantastic and I would LOVE to play it! As I've said many times before in this thread, thanks for sharing the pics.
Ugh. Why are we still struggling with this? Go there, and if you play then it is public(ish) and if you aren't allowed, then it is private. You have said 10 times that you want to play it. We all do if we get down there, but it is what it is. Who cares what the motives of current or former members are, or which phone answerer at the club actually has a clue....
There isn't a single person involved who NEEDS to give anyone the right answer on policy, unless they are talking to a member of the Dormie Club.
The pics do look great, but I feel as though it has a tough hill to climb when compared with Sand Hills (however I have not played either).
We are still struggling with this because Ran started a thread saying this course is open to the public. DC says different and apparently what is said varies by who answers the phone that day, and from where you are from, or who you might know "around town".
Why can't Ran comment on this thread and tell us why he told us it was public, when it is not.
To suggest driving 4.5 hours one way, just to see if they will let me play their course is ridiculous.
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s?
When the original vision became blurred and the the leadership changed, some of the details that might have elevated the course to the highest heights have been lost in the transition. Back when I visited, I firmly believed that if the course had continued on its tragectory that it would land among the elite of all courses...perhaps among the best of the best. Now, many of the outstanding aspects of this course still exist, making it noteworthy and speciial...but there certainly is a fine line between very good and great and with the loss of vision, I suspect that some feel "great" was lost as well.
Bart, you mentioned fairway width/playability off the tee. Any other details or points that got lost, and you feel have cost the course somewhat?
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Jim:
I have not been back since Fall of 2008.
I don't think that the fairways themselves are narrow at all. The area outside the fairway, however, was initially intended to be maintained in a way that you could nearly always find your ball and hit it. From the pictures and comments, I suspect that may no longer be the case. The course was originally envisioned to be walking only but that seems to have changed. I have heard from some friends that the bunkers on the first couple of holes don't seem to quite match the others...I don't know if I could have or would have made that comment based on the pictures here or if I would agree if I were to visit (I believe they were the last holes completed).
Clearly, the economics of our time affect everything. I don't believe that Dormie or any other club like it could be unaffected by the financial meltdown.
Bart
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Chip - you say it's a must see, yet most of us can't see it...............but were led to believe that we could..... that's why this thread went the way it went...
The pics are awesome, the course looks fantastic and I would LOVE to play it! As I've said many times before in this thread, thanks for sharing the pics.
Ugh. Why are we still struggling with this? Go there, and if you play then it is public(ish) and if you aren't allowed, then it is private. You have said 10 times that you want to play it. We all do if we get down there, but it is what it is. Who cares what the motives of current or former members are, or which phone answerer at the club actually has a clue....
There isn't a single person involved who NEEDS to give anyone the right answer on policy, unless they are talking to a member of the Dormie Club.
The pics do look great, but I feel as though it has a tough hill to climb when compared with Sand Hills (however I have not played either).
We are still struggling with this because Ran started a thread saying this course is open to the public. DC says different and apparently what is said varies by who answers the phone that day, and from where you are from, or who you might know "around town".
Why can't Ran comment on this thread and tell us why he told us it was public, when it is not.
To suggest driving 4.5 hours one way, just to see if they will let me play their course is ridiculous.
Thomas,
It is public. They just don't want YOU on the property. I played it last weekend with 12 buddies in cutoffs with a couple cases of malt liquor in tow...
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Jud - if it's public then you just conctradicted everyone else in the thread. Hence my comment that you hear something different depending on who you are or know. If that's really the case that they are public and denying access for no reason then that is discrimination
All I want is an explanation from Ran to this board.... I think we are owed that
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Jud - if it's public then you just conctradicted everyone else in the thread. Hence my comment that you hear something different depending on who you are or know. If that's really the case that they are public and denying access for no reason then that is discrimination
All I want is an explanation from Ran to this board.... I think we are owed that
Thomas,
Jud was obviously being sarcastic, Dormie Club is private and Ran owes us zilch/nada/nothing.
CPS
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Chip - you say it's a must see, yet most of us can't see it...............but were led to believe that we could..... that's why this thread went the way it went...
The pics are awesome, the course looks fantastic and I would LOVE to play it! As I've said many times before in this thread, thanks for sharing the pics.
Ugh. Why are we still struggling with this? Go there, and if you play then it is public(ish) and if you aren't allowed, then it is private. You have said 10 times that you want to play it. We all do if we get down there, but it is what it is. Who cares what the motives of current or former members are, or which phone answerer at the club actually has a clue....
There isn't a single person involved who NEEDS to give anyone the right answer on policy, unless they are talking to a member of the Dormie Club.
The pics do look great, but I feel as though it has a tough hill to climb when compared with Sand Hills (however I have not played either).
We are still struggling with this because Ran started a thread saying this course is open to the public. DC says different and apparently what is said varies by who answers the phone that day, and from where you are from, or who you might know "around town".
Why can't Ran comment on this thread and tell us why he told us it was public, when it is not.
To suggest driving 4.5 hours one way, just to see if they will let me play their course is ridiculous.
Thomas,
It is public. They just don't want YOU on the property. I played it last weekend with 12 buddies in cutoffs with a couple cases of malt liquor in tow...
Jud-Was the malt liquor consumed from quart or 12 oz bottles and perhaps more importantly were the cutoffs denim and if so were they cut above the knee or below the knee? Thanks.
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Jud - if it's public then you just conctradicted everyone else in the thread. Hence my comment that you hear something different depending on who you are or know. If that's really the case that they are public and denying access for no reason then that is discrimination
All I want is an explanation from Ran to this board.... I think we are owed that
Thomas,
Jud was obviously being sarcastic, Dormie Club is private and Ran owes us zilch/nada/nothing.
CPS
Why does he owe us nothing? If I came on here and told you a course was public, call them up you can play for $150...and you did just that and were told differently, then I think you would certainly want an explanation from me.
Dormie Club is apparently only private still b/c some irate member apparently got his panties in a wad b/c the club can't afford to maintain and run their business, and wanted to start a revenue stream from outside play....
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Dormie Club is apparently only private still b/c some irate member apparently got his panties in a wad b/c the club can't afford to maintain and run their business, and wanted to start a revenue stream from outside play....
You said "apparently". I believe you meant to say "I imagine". There's a big difference between uninformed guesswork and "apparently", although on this forum uninformed guesswork is apparently quite highly valued.
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Jud - if it's public then you just conctradicted everyone else in the thread. Hence my comment that you hear something different depending on who you are or know. If that's really the case that they are public and denying access for no reason then that is discrimination
All I want is an explanation from Ran to this board.... I think we are owed that
Thomas,
Jud was obviously being sarcastic, Dormie Club is private and Ran owes us zilch/nada/nothing.
CPS
Why does he owe us nothing? If I came on here and told you a course was public, call them up you can play for $150...and you did just that and were told differently, then I think you would certainly want an explanation from me.
Dormie Club is apparently only private still b/c some irate member apparently got his panties in a wad b/c the club can't afford to maintain and run their business, and wanted to start a revenue stream from outside play....
You're out $.05 for the phone call. Send me your Paypal info and I'll cover Ran. Perhaps the last thing he had heard is now untrue. That's happened once or twice before in the history of the world.
The only wadded panties seem to be the ones whose owner feels entitled to play Dormie, but is learning otherwise.
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Thomas P,
What Ran told us about Dormie was true AT THE TIME (he wouldn't lie on a public board...HIS board), but that was VERY BRIEF. The situation apparently changed very quickly from the limited public model back to the current private model....this was told here after Ran's post (apparently you missed it), so Ran didn't need to reiterate it.
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As the moderator of this site he should have made a correction announcement if the situation changed...why is this such an outrageous expectation?
I think someone in a previous thread suggested, it will be quite interesting when DC is selling $30 twilight rounds on golfnow
The attitude that dormie is portraying to me screams southern elitism at it's finest
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The attitude that dormie is portraying to me screams southern elitism at it's finest
Hate to keep picking on you but you're talking about is not something the club is "portraying" as much as it is an attitude that is being attributed to the Dormie Club by people holding forth on this forum. I have seen no official policies, advertisements, pronouncement, web sites or other material provided by the Dormie Club evincing any attitude whatsoever, good or bad.
Once again, par for the course around here lately.
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The attitude that dormie is portraying to me screams southern elitism at it's finest
Hate to keep picking on you but you're talking about is not something the club is "portraying" as much as it is an attitude that is being attributed to the Dormie Club by people holding forth on this forum. I have seen no official policies, advertisements, pronouncement, web sites or other material provided by the Dormie Club evincing any attitude whatsoever, good or bad.
Once again, par for the course around here lately.
I would love to see "official" policies as well, but again i think they change from person to person or depending on who you are. They probably can't afford to produce anything either, which makes their attitude even more confusing!!!
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The last time I checked, The Dormie Club is a privately held establishment that can publish or not publish their policies as THEY see fit and it's none of our business unless they announce it to us.
Incidentally, the Dormie Club has a fabulous golf course that is a real joy to play. It's plenty wide enough except at the one point where it needs to be narrow and that's the approach to 6. 14 is one of the coolest short par fours out there.
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The attitude that dormie is portraying to me screams southern elitism at it's finest
Hate to keep picking on you but you're talking about is not something the club is "portraying" as much as it is an attitude that is being attributed to the Dormie Club by people holding forth on this forum. I have seen no official policies, advertisements, pronouncement, web sites or other material provided by the Dormie Club evincing any attitude whatsoever, good or bad.
Once again, par for the course around here lately.
I would love to see "official" policies as well, but again i think they change from person to person or depending on who you are. They probably can't afford to produce anything either, which makes their attitude even more confusing!!!
Thomas,
It looks like you can contact the club here 910-947-3240 or here 6033 Beulah Hill Church Road, West End, NC 27376. I would consider your attitude before making that contact though or they will likely tell you to get lost no matter what their policy is.
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TP,
One request. If you do contact the Dormie Club directly, please don't mention the name "Golf Club Atlas". There are still a good many of us around here who would greatly appreciate that small favor.
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I spoke with Paul the pro right after Ran made his announcement that it was public. I was beyond courteous, respectful, and explained my passion for architecture and desire to see the course and if course happily paying any guest fee needed. Everyone knows what I was told. I never mentioned this website or Ran's post.
I'm sure I can call now and have the same response as I did then. However, once they really can't afford their bills again, they'll gladly take my money
For the record, this was the FIRST and ONLY "private@ course I have called to try and play. The only reason I called was b/c Ran said it was public. I've played 3 private clubs in my life
Brent - please read above
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However, once they really can't afford their bills again, they'll gladly take my money
Yes, beyond courteous...
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Eric - call Paul ogelsbly and I promise you he will ( if he remembers my name) tell you that I was nice and courteous in our conversation. Why wouldn't I be?
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This thread needs to die. Thanks for the great photos. Dormie is an excellent course and worthy of this group's attention.
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Thomas,
If playing Dormie Club is that important to you, you have two choices:
1. Save your pennies and join a golf club that will have you and make inquiries through the proper channels..
2. Stop whining like a bitch and perhaps you'll get invited to a GCA event at a private club in your area sometime...
You may think this is all Southern Elitism, but when you look up "why private clubs only allow outside play from certain other clubs via proper inquiry" in the dictionary, there's a link to this thread and your obstinate behavior here...
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Eric - call Paul ogelsbly and I promise you he will ( if he remembers my name) tell you that I was nice and courteous in our conversation. Why wouldn't I be?
Thomas,
I believe you that you were courteous on the phone with the professional. But then you took a swipe at them regarding their finances in your last post. Thus my comment.
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It's hard to not be frustrated at this point and from everything that has been told to me on and offline I don't think that's a swipe.
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It's hard to not be frustrated at this point and from everything that has been told to me on and offline I don't think that's a swipe.
Why are you frustrated? Do you really feel slighted that the information Ran gave you didn't turn out to be? You didn't book a flight and show up at the doorstep, you made a simple 5 minute phone call. Wishing/forecasting a club's demise is absolutely bottom drawer and just plain poor form.
Harping on anyone for your major inconvenience is laughable. But Ran? He's provided a sandbox for us all to play in and you'll sit here and blast him for it? Maybe Karma herself told you to sit on your thumb at Dormie Club.
Get over it and yourself.
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Man, everyone on this thread needs to take a deep breath. You're all reading a lot more anger into others' posts than intended, I'm sure.
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Chip, I'm hoping you'll come back and do a match play between DC and SH, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see it. Have you played Old Sandwich? My best friend absolutely loved it.
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You're all reading a lot more anger into others' posts than intended, I'm sure.
George,
I don't sense any anger here...maybe some wake up and smell the coffee talk...which is needed! The thread takes a nosedive when constantly putting this question about access and Ran's prior posts at the forefront. Chip's gone too, which is the worst part.
I know you like to put the calming blanket on us now and then, and oftentimes it is needed... but 21 posts out of 116 are the same query, on and on about the same thing.
Thomas,
There is nothing personal in my criticism, I assure you. But I wish you would just call Ran. Talk to him. It's not a big deal. Things change. All the time!
Eric
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It's hard to not be frustrated at this point and from everything that has been told to me on and offline I don't think that's a swipe.
Why are you frustrated? Do you really feel slighted that the information Ran gave you didn't turn out to be? You didn't book a flight and show up at the doorstep, you made a simple 5 minute phone call. Wishing/forecasting a club's demise is absolutely bottom drawer and just plain poor form.
Harping on anyone for your major inconvenience is laughable. But Ran? He's provided a sandbox for us all to play in and you'll sit here and blast him for it? Maybe Karma herself told you to sit on your thumb at Dormie Club.
Get over it and yourself.
I'm not wishing the club's demise, but rather the exact opposite; just not in its current business model. Presumably from all discussion, it HAS to go at least semi-private to stay afloat and I really hope they can get over their egos to realize this fact, and allow the public in and allow the course to flourish...
If I created a thread similar to Ran's, I would definitely come back and clear up my mis-communication to everyone...
Throwing karma into the equation is absolutely ridiculous as you don't know me at all
Eric - nothing personal at all, but why should I have to call Ran to have him explain a thread he publicly posted here?
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To all - I was never trying to offend anyone...I just merely posted on a subject I was passionate about and disagreed with a few. I'm done questioning the access, etc. I have a great weekend ahead, 2 nights of wonderful music and friends, and in the grand scheme of things, it's just one more course in the U.S. I probably won't ever play.
Again, no disrespect meant to anyone
cheers
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Great post Chip. Unfortunate these threads digress as they do. Looking forward to talking about golf course architecture one of these days.
I had the good fortune to play Dormie Club w/ Chip. Unfortunately, the camera shots did no justice to the course. What an amazing piece of property in the unique rolling sands of North Carolina. The people there couldn't have been more pleasant and as the course matures, it will be one of the best hands down.
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As the moderator of this site he should have made a correction announcement if the situation changed...why is this such an outrageous expectation?
I think someone in a previous thread suggested, it will be quite interesting when DC is selling $30 twilight rounds on golfnow
The attitude that dormie is portraying to me screams southern elitism at it's finest
Is every private course portraying "southern elitism" by making their own policies? Who knows, maybe their policy is to misinform...
Thomas....no one owes you anything. DC as an organization can make rules as they wish. Public on Tuesdays, public each day for only the 8:37 tee time, public for those whose relatives came over on the Mayflower....or 100% private. Ran hasn't done anything but apparently annoy you that you can't get a straight answer.
I'd like to know the answer too as I spend a fair amount of time in NC each year, but I'm not willing to call out everyone on the board for not giving me the information that no one seems to have, including the one that makes the site possible. If we chill out, the info will come out eventually...
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Chip,
Thanks for the pictures. I too am confused as to how this thread ended up where it is...it is a shame.
The course looks really good and, quite frankly, much more "finished" than I would have expected after reading some earlier threads. Did you notice spots that appeared to be "unfinished"? Was the detailing less, uh, detailed than what you typically see at C&C courses? From your pics, this does not appear to be the case and as such it would appear that someone did some finishing work.
The course looks a little narrow in certain spots. Is that the case? Is missing a fairway as bad as it looks?
Thanks in advance!
- George
George:
I believe your question strikes at the heart of the "unfinished" and "lack of detail" comments. When the leadership of this course was different and C and C were actively involved in the process, I was priviledged to play some of the holes. At that time, there was significant fairway width and balls that missed the fairway were variably punished and nearly always found. I suspect, given the apparent significant financial stress the course is under, that the areas around the fairway are no longer maintained as many of the original visionaries imagined. Look, the course is built on an absolutely amazing property with a wide variety of topography and natural features. The original vision for the course would certainly have helped to maximize the confluence of amazing physicial features and great architects. When the original vision became blurred and the the leadership changed, some of the details that might have elevated the course to the highest heights have been lost in the transition. Back when I visited, I firmly believed that if the course had continued on its tragectory that it would land among the elite of all courses...perhaps among the best of the best. Now, many of the outstanding aspects of this course still exist, making it noteworthy and speciial...but there certainly is a fine line between very good and great and with the loss of vision, I suspect that some feel "great" was lost as well.
This doesn't seem as complicated as everyone is making it. C and C build very good golf courses. The property Dormie is built upon is absolutely fabulous. The financial times have lead to compromises that affect some people's opinion of the current product. I suspect that the current leadership is in a constant state of flux and that noone is exactly sure how to proceed in today's climate....how many courses will not be under stress with millions and millions of debt. The messages from Dormie are likely to be blurry and changeable...who would expect otherwise in today's climate.
Finally, I resent the implication that Ran is a disgruntled member and slanting his views accordingly. This is absurd, unfair and baseless. His reporting here has always been beyond reproach and he deserves more than the benefit of the doubt. It is shameful to imply otherwise.
I wish Dormie had been able to proceed under the original vision and plan...but it is, what it is. For the naysayers, the pictures do NOT do the property justice.
Bart
Please come back Chip :)
Thanks for the info Bart. I assume what your talking about is the maintenance of the scrub directly off the fairways?
Chip: How playable were the areas beyond the fairways?
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I have heard from several people who have played it that Dormie is excellent, though along with Old Mac, I would add Ballyhack as a very likely need inclusion in the top 20-25 modern courses list.
But Jeremy, Ballyhack wasn't designed by Doak or C&C.
Unfortunately I have not played Ballyhack. If it is anything near as good as his redo at Old White, Top 20 should be within reach for Ballyhack.
Jim, i'd love to host a GCA group at Ballyhack. Drop me a line and we can try to put something together. I could use an excuse to head down!!!
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As the moderator of this site he should have made a correction announcement if the situation changed...why is this such an outrageous expectation?
I think someone in a previous thread suggested, it will be quite interesting when DC is selling $30 twilight rounds on golfnow
The attitude that dormie is portraying to me screams southern elitism at it's finest
Thomas,
My guess is your rants ::) ::) have increased the number of "Southern elitists" reactions you will get when atempting to play other courses (private and public)
....regardless of their geographical location
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I am curious as to how "southern elitism" is somehow different than the elitism one may encounter at Chicago Golf Club, Merion, Fisher's Island, etc.
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I am curious as to how "southern elitism" is somehow different than the elitism one may encounter at Chicago Golf Club, Merion, Fisher's Island, etc.
Southern elitism more frequently involves Bermuda grass.
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I am curious as to how "southern elitism" is somehow different than the elitism one may encounter at Chicago Golf Club, Merion, Fisher's Island, etc.
It comes with more charm and a better accent...
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Thomas, your comments about Ran and the Dormie Club and "southern elitism" may have hit a nerve with some GCA members, but you also need to understand that a lot of non-GCA.com members "lurk" on this website and could get the wrong impression.
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I'm really confused as to why it's suddenly wrong for me to state my opinion on a discussion board. If I think DC is portraying an attitude, I have ever right to state my opinion...
I grew up in the South.....so I also have every right to bitch about southern elitism all I want. I was done with this thread until being attacked for stating an opinion.
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Very well said Bill.
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Chip:
I am still waiting for the reply your promised me.
thanks,
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In an effort to get some clarification, I've talked to a couple of individuals that are involved with the Dormie Club and one thing came out of it.....
From Day One, The Dormie Club has been and remains a private golf club.
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I'm really confused as to why it's suddenly wrong for me to state my opinion on a discussion board. If I think DC is portraying an attitude, I have ever right to state my opinion...
You've chosen to repeatedly criticize in very strong terms a club that many people on this forum are familar with. How are you possibly surprised that you get responses which are critical of yourself in very strong terms? You have every right to state an opinion but you should not expect it to stand with being refuted by those who disagree with it.
Personally, if I were going to make as big an ass of myself as you've chosen to do on this topic I'd at least hope it were something worth the cost. I can't see how your interest in Dormie Club could possibly be worth what it is costing you.
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Wow! This thread is hilarious! Seriously.
I saw it orginally and read Chip's post and looked at his pictures and they are awesome. I am inspired to play not only the Dormie, but also more and more Coore and Crenshaw courses.
But then I left the thread for a few days and haven't look back at it until just a few minutes ago. WTF is going on? Read the posts again with a detached mind's eye. It is comical! :P
Anyway, back on track...
Is Dormie C&C's best?
Of course, I don't know. I've only played Cuscowilla, Chechessee Creek, and Sand Hills. But the Dormie looks great...but so does Clear Creek, Friar's Head, Lost Farm, Hidden Creek, Colorado Golf Club, Bandon Trails and Old Sandwich. I don't think it will go down as their best, as Sand Hills was/is so epic and such a groundbreaking and game changer of a golf course I think it HAS to go down in the history books as their best.
But from what I see, it looks like if you get the chance to play any Coore and Crenshaw course...you need to! They seem to produce quality golf courses...plain and simple.
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In an effort to get some clarification, I've talked to a couple of individuals that are involved with the Dormie Club and one thing came out of it.....
From Day One, The Dormie Club has been and remains a private golf club.
They did go public for a few days last month. They changes back a few days later. The decision to go public was one of the reasons why the superintendent left.
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How good is the course Jeff?
Is it worth it to make the effort to get to the Pinehurst area and play it?
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#
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I am curious as to how "southern elitism" is somehow different than the elitism one may encounter at Chicago Golf Club, Merion, Fisher's Island, etc.
Sarge,
We make things clear up North!!
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/cwetherill/SGGQyelLr2I/AAAAAAAAAho/wGklzCyh8Pc/DSC01866.jpg)
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I just read this thread. Jesus!
Thomas - please stop posting on this for one week and then reread what you wrote. Hopefully the week off will give you some perspective.
BTW - I heard Cypress Point is open to the public....just call.
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I would say the majority of private clubs will allow "public play." They refer to it as
"unaccompanied guest" play and reserve the right to decide who qualifies. Usually
sponsorship by a member or membership at another private club is enough to "cull
the herd." I suspect this is the case at the Dormie Club.
Not allowing unaccompanied guest play is the only true way to maintain ultra-exclusivity
at your club. I applaud and respect the clubs that adhere to this policy. It takes
a lot of discipline.
Thomas, I am sure you called and were polite and as friendly as can be. However,
lacking either of the qualifications mentioned above, you could be a cutoff wearing,
malt liquor in a paper bag toting, public golfer. No offense, but there are other places
in PH for these folks to play.
Join a private club. Its a wonderful thing.
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I would say the majority of private clubs will allow "public play." They refer to it as
"unaccompanied guest" play and reserve the right to decide who qualifies. Usually
sponsorship by a member or membership at another private club is enough to "cull
the herd." I suspect this is the case at the Dormie Club.
Not allowing unaccompanied guest play is the only true way to maintain ultra-exclusivity
at your club. I applaud and respect the clubs that adhere to this policy. It takes
a lot of discipline.
Thomas, I am sure you called and were polite and as friendly as can be. However,
lacking either of the qualifications mentioned above, you could be a cutoff wearing,
malt liquor in a paper bag toting, public golfer. No offense, but there are other places
in PH for these folks to play.
Join a private club. Its a wonderful thing.
Roger - Agreed with you 100% However, the small detail that makes Dormie a different situation is that Ran announced PUBLICLY, on this forum that it became public, hence my phone call. As stated previously, that was my first call to a "private" club that, as far as I knew, wasn't private at all, and had become public. It's not my personality to call private clubs to try and play their course, no matter how badly I want to.
Golf clubs taking the attitude that if you don't belong to another private club, or know a member of their club, then you're a "cutoff wearing, malt liquor in a paper bag toting, public golfer" is the elitism BS I've been talking about.
I wish it were that easy Roger....here in Charleston, there aren't too many options unless you were born with a small fortune. I think $75,000 is the cheapest initiation fee around here.
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I would say the majority of private clubs will allow "public play." They refer to it as
"unaccompanied guest" play and reserve the right to decide who qualifies. Usually
sponsorship by a member or membership at another private club is enough to "cull
the herd." I suspect this is the case at the Dormie Club.
Not allowing unaccompanied guest play is the only true way to maintain ultra-exclusivity
at your club. I applaud and respect the clubs that adhere to this policy. It takes
a lot of discipline.
Thomas, I am sure you called and were polite and as friendly as can be. However,
lacking either of the qualifications mentioned above, you could be a cutoff wearing,
malt liquor in a paper bag toting, public golfer. No offense, but there are other places
in PH for these folks to play.
Join a private club. Its a wonderful thing.
Roger - Agreed with you 100% However, the small detail that makes Dormie a different situation is that Ran announced PUBLICLY, on this forum that it became public, hence my phone call. As stated previously, that was my first call to a "private" club that, as far as I knew, wasn't private at all, and had become public. It's not my personality to call private clubs to try and play their course, no matter how badly I want to.
Golf clubs taking the attitude that if you don't belong to another private club, or know a member of their club, then you're a "cutoff wearing, malt liquor in a paper bag toting, public golfer" is the elitism BS I've been talking about.
I wish it were that easy Roger....here in Charleston, there aren't too many options unless you were born with a small fortune. I think $75,000 is the cheapest initiation fee around here.
Actually there is an option,you could MAKE a small fortune ;D ;D
how's that for a little "southern elitism" ;)
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"Golf clubs taking the attitude that if you don't belong to another private club, or know a member of their club, then you're a "cutoff wearing, malt liquor in a paper bag toting, public golfer" is the elitism BS I've been talking about."
I am unaware of any golf club that takes this attitude.
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Roger - Agreed with you 100% However, the small detail that makes Dormie a different situation is that Ran announced PUBLICLY, on this forum that it became public, hence my phone call. As stated previously, that was my first call to a "private" club that, as far as I knew, wasn't private at all, and had become public. It's not my personality to call private clubs to try and play their course, no matter how badly I want to.
Golf clubs taking the attitude that if you don't belong to another private club, or know a member of their club, then you're a "cutoff wearing, malt liquor in a paper bag toting, public golfer" is the elitism BS I've been talking about.
I wish it were that easy Roger....here in Charleston, there aren't too many options unless you were born with a small fortune. I think $75,000 is the cheapest initiation fee around here.
You are way off my friend. We don't assume you wear cutoffs or drink out of a paper bag... but you have to admit there is at least a slight risk that you are. If the club is financially sound enough to eliminate that risk by NOT taking public play... its a better club.
When I was an undergraduate at Cornell we used to hold our annual formal in Canada for obvious reasons (drinking age). We would put on suits and travel up there and call ourselves a "Young Alumni Foundation." The various hotels (every year in a different city) would fall all over themselves for sixty rooms and two banquets on an off weekend in early Spring. Had they known it was a three day fraternity party with folks ranging from 18 to 22 years old I doubt they would have let us into the parking lot.
This is the same parallel with a lot of private clubs. If you can afford to be selective... then it is in the best interest of THE MEMBERS to insist someone vouch for any non member play. We trust either an existing member or the GM/Pro at other private clubs. Even if the GM/Pro from
a semi private facility calls and vouches for someone... we allow that. Calls off the street... no way. Anyone can be polite and respectful over the phone. You can call that "elitist" but really we are just protecting our members and facility from cutoff wearing, malt liquor drinking yahoos. We have members who loosely fit that description but they respect the course and their fellow members. I cannot guarantee that from a phone call.
I am sure there are some great clubs in the Charleston area less than 75k. Their GCA might not be up to your standards... but if you want the best... you need to pay for it! :)
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Thomas, Others have encouraged you to give it a rest. Is there a reason you've chosen to ignore those recommendations? Ran announcing publicly is not an official statement. Why do you choose to treat it as such?
It's been clarified that the club did an about face on the policy. So be it.
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I wish it were that easy Roger....here in Charleston, there aren't too many options unless you were born with a small fortune. I think $75,000 is the cheapest initiation fee around here.
I played with one of the owners of http://sneefarmcountryclub.com/history.htm over in Mt Pleasant. I would be shocked if it is $75 K. I can probably track him down if you are interested. They hold a pretty big Jr tournament:
http://thericeplanters.com/
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Thomas,
There are numerous options for you in the greater Charleston area that do not require a "small fortune" to join. They may not be the courses/clubs that you would prefer to join if you had that fortune, but such is life, isn't it?
Charleston is one of those towns that warms slowly to newbies... especially if you are originally from north of the Mason-Dixon line. Think about it... the War of Northern Aggression did begin in Charleston.
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Michael- please enlighten me about the numerous clubs in Charleston that aren't expensive. And I did grow up in the south...just not charleston. Only in the south does a town have to 'warm up' to you.
Roger - that's why I don't call private clubs as that is not the right way to go about it. I understand where you are coming from but THIS situation with dorm was diff. It was announced they were public So i called.
Adam - I keep coming back in this thread as people couldn't stop attacking me personally.
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Roger - that's why I don't call private clubs as that is not the right way to go about it. I understand where you are coming from but THIS situation with dorm was diff. It was announced they were public So i called.
And it wasn't so who cares?
What a waste of bandwidth.
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Michael- please enlighten me about the numerous clubs in Charleston that aren't expensive. And I did grow up in the south...just not charleston. Only in the south does a town have to 'warm up' to you.
Roger - that's why I don't call private clubs as that is not the right way to go about it. I understand where you are coming from but THIS situation with dorm was diff. It was announced they were public So i called.
Adam - I keep coming back in this thread as people couldn't stop attacking me personally.
But Thomas, you've been such an easy target.
Criticizing our host. (Do you think GCA.com just popped up out of nowhere?)
Ignoring some well-intended advice.
Going on and on about something YOU established when you called the Dormie Club yourself - they don't take unaccompanied guests they don't know.
Subjecting southern elites to some slander, apparently - as you just revealed - because you were snubbed when you moved to Charleston. I've got news for you - EVERYBODY who wasn't bred and born in Charleston gets snubbed.
Failing to let this miserable thread - which started off so well with Chip's excellent photo tour - die a natural death. It stays alive because you won't let it die. It's like a Halloween movie............
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Bill- please see reply #119. I was done and the people starting attacking me, hence my return to this thread
And with this post I'm done....again.
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Can we move the last three pages of this thread to the "Sorry to bring up a sore subject, but" thread and start over with a good conversation of the merits of the course?
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I don't think it's possible on this forum any longer to have an extended discussion on any golf course purely on the merits of the course. Not sure if or when there was a Golden Age in which such discussions were common but it hasn't been that way for at least several years now. If a course is worth extended discussion then it's apparently worth a detour into name-calling, posturing and general bullshit.
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To repost one of my previous posts...
Anyway, back on track...
Is Dormie C&C's best?
Of course, I don't know. I've only played Cuscowilla, Chechessee Creek, and Sand Hills. But the Dormie looks great...but so does Clear Creek, Friar's Head, Lost Farm, Hidden Creek, Colorado Golf Club, Bandon Trails and Old Sandwich. I don't think it will go down as their best, as Sand Hills was/is so epic and such a groundbreaking and game changer of a golf course I think it HAS to go down in the history books as their best.
But from what I see, it looks like if you get the chance to play any Coore and Crenshaw course...you need to! They seem to produce quality golf courses...plain and simple.
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I've been reading this thread for the last couple of days. I have laughed out loud a number of times, even sharing some replies with my wife.
Thomas, what are you doing to yourself? Let it rest. The "big boys" on this site have said the same thing over and over, you're essentially attacking the founder of this site. The guy who gave all of us this tremendous forum....
Let this one die. You were wrong. Make an apology as your line of thinking for the last few days is nuts.
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I "visited" the Dormie Club Saturday. We drove by on the highway, from which you can see part of at least one hole through the trees. Then we turned into the entrance. It was only after going a couple of hundred yards and seeing nothing but pavement that we realized there had been a "Members Only" sign at the entrance, so we turned around and left immediately. On down the highway there was what looked like a construction entrance with a sign indicating that we should not enter. There was also a number to call for an appointment, which we did not do. Sorry I have nothing more to report. Oh, this was after playing the Southern Pines Golf Club for the first time. It's not a course that would appeal to the long bombers, but it is not what I would call an easy course either. For those interested in Ross architecture I would recommend it highly, and best of all it is open to the public.
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To repost one of my previous posts...
Anyway, back on track...
Is Dormie C&C's best?
Of course, I don't know. I've only played Cuscowilla, Chechessee Creek, and Sand Hills. But the Dormie looks great...but so does Clear Creek, Friar's Head, Lost Farm, Hidden Creek, Colorado Golf Club, Bandon Trails and Old Sandwich. I don't think it will go down as their best, as Sand Hills was/is so epic and such a groundbreaking and game changer of a golf course I think it HAS to go down in the history books as their best.
But from what I see, it looks like if you get the chance to play any Coore and Crenshaw course...you need to! They seem to produce quality golf courses...plain and simple.
Mac:
I don't know either. I've played only Bandon Trails, Cuscowilla and WeKoPa. Each of those was really, really good -- and except for a few design features that C&C seem to repeat in many of their courses, they were all quite different from one another, which shouldn't be surprising given how different the sites/topography/weather are for those courses. The reaction I had from these pictures (and just from these pictures, since I've played no other courses) is that I've seen them before in the Clear Creek, Hidden Creek, and/or Colorado Golf Club threads. Maybe that's because I'm not perceptive enough to figure out obvious differences just from pictures, but this didn't look great AND unique -- just great.
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I thought that the Dormie club was public.....
just kidding.
Cant wait to see the place though..the mere asking the question of this thread makes one want to visit.
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I'm a bit confused...People are raving about the place at the same time that the guys who are really in the know have zero interest in the place in it's current form...If it's a question of what it could be, then lets not get our panties in a bunch until it actually IS what it could be.
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Pfft...Like Ran and Jeff know anything about golf course architecture or The Dormie. :-*
Chip has played it and loved it. I'll take his word for it. And I NEVER wear panties!
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I "visited" the Dormie Club Saturday. We drove by on the highway, from which you can see part of at least one hole through the trees. Then we turned into the entrance. It was only after going a couple of hundred yards and seeing nothing but pavement that we realized there had been a "Members Only" sign at the entrance, so we turned around and left immediately. On down the highway there was what looked like a construction entrance with a sign indicating that we should not enter. There was also a number to call for an appointment, which we did not do. Sorry I have nothing more to report. Oh, this was after playing the Southern Pines Golf Club for the first time. It's not a course that would appeal to the long bombers, but it is not what I would call an easy course either. For those interested in Ross architecture I would recommend it highly, and best of all it is open to the public.
I hope you enjoyed Southern Pines Carl. It is still my favorite DESIGN and PIECE OF LAND in Pinehurst. Conditions are better elsewhere but until I play a course in PH I enjoy more, it gets my vote.
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And I NEVER wear panties!
That is not actually true.
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Sad to see Thomas is no longer a member of the board........
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Weird, wild stuff!
I guess he wasn't satisfied with Ran's explanation.
"All I want is an explanation from Ran to this board.... I think we are owed that" :P
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Sad to see Thomas is no longer a member of the board........
Is it?
It was weird....not Shivas' Cheater-Line weird but weird.
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Sad to see Thomas is no longer a member of the board........
Once you've burned every bridge to ever get a private invite anywhere, what's the point of even having a GCA user I.D.? :)
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Sad to see Thomas is no longer a member of the board........
Once you've burned every bridge to ever get a private invite anywhere, what's the point of even having a GCA user I.D.? :)
So wise this man.
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Sad to see Thomas is no longer a member of the board........
Once you've burned every bridge to ever get a private invite anywhere, what's the point of even having a GCA user I.D.? :)
So wise this man.
We need one more for the Dixie Cup? You think Thomas will play in that?
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Sad to see Thomas is no longer a member of the board........
Is it?
It was weird....not Shivas' Cheater-Line weird but weird.
I don't know Thomas personally or have any dog in the fight that was this thread, but I just didn't like seeing someone off the board before they ever really got started. "Sad" was perhaps a poor choice of words...
But then again it's not my board and it's not my rules. :)
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Sad to see Thomas is no longer a member of the board........
Once you've burned every bridge to ever get a private invite anywhere, what's the point of even having a GCA user I.D.? :)
So wise this man.
We need one more for the Dixie Cup? You think Thomas will play in that?
Maybe some of the guys who live in Pinehurst can make the 90 minute trek to play the Dixie Cup?
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With exception of Augusta National this might be the best course in the southeastern US and instantly in the top 15-20 in the U.S.
I had the good fortune to play DC this past weekend. I have thought about the course for 3 days and I simply must agree with Chip.
I think DC is as good as any of the 3 courses I played in Bandon in 2005. I certainly think it's the best course in NC or SC today. The undulations in the fairways are never ending, the greens can be huge (one probably 45 yards deep), the greens sit softy on the terrian, I hit every club in the bag, and the ground game is more than encouraged. It played firm and fast. I felt creative like you should at Bandon or in Scotland. I putted from 10 yards off the green, I hit low runners, chipped with 7 irons. Things that most courses in my area won't let you do. I would change one hole. One tee shot landing area or tee location (#8) and that's it.
It's really really good.
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Just another example of southern elitism.
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Just another example of southern elitism.
Hey, I did stop for BBQ on the way home.
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I got an email today from MidSouth club in Southern Pines/Pinehurst.
The Dormie Club will have an event this Friday, November 19.
It is called something like "Be a Dormie Member for a day" (I deleted it earlier).
The cost? ONLY $155!!!
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I got an email today from MidSouth club in Southern Pines/Pinehurst.
The Dormie Club will have an event this Friday, November 19.
It is called something like "Be a Dormie Member for a day" (I deleted it earlier).
The cost? ONLY $155!!!
That quite possibly includes a caddy and his tip.
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With exception of Augusta National this might be the best course in the southeastern US and instantly in the top 15-20 in the U.S.
I had the good fortune to play DC this past weekend. I have thought about the course for 3 days and I simply must agree with Chip.
I think DC is as good as any of the 3 courses I played in Bandon in 2005. I certainly think it's the best course in NC or SC today. The undulations in the fairways are never ending, the greens can be huge (one probably 45 yards deep), the greens sit softy on the terrian, I hit every club in the bag, and the ground game is more than encouraged. It played firm and fast. I felt creative like you should at Bandon or in Scotland. I putted from 10 yards off the green, I hit low runners, chipped with 7 irons. Things that most courses in my area won't let you do. I would change one hole. One tee shot landing area or tee location (#8) and that's it.
It's really really good.
Bruce - Remind me about #8. I can't quite picture that hole in my mind.
In your email to me the other day you mentioned that the wetlands that bisects the fairway on #10 is being pulled back to open up the corner for the second shot, per the original design. Is that area now grassed or is it still open ground under repair?
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(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/DormieClub/dormie08.jpg)
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Craig,
Does that hole play straight away or right to left?
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JC,
It plays right to left. At the bottom of the fairway slope you can see the back edge of a large bunker that sits on the corner where the fairway turns to the green. The front edge of that bunker is over 300 yards away - the hole plays between 450 and 470. The hole is a short-hitters nightmare. The drive needs to carry over the high slope on the right where it will receive a good roll towards the green. Anything short of the peak of the slope will run hard left to a spot from which you can't see the green. There has been talk about removing a couple pines on the left to open the view from that side. The photo doesn't show accurately how much elevation there is on the right - or how steeply it slopes to the left.
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Craig -Thank you, I remember the hole very well. Big par four (if there were any pars) with a long green that slopes right to left. Yes? I don't remember thinking there was anything wrong with the fairway landing area or tee location.
Bruce - What was it you did you not like about this hole?
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Who from the C&C team is on site doing the work? I suspect both Bill and Ben have spent a lot of time at Dormie given the Pinehurst #2 project. What else are they finishing up.
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Craig -Thank you, I remember the hole very well. Big par four (if there were any pars) with a long green that slopes right to left. Yes? I don't remember thinking there was anything wrong with the fairway landing area or tee location.
Bruce - What was it you did you not like about this hole?
Unless you are a BIG hitter, you get the right to left BIG slope and are blocked or partially blocked on your approach to the green. Or your really need to aim way right. I hit probably my best drive and didn't have a clear shot to the 50 yard deep green. Craig says it all above.
#10 wetlands was not finished re transition to fairway.
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on #8 you can sling it off the hill right to left if you can bomb it. if you get it going just a little left it goes left hard however.
i love the approach on #8. reminds me of the uncluttered approach to #9 at bandon trails and the green runs front to back sort of like Oakmont #1. i made a 20 footer for a 4, however i can't remember if was a par 4 or par 5. great hole.
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on #8 you can sling it off the hill right to left if you can bomb it. if you get it going just a little left it goes left hard however.
i love the approach on #8. reminds me of the uncluttered approach to #9 at bandon trails and the green runs front to back sort of like Oakmont #1. i made a 20 footer for a 4, however i can't remember if was a par 4 or par 5. great hole.
The approach was great to #8. The problem, imo, was either the landing area or the tee's location.
Chip, when I played there was no par on the scorecard. You could play it as a long par 4 or short par 5.
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Correct, Bruce. No par listed on the card. You just do the best you can and add them up. :D
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....Though flawed, later I will do a hole by hole match between Sand Hills and Dormie. I am sure Sand Hills will win, but it won't be a blow out.
Chip,
Any timeline on the hole by hole match between Dormie and Sand Hills? I'm looking forward to it if you get around to it.
Cheers,
George
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Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.
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Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.
Tiger, Cuscowilla is generally much more open, and the terrain a bit less abrupt. The greens complexes are roughly comparable. There are more forced carries from the tees. I don't recall a short par 4 at Dormie that was as interesting as either #5 or #12 at Cuscowilla.
I think Cuscowilla is way underrated.
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Bill, I have not seen the Dormie Club. As you know we have both played Cuscowilla many times. Thanks for the comparison. I do not see any real comparisons with Clear Creek other than close in time together. I was in the minority in thinking Clear Creek is a mid level CC while Cuscowilla is upper tier to me.
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Bill--
You didn't think that #3 at Dormie is a fabulous hole? Frankly, I think both 3, with it's incredibly cool green, and 14 and the way it uses angles so well, are both better than 5 and 12 at Cuscowilla. Of course, I may be in the minority.
Both Cusco and Dormie are outstanding courses. In a 10 round, it's probably 7-3 Dormie in my mind.
8 at Dormie in some ways reminds me of 10 at ANGC. You have to get a nice little going draw to get the sweet spot of the hill and run to the bottom. Hang it right, and the approach is off a stand on your head hanging lie.
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First off -- before anyone can go off and proclaim some course as the best -- one would need to know the exact listing of courses that one has played to date.
Frankly, if such a listing were less than eight (8) courses I would dare say that the research work is rather light.
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No. 8 was interesting in that 3 of the 4 players in our group hit terrific drives center left off the tee. Each caught the slope but ended up on the left side of the fairway having to hit a big hook approach due to being blocked from a direct line to the green by the trees on the left.
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Rory--
Interesting about your group on #8 at Dormie, I wondered about that. I played my drive down the right center, drawing it to the center and it drew down to the garden spot. You can have the same issues with an overzealous hook on 10 at ANGC, hence my comparison.
Matt--
My view of the best courses is always fluid because courses get better or worse in my mind based on multiple plays, seeing different hole locations, winds, firm/soft ground, weather. It's the one danger of basing a view of a course on a one-shot visit, the person visiting may miss the quality. I won't go any further, because it would repeat what I said in the GCA 100 thread.
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Adam:
You tap-danced around what I posted -- there's no question that multiple plays help.
Here's what you either ignored or simply failed to understand from what I wrote.
For anyone to say "X" course is above the others in a given architect's designs -- I'd have to know how many of such courses have been played. If someone answers they have played 3-4 and then drew such a definitive conclusion I would dare say the sample size is to small for that to happen.
The statement here is that Dormie Club is the best C&C course. Well, no doubt opinions matter but I'd like to know the actual sample size and the specific courses in that listing from which such a definitive conclusion has been reached.
Simple as that ...
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Bill--
You didn't think that #3 at Dormie is a fabulous hole? Frankly, I think both 3, with it's incredibly cool green, and 14 and the way it uses angles so well, are both better than 5 and 12 at Cuscowilla. Of course, I may be in the minority.
Both Cusco and Dormie are outstanding courses. In a 10 round, it's probably 7-3 Dormie in my mind.
I found #3 to be pretty one dimensional. Bash it up the fairway, the closer the better, wedge it on the agreed cool green.
By contrast, #5 at Cuscowilla (and #5 Friars Head for that matter) has almost unlimited options for dealing with the gigantic central bunker and the awkward green with its central spine. I really think #5 Cuscowilla might be C&C's best golf hole.
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I found #3 to be pretty one dimensional. Bash it up the fairway, he closer the better, wedge it on the agreed cool green.
Bill - wedge it onto the green within 10 feet of the hole but in the wrong location and walk off with a 5. But if you can drop your wedge within a 5' CEP, no problem. ;D
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Matt--
It looks like your beef with Chip's comment is that he has not seen the breadth of C & C courses to make the superlative comment that he did. Your point is a valid one and falls in line with my comment about having seen a wide variety of courses comment in the gca top 100 thread.
The only notable C & C's I have not played are Clear Creek and The Lost Farm, so with that in mind, it's my view that the Dormie Club is one of C & C's best efforts. It's right up there with Friar's Head (an absolutely fabulous golf course) in my opinion. I have tempered my comments about Sand Hills because I saw it with the wind blowing hard and helping on holes 13, 15-18 and the closers played relatively easy versus if they were playing into the teeth of the wind. It also made 14 play easier in terms of stopping an approach on that tiny green. I need to get back out there at some point.
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I found #3 to be pretty one dimensional. Bash it up the fairway, he closer the better, wedge it on the agreed cool green.
Bill - wedge it onto the green within 10 feet of the hole but in the wrong location and walk off with a 5. But if you can drop your wedge within a 5' CEP, no problem. ;D
That's why I place #5 at Cuscowilla higher. You can get in trouble a lot more ways there than at #3 DC, where placement of the approach is the most demanding shot.
"CEP" -- ??
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Bill & Craig---
Hmmmm. As far as I'm concerned, a double bogey is a double bogey is a double bogey. If the double comes from a four putt after a misplaced approach or from a shot into a cleverly place cross bunker that creates an awkward approach, it's the same thing. Both are great architectural devices and it's why both are wonderful holes. I find it interesting that Bill thinks the play is to knock it as close to the green as possible because I originally thought that as well. Upon closer inspection, I think that's correct only with particular hole locations. I definitely do not want to be really close to the green with a back right hole location or something that's far left, there's too much stuff to deal with on the ground and I'd much rather lay back and play a full shot to those hole locations. It's the beauty of cool short par fours, choices and decison making.
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That's why I place #5 at Cuscowilla higher. You can get in trouble a lot more ways there than at #3 DC, where placement of the approach is the most demanding shot.
"CEP" -- ??
Circular Error Probable - a useful measurement of the amount of inaccuracy permitted to demolish your target with a nuclear weapon.
Given the wild contours on the #3 green, correct placement of the drive can be a big help.
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Has the 10th hole been fixed, I heard there where some wetlands issues, if not when is C&C going to fully finish. Sounds like the makings of a fun course.
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Matt,
Good point. In fact, unless one has played every course a designer has done, such pronouncements have to be qualified...Is there still finish work to be done?
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Bill & Craig---
Hmmmm. As far as I'm concerned, a double bogey is a double bogey is a double bogey. If the double comes from a four putt after a misplaced approach or from a shot into a cleverly place cross bunker that creates an awkward approach, it's the same thing. Both are great architectural devices and it's why both are wonderful holes. I find it interesting that Bill thinks the play is to knock it as close to the green as possible because I originally thought that as well. Upon closer inspection, I think that's correct only with particular hole locations. I definitely do not want to be really close to the green with a back right hole location or something that's far left, there's too much stuff to deal with on the ground and I'd much rather lay back and play a full shot to those hole locations. It's the beauty of cool short par fours, choices and decison making.
These things are all relative, Adam. When I say " the play is to knock it as close to the green as possible.." I'm still not going to be inside 100 yards!
And Craig is correct, there is a preferred side of the wide fairway depending on pin location.
All things considered, I still think #5 at Cuscowilla - and #5 at Friars Head too - is a better hole!
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Matt,
Good point. In fact, unless one has played every course a designer has done, such pronouncements have to be qualified..
I'm a broken record on this, but I feel it bears repeating. This is a big weakness in GW's and GM's golf course rankings. Virtually none of the raters have played all the courses in contention. Yet they are supposed to rank courses, according to whether they are top 3 (or 5) in the country... top 15... and so on. As you point out, such pronouncements have to be qualified.
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Has the 10th hole been fixed, I heard there where some wetlands issues, if not when is C&C going to fully finish. Sounds like the makings of a fun course.
Roughly speaking, C&C finished the 10th some time ago but after the hole was completed and in play the DNR insisted that the fairway was built over part of the wetlands. They directed the club to dig up the fairway and recreate the wetlands (it's debatable whether there were wetlands in that area originally). The dig completely altered C&C's original design for the hole. After some discussion - and after the club dug up the fairway - the DNR relented and said that the original design was fine. The club plans to fill in the hole and re-sod in the early spring.
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Craig, I hope you are right this time. I know the club said they would do the work last fall and a few people even said C&C were doing the work already. It is only 3-4 days work at a cost of 35k-45k. Hopefully they will be in a position to do the work eventually to bad they didn't do it when they said they were going to.
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Jim:
Please do not misunderstand what I said -- one doesn't need to play EVERY course in a designer's portfolio or all the courses in contention -- but it helps to have a representative sample to begin such a process.
Jud:
Like I said above -- you don't have to play everything but the sample size must be sufficient to make hard and fast statements about overall greatness / lack thereof.
Adam:
Given your breath of experience with C & C courses -- what are your top ten in order ?
Enjoy seeing your listing and any rationale you care to provide.
thanks ...
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It's a pretty big hole to fill and I imagine there's also some drainage work to be done. Bringing in all the dirt would have closed the hole for several days when the course was in excellent condition and getting a good amount of play.
It's interesting that the original design for the hole aimed the fairway to the left of the current one creating a necessary carry over the wetlands. The left side of the fairway would have grazed the current 9th tee. It's ironic that avoiding the required carry by going r-l ultimately led to another required carry thanks to the DNR. Fortunately the right thing was done.
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Given your breath of experience with C & C courses -- what are your top ten in order ?
Enjoy seeing your listing and any rationale you care to provide.
thanks ...
This question just makes me chuckle. How in the world could one distinguish #4 from #5, etc? And more importantly, what is the point?
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Bill:
I like to see what people think -- if they wish to group them in threes instead of individual listings that's fine.
Certain people have particular areas of emphasis and having them rate them in some sort of order does help me understand what they see as the key priorities of a given course.
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First off -- before anyone can go off and proclaim some course as the best -- one would need to know the exact listing of courses that one has played to date.
Frankly, if such a listing were less than eight courses I would dare say that the research work is rather light.
Matt
Here are the C&C courses that I have played. From what I have read and seen, it seems like Lost Farm might become their best work (certainly according to Keiser's comments). I have not made it to Tasmania yet though.
1. Austin Golf Club
2. Barton Creek
3. Friars Head
4. Bandon Trails
5. Sugarloaf Mountain
6. Dormie Club
7. Hidden Creek
8. Chechessee Creek
9. Sand Hills
10. Colorado Golf Club
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Matt, I have played the following C&C courses. I'd put Friars Head at the top, but the rest are tied for second. I guess Barton Creek Cliffside might not rank as highly as some others, but I have played it a lot and really enjoy it, particularly the greens, at least half of which flow front to back. All the greens are just laid across the existing terrain.
Not in order per above:
Friars Head
Barton Creek Cliffside
Austin Golf Club
Bandon trails
Cuscowilla
Talking Stick North
Talking Stick South
Dormie Club
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Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.
Tiger--
I thought Cuscowilla was great, but I thought 14 was not....
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I would agree with Bill. I really liked Dormie Club, but preferred Friar's Head by quite a bit (Probably 8-2).
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Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.
Tiger--
I thought Cuscowilla was great, but I thought 14 was not....
Carl, what didn't you like? The wonderful cross bunkers or the wonderful green? I agree the tee shot is kind of boring, but the second shot decision, the shot into the green, and the putting are all first rate, IMHO.
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Bill:
Fair to say you have not played Clear Creek yet ?
Did not see it listed.
Also did not see Hidden Creek or Easthampton.
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Bill:
Fair to say you have not played Clear Creek yet ?
Did not see it listed.
Also did not see Hidden Creek or Easthampton.
And your point is?
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Bill:
Fair to say you have not played Clear Creek yet ?
Did not see it listed.
Also did not see Hidden Creek or Easthampton.
Sad but true. ;). Nor Sand Hills. :'(. How'd you miss that one?
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A great photo tour of the course can be found here:
http://sandhillsinsider.com/dormie/dormieclub.html
Enjoy!
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Played Dormie this past Sat. 36 holes. This was my first CC experience and really enjoyed it. I would love to hear everyone's opinion on the 13th hole. To me the hole didn't really fit the rest of the course. I will say that the course was a joy to play with holes that you could score on and really tough ones to boot. We played in a pretty steady wind of 20mph so I can say one thing it really kept your attention. The greens played firm and you could really hit some neat shots with the contours of the greens.
Lawrence
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I have not played the top C & C courses in the US so I can't really comment on the rankings, but I did just return from Tasmania. Lost Farm is a great course. Given the proximity to the water, I just have to believe that it is the best site Bill Coore ever worked with. It is the site he did not get at Bandon. So my guess that people who have played all the C & C courses will put LF at the top.
Two cool things I learned out there:
1) When Mike Keiser became involved in the project, he put Bill Coore and his wife on a plane to see the site (never sent the bill to his partner) and I guess the rest is history.
2) I heard this from an employee of LF: after several days of walking through the dunes and marrum grass, Bill Coore mentioned that he had not seen any tiger snakes. A local said: "you usually don't see them, but you will hear them, they make a barking sound." Bill Coore went white...
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For those who have played a minimum of five (5) C&C courses or more -- how would you place The Dormie Club ?
I'll be visiting there in the very near future.
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Matt,
When are you visiting Dormie Club? My clubs are rusty, but I would love to get together for a drink or a meal.
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Ed:
You have my direct phone # please call me or send me a message offline and I can provide that info.
Love to get together - I will also be playing at Tobacco Road too.
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For those who have played a minimum of five (5) C&C courses or more -- how would you place The Dormie Club ?
Matt
Here is my list, give or take a few ties...
Sand Hills
Dormie Club
Hidden Creek
Bandon Trails
Friars Head
Colorado Golf
Chechessee Creek
Austin Golf Club
Sugarloaf Mountain
Barton Creek
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Chip,
I am curious what you like about Bandon Trails that you liked it more than Friars Head? Or I suppose I could say what didn't you like about Friars Head? I know there are things I didn't care for at those courses, but am curious what your reasons are.
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I've played these, and rank thusly:
Bandon Trails
Old Sandwich
Dormie Club
Kapalua Plantation
Colorado GC
Cuscowilla
Chechessee Creek
Talking Stick North
Warren Course
All are after only one play, save for KP and the WC, with three each. I would consider all of those above in the "very good to great" level. The Warren Course only ends up at the bottom due to some less memorable holes, and I think as you move up the list from there we go from the lower profile courses to those that really hit you over the head with visuals and strategy.
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So my guess that people who have played all the C & C courses will put LF at the top.
Above Sand Hills?
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For those who have played a minimum of five (5) C&C courses or more -- how would you place The Dormie Club ?
My two sense having played it recently:
Sand Hills
Friar's Head
Old Sandwich
Dormie
Colorado
Cuscowilla
Hidden Creek
Chechesse Creek
Sugarloaf Mountain
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LL,
What didn't you like about #13?
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I will be playing Dormie and #2 in a month. How much credit does C&C get for the redo on their portfolio of courses? I have played #2 before and the pictures make it look like a totally new course. I can't wait to see it.
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Played Dormie this past Sat. 36 holes. This was my first CC experience and really enjoyed it. I would love to hear everyone's opinion on the 13th hole. To me the hole didn't really fit the rest of the course. I will say that the course was a joy to play with holes that you could score on and really tough ones to boot. We played in a pretty steady wind of 20mph so I can say one thing it really kept your attention. The greens played firm and you could really hit some neat shots with the contours of the greens.
Lawrence
Long hole, into the wind, wide open, slightly uphill approach with a slope left to right onthe fairway and green...505 yards... driver, driver, chip and putt...
noticed Chip left this hole out of his great pictorial
thanks